Transcript: Episode #327: Between the Rubble and the Regime
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00:22
Friday's quake collapsed buildings and crippled critical infrastructure in a country already torn apart by a grinding civil war.
00:31
They say the smell makes it plain that there are still many bodies buried in the rubble.
Host 00:44
Unbelievably, the world is ignoring one of the most important movements of our time, the struggle for justice, dignity and freedom unfolding in the heart of Myanmar. The guests we bring on our podcast platform refuse to look away. Instead, they dive deep into the stories that matter of resilience and resistance of ordinary people standing up against extraordinary odds. While the headlines may move on, in some cases, we seek out voices and perspectives that are too often overlooked, and so we believe that Insight Myanmar is more than just a podcast. It's a platform that seeks truth, connection and solidarity with our guests And with Our listeners. You Meredith Bunn, thank you for joining us here at inside Myanmar podcast. Thanks for having me. So we'd like to get into some of the work that you're doing on the ground, and the critical relief and understanding of the humanitarian issues that are now developing in the wake of the crisis, before we do so, can you share your background with our audience?
Meredith 03:00
So I, I Meredith. I run skills for humanity. We've been on ground for many, many years, and we, prior to the coup, we supported in every location of Myanmar, primarily providing poverty aid and support, whereas Where's needed. Since the coup, we've shifted gears a little bit and kind of prioritized areas that are in active conflict, focusing more on evacuations, providing education, medical care, medical aid in active conflict areas, as well as land mine awareness, as well as land mine destruction, basically anything and everything you can think of, we try and provide and support to the people that are in need. Obviously, since the coup, things have gotten really difficult, and now this earthquake has really devastated areas that are in very vulnerable conditions, and let's just say that the junta isn't exactly helping the situation.
Host 04:00
Well, let's go more into that last point that you raised the it's, I think, something of an ironic, ironic understatement to say that the military isn't exactly helping with the situation. Can you flesh that out a bit more?
Meredith 04:15
Right now, a lot of areas are still under active attack, even after the earthquake, 1000s and 1000s of people are still buried from the aftermath of the earthquake and then now suffering from attacks from the junta. So when I say that they aren't exactly helping, I mean they maybe are taking time to take their photo op in nebucha, but are actively attacking civilians, which are currently recovering from previous attacks and now recovering from a devastating earthquake, and are now having to face consistent worry of when they will next be attacked by the junta. Right now in Saginaw, many of my teams had to flee areas that were being swept over by attacks and bombings while they were trying to uncover and UN. And retrieve people who were buried.
Host 05:04
That's horrific. So you're saying that your teams, your local teams on the ground, rushed to the sites where the earthquake had struck and were trying to provide life saving aid, and in the process of doing so, the military was attacking them.
Meredith 05:20
Yes, I mean, they don't really have any discrimination when it comes to attacking their areas, and so I think right now, they're taking this what they would see as an advantage, because militarily, they were losing their positions, they were losing locations, they were losing ground against the EA forces and PDF and this earthquake has provided them quite an opportunity, and so they're using it, not only to take their moment in spotlight, showing the international community that they are helping on ground zero, which is false, but also Taking back ground that was previously liberated, and that means that they are actively attacking civilians which may have relocated because they were IDPs or had perhaps been put, perhaps moved back to the area because that area had been liberated, areas such as in Karenni in San state, even sections of Khin are being attacked now. Obviously they didn't feel the brunt of the earthquake, but there was still devastation in areas in perenni
Host 06:29
at risk of asking the obvious, the military has publicly, immediately after the earthquake, requested urgent international aid to be able to distribute within the country, and so as they're asking for this aid, and as they're they're doing the stage publicity stunts to show how they're distributing aid, they are also simultaneously attacking those that are actually providing aid. So what's the thinking here? Are they? Are they? Is there no thinking, or is there a sense that these attacks just aren't really going to be known or get out, and it's more the public facing stuff that they can rely on.
Meredith 07:08
I mean, it's been their strategy for many, many years. They take advantage of famine, of various natural disasters, of current situations and health crisis, and they use it to their advantage to try and gain back some power, or gain power right now, when they're calling for aid, what they really mean is, we want you to help rebuild sections in Nippur, because that's all they really care about. They want to go to the Mandalay because it's a good photo op, and obviously they want to show international communities that they are. They do care about their about Myanmar, but they don't and and if international communities are smart, they'll see right through it. And I hope that the international aid that is going to come to Myanmar does not go through the junta, because it will, purposely, it will, it will inherently cost more lives if you're trying to support the country right now, if you go through the junta, you are supporting further loss of life. That is just a fact.
Host 08:09
Now you mentioned Naypyidaw and that that is their primary concern. Do you have any sense of exactly how much damage Naypyidaw sustained?
