Transcript: Episode #328: Shaken Faith
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Host 00:08
If this is your first time listening to our podcast, welcome. Our programming brings a diversity of voices connected to Myanmar to share their perspectives, thoughts and reflections about what has been happening there since the military coup. All of our guests share one thing in common, a deep personal stake in the ongoing crisis, and it's an honor for us to be able to bring their voices into your earbuds. But however difficult it may be to hear some of their stories, we hope that you'll come away with a deeper and more nuanced understanding of what is happening there.
Brad 01:52
And welcome back to another episode on our ongoing coverage of the earthquake in Myanmar and its After Effects. Today, we will be talking about an often overlooked community in Myanmar, one that has suffered disproportionately and very significantly. I'm talking, of course, of the Muslim community my guest today, tu. Thank you very much for joining us and bringing your expertise to the table. I want to give you the opportunity to introduce yourself directly to our audience before we begin.
Htuu Lou Rae 02:19
I'm Htuu Lou Rae, a founder and coordinator do a coalition of activists and organizations led by Burmese people from Burma and the Burmese diaspora.
Brad 02:37
Okay, excellent. And, and specifically, we're going to be looking at the Muslim community. So we know, for example, that the earthquake has devastated much of Myanmar. But what I think a lot of people are not connecting the dots on is that the earthquake itself happened on a Friday, and this Friday was a highly specific Friday, a highly significant Friday. Sorry for the Muslims. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Htuu Lou Rae 03:06
First of all, let me clarify that I'm not a Muslim. I'm a person from mostly Buddhist background, and I I've been in touch with the Muslim community and, well, I've more data than you know most you know activists and journalists who are covering and providing aid to the you know, people affected by earthquakes because of the nature of my work. So last Friday was the last day of the last week of Ramadan and the last week of Ramadan. So specifically, the last 10 to 10 days of Ramadan is that the holiest 10 days of Ramadan, which happens to be the holiest month of the year for for Muslims, and the Friday, the prayer on Friday the Jumah, is the holiest of the prayer of any specific week. So it's so the prayer on last Friday was the Christian, the Muslim equivalent of, you know, the mass on the Christmas Eve. So even if for someone who's not so religious, I mean it. I mean you would see that person on in a mosque performing the Joah on the last Friday of Ramadan. So mosques, mosques all over the world, not only Burma, were packed with, you know, mosque goers and Burma was no exception, and that coincided with the time of the first earthquake, which was 7.7 in magnitude and and that, you know, in. That's not and also that's not the only reason why the death toll and the casualty among the Burmese Muslim community is disproportionately high. The other reason is successive regimes. I'm talking about, not only the military regime. I'm also highlighting, you know, the overthrown Aung San Suu Kyi NLD government denied the Burmese Muslim community from performing routine maintenance and repair on these spaces of worship, which, many of which are centuries old. So what is supposed to be routinely maintained and looked after, these historic sites were gradually turned into death threats, and result is the tragedy that we all experienced on last Friday.
Brad 05:55
And so I want to, I want to focus on that a little bit. So obviously this is just a really bad coincidence that the earthquake hits at the time that you would see the largest concentration of worshippers in the mosques. But you're saying that then the mosques, as buildings themselves, were disproportionately more likely to collapse and to trap the people inside, because mosques in particular have been targeted and denied repair. So they haven't necessarily been directly attacked by the government and and physically damaged by the government, but for decades, they've been denied the opportunity to make these buildings safe. And I assume, although I don't know, but I would assume that there are a lot of earthquake prevention steps that would that would be available today for buildings that were not available at the time that they were originally constructed, which mosques have not been able to benefit from. Is that a fair summary?
