Transcript: Episode #330: Mission Aborted
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episodear.org/complete-shows/2025/4/3/episode-330-mission-aborted. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
00:15
The damage from Cyclone Nargis was quickly apparent some 140,000 people were dead or missing. Hundreds of 1000s were homeless, and 1000s of homes, schools, businesses and farms were destroyed.
00:38
1000s are living on the streets, and local hospitals are overwhelmed. Food and water is running out too.
00:45
Earthquake demolished an entire wing where nearly 200 monks were writing an exam. Rescuers are using drastic means to get to whomever might still be alive.
Host 00:58
At Insight Myanmar, we strive to highlight the resilience and struggles of the Burmese people as they navigate extraordinary challenges in their fight for justice and freedom. Through their stories, we witness acts of courage and determination, but also the complexities, hardships and uncertainties that come with such a monumental struggle. Our role is not to romanticize or idealize, but to amplify authentic voices, foster understanding and create space for deeper reflection, the people of Myanmar lead their own fight for dignity and human rights, and we stand alongside them in solidarity sharing their experiences and perspectives with The World. You Miemie Winn Byrd, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast.
Miemie Winn Byrd 02:51
Thank you for having me Aloha.
Host 02:55
So we are continuing our emergency coverage of the wake of the horrific 7.7 magnitude earthquake that struck the Mandalay sagain area. And we're talking with a range of different people, getting different perspectives on the many facets of this crisis. And the reason why we wanted to talk to you is because the last major, horrific crisis that we saw in Myanmar was the 2008 Cyclone Nargis. And so I wonder if you can tell listeners that might not be familiar, what was Cyclone Nargis? What was the devastation caused, and where, where were you, and how were you involved with what developed after the cyclone hit?
Miemie Winn Byrd 03:36
Yeah, so cyclone was in 2008 and I believe it was May, and it has it, you know, just cyclone that hits the Delta area of Myanmar, so very southern part of Myanmar, and it had a death of about 125,000 people and about 2,000,002 point 5 million or displaced and damaged. So that was the cyclone back in 2008 and my role was when us, under President Bush, offer an assistant to for relief, because, you know, the whole the Delta area, I awardee, Delta area of Myanmar was completely underwater. We had a lot of asset. We have a lot of helicopters, you know, that can move aid. So, and also, we had an exercise in the nearby we were doing a cobra goal at the time. So we had a lot of assets that are in the in that area. So we offer, we as a United States, offer to help. And I was in uniform at the time. I was, you know, I'm a retired Lieutenant Colonel US Army. And because of my expertise, or my. My specialty in Myanmar, the task force. The task force was called, called Operation caring response, and I was asked to come and help, and I was adviser to the task force that was planning that the relief. And I was also a advisor to Lieutenant General Goodman. John Goodman, at the time that the head of the task force so and you know, my we were trying to negotiate for access into the country at the time. And you know, they allowed, at that moment, they allowed five, five flights, c1, 35 flights per day, and but we weren't allowed to deliver anywhere but Yangon, so we had to leave everything in a Yangon airport tarmac. And we did it for like two weeks. And then after two weeks, you know, they still, after several negotiations, they still won't allow us to deliver those to the affected areas. And then at that moment, we get a lot of reports on the ground saying that all these eight, you know, material that we left, supplies were disappearing, disappearing. It was not in the hand of the the victims either. So, so after two weeks, President Bush called and said, you know, we're not going to go in if we're not force our way in if, if they were not allowing so we have to. We pulled out. So that was my experience. So I personally went in on the c1 30s, and with general Goodman, and I was, you know, a part of the negotiation, yeah, unsuccessful negotiation. And it was heartbreak.
Host 06:51
I imagine it was that anyone that was around for 2008 cycle in August, I was in Yangon when it hit. It was absolutely devastating, and something that no one will forget, and I think that people living through today no one will forget as well. There's a lot of questions to unpack about your first hand experience of trying to deliver aid into Myanmar after the cyclone hit, as part of the US forces in the story that you gave you, towards the end, you said that President Bush had made the decision that if the supplies are disappearing and not going where they're supposed to, and if the military is continuing not to allow relief missions to go to those that you know, let's be frank, are in the process of dying, that the US forces would not force their way In. Was are you aware if there was any consideration of the of even entertaining that as an option?
Miemie Winn Byrd 07:47
Well, there were call for r 2p I don't think, I think you may remember, like France and UK, they were talking about R 2p and be able to force entry into Myanmar, but on the US side, it was not a consideration. It was not a consideration at that moment.
Host 08:10
So without the US supporting that it, I suppose it fell through. Do you know anything about the the calculus or the rationale of what was being considered, or was it a non starter to begin with.
Miemie Winn Byrd 08:22
Well, you know, because AHA center came in, and also the neighboring countries in ASEAN didn't really want that force entry, they think that Aha Center said they can, they can deliver it. They can, they can work through the military. So then we just let them work that through, you know, at that time, we don't really want to anger any of the neighboring countries. You know, we always back then we are whole, whole strategy under President Bush is working with through our partners. So ASEAN countries were, you know, in Thailand, we were basing out of Thailand. We're flying out of Bucha into Myanmar. So we really don't want to also, you know, anger our our allies and friends at that moment, right?
