Transcript: Episode #147: The Urban Village
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Jesse. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
Gmail, Gmail dot o we love your Hong Kong Deployer. Don't maneuver the auditor. Maneuver the audit. If this is your first time listening to our podcast welcome. Programming brings a diversity of voices connected to me and Mark to share their perspectives, thoughts and reflections about what has been happening there since the military coup in 2021. All of our guests share one thing in common, a deep personal stake in the ongoing crisis. And it is an honor for us to be able to bring their voices into your earbuds. But however difficult it may be to hear some of their stories. We hope that you will come away with a deeper and more nuanced understanding of what is happening there
00:59
is there
01:10
any other way Lilly that are they gonna have a good day today? At least?
Host 01:43
Really excited to have the conversation that we'll be following with Jesse fino in Minneapolis, he has quite a story to tell about his own life and how that's intersected with Korean culture. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing where this goes. So Jesse, thanks so much for finally taking the chance to join us and sit down and chat a bit about your life and work.
Jesse Phenow 02:05
And I'm humbled and honored my friend. I'm not sure I'm worthy of a full podcast episode. But I'm excited to chat, that's for sure.
Host 02:14
Yeah, I am, too. You know, I saw well, we'll get into your whole story later. But just to give a little bit of background, I saw your account, your Instagram account and the representing the organization you have in Minneapolis, St. Paul, urban village, I was so fortunate to get a chance to visit there last month and to meet you and see the work you're doing. It's so unique and so needed at the time. We'll get into how you built all of that. And let's actually get into that now let's start where it all began. If you can share a bit about yourself your life story where you came from and get a give the audience a picture of who you are before you came in contact with members of the current community. They're in Minnesota.
Jesse Phenow 02:57
Yeah, definitely alive. Well, I feel like the appropriate place to start would be I'm the son of rich and Jodie fino. And it has just been the absolute honor and privilege of my life to to be called there's they are two phenomenal parents, I grew up in a suburb of Minneapolis, called Richfield and rich fields a pretty cool place. It's very, it's a very diverse city, both ethnically and economically and, and so that's kind of where my my upbringing takes place. And, and just a lot of really rich experiences there and had a very amazing and diverse group of friends. And then eventually, after high school, I would go on to a university, actually still in the Twin Cities called Bethel. And Bethel University was a good place for me, and that I was kind of pursuing football and that was a good fit. But also, it's a pretty conservative place. And you know, it's also very white and very affluent. And so, for me, it was just, at times hard to kind of reconcile some of those conservative values with, you know, I think the experiences and relationships that I was accustomed to having and so I really struggled actually at Bethel and just felt like yeah, it wasn't the safest space for me and some of my values and beliefs and so I'll save the law. long story, but basically I ended up started or starting to volunteer with a refugee resettlement organization. While I was a junior at Bethel, and, you know, full disclosure, I think I signed up to be a volunteer thinking, you know, gosh, I'm, I'm going to be able to help some recently arrived refugees. And you know, I'll be the, the friend and ally and welcomer that that they've been needing. And so I went to my very first session of volunteering, where I was tasked with kind of coming alongside a newly arrived family from Myanmar. And I walked up to the front door of the house and knocked. And as the door opened, and I was embraced, I found out almost immediately that I had the completely wrong narrative. And then this family, you know, they didn't need me in, you know, in fact, in a lot of ways, I was the welcome mat, the welcomer. And so I think just that families, posture, and sense of welcome, was something that I desperately needed and hadn't really experienced before. So fast forward. I mean, I, at this point in time, I don't even think I can point out Myanmar on a map for you. I come to learn that this family is an ethnic minority from Myanmar, and they identify themselves as Karen, or as they would say, in their language, Knyaw. And so it was just, you know, a really kind of beautiful friendship started as a friendship, I would go visit them once a week on Sundays, we would, you know, eat khanjar food together. And at this time, you know, no one's speaking English in the family. So we're kind of just doing hand motions and smiling and laughing a lot at our attempts to communicate. But they have seven boys in their family. Like the kind of the first language that we really spoke was that of wrestling matches. And so we we really, yeah, I think just kind of hit a stride in our friendship over that first year together. And then, you know, I think, as time went on, I just my proximity and connection to this family really sparked just curiosity in me and I wanted to know more about, you know, hey, what's going on in Myanmar? Why are there you know, these refugee camps in Thailand, and so I ended up doing my senior thesis, thesis paper in college on just kind of a conflict and history of the Korean revolution in Myanmar. And so that was just, uh, I think kind of brought, you know, our relationship a layer deeper and, you know, I, towards the end of my senior year wasn't really sure what I wanted to do with my life and where I wanted to get into so actually just decided that, hey, I'm pretty interested to learn a little bit more about these people that I really cared deeply for. I think I want to go to Thailand and and maybe then eventually into Myanmar. So I bought a one way ticket just a couple months after I graduated and ended up in a city in Taiwan known as Mesa and for anyone who is familiar with, you know, kind of the history of the Korean revolution. This is just a really important city with a lot of history. And so I spent a good chunk of time in Mesa. I traveled up and down the border, got to, you know, kind of sneak into the refugee camps and hang out with some friends that I had made. And then eventually, that led me into sneaking into to Myanmar for the first time and going to stay inside Um, Korean villages that, you know, were where my friends had family. And that was just a really life changing experience, I think because for the first time, you know, the relationship that I had with this Kenyatta family back in Minnesota, there was finally some some cultural context to things that maybe previously had prepared perplex me just about how they lived and how they acted and elements of their culture. Being immersed in their homeland, I think just really gave me this kind of aha perspective. And not that I understood everything. But you know, for example, I think, I remember the very first time I went to go visit this can your family and and I saw this, you know, of course, in Minnesota, it's snowing and cold. And I saw this big red splotch in the snow. And I thought, oh, no, man, maybe someone's like bleeding in the house, because there's just all these drips of red in the snow, and it was right by the door. So I really confused me for a long time. And then I went, you know, to Thailand and Myanmar for the first time. And I realized, Oh, that was that was done on that. Everyone, right, and spits Battle net. And when you spit it in the snow, it kind of looks like blood. And just things like that, that oh, man, this, you know, this, these connections started to make more and more sense. So anyway, fast forward. Again, I'll kind of try to cruise my way through this. But I came back from that initial trip and just felt like, you know, our relationship got that much more intimate between this family and I and then kind of threw this family into the broader can your community in Minnesota. And at this time, I started working at job that where I was doing mental health services with a lot of Kenyatta and Karenni families in Minnesota. And yeah, long story short, I was working this job. I was living in my parents basement, this canyon family that I was close with was, was in a really bad, you know, kind of slumlord situation. And finally, are just kind of asked, Hey, would you be interested in you know, buying a house together? I don't think I can afford a house on my own. And no, it seems like this might be a good situation for you to get out of. Would you be interested in going in on a house together? And so they said, Yeah, and we looked for house and we bought an up and down duplex in East St. Paul, which is kind of the heart of the Kenyatta community. And we've been living there since 2018. And it's just been a ton of fun. You know, we kind of have this open door policy where the boys spend a bunch of time downstairs with me, and I'll come up for dinner and lunch sometimes and just a really beautiful journey from friendship to what I would describe now as kinship. And yeah, that that kinship has transformed my life. And, yeah, I think kind of a last thing to cap off this story is that maybe a year into living together in this house. There's this old abandoned bar, kind of at the end of our street that we just saw this For Sale sign on, and we kept driving by kept driving by it. And eventually, we just inquired about it, and got some really amazing, generous help from some friends and bought it and then started this nonprofit that we've since called the urban village and the urban village exists to accompany Koran and currently youth as they embark on a journey of connecting, healing and launching. And yeah, we have been around since 2019. We have I kind of this community space, as you know that we've filled with Koran and chrony art and, you know, different cultural items and artifacts and books and things like that. And we just try to share space really well. And then we have a handful of programs that we run on top of that. So gosh, it's been a ride. And it's just been a ton of fun. And in a transformative, I'm super, super grateful to kind of have been on that journey and ended up where I am. To me.
