Transcript: Episode #321: Love in the Time of Rebellion
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 00:18
If this is your first time listening to our podcast, welcome our programming brings a diversity of voices connected to Myanmar to share their perspectives, thoughts and reflections about what has been happening there since the military coup in 2021 all of our guests share one thing in common, a deep personal stake in the ongoing crisis, and it is an honor for us to be able to bring their voices into your earbuds, but however difficult it may be to hear some of their stories, we hope that you will come away with a deeper and more nuanced understanding of What is happening there. You I for this episode of insight Myanmar podcast. We're pleased to be joined by Evie, who is from Indonesia, and we're going to be going into her activism in Indonesia, which has then tapped into the wider milk tea Alliance, of which is very much impacting Myanmar now looking at how local concerns in different Asian countries are actually regional and transnational concerns. So what Evie is doing in Indonesia is affecting the regional and nearby Southeast Asian countries as well, which is affecting Myanmar on insight Myanmar podcast. So Evie, thanks for coming to discuss your background and work in Indonesia.
Evy 02:37
Yes, thank you. I'm glad to be here, yeah, okay, I actually want to start my activism background from early in my school days. I really like to write, and I think writing can, like, transform the social change, you know, but pushing change in our society. So I been a student journalist since I was in high school, and I write a piece for a local newspaper like schools corruption and like violence against the students. And I think it's my writing it can really changing the the way society works. I mean, there's after, after I write about it, class of school corruption, and then it's actually my school. But yeah, back then I investigated with Anonymous, with so my my office is like, protect me, so I can do the investigation. And after the news release, yeah, the school is really like, doing the works. You know, the indication of corruption is they, they clarified it and, and, yeah, because it's, it's about the the building, the they like taking hacking, money for for the building, but, and then after the news come on, the building is done, and there's accountability from them like that. So I really believe that that writing can can be so powerful. And I think that's that's where the seed of my activism go. And I I do social projects. And I teach. I teach a child when I'm in college, I'm joined the social community, community, and I teach, we making like the non formal education for for our children that living in the river bank. Um, so, yeah, we, we have fun with the children we study and trying to make the alternative education. And that's also like reshaping my my activism. And I think another milestone is when I, I get graduate, when I get graduate from college, I joined this NGO that working on migrant workers, and that experience I work for, for that institution is like for five years, and the experience working with migrant workers, women, migrant workers and their family in the village is really changed my perspective. It's like also changing my life, because I'm not learning about gender or feminism from many books or theories I learned first from them their stories. So I have this like, writing assistant with EX woman migrant workers, Indonesian women's migrant workers that go back to the village and build their community. I, I write their story and their story really like really, like a milestone also in my i i unlearn, managing, I relearn anything, and I'm really grateful of that meeting the community, and also it's actually the seed for me to like having the consciousness of transnational or trans local solidarity. Because, you know, migrant worker issue is like we're talking about borders. We're talking about, yeah, not only human rights. There's very multi dimension, and it's very complex, actually, because the history of when Indonesia starts sending a migrant workers. They the government is in the new order, New Order regime, and the ministry at that time called called them like the hero, the hero for money to Indonesia, because at that times, Indonesia is cannot rely more on the oil, so they send the migrant workers. So they calling them a hero, but actually they're really vulnerable, because the yeah, there's a mafia of trafficking. There's a forced migration, there's a marginalization, and so many things. And my organization back then is the office is actually a seller. So we do, like almost everything we do, the we give in consultation, we do research, we do advocacy, policy, advocacy, also, like, also legal aid and the office is a seller. So I, I often like, like talking with with the victim, having, having connection with them, and, yeah, it's actually, like, it's very hard. It's very hard. I my office is like, not really big. It just like national NGOs, but in a year we can, like having 2200 200 case they've been handling with our organization itself. So I think it's so many, and when the covid happening, there is so much work to do. I'm I'm working in the data and publication