Transcript: Episode #146: Behind ASEAN’s Closed Doors (Bonus Shorts)
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Calvin Khoe. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:16
Hi there, and thanks for listening. If you're enjoying our podcast and have a recommendation about someone you think that we should have on to share their voice and journey with the world, I will means let us know. It could be an aid worker, monastic author, journalist, Doctor resistance leader, really anyone with some tie or another to the ongoing situation in your mind. To offer up a name, go to our website, insight myanmar.org And let us know. But for now, just sit back and take a listen to today's podcast.
01:06
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ha a good day.
Brad 01:41
And welcome back. Today we're going to be taking a look at the political dimension across ASEAN and the broader Asian context, comparing it to the types of political philosophies and responses that we have seen from the what focus that we've had on the predominantly Western responses to Myanmar. And examining the historical and cultural underpinnings of the situation in which we find ourselves. My guest today is Kelvin, I'd like to introduce, or rather, I'd like to invite Kelvin to introduce himself for the audience. So please let us know who you are and what you do. Hi, Brad.
Calvin Khoe 02:16
Thank you for inviting me. Hello, there. This is Kelvin Cole. I am the co director at foreign policy community of Indonesia. research and analysis. This is a foreign policy organization based in Jakarta, we are would be set as the largest foreign policy group in the region, because we have 100,000 people in our network and me personally have been heavily working on ASEAN, and others geopolitical stuff. My passion is about my passion is very heavily on Foreign Relations, and particularly my home region, Southeast Asia tax bracket.
Brad 02:59
Excellent. Okay, so obviously, we have a crisis happening right now in Myanmar, just to jump straight into it. And there has been a lot of focus on the actions that have been taken by individual ASEAN countries and the actions that have been taken by ASEAN, as a whole. And there's been a lot of contrast, people comparing the responses from ASEAN nations and ASEAN as an organization, to the responses from Western nations and the responses from the European Union. And it appears, it appears that Western nations and Western international organizations or intergovernmental organizations are more interested in direct intervention. And it appears that ASEAN has been taking a much more conservative approach, less direct, less hands on would you say that that's that's a fair comparison to make? Or, or is that a misunderstanding of the situation?
Calvin Khoe 04:00
Thanks for excellent questions. I think my value to be at your podcast is having a perspective from within Southeast Asia, particularly from Indonesia. So I will speak on behalf of not on behalf on behalf of myself, definitely. But speaking from the perspective of Jakarta, right. So I want to start with numbers. Me myself has been program coordinator for US and China survey in the past three years. This is a survey initiated by foreign policy community of Indonesia. And this is a survey that focus on how Southeast Asian sees China's but in the survey, I also asked in the past three years particularly about the Myanmar situations So let me just push the needles on the numbers. So I have questions on this your survey. The questions was, is as an effort to address Myanmar political crisis on the right track, right, pretty straightforward questions. This question is answered by 1658 More or less Southeast Asian respondents across seven countries, including Myanmar itself. So how the respondents answers to this questions, let me repeat the questions is our sales effort to address Myanmar political crisis on the right track? So the result is about the result is a little bit interesting for my right. So 50 percents set on the right track? 13% set, not on the right track. Okay. And then ASEAN is not attentive and responsive enough for 37%. asked, is too slow in addressing the crisis? Well, the 4% and I have no opinion for 18 percents. Right. The majority are found in answers of ASEAN is not attentive and responsive enough seconding to that is ASEAN is too slow in addressing the crisis. Now, how about the Myanmar? herself? Right, responding directly from Myanmar? Our friends? Definitely the majority says that ASEAN is too slow in addressing the crisis with 35 percents and 27% seconding. To that, is that as is not attentive and responsive enough. 17% says that it's not sorry, let me correct that. 27% seconding to the asset is too slow is not on the right track. I think this is a predicted sentiment coming from Myanmar. So what does the surfer is mean to all listeners? Is that here I'm talking from the leaders perspective, the leaders perspective of ASEAN is has been capsulated into the formulations of five point consensus. So everything about Myanmar should goes in principles of the five BC now profiting from the perspective of the grassroots, not much progressing, right, and not much progressing. The question is, the situation is very associated with the political we'll have parties involved in Myanmar. So I'm not talking only about the N ug or s AC, but also all the ethnic related groups, I think the political will is the dominant factors to push the progress in in the ground right. Now, the question is as just as is it fair of ascend approach? So, from Assam perspective, right. This is a bit complex answers, but the first principles that I want listeners knows is the difference of way and approach of other people are the Anessa nature of organization, but also as in terms of way it works that associated