Host 15:43
That's, that's great. That is, that has to be a record for just having 10 minutes to summarize such a full life story in such a an easy to follow way, that's just like a complete picture of all the parts we can now break down and really beautiful to hear that progression from from one end to the other. And just to go back through that life story that you talked about and ask some questions at the different marks and points to flesh out some of the things that you said, just starting first, I mean, your first interaction with Kenyatta people was when you were a junior at this conservative college and wanting to to be an allied for them. And you didn't use this word. And I don't know if this word is, is quite appropriate to what you were thinking. But it struck me that you had a sense before meeting them with perhaps being something of a white savior, wanting to swoop in and help them and perhaps feel something about yourself as you were you were serving these poor immigrant people. And instead, you commented that the first interaction upon meeting them was that Oh, actually, I'm the one who needs them. And I wanted to ask about why you felt that way. What when you say you needed them when you when you met them, and you felt that you had this attraction towards them, or they had something that you needed, or they had something that helped you to grow and to, to feel something or be something more? What was it exactly that you needed? What what did you see in them, meeting them that first time? And then over the weeks and years that followed? What was it that you were gaining from them and growing in ways that you didn't even realize at the time?
Jesse Phenow 17:28
Hmm, man, Joe, you asked great questions, my friend and thank you cash. Yeah, I think, you know, as I reflect on that moment, I just really didn't know what I didn't know. And, and I think, you know, you can attest to this as well. When you get proximate, to someone who's experienced a refugee reality, and you start to listen to their story, you start to learn about their savvy, gritty resilience. Then you recognize, Boy, I've, I've never, ever had to attempt to navigate that type of reality. And man, there's a lot that that that I can learn. And there's just a lot that I appreciate about who you are, in spite of that reality that you've experienced. You know, I think one of the things that that struck me and and I know that this is true across many of the ethnic peoples of Myanmar, but man, the sense of hospitality, and welcome is just completely and radically different from anything that I've experienced here in the United States. And I know that you can attest to that as well, but it's just like, hey, how can I like, what do you need? Are you hungry? Like, are you thirsty? How can I, you know, serve you and I think, yeah, that that. I've certainly learned a lot about hospitality from experiencing it from from the Kenya and currently, communities in Minnesota. And so, you know, and that's something that again, I don't think I realized how deficient I was, until I experienced that level of hospitality and welcome from from the museum people. So I have it's just one among many, for sure.
Host 19:42
Right. So the hospitality was definitely something that started to have its mark on you as you became familiar and accustomed with them. I think anytime we start to move away from our culture and into another culture and other people it it teaches us not just how we might lack in something, but how our culture our upbringing, our conditions have not taught us something about humanity. And it allows us as we interact with that new culture, it allows us to grow in ways that perhaps our own culture and family and community didn't necessarily teach us. And that that's a great thing about traveling or in your case, not necessarily traveling, but just coming into contact with the other in the form of the large Khanjan population of Minneapolis, St. Paul. So as you started to grow and to move into the community become more familiar, become perhaps a part of the community? And what ways did that change you in positive ways? And what ways did that impact your behavior and make you become a different person with different traits? make you aware of different things? How did it help you? How did the contact and sustained contact interaction with the Kenyatta community in the Minnesota area? And then in Myanmar, Thailand? In what ways did that start to change who you were as a person and how you saw the world and fellow humanity?
Jesse Phenow 21:02
Cash man live? That's a great question. I think. You know, I think maybe the the first thing that comes to mind, and maybe the biggest is, you know, you mentioned this, this kind of like white savior complex, that I definitely think looking back on it, I I had, you know, partially just because it, it is embedded in the culture of white supremacy in America. And then certainly in the, you know, conservative evangelical idea of it is that I have something to offer that you don't have, you know, and so I think there is a real Savior mentality. And so for me, it, it I think the biggest thing that it that it really transformed in me, is my posture. You know, I've since come to realize that. And when you posture yourself as having something to offer, you really miss out on an opportunity to learn and to receive. And I think now I really try to posture myself and every new context that I'm in with, with a new person, or a new relationship as a listener, and a learner, and and I think that that has really important and transformative capabilities, when we posture ourselves in that way, you know, this, this opportunity to, to learn and grow and, and also to eventually, you know, contribute an offer, but I think that it's just a really disarming posture to you know, you're not, there's no agenda other than, Hey, I just want to learn about you, you know? Yeah, so I think that that's, that's probably the biggest one as I reflect back on it of it. Yeah, that just that that change in posture has dramatically impacted my life and every relationship that I've experienced since then. Because I really feel like, gosh, I I got a lot to learn. And there's opportunities everywhere for, for me to do that. So
Host 23:46
yeah, that's great. And just to dig a bit more into the Kenya culture for those that that haven't had, they haven't had the experience of being as integrated and welcomed as you have. I'm, I'm thinking back on my own experiences with different cultures. And just to name a few things that come to mind. I spent some time in France. And there's, of course, there's so much you could say about culture and people but somehow the memory that comes back to me of my time in France is how the the dinners would be with my host families and how they were these three hour long affairs that everyone would would talk at once and there'd be all these these side conversations and food just kind of seemed like a a an added it didn't seem like we are coming down to dinner, it seemed like we are coming to have a three hour conversation and we just happen to be eating through those three hours as we were talking. And that was a very different experience for me as American where you were focusing more on the food than the community your conversation. If I think about my time in Japan, one of the things of course, there's many many things to say but just one thing that pops up about my my, how I've learned from Japanese culture and grown is in many conversations. I would have a Japanese friends there was just a a there could be a silence in the conversation. We didn't need to fill with words where we could, we could just have a break and talking and we could both sit there and be comfortable with it. And I was extremely uncomfortable when I first arrived because I felt like silence was always something you had to rush to fill. And over my years in Japan, I learned how to have conversations where there could just be periods of silence where no word needed to be said and that was totally fine. When I think about my time in Myanmar, one of the things that comes to mind immediately is the generosity just the the the selfless giving the joyous giving the joy in someone else's success or well being and the welcoming into just a small acts of, of how one can be generous and my experience in in Myanmar was, was so tied, especially in the early days of Burmese Buddhists. And so, to me, that giving went into it, it touched me deeply in the selflessness I was trying to achieve in meditation and the lack of ego and and thinking of others before my own needs and seeing my own selfishness laid bare so these are just these are examples of things I would think of in cultures that that I attend to and spent time in that stayed with me so when you're thinking of your time in Kenya culture and for those that that haven't really had those experiences, what would be characteristics or things that would come out as defining your experience integration with Kenya community members and culture?
Jesse Phenow 26:31
Man, first of all, I feel like we need to just flip the script and do a podcast episode on your story because I didn't know in France and Japan that's amazing. Cash so many things, so many beautiful trade traits and, and realities in the Kenyatta community, I think the one that just jumps out to me right away is the the familiarity, you know, the real like emphasis on family, and how that is not defined by blood. You know, in in the Kenyatta language. And I'm sure that this is consistent in other languages as well, but it's different in English, or maybe in our American culture that, you know, when you refer to someone, you call them by their name. And, you know, so if I was talking to you, I'd say, hey, Host, right. But in the Kenya community, and language and culture, you hardly hardly use anyone's name, you know, you would address someone as Hey, big brother, or, Hey, little sister, Hey, Grandma, Hey, grandpa. And I think that that is that that's just one kind of element of this real deep sense of family and connectedness that you feel when you interact with the Kenyatta people. And so I think, as you're talking about it, you know, that sense of generosity, I think that, you know, that's also there in the Kenya community of, yeah, of course, I'm going to share what I have with you, like, your family, you know, your, your big brother, and and I think that, that, that has been such a really powerful and transformative thing for me, where now I've even, you know, tried to integrate some of that language in into my own context here and try to refer to people as as family when I can or when it feels appropriate. So, yeah, I think that that's, gosh, that's a big one. The other one is, man, can ya people are hilarious, and not take themselves too seriously. Just radically humble. And, and, you know, just just deeply, like, respectable in their way of not having such big egos. And being willing to, you know, poke fun at themselves or to be goofy and, you know, even people with really, really big jobs are really, really, you know, things that they're involved with being a big deal. When you meet them, they're just just treat you like family. Just treat you like you're, you know, you've been around since forever. And so I think that's been my I experience. But I've also heard that that's pretty consistent with people that bump up to look in your community as well. So, yeah, those are just a couple. But man, such such beautiful, amazing, amazing people, no doubt.
Host 30:16
And you referenced earlier in your story about sitting down and having khanjar food with them. So just have to ask, tell us a bit about can your food and some of your favorite dishes?
