Transcript: Episode #320: Running on Empty
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words
Host 00:13
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01:31
Music.
Don Tajaroensuk 02:03
My name is Dawn Katelyn Sachs. I'm the I know how to define myself but I work on us NGO organizations. Basically, we work on human rights, democracy and peace. Then we focus even before getting Thailand you know, but our network we work on Southeast Asia country so we want to have the network to do with so many organizations that the our goal is like to to promote democracy for all human beings and human rights.
Host 02:32
Thank you. So that's the description of what you're doing now and where you are now you have quite an interesting background that brought you to that place. So let's explore that background because as we were talking before the interview began, you come very much from a human rights and democracy family that was your upbringing. So tell us about your your family history and how you came into these?
Don Tajaroensuk 02:53
Long story in that I try to keep it short as we can basically like what I remember when I was very young, I think less than about five four years old is really young. And that's how I'm led I realized that you know they have so many friends coming to our house staying together. somes come for two weeks, some three months, some six months and like somebody two years at that time I realized that they my my mother friends she used to say that like oh my friend Cummings today for a bit in our health. The problem is after our friend came to our house, my mom left you know she left to work somewhere and then they will stay they will stay together with me and my brothers and my friends I never realized that they are if we cheat on anything that's fine. But what I remember is like every evening they often like came together playing with my friends you know like really young really young students like a football any like high MC any kind of activity if lady joy with me, I see really family with them and then we see really have strong relations. I will remember they helped one one friends on the monastery in his name is man we I was like almost crying, thinking about him, which they two years together. You swing football with me every day, and then he is one teaching me a lot of opprobrium. And then I cannot realize that we have the cross leadership until the day he left. Like what I remember we were at the airport. I was crying when he left. And after that, like we don't have stone like the social network, right? We never contact each other anymore. But anytime when I visit the monastery, I will ask them all the time when we I don't know where he is now.
Host 04:48
But you remember big brother for me and worked so these friends that would come and stay with you, your mother would take in? They were from different countries or from so
Don Tajaroensuk 04:58
many times we manually some tamales stay in a limited time they have levolution period right to finding them to hear but actually they have so many people come came from any country right? Cambodia, Myanmar, Vietnam, Indonesia Philippine I cannot remember but this kind of Southeast Asia country and then I just realized that when when I was like 20 I realized that often my liberties they just stop at our house for waiting for a certain to third country. Yeah, then I started realized that this when they stay in my house during the process, you know, that just keeping waiting to go into a country some way connected with somebody's family shadow or social media, but some cannot.
Host 05:45
Yeah. So you would speak English with them when they were there?
Don Tajaroensuk 05:49
Yeah, exactly. Even in other Likud I remember I have so many Miss crema came articles. Speaking were prepared, you know, but they sometimes they helped me, you shouldn't say that. They just say like this, like, I can remember it. I say, Mother can something we will have dinner. Mother, mother can house you know, if they say no, you have to say that we will have dinner at Grandma's house, something like that. They taught me a lot about English.
Host 06:17
So it's interesting, because you were a child during this time, and your mother was involved in these refugee issues. So she was bringing them in to help care for them as as they were going on their way. But through a child's mentality, you didn't probably understand the concept of what a refugee was what it meant to not have a home. So you remember when that consciousness started to come to you of like, Oh, these people that are my friends that are just staying with me, they're actually their backgrounds are actually very different in the background. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. When did that when did
Don Tajaroensuk 06:47
that I realized that right. I think when I turned to 20 I can say that even since since I was four and five years old, you know, until 20 some liquids is still coming from the same country. And when I grew up, you know, we have more no less of our life, which is our politics. That's what he likes that the new group here, also the Fuji is, and maybe the previous group, they also seem like Fijians. So you see they have the long, long story of them, you know, and 15 years already, but very few T still come to Thailand for many times during the same process, same route still happen. That's why I realized that the old fan, you know, in 15 years is the same refugee group that already happened in 15 years after. Until now. I think you can see that many refugee meanwhile, asylum seeker around the borders. Yeah, right.
Host 07:43
So this, I think this, this brings the discussion into who your mother is, before we get into your story and what you're doing with migration and human rights and democracy, grassroots activism, I think we first need to look at who your mother is, and what she was doing professionally. So that personally, she was bringing all these refugees into your home. She obviously was doing something professionally, above and beyond this. So tell us your mother's story.
Don Tajaroensuk 08:07
Okay. Have you tell you when I was young? What am my perspective?
Host 08:11
Sure, sure. When?
Don Tajaroensuk 08:12
it was yeah, I really didn't know what she doing. What she happens. What I know that my mom we left the house. Sometimes she lived like three months. We just stay together over framing sometimes she lived six months. She come back a few weeks. And then she she went again. Yeah, I really don't know what what she did that time. You know, in the school, the in the school the teachers, right? Are we asking what your mother doing your father? For other students they have the simple answer right nurse for is that I cannot give an answer. Like what is the work of my mother? I nobody likes and feels to me again. Then I realize that she's like work for human rights for a long time since I was really young. The day she did not come home. She's going somewhere in some country, you know, to work for human rights and democracy. And actually, she did not tell me the story because I knew that from her friends when I grew up, I made the friends and then when he found many, many, many friends told me that oh, you know, what your mandate seems like dueling levolution pan in a way she is in tamale staying so many places. I have heard a story from her friends actually. Not from herself. And then what I remember that our friend from Timo was like to me that actually my mom she had she had worked a lot for the liberation time you know for like about human rights issue at that time. She was stay together with with Pete the local people with movement. Yeah, those kinds of thing. So Indonesia the same thing. What I felt that you know, many fame intimo In Indonesia, so many can say to respect her a lot, some are some fame Kaahumanu. Also, some some people say that like she's the mother of independence, and yet she worked for inherent issue in Timo and so Indonesia, even Indonesia, in RJ is not successful for it within them, but they get some like authorities in of the movement.