Meredith 08:20
From reports I was given, the hospital was essentially leveled, and sections of the museums were destroyed, as well as many buildings such as the ocean. I think some of the hotels received damage. Obviously, the the tourist attraction of the 10 lane highway was primarily destroyed. I believe that the airport is unusable as well. The level of devastation is limited in nipid because of the very few citizens that are there. Manderley is obviously a crisis zone because it has high levels of occupancy, a lot of IDPs had relocated from attacks to to Mandalay to try and flee attacks from in Khin or neighboring areas. And so the capacity of civilians was increased even more in Mandalay than normal. So when there's even a slight amount of devastation in that area, it's going to cost a lot more life in Nibiru, it's a there is people who are injured, but a lot of them are junta workers or junta family members. That doesn't necessarily mean that their injuries or loss of life is, you know, of course, it's bad, but we need to focus on areas which have been hit much worse.
Host 09:49
Just pausing a moment before we go back to the urgent humanitarian relief that's needed. That's really the focus of this conversation, but looking at the way this conflict has been progressing, the. Last four plus years, you mentioned how the military was basically losing everywhere they were on the ground before this, and then out of nowhere, there is this massive 7.7 magnitude earthquake. This is what someone referred to as a black swan event, something that that couldn't be foreseen, that just happens in the middle of an already complex situation, and now it's it's really anyone's guess as to what implications this has on either side of the conflict as it moves on. What's your immediate take?
Meredith 10:36
Well, my my opinion is, I know that the eaios and nug and Eugene PDFs immediately called for essentially a ceasefire to make sure that they that humanitarian aid could reach those in those areas who were in dire need. The Junta does not play by those rules, and even if they had agreed to a ceasefire, they would never actually adhere to it. It's it's an unforeseen event, but as much as people like to say, the junta is full of idiocy, it they they are quite smart when it comes to taking advantage of devastation, and their primary concern is getting what they want, and They were able to declare another state of emergency, and through that, they are able to create relations with several neighboring countries, which brings them money, which brings them legitimacy, and makes them look perhaps like the good guy, while they're simultaneously bombing civilians and burning villages.
Host 11:41
So it sounds like your immediate take is a concern that this could start to tilt in the side of the military.
Meredith 11:49
Absolutely, organizations in the US and large organizations have no ability to go through grassroots organizations and CSOs. They have they're going to have to provide aid through junta permitted organizations, if not the junta themselves. And so millions and millions of dollars are going to go towards aid. And I say this in quotation marks, because what will actually happen is similar to previous projects where the junta was given support for aid, and what actually happened was they ended up feeding their own troops, or the money was lost, or the money was put towards things that it wasn't supposed to and so international organizations are going to further legitimize the current situation of the coup. They're going to give funds through organizations that are permitted by the junta to go into areas such as Nebula, and we're going to lose sight and lose focus both the 1000s and 1000s of people who actually need dire help, and they will not receive it from the junta. And so every single moment that international organizations are in discussions with the junta, we're losing people who are buried and suffocating. We are seeing decomposing corpses rise, and the junta is still simultaneously taking their civilians down in various other areas to try and gain military control.
Host 13:12
I mean, there's nothing new here. This is the playbook that's been happening with every natural disaster of the past, and so there's nothing that should come surprising. There's a playbook, so to speak, and it's just, it is. It is beyond irony. It is. It is just a sick fury to to hear you describe that the the quote, unquote, aid money which would be given through military channels, intended for the help and relief of the people, would be used to exacerbate the harm and the suffering of the people. And you know, so often when it comes to Myanmar, we're we're holding these there's this, this conflict that comes to play of the the way that that things are actually working, and the way that international systems are set up. And so often the I think Myanmar suffers because the way that things are working are at odds with the the international set of standards that one would like to follow, which tends to favor the military. But this is an extreme example. This is an extreme example of using international frameworks to to purposely give money for an intended aspiration attended a use of that money, which will actually be the opposite, instead of relief, instead of nothing, it will actually that those funds you're saying will actually go towards creating more suffering than if it wasn't coming at all.
Meredith 14:36
I mean, it's almost harmful to say it, but yes, because unfortunately, these large international organizations, I understand that their hands are tied, but at the same time, there must be some kind of way to get around it. We can't let these international organizations to continue to exacerbate the situation. And I, and I say it with well meaning, because I. Stand, they must be frustrated as well. But those of us on the ground, those of us who are supporting people on the ground, and those of us with limited budgets but doing everything possible to help as many people as possible, are far more frustrated than them, because if we had even this lever of their budget, we would be able to help 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of people, but unfortunately, when it goes through the junta, it will never be accurately put down. The reports will never be accurate, and it will exacerbate humanitarian crisis.