Jesse Phenow 30:27
Oh, gosh, well, I think this is this is probably pretty cliche, but con Na is like, kind of like a fish soup. And it is just an absolute staple. And so delicious. I think it's all Mohinga in Burmese, and so I'm sure you've had it and it's do just absolutely fire so so it's an I can eat bowl after bowl of that. But gosh, I think some of my other favorites are. I love booty. DJ. I know that that's like, also a pretty staple Burmese thing. Maybe, yeah, Joe one thing I'm curious about? Have you ever had palm wine?
Host 31:25
I don't why you've been in I don't drink alcohol. So I haven't. Yeah, yeah.
Jesse Phenow 31:29
Have you ever seen it? Like in novels that
Host 31:34
I might have. But because I don't drink I tend to not not notice that part of it. But I've definitely been around the like, just local people locally making their own liquor just hearing about that and, and being around that, but I haven't really differentiated all that much.
Jesse Phenow 31:52
Yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah. So in in, kinda like the middle to southern Kenya. ancestral homeland, coffee lay, they have these really beautiful big palm trees that produce this. I guess it would be called like a sap, I guess in the tree and it ferments in the tree. And then they chop a branch and kind of pour out this Sam this app. It's this very kind of like fruity, earthy beer. And it's not super super high and alcohol but enough to be dangerous if you're really getting after it. But but it's also it's just super tasty. So I think that's another one. Yeah, it's just fun. Because you know, when you're when you're in like a real traditional vinyasa village, it's it's an indigenous reality. You know, you're there's people that are very much living off the land. And some of the food that you get is just just the bomb, because it's so natural, and everything is kind of produced by the sweat in the hands of those in the village. Yeah, I think, man, it's just the village life is is the best dude. So much. So much fun. I could say. Yeah.
Host 33:31
That's great. So moving along your story. And kind of the touchstones that you mentioned in your introduction. You talk about writing a, a, your senior thesis on the Crenn revolution in the post war period. So this, of course, could be a whole podcast episode, it could be a whole podcast program with series of episodes, but I want to put you on the spot and just give you 1015 minutes, whatever, however you run through, and I'm sure there's some listeners who have some familiarity with the current revolution that rings a bell or they know this or that and I'm sure there's others listening that are that are like, what's that? What's the current revolution? So if you could just give us a synopsis of of what happened, what it is what what's important about it, the legacy of it there, which I know is a hard thing to do for someone with so much knowledge about a certain topic to try to try to just bring it to an extended summary. But if you could just touch upon the significance of the current revolution what you found as he studied it,
Jesse Phenow 34:28
boy, all right, folks will strap in and take with a real big grain of salt as this is coming from a lily white guy in Minnesota who hasn't lived any of this story or reality, but I'll try to kind of reflect on some of what I've learned and how my experiences have driven some of that home but um, gosh, you know, I think it's important In this story to actually go back, you know, pre pre Colonial Era even I think, you know, the the Kenya, history is really beautiful and it gets passed down it's a, it's an oral history and there's a word that the Kenyatta community uses to kind of describe some of the way that those stories are told. And that's TA and TA is like, kind of like poetry. But it also has this like deeper meaning and story. And so maybe for some who are out there listening, I won't go into the full story. But there's this really famous kind of folk tale or origin story or TA that the Kenyatta community holds about. Grandpa named Paiute, Tanmay, PA. And basically, there's a belief that, that can your community was led from the Gobi desert or Mongolia, down the salween river by this grandpa elder in the community called put on paper and and then sometime in there, there's a split where some of the Can ya people, you know, I think the story goes that they get a little lost because they're behind put down a PA and so they end up in the Delta area down by you know, what was written good. And, and put on VAPA continues down the salween and ends up in what is probably, you know, described now is the current state and or the current health in eastern Myanmar. And so you know, you get this it's kind of fascinating story there where there's these western coal, can ya people, and then there's this ska, Korean, or can ya? community that is kind of more East. And, and I won't get, again too deep into the weeds, but there's, there's other groups, and then of course, Karani folks as well in that mix that karate is, is basically just means read current. And so the current state, of course, is just a little bit north of where the current current state is. So anyway, I think, you know, starting there, it's then important to reflect on actually what was happening before the British colonized. And that was, you know, some fighting between these different kingdoms and particular these Burmese kingdoms and Thai kingdoms. And as these two kind of conflicting kingdoms would would do get out, they consistently would travel through Kenya land to get there. And so, the Kenya, people were used as porters and slaves and you know, there was never a real, real good conciliation or relationship between the Burmese communities or the Thai communities, and then of course, the Can ya community. And yeah, so that's kind of the backdrop, then as the British colonize, they connect really well with the Western pole, can ya people that has a lot to do with the fact that a lot of those can yah hoo, were living in that delta converted to Christianity. And the British found the Kenyatta people to be, you know, humble and trustworthy and loyal. And then of course, there was this connection between religion and so many of the Koran were elevated into positions of power within the colonial government when it was established. As well as many you know, Kenya people were sent to England to go study and so actually the, you know, the, the leader of the Korean Revolution, when it started, was a gentleman named Saba Wu Ji and Saba Wu Ji was trained lawyer who attended Cambridge University and served in the colonial military as well. And so, again, kind of trying to breeze through what is a really complex history. And I want to be careful not to make too many generalizations, but I think a lot of people who are familiar with Myanmar are familiar with kind of the end of the colonial area and World War Two. And so you know, it's it's kind of thought that the, the Burmese and more or less invited the Japanese and to kick out the British to end that colonial era. And then they realized that some way through that, that the Japanese were actually not there as liberators, but there as new colonizers. And so, you know, that's the story of kind of, then flipping and fighting against the Japanese. And so during that whole time, the, the Korean, or many of them had aligned themselves with the British, particularly when the Japanese first invaded. And so you know, you now have Quranic and ya people fighting against Burmese and Japanese people. And the British promised the Kenyatta people that at the end of World War Two, when it when the dust settled that the Korean people can your people would be given their ancestral homeland, and that the British would be an ally to this new country of Guatemala. And, of course, just with the complexities of what eventually ended up happening, where, you know, I guess, the broader Burmese started to fight against the Japanese and help kind of kick them out, and then a relationship. You know, with the British, again, things just got really convoluted. And that promise to the Kenyatta people was never fulfilled by the British. And so they're, you know, I think the end of the colonial era is just kind of fascinating, and how everything, you know, ends up playing out. There's not a lot of ethnic representation at the table between or at the kind of negotiations table between the British and then, you know, those who would be establishing a new non colonial country of of Burma. And so the, you know, the current people ended up starting this political organization known as the can you and the can you really started as an advocacy group to try to get a seat at the table for some of these negotiations, and, and that never ended up coming to pass. And so yeah, more or less. Skipping ahead. What happens is Burma's gained independence in 1947. And then there's two years of kind of some real serious tension between the Koran and Burmese, you know, or kind of the the new ruling government. And what ends up happening is there's a lot of discrimination against Korean people in the capital of Rangoon. And eventually, there's some acts of violence against Korean people in Rangoon, or actually, in this suburb of Rangoon called insane and so what happens is in January of 1949 there was kind of a indiscriminate killing of some Korean people insane and so, you know, Saba Wu Ji, who was a part of the can you helped found the can do, which is the Korean national Non Defense Organization, and they armed themselves and started to fight back. And so there was really intense fighting in insane in Rangoon for a period of time in in early 1949. And what eventually happens is, you know, there's a ceasefire agreement for a couple of days. And during that time, you know, the the Burmese military ends up kind of positioning themself surround surrounding this, can ya Korean revolution, insane. And eventually they are, you know, the peace talks dissipate. And they're fighting again. And the Korean soldiers that were in insane, escaped Rangoon and insane and eventually moved east into the Korean hills, and so that fighting that conflict has technically never been resolved. And that's why there are now, you know, all sorts of literature and documentaries about this, this being the longest running civil war in the history of the world, because technically they can you and Korean armies have no not, you know, given up or signed, anything that would indicate kind of their relinquishment of their land. And so yeah, that's Boy, that's kind of a real long, but kind of short, also a reflection of of some of that history. And boy, I hope that it made sense. But yeah, that's kind of my understanding of it. And there's obviously a lot more from 1949. On to where we sit now. But yeah, just You're right, we need a whole series, I think to really knock out that one, for sure. But
Host 47:23
we're working on that. So we'll see if we can bring that around. But um, that was great. Great. And since you're on a roll, I want to put you on the spot again and have have you keep going, as you mentioned, there's a lot more that happens after 49. I know that we were talking in person about what the current mindset is of the younger generation ethnics Bomar Kenya, and how that relates to what the elders have been through and what how the elders see things. And I think, before we get to what this younger generation is thinking and doing in ways that are different and how urban village and perhaps insight Myanmar are, respectively playing roles in trying to support this new way of looking things. To contrast, the, the, the freshness and the newness that some of the young generation are looking at things now. We do have to better understand that contrast of how did their elders see things, what did their elders go through, and you just set the stage for something a couple generations ago. But to get a little more recent up to the present day, before we get into the the post coup issues and the Kenya youth both back there, as well as here and the ones you work with, if I could put you on the spot again, and have you carry us through to the next several decades, and whatever whatever you want to touch upon, obviously, there is it is impossible to in a short amount of time chart, the insurgencies, the divisions, the different units that form the controversies, the successes and failures. There's so much there, there's books that are trying to catalog and it's incredibly complicated and confusing. But if but as someone who spent so much time with this community and also researching and writing and reading, talking about it, if you can just carry us through to something of the important things that then happen after 49 leading before the coup just so we get a sense of better understanding the perspective and the history and the and the issues that are now defining how this current generation and their elders are responding in this moment.