Host 10:24
That's so interesting. So this is just a mother to you, our parents are always our parents, whether they're a famous athlete or politician or whatever else, they're there, they're always just our parents. So this is just a mother to you. And as you grow, you realize this is actually a mother for many other people, not just in your country, but in the whole region, and how she's supporting democracy and human rights, right? Yes. Right. And so as you when you turn 20, you say, and you had this growing consciousness of who your mother really was, who these people were, that were coming into your house, and us as you started to reconstruct her story and understand what her professional life was, what is that? What can you tell us about what who your mother was professionally?
Don Tajaroensuk 11:05
So she went on humrich annexations what I heard that in when she turned 30, something the cemetery organization, you know, working on human rights, and then I think it's like that time they have so many him lightweight operations a lot. And then she's worked in the Southeast Asia countries to promote human rights protect human rights. And then I realized that it takes a long time for her to talk in this annexation until 2008. So, she decided to extirpate the new organization for for Thailand first because she thinks that 2008 The time to tattoo no show they have some cool you know, and she likes that like she should more focused for Thai issue, because he thinks like dilutions you know, should come from people and she like just work for so many issuer I mentioned like family country where she just may be overlooked. So, it thinks it should come back for a tie issue now, then I just delight around that she used to work on human rights and then she who believed that she still believed that the machines should come from the People's from the ground like the labor policy you know, the good policies should come from right now is mean any politicians the high level with a decent body, they should listen to why a particular post Hoko is like anyway, we have to elaborate the why of the PICO estimated possible tourism policy level in in Thailand but you know, when we work with national level we have involved with the upper frame for many country again Yeah, so democracy is not just the one country perspective is about all people connected all together. So now even we focus on Thailand, but we also work with our friends in Southeast Asia
Host 12:50
and what can you tell us about growing up in the house that you were in and the values that you came to learn from your mother and the culture with which you were brought up in which Wow
Don Tajaroensuk 13:00
think she never passed me exactly, you know what to do, but I think I learned from experience from staying next to her you know, from friends coming health from her friends like telling me story autos thing getting it I have learned from from experience from connecting with the lay people discussion you know, I was I was I remember when I was high school. I think they have some issue about migration migrants you know, come to Thailand something I cannot remember exactly what is that but what I remember my friend have really negative perspective toward the migrants. But I I did not think the same way because I feel that because maybe because of my experience I have I had explained with them before. So I feel that they are friends and they have some issue that they need support from Thai people. They didn't want to disturb the country or make any problem but they just came here because some emergency situation some story that's why it needs support. So that's why I think that during high school and have so many different ideas my majority friend in the class you know, but I think is came from my experience Yeah, those higher thing and then I started thinking like, I know how to say that, but I feel that I think all human beings and same I mean we should expect all human beings like if you if you think the world peace, world peace Yeah, at least people should connect we should not hate each other ality should not accord and that's
Host 14:43
a nice idea. It's a nice idea. It's a nice, it's a nice way to live your life by and so you gave a little bit of background of your mother's profession and the work that she was doing. She then went on to, as I understand it to form people's empowerment. So can you tell us smell disorganization?
Don Tajaroensuk 15:02
Yeah, it's gonna sink started. I mentioned earlier and I started on 2008 After the coup, and then they will refocus, like, yeah, we, we really think that your sense is to confirm people, right from the local peoples. And then we have seen that, you know, actually, the local people like when SPD were generalized they also like off the hook or that political participation in the policy letter. And we really believe that you know, if the voice and the voice should be heard in the policy bodies, and that's why we we try to work with there are groups around the country to foracort up like corporations, namely pan is like, the White should be somewhere in every state body, even political within do not listening the whites right now we keep doing again, because we think like democracy should just come formulae people, it should not conform, they're the only politicians only listening man only, like who can convince the country but it should come from the people that basically this idea will be caught at bottom up approach but mortem of you know, yeah. Like to straightening men?
Host 16:17
And what progress has she been able to make with that organization? And what had been the challenges in Thailand that she's faced in?