Host 09:20
So it was based more on the relations and intentions of ASEAN and the the AHA center, and as I recall it, the feelings, the one of the reasons that the military was said to be so reticent to accepting American assistance, one was the fear of invasion, that this was a they're always afraid of, just a US invasion. Let us not forget, this is not so long after Iraq and two, that it was just simply embarrassing that it would show that you you had a foreign country from halfway across the world that was aiding and providing for people that were suffering when the military wasn't doing anything, which is. Kind of expose their their inability or or their incapability or disinterest in that is, what was your understanding as to anything we might glean from the military side of that?
Miemie Winn Byrd 10:10
Well, our it's hard to see what they're thinking, but what I can tell you is what I observed, right? So our first negotiation with general ni Suu, who is now the Vice President, or acting president. Now, he was the commander for the, you know, that the Yangon region. So we went and general Goodman went and negotiated with him in the first meeting. He was so shaking. He was shaking so hard because he was just afraid of one general. Goodman is a very imposing figure. He's he used to play football for the new, I think saint, New Orleans Saints. So he's a very, very big person, very tall person. And, you know, Miss we is short, and he was just shaking. And you can visibly see his hands are shaking. So, you know the fact that they were afraid of American, American, you know, invasion it, you know, based on that observation. And then also they, we keep on trying to calm him by saying, you know, I even personally said, you know, we're just doing it out of our generosity. We don't have any other alternative motive. This is something we do for everything, you know, for countries in need. And and he keep on saying that, Oh, we got it. We got it. We we, you know, we have it, everything under control. And we knew it was not under control, because we're getting a lot of report from inside and the the under the from inside the country as well as, you know, we flew over that area, and we saw the whole the whole area was underwater. It was all brown, right? It's no longer, we couldn't see the land anymore. So we knew you will need a lot of air assets to be rescuing people and also delivering aid. Because, you know, there were, the roads are underwater, right? So, so he but he keep on saying, we got it under control. And he gave me, like, the real he gave us, like, really weird story of how they going to build this wall at the, you know, along the the Delta to keep the sea water out. And we're like, looking at each other, going, like, it makes sense,
Host 12:48
yeah, gosh, I remember that time, you know, being in Yangon, my apartment was destroyed. It was probably one of the closest near death experiences I had, and that was Yangon. I remember, after learning what had happened, that Yangon was had just had some of the residual effects. I remember at the time thinking, I can't even begin to imagine how massive this would have been in the Delta. I mean, this was just in real time as it was happening, and trying to figure out the facts on the ground, which was difficult. And then as we started to learn more. It was just heart wrenching because, and I'm sure it was like that for you too, parked off in the parked off in in the sea. I was where being in Yangon, there were, you know, streams of people trying to to get out through the Delta and getting stopped by roadblocks, getting arrested, getting their goods taken, you know, having seen the USAID items on the black market, and it was just this feeling of absolute exasperation that you had these people that were barely surviving, you know, and every hour and every day was critical, and that the only thing the military was doing was was actively stopping people from providing it. And it's hard to put that feeling, that feeling of just anger and and frustration. I mean, there's no words to describe what that feels like. And I guess we're seeing something like that now.
Miemie Winn Byrd 14:11
Yeah, well, I mean, I personally, you know, I was the carry response task force was primarily Marines, and I was the US Marines. And General Goodman is a Marine General, so I was with the, I was attached as a US Army Lieutenant Colonel to marine outfit. And, you know, we, I was pushing pretty hard to try to renegotiate, renegotiate, right? But then, and then I'm seeing all these, you know, news coming in saying, like people are out there looking for American ship. They said they hurt them, and they were waiting for them to come. They just, you know, you know, they just needing some help, right? And when President Bush called that morning and said, pull back, and I just couldn't i. Just couldn't compose myself. I broke down in front of all the Marines, and so I had to run into the bathroom and and just, you know, just cried and cried and cried because, you know, I just knew we had all the capability to help them, right, to relieve suffering and provide aid, but I, you know, there was nothing I can do, and they were just so heartbreaking for me at that moment. Yeah, so that's why I couldn't, I mean, every time I talk about it, too, I always get very emotional because it was so hard, like you said, heart wrenching. And I mean, I can't be breaking down in front of the Marines. You know, the Marines will think I'm being an army, they would give me a hard time about that. So I had to run into the bathroom, and I had a good cry, yeah? And I called my husband from there, and I said, like the President just called it off. And, you know, people are waiting for us. They they need our help. There's nothing, you know, I feel so helpless. Yeah, yeah.
Host 15:59
Yeah, yeah, me too, you're bringing back memories. And you know, I You mentioned breaking down in that moment, in a place and with a group that one is not supposed to break down, and in your, in your in your career, did you ever have any other situation where emotions came on that strong.
Miemie Winn Byrd 16:22
No, no, no. That's why that is such a memorable moment. And every time I revisit it, it's always been heartbreaking and very emotional for me. Yeah. And now, like you said, we're seeing that again here.
Host 16:39
To ask maybe somewhat of a stupid question, but to just ask it, because we do have people that are tuning in that are not so familiar with the context and history of Myanmar politics and military. You know, when you describe this to people that are hearing the first time, one of the first questions you just get is, why? Why do they care so little about the people? Why are they just willing to let them die? Why are they so cruel? Why are they so cruel to not just not help but to actually put up roadblocks, arresting the relief workers that come and we're seeing even worse than that now, because they're conscripting young men and doctors that are trying to save lives in the Mandalay region after the earthquake. I'm sure you must have gotten this question many times, and people trying to understand Burma. How do you respond to that?