Jesse Phenow 49:37
Well, two things quickly one I do again, just I want to drive home that, you know, these are largely my experiences and some of my readings and I'm not a historian. So I will do my best. But also to I definitely want to drive this home that I think probably some of the languages that I'm using is going to be very be broad and quite general. And, sure, one thing that I, you know, want to definitely make a note of now is that, as I've, as I've used, even the word Burmese, you know, that encompasses a really, really broad group. And I think as I've been referencing it, I really meaning more of like the, the, I'm going to start using the term the tatmadaw, which maybe people will understand that that is, you know, this, that is the military of Myanmar now, or Burma. And so there's kind of this, you know, the elite, Burmese general ruling class dominating class that is really behind pushing these buttons for the tatmadaw. So I just want to start with that, but gash? Yeah, so I think maybe the the next kind of milestone that would be important, after the start of the Kenyatta revolution in 1949, is that? Well, one, the Kenya revolution was right off the bat actually, really, really close to a completely different reality for Myanmar now. Yeah. There. Yeah. The the Kenya military or can do at that time was, you know, colluding with other ethnic minority groups throughout the country. And, you know, at one point in time, the city of Tangu was completely controlled by the Kenya, Mandalay was controlled by, you know, these rebel forces, there's actually a really wild story about kind of a jailbreak in Mandalay that led to the takeover of or the control of the city, but not to go into that here. Just a fascinating, fascinating story. So the next Yeah, the next big milestone would be maybe in 62. And maybe folks who are familiar will remember that, you know, that's the first coup were named when takes over the country. And there's just a general campaign of, of violence against, you know, not just the Khanjan. And currently, folks, but other, you know, ethnic minorities throughout the country. I think this is really when, you know, Berman isation started much longer before this period, but was really driven home during this time as well. You know, can ya, people are not allowed to have school curriculum in their language. That's, you know, just an example of kind of the feminization, many Kenyatta, people who are living in the cities. If they went to a public school, they would need to change their name to a Burmese name. And so that's, that's kind of just Yeah, the one reality of Burma zation that has some pretty big and intense impacts. And so. So that's happening in 62. And then, of course, I think everyone is hopefully familiar with then what happens in 88. And, of course, 88 is is the, or before 88, the Saffron Revolution, and then leading up into the student revolution and, and there's just such a really intense crackdown against you know, many of the Burmese ethnic majority who are demanding something new, something better and access to education and to you know, better kind of civil processes and, and so that leads to this really violent crackdown and a lot of the folks who are in the big cities who are leading these student revolutions, end up fleeing and where they, you know, end up fleeing to is into The Kenya revolution. And so at that time, the Can ya people had, or the Kenya Revolution had a kind of like a home base or a capital, you could say, a focal point for the revolution known as Manor PLA and Manor plies is very close to the Thai border. It's in the Korean hills of Eastern Myanmar. And Manor pa actually translates to victory field. And so this was where, you know that that pursuit of of independence and overthrow of this military regime was really being seated and fostered and grown. And so that's where a lot of the 88 students who were very involved in kind of their own revolution end up in man or PLA. And there's this, you know, really, in a lot of ways, beautiful broadening of the Kenya revolution, where, you know, there's delegates from different ethnic groups and representatives from these Burmese student unions, and there's just fertile soil for connection to kind of foster and flourish and brought in this idea of revolution in the country. And so, of course, the tatmadaw were really intentional about wanting to stamp out this kind of city in which the revolution is is stemming from and so it takes a handful of years, but in 95. Manor plot eventually false and in a lot of ways, since 95, the gun yaw revolution has looked a lot more spread out a lot more, you know, kind of thinner but scrappier in a lot of different ways. And so that kind of leads us to the the last two milestones on this journey, being the NCAA agreement in 2015. And so, in 2015, it was kind of a controversial move, but the leaders of the Can you at that time, sign an official, you know, ceasefire agreement, national ceasefire agreement NCA with the tatmadaw. And there's a period of, you know, peace in, in conflict a or in the current state, between the the Korean revolutionary forces and the tatmadaw. And, you know, I think it's important to mention that there's a lot happening in the country at this time, if, you know, people are aware, there's a pretty big election that happened. And there was a lot of hope, I think, for some real changes to take place. And unfortunately, that really never came to pass, as we're all probably well aware. On February 1 of 2021. The, you know, tatmadaw, once again, took over the country and really have been intentional and violent in their stamping out of, of hopes for something new and for revolution. And that's kind of where we find ourselves is in this place now where? Yeah, the entire country is really fighting back. And I think this type of unity probably hasn't been seen before, but definitely not since 88. And kind of the fallout of some of that time period where people are really looking across ethnic divisions and traditional divides and trying to work together to overthrow this military regime. And so yeah, the Kenya revolution is on its 73rd Third year, but soon to be 74th. And I guess there's a real, I think, feeling of of hopefulness and optimism in what some of the, you know, this new unity is providing, but also, I think, just a very sad and and depressing reality of what it's taking to get there. And I know that probably many who are listening to this podcast are familiar with, with what I'm talking about, but just the indiscriminate bombings and killings of civilians all over the country. It's certainly a hopeful but a dark time in Myanmar. And so yeah, I think that that kind of brings us up to speed. What did I miss?
Host 1:00:54
Yeah, thanks for that. That's, that's great. That's another great run through of a lot of years. There's just one thing I wanted to ask you about in that time and get your thoughts on the significance of that's the Buddhist Korean split of the Korean community. Hmm.
Jesse Phenow 1:01:08
Yeah. And so that that's a really fascinating kind of, part of this story is that, you know, the, the real reason for the fall of men or PLA is a division that happens between Kenya Christians, and Kenya, Buddhists in the Caribbean, or Kenya armed forces. And so kind of the way that the story goes is a lot of the the leaders or top brass in the Kenya military were Christians, you know, they kind of came from that line of connection to the British. And, you know, their proximity to the British and the British military, equipped them well to be military leaders. But their religion, you know, I think, made them a little different from maybe just the everyday soldier. And so, you know, there's, I think, some some feelings of mistreatment, from the Kenyatta Buddhist soldiers to some of the, you know, top brass, who are identifying as Christian and the tatmadaw, I think we're able to recognize this. And they leveraged it. And so they started kind of fueling discord and, you know, placing different kinds of spies in different places and paying different operatives, to kind of fanned the flame of, of discord between those two communities. And what eventually ends up happening is, there's a split, there's a split in the Kenya armed forces. And, you know, there's what's called the Candido and KLA split. And what came out of them was a group called the D kPa. And that group was instrumental in in kind of giving up the area and tactical kind of advantage in the fall of manner PLA. And yeah, so that it's just a really interesting and unfortunate division that has since I think kind of taken on itself in different ways. Now today, but I also think that there's a lot of healing that has gone on since then. And again, I think people are starting to recognize the way that the tatmadaw and particularly the military leaders of the tatmadaw just don't actually have a stake in in any religion or Buddhist unity. They kind of just want to leverage what they can to maintain control and power. And so I think people are really becoming more and more aware and in tune with that. So
Host 1:04:47
right, yeah, thanks for that. And if you can clarify something else that might have sprung out of this split, we mentioned the DEA Kba. There's also these border guard force says, which I believe are in Kenyatta state, can you share what you know about them and how this might be related?