division, and I like making a database of Indonesian migrant worker to and send them to the government so the government can, like, send the A to them that been in other countries or in their village, or their family in the village. It's, it's quiet like a heart. And you know, covid 19 is actually changing anything for me personally, I really, I really like to meet people. I mean, go to the field, organize the community, like by meeting. Them. But when covid happened, I'm stuck with this, with this data and this, this digital advocacy, or remote advocacy, etc. I'm getting so burned out at the times. But when milk tea alliance is um is coming to my life when some of our friend um, at first, it's not melty alien, so at first, it's like some, uh, several NGOs in Indonesia, several pro Democrat, pro democracy activist is like gather to having, having an advocacy for Myanmar, having a solidarity from Indonesia for Myanmar, and then we, We began our multi audience journey when I did digital activism with multi alien I start to believe with digital activism. I really start to believe with I with digital activism because, because I feel genuine connection with all mercy alien friends. I mean, I'm working on the I'm being an admin for the Twitter and another platform of social media. And every time, every day, we like tweeting about what's happening in Myanmar and other multi alien friends, Twitter Accu like giving, giving the retweet comments and etcetera. And I don't think it's performative, because it was so massive. Even in Indonesia itself, we growing like the discourse is growing so fast, and a very intersectional because we grow. We growing like not only the pro democracy activists, but we invited artists, we invited even a cyclist or any other community to to having a solidarity tool for our friends in Myanmar. So the first protest that we organize is a solidarity night in front of ASEAN Secretariat. And it was really powerful, because at the times in Indonesia direct the restriction of covid, it's really like hard, no one can get into this trade. In Jakarta, there's like cities, la Asian like that. But we, we are gonna, actually, there's just some of the the maybe 10 or 20 of us going to have a protest in front of ASEAN Secretariat. But there is, like maybe multiple of our like, 20 more journalists come there to like, to like, see what we we, what we did, to to see what our statement and others and others, what touching me is also, there's our Papua friends that come to to give their solidarity to our friends in Myanmar, because they have a similarity. They have, they they have the relevant fancy about what's happening in Papua. Also, there's also genocide, police brutality and anything happen also in in Papua. So our poor friends is is standing with us in front of ASEAN Secretariat to have a solidarity Night, night for our friends in Myanmar, I print like a poster of every activist had been die at first. The cop is of February 2021, I print all of the picture, and we like having a cry for them and every activist giving their speech, and I think it's really genuine. It's really like helpful to me. I believe there will be a spring revolution in ASEAN, and I believe that people will win. And, uh, yeah, that's, that's the first time we we start the solidarity action for Myanmar. And after that, when the, when the the dictators come to Indonesia for ASEAN meeting. Before, I think before ASEAN Summit, there's some general meeting with within the ASEAN leaders, we organized also a protest. But this is because, because we get so many terror from the police, because of the floors the first protest, because it's restricted and etc, etc. So the second protest, we organize it with bike. So by cycle, we make hashtag, bike for Myanmar, bike for revolution and all the activist is, is bring their bike, and we're like, bike around the city. And it's not only activist, it's also bicycle communities by communities that they're joining us, students and I just rather so many bike and we're riding around the city to show our solidarity to Myanmar and protest the deductors come to our country and we and others. Milcia Alliance is saying that, well, Indonesia, Israel is 40 either way for protests, but actually, we're biking because it's more like mobile. Mobilize mobility. Yeah, it's more flexible, because when, when the police, like, want to stop us, we can, like, just cycling around and split. It's, it's very easy to split. And, yeah, it it very, it very fun, but it's very meaningful for me and for Milk Sea Islands, Indonesia, and also, and also, it's, it's means for a transnational solidarity So, and other than that, we first protest, and the second protest was biking. And then we also do, like raising awareness with the with the zines and our kids merchandise, having wider collaboration with artists, Illustrator and also, like a rapper, musicians, musician, we do, we do some, we produce so many artwork and art piece to to raising The awareness in Indonesia and to express our solidarity for what's happening in in Myanmar, and then also, not only Myanmar, but also what's happening in Thailand, what's happening in Hong Kong, what's happening in Thailand. So, yeah, that's how milky aliens Indonesia is is growing.