with our principles, but let me simplify as is. I said this not like too much posturing and also make a phone messaging. One about fostering we avoid a kind of photo op, a kind of conversation that bring to the public, which contains a lot of sensitive and ongoing discussion to the public, right. And we pray for how to approach this political situations in the, in the backstage, right behind the curtain. However, even though it sounds like there's not much, that's fantasy, it's actually not has a character of talking to everybody talking to advisors talking to photos, talking to best friends talking to everyone, because of talking so we can settle things, right. So that's how the other arms approaching Myanmar situation not only now, but also in the previous episodes of Myanmar situations. What Indonesia did, what ASEAN did, is always talking to everybody's, and I think this is the same approach that as currently doing and Indonesian government doing in the context of Indonesia's championship 2000 in 2023. So we talk to everybody who engage them, and then we avoid posturing in from the public eyes, keep quiet, and then push for progress. And the domestic actors as this as the star in the stage, I mean, it's better, to be Trubbish, to be seen, that the internal actors are the one who initiate although stuff, right, and the external actors, including ASEAN countries, is not a main actor, underground, but as the supporters and facilitators actors in the backstage. So that kind of approach that US has been doing and has been consistent in dealing to all such off political crisis in the region. However, however, we need also to recognize the situation's of trending in about transparency about public's demands more on knowings about the progress, public's demands more to be brief about every diplomatic movement, or public's demands more concrete results on diplomatic process, right. So that is reality on the ground. My observation, the government, I'm talking about the government of non Myanmar country, the ASEAN countries, including Indonesia, in dealing with the Myanmar situation, the government shouldn't be very, shouldn't be very prudent in messaging to the public. In one side, the government should make sure the ongoing discussion should be continued, the trust should be still gained from all actors in the ground. But at the another side, they need also to open up doors to more dialogues discussion briefing to the public, right. So never leave the public in the dark. We need to continue to update them about the situations about the feelings of the government. But at the same time maintaining a close communication with all partners in on the ground. So that's how the difference of approach in ASEAN and other principles and I think this would be very beneficial for the listeners is that this is a very Southeast Asian way of seeing with see Myanmar as a family. This is not about the jargons or about, about, you know, terminologies in good speeches no family means is that we can tell what we are really thinking about right? We don't exclude Myanmar, but without the LSAC Hey, what you did is wrong, right? What you does is not right. And we are here as an older brother, to see you and talk to you and help you to find a way out of this diluted situations. We should understand also the feelings of all actors in Myanmar and You GSAC and all the ethnic groups, we should understand them, and also talk to them, right. So this is the principles of looking them as family. And once you as a man, never as a once as a man forever, you are ASEAN, you are part of a family. So we can't add anything like you, Brett, you had you if you have sisters, siblings, or dad or mom, you're you can speak and you can speak into liberty to them about your feelings, I think that's applies the same thing and us and family. So that's how we are approaching to the situation. So we don't make a distance to them. We don't punish them with with sanctions with anything, right that very harsh, but we tell them the truth, even right now, you know that in the summit level, and the political meetings, Myanmar representative is now being banned. right to participate. This, I'm not seeing this as a form of punishment. This is a form of a strong signal to our brother, hey, you have you have crossed the line. And you cannot attend a political meetings, but you still can attend non political meetings. Permission to attend non political meeting is actually mastership still here as a brother, right? I want to still talk to you. But please, you know, you need to change your behavior. So that's the CME and you should know, the decision to ban too, to put out the political rap of Myanmar in a political meeting of ASEAN processes. That decision were made up in a very long process of consultation and discussion. Take about a year after that could happen. And that decision were made, right? Not because of too slow, but I see it as I'm trying to take the most prudent decisions on dealing with our Myanmar brothers, right, because the situation is so sensitive on the ground. So that's how I see it from the ASEAN perspective on dealing with the situation in Myanmar, and in short, the questions that you were asked that cannot be simplified, whether ASEAN being fair or not. But ASEAN is trying to be creative and trying to approach in all angles and what we should be admitted also, that our Pam needs to be needs to be reviewed and reviewed in terms of why the five PC does not comes into a very positive progress, right. So we need to review why that doesn't work. We need also to be more creative on approaching them. Yes, we did engage everybody. But we need also to be more creative to push the political will because I don't see the political will, or actors in, particularly as a see on the ground. So that's how I see it.