Host 15:35
So this is a question we've asked other guests as well, and again, to risk stating the obvious or asking a stupid question, but to get your take on it, if this is the case, if it is the case that this, this, these funds going that so called aid going towards military channels will actually be used to increase rather than reduce suffering, while these local networks and and local organizations with An established history of being able to use this effectively and only having a modicum of those funds that if they had greater access, would provide immediate relief to those who need it most. If this is the actual case in your estimation, why can't this shift just happen in some form?
Meredith 16:17
I mean, the red tape that international organizations face is very bureaucratic, and I understand that even though the junta is sanctioned, they still have to get permits to allow their international staff to work in the country, which then allows them to find organizations which the junta has to then pass and say, Yes, you can work with this organization, but to get those organizations, if The Junta says, yes, you can work with them, that obviously means they junta aligned. But also, again, it comes with some international organizations not having necessarily a vast amount of experience with the map, with Myanmar on ground. And so it comes with levels of bureaucracy, a little bit of ignorance and a little bit of I don't know, good heartedness, because they do genuinely want to help, but it's when you get into the level of these large organizations trying to help. Sometimes it's, let's give farmers in Arikan state seeds, but their farm has been bombed. So how is that going to help things like this? It doesn't often makes sense, and that's why I say I don't mean it in the form that they're stupid. I mean it in the form of they aren't knowledgeable about every single section of Myanmar, and they don't know everything that people who have spent a lot of time on ground, conversing and actually working with various different ethnic groups in every single part of Myanmar would know, and it's, it's hard criteria to meet, but it's, unfortunately, we need people like that in involved right now. And it's, it's a hard thing to ask, especially with the situation in America.
Host 17:55
Now, I you're on the ground, and your teams are on the ground, and you've made reference to the horrendous conditions that you're facing, the conditions in the aftermath of the earthquake and the aftershocks, as well as in the military assaults on relief workers trying to save the dying. Can you, I don't know to what extent you have personally been to some of these places, or you have been in touch with your team members who have gone and carried out relief missions, but it has been somewhat of a challenge to be able to to to really get a an understanding of of what's going on across these regions. And so could you give us a detailed account of what you and your team members are finding?
Meredith 18:41
Well, it's it's hard, because we often visit areas that have been burnt down, bombed already. That's where we're called to. That's what we're used to. So the level of devastation we're seeing from the earthquake on top of the after devastation and prior devastation from conflict is immense. It's more than I've seen in other places when I was previously working on conflict zones. And the worst part about it is where we're called to in areas such as like Sagan and inlay, a lot of my team members in in Lake currently are saying that, basically every home is destroyed, and there's people who are, you know, they were never in a very good financial situation, and now it's either they have to leave where they have lived for a long time or where they were even prior IDPs and they had found a spot that was safe and things like this, and so they are being forced to move for different reasons, and we're seeing just homes, families demolished. And something that's really important, and I think should be highlighted, is the death is. The Death number is uncalculable, the number of. Seeing is uncalculable. We get calls consistently throughout the day asking people, asking, Can you help find these people? Here's their name, here's their photo. And in some cases, we have found their bodies and we haven't been able to let their family members know yet, or something like this. And the the amount of people who are dead but also trapped next to some people who are alive, is also highly worrisome. So we are seeing encounter well numbers of dead bodies. We have to get them out of the way. We have to move them. But that can also contribute to consistent missing persons, because there are other groups that are also pulling dead bodies out. And if we aren't all communicating, if there's no way to communicate with family members that we have found perhaps a missing person or have found the deceased, we're going to have people who are missing for decades. And unless we can confirm them alive or dead, we can't get that information. And so there is just, there's just a lot of people who are missing but still lying next to a dead body. And there's a lot of people who are dead, and we can't say that they're not missing.
Host 21:18
So often when earthquakes hit, there are disaster ready teams that have heavy equipment, that are trained in what to do in these situations, of how to how to save people, how to provide relief. Of course, Myanmar has very little of that. And as competent as your relief teams might be, and as much as they've been in conflict zones thus far, this is something, another task, and we've heard horrific stories of people taking hammers or gardening tools or or whatever they can to move, you know, heavy rubble of a multi story concrete building that collapsed. And so how has your team logistically been able to try to provide relief for a kind of disaster that I don't know if you've had the train, if you're you and your team has had the training or the equipment, how have you gone about that?