Jesse Phenow 1:05:06
Yeah. So, you know, again, I'm not a historian on this, but based on my understanding, there's even, you know, kind of another split within the D Kba. That eventually leads to this new group known as the border guard force. And, you know, this is, again, a largely Korean military, the border guard force is, at least in this area of the current state. And, you know, there's all sorts of now different stories, and understandings and beliefs about how the border guard forces is, you know, really, and more of a business than it is military in that there's all these economic and financial deals with, you know, Chinese businesses and casinos, and drugs and, you know, man, kind of anything that you can think of it, it seems like, there's a hand in some of that, from this group. And so yeah, that's that's kind of the origins, though, is that it stems from this religious split in the in the Kenya revolution.
Host 1:06:32
Right, thanks. So that brings us up to today and gives us just a general overview of where we are in the last two years, before getting to how the younger generation Z both here and as well as an Myanmar have been carrying this forward, let's understand their elders. And given the history that you explained how how they have come to see this current conflict, and from your understanding of those you've talked to, as well as third person those, you've talked to who've explained some of the leadership and some of the views of the elders. This is a time of revolution. It's been going on for nearly two years now. And it is in with all things revolution in history, everything has the potential of being shaken up new ideas, good and bad, can come out and and be examined and the way forward and the ground is very unclear. But what is your understanding of some of the elders and leaders in the Kenyatta community, how they see this time since the coup, what they've been doing, and what their motivation and their goals are?
Jesse Phenow 1:07:36
Oh, boy, man, Joe, I think cash again, this is this is a tough is a tough question to answer. And I think there's Lee, again, largely because I have no right to answer. In law, I think there's a saying that anything without us, or anything about us without us is not for us. And so I want to definitely tread tread carefully as I attempt to share some of my experience. But you know, I think it's it one thing that I can share, particularly just because of my experience here in Minnesota, amongst the you know, the diaspora is that. Yeah, man, there's a lot of trauma. There's a there's a, there's a real lived pain that stems from a lot of years of intense violence and human rights violations. You know, there's not there's not a khanjar person in Minnesota who doesn't have a story about Yeah, family member or a friend. You know, being harmed, raped, killed, tortured, or a village burned. And, you know, us being people being used as porters. And there's just, there's so much trauma in this community based on real violence that they've experienced. And I think the truth is, you know, that trauma makes it really difficult to imagine. Repair to imagine. Now, you know, there's amongst the amongst the youth in Myanmar, I think, you know, there's a real acknowledgement of the ethnic struggle now. Which is new And I'm not sure that the elders within the diaspora are ready to trust it, or forgive it, you know, or forgive what happened. And, you know, the the youth of the Diaspora I think are are much more willing to, to embrace this moment and see the Unity the opportunity for for unity and for a new reality moving forward, but the elders are skeptical. And I think it's it's understandable, you know, it's, it's based on real experiences that they have. And yeah, so I think I think that would kind of be my answer, you know, in regards the, my perception of, of where I see some of the elders within this community app. Yeah, I think it's, it's hard for them to imagine working with or supporting a PDF group in Mandalay, you know, more acceptable to, to really focus on supporting, you know, the K in LA, and the can you so, yeah, I think that that's, I don't know if that answers your question. But
Host 1:11:34
yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that, that, and I appreciate the sensitive ground and respect how careful you're being and trying to describe your understanding of different voices that eventually we hope to have on as well, to get those perspectives directly. I think it's really valuable hearing about the background of these elders, the mistrust, the trauma, the the things that happened that have them looking a bit more skeptically, I think it's really important to understand not just how they think but why they think that way where it came from, and then how they're approaching this current moment, given their understanding and their lived experience in these other times, moving now to the younger generation, which you've just touched upon lightly in terms of their the younger generation seeing things differently, wanting something different, perhaps having a bit more idealism and open to the moment which those who've been through that may label is naivete, one doesn't know until this plays out. But how would you go in a bit deeper into this younger generation with whom you're very connected to I understand, both in the country and here? What what are you hearing from them? What are they expressing about this current moment and what they want and what they hope for?
Jesse Phenow 1:12:54
Oh, boy, man, I mean, I think there's there's some really cool things going on right now. I think. First and foremost, one thing that we're really seeing here, particularly amongst the the Kimia community in Minnesota is a real intense reclamation of identity. I think that, you know, with the coup in Myanmar, and maybe, again, this this opportunity that it presents, a lot of youth are, I think, hopeful and motivated that that, for the first time, the Koran or Kenyatta people will be recognized, you know, the, the labor of their ancestors for 73, almost 74 years, and even prior of, of this journey towards self determination, they that it will be acknowledged. And I think that there's a real hope and I think that it's really igniting a new sense of unity, even within the, the Kenyatta people, that this is a moment where there's an there's a chance that if we come together, we can secure recognition and self determination for our people, which they've never had. And so I think it is just a really amazing time to see the way that people are coming together around that opportunity. Yeah, I think that's a big one and then And then the other thing is, I think, what's different, you know, from 2021, to from 88 is social media, you know, not all the diaspora community is getting updated moment by moment of what is happening to their people. And there's, they're spreading it, you know, they're, they're sharing it, and they're including people like you and I, and, and asking and, you know, hoping for ally ship and accompaniment as they, you know, try to serve their people back home. And so I think that that's, that's a really different thing right now and that organizing and sharing information has has never been that easy. And are this easy, and that's played a big, big role in how I think the, you know, the youth, especially as savvy as they are with social media, they're leveraging it on behalf of their people.
Host 1:16:16
Hmm. That's interesting. That's, that's great to hear. Getting that this identity issue. And this 70 to 73 year revolution and insurgency that's taken place that has transform the lives uprooted the lives of a whole community around the world, and many of whom have come to your home state of Minnesota. I wonder what you've learned about those in the community, how they've come to understand or reconcile their, their identity, because Manor plot fail. And there are many Kenya villages have been burned and destroyed over many, many years, many generations and have been terrorized the trauma, many have spent time in IDP camps in Thailand, or in Myanmar. And, and then many have resettled in various places around the world, certainly many in Minnesota, where there's a huge population, I think, the biggest population outside of Southeast Asia. And so there's this tenuous identity of younger generation being born into something that is over seven decades old, and trying to understand who they are, as they're displaced, and grow up, displaced and take on some part of the identity of that culture. And yet they also have the culture of their community. And then outside of their community, they come from a larger country where they're an ethnic minority. So these are a lot of diverse and complicated identity issues to sort out. And I learned just a little bit about the complexity involved in this when we were when when we met when in person when I was there in Minnesota, and just taking in how layered and complicated these identity issues were. So how have you come to understand how people in the VR community, whether they're here, they're somewhere in between? How they've come to understand which group they belong to, and how they identify?