Htuu Lou Rae 06:57
I would say, you know, any repair and maintenance in general, not only that, and, and I would like to add that, you know, making buildings earthquake proof is not a very common practice in Burma. And then, because, you know, Burma is not a stranger to earthquakes, but earthquakes of this magnitude is once in a century affair. And, and, you know, so So buildings. I'm not an engineer or civil engineer or structural and engineer of any sort, but, but based on my understanding, there's no government, government or private body overseeing, you know the building code, and to ensure, if you know, if there's any, you know, structural improvement or safeguards to make a building earthquake proof, or even, you know, safe for living, because you know, if you've been to Burma, that there's, there's quite visible signs of, you know, poor, poor built quality. You know, even visible to, you know, non engineers and non experts. And you know, people would just, you know, move into a building and live just like that. And as long as you know it's standing and it it feels alright. You know, if someone can move in, you know that that seems to does the job. And then there's a lot of incentive for, you know, contractors and construction companies to skimp on the non visible quality of a building, you know, the structural quality of the building, because everything that you save can be added to your profit. And these companies are mostly profit driven, and there's no no body or government, nonprofit or private overseeing such practices and preventing such practices from taking place.
Brad 09:01
Okay, that's important context. But then so let's look at at after the earthquake. So the earthquake hits, we have a lot of these mosques being damaged, collapsing, trapping people inside with the rescue efforts. Would you say that there was a How should I put this less, less of a likelihood that rescue efforts would focus on people trapped in mosques, because these are Muslim religious buildings, or do I Is there no discrimination within the rescue efforts?
Htuu Lou Rae 09:37
Let's not talk about the junta led rescue efforts. So, so I just read an article on global new light of Myanmar, that Myanmar line contacted the Prime Minister of Pakistan, requesting aid from from Pakistan, and then he received a. Positive response, and he also tried to clarify some information reported by local media such as aravati. He tried to correct the number of that toll from the Muslim community, to try to reduce the number. And at the same time, he also mentioned that, you know, the junta rescue teams are, you know, like, are, you know, addressing the victims trapped underneath the buildings, you know, rescuing, carrying out the rescues. So at the same time, I've, I've been seeing reports from civil society organizations and also from from the media, that no rescue, gender led, junta led rescue team has, has, you know, given any assistance to to people trapped under you know, mosques, and you know, Muslim places will worship. So, um, so, so I wouldn't believe, like, I mean, global new light of Myanmar is essentially the junta spoke in the tool. So I would go with this, the information that I received from the civil society and the local media on this, I think the Muslim community has been bypassed by the junta in its rescue efforts.
Brad 11:31
And and I mean, that's not surprising, considering the history of the military and the relationship they have with the with the Muslims, but rescue efforts are very complex, as I understand right now. There is no central organization of rescue efforts. There's a there's a lot of local community groups, CSOs, working on this. A lot of people volunteering to to work in rescue efforts. Does does this discrimination also pervade non military rescue efforts to your knowledge.
Htuu Lou Rae 12:03
I would say there's a there's a possibility. Because, I mean, since before the earthquake, you know, the Burmese Muslim community has been facing structural discrimination, which not only originates from the state, but also from the society at large, for example. So, so I saw some comments under a news report reporting the damage of the places of worship in Mandalay and the death troll and injuries from such damage. And I see some individuals from the far right posting questions insensitive comments, such as, where is Allah? How come Allah didn't protect you and so on. And this anger, you know, many Muslim and that includes people in my social circles and and so this is, I would say, this is a form of communicative violence. And there's also, you know, attempts to rent houses and properties in being by Muslim, some members of Muslim community in Mandalay, and they were denied us. I mean, the owners of the houses as if they're Muslim, and reply that, you know, you know they wouldn't let them rent the houses if they're Muslims. And and such things are less common after the coup and especially now, but still, they still exist, such occurrences, and this, this incidence has been, you know, made public now because they've been shared online. And, of course, the persons who experience these kind of situations are anonymous, and then, but you would see the difference is that you would see there's so much under anger from, you know, the general population, from everybody, not only members of the Burmese Muslim community. It's at such insensitive, you know, treatment. And then you will also see these individuals from from the far right communities being ganged up on, you know, the social media version of a mob being put into their place. And then, normally, you would see back and forth arguments from like, about two or three people with these individuals, and it would peter out, and there's more individuals getting involved now. So this is some kind of. Uh, so, so there's a tragedy going on, multi layer humanitarian crisis, and at the same time, there's a silver lining in in the sense that the community is, you know, being more tightly knit. And then people, people are, you know, some kind of people are coming together to to and becoming more tech in the community, based on, based on this, the shared trauma and, you know, experience of hardship and evidence based faith in the community to co dependently overcome these adversary and challenges. And I see some kind of a, you know, renewed sense of, you know, cosmopolitan Burmese national identity coming, you know, emerging from these ruins and, you know, despair, if that's, there's a silver lining. That's, that's it.