Meredith 22:09
A lot of the devastation we are seeing is similar to what we have seen in conflict zones. Obviously, in the context of the cities, it's a bit different. Personally, I've seen similar but, you know, we team members are, a lot of them are volunteers, of course, and one thing I've been doing is, we, I've recruited around 300 more people to try and reduce the risk of people going into areas and getting it injured, or, you know, people in a small amount of teams going in and trying to do too much with the kind of level of devastation we're seeing. Obviously, machinery would be ideal. I know that the junta has called upon the electric, you know, I can't remember the name right now, but the electric people to come in with their mini cranes. I think they're called cherry pickers, but I don't know what they're called in Myanmar to help it. Obviously that's not going to be enough. We need heavy machinery to move a majority of it. But my team, what we are prioritizing is what we can we're using ropes, levies, gloves. We're using our hands or getting on our hands and knees and pulling people out. It's ludicrous, but we have to deal with what we've got. And obviously in areas such as partially downed buildings, I've been trying to let my teams know we can't, as volunteers walk into a partially down building and pull out Rubble, because it's going to fall on top of us. So we need to leave that for actual machinery. But then we also have people who are thinking, well, there's probably people in there who are suffocating, who are buried, who are dying, and we need to help them. Of course, that's a priority. But one other thing that's a priority right now is also those who have who have gotten out of the rubble. We need to treat their injuries. We need to get them to a safe location. Something that people are forgetting is a lot of people in Mendeley are still CDM, or a lot of them have been hiding or have been moved by DPS, and so they can't go to government hospitals, even though they are overflowing, of course, there is a chance people could still be tamed, and so we're having to move people to other areas to get medical treatment, distribution food, making sure that people actually have some clean water, which is Not an easy task right now. And, yeah, it's very primitive in the way that we are trying to get people out. In some of the areas in Sagan, we do have access to machinery. We are very lucky to have some people who have offered to help us with some machinery. But in places like Mandalay, most machinery is owned by the government junta, so we're not. Going to have that luxury, and so we're going to have to make do with what we've got.
Host 25:05
And in the midst of doing all this again, lest we forget, the military is also waging attacks, not just against survivors, but particularly against relief workers. Can you describe the nature of how these attacks are playing out, and what your relief teams have to do to to keep safe when this is happening.
Meredith 25:29
Something that's been happening a lot is that there's an influx of volunteers who are heading like not just even who are part of SFH, volunteers who are going up by their own or with other organizations. And they're going from Mandalay, they're going from other locations. They're going by bus. If they get stopped at a checkpoint, we are seeing people being detained if they give their reason why they're going somewhere. Oh, I'm a nurse. I'm going to go up and help. Detained. If you're CDM detained people who are the draft age gap area. We've seen several young men being detained, and I say that in quotation marks because it's likely they've been drafted. So that's one level of attack. And then there's also, there's still high risk for aid workers and people dressed in first aid equipment and aid where, uh, walking around Mandalay, because there is still a lot of military, and the military is on ground zero not to do any help, but also for that photo op. And so we're seeing loads of reporters who are going to places in Mandalay, taking these photos of like military personnel. And what the junta really, really want right now is to show only government, hospital and ambulance workers going next to these environments. So if you're a volunteer, you're at high risk, because they don't want you seen there. They don't want the publicity for people who are not part of their, you know, not part of the government, and so they're detaining people. And there are people who've been beaten up and and then, of course, in other locations, such as Karenni and Sagan, people are still being attacked.
Host 27:14
And what do your relief workers do to keep safe in those instances?
Meredith 27:18
I have a lot of mechanisms in place. We wear RSF eight shirts so people are kind of a little bit less at risk. I try and keep in contact. We have networks of communication, so if we have someone keeping an eye out, we see police, we see government coming to an area, we try and clear out. We try and make sure that people are kind of safe and almost hidden, but it's like it's about being one step ahead.
Host 27:48
and now in terms of helping you and the work that your organization, as well as so many other community based organizations, are doing right now, what is the most needed? I know that funds are always helpful, but I've also been hearing that in some of these places, funds to to be used to buy the things that are needed, anything from rice to cotton swabs to whatever else clean drinking water. So much of this is unavailable in in some in some regions, given the devastation that was caused and so, and this might depend on region by region, but would you say that funds are still the most important thing, and there is a way to be able to acquire what's needed, or are we looking at really some kind of resources and supplies that need to be brought in from across the border? And if so, what and how?
Meredith 28:40
So I'm a big believer of both. I think that there are a lot of people who want to donate, but sometimes are concerned about where their money is going. And there is sometimes when organizations just don't have the capabilities to always show them exactly where that money goes. And so for those who want to donate funds, absolutely, funds are vital right now, we can get supplies in over the border. It just takes it. It's delayed a little bit, but we're still getting things over the borders for people who need it. The other thing is, items, life, straws, water filters, absolutely vital. There is basically no one with clean drinking water right now. Clean drinking water will stop the and prevent spread of diseases. People who are contracting diseases currently, it's similar to when it floods. It's spreading like wildfire. There are people who are contracting diseases giving it to others because areas that people are being medically treated are over whelmed. Diseases spreading rampantly, things like giardia, which we normally see during rainy season, cholera, it's up on the rise again because of lack of wash facilities, we need clean drinking water. So life straws, water filters, personal life straws, like I think that's what they're called, are amazing. If we can get a you know, enough of. Those people can have their own personal straw for clean drinking water that will protect many lives. Medicines, malaria, test kits, goals and bandages is very, very needed right now, flashlights, gloves, safety equipment, speaker phones, battery packs, what they call solar panels, backpacks, clothes, hide his vests, wellies, and just quite a lot of things I would have to say, but long shelf life food. Yeah.