Miemie Winn Byrd 17:27
Well, I think that it has to do with their training. From the very beginning, they disconnect the military away from the population. You know, once, the moment you went into the military. There's a two different world. There's a, you know, normal people live, and then there's a military in their own world. And they do that on purpose too, so that you can have so that you won't have empathy for the people, so they no longer have that. And then it's it just, you know, reinforce, reinforce and reinforce. And they become monsters, rather than, you know, have any type of human empathy, and giving that, it's the you know, Buddhism. You know, they all, they all claim to be the protector or guardians of the Buddhism in Myanmar, but they don't. They do not. I mean, they violate, not only they don't live up to it, but they violate all the tenants of Buddhist Buddha's teaching, right? So, yeah, I think it has to do with they are groomed from the very beginning to not have connection to the the population, and they lowered over their population. They are the, you know, the military is the the provider, The Guardian, the the parents, you know, instead of the other way around. You know, the military is there to serve and protect the people they don't have. That, that principle, that idea, so, and also, you know, many time the people that ended up in the top are, they're very selfish. They're all about themselves and a small group of people, you know. So, I mean, especially right now, and that's one of the reason I don't call me online, you know, by rank, because that He does not deserve the military rank, and because the military, my military is no longer a professional military, is the organized crime, criminal militant organization, and they behave like one, right? So people keep on, you know, calling them or thinking that they are, if you're dealing with this military, and may Allah, you're dealing with organized criminal gang.
Host 19:48
Exactly. And yeah, there. This is not a government that that is not a word that should be used. And I appreciate what you're suggesting. They're not even a military. They're they're an organized. Crime Syndicate. They're a mafia organization.
Miemie Winn Byrd 20:02
That's right, and they behave like it, right? They behave like that. It's not. This is not a what professional military organization would do. They're there to service the people, to protect the people, and especially in the time of need, and they are bombing. They're using their air assets to deliver to to deliver bombs rather than to deliver aid, right? So it just, it just on, you know, inhumane. And, I mean, we people are asking, Are they even human at all?
Host 20:38
Yeah, right. And so it's really interesting, because when Nargis happened and you were in the room with some of these top generals negotiating, you're not a stranger to the psychology, the psychological makeup of these military men. And so that gives you an enormous advantage in in in the discussions and in advising the how to proceed at the top levels, in talking, did I wonder if you suggested or if how things played out, if it was an aggressive stance or appeal to their their better sides, reassuring or negotiation, or what was the the mindset in trying to find A way to provide aid, knowing the psychological makeup.
Miemie Winn Byrd 21:22
Yeah, we were just trying to ease them, you know, the fears, right? Because you can see he was visibly fearful. So we were just trying to say, No, we're here to help. We're here to help. And also the, you know, the fight flights that we're flying in at the beginning, we knew that majority of are not going to go to the people, but we were just doing it to build trust with them. So, you know, for example, initially they they had a call sign coming into the into to deliver these aid the call sign for the flights. You know, the for the planes, they call dragon one, Dragon Two, Dragon three. I told them, it's very aggressive animal, so change it. So we ended up changing it to like, very neutral, Sumo one, Sumo two, Suu three. Yeah. So something like that, you know. But you know, the guy just didn't know any better that would just their their call sign, so they were using that, but we did everything we could. But, you know, in a but, like I said, you know, whatever we did, they weren't going to they're not going to open up. So I would say it doesn't matter how much I know their psychology, yeah, you know they weren't. Their psychology is that they don't really care about the people. They don't really care about the people they have no Yeah, and you can see that there was a video that shows up at one of the general officer went down to the Delta area to review, and people were like, asking him to help. And he's like, stop asking for help. You know, he was very, very rough with them. And these are victims, and that's like, that tells you everything that you need to know about how much they care about the people.
Host 23:23
Well, I think it was 10 Suu that said, let them eat frogs, let them, let them survive with frogs.
Miemie Winn Byrd 23:29
Yeah, yeah. I think, I think that's what he said too.
Host 23:34
Yeah, right. And so this, that's, it's, it's, it's profound. It's, it's devastating, the sense that that at the end of the day, that they care so little about the people and see them as something so exploitative that there's no appeal you can make on any grounds that's going to get anywhere, because there's nothing to negotiate or assure or to to to find your way in, find common ground, because at the end of the day, you're on your side, you're caring about the suffering people that you just want to provide aid to, and they simply are not.