Brad 16:10
I mean, that's is definitely a positive message that we needed to, that we needed to hear. But unfortunately, the difficulties do not end with with what we've discussed thus far. And I want to ask, while this is happening, and you're talking a lot about the the online community and and attitudes that are changing in the virtual realm, those are very important. But what I think we've seen in many places is that if, even if you have a lot of positivity in cyberspace, that doesn't necessarily translate to tangible positive action in the real world. And so the question I have to ask is the the situation now for the survivors of the earthquake on the ground, many of these people, obviously, regardless of religion, they're going to need food. They're going to need shelter, drinkable water, medical care and so on. What is what? What is the situation, Muslim or not? But what, what currently is the situation for for people trying to get these these essentials to survive in the coming months, and is there discrimination in the likelihood of receiving this type of assistance?
Htuu Lou Rae 17:31
I would say, I would say there definitely is discrimination in the junta led efforts. And I can rule out, you know, we can rule out that, you know, the possible discrimination in the civil society led efforts either. And the best way to overcome this is to, you know, ensure that a percentage of aid and necessary materials, life saving materials are handed over to Muslim led civil society organizations. Ensure that these organizations are fully stocked at all times. So that's one way to that's a fail safe in case there's any form of discrimination among the you know, civil society led efforts.
Brad 18:29
Interesting and and on the international side of it, because, as you say, global new light of Myanmar is not exactly a reliable source. It is a military mouthpiece, but the fact that they would announce that minhalaing reached out to the Government of Pakistan. That's That is interesting. Why do you why do you think that is because it makes it appear as though the military wants to seem favorable towards the Muslims and global new light of Myanmar is targeted towards the military's own supporter base. So why do you, why do you think this is going on? Do you? Do you think min Aung actually did reach out to Pakistan and and if so, why?
Htuu Lou Rae 19:14
I think? I believe the Honda is using Muslim, Burmese Muslim population as a bait to, you know, acquire resources for its own benefit, for nabito. And you know, it's, you know, they believe, I think the junta believes, you know, it's, you know, it's easier. It's, it's going to be easier for them to apply appeal to, you know, majority Muslim government of a majority Muslim country such as Pakistan, if it could present to to such countries as a government which doesn't discriminate, or are, you know, or as a government which also looks after if Muslim. Population as its general population. But I doubt any of the a perceived either from Pakistan or from any other sources, would ever reach the Muslim population. Even if it does, you know, it's it's going to it. I mean, the population is going to be the lowest among the priorities of the Navy law within the Navy law, the Honda's power center becoming being number one priority.
Brad 20:33
I mean, that's very insidious. But, I mean, it's not something that the that the military has not done in the past, but this, this idea that they would simply, essentially, it's almost like holding someone hostage and then convincing Muslim countries not to give aid to local CSOs and NGOs that actually would be able to help those communities, but try To get those governments to give aid directly to napidor, just for the military to then steal all of that aid, which, again, sounds cartoonish, but these are things that the military has done, and has been consistently doing for many years, and is well reported on. So it's, I think it's I think it's an important message to put out there to anyone in the international community who's looking to to send aid to Myanmar, to make sure that that aid is being sent through channels that are verifiable and that can be held accountable. And military control channels are neither of those two things, unfortunately.
Htuu Lou Rae 21:38
Exactly. And this similar, form of you know, system, systematic discrimination has been carried out against the population based in the rebel control areas, such as areas in the Khan so the same caution and, you know, practices could also be applied to ensure that population in those areas also have access to aid.