Brad 18:34
It's you open the door to to a few things. I mean, not to put it. Very depressingly, but when you talk about this idea of well, we're family so we don't punish one another. You know, in, especially in the Western way of thinking, what comes to my mind, is a village where you know, that your brother is an alcoholic, and that he's beating his wife. But you don't do anything to stop this. You just tell him we know what you're doing. We want you to stop. And then he cries and he promises that he will stop and then he does it again. And then you talk to him again. And then he does it again. At what point do we have to say this person is not going to voluntarily stop. We can't convince them with argument. We have to intervene, whether it means we have to call the police, whether it means we have to have them committed to rehabilitation, whether it means we have to get a psychiatrist whatever. We have to do something for the safety of the wife for the safety of the children, even for the safety of the brother himself who might be drinking himself to death, to look at the economic situation in Myanmar to look at the electricity crisis in in Myanmar to look at the refugee crisis. The country as a whole is degrading in terms of its capacity to function and people are dying in large numbers. So at what point Would would answer and look at the situation and say, okay, the death toll is very high. And the progress has not been sufficient. Do we need to engage more directly? Is there any line that will be crossed here?
Calvin Khoe 20:14
Thank you. Thank you, Brett. That's a very good analogy. So I want to invite the listeners and you to see us in two different preps. So the first premise ASEAN as a regional organization, and the second ASEAN as individual countries. So we have nine out of Myanmar right, and Indonesia is the largest. Now, talking from the first premise of ASEAN as a regional organizations, this is unfortunately to say, our hands is bind, right? We cannot do much. We are binded with all the principles that we have, I mean, binding and talking about a direct interventions, right? In kind of forms, right. This is things that you have been watching and have been criticizing on RCI. But if you see it on ASEAN in that way, so this is what you say, unfortunately, our hands are binded. So we can do much in terms of directly intervention and ask by the NA is not organizations that are designed to intervening in that kind of such situations. So that's I hope that listeners can understand. But ASEAN has a very strategic function to continue the processes of stockings, and also the processes of pushing the pushing and give pressures on every single difficult country, right, particular Myanmar. Now, I want to take the conversations to the second premise versus the premise of the inuvo countries of ASEAN. So this is the two presents always complete the one other complex features why why is that ASEAN is a leader driven organization. It's a very elitist organizations, it driven by the BAM individuals, the 10 individuals of leaders. And talking about the individual country. The Myanmar situations is now at the levels of how the leaders of them and the leaders of nine, accept Myanmar can expedite and intervene. As an individual country, I'm not talking about military interventions. But what I can say is that what we see in the public doesn't mean that the integral countries does not intervene could be politically to the domestic to sec for like, like me give you an example of Cambodian situations. In the Cambodian situations, Indonesia, Indonesia at the end, once the crisis of Cambodia fellas, we openly said we are intervene in terms of politically talking directly tells suggesting what should be set up to do and evil invite them to have a cocktail party in Jakarta to settle all the things that would that was an interventions of Indonesia, which cannot be done by other. Right. But then by Indonesia, as a big brother in the in the country and also supported by all the rest of ASEAN, particularly ASEAN, five, the founders of ASEAN. So I think the same thing happening also to Myanmar, right coalition long as the longest serving as our leaders, that still in the office, I think has a very, a lot of voices to Myanmar, including to Thailand, the most in my perspective, Thai Government is one of the most hurt by the SEC. And I think the prime ministers also talk, frankly, to the deficits of the Cambodian prime minister to the Myanmar, I think he also had a very strong tone to the leaders of SADC. And then from my Indonesian government, my government initiated the special summit in Johannesburg. So my president calls the rest of band including the SABC, hey, you should come over to Jakarta and sit down and talk about these things. This is interventions, right? This is an interventions of how we are saying directly and how we are pushing them to go into the right course, right? This is not a I'm not talking about a sending, I don't know groups of what to Myanmar and then pushing for something. This is the other thing. This is the intervention directly coming from the individual countries, in all means and all measures. From all the time the most loud and most consistent is Myanmar and Indonesia and Malaysia. Most of us are very strong. On SABC, right, even my foreign minister publicly saying over and over again, our our disappointment to sa s, AC and Myanmar, the Malaysians also did the same thing. Singapore has a lot of stake on economic stake in Myanmar, and I believe coalition law, so using his carrot and stick to Myanmar as well, to push something happening. So this game is really circled back to the political welfare states. And also the political rules of N ug and others. Right. What we can do is push into that way. What we are the minimum we can do is I don't know if there's a question we'll come up with sanctions of embargoes are so far that I think that would be too far. Okay.