Don Tajaroensuk 16:24
Wow. But we have actually, I think, I think, what what I feel that actually, even yesterday, we have some, some, some work together with some my camera guy cook, you know, and when I realized that, now, they also have the previous generation, like the generation, you know, they have the network, they all work together. Until yesterday, we we have seen so many young people involved, you know, what I feel now we are during the transition period, like from the previous generation, until the young people generation, I think what we have actually tapped actually, the idea of human rights, democracy and human being whatever, like, is thankful to the new generation already. And even we have the good like, he says, like peer to peer learning between generations, you know, at least the previous generation, they can say about this story, the exploration, and young people can learn from them, you know, and they can find a way to make it better in the generations. The last meeting is really interesting, but young people have so many ideas, so many thing. Of course, we don't know, what is our what will happen in the futures. But at least I think we can transfer we can make the newest innovation. And I don't know when we can actually be done, but at least they have some improve. When it's transferred to the new generation, I think I have thought a new generation Yeah, we still have hope. And then people more interested on each other more, you know, like, at least the connection really strong for me. And then I think the future they have some progress. That's that's heartening to hear. And, and that's certainly something that we're seeing with Myanmar, when we start to move on to that part of the discussion with what's what we're seeing with Generation Z in Myanmar, getting back to your own story. So we left off you were 20 years old, you that was your kind of dawning consciousness of who your mother was, and what she was actually doing and who all these people were that became your friends that were coming into the home. And as we know, from the way you introduced yourself in this podcast, you would go on to be very much involved in this work of migration, human rights democracy. So tell us your own journey and tell us academically and then professionally why you decided to do what you're doing and what that is. I think my my work carry I started since the migrations became what I remember 2007 Before organization is a win, I just want the first year student diversity. I went with my mom at the core IDC intention, we center something this way like they they have to call them they just like they took the the look India people they DC you know, this first day I realized that they might start a candy and then I have met so many like Rohingya people, they even we cannot talk. But I felt tuna issue is so you know, like, what I have seen, they are crying. And then it seems like it's really difficult to actually to help them you know, at that time. We were inside IBC and they made so many Rohingya and then we met within their group and then even we try a lot to to advocate issue of blogging, there have been Thai society where these very difficult, Thai people don't notice them and they don't want to receive any Rohingya even They have some some money stigmatize what you throw at them, it's like, it's an human where it's like, it seemed like they are not human. I've thought, so difficult for me like to keep that this kind of situation. That's why I think that we have anything to do in the country, at least it's your chance to tie people to understand. They are looking here, you may dislike them, but they are human being, at least they should be listed assuming meaning, you know, and then if you think you cannot do anything to help them, but at least don't say that they are not human, something like that. Yeah. And I think that's why I think we have to do so many things for Thai society, to let them understand about this kind of thing. Even is still hard until now, when I think it's a big, big objective with this a bit code that we have to actually yeah. And then after that, I decided to invoke with this NGO work, from logging, and then ignite me a lot about the work. And then I realized, because I also learned from one friend, he's my big brother, he Slovenia. He told me something story about Rohingya, you know, and what I remember, like, what you really want Thai society to, to understand and to do for you. They say they just want to live like human basic, really basic, like they just want to work to have small house or small room to live, no need to be beat all actually things, you know, they just want to have simple life. You know, there is like one thing really, still stuck in my mind. Now, now this man left to Sweden. We still keep in Pasadena. Yeah, I think one thing that might keep me working move forward about this. Yeah. And you asked me what I can admit. Yeah.
Host 21:53
So you, you have this powerful experience at the detention center seen Rohingya in Thai society and the challenges that they're facing and this this spurs in you this, this feeling of compassion, of injustice of empathy, wanting to do something? So did was that the experience you would say that launched you into the academic? Wow,
Don Tajaroensuk 22:17
it's another story. Actually, I at that time, I didn't have any idea to study master to keep my credit Academy as like I don't know Academy ways that way, you know, but I met one organization's name make Team Foundation. We have some joint project on democracy in Thailand. And that time they have director you know, came to Thailand and a man we met together. His name is the Kenyan way. He was the director of the meeting foundations that are making is from South Korea container is a this this city has the the history co story of democracies. So it's like, we quite call each other and when we made it the first time and then I cannot remember exactly what we discussed. But I remember at the end he asked me to, to go to study in Kung Fu because he had to accept it the new program, you know about human rights in Quantico city. At first, I didn't respond anything to him. But he called me again, like again, like, third time, fourth time, I can't remember exactly, but I feel he happily sincere on and he has passions on on me something. And you can feel that, you know, say directly, but I can feel that you have some passion and something. So I decided to study in Kung Tubi is like actually this program called GIMP global NGO master program. And then it's teaching the NGO worker on democracy, human rights, you know, they plan to make the connection between the students around Asia and South Africa to have the connection and work together on human rights study together in peace, democracy. And I started to join with because of convinced that by Kenya and we've done it so
Host 24:11
you really followed in your mother's footsteps after all, after high school.
Don Tajaroensuk 24:18
Yeah, and then yeah, when they go to study, they can we can we have so many like activities and also Academy, you know, half is we learned from academies have you learned from activists around the world is very good. And then I My thesis is about you know, because we mentioned about the xenophobia, right ethos have this light hits on the migrant worker, you might come to Thailand, but you know, my TCP is also interesting because even tidy proxy nationality themselves, they still have this kind of feeling to where people from same country Because in South Korea, and actually they have so many, I can say highest number of undocumented migrants, you know, and you know what perspective top take society to whatever is really bad. So really negative, they feel that those higher people are really selfish. And they make, how do I say, they make the liquidation of the country really bad because of the migration, always they something that, but actually, when I starting to do my thesis, it's like, they have so many thing behind them. These kinds of people, actually, they are like, the RSA protections from the country, they are really poor. And then they facing so many problems, society problem like that, like properties, this kind of thing. And Thai Government cannot solve this problem cannot help them to, to help the courts leading standard, you know, that's why they have to seeking asylum migrants to work in another country. And my, the most interesting thing is, like you see, even people think they've said country, they still have a really bad mix up with the same country, you know, they don't even have empathy. They don't have even very, any concept to understand why our friend in the same country doing ladies, you know, but anything they do go through social media, they say have the bad word. And then I start and then I still have to do again, you seem to make people understand. And then you know, how to say that again, like, you know, it's made me feel that how we can define the Thainess again, you can see that like, Thai people, when they I don't know, say that, you know, even people from conservative side, when they look at leaders should have some idea to protect people from the same nationality. Right. But you see the conservative in Thailand still have really bad attitude to the people in the poor with the same country. That's why it's right in the question to me like, What is it in in Thai? If you think like, we are all Thai, if you think that is the problem of our country, and wish to solve it together. But for conservative side is like dating, that is not the issue. It is released, like form the date if the issue is not our country issue. To explain, it's really complicated. So
Host 27:39
was that some of the work that you're doing now, as you came back to Korea trying to work on not just we'll get to migration later? Because I know, that's another big issue, but leaving migration aside, just looking at the the income gap in Thailand, the different attitudes of maybe different religious or ethnic backgrounds city or, or rural, and trying to trying to find out where those gaps are? And how to bring people together? Is that some of what you've been doing?