Miemie Winn Byrd 24:07
Yeah. So right now, you know, there are a lot of, there are other people that could help each other. You know, they, they the neighbors, could help each other, and they're, they're putting stop to it. And there was a this morning, I hear this woman from Cambodia bank, right when cambodza Bank collapsed, there are other people were trying to help, and they say, you can't go in there. And meanwhile, people are screening inside. And then, you know, like you said earlier, even those helper come in, they try to abduct them. And, you know, conscript forcefully, conscript them so. And you know, I was talking to, I was talking to Dr wenya, a who is leading the nug response side. And he was also, you know, the the same role when he was a. Joah, San Suu Kyi, and then he went, CDM, right? So he was saying that within three hours, nug was able to call or do a meeting of all everybody that's available, all their community leaders. And then, you know, they were able to quickly put out, you know, the guidance for those and he said that he has about 150 people in the call, and they they got them moving. And what they had to also do was that, you know, some of the their identity, designated, designated responder had, you know, they were also victims, so then they have to quickly shift to just enabling and empowering whoever is left, right? So they were, they had to do that. And then you do also, I think, put, you know, allocated a million dollars right away. And you do, you know, operate on a shoestring budget, right? So I just wanted to bring that up to show that what government that is, you know, that has the, the empathy and care about the people would do even with the shoe string versus military. You know, according to Dr weme, you know, he said that they had, like, 400 billion jets put aside for something like this, right? Because they every, you know, under Dong San Suu Kyi, they all knew that this was possible. This was going to happen. It just went so, you know, they put aside for an a billion reserve. And then they bought the the helicopters for for, you know, search and rescue and, you know, and she started sending, he started sending. Also a lot of responders oversee to learn about how to do response in this type of, this level of catastrophe. So, you know, if they had continued, you know, they would have been a much better position. And but that's also the, you know, that's what the government, you know that is capable government, right? True, government do, uh, Min took that 400 billion and then plundered it, right to other things, and it probably into his pockets, in his cronies pockets, and then we don't know where that helicopter is. Probably that helicopter was used to drop the bomb soon after the earthquake, you know. So, I mean, I think that that purchase of the helicopter was one of the, I think the item that they have put Dong San Suu Kyi into arrest.
Host 27:34
Wow. What irony.
Miemie Winn Byrd 27:37
Yeah. What an irony, right. So, but I just bring that up to show like, even with the very, very, very little limited resources the government should do and then, like, what the military has done so far.
Host 27:56
And you saying that, it reminds me of in Cyclone Nargis, how civic society responded in a very profound way that would go on to really change the trajectory of where Myanmar would go in the subsequent years. And I think that there's a through line between the way that civil society responded, in some ways, individuals and organizations that had never done anything like this before, because they just the suffering and the loss of life was so near them that people just picked up and did whatever they can, you know, rented cars and bought rice and took boats. You know, so many friends of mine doing things like that and and not considering themselves activists or political or concerned about democracy, just seeing that there was this need they had to meet and to support. And then from there, once those kind of networks and activity happened, then you started to have this even greater emerging civil society. And I think there's a very much a through line from that to as you're talking about the the nug even, not having having so little control, still having this foresight and this care to to do what little is in their control, to be able to help and play a role.
Miemie Winn Byrd 29:10
Yeah, and so they said they've been able to reach about 70% of the rural area granted the rural area they are affected, but because they're not densely populated, right? And then they don't have high rises, so the death and destruction was a lot less. And out of all that, PDFs were not affected at all because they're not living in buildings. So the PDFs jump into the to help, and then, you know, the Aung gave guidance to those that are able to provide so back to drawing on that civil society right, civil society capability and the willingness to help each other so they really empower that and mobilize that. And like in there's been a report like some people are using, having to use animals and elephants to. Pull stuff away, right? Because they don't have anything, right? So ingenuity and then just wanting to help. So I think just like cyclone Argus in this particular is going to be the civil society, and that's why diaspora, you know across the globe, has been trying to say is, if you really want the the A to reach the victim. Please help those that are helping on the ground. Don't go through the military, because if it goes through the military, it will be, you know, siphoned off, you know, plunder. And then, mostly, right now, the majority of the the relief that is coming from oversea is all in Naypyidaw, you know, rebuilding their, you know, their stuff, and not, not so much, out to the the area that really needed. Instead, they're bombing.
Host 30:50
They're fortifying their bases, and they're bombing and arresting those that are, are trying to help and are being active. I mean, even yesterday, they fired at a the Chinese Red Cross. I mean, yeah, right, right. Idiotic and cruel do they have to be?
Miemie Winn Byrd 31:03
Yeah? So one thing, one area I think people don't talk about much, is ba go area also got hit, and the BA go area is where his military industrial production complex is. So it's not, it's not surprising that, you know, they sent the Russian down to that area for relief, and, you know, response and but I, I've been told that, I heard that, you know, that those production factory got damaged a lot, and they were, I think they were inoperable right now. So maybe that will give people a little bit of relief. Because, you know, after this inventory of existing inventory of bombs and bullets are gone, they may have a hard time replenish that, unless, you know, China or Russia brought in, bringing the plane loads of it.
Host 32:01
Sure. Yeah, right. So with this understanding of the military's playbook in mind that they as they did in Nargis, as they've done here, they see these natural disasters as as as a chaos they can reap advantage from. They look at how they can use this to their benefit, again, not to the benefit of the country or even their people, but to their mafia, organized crime syndicate. How can they how can they take advantage of a terrible situation by making it worse and fortifying their position? So with that in mind, the question I have is, it's a two part question. First, what how do you see in their early response to this crisis. How do you see them playing that, that same strategy? What are they doing that that's that, that's showing you their thinking of how they're trying to take advantage in this way. And then the second part of the question is, what? How can the international community respond in such a way that it doesn't fall into the trap that they always set for it.