Host 30:46
Thank you. That's vital. And I want to alert our listeners that the referring to the list that you just gave, in addition to the funds that are being requested. Of course, donations can be made to our wider nonprofit, better Burma, we are supporting the amazing work that your ground team is doing, and so the those donations will reach what you're doing. But and definitely don't want to underestimate the value of what monetary donations can do, but we also want to call out those supplies, and so we know that this conversation is going to be reaching a wide number of listeners. And really want to put a call out that if there are listeners with a background in any of the supplies and the resources that you name, to get in touch with us at our wider nonprofit, better Burma, or here at inside Myanmar, I know that speaking with you, Meredith, your your internet is spotty. You're in and out. We're in a place. We're able to feel this kind of communication and then talk to you as and when you're able to get in signal. So we're able to to have those conversations, to make those arrangements, to see what's possible, and then to make sure that they really get where they need to go through you. And I'm not sure if there's anything more you'd like to add on, on those needs or speaking to potential donors or supporters directly.
Meredith 32:07
Well, just two more things is in regards to the list, there's other things that we need, also, electrolyte packets. Of course, I forgot to mention that, but obviously medical kits and food are always vital. But right now, safety equipment is really, really helpful. And in regards to funds, funds are also vital right now because there are so many people without shelter, and we are having to use funds to prioritize moving people from danger zones, moving people who are injured and even pushing them in guest houses so that they can receive medical treatment and have safety as well. So that's just another level of where funds are going as well. It's giving them medical aid, it's giving them food, it's giving them water, it's giving them shelter, it's giving them some sort of support. So I think that's what a lot of people are forgetting, is it's not just homes and businesses that are destroyed, but there's a lot of people who just don't have access to anything, who's, you know, small shelter was destroyed, and are now in a position where they have nothing, they have nowhere to go, and so giving them that moment where they can actually get medical treatment and give them a bed is just we've seen people cry happy tears for getting in bed for the night.
Host 33:25
Right? And so we definitely want that to be a message that goes out there for those listening, if there is something that you can do, you don't have to be helpless in hearing this, that there is a way to help and to stand in solidarity. Meredith, we've also received some messages from people saying they have this or that background and this or that disaster place or even conflict zone, and they want to personally come and see what they can do on their own, whether they are speaking of flying in or of going across the borders. What would you for those people listening that actually want to come in person and then may claim that they have a background in being in such situations. What would you say to them?
Meredith 34:06
It's really, really difficult, and it sounds really hypocritical when I hear people like that. I feel that they want to help, and everyone who feels that they want to come and help, that's wonderful. You're a great person for even wanting to come and put yourself in that kind of level of danger to help. But what we cannot forget is Myanmar is in the middle of a war there. There is still a war going on. And if you come to Myanmar, if you fly in, you're still supporting the junta. If you're a foreign organizer, we just heard of a Turkish and also the Chinese rescue teams, which came absolutely so nice of them, wonderful that they came over to help, but they only are allowed to go to where the junta permits them to. So as a foreigner or as foreign organizations, international, you know, rescue groups, I think that obviously it. Helpful. But what we can't forget is it's another group that's going to in a just not even on purpose, but absolutely, absolutely. It does give the junta a level of legitimacy, and it does give them some support. And then, as foreigners, we also have to remember that we're putting other people at risk when we're going to these locations. So as foreign foreign volunteer groups are forming in places like Mandalay, there's a lot of foreigners who are missing but even the embassies who have reached out to me to try and help find people, they're preferring to use local teams rather than sending a bunch of foreigners out, because that draws attention. News is going to focus on that kind of thing, instead of focusing on the local heroes who are using no tools at all and getting things out and we can't also forget that it's going to be one more mouse to feed, one more shelter used up, one more person to protect. So while I absolutely understand or want to come over and to help, please think about what that could mean for the people on ground as well.
Host 36:04
Now just a logistical question, because we've probably all seen pictures of really looking like they're coming out of a classic disaster movie of those splits in the road just peering down into into a vast pit below where the road has been separated. It's been cracked apart. So just logistically in terms of getting around, how badly damaged are the roads? Are you even able to drive or to go from one place to another, as as you did usual? And this is again noting that that conflict has been going on for four years. So when I say as usual. You know, these roads have been affected by all sorts of conflict, but now the roads have been damaged even beyond the conflict. So, so just getting around, what has that been like?