Don Tajaroensuk 28:08
I try. It's why the same thing like I think, if you need the will piece, you know, it's like people have connected, at least the two members, how do you do that?
Host 28:18
How do you help them facilitate understanding?
Don Tajaroensuk 28:20
So if every what I think now it now, I think I should like some articles about this thing, this one I can do. And I realize that I just one person, maybe I cannot, actually, the big problem that is, I can be partially is like, just doing this, to solve this problem. Because I think until the end, you know, to solve the current problem, we need collected actions, not just an income for me, but I try to do what I can do. Yeah, at on my base, what
Host 28:48
kind of collective action actions do you think are necessary to see the kind of change you'd like to see in Thailand and Thai society?
Don Tajaroensuk 28:56
was a tough question. I don't really know actually hitting is, once all people have more understanding. Once you've heard things like that is the issue for for, for anyone, anything, when we can so when we think they should have human being is matter of our human being, I think we can miss a call to actions when you know, the problem is we cannot expect that before we should have the same thought thing what we can do now. Just try to let them understand as much as we can do. I still have COVID Yangon mutations, like I mentioned earlier is I think once they might understand they will help help us to disseminate. Distribute the ideas. Yes, still, again, I don't have I don't know when it's going to be in. That is one thing we can start.
Host 29:49
So let's look now at the issue of migration something that is a very important issue in Thailand and something that also happens to be not just your background, but your your And the home you grew up in and your mother's background and profession as well. So give us an overview first, for listeners that might not be familiar. How would you describe how would you give the context of migration in Thailand and some of the issues? A big question I
Don Tajaroensuk 30:17
might ask. Ask the question by coming out, Willie Trump with like so many kids who come to Thailand, some going out and come back, you know, I think Thailand is one country they have the highest like influx, even migration in and out you know, many foreigners who come to Thailand many people who seeking safe place like us said, I'm seekers liquidity comes Thailand, and even Thai people also going to work outside the country. You I don't know how to defy that actually. But actually, Tallinn is one country, it will be so many good on migration, even academia, refugees, migrant workers, like the how to call that foreigners when come to work, you know, and what I think is like, they have so many things to understand and what I really you know, that they have like, at least the number of the Myanmar the American continent is about, I think, two 3 million and documented with undocumented we don't know the number and it's so funny like type peoples also can't do this type. But they are going to work in South Korea for for these kinds of for this type of same work but different ways. So Thai is like country they have in France and then out of similar you really have some make a decisive thing. What happened in Bangkok, you know, and in Thailand, and then in this morning, I made it out supposed to you know, they also have so many for me, right? Who worked online living in Thailand, we achieve like living wage living living costs, but the game the game the how to call that they can slightly from the Western something that is not their own country, within the country. So it's mean you know, if I say that really fast, it's many people try to take advantage on the capitalism and in financial capitalism. You see my migrant going Thai Maggie Korea, they work for higher wage and then they foreigner come to work here because lower living costs migrant workers from Myanmar came here I came here because of the safety situation in Myanmar . So actually people have tried to seeking better place and then they say safe safe, safe spare plan affordable peace. So this time thailand is like the center of like, so migration growth, you know, and for me, it's like Thai people for me to understand this kind of thing clearly like and should have. First should you understand those kinds of people coming out they have some so many lessons to come. And somebody listens, like, what comments should take concern most thing is a sign of security issue. Because it humanitarians like, we should have some humility, not impose on them, you know, and seeming like Thai, doesn't have clearly understanding about the medieval, you may you may have heard that many people stuck in Thailand after they crossed Thailand like aslyum seekers, they cannot access to the basic rights, because they are undocumented. Actually, many Myanmar who came to Thai they have so many high potential, you know, many things many, many of them get scholarship from the country, so many country but they cannot move they cannot they cannot like leave Thailand because they are undocumented and like government doesn't have clear policy on that and to support them and they still saying that they are undocumented costs of Thailand illegally thing but as it is here, many humanitarian issues, right, humanely in that it doesn't mean that we just only provide the basic living but also dignity also stated is the one thing life can actually fulfill human being that's why thing at least this the story Commons should understand. And once they are in Thailand, you know, they ended a Thai authority right? So that's why they have to rely on Thai Thai government. But it seemed they don't understand like anything we still working on this to determine the stamina for this, like to solve this problem, so many people my age and so many things on medication.