Host 18:03
That's beautiful. Thank you. It's, it's, uh, it's really incredible to hear about the response and the activism that you've had in all throughout Indonesia to ASEAN, even it sounds like putting yourself at risk in terms of having to be mobile to escape Indonesian police, as you're protesting ASEAN policies and making clear that your that that you and your friends and comrades in Indonesia are not standing for what your brothers and sisters in Myanmar are suffering through, and going and making your voices known. And I think what this also points to, and what's so fascinating about milk tea alliance is that you're making these transnational connections. And even though the situation in each country is slightly different in terms of the politics and society and history and everything else there is, I want to quote from something that I think it might have been you that said a few days ago, when we were together with other milk tea, Alliance, friends, you said something like the thing that connects us all as we all hate our governments and and that was, and as as humorous that is, that is, in one degree, it also points to this, I'm sure, this, this abiding frustration of authoritarianism, whether it's the monarchy or the military dictatorship or some other form of non democratic rule that is also infringing on human rights and having different particular issues in the respective countries based on the context of what's happening there. But you do have this kind of cat and mouse game of the authoritarian dictatorial regimes sharing secrets with each other of how to better oppress their people, and then the grassroots from each of these countries as well, aligning in solidarity, not in any kind of nationalist bent against their own. You know, waging their own. Histories against each other, as the dictators might like them to do, but in being able to share strategies and motivation and morale and solidarity and have campaigns and events that share across those borders.
Evy 20:13
I think that's why we make the dictators playbook me and other Mitzi Alliance friends from Taiwan, dw and Brian, having this, this last, this last past year, we've been like discuss, discussing about how to build A Knowledge Hub to our assistant and movement. So Ryan, making a website. W making a multi Podcast. I'm and I magazine, a zine club in Indonesia. I think one of interesting, and also answering your question, is the first zine club then that I met with my friends in Indonesia is just after the the election. And you know who's the winner of Indonesian election? It's Prabhu. Prabowo is the man that killed activists in 98 and, yeah, he's really connected to the previous dictator. 32 years Indonesia in the new order regime suffering, no democracy, no freedom of expression at all, no politics at all. And this guy is winning the election with his cute campaigns. And I don't know that cute campaigns can, like a brainwash all the people to see him, not as a killer, but as a cute uncle. That's crazy, that that's what Tiktok does to our like our perception. And I met the zine club just after the election with with some of the activists that working in various sectors, like women activists, activists that working on education and youth led organization, etc, so many of them working on felt we gather together, and we have This term collective Grif. And when we say collective grief, all of us is agree that our collective grief is probable, is being elected. So there, there's, there's when we imagine, like, the future of our country. I don't think we can imagine something like utopia. It's almost this topic to imagine the future, because even he's not being like obviously the President, there's so many law that been revised, and it's really like threatening our civil society, because like govern, like the revision of police law they they make the police can shutting down Our internet, and also the revision of broadcasting law. They not allowing the investigation, your your investigate, investigative journalism. They not, they not allowing it to do, to do independently. So they they must be approved by the government. How can we it be approved? I mean, like only investigative journalism can do, like showing us the corruption that been done by the government, only investigative journal, even journalism, can do, showing us what's happening in the grassroot. When, where? There they, they are many activists in the grassroot that they've been harassed killing and because there are not really high profile, they, they fought. They voice, um, oftenly not heard. We, we haven't, um, not hear like the news or anything, but only investing, get the journalism can do that. But there are vision of the broadcasting law make government can, like, disapprove it or or censor it. It's really crazy. It's really crazy when. Journalist when the journalistic itself like thriving because of the capitalism and etcetera and government is one to make this watchdog. Watchdogs system, our our our peer, our journalist, in the people's side, is they, they just want the shedding, shedding all so it's, it's kind it's kind of crazy, um, for what's happening from what's happening in Indonesia. And, yeah, that's the collective group from Indonesia and the dictator playbook is actually like exactly what you say it about. Because we have this we have this concern about how our the dictators in every country in ASEAN, is like having, having, having a collaboration. I mean that's really we always we always we, always saying and focusing on how we, how we help each other in people to people in the grassroot, but how they the dick sector, like, support, supporting each other to like, crushing the democracy in Asia is, Is, is really crazy, like what's happening in Myanmar before Prabowo elected to be the president. He's actually a ministry of defense in Indonesia. And there's, there's, there's a report that saying the the, what is it? Alosista, the gun and weapon is, is, is can be from, from Indonesia, from there's, there's a, there's, like, the indication of, yeah, maybe Ministry of of defense is like having a role to support the gang circle I told in Myanmar like that.
Host 27:32
Uh huh. So you're saying that there's a report that small arms are coming from Indonesia to the Myanmar regime, military regime,.