Jesse Phenow 1:18:13
Boy, that's a man Joe, that's, that's a big question. I think the reality is, is that there's there's a lot of diversity in people's understanding of their identity as there should be. You know, I think kind of the word that we might be dancing around is intersectionality. You know, what, what? Oh, you know, what's kind of the hierarchy of, of how you define your identity, are you? Can ya, are you Buddhist? Are you American, are you straight? You know, like, what, what comes first and all the different kind of intersections that that people have to navigate? I will say that, I think, again, as it kind of relates to what's happening back in, in Myanmar right now. I just want to speak a little bit to this, this reclamation of identity, to where, you know, I'm going to share a story and I won't share this person's name, but I have a just a real beloved friend, brother, who as he you know, he's Can you on he, he talks about his experience growing up, was he he actually grew up, you know, in the refugee camp, and then was able to go to a Thai school that was near the refugee camp. And, you know, while he was at Thai school, he had to kind of assume a Thai identity in order to fit in And really to be treated well. And then eventually he's resettled in New York. And when he's in New York, you know, he's one of the first in ya, people there, and, and he's going to school and people are asking him, you know, where are you from? And this, this guy goes on to share that he's from Thailand. And, you know, I think after the first couple of times, he starts to realize that, man, it's just so much easier, rather than identifying yourself as Korean, where most people will say, Oh, you're Korean, you know, he would actually just identify himself as Thai. And I think he, you know, he, he kind of went on to share to me that he felt ashamed, he felt ashamed to be identified as a refugee, you know, as, as someone who stateless who didn't have a land. And so he grew up, really his his entire early years and into high school, and then eventually College, just telling people he was taught. And I think, you know, again, the, the proximity that social media has created to the conflict and Myanmar has, in in this individual in particular, I think he ignited a sense of like, No, you know, what, I do have a land, like I do have a people that are my own, I do have a history and a culture, that's, that's worth reclaiming. Because there's people that are fighting and dying, to reclaim it, you know, and or to, to stake it to value it as as not lesser than but equal to, you know, and so, I think yeah, for them, they have just completely Yeah, I think done a 180 in terms of now, they are leading, co leading an organization that is actually called IBM can ya and is really, this, this, this feeling of reclamation, you know, the the desire to, to be valued as Can ya. You know, not to be called Koran, but to be referred to as Can ya, and to be seen as equal, you know, it's just beautiful. It's, it's really been a special thing, especially here at the urban village to be a part of that movement to help, you know, in a lot of ways, programmatically and logistically in that movement. And, yeah, it's just a cool thing to witness and to be a part of,
Host 1:23:22
yeah, and that segues perfectly into urban village, I want to spend a bit more time with that with just an amazing organization very unique in terms of your mission and what activities you're doing, what your programs are. Can you take us through you mentioned earlier in your brief introduction, just how you found a bar that was for sale on your street, and you decided to renovate it and turn it into a space for urban village to be able to do things with, talk us through urban villages, mission activities, who, who you're working with what what you're doing, who's coming in just the whole gamut, because you guys do such amazing, wonderful work.
Jesse Phenow 1:24:06
I appreciate it. You know, again, I think in a lot of ways, as I reflect on the story, the urban village was kind of the cart before the horse, if you will, and that we acquired this space, even before we had a plan of what we were going to do with it. We had just kind of heard and, you know, I think folks who would eventually become founding board members have been saying for a long time that we you know, we just don't have a can EOS space. Like, you know, we don't have a space that feels like ours. You know, our schools are diverse, our churches, our rent Did you know our temples are rented? You know, there's just there was a feeling of of this is a place that we can call our own or there is a place to call our own. And so we started there, we really, in the renovation process just reached out to really friends that we have had for a long time in the community who are artists and just kind of took a hold of this space, and we said, hey, you have free rein to make this place feel like home, make it feel like this is a Khanjan correnti space. And so what ended up happening is, I think, kind of first and foremost, we became this unofficial Art Gallery, where we, you know, opened up our space for all of the artists in the community to come display their art. And then it kind of morphed from there into getting more creative with the space itself. And, you know, trying to, I think you saw, we have like a, a wall that we've covered in bamboo to try to kind of reflect what can ya, home feels like in a village and we have like a thatched leaf, that fast roof and a bunch of artifacts and things that you know, just now kind of feel like, Yeah, this is, this is a good yarn, currenty space. And so that's where we started. And I think, what we've since kind of grown into, and really understanding our unique work within the community is in this this emerging generation, I think, you know, we're, we're hearing from elders, a genuine fear around a growing disconnect between them and their kids. And I think a lot of that stems from the realities of, of, I think, what's, you know, more commonly described as being a third culture kid, you know, growing up having can your parents who are fully can, ya speaking, who dress and act and eat fully, like they did back in the refugee camp or, you know, in, you know, back in coffee lay. And then you're, you're in their home, and you're experiencing that as a child, but you're going to school, and you're experiencing broader American culture. And and I think that, you know, kids end up with this, like, confusion around, I don't feel quite Can ya are Caronia enough, but I don't feel quite American enough. Whatever that means, but I think then they kind of find themselves in this third space of, kind of bouncing in between. And I think we've seen how that leads to some deep feelings of disenfranchisement, and, and not being understood, really by anybody. So we've kind of taken it upon ourselves here at the urban village to, to just generally speaking, be a space for those kids. And, you know, our, our mission, again, is to accompany these youth as they connect, heal and launch. And our hope is that that connection really starts with a connection to themselves, you know, connection to their identity, whatever they come to believe that to be, you know, but that they feel a sense of connection, I think, hosting our programs in the urban village actually provides a really cool opportunity for that where, you know, these young kiddos who have, you know, they maybe they weren't even born here in the US or they don't remember time in Thailand or Myanmar. They look around and they see, you know, art that depicts a Kenya village and, and they're curious, you know, and they get to learn about what everyday life is like in that village just by viewing that painting and I think it offers a Yeah. An opportunity for connection to more deep Yeah. oneself more deeply. And so. So that's a big part of what we do, we host a summer camp that really focuses on exploring the concept of identity and intersection and identity. We've called that can ya camp. So we're really excited about our second year of that coming up next summer. And then, you know, we do a variety of different programs that are oriented towards healing, I think a lot of the MDR and currently youth have experienced some traumas, you know, secondary trauma from their, from their parents. But, you know, resettlement is not a, it's not always a smooth process, like you it is, can be deeply traumatic. And so we try to create space to unpack some of those wounds and, and just safely embark on a journey of healing. And doing that around and with people who can relate and understand. And so yeah, I think that that, that those two kind of lead up to our last missional pillar, which is launch, and so we believe that a more connected and a youth who's on a journey of healing is prepared for a more robust launch. And I think for us that looks like just being good listeners at the urban village and hearing, okay, what, where do you want to go? Like, what are your dreams? What do you want to do with your life and providing support to get there. So we have some after school programs, we have a scholarship program, we have a fiscal sponsorship program. And then kind of just ultimately, and generally, we were down to be a part of have dreams of young people in this community. And so we're hopeful that leads to a podcast collaboration with insight Myanmar, but I think that the opportunities are varied, and we just want to be along for the ride wherever these youth want to go.
Host 1:32:44
That's great to hear another initiative I learned about when I was there, maybe you can go into is this history initiative of getting these histories of individuals all over the Kenya community. And then I don't know if this is part of the same project, or it's a different project, you can clarify that. But because there's such a large Kenya population in the Minneapolis, St. Paul area, then working with local schools, so that in the public schools, their history classes actually have a Kenya components so that these, these these third cultures, you say, individuals are able to learn about their own history in school. So can you break down those two initiatives? Or if they're part of the same one and what you're doing with that?
Jesse Phenow 1:33:30
Yeah, yeah. So that's, we're calling it our Khanjan Karenni. historical archive. And so basically, this is a youth led archive, where we're trying to accompany and empower youth, with the tools to go out and collect the stories that they want to hear from elders in their community. And ultimately, we will take those and kind of piecemeal them together with, you know, some other books and timelines and photos that we've had access to now. And that will become a free and accessible online archive. And our hope is that as that archive continues to develop, then we'll be a part of the process, like you said, and in partnering with local schools, to develop curriculum, to say, this is hey, this is how you can teach and understand. You know, can ya and currently history and yeah, and we hope that that, you know, is not just education that can yawn karate students will receive but that our broader community will get to explore and learn about and really relish in just deeply A beautiful and complex and nuanced history of these two incredible communities. So, so yeah, that's kind of a part of our Connect programming that we're in the in the midst of continuing to develop right now. But we're hopeful that that's gonna eventually be a real staple, and just kind of our gift to our broader Minnesota community, even national community for educators to get a hold of and and to put into their curriculums.
Host 1:35:35
Yeah, that is so cool. That is that is really neat what you're doing. And definitely, we hope that that that podcast program can take off and stay tuned to this account, as well as urban village to see developments if we win, and how we get that off the ground. I think it's, it's interesting, you know, you're from Minnesota. And as we've mentioned, there's this enormous Kenyatta community there also other ethnicities from Myanmar are found in, in Minnesota. I know there's a lot of money as well, as well as immigrants from other communities. What is your understanding why Minnesota became the place where so many Can ya came to, to live and to settle? And what can you take us through a virtual description of if one were to come chance upon the Kenya districts of St. Paul, what they'd find and what the experience would be there?