Host 34:57
So let's let's look at that Myanmar issue More specifically since obviously this is insight Myanmar podcast where you have a special interest in seeing where Thai policies and and governance how that relates more specifically to the Myanmar situation and the fallout after the coup and in whatever way that you been involved in observing or supporting Burmese as they have been struggling under the military coup since 2021. resisting it I mean, in
Don Tajaroensuk 35:29
my mom's she's had been working on my issue since 1980. Yes, I still was very young again. And I really didn't know much what she had been doing. But after the coop, you know, like she's came back to it became a member. And then at the first month after the coop, I think like, feel smart after we went around the borders, you know, to say is what me and my friend at the borders how the only thing everything's, we have faced so many friends in the borders. And also you know, interesting that they have so many Myanmar who only left fields from 1980 came back to the borders to instance to come to work helping the country again, now we start help the connections like make the network out about to do whatever you can to do whatever to support me, Matthew post. Actually, they have one first we try to support like the ethnic group around about this like to for help them on political agendas, like if they want to connect with Thai country if they have some policy recommendations, something we tried to connect it with Thailand government, yeah, of course, the body in China, but it's really difficult, but we try not to let the voice the recommendations like have been sent to the to the Thai government. And we also advocate tight government to understand the Myanmar issue, you know, you try to let them understand send them live or let them know what happened in Indian borders, you know, because we get them we want to educate them to have the clear policy on on my issues. Thailand cannot go anywhere, right we have the wrong word is in sleep. At first even they don't You don't know what to do, you should have informations. Because information will can let you understand a situation that easily seen difficult because of political problem in Thailand. So okay, when it seems like it's difficult to like advocate Thai government. So we planning now we plan to make the people connection between civil society, okay, and Thailand. At least once Thai people have more understanding, I think we can push in the government also. This is what we have been working on advocacy, you know. And interestingly, I just came back from South Korea in when they have some civil society in South Korea and also want to support also. So we plan to make the civil society in Myanmar to connect with the rain outside. Yeah, it was very interesting. And then, yeah, it is like if it were to be cold. Yeah.
Host 38:02
So your sounds like you're being a bridge to, to connect in South Korea and beyond to what's happening in Myanmar and the civil society.
Don Tajaroensuk 38:11
Yeah, try applying. Yeah, we just had so many meeting in Thailand, do we have the group already connected? Yeah. And then I think Sunni, we have some so many program project together. But our goal, we want Thai society to understand general Thai people to understand that is our goal is really hard work. And then really long lead is one way one thing advocacy. Another thing we try to support humanitarians like, oh, to so many things happen, like once our fade in ethnic group, like they need some support, like magazines, like buying something, we try to like provide it to them, when they want even some maybe saving, we tried to connect them with the medicine company, you know, buying medicines, with the need some food, it had to connect the food to them something, whatever they want to support humanity and inside the Myanmar, we try to find and provide it to them. Some we can some cannot consider. And even sometimes it's so difficult, you know, they also have international community, right? They want to support me in mind. But as long as I mentioned earliest, like Thailand doesn't have the humanitarian laws. You know, when you export the thing to support Myanmar, from outside the country is really difficult. Like some they want to say in medicine. For him, he proposed insight Myanmar. But Ty doesn't have this kind of law. You know, it's mean, if you want to impose maybe seeing medical stuff, you need some some insertive case, so many, many, many, many things less than when many provisions, many, many things we have to do to import this kind of thing. So I try a lot to convince the service company to help you know, keep it so
Host 39:56
you mentioned that your mother became involved again And in Myanmar after a long time away 1988 Which, of course is a very important year. So I take that to mean that your mother was very active in the democracy movement and tell us Yeah.
Don Tajaroensuk 40:12
Let's keep I don't know much about what happened there. But I remember like, she went inside after 1980 with a group. I must shoot her. She's and her fame with J what not, you know? I'm not sure but it seemed she got back list after that after 1980 She went inside and then like, you know, how to call it like the simulator poster or something inside me. And then she got back with that. I think she went there with some academia's. I don't know what about is adjusted from? I collect the story for many friends. And it's not really clear, like the long journeys of her Yeah, but what I know she's she was there. She was there definitely with some fun, you know, with my friend insight. Do you think?
Host 40:59
So? What was her reaction that you witnessed? 2021? Cool.
Don Tajaroensuk 41:03
Actually, not not very to say that we have to do something immediately into February. And then she's like, asking something from I can remember just so many friends from outside, to go together. And then after one month, I think we call together with medical antibodies. Yeah, I think 4 million shares went from Philippines like came from you've been involved since then. And driver, you know, it was private at time. Yeah, that's why I'd be involved or anything. So
Host 41:33
have you as you've gone into these border areas, and you've spoken to ethnic minorities, as well as perhaps Myanmar, that have been fleeing the cities through these border crossings? I'm sure you've witnessed a lot of really harrowing scenes of people living in difficult situations of people that have faced unbelievable mental trauma of loss and danger Yeah, can you paint a scene for us and tell us but for those many listeners who have not met people coming from this tragedy or in the regions where this is taking place and people are sheltering Can you paint an image to help those listeners understand what it feels like there?