Brad 26:18
So this is another topic that I'm very interested in the, the SEC. So most in the West, take the view that the SEC, because if it sees more illegally, it's a military coup or these sorts of things. Even if a Western Power does not recognize the new G, it also will not recognize the SAIC. It seems to be the position of ASEAN to say, Well, look, if we don't talk to the SEC, then we can't achieve anything. Right. We need to we need to recognize the SEC. But I wonder, Is there is there any sort of metric? Is there any measurement that ASEAN uses to determine legitimacy? does is it the position of ASEAN, that the SABC and the military coup? Are there legitimate government? Or is it just the position of ASEAN that they exist? They have power, and therefore we need to be dealing with them? What's the what's the perspective there?
Calvin Khoe 27:18
I think we are still far away from the discussion of legitimizing the amount of the in Myanmar. Right. I just want to repeat that. The invitations of all ASEAN meeting to the Myanmar authority is not a form of recognizing the SABC as the legitimate and legal government of Myanmar. That is far from that point, right. But, by the way, I'm not also referred to use the word of acknowledging SFC, but I see it of how as they're looking as ACS, actors that should be engaged alongside with the N ug, right. But talking about I see it here, legitimizing a thing is still far away, because there are a lot of steps to be done before we coming to that discussions, right. You know, 2023, should be their election year, according to their constitution. So 2000 and so eight or 18? I forgot. Correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't it? Yes, those are an eight right. 2013 should be the election. So I think next year is definitely could be the peak of their domestic political crisis. Right. How SAIC could comes to their promise on having the elections will definitely could be I don't know whether n ug can become best on that election on what kind of formulations of election that could be done in next year. But as is very abide to the law and norms, if now, let's say we recognize the current constitutions, right, I mean, the constitutions of the top seven, eight and even we asked, we asked everybody is there more? Is there any way out of the conflicting constitutions, right? We even ask because we want to be we want us to be ABIDE and going along with the rules that has that been made by by the Myanmar itself. Right. So the top seller told the pig in my point of view, and I think, as Yan will offer our best help to me Myanmar in conducting the elections, like, you know, Indonesia is a country with the, you know, we have capacity capability in organizing, hosting and conducting the largest election in one day, right? India has the largest election with billions of people. But Indonesia is the largest step conducted in one day 200 million election, or 200 million people to vote. So we have that capability, we can help offering a lot of facilities on, you know, supporting logistics, everything for the elections here. I believe that also become the one of the pointers in the meeting notes between my foreign minister to all the stakeholders in the market, which I believe also, we can we help them what you need. When do you want to have international supervisors, number five international observers, which one you are the union, you want to UN observers all I think it's better to have ASEAN observers or Indonesian observers with others as the country's observer, so a lot of steps will come into the discussion about the legitimacy and nothing election year should be passed first. And I think after next year, the discussion could become to the point or it could be another eight years to come to that point.