Jesse Phenow 1:36:31
Yeah, that's a good question. Well, I think it's, it's so I think it's really obvious that that can your people came? Because the weather is so similar to what they experienced back in Myanmar? That's, that's completely a joke. No, it's a pretty, pretty harsh. It's a harsh reality check for I think many families that as they've resettled in Minnesota, because it's certainly a one ad as it as it comes to weather and climate. So, but, you know, Minnesota has a really robust infrastructure for refugee resettlement. So there are five kind of big organizations that are based out of Minnesota that do refugee resettlement. And so, you know, those have, I think, you know, with with more and bigger organizations, you get just the opportunity for housing, more people. And so I think, you know, that's kind of what has led to Minnesota having the highest or the largest Hmong community, largest Somali community, and now largest. Can ya and CareOne. Communities, anywhere outside of Southeast Asia. So So yeah, that's I mean, that's, that's been a really, I think it's a cool thing about Minnesota. But I also think it's important to note that where there's a robust process for resettlement, I think there's some real work to be done on equity. Within, you know, Minnesota, I think Minnesota has some pretty large gaps in education, income inequality, as it pertains to race and socio economic status. And so I think, you know, it's awesome that there's so many folks that have come here to call Minnesota home, but I don't want to revel in that too long until we acknowledge that, hey, there's a lot of work that Minnesota can continue to do to actually not just a welcoming place, but a place where unities can come and thrive. So I think yeah, I'd be remiss to not share that but I mean, with that being said there's it's just it's really cool to be a part of this community here in East St. Paul. And you know, there's there's it's estimated that there's like 20,000 Can ya folks just in the St. Paul area and then there's more as I go outside of the Twin Cities but you know, you you can go to Kenya grocery stores here and and you can have a Kenya reorder, you can get in cured by Can ya agent? You know, I think most most things here that that you would need to do in Minnesota you can do in Kenya if if you need to. And I think that that's just what's kind of cool as, as I, you know, I'm able to reflect on it, there's Can ya restaurants and can your grocery stores. So folks are able to, to, I think, live into their cultural realities in a more kind of vibrant way here in Minnesota, because of the the amount of folks that are here. And then, of course, the work that the community is put in to be able to establish those things. And it's really exciting to be a part of that, particularly as the urban village. And we get to, you know, support and cheer on a lot of these different, you know, businesses and entrepreneurs and folks that are doing some cool things within the community here in St. Paul. So, yeah,
Host 1:41:22
yeah, that's really neat. When when I was there, you mentioned the reverence the grocery stores and restaurants and visited some of those, your urban village was quite generous to treat me to lunch when I was there, and it's delicious food and showed me some of the murals that were in the, in the in that part of St. Paul's, it's really cool to see Kenya inspired murals in the downtown and just writing the the Metro around Minneapolis and St. Paul, just realizing that one of the six languages or so of instructions was in Kenya, with Kenya script, which blew me away took pictures of that just seen the scene that representation and assistance that's there. And then, and seeing how it thrived. I spoke to one Kenya man who had spent I think 14 years in a refugee camp. And when he came, he had the choice of coming to New York City or St. Paul. And he had some contacts in New York that had some opportunities for him and, of course, New York City's New York City. But he came to St. Paul instead. Because the the the bubble of that community was so special and precious to him to want to help the youth and have peers and friends and be an active member of the community. It's like nothing else. And that's saying something when you're talking about New York City, you know, New York City definitely has opportunities and populations. But that's it, that's that's what it has. It has those, you know, limited experience of certain maybe certain holidays, or restaurants or activities here or there. Whereas in St. Paul, it's a it's a thriving community interactive, dynamic community members who are defining themselves and doing new things. And so he wanted to settle there and live his life there to be able to stay within that community and help support that growth. And that that was also gave me an insight and was was really cool to hear. Just to give a little bit of an anecdote to to set you up. You had mentioned that many of the Kenya girls who are in high school, take to volleyball and so volleyball matches High School Volleyball matches across the city, become these Kenyatta celebratory events that everyone attends, and they bring their own cultural practices and understanding of that. So describe a bit about what those volleyball matches are like, it sounds so cool. I really would have loved to attend one of those.
Jesse Phenow 1:43:45
Oh, gosh, do well, you're gonna have to come back because yes, yes. It's a whole vibe. And yeah, gosh, not just volleyball. I mean, it's, yeah, of course. I think a lot of people will recognize cane ball or tack raw soccer, of course. And, yeah, it's it's amazing that a lot of the local high schools I mean, they'll they'll have almost a full can yaw and corinium team, even though there's other communities that are representative at the school as well. But these are these ended up being like Crosstown showdowns of the different, Stark and ya athletes, which is is just really incredible to see. And then of course, you know, there are outside of high school and college locally. There's a super robust League of both volleyball and soccer, and kind of a circuit of tournaments that happen locally and then also now nationally. And so, you know, when we host Kinya martyrs day here in Minnesota, there will be teams for both volleyball and soccer that will travel from San Diego, from New York, from Georgia. I mean, all all over, which is really, really cool to see. But it's it's definitely true that St. Paul is kind of the cultural Nexus amongst the Kenya community. On the Kenya diaspora community here and in the US. Yeah, it's really fun to be a part of it. For sure.
Host 1:45:44
Right. So I also understand you referenced before how you went into Kenya states or early in your, your journey, and after spending a lot of time here in the community, Minnesota and then wanting to go back and live in villages for an extended period of time and how transformative that was. And I know that you've kept up your practice of continuing to make these visits. And even since the coup happened, I know you went last year, and you're you're going in again this year, I'm not sure exactly when this interview will come out. So it might be coming out when you're already there when you've come back. But if you could share a bit about what your experiences was, like, last year, going to a very different volatile time in in history and conflict, and what your plan and your goal is going this time around.
Jesse Phenow 1:46:34
Yeah. So you know, folks will remember February 1 2021, as when the coup, most recent coup began. And ever since then, just the violence has continued to ratchet, and ratchet and ratchet. And so there's just been tons of displacement of Kenya and Karenni civilians, and not just Kenya on credit, but all over the country of Myanmar. And I think, you know, I heard the other day, there's up to 2 million people that are displaced now. And so I think, you know, organizationally, for us at the urban village, it's, it's so important that we listen to our diaspora community to what the needs in the community are, and then really fall in line in as far as our service goes. And when the coup began, and when the violence was ratcheting up, really what the diaspora community was telling us is, hey, we need we need a place to organize, we need a place to fundraise. Because we'd really like to do something about this, we'd like to help our community back home who are impacted by this violence and so so we helped raise a bunch of funds and, and eventually, our team went over for the first time in April 2021. And then again in December 2021. And the main focus of those trips, were basically trying to bring as much relief and supplies to folks who have been displaced as possible, while in the meantime, being really intentional about trying to bring spirit of joy and love and compassion and solidarity, to the people who are most impacted by this violence. And so, our team would travel around and put on little, you know, fun concerts and games and, you know, talent shows, all over the Kenyatta territory, as a way to just, you know, defiantly bring some, some joy and a break from the fear that I think is collectively felt across the country. So, yeah, that's been important to us. It's, it's been just an incredible blessing and, and we're going to continue to do it as long as the reality of violence and displacement exists in in Myanmar.
Host 1:49:35
That's quite a thing to do. And as you're going in, you're witnessing and experiencing the reality of what's happening with with your own eyes, and I'm sure you have your own safety issues that you have to take into consideration and, and so I wonder if you could bring a bit of your eyewitness account and and experiences from last year's visit and as Well as speak a little bit generally, so you don't give away any any details that would, would not be safe. But how your how, what precautions are taken how you're planning? This year's visit?
Jesse Phenow 1:50:13
Oh, yeah, I mean, cautiously for sure. It, I think the most important thing for us is that we are going in a spirit of solidarity. And so if at any point, our presence doesn't make people safe, or isn't helpful, then then we don't want to be there. And so right now, there's an you know, there has been some pretty serious airstrikes that have happened in these areas, and I think, yeah, it's really, it's a difficult thing to be prepared for, if you haven't experienced it before. And it's something that you need to be very intentional about, you know, your preparedness, if it happens, and so for us, that's something that we are intimately in tune and connected with folks around the ground, we're trying to mitigate all those risks, and not bring too much attention to what we're doing. But also, you know, we, we believe that this solidarity is worth our lives, you know, we're there in full acknowledgement and understanding of the risks. Because we genuinely feel like these are our family, these are our friends, these are neighbors, and, and they're worthy of our solidarity. And if that puts us in harm's way, so be it. But that's, I think, you know, the, the, the resolve, and that doesn't mean that we're taking crazy, unnecessary risks. But it does mean that we acknowledge the reality of what's happening around us, and we'll and, you know, continue to, to have a presence.