Meredith 36:52
The roads are pretty damaged. I think that some areas obviously are along, like cliff side roads are way more affected. The main road going up from Yangon to Mandalay just has splits and cracks, and a lot of the busses just kind of cruise over it, as far as my teams have been saying, because we've been sending people up from Yangon up to Manderley, and they said that it was no issue in that kind of regard elsewhere the roads, like, for example, in Sagan, though there was quite a few landmines as well. And so the roads were already suffering devastation. So the the way that people are getting around now, there's a lot of people, more people on foot, which of course, brings them more at risk of stepping on landmines. There's more people moving in kind of Convoy which draws attention from attacks from the jumper and so it's harder, I would say.
Host 37:47
Yeah, I would imagine. So for sure, I know that all populations there, people of all backgrounds, have suffered equally by devastation of such a large magnitude earthquake. However, we do have listeners and donors who are especially concerned about the plight of children and just the the innocence of of having to be thrown into conflict and a collapsed economy and so much else and now an earthquake. So can you give us any background on on particular challenges that you're seeing among the youth and the children right now?
Meredith 38:23
Well, a lot of the main issues that we found in children, for example, one in our three children in arican state are suffering from malnutrition that was even prior to the earthquake. There's so many IDPs where they're announcing children to be orphaned, but they're actually just separated from their parents and all separated from family, and there's no way of finding their family, no way of knowing if they are actually orphans, no one, no way of knowing if their family is dead or alive. And so they're they're constantly left in a limbo in IDP camps, and they have no access to medical care or education. And then with this level of atrocity of the earthquakes on top of it, it's it's put them into an even more vulnerable position, because we, when we talk about IDPs, we often kind of think about, you know, maybe a small family, but the majority of IDPs, especially within areas in Sagan, are elderly, sick people and children, and so they're the most vulnerable groups, and now those people are trapped or are being attacked, and there's no way for them to go, and it's very hard to move people who are disabled, who are elderly, who are sick without causing them discomfort, and also it's very difficult to move children who are still looking for their parents or for their family who they got separated from. And so the level of concern for children was warranted, because not only are they suffering from a. Complete isolation from basic necessities, but also we're seeing the immense psychological damage that can occur from these situations, not just from conflict, but seeing a natural disaster like an earthquake, is damaging to people. And as I said, as I mentioned before, people, you know, there are children who are still buried, being buried alive. That's going to cause damage for a long time. And there are people who are, who are children, who are trapped with their deceased family, and that's why I think it's so urgent to make people realize we need to keep going. We need to keep we need to keep getting people out from this rubble. We've got to make sure that no one is buried anymore, because, like I said, it's literally a situation where people are laying next to their loved ones deceased.
Host 40:54
That's, that's, that's heavy, that's, that's hard to take in. Of course, that's not so different, except in perhaps extremity of what's been, as you pointed out, of what's been going on for four years now. I also want to ask about Mandalay and sagain and sagain hills in particular, this is a place that is home to many Buddhist monastics, of monks and nuns and novices that reside here and that have have been particularly impacted in Saginaw hills. You know, this is home to so many of the country's nuns, and has been for some time. Have you gotten any information on the sagain Hills, or just Mandalay in general, or the regions of how monks, nuns and novices and monasteries and nunneries in particular have fared a lot
Meredith 41:42
of monasteries from metida are currently providing shelter and care for those who have who were displaced from their monasteries and their areas in Mandalay. I know that, and I also know that our team that is heading up to sugu and hills is has been informed there is an uncalculable number of deaths, but that's just because of lesser reports. But there is a level of destruction, and it's important to get them relocated out of that area.
Host 42:14
Right? Okay, yeah.
Meredith 42:18
I think something that we really, really need to highlight is, I mean, I've kind of gone over it already, which is the, you know, the junta obviously taking this moment in as a military staff strategy, and also highlighting the fact that we really need to get aid through other means, other than the junta, because, as I said, it will get people killed. And also, we really need to focus on dialog between ethnic armed organizations, ethnic political parties and the nug as well. If international organizations talk to these groups, aid will reach those who actually need it. But not just that. It will actually get to areas which were thought of as unreachable. My organization is get able to get to areas which are thought of as unreachable because we go through ethnic armed organizations and and political parties. We get Garner that trust, and we go to those areas because we're able to have that dialog. I understand it's not possible for some people and for some organizations, but that's the only way to help people. We cannot keep this monotone, monotonous situation of consistently going through junta approved situations, because I think it's about time people in the international community realized it's a military coup. They're killing their own people. Why are we legitimizing it? We need to stop it's not a government. We're just we're talking to a to a war criminal. Why? Why are they doing this? We need to go through people on the ground. We need to talk to government bodies such as the Nuge, such as ethnic political parties, and we need to help people. There are 32 million people in need prior to the earthquake, and now that's 32 million is also over half the population. That's a huge number, and people aren't taking it seriously.
Host 44:26
It's a huge number. And I can't think of any other words, but this is an apocalypse.