Miemie Winn Byrd 33:01
Yeah. So the, you know, they, not only they, they don't help. They have, you know, weaponized it. And then you saw that in during the psycho mocha this last year. And they, on purpose, they will open up the dam where people are sleeping to wipe them out, right? So those villages that are hit in near Napier they were, they have not recovered from that, that that a flood, so you know, and in this particular case, you know, they're going to use a lot of the aid coming in, especially food items, even like latest thing right in a couple months ago, when aa raided their their their base, and in that warehouse was the food that has been stored for military was at the WFP on it, so They have absconded WFP food aid and use it for military ration. So that's what they're going to do, because they are starving, and they are, you know, in very bad shape. And and second, the biggest thing is, he wants legitimacy, right? And so this, you know, interaction and engagement with the the international community, he's trying to bolster his legitimacy. So you know that that's what he is trying to do, and then like that that will help him with the, I guess, the election that is going to be coming up that he want to do, yeah, so that that's what he's trying to do. And the for the international community, international community response, and that's why we're saying, hey, go through the diaspora. Diaspora outside has really a lot of connection. As soon as the earthquake hit, I was getting reports already from out. You know, in this particular time, diaspora is very much. Involve and insight really depend on the diaspora help, right? So there's always going back and forth. So by helping and enabling and empowering and providing more resources to the diaspora, then they can find a way to get in there. But also, I wanted the international community to understand that there are two airports that are under the control of the Opposition Coalition, which is one in LA show right and one in in Rakhine San die airport and sandway Airport is closer to ba go and La show airport is closer to the guy in area. So you know. So if you know that, if you're able to have access to those airports, you don't need to go through Yangon. So that is an alternative that we did not have before inside grow Nargis.
Host 35:58
Interesting, have you heard any reports or plans of being able to make use of those resistance controlled airports.
Miemie Winn Byrd 36:05
No, that I don't know. I mean, if I think you know the ethnic you know groups, I mean, aa, and you know, MND, aa, you know, I think they would have to work with them to find out whether or not those could take on these large airplanes, right?
Host 36:24
So you're painting this picture where, when you're looking at the military designs, you know, they're they're trying to to just have a complete win on on all aspects of how they're controlling this crisis. You know, number one, they have legitimacy, or they're trying to get legitimacy through it. Number two, their stocks are completely decimated, and they're trying to have access to to goods that they can give to their soldiers, which will make them more effective in killing and and assaulting the population. And three by by having a natural disaster that strips the people of those resources, and then preventing resources from getting them, they're destroying their morale, maybe destroying their lives. Along with that, they're suffocating them, as they've done for so many decades. And so this leaves the obvious question of, you know, when you look at international aid coming through, coming through formal structures of the UN or ASEAN or AHA center, you know what? Whatever we're talking about, the intent to want to help it when you see the reality of what these goods are doing. You know, it's so tragic to say, but it one is almost left with this thought that doing nothing would be a greater net good than doing anything. If it's the military channels that you're going through. Would you agree with that?
Miemie Winn Byrd 37:39
Yeah, in a way, it is, it is, and I'm sorry to say that, but if they really want to help, you know, they don't have to go through the military. There are many ways. So for example, if AHA wants to help, they have many diaspora living in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, that are helping into, you know, get trying to help aid. You know, getting aid into the country, and they can just empower them, give them more resources. You know, that will go a long way than them coming in and doing that through the military channels. Because I will, I will, we will be surprised if 10% gets to the the actual victims, right? So, but the, What? What? You know, they may want legitimacy, but every this incidence is telling the people of Myanmar that military is incapable and they are not. They're they're losing even more legitimacy in the eye of the people, and I think to a degree too, I think that, since they started bombing, the international community, also know that, right? So what's going to happen is we probably gonna see a lot more joining the PDFs after this, because they may have lost everything, and they they're pissed. They, you know, they're they're angry. They're angry so they have nothing to lose, right? So I think that that's what so every time they do this, people just get angrier and angrier. And they all know that, you know, as long as the military is there, this military not, you know, of course, countries need military, but they need professional military. They don't need the criminal gang, right? As long as this criminal gang is, you know, in Napier, they even though they don't think that it affects them, it will affect them like this, because Myanmar is a disaster prone area, you know that we're expecting because, you know, more more cyclone and more. You know floods. And as long as those guys are there, people will suffer. So if they don't think that it affects them now it will, you know, well, we don't care what happened in napito, you know, we just have to live our own well, you can't, right. It affects and I. This is demonstrating that so people will be more likely to, even, you know, angrier and wanting the military, this military, this criminal gang out of nabito,
Host 40:14
Sure. And you know, I appreciate your comments about the role that the diaspora has played at the same time there's there's something quite saddening about just the level of burden that's been placed on this diaspora community for four plus years through disasters and conflicts and atrocities and everything else, and as as resilient and generous and sacrificing as this community has been to keep finding a way to to resist and to set up parallel organizations and civic society from afar. This is not, generally speaking, a a well off, wealthy diaspora that has a lot of funds to spare. It's a lot of sacrifices that have been made. And that leads us back to the international community's response. And you know, you, you've made you and so many other guests on this platform and elsewhere have have really made the strong argument that going through military channels will not only not reach those desired places, but it will actually be used to create greater harm than than simply doing nothing, when the answer seems so clear to us in terms of those local networks and civil society and and and groups on the ground that are that have a proven track record of being able to help. The answer seems so clear that this is who to support, and yet the formal mechanisms and structures of the international community, somehow it doesn't. It's hard to work. It's hard to adjust to how the reality is, so, what are your thoughts on the likelihood, or what needs to happen in order to make that shift?