Evy 27:39
Yeah. And we did actually multi alliance with contrast and others. Civil society organization is, is actually released a statement about that dislike I forget, is when it is exactly what I think earlier this year. So the dictator playbook is just like that. We make, we make that into our website and our and zines too. So we can say that make, make, make, the make, the Imagination is more clear because it's really happening. It's really happening one by one countries in s in Asia, is like having these dictators rising again.
Host 28:40
That's really scary. Yeah, yeah. Do you sometimes feel like you're on the front line trying to dispel this darkness that is risking coming to take over the region, and you're trying to, I mean, this, this is, this is a real thing. This is not human. History has shown us that the whatever freedoms and human rights that we have in whatever form, that these can be swept away by real, brutal and evil regimes that can and do come along, and that we are seeing across Southeast Asia, and we can mention the wider world as well, even the Western world, even in my country, we're seeing signs of this. But to stay in the Southeast Asian region, we are seeing this, this fight right now for freedoms, against dictatorial authoritarianism, and it seems to me like you guys are on the front lines of that battle.
Evy 29:40
Yeah, the front lines. I want to add something about what linking us to this movement and resistance. It's also in history. So one time I made this campaign with Monsieur Indonesia, the hashtag is kita pernah Kaya Guinea or in English. Is like we've been there before to rising awareness about what's happening in Asia, especially in Myanmar, is actually happening also in Indonesia right now, in Papua, but in our history, in new new audio regime, the Reformation 1919 Act, or the yeah before 1998 the Gan Gano site to Communist Party in 1965 if is is actually been talking about so much right now by the youth in Indonesia. So I think there's, I just want to spark some hop beside the darkness that happening in the detector, Facebook, Bible, they that I think the the youth is is now like becoming. They want to writing, write their own history. I mean that we we want to interpret our history like, even when I'm in school, when I'm in school, there's still a propaganda that been into the education, but the history so like for, for example, the genocide in 1965 is being like, like, not the government, not the government fault. I mean, it's, it's all Communist Party fault, like that, but they're still writing like that in the in the history book that obviously realized by the government. But I think the interpretation, the meaning, the imagination from our youth is changing so much, and it's also working for for the Asia, Asia Asia scoops, and I think everyone now want to reinterpret our story, like, Yeah, like that. About being a frontline of this fighting or this movement. I think it's really important because we've now like centering the collective care. I think we've now centering the collective care in our movement to make like. This is not individual fighting. This is not this is not like only this is not like the the countries in Asia is like separated from each other. It's not like that. This is like humanity without burgers. This is a solidarity without burgers like that. So centering the collective care is, I think, also like protect the movement, protect the youth and keep the keep the solidarity alive, keep the hub alive, and also the way we imaginate our tactics is important as as the of the frontline of this fighting our movement, because with more creative tactics, The government will be like confused. What is that mean? Like we, yeah, we also write that on mercy aliens playbook. So dictators playbook is like how the dictator minds playing and coordinating with anything that we write about, or what is, what is the what is happening in the sector mind and in each country like that. But mercy Allen's playbook is, what is our resistance, what is our tactics to against, against that? So it's very creative. It's very imaginative. It's really, is really fun. I think fun we should like putting fun too in the center of activism, because with that fun, there will be, like, very passive means very negative and it not. It cannot be our full to to like running this movement, right? So what's what's in a Milk Sea aliens playbook is, like we documented this, the creative tactics from Taiwan, from Hong Kong, like we. Um, like skit protests. Um skit protest that there's the protest that you just like running like a hunter, running like, run, run, run. So the police is like Confucius. What is happening here? Or when the protestor using a dark balloon that we usually use in the pool to like, keeping themself from the tear gas like that. So, yeah, there's also important to centering the collective care and centering the fund, the creativity and also we see internet as a alternative, alternative future. But internet is very vulnerable right now because, because the the, the, yeah, some government roles, roles the internet right now, like limiting them or etcetera, etcetera. And also, there's a possibility in Indonesia that the government will really like taking more Laos to the internet too, but, but I think there's still space for our resistance and movement that can be like growing in in the internet. So internet is the alternative future.