Brad 31:30
So I'm really glad you brought out the elections, because I'm not going to put you in the position of making an official statement about the elections, because I know that would be very politically awkward. But it is generally, the attitude of again, much of the West to discount the elections, because we have seen evidence of electoral fraud by the military. very famously in the 2008 constitutional referendum very famously in the 2010 election. And of course, most shocking was the 1990 general election, where the military lost, and in response to, after the fact and now to the legitimacy of the election, and an arrest of the leaders of the NLD, which is very similar to what they did in 2021. And the coup. So the likelihood, it is it is widely believed is that either the military will simply not allow certain pro democracy parties to be registered. Everyone has to register their political party currently, with the military controlled Electoral Commission, or they will allow them to register, they will allow them to contest the election. But then they will have many of their own people, government staff, police military voting, not secretly and voting on military bases, which they've lost. ballot stuffing, discounting certain regions, where they are likely to lose on claims of COVID on claims of political instability on claims of security situation and so on, and effectively manipulating the outcome, to give them sense, selves a sense of legitimacy. So there are a lot of concerns, and we can say, conspiracy theory, there's no evidence that this will happen. Yes, the international observers would be a very, very, very big factor, whether the military genuinely allows international reserves or not. Indonesia, as a genuinely democratic country, is in a very special position to be able to facilitate something like this. And we don't know how the military would respond. But is it? Is it generally do you think the view of our session that the elections, if they are held in 2023, and it is very likely that they will be held? Is it do you think, the view of ASEAN that the elections will be considered to be legitimate, and the outcome of those elections will be considered representative of the will of the Myanmar people?
Calvin Khoe 33:55
Thank you for that. That's a very good interesting questions. I want to talk about legitimizing the election, so I'm not, but I want to invite the listeners to think about this, we shouldn't be very rational in dealing with the need to be sober in seeing what are the options and processes that are now underground? Definitely the elections is one of the big process that in the ground and acknowledge by the SEC, they should college because based on the Constitution, and we should go to the process, right? Because what else, then I want to ask you guys, what else? What are the options if not going to that process? Right? What we can do is to help and make sure the process going swell and minimizing those kinds of what we are very worried about Again, this is a very domestic things on Myanmar. But I think as the unconscious as individual has a stake to say that the Myanmar government, right, here's the thing. I believe one country any thought of this, that claiming the legitimacy? Myanmar is a big country, right? Myanmar is not the second, a second or third largest by populations in Southeast Asia. I think non of a part of the parasitic every authority that claiming themselves wants public support. And there's no such authority. Why want to see their people suffering? And I think now, we are already at the point where the peoples are, has been, right suffering even worse than and I think this is the time, you know, to bow to both stakeholders, including, you know, the biggest one and GMDSS SSC the SABC pay to come up with your own formulation, how to find a way out from the situation? Right? You should come, you need to see it and find a way up. Right, because we've been very tired yelling from outside your, your, your your country is is, is a trembling. So, I think it should come from both sides. But the politics in Melbourne should also the authorities should aware that this is the time to talk and, and laid out what they want and find their own formulations, how to settle these things. All you want to see the people's way that people's become more sovereign, and become an yielding to another province would be what terrorism's what anthemic are a lot of things could happen for civil wars and what civil wars happened. That's that. And as an individual countries, other countries cannot stand still, you know, we need to act in the NSA, using all means that we have using all means that along with our principles, I'm not talking about the principle of non intervention. I'm not talking about that. Because as our country has been intervening to one another, by saying by advising by suggesting right, and telling what's good for the region. And I think I think that's the that's the the observation that I can share.