Meredith 44:32
I think I don't know. It's hard for me to put it into words. What I feel right now? It's more like I almost feel as though, no matter what we do, and no matter how much good work we do, it's countered by well meaning international groups or something, and so by we're in a situation where sometimes, when you're you. Taking people from one location to another, no matter how many people we help, there are 1000s. There are millions more that need help. That is a hopeless feeling, that is hopeless, no matter how many times we manage to save someone's life, no matter how many times we're able to get children reunited with their family. And that's why it means the world to us. It still is hopeless the next day, because there are 1000s more saying that I doesn't mean that we're ever going to stop, but it's hard to remember sometimes that other people don't have this drive, and some other people don't have this scene, this this scene in front of them, and it's hard to remain hopeful sometimes.
Host 45:58
Well, you have referenced how you want a different reaction and response from the international community. Let's break down who that international community is and what you feel they they could be doing within the frameworks that exist now. And let's start with Thailand, because Thailand is has the has quite a long border with Myanmar and and there's a number of ways to to bring aid or humanitarian relief through those borders. What would you like to see from Thailand now?
Meredith 46:34
I would like to see them allow refugees from Myanmar stay there. I would like to see more communication with the political parties on the border. I would like to see less communication with the junta and less communication, less collaboration with them, the less deportation of refugees and IDPs, more support in terms of funding for famine and disease. There's a long list. It's hard to describe exactly what, what is needed from neighboring countries and from countries that are willing to have a dialog, because it should. It should be easier than to just say, I mean, it should be easy. It should just be, let's not communicate and collaborate with the junta. But the reality is so much harder, because places like Thailand have had a long communication and a long lasting friendship with the military junta, and so their line of process, of course, is going to go through them, but it could, through humanitarian means, go elsewhere and other international areas such as and groups and countries that could actually create dialog with the energy and Create dialog with other organizations which are supporting and who are on the ground and not collaborating with the junta, that would be a great start just creating that level of dialog, creating that level of collaboration and making sure that the less legitimization of the junta, the better,
Host 48:24
Right? Yeah, there is that, that long history in many ways, and we should also reference it's not monolithic. There are segments of Thai society, political parties and activist groups, and especially in the universities, that are very much trying to have a different kind of solidarity going forward?
Meredith 48:42
No, absolutely. I was just agreeing. I think also the difference is also between Thai citizens and their government. They're not unilateral right now.
Host 48:50
Let's open it up and look a little wider. Let's look at ASEAN and the hot the AHA center in particular, and the kinds of humanitarian relief that they have done in the past and that they could be doing here. What do you expect of them, and what would you like to see?
Meredith 49:05
I really hope that instead, if they must go through the junta, my my hopes are that they provide support in the means of itemization, instead of monetary giving two or $3 million to the junta is like throwing a glass of water in the ocean. They're not going to put it to where it needs to go. But if they give supplies to organizations on the ground, that doesn't always necessarily mean that, even if it's junta approved, that it will go to the wrong areas, they might be forced to then give it to at least some people who need it. So supporting the means of bringing supplies and aid is better for organizations such as them, because it cannot be as abused as funds can be.
Host 49:56
And then opening it up further, looking at the United Nations again, the UN is not. Monolith. There are different departments, different missions, different individuals involved. What is the UN currently doing now? And break that down however you'd like. And in response to something as massive in nature as this, what what do you expect to see? And again, what would what would you like to see within their frameworks or outside their frameworks.
Meredith 50:21
I think it's it's almost impossible, because, as I said, I understand the red red tape, and I understand the bureaucratic system that they live in. So I know that, as much as I am hopeful that they won't go through the junta and they won't go through junta aligned projects, I understand that it is likely to happen, and so something that I'm hopeful for is organizations such as UNICEF, instead of legitimizing junta aligned personnel, bringing in their own staff, who are highly trained from even even within Myanmar, bringing them and Giving that aid to children and creating an area that safe space for children, because that's that's vital. And then, of course, other sections of the UN providing health care and support for the aftermath, I would think that's that that would be more desirable, because, you know, obviously large organizations are very ready and willing to give funds to junta aligned organizations because they think that giving funds directly to them immediately will get that to the aid. But as we've already discussed, it gets abused by people like the junta. And so instead of doing that, actually bringing people from their organizations who are highly trained and providing this aftermath care is going to be the most vital, because there are not enough people who are trained in psychological rehabilitation, for people who are going to be suffering after this earthquake. There are not enough people who are trained in physical rehabilitation as well. There are not enough people who are dietarily trained as well, because there are a lot of people who are suffering from malnutrition, and it's not always good to give them the same diet as others. And so giving long standing aftermath aid, I think, is the most desirable for this situation.