Don Tajaroensuk 42:12
I can I can say that one remote involved is about the route to support humanitarian family people who get wounded from the war from the armed conflict you know, I can say that when people are fighting that they even they are armed group or what on what are even their citizens where they get some effects from the war mostly they get treated in Thai in Thai sides, what I remember at the beginning I cannot mention name organization but they have so many me and my friend come together try to establish the clinic center along the borders you know a lot about so many so many clinic like to deceive the people who get fit on the wall to Thailand. And then we try to do anything to help this capital based on humantiarian needs you know, and then I have seen so many wounded people some they lost the limb . You know, some the I saw one guy, like, get shot from the eye. Yeah, and the creed. When you say clearly, it's not like a negative thing that happened in the town, it's just one building, maybe made by wood, you know, something, really, really when you look alright, and then many people's like, lose the arm also. So many disabled people get effects from the war soon. And this thing cannot be published in the news because it's like, we not allow it shouldn't be safe space. You can't show what happened. They have some these kinds of like, work along the borders. And I have seen this all the time. Like anytime I go to the borders, babysit them and we've met so many people
Host 44:02
does it ever strike you as something strange that you're you're on the Thai side of the border and it's just like life is happening like anywhere else. It's you know, school and business and entertainment and family and friends is just, you know, boring, exciting, whatever, whatever shades life take. It's just it's happening like it happens anywhere. And just a few miles away. You have a three, three year plus active combat zone. And does that ever strike you as odd that people in the Thai side don't so much have an understanding or appreciation which
Don Tajaroensuk 44:35
will close you know, that's why we think tanks should understand more about this thing happened. And I remember one day I was standing with when me and my friend at the borders. We talk the same issue like we have one liberal over there. But the story from two sides, totally different.
Host 44:52
And so close just a couple miles.
Don Tajaroensuk 44:54
They are dying. Good holy like. And we just think about what I think, you know, they will have the strong impact on Thai society is already have. But Thai society does not realize that. But let's think about in the futures like if the the the conflict continue like this you know I have seen one student who doesn't have education for six years and then some is like five years four years they never been in the school and and then they think about it they growing up what is the future could be if the millions of students and have done have the application? You know, I don't know how it will affect Thailand letting about the students in the sun have vaccine? What is good happened with Thailand is can create a big business? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Like, I don't know anything. But
Host 46:02
in the scam centers, yeah,
Don Tajaroensuk 46:04
this gap this thing this thing is like, you know, better principle would like be a students, right, they should they should keep this thing as basic rights. And if they cannot have it, you know, I think is you have strong impact in the futures. Yeah, this is what this can be also one thing, you know, you see when when the state is not properly functioning on democracy, right. Many people can take ministries online and their bodies in traffickers. So many things happen. I think we need things we should.
Host 46:38
So you say that one of the things you're trying to do is to educate Thai society on what's actually happening in Myanmar, and how just simply having knowledge of this thing that's happening, not half a world away, but just a matter of miles in some cases. So how have you proceeded to try to provide this education and what has been the response to that to the shootings, to whatever whatever reality and Myanmar you're trying to make aware just Thai society
Don Tajaroensuk 47:07
actually thinks now me and my group, they try to do documentary alone, you know, what happened in Myanmar, the documentary article, where the same Thai people doesn't, doesn't like react like they don't read it, they don't pay attention. And that, you know, and then, I also think there is a problem also, even Myanmar people want to send a message, but Thai people don't receive it. Only something really small. And what I think, you know, the problem is they don't have they never have like, the connections. Because go back to my story. One understand people is once I have the strong experience. So that's why I just think about to have some program that the people and people have connected, the least have the same experience. some one, I think I want to have like Malacanang like between Thai people and refugee. Altogether at the borders, you know, what the problem is like the last time and didn't you don't recognize refugee as the refugee so we recognize them as illegal migrants something that is based on Thai law. That's why it's really difficult to do this kind of activity. But I think I really want to have some program that the Thai people have the real connection between what they have one experience together, they will have more interested in they will go to documentary article, the story later. Yeah, I think that's, that's what I want to do.
Host 48:34
It's easy to hate a group or to be afraid of a group, but it's much harder to hate or be afraid of a person, an individual when they're sitting there. You
Don Tajaroensuk 48:41
see, you see they hit each other. But they never met each other. Right. But I think once they have met, I think they can think something. They have some activity indicators. They may feel that they have failed. Yeah, that is why I think to do this kind of thing. But it's not an easy, you know, just Yeah, because of the title again, I afraid if you do some activity, some police will come, authority will come and a list of the main things. That's why we stuck is that we tend to do something about this.