Brad 38:18
Fair enough. And so, on this, I want to sort of segue into something that that I know that you and I discussed the last time that we spoke. And this is more the historical underpinning, because it is it is very evident, regardless of how we might feel, it is objectively the case that the Western philosophy and the Western political approach, and the ASEAN philosophy and ASEAN political approach are different. They clearly view the situation very differently. And speaking of the culture of militaries, there seems to be a very different view, like automatic, different assumptions being made about militaries in Western nations and in in ASEAN nations, and not just ASEAN, but the broader Asian sphere. I know that Japan, for example, has had experience with militarism, I know that South Korea has had experience with militarism. There is a military in power currently in in Thailand. We can say to varying extents, that Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam, on the military systems, or we could say one party communist systems. Indonesia used to be under a military regime. So but today's democratic so what, what is the general view within ASEAN of the military taking over power? Is there a certain sense for historical reasons that people view this as sometimes good and sometimes necessary? Or do the people have a bad memory of of military governments and they have a immediate negative reaction towards them? What's the general interpretation here,
Calvin Khoe 40:01
thank you. Disclaimer, some thinking, not as a historian or as a expert on Myanmar or expert on really literary MC film relations. But I speak based on my observations as a person who studied Southeast Asia study during my school for three years, investing myself on Southeast Asia studies for three years, and now I'm working for almost seven years in as professional in international relations and building on ASEAN countries. Okay. So I see a military as a organization that has a feeling of procession to the country very much. So I'm talking in the context of ASEAN countries, particularly Indonesia, for instance, Indonesian military were born before Indonesia independence. So technically, my military organization were born before the country was born. And the military was part of the struggle and become the main actors of the struggle on my country independence alongside with our deployments and our fighters. So that's the point, the sort of feeling of ownership, the feeling as The Last Guardian, the feeling of the main actor that unites the whole country, and securing the motherland is the ministry. So that's is what I see and feel in Indonesia, how the military see themselves. Somehow they see themselves bigger than the country somehow, right. This is my personal observations. But in Indonesia case, my military were reformed by themselves within themselves. And they see the importance of professional military, that military focus on the order miniature first, not that they're winning on the physical universe, and the government should be civilian government and should be lead by civilians. So the government and civil military should be asked what should be so that Indonesia context, but I was invited to take a look on the Philippines take a look on the filters, the mooches is very strong. But they are on Thailand. Right? The military is very strong, and has the same feelings that the military is the last word and are an entity that make sure the unity of the country and I see this very much in Myanmar. I see this very much in Myanmar. Again, I'm not an expert of Myanmar. But I see this and I feel this in every my every my conversations with my Myanmar Muslim sisters, and look at all the lead in Myanmar politically, all of them have military background if an old sense of his father. So the military, I see this as the last word of the unit of Myanmar. And I think at this point, they see the countries in danger. That's why they need to jump in, in whatever others professionals recent reasons, but I see this in that way. I heard I heard. Yeah. I heard from the previous government. When my government approaching to the military leadership. I think it was back in I think it goes before the election. When Aung San su Kyi won elections for years, I heard Mike Galvin, talk to them, frankly, not about democracy at the beginning but talk about the the strategic interests of national unity, and my god one talk to them. I feel the same thing. We feel the same thing about the importance of national unity and wish share the same interests. And this is also resonate by the Myanmar leadership of military that yes, the unit is so important for us. That's why the military should be always be in that. Okay, that's how they do it. That's how they feel. And so we need to understand this nature of the military as an organization's and how the military civilian relationship in Myanmar. That's why we cannot never, ever to discount the military factor in the military should be the solutions and a way out in today's situations. It's not about making a new military unit now. But the current military regime, they should be, in fact, as also the solution in the future of Myanmar, because this feeling is become a part of the DNA. Right. You know, I asked my friend in Myanmar, I asked him, I asked him one question, which this question is very associated with Indonesian community? The question was, hey, is there any feelings of parents that the parents wants to see their kids to be military officers? Because if your kids, son or daughter become a military officers, it will, you know, provide your family with non economic voluntee careers, but also social status? And my, my mirrors brother said, Yes, it was, but I don't see it right now. But when there is, I apologize, I feel that happening in a lot of Myanmar's parents that wants to see their kids and their kids to become a military officers are becoming civil servants. That's also happening here in Malaysia. So these two examples of the same feelings of how the military is playing a very, I would say a very strategic role in operations of state is we came up this.
Brad 47:34
And so this sort of leads us to a topic that I know that you have a lot of views on, I know that you want to sort of dispel this narrative. Because even you coming from that Indonesian perspective, a democratic country, you have this perspective of militaries as, as as intrinsic to the state, and very, very powerful organizations and organizations that have the potential for good. And there is, among Western commentators, a very strong narrative that ASEAN is fundamentally divided between the predominantly militarist and dictatorial continental ASEAN countries, Myanmar, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, and the predominantly more democratic insular countries, like Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Philippines Brunei is obviously a sort of special case. So what is what is your perspective on this idea that that ASEAN is fundamentally two different things the more dictatorial militaristic continental ASEAN and the more democratic more liberal Island ASEAN?