Host 52:20
And now let's move to the US, obviously, in a somewhat strange and different position than, than, than, than in the past,
Meredith 52:31
I've seen a lot of smaller groups and a lot of individuals from the US who are ready, willing, and who are helping, as it goes for the USAID fund, as far as I heard, it was going to be $2 million which going through the USA team. I think there's five people left in the area. I don't really know how that's going to help the huge amount, unless they're going to go through a different system and give that aid to someone else to facilitate the on ground disaster area. It's likely to go within healthcare. But something that I do want to mention, in regards to the USAID cut we're seeing we've Myanmar is currently suffering from TB crisis, and along the border there are many, many people without their TB medication because of this. And TB, once you stop taking medication, it can mutate and become immune to certain medications.
Host 53:31
I see that that's that's very scary, along with everything else you're saying. I want to take a moment to ask about media as well, because so much of the conflict in the crisis is is, is what people know and how they know it and how it's framed. This also goes into the US cuts, because RFA and VOA and much of independent media suffered under the the cuts we've seen recently from the United States, although there are so many courageous local journalists trying to do their job, and that's where we also appreciate so much you taking the time to talk to us and bring us these, these, these very important on the ground views and perspectives. But how what have you seen of the work of local journalists, and how hard has it been from the US, cuts to the earthquake, to the lack of communications, internet to a a brutal and violent military in terms of just being able to get the word out and understand even what's going on.
Meredith 54:30
Well, I have been a long time avid vocalist, a vocaliator of local media. I think it's so important that local persons on the ground get the word out, but also that the rest of the world take notice of what's happening in Myanmar. And actually, while the world is noticing Myanmar because of this earthquake, I hope that the war crimes and the atrocities do get noticed, but the the journal. Lists on ground are phenomenal. Of course, they're putting themselves in danger every single day, not just by going into conflict zones, not just by going and reporting on it on active scenes, but also just the fact wearing a press badge is going to get them killed. The Junta is purposely silencing media.
Host 55:19
It can't be said any clearer than that, I thank you so much for taking this time, and one can only imagine how much you're doing, how much you're holding and to be able to pause and speak to us, and by virtue of our platform, the 1000s beyond that now have some kind of channel into understanding what's happening, and you also have an amplification here to be able to beyond what we've talked about, in addition to, as we've spoken on this podcast, what else you might like to say? So I'd really like to turn that platform over to you and to deliver the message that you really want in the ears and minds and hearts of those listening now.
Meredith 55:58
Thank you. No, firstly, I just want to say, you know, it's, of course, it's hard to take time to talk, and it's also hard for people like myself, certainly, because I'm not the most eloquent, but to contextualize what's actually happening and to string these thoughts together and give it the the platform or the give it the context that it deserves, because right now, the people in Myanmar need to be to be heard, and the situation needs to be heard, and that's one of the reasons why I'm so grateful for people like yourself, who are who are holding these platforms and actually amplifying what's happening on the ground, and no matter what, even obviously conflict from the coup has been happening for Four years, but there's been conflict for decades in Myanmar. And letting people understand the history, and letting people understand the context of the situation, not just those who are hearing it for the first time because of this earthquake, but also those who who perhaps even lived in Myanmar before, getting them to understand what is still happening in Myanmar is so vital, and that's why I'm always grateful for people who are actually getting the word out. And something that I really want to take a moment to say is, if people want to help organizations on the ground, please go through trusted ones. There are obviously going to be some scams that are going around, unfortunately, but go through trusted organization. If you want to volunteer, if you're already on ground, go with an organization which can offer you some protection and some sort of support, because it's still dangerous. And there are organizations which can help, such as sun International, better skill for humanity. We're all helping in our own ways, and obviously we're partnered organizations. Your support from your listeners has helped 1000s of people already, and I'm very grateful for that. If you are not on the ground and you want to help, I would suggest going through remote means. There are ways to help without being on the ground, fundraising, raising awareness, even creating informational pamphlets that can be handed out to people. A lot of people don't seem to understand that dust inflation on these sites is detrimental to health, safety equipment, pamphlets, simple things like this can be really, really helpful. So you don't need to come into the country illegally, you don't need to travel through junta means and support them. You don't need to put your life at risk. You can help remotely. And I think that's really, really important. And I really hope that this isn't a fleeting moment in the media's eyes. I hope that even though this is a catastrophic and devastating event, I hope that the world takes notice of the unimaginable devastation Myanmar has been facing.
Host 58:58
Thank you for remaining with us until the end of this important episode, as you've just heard, the situation in Myanmar is still urgent and demands attention. The challenges faced by its people are immense, and the need for action has never been greater. Through this platform, we strive to amplify voices that can inform and inspire action, sharing stories that are critical for understanding the realities on the ground. But producing this podcast requires resources, and we can't do it alone. To be honest, it's only your support that makes it possible for us to continue this work at all and continue to shine a light on what's happening in Myanmar. Visit insightmyanmar.org/donation, to contribute your generosity is not just a donation, it's a commitment to standing with the people of Myanmar in their time of need. Thank you for listening and joining us in this effort to keep the focus on Myanmar and its people.