Miemie Winn Byrd 41:49
Um, you know, that's why a lot of the diaspora has been, you know, by lobbying, lobbying their government to find a different way. Yes, military is utilizing weaponizing, you know, international system, exploiting the international system to get its way, even though, you know, as you know, only 21% is under its control. But it just happened to be the large population, and whereas the opposition has, you know, nearly 80% or nearly 40% under control. Another like 40% is, you know, under contest. So the we just the international system is such a hardened way. You know, it's not that flexible, but if they wanted to be, I guess it has to do with the political will, political will of the people that are in the international system. You know, so and then also, Myanmar doesn't get that much air time. You know, many of the policy maker are not aware. I mean, so many times they don't even know where Myanmar is, or Burma, or what is Burma Myanmar is at the same country, type of thing. So we have been as a diaspora, we've been trying to get more more international media to cover it, right? That's the only way to get more, you know, information about Myanmar. And many times people will say, Oh, my environment is so complex, we can't do anything. No, it is complex. Everywhere else is complex. But if you don't pay attention, you don't know where the opportunities are to before intervene, right? And if you don't know, you're not paying attention when you intervene, you might intervene in the wrong way. But first, number one, first part is, understand it, pay attention to what's happening. So that's why, since the, you know, the beginning of this earthquake, we are trying to get more diaspora and and friends of the, you know, non Burmese friends out there like you, making these type of programs to get the word out. And it was really wonderful. Tony Chen from Al Jazeera was luckily inside the country, and he was able to report what was happening. So it was really, really a shot in the arm for us. But also, as you said, diaspora is tired. Is burdensome, but diaspora also, again, this is kind of like is rather putting another, another energy in, back into the diaspora. Actually, people are more motivated now to help. So in diaspora, I, my, my, my, I'm just so amazed at the diaspora. You know, they have been really this whole resistance is funded and, you know, assisted by the diaspora for four years, and then when the earthquake hit, they all rally again, and they open up their their. It's their purse and and doing it again. So I'm just so amazed and admire the Myanmar diaspora. So Myanmar, meaning, like all ethnic group and many diaspora, you know, in last four years, they sold their houses, you know, and they will use their money. They're put aside for more down payment for house. They will use it all to support the the resistance. It's amazing a woman. I know some people, they work overtime on purpose, and they working, you know, the very basic job, like cleaning and, you know, janitorial service. And they will work overtime. And all the overtime, they will donate to them.
Host 45:42
The generosity is extraordinary. And it's, it's, it's, um, you're speaking about generosity of of the diaspora to their country, but the generosity from to any outsider who's come and spent time in in Burma, you can't but walk away from feeling a sense of generosity and human spirit we never knew really existed. And I just want to tell one anecdote that that is is somewhat removed from everything that we're saying. It's, it's, I think it's a very heartwarming anecdote, but it also it brings out this sense of generosity that you almost can't wrap your mind around. So I had, well, I was living in Yangon. I had an American friend who came over, and it was his first visit there. And as he didn't know much about Buddhism, as I was talking about the monasteries and such, he was actually a digital nomad, and so he was working from there. But when I told him that it was possible to ordain temporarily for whatever period of time you wanted, and have the experience of being a renunciate and living by the monastic code, he was fascinated. So he put all of his digital nomad work down, all of his all of his duties, and he went to a monastery to go find a place to ordain. Is very serious. You know, even if it was just for a week, he really wanted to do it right and understand the code, the read up on the vinia, the monastic discipline, and do everything the right way. And as it happened, he ended up going, it was hot season, so I helped him get to a monastery in town, g where it was cool. He it was a very remote monastery, so the problem was that it was basically just him and the Sayadaw that were living there. So, and why I say that was a problem was because he was trying to do everything the right way, and he didn't have a lot of examples to look around and to see how other people were behav how other monks were behaving. So he can just kind of follow in line. So as you know, the way that that that one bathes in, in much of Myanmar is with a concrete water tank that is outside. You never take off all of your clothes, but you you carefully find a way to wash your full body while, while having clothes on and then changing also, all in public without ever, ever having showing any, showing much of the skin as as he was watching the Sayadaw Do it, do this, and trying to copy, he, of course, had was, was flumixing everything, and just didn't really know how to bathe himself. And so very politely he can't. He went to the Sayadaw, and he said he asked for, tips and guidelines of you know how, how he was to bathe in this manner, because he wasn't accustomed to it. And the Sayadaw said, Oh, that's right, you know, you're from the US. You don't have kind of bathing like this. Okay, let me, let me think about it. The next morning, he was awoken by all of the sound outside of where he was sleeping. And he he, he saw they were building something, and he went to the Sayadaw and asked what they were doing, and they said, Well, we realized that you don't know how to take baths in the way that our Myanmar people do, so we built you a bathroom so that you can, you can so for your one week stay as a monk, you can feel comfortable bathing in the way that you're accustomed to. And I mean this, this moment, changed this guy's life. You know, he said that that never in his experience had he imagined this kind of generosity occurring in the world? And you know, then, after his week was done, the Sayadaw said, I'm getting even goosebumps sharing this, because it's just such a beautiful story. The Sayadaw said to him, you know, anytime you want to come the kuti you stayed is yours. The bathhouse is yours. If you want to stay a month, hey, if you want to stay the rest of your life, we'll take care of you. And I can't tell you how many friends I've had and how much that's happened to myself. This is more of a Buddhist example, monastic example, but I think it pervades all the different regions that one finds oneself in this sense that that we will provide for you. We don't have much but, but what you need, you'll get the best, and we'll take care of you. And so I think that, you know, that's Myanmar is really a land of contrast and extremes, because you find that extreme generosity we're touching upon now and then we find the extreme almost baffling. You know, animalistic cruelty of the crime syndicate that you talked about before. There's somehow coexisting this struggle. But, you know, I think this generosity that's bringing the diaspora to keep giving and doing more to bring Myanmar through, and I think also those like me that are not from Myanmar, but that have have been a recipient of this extraordinary generosity, feel. Mean, will feeling brought into that world and looking at how, how can we, how can we take this as our time to reflect, you know, humbly on what we've been given and see what we can do back at this moment. And so, yeah, just some reflections on generosity there.