Calvin Khoe 48:49
Thank you, you know, what ASEAN is the most diverse regional organization in the world? Tell me what organizations have internal nation that has a full fledge democracy like Indonesia, you have a Viet, you have a communist state country like Vietnam, socialist communist, you have Islamic soulmate countries like you may you have a monarchy like Thailand, sultanate democracy, like there's no such thing other than as So, as by the, from the beginning, already diverse. But what unites us the feeling of wanting to be independent and having a strategic autonomy and not having some One big asking and pointing out what we should do that feeling unites us and help us to create a lot of principles assets of Tality a treat the empathy of corporations nuclear zone with a free zone of nuclear so on and so forth. So, however, I also acknowledge that right now, today's is sad new flow countries are very hard to come into a solid positions on political issues we are not that easy. And yes there is a strong differences on how those times see the politicals events or episodes in in the world or in East Asia or you can say in the Indo Pacific. Yes, we did acknowledge that. But regardless of that, in terms of Myanmar, I think, all time all mine wants now motors. Why? Because Myanmar is part of the ASEAN part of the family. And if Myanmar get worsens, it will affecting the rest of the night. All could be the rest of the time with him or less in the future with the namaste the future time. That's all I can say. The Division is there. But the Agile principles and processes are working every year. I can be different today. But tomorrow, I'll see you to talk that's a good thing you know, the differences is there. And then the Talking is continuous. So as it cannot be simplified, my both Democratic and non democratic countries cannot simply progress that cannot be simplified because of that division will be different. As for flexible project, Indonesia, and also ASEAN, economic Cambodia, Laos, looking definitely different. Like my Cambodian friend says that, you know, Cambodian championship this year, they feel they have a better understanding on Myanmar, compared to the Indonesian because they are closer by nature of closer by culture. They understand the the not only the culture, but also the way of life of the Myanmar people. They said maybe Myanmar has a better chance to be malicious. That's what my Cambodian friend said. But the feeling the second, the Cambodian said, Hey, Myanmar getting worse. And it's also bad for for us as Cambodian, but also for the region, also for you, Indonesia. So that's why let's work together in a different way and approach how to sample this. So I think in terms of angle of the Myanmar should be simple. And find a way out is I think the interest of all banks, they just all nine, but the difference is lies on the way and approaches. And and I think everyday we working on how to find the commonalities. So that's a good thing. We always talk about commonalities, despite of our differences, and acknowledge that we have a differences. Fair enough.
Brad 53:58
Fair enough. And so moving to the end of our discussion, let's let's open it up a little bit. And let's talk about the relationship that China has to this whole situation. I mean, ASEAN, ASEAN seems to have a very strong connection to China, China has a very strong connection to ASEAN. taken collectively, they are they are the two biggest fish in in the Asian sphere. So it makes sense that they would have strong ties. And China has also been heavily involved in Myanmar. It has been involved in the crisis in Myanmar. So how do you how do you see this do you see us and China as collaborating potentially down the road and forming a unified front to try and bring a resolution to the Myanmar and try and try to facilitate the peace process? Or do you see China and ASEAN as as basically doing their own independent policies when When it comes to this crisis,
Calvin Khoe 55:01
so first point, I appreciate China always consult with us, as in terms of Myanmar, because they do also respect how to solve Myanmar is through the five point consensus through the ASEAN processes. So that formerly in terms of policies, that I can really appreciate the China. Yes, we are very close with China. I think we're the closest is between ASEAN and China is, I think, coming by by nature, because we have been bothered with the 4000 years, more than 1000 years, and our trade is so close and our job, our geographic location itself, approximately is so close. So I think it's become by nature's we're very close. But in terms of seeing China and Myanmar or you would mean the SAR collaborating you know, this is something that I cannot be commented with, because what I know that China also maintain communication with everybody's they're just like what ASEAN does? So I cannot see it that they are leaning much more on SEC are not living to the end UTM I cannot say about that. But I want to speak on behalf my survey so on US and China. So we ask questions. Has China rules with regard to Myanmar political crisis been contributing positively to us and efforts in addressing conflict? That's my questions and answers is that 46% says, Not clear. Not clear. And 19%. And 19% says no, 20% says no opinion and plenty, only 13% said yes. So as an escape asset is a bit in the dark in housing. China's role on Myanmar, I think that's a fair conclusion. But let's take a look how the Myanmar people assess to see that question. So 47% says not there as well. 50 Pacific and both 15% are sharing the same number says yes and no. on how they see China plays underground. So I think fair to say, as an people, most of them, most of them in ASEAN peoples assumes not clear assumptions on how to see China's rose memory situations. But I do also ask another questions. But we need also to acknowledge that Myanmar location is a sits in a very strategic important to China. Why? Because Myanmar sits directly to Indian Oceans. And I know that China has an interest to have direct access to Indian Ocean map by circling around the Malacca Strait. I know Myanmar has that strategic interest of China. And and I know China also has a lot of economy stake in Myanmar. That's why I think China tried to maintain all contexts and in terms of legitimizing in terms of leanings, in terms of legitimizing the policies. I think China will never fall away from us. Mmm.