Brad 22:13
Yes, yes. I mean, I mean, this is definitely a message that we that we want to emphasize, that, I know the national unity government is trying to emphasize that you don't necessarily have to partner with the nug, but you do have to make sure that the money that you're sending and the food and the medicine and the shelter and the clothes and the blankets and so on is actually going to make it to the communities you're trying to send it to basic oversight and accountability measures that that would be in place with any any relief effort and and partnering with with the military led government is is not going to achieve that outcome, unfortunately, that is, that is the simple fact of the matter, and again, on the topic of the military, because they just, they just keep managing To find ways to make life worse for everyone looking, looking through the comments that you've made in the past, this is not something, I think, that we've we've covered in discussion yet on our channel, but I understand people who have volunteered themselves to try and assist in these relief efforts, people who are not working with NGOs or not working with CSOs, they just have, you know, two hands and two legs and a strong back, and they want to help people out of the rubble. They are being taken by the military, and they are being forced into into military service. This is something that we've heard rumors of. Is this something that you can speak to?
Htuu Lou Rae 23:37
Yes, I've heard of such reports from multiple sources, and there were attempts of rescues by various individuals, and they happen to be activists or dissidents that were on some kind of a list by the and have been on the lookout by the junta, and then because of these, you know, humanitarian efforts, they were identified, spotted, and were arrested and taken hostage, or were forced to fight in the in the front lines. Yes, I have heard such reports.
Brad 24:20
I mean, this seems this seems ridiculous. It seems insane. So I just want to clarify. Are you, are you saying that the only people who were taken in this manner were known activists or or have you also heard of just anyone being targeted by the military for forced recruitment.
Htuu Lou Rae 24:42
I've heard of young people between 18 and 35 who are not activists, who were identified and spotted and captured for construct of conscript capture for conscription. But not just any other person, but I've heard of a group of rescue team in the Kyi fully equipped, set to carried out a rescue mission from a rescue a trapped person from underneath a collapsed building, with the permission of the homeowner and a group of vigilantes, fusorti, junta Alan vigilantes arrived and started harassing the team, started asking questions, and then they called the police and you know, and you know, soldiers, and they arrived and asked if they have any permits. So the team asked, okay, we are, you know, we can apply for a permit across the procedure. And the conversation became, you know, he did. So the team decided to leave the whoever that was trapped in the building that could have been rescued and survived, maybe now dead because of this, you know, interference so I've said I've heard of such, you know, interferences. I've heard of such interferences, but no arrests. But no arrest of you know any other person, random person, who was attempting to rescue a victim, unless they're between 18 and 35 or an activist?
Brad 26:35
Yes, I just want to clarify for for the viewers who may not remember them, but the Pew so t are the they are not a joke. They have carried out assassinations in the post coup period. They are. They are known for their acts of violence and their pathological loyalty to the military. So being being harassed by the Pew so Ti is not, is not something that you can easily ignore, because that that could turn very violent. These people are known for that sort of behavior. Unfortunately, that's it's quite disturbing, though. That is very disturbed. Would you have any concept of why? Like, what is the motivation of the peus orti in in interrupting a rescue effort of a person, presumably the Pew so T were from that region like did the person who was trapped could have been a member of their community. Do we have any idea why they would want to interrupt in this way?
Htuu Lou Rae 27:32
So, so whoever that reported, and they, all of these people have to remain anonymous. You know, it was, it was a team member who was reporting this on social media. So they site there, they cited the reason as to ensure the rescue team was not aligned with any resistant force. So, so there could be some concerns that, you know, resistant forces could be disguised as rescue teams in infiltrate the junta control area that might, that seems to be their concern.
Brad 28:12
But, but you said this was up in Sagaing. Yes, in the guy I thought, I thought the majority of Sagaing was, was outside of the control of the military currently.
Htuu Lou Rae 28:24
But apparently there were soldiers and okay, and the police and you sortie, yeah.
Brad 28:32
So I mean, this is this, why would I just want to why were the soldiers not already involved in rescue efforts that that seems like an obvious question.