Miemie Winn Byrd 50:19
Yeah, well, you know the world, from time to time I see the the the report on generate the most generous nation, and you know, we, Myanmar, tied with us, and the top spot for a couple of years. And you know my eyes at the bottom of the index. You know, the income per capita versus us is on the very top. So they match, and you're absolutely right. They most of the time, they're very generous, and they're very understanding, and that's I think the military has exploited on that. Exploited on that. That's why they were able to, you know, do the exploit and take advantage of the people's good nature, people's good nature. And you know, another story of you, one of my friend in in inlay area. You know, inlay is most of the time. Moe, a lot of the foreigner goes to visit. And her father started this restaurant, not because to sell food, but he started seeing all these foreigner coming by, and he said, Oh, are you hungry? If they're hungry, and then they've wanted to taste Burmese food. He said, Oh, come on in. And he will invite into his house and beat them, you know, like the stranger from like they look totally different. And it ended up being a restaurant. And a restaurant is still nonprofit. I mean, they don't ask for they, you know, there was no, no price to the menu. But if you want to donate at the end of, you know, after your meal, you can donate, and then she, she continue, and she uses the money to fund, like local schools and stuff like that. Yeah, so that's the generosity of Burmese people.
Host 52:10
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you, you reference how there's one of the the challenges to breaking out of this conformity of this international order, that, that that that that comes to benefit the military is political Well, political will is what's needed to be able to shift that needle. And that's what's been so hard. And so there needs to be this narrative that goes outside the diaspora to to reach the hearts and minds of others that are going to put pressure to demand that change. And you know, right now we have a very narrow, winding, I would say, tragically, it's already starting to close.
Miemie Winn Byrd 52:45
Well, when you know the coup occurred Myanmar, everybody said it can't be done. The Myanmar military is too big to fail. They have too much firepower. Because on the opposition side, they just have a handmade, you know, the muskets, right? They started it. But the thing was, the Myanmar people has that resolve, you know, they want democracy. They want to be free. They want to be free from the under the military boots. And this time around, 10 years of, you know, transition has forever transformed their skill set as well as their mindset. So with that, odds they, you know, they started to push back to the military, and now is military, with all their mighty power firepower, they're on the run, and that's why they're having to use the international system to, you know, to to oppress, to to hang on to their power. So, you know. And in all that, the resistance and push back to the military has all is a bootstrapped, you know, it's all by the Myanmar people and Myanmar diaspora, really, very little help come from the funding come from the international governments and organizations. So, you know, just if we can just give that little bit extra, you know, help to the the people of Myanmar, they can get, you know, the thing was, if they were left alone, just military and the resistance, they would have beaten them already. It just that China came in and and put a whole thing behind military, and also Russia. So two major power is propping at the military. Meanwhile, the people are on their own doing this, right? But it doesn't matter, though, however, assistant that China give military as long as people do not accept military, they cannot and plus, on top of it, military is corrupt. Like I said, it's not a professional military. The reason they're also losing is not only the people you know resistance, you know ingenuity and commitment, but it's all they are so corrupt. You. They're collapsing on their own, corruption, their own, because their own people don't even like the leadership. So that's why we saw a lot of defection from the military, you know, and then they have lost the will to fight. And that's why he has to abduct people, you know, to conscript. So knowing all that they're so close to the end state, they're so close because 80% of, you know, like I said, only 20% of the country is under the military control, and then everybody else control others, and then 40% is under contest where they're losing every day. And that's why they can't even stop bombing if they've because they only have the air asset left every time on the ground, every fight, military use it. So anyways, I just wanted to say is that I'm my admiration for the Myanmar people in Myanmar diaspora commitment. And you know, if the international community could just help them a little bit, I think that we can get to the end state.
Host 56:03
What form of help would you think would be most effective to to achieve that just little bit of push over the edge?