Brad 58:25
Interesting. And I don't know if you can really speak on this. I know your focus is is more towards the relationship with with China. But you've mentioned the strategic impact of Myanmar and getting around the Strait of Malacca is is a huge motivating factor for China. The potential for an embargo across ASEAN is something that I know China has been very aggravated by in the past. And Chinese conflict with some ASEAN member states, particularly Philippines, Vietnam through through the controversy in the South China Sea has driven the need for a more westerly passage. But this This, in turn, will certainly raise eyebrows among the Indians, who would be very concerned with Chinese naval capabilities so close to their Eastern to their eastern border particularly when on their west they have Pakistan a hostile country who is also allied to China is there is there any sort of interaction going on between India and ASEAN to your knowledge to also try to resolve the Myanmar crisis?
Calvin Khoe 59:36
What I know India is a country that should be consulted by ASEAN in terms of Myanmar as well right. I mean, India into terms of geographic proximity to Myanmar, and also in the isapres to is to look to the threat that their policies have looked at East or I think it is a significant amount of tools to become assaulted. But as I think the communication is going on, and also I think, New Delhi and also Jakarta, I think back and forth also talking about ASEAN, talking about Myanmar number situations and I think they're also actively advising us on how to deal with Myanmar.
Brad 1:00:23
So then what, what I would like to do at this point is just to invite you to leave our listeners with any thoughts about what we've discussed today or, or other topics, which you would like them to consider and to mull over as they go about their day.
Calvin Khoe 1:00:38
Okay. So listeners, this is Calvin from Jakarta, Indonesia, what I would like to say, particularly if you are coming from the side of the world, that trying to understand Southeast Asia and Myanmar, we feel the same thing as you which is our frustrations on what's happening on the ground. We wants to save life we wants to make the Myanmar becoming well functions government as we as it was, and if more thriving, we want as Indonesians I want to see democracy florists in Myanmar. But please never and do not discount as NFR as a Snap standstill, as is not just sit down and watch we we do in a way how we do it. And please give us trust. I'm not pleading, not pleasing Allah pleading but just want to say we also doing something that's something we do something to push the needles. So please discount please do not discount ASEAN efforts. But please continue Korea design criticizing us discontinue give common suggestions right and just believe on the process and belief on the course. We are maintaining the good course and meeting in the right amps which is the final, final final leeway on the situation in Myanmar. And I want to say also thank you to all the sympathy and also support to Myanmar brother and sister. I think they need our constants and continuous support. To them. I think activities like insight Myanmar podcasts, and also that the boomer thing you did a very excellent shot. So that's it, Brad, thank you. Thank you for listening to.
Host 1:03:11
Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode in full. And if you've gotten this far, then you've heard much of what this important guest has to say. And if you found their story of value, please consider taking a further step beyond just being a listener and becoming an active supporter. Any donation you provide is now going to support the democracy movement in Myanmar to help those being impacted by the current crisis. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and medium missions. And in those local communities you need to post donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by a nonprofit mission that any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause and both websites accept credit card. You can also give via PayPal go into paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled DTRBUR n a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar, available at a local crafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's a local crafts spelled a LOKCR a ft s one word, a local crafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.