Htuu Lou Rae 28:42
I well, I believe, I well. I believe in rescuing any, you know, any, anyone trapped in the deadly or any, any earthquake victim is not the junta prior to, really, you know, since you know, the bombings and artillery attacks still continued. And this is all you know. Any effort shown by the junta in the media is just a front to procure, essentially, you know, resources to to rebuild Navy door to to to help, you know, Navy door survive the earthquake, and then, you know, whichever that's left could be resolved on the black market or re appropriated. And I think that's you know, that their their motive and agenda. I mean, why would what interests would serve, you know, what interest would serve the junta? What purpose would it serve for the junta to, you know, aid in any rescue effort it's only going to, you know, divert their attention and resources from the war which is their number one priority, which is. Just focus until now, even though you know the three brothers, Alliance and nug, has declared a ceasefire.
Brad 30:09
Yes, at a ceasefire, we should point out that the military have chosen not to not to accept and not to participate in correct if, in fact, have continued bombing campaigns in affected areas, which is a level of cruelty that is difficult to comprehend, I think, and so turning to the future, then what? What is the prognosis in in your view, based on what you're hearing from the ground, because it is sounding at this point like this is one of the, one of those very typical cases of a disaster that is bad that has been made unimaginably worse by the interference of of the government, of a military. People are dying in buildings who could otherwise already have been rescued. People are dying in medical centers who otherwise could have received adequate medical care. People are likely going to die in the coming months from disease, from exposure, from starvation, from from contaminated water, who otherwise can be saved. What what do you think is likely to be happening to to these communities, and what do you think can be done internationally to alleviate the suffering?
Htuu Lou Rae 31:31
I've been asked in I've been asked, I've had a few interviews before this podcast. I've been asked, How does it feel, you know, to experience all of this from here, you know, from abroad. And I said, I feel like I'm the narrator, a side character narrating a horror fantasy co written by H B Lovecraft and George Orwell with elements of, you know, totalitarianism, and you know, like incomprehensible, overwhelming sense of terror and certainty and dread. The only difference is, this is real, and there's something we can do about this. I mean, but it all depends on, you know, on will. Of it all depends if the national community has the will and incentive to assist, you know, you know, the vulnerable populations, because we already, like we kind of have the roadmap on, you know, what to do and which parties to work with, and what are being needed? And, I mean, all you have to do is, you know, contact a few of the nonprofits. Well, we're kind of kind of random and disorganized right now, and that is something that we could focus our attention energies on to to form some kind of a coordination organization, coordination, to form some kind of a to form some kind of a body which could coordinate these rescue efforts, such as conducting, you know, private assessment. Because right now, since you know Burma is there's no state function state in Burma. It's a multi jurisdictional territory. So there's no coordinated state that effort in any of these rescue activities. So an Aung cannot really, you know, fill this role. So we need a body which could coordinate all of these rescue efforts. And that is something that could take shape in days and weeks to come. And so, I mean, it's something that, you know, the international community could to, could oversee as it takes shape, and assist, and, you know, In assist, in bringing together and at the same time, the community, can, you know, reach out to the local rebel LED or civil society or private rescue efforts and. Um instead of the junta, and do what we can before something like this come into shape.
Brad 35:12
Absolutely, absolutely. I'm I'm grateful for your insights. I'm very conscious of your time. I know that you have to go to another appointment after this. It's a very busy time for all of us. But before you go, we always have a tradition on on our episodes to invite the guests to finish the episode by sharing any direct message, whatever that may be, whether it's something you think the audience needs to know, or just a message of hope that you want to deliver, or just an insight or a personal opinion. If there is anything that you would like to just directly say to our audience, I'd like to give you the floor to do that.
Htuu Lou Rae 35:50
Okay, how about I say this is more practical. I'm not an expert on US federal government, but what are the chances that the US government can throw in the frozen 1 billion to the $2 million that it has already pledged for the earthquake victims, and it can be managed by the US aid? And US aid is a more it's body that I would, you know, trust better than a new G, because a new G is, if you ask me, is a civil society organization pretending to be a government, and it's slowly losing support from the public. That has, you know, elected, it's some of its officials, and USA is more transparent, has a track record of being reliable, impactful. So I asked the public, you know, isn't that? Doesn't that make more sense and isn't also going to, at the same time, help the country recover from this multi, multi layered humanitarian crisis?
Host 37:20
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