Host 36:36
I want to hit on this theme that you mentioned of fun and creativity, because I think that it's very easy to get lost in the darkness, the fear, the danger, and that the stakes, the high stakes of what you're doing on these front lines, and to to bypass this fun part of it that I think you can hear, you can imagine a voice saying, what's so fun about this? This is history on the line. This is, this is extremely serious and heavy, and should be treated as such. And yet, milk tea Alliance does the creative forms of expression, the innovation, the the pure fun and joy of some of the ways that is expressed, in some ways, are going against this expectation that, no this is serious business. We need to, we need to figure out how to resist these, this dark pool of these dictators. There's there's nothing fun about it. Our lives are on the our lives and the lives of our community are on the line for possibly this generation and upcoming generations. We need to focus and where is fun in that. And yet the fun and the creativity they explode with what milk tea does, the campaigns, the music, the dance, the the videos, multimedia, the memes, you know, etc, that there, and to say nothing of the live protests or performance art or other things. And so how did this sense of the importance of fun come to be a central part in terms of driving the campaigns that you're doing and the work that you're taking part of.
Evy 38:13
Actually, we put that fun, creativity and imagination in center of our movement, because to transform, transform that darkness, to transform the grief that we already have because of the or the what's happening in Asia right now. We transfer with, with the creativity, with the fun, with the imagination. Imagination. We want to transform it into our power, people power, Youth Power, like that. So we have this term, and Mitzi Alliance, like Mixi alien is cooking something the way we choose, yeah, actually the way we choose work, the way we just, you know, statement is not like the way we choose to making a statement. Statement is it's not like, what's NGOs work like, like you, you writing a statement that very stuck structure and systemized, and there's a demand of the statement, yeah, the statement. But I think in in this the usual business is usual, but mercy a statement, it can be like various very like I can we can make me, we can make comic to it. We can make a song. There's a collaboration, there's there's collective called rap against junta that that been their will, is their albums for the Myanmar and one of. The song from this, from the first album, is dictator must die. And the artist is from Indonesia, from Thailand, from Myanmar is rapping, rapping and saying, dictator must die. And one of the artists from Indonesia, the name is 20 goblets. And grandson is putting the lyrics saying, also about Papua. So we can, we can have this transnational solidarity, even with the with the music. The music is a universal language, right? And that's just one, one, collective, one album that I say, but there's so many, so many like in here in Thailand, there's, there's, I think, a concert that been dedicated to Myanmar, a solidarity concert of we are friends. There's a song name we are friends that dedicated like it's like an anthem, a solidarity for Myanmar, and it's very beautiful. And yes, something like that, to combine the art with the message, I think can also be powerful and massive. And because sometimes when, when we want to gaining like people's powers, we cannot gaining it with with like with with a very hard language like diplomacy or anything we should, like, reach people heart with something more, something genuine and easy and soft like that. So I think that's that's how the art and the creativity, imagination and fun working in our movement to like articulating what is our voice, and to reach others people's heart and willingness to join this movement too.
Host 42:17
I think, I think that's another thing that strikes me about milk tea Alliance, and also just the dictator's playbook, as you mentioned in the contemporary times that we're living in, is the lines that are forming and separating. They seem very non conventional to what we've seen historically. So for example, you in historically, you would see these lines built on nationalism, on ethnic or community or religious, some kind of identity that were really top down, were really being harnessed. Of us against them, them against us in terms of how we have to engage. But what we see with the dictator's playbook on one hand is that whether whatever form of authoritarian regime is happening in the respective Southeast Asian countries. Whatever resistance to democracy is taking place, they are not really harnessing to sometimes rifts do happen, of course, different different tensions that will develop between Southeast Asian neighbors. But largely they're sharing. They're helping each other stay in power and helping each other learn how to better oppress their people and exploit them. And then on the side of milk tea, you have this generation of activists that are coming from different obviously different countries, but different religions, different ethnic groups, different languages, completely different backgrounds. And there's there. They're not. There's no sense of being organized, of my label against your label, which is traditionally, historically, what how dictators often stay in power, is saying these people, whether they're minorities in our country or these people over the next border, they are threatening our way of life. They are a danger and a risk, and our violence is justified, our oppression is justified in order to be able to protect you. This is the message that's happening, but what you're describing seems to be going against this very much, both at the top level and at the grassroots level, that there's there's, there's no sense of when a problem or a struggle is happening in neighboring country, let's say Myanmar, because it's the perfect example, and migrants start flowing into especially Thailand and India and other countries as well. There's no sense among those young people that, oh, we have to discriminate against these Burmese and find ways to protect ourselves. Certainly, those nationalist sentiments are happening in neighboring countries. Not to say they're they're not happening, but there's a there's also a tremendous voice and support saying that they are like us, and we could find ourselves in that situation here. We need to welcome them. We need to protect them. We need to rise against what they're trying to fight for. And to fight against and to establish, and these are not being drawn among the lines that we often see of of nation, religion, ethnicity, language, etc. So this also stands out as something remarkable to this moment.