Host 49:14
Yeah, that's that's really challenging. That's, I mean, that's a powerful point, you bring up that that because they can't be rescued, yet recognized as refugees that are fleeing a terrible humanitarian crisis. There's these limits put on by Thai law in terms of what you can actually do in trying to support them until their stories because Tyla doesn't recognize them as they are. So that sounds like a very challenging thing to work around. And
Don Tajaroensuk 49:39
then you know, like the male effigies, they have to rely on the system of the migrations workers. They want to see they want to be legal person they want to legalize to be legalized. That's why you normally apply you meander that way they apply for the pin cap, my coworker. You see because they want to disturb Thai country. They want to be the kind of like they want to stay safely that's why they have to rely on the system but you know they have some academia work actually the American worker system in Thailand it like one system is highly corrupt corrupt system because somehow you want to apply for the Green Card The prostate is very difficult for them sometimes you have to pay additionally to get this kind of service and this happened for a long time you know, some academics say that it should be where we have this corrupt system Tober might when workers document is became instance with solid institutionalized already so its name was literally I set up secret came to Thailand with a deadline on the system, you know, they move with a corrupt system and my question is like who's delicate minuted and that what is going to be in and then it's became like it's never been in because maybe some people some alternative they want to keep the system because some group happening face you know we don't really know what who is kept really benefit on that shirt so
Host 51:10
let's talk about Mesa because may side has a very different kind of place in Thailand that that as we know many Burmese flee there and yet those Burmese who might find their way and may start then have trouble leaving may start to the rest of Thailand so legally speaking tell us where May South fits into the overall type policy
Don Tajaroensuk 51:34
they have some of the editing method is one location that people who really really really say Mossad is like the location when people have more problem they will come to my site first you know it's more easy for them to come it's not like shake my shake my mostly people who have like better conditions that come to shake my butt Mossad is like people who in urgent situations they can't
Host 52:01
so does that mean that Thai authorities are somewhat more relaxed or allowing Burmese to come more easily in the Mesa but then a bit more restricted and leaving they sought to get into the rest of Thailand?
Don Tajaroensuk 52:13
They say no basically if you ask them they say no does carry cocaine illegally to Thai you know, but you know they are very happy system that like oh, Myanmar who actually flew TVB they have to have the system like they have to pay to the police like screw the to the light brokers yeah this kind of thing is mean like the authority mess or no everything's know how they come know how deadly thing and they know how to report to them to get this kind of the broker fee something Yeah. And then it really come on even all our lives which is our friend in me or me and my friend invest or at least know that this system so once you are in the in the master you have to invoke with that you know, you can pay so many option sometimes you can pay just for leaping you can pay for like to have like RSA have some specials activity that you can do what based on like how much do you pay even sometimes you can cross to the another province? Yeah, it's based on like how you deal with that officer is not based on the laws based on the principle but based on how you deal with that.
Host 53:29
And now in the border areas you've also I imagined been two to two refugee camps that are in various border areas Can you can you give us a picture of what life is like there?
Don Tajaroensuk 53:42
I can't say once I want inside yeah but I cannot say kill us that for me you know it seems it's already been there like 3040 years right? I think people anything happened that is become socialize become the communities already like people have system they have hast SWAT hospitals school this kind of thing. But for me they solely sad because it put people in the camp you know, they living so long some students like maybe being out, do you think about people stay in the camera like 20 years 15 years, lemon seen the society outside? And this one will create a problem you know, when Ty come in want to solve the problem? How you can solve the problem when children don't know who's like society outside the camp, you know, and again, this will be so many some people take benefit on people in the camp. Like actually they do not allow to come out. But once like some people want them to be labels. They can be out but they have to pay some person take up the waist, you know to the officer again. You see this this thing happened around the Thai country that I can see. We have people who are being materialized by system. But some people like take benefit on them. You see may And the last is so one thing, so are fed up, you know, like these things should be discussed and do something more like this kind of thing planning ladies, you know, it's not really good for, for human rights, right? Yeah human being.
Host 55:15
So one thing I've noticed being in Thailand this time is just how much Burmese I hear spoken on the street everywhere. Whether it's Bangkok or Chiang Mai or, or anywhere throughout the country, I just I hear a lot more Burmese than I remember in the past. And so I imagine this is reflective of the the vast increase in the people in the Burmese that are coming in that are fleeing conflict. And this has to be having some kind of impact on Thai society, as well as on the way that we can say Thai society is viewing these encountering many more Burmese hearing much more Burmese language. I know, this is a very broad question, and you can break it down and get a bit more nitty gritty. But as someone who's been studying this issue, and concerned about migration and refugees for really since since you were since childhood, what are you seeing about just anecdotally about the increase in Burmese, all throughout Thailand, and the way that Thai society is absorbing them or working with them? Or ways that, that there's some tension between the groups?
Don Tajaroensuk 56:19
I can see, I mean, my people already been here for a long time, right? In my views, they're part of our society already. The early part of that, you don't know like, our facility we're using now is come from the they work in Wolcott they they wasted Labor's already but Thai not realize that. And the way it's like Thai people should understand actually. Like, they you know, even the the person who take care of the students, you know, title so high the minute like, those higher water right to have to work in the house, for writing their own students, you see, actually so really close. But we not realize that they are our friend. But what we should understand is like, they have support Thai society a lot. I can say that without Myanmar without Myanmar friend here Thai can really develop lighting panel. Wow, yeah, you are seen our sense, that's quite the same as what we saw Thai society. That's why we just want Thai society to understand just let's take them as human beings, at least, if you cannot help them, fix things like they are our friend. And they have helped us a lot. And you can see they have so many crime, no, no, no, sorry. They have so many low can read from Myanmar people, I think, will be it's really small number, right? If it gets you the new. And when I talk with them, actually, they really want to make any problem to Thailand. In the setup, they will they want to they feel thankful for Thai society that at least keep them live, you know, safely. And then they feel that they don't want to disturb the country, they don't make any problem, they want to be passed up the country and leave with jetlag spec memo. And then, you know, you see many pay pay by believing they want to pay taxations they can be a part of our they are already part of our society, just more listening on them, and then eating our country will be more better.