Miemie Winn Byrd 56:11
So humanitarian assistant, right for the people that are like 3.5 displaced, as well as communication, the reliable communication, reliable and secure communication. Myanmar diaspora has been able to push in a lot of Starlink into the country. But Starlink is really, really becoming very expensive. So it started out with $250 per month is now like double, so it's really difficult. So if they, if they don't want to provide any type of lethal assistance, something like communication equipment and just the humanitarian assistance for those that are displaced, would be very, very helpful.
Host 57:01
Another thing in thinking about the international response, of course, the closest country, geographically, culturally, in other ways, is Thailand. There's a lot that has been said about Thai Burmese relations. And so as you look at Thai policy towards Burma and the way that Burmese military looks towards Thailand, what are thoughts to come to mind, especially during this crisis.
Miemie Winn Byrd 57:23
Yeah, Thailand, anytime the Myanmar, you know, is unstable, something happened inside Myanmar, uh, Thailand always get the brunt of it, you know, people run into that and, you know, and many all the time, not many times all the time, They it. The problem is the military created it, right? And it's funny that military always looked down on Thai military, because long time ago, you know, they, they, they invaded Thailand and sack the utia, right? So they even to today, unfounded. They always look down on Thailand, and they say they think that anytime they want to invade Thailand, they could, you know, that's all they have in their mindset, and it's been reinforced in their training as well. So, you know, but Thailand is a very tight Thai military. You know, Thai military is a very professional military, unlike, unlike theirs. But nevertheless, though they always look down on Thai military as a little brother. You know, they can always beat them anytime they want to, is what their their mindset is, but Thailand gets the the brunt of the Myanmar instability and all these instability are always, always caused by the Myanmar military.
Host 58:48
It's that's really shocking to hear for several reasons. I mean, one is that we, we hear about these strong military, military to military ties, that that that the Thai military is has been sympathetic towards the regime. And I think, you know, it's somewhat ironic to think that the the ways they may have supported the Burmese military regime that they're being looked down on as as as a little brother that could be taken advantage of or or run over anytime that that they think, I mean, I look at the different capabilities, I don't, I don't know how that would actually stand up. But do you have any sense that the the Thai counterparts are aware of the way that they're being looked at?
Miemie Winn Byrd 59:33
I'm not sure. But you know, they have you, they have used Thailand, right? But Thai former foreign minister went in and then used up all the, you know, reputation. And then Myanmar military didn't live up to any anything they have agreed to, right so. And then Thai looks like in front of the international community. They lost their face. And same thing. Mean, every time Thai will do for Myanmar military, they are just using Thailand. And in fact, you know, Thai reputation could be tarnished by dealing with the military like right now, bins tech, right they have mail line is using them to, you know, make himself bolster its legitimacy. But whatever the agreement they get, they're not going to live on it. They don't think they have to liver because Thai will just go along anyways, because they just their little brother, right? So, you know, it may be in the front they will be very nice to them, and you know, people are very affable and very charming, but in the bag, they really don't have any respect for Thai military.
Host 1:00:47
That's, that's, that's just unbelievable to hear. I've never heard that, that side of it, and especially in in Asia, where face is so important, and and in Thailand, certainly, face is is so important, and not being shown up or or embarrassed, or ashamed or something. And you know, this just seems like a very embarrassing loss of face that, frankly, is kind of surprising that the Thai military would would tolerate, or would you know, would not know about. But if this is what, if this is how the Burmese military leaders are speaking in private, you know, that's something certainly to get out there and to be known,
Miemie Winn Byrd 1:01:29
yeah, yeah, yeah. Just, I just want to caution Thai military to be do not let yourself be used by the Myanmar military leaders, because they will do that. Yeah. I mean, we just need more. We need to go beyond the Myanmar diaspora to the international community, and then we need to find we would like the international media to really cover regularly of what's happening in Myanmar, and because it is really Myanmar is a very critically important country in Indo Pacific region. Myanmar is where South Asia, Southeast Asia and China, meets, and is a very strategic location. And so Myanmar stability means the regional stability. If Myanmar is not stable, then you know, we know all kinds of bad things are happening with the the the trafficking scam center. So really, I think worth it to pay attention and Myanmar freedom, Myanmar freedom and Myanmar democracy will be the best thing for bringing stability to Myanmar as well as to the region.
Host 1:03:02
Thank you for listening to this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast. We hope you liked what you heard today, and if so, you might be interested to know that over the years, we've built an extensive archive that now numbers in the hundreds of episodes, all of which are freely available to anyone who wants to listen. Our latest estimate is that it contains over 360 hours of interesting, thought provoking and even inspiring content. That's 15 days of continuous listening for those willing to forego sleep. In other words, there's a lot there. These past interviews capture the story struggles and triumphs of Myanmar's people, along with the insights of foreign allies and observers who've played a role in navigating these critical moments, there are also more than a few discussions covering spiritual journeys thrown in as well. Together, our archive forms a rich tapestry of perspectives documenting pivotal points in the country's history and offering a deeper understanding of its complexities. However, producing episodes and maintaining this archive takes a significant investment of time and resources, and we rely on the support of listeners like you to keep it accessible. If you found value in what we offer, whether through today's episode or a deep dive into our past discussions, we invite you to help sustain this work. Your contribution allows us to maintain and continue expanding this archive, as well as producing new episodes free of charge. Consider making a donation at insightmyanmar.org/donation.