Host 1:52:31
Yeah, that's quite powerful. We wish you all the best of, of safety and of the support and age you're able to give, it's really inspiring, and amazing to hear about the lengths that you're going to not just here, but over there to stand by and to be an ally and using your words, not just an ally, where you're standing and benefiting others, but how to what degree you're opening yourself to that culture in those people. And that it's it's not just reciprocal, but something that you you are saying time and again, since I've known you and on this, this interview, how this interaction and experience has made you a better person and how it's had you grown. So it's, it's just it's so inspiring and beautiful to hear the stories and have a chance to have you open up and be able to share what your experience has been like and and how these interactions have shaped you as well.
Jesse Phenow 1:53:28
Yeah, man, absolutely. I think if I can just drag that home, you know, it is it's been the absolute best gift I've ever received is to be in connection to the Kenyatta and Karenni and other ethnic folks from Myanmar. It's, it's been the absolute privilege of my life. And and it's a it's a complete joy and honor to be able to be so intimately connected. And in such a reciprocal relationship with them. So
Host 1:54:07
yeah, and I think it's also so valuable hearing the stories because I think when you just hear the headline about hit the headlines about the news, covering Myanmar for now, in the past years and decades, it's just these this one pivotal, pitiful or pathetic story after another of, of what of the violence and the and the economy and the lack of opportunity and everything that's going on there. And as you know, as I spoken to some of my Burmese friends in America who are pursuing different vocations in art or in other other kinds of fields, they say that, you know, when they travel and they travel to especially around Southeast Asia, and they tell people that they're Burmese, they get comments about their housekeeper or nanny being Burmese or about the immigrants that were work in this factory or do this kind of thing or the, in some places the refugee camps where they are. And so this kind of, of image and connotation is something that unfortunately has pervaded and has made it seem like this is a place where just a series of unfortunate things happen. And it's something to be pitied. And I think one of the things that we really try to push back against in these podcast conversations is what a giver, Myanmar is, whether that's a giver in terms of the money, the people, I talk to the meditation and the practice and the monasticism and how those people are, are just welcomed and embraced and brought into the spiritual practice, or whether it's hearing your story of you come in and thinking that you had something to offer and then realizing you were actually the recipient, and then these people in this foreign land, you've talked about how difficult displacement can be and, and what and then the trauma that they're carrying, and yet, and, of course, how different the weather is, and then coming in there, and still looking for a way to be a giver. And so I think that, as for those that are listening, and that tune into this, I think that's something that we really try to hit are those many, many stories out there that just show that just break down this narrative that occurs through these main headlines of a one dynamic, that that seeming to characterize the country and really unfair and inaccurate ways. And and there's so many stories that can poke the edges of that and show its its fallacy and its reductionist simplistic view. And I think yours is a great one of, of how much you're doing. And yet, as much as you've done as much as your your life has been centered and oriented around being of service to this community, you're you you express it, as someone who is fortunate to have come in contact with them and someone who, whose life has been shaped by the good privilege of being able to come into contact with this community and how much it's done for you how much you've learned. And so, you're giving is almost as the way I hear it, and understand it, you're you're giving is giving back, it's a it's an expression of gratitude, or of giving what you can, in acknowledgement of what you've received, having been open to this community in a way that maybe your local community or culture hasn't, hasn't quite that same quality or series of qualities. And so, it's, um, I think, these, it's very important to be able to bring these stories out that show the country and the people, not as deserving sympathy or aid or help or, or any of those things, which of course, they do, especially at this time, but as this reciprocal quality of when we open up to two members of this community and culture, that how much of our own lives as two of us talking to Americans who would consider ourselves allies of, of the people and culture, when we open up to, to this people in these communities, how much it can offer and enrich our lives. And so I really appreciate hearing that part of your story.
Jesse Phenow 1:58:30
Man, wow, it's cool to be in conversation with with people who I think, hold that same perspective and not perspective, just acknowledge that reality. Because it's so true, man. And I think you and I can both attest to how indebted we are to these communities. And, and, boy, as I think about it, you know, they got the raw end of the deal where I got a community and a loving family and a house and a career and place to travel to and experiences and they got a ugly, hairy white dude. So I think that man that's that's the, the truth and you know it too, and I think it's it's just such a honor and blessing to be connected to you to my friend and, and to be a part of this movement that you're creating and, and developing that has such a beautiful mission of like you said, beating beating down those stereotypes and acknowledging that and Myanmar is so much more than a military coup. And you know, there's there's so much to be received and acknowledged that that there is the to gain from connection and relationship To these amazing people, so it's good stuff.
Host 2:00:04
Yeah. And I think also what I've learned from from your story and your, your examination of history, I think I realized that somewhat before, but it didn't quite jump out the way you expressed it was looking at the Korean revolution in the post war era, and on just the vagaries of history and how the the problem with history is that we already know what happened. That's some that's that's an expression that I've heard historians say I'm probably butchering it, but something along those lines that the problem with history is that, because we know what turned out, that's kind of, that's the only story we think that could have happened. That's, that's the one thing that happened. And so that's how we learn about what to find an era. And I think for anyone who studied the post war era, it's, you see, the potentialities of so many different groups and, and motivations and goals for the end state, that are, are all in this boiling pot together. And we just had the one outcome of the tatmadaw taking control and holding control viciously until present day that that's the history we know. So that's all we know, if unless we look a little carefully. But if you were to unpack those small micro moments, and even not so micro moments, from those years, you see how much that established history just hangs on this thread and how easily things could have developed down another path, if it was just a couple of things going differently. And that's true of really any place or any time have seen how how it just takes a certain exact conditions to give rise to what ends up taking place. And to bring that understanding to where we are now that this is a 70 to 73 year old insurgency as you've described civil war. And this is a unique time is terrible. And as awful as this is this is a unique time to give rise to a different set of potentialities, and as that younger generation is, are looking at it not as a zero sum game and not as a way to to rigidly define and protect their own group, but in this extraordinary, idealistic way that is, are not just words, but we're seeing them doubled down with that with actions and with actions where they're putting themselves directly at risk. Or they perhaps might not be in the country and at risk, but they're sacrificing so much of their time and activities and income and everything else to be able to give all to this movement, that this is we're sitting in another juncture that has the potentiality to move in these different directions. And every one of us matter, every one of our actions and our voices matter. And they might matter in big ways, such as taking a trip across the border as you are to be able to help communities there and bring back their stories. There might be smaller things that people can do a donation a conversation with someone from an immigrant community, reading the news or listening to a podcast like this. There are any number of ways to contribute to that momentum that will hopefully lead to one of those greater potentialities starting to manifest at this critical time when we really do have that possibility.
Jesse Phenow 2:03:25
Man that is that is that is the truth, brother. And I hope that man, I hope that folks will engage this moment for what it is and recognize the as you mentioned, the potentiality of of where we're at matches in in the creation of a new and brighter future for the people of Myanmar, but as an opportunity to bass to posture ourselves as learners, to engage each other as family and ultimately to contend for each other as this global village, you know, not just the urban village, but as a global village. And so man we're in we're in a fascinating and critical time jaw. And I'm super hopeful. And I draw hope from the young members of this community. And I believe that there is a brighter future matches for Myanmar, but for our global village as well.
Host 2:04:32
That's wonderful. It's wonderful. It's great to get a chance to talk with you and in bring your voice out to a wider community. And before we close, are there any final thoughts or things you want to leave us with?
Jesse Phenow 2:04:42
Oh, man, just a deep sense of gratitude to you for this platform and as I said, a call and a hope that those who are listening would get proximate to someone who doesn't look like them. Have someone who comes from a completely different reality and posture yourself as a listener, and then go from there. And so if you're, you know, aligned with where we hope Myanmar is headed, that I would pray and urge you to sit at the feet of folks in the diaspora or folks who are directly in Myanmar and pass yourself in a way that you can learn and become an ally, friend, and maybe even family with these amazing folks. So, thank you again, jaw. Appreciate you, young man. And we'll connect soon not your
Host 2:05:51
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