Host 58:44
First of all, I just want to say that's a really beautiful way to put it, I really want to underscore for listeners just how what a what a nice and truthful way you express that was and to underscore the role of Burmese and Thai society and the way that they've been part of it and they've shaped it into what it's become today. That's that that's a very powerful way to look at it. That being said, I also want to ask, how were you seeing Thai views of this recent influx of so many more Burmese that are fleeing for safety and for a better life? Actually,
Don Tajaroensuk 59:21
I have when I see the news, you know, I try to see the comment. But what I feel that I think Thai people misunderstand on what happened in Myanmar. But they don't know what to do with this situation. But at least you know when they have more empthay on this issue I think it's more it's mean we are approved something improved something you know, in society, it mean we're going better something at least you know, if everything is that for people mind, right? We prefer sending something if when people have more understanding more empathy is I think this This thing will getting better. Yeah. That's all I can say for now, if my type perspective, when they say that they come in, I think I can see the positive comments from the social media. And I've
Host 1:00:13
also heard that there is a difference at the younger levels of both Thai and Burmese societies that some of those old traditional ways that there's been that rivalry going back not just decades, but really centuries in terms of well, you know, this kingdom ransacked. This is how we feel, and some of the younger generations are, are moving past that. I've heard, are you finding that as well? Yes,
Don Tajaroensuk 1:00:36
I think one thing is maybe young people among young people, they maybe have some things, they have some feeling the same feeling like, in Thailand, you see, even you can see the big, like, protests lat last weekend yesterday, they still feel the same way. Maybe like even they have some ideas, they want to participate in the in the developments in the policies, you know, but they could not properly invoke with them. Because they have some restrictions from the, from the, from the way to talk with the policy body, you know, and I feel, maybe they have some same kind of feelings at the same way. In my people, young people spine, they have to futures, they have to hope. And then that's why they are easily connected to each other. And when they talk about this society problem, because they may facing some similarly faced with a situation. Sure, yeah, that's why they are understanding is.
Host 1:01:36
And so if there's some similarity in the two countries in terms of the problems that they're facing, we see now that the momentum is all on the people side, that it that the military is steadily losing if the people are to win. And if they are to establish some kind of a federal democracy, that's a better and fairer system for all peoples. What do you think the effects of that kind of victory would be on Thailand and the young generations,
Don Tajaroensuk 1:02:00
it's not even Thailand is to be the big political momentum in Southeast Asia. Because not even Thai people like off serve about situation in Myanmar. But I can say many friends in many country, you know, Meteor and right, they will mute the aligners they slowly activate. And then once we talk together, I think it means I can achieve that. It will be the peak momentum for Southeast Asia. And surely, if the Myanmar can actually be more cases, firstly, we will support high democracies, at least at least a lot of people's, you know, totally, because they have the same feeling they have the same. Same goes same hospitality. Yeah,
Host 1:02:45
yeah, that's also just kind of this beautiful moment of realizing that your that you and Thai people like you now are coming to Myanmar people in their darkest hour in their their worst nightmare, trying to help them and provide that support. And if the support that you're providing, if that helps them to continue their fight against this tyranny, and to be able to establish a better future for themselves, then that it's going to go the other way. And then everything that you're giving them and you're supporting them, they're going to then build up momentum where they're going to start to be the ones that can guide your movement and your people in
Don Tajaroensuk 1:03:23
what I'm doing, I just think they should deserve it. You know? What I think what I think there is why so I don't know, can I say that? I expect that or not? It's good. It'd have vendor, but for now, I think is like focused on that. Sure to help. As long as we have the human connection, I think sometimes we can, like support each other all the time, and hopefully in the future is like, yes, somehow is to support our country, our family and our country. And for our people, I think it's very important.
Host 1:03:59
So you mentioned multi alliances. Are you involved in affiliates? Not
Don Tajaroensuk 1:04:03
exactly in what, like, at some time we work together and yet yes, just support them because they're young peoples and then really active. Great. Wow, I think they will be active and very have high hopes. He says that high passions to do connections between youth group, but even in Southeast Asia, but along the issues. And they really, really sharp, you know, when I talk with them, they have good strategies. And then yeah, that's why I think we have to support them. Yeah.
Host 1:04:35
So some of the activities that you've been doing the people to people especially when you when you share just recently the People to People connection in South Korea through in South Korea and beyond coming to the border, the Thai Burmese connections, I couldn't help but think of milk tea Alliance and that instance that seems very milk tea, that kind of kind of practice. Yeah.
Don Tajaroensuk 1:04:56
Yeah. Yeah, keep going. But I just want Thai society to understand you know, our friend, when they come to Thailand, that is the choice that they can. That is the last choice for them to for leaping for the life for the family actually didn't want to make anything bad for our country, they just come for emergency situations, they really need support, you know, at least I want us to understand like this kind of story, if you cannot help them, that's why but to understand the situation. And the tie community is really matter for the life they live in. Yeah, please, at least don't hit them. Don't have any bad, bad attitude towards them, you know, at least just think they are friends, neighboring. And I want them to after that today, you know, when they heard this story, when you walk around when you see our main man fan, he's like, you can go to talk with them. They are very nice. I can promise you they're going to just go try to understand more time to talk and try to understand from the live people they have so many study to talk to you to let you understand. Yeah. It is the way that for me it is the first step to actually the world peace in wanting to understand people connection being there. Thank you
Host 1:06:47
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