Evy 45:14
Yeah, I think to edit, but that we can see the letters, yeah, it's, it's also early this year it's happened, happening a discrimination, discrimination and a protest towards Rohingya refugees in Indonesia, in ichaya regions. It's very bad, and we're running this campaign. Refugees. Welcome to like, raising the awareness because, because it doesn't make sense, they like, even like, yeah, Icha is, you know, we, if we talk about Indonesia, we, we should not, like, forget it. Indonesia is like, one of the largest Muslim countries, and Muslim is been politic identity that been like playing around this past few years, so massive even it's really like taking part in our president election and others things happening Indonesia, soya, Rohingya conflict in Myanmar is about the Religion and etc. But when the refugees come to to a chair. There's also gaining this, this discrimination from local peoples. It's really crazy, and we really not. It's really bad, and we like gathering all the people to to having this, this counter narrative into that, into that discrimination, because the discrimination is also like happening in the internet. So there are some groups that that the end there, there is some hashtag like, like, anti Rohingya and etc, that's happening Indonesia. So we make, we're trying to make this counter narrative to that discrimination agenda to welcome the refugees. Because, yeah, I say about humanity without border, humanity celebrity without border, because we should really thinking about rethinking about nationalism. And I think Indonesia is really, is really like having a problematic nationalism. You know, even in our history, like the geopolitics of Indonesia, Indonesia is like always having this, like opportun always like the opportunities countries, also in the Milk Sea island groups, when we have this, like weekly check in, and we update about what's happening in Indonesia. It's, looks like Indonesia is alright in rather than any other country, but actually it's, it's not, it's really, it's really not alright. And I really scared that our that's most people in Indonesia, have this kind of toxic nationalism that may be closer to fascism. I see, yeah, that we, we, there's a war. We, what? What are we fighting? Is also like we fighting against the fascism, you know, and that toxic nationality, I think, something that we concern to and we want to decolonize, that we want to like, yeah, back to my last statement, but there's no border, and there is also we should be like, I think I'm learning so many things about our history and our resistance.
Host 49:29
I think one thing I'm wondering too, is that, and this kind of goes back into the idea of fun I'm linking it to, is that there, there's not one country that really represents a kind of beacon of hope that you can that I think the movement can build upon. I think there are many slivers of hopes in all countries, even Myanmar, maybe even especially Myanmar, but there's not one country that's like, well, well, they're getting it right. They're on the right track. Indonesia, Philippines and Thailand are probably held. As countries that one would like to hope they could find a way to put it together. But there is certainly no you would be foolish to hold up those countries as paradigms of real democracy in the region. And so I wonder, with the work that you're doing and the investment that you have the campaigns that you're running, and this is also where this sense of fun plays into it, because that's it's keeping your spirits alive. It's keeping your morale up. But are you optimistic? Are you? Do you? Do you feel that you're making momentum, even in some small way, in some in some region, some place in Southeast Asia, that is, is showing some possibility of positive change or transformation, which could be built upon. Or do you sometimes feel like there's a rising tide and you're in a little raft?
Evy 51:00
Yeah, there always be a time that I've been a about everything. It's really hard because, beside my activism, I should have, like, survived myself too, and survive from this. I'm not coming from a privileged family or anything i i growing up with my mom, living like we should be survived day today, and has like a family and I'll just woman, just Two of us against the world is, is also really hard to like, because there's, there's so many stereotypes there. There's so many like terror of violence and etc. I remember one time I got an interview about what is the greatest authoritarianism that happening in your life. I think born as a woman and I see my my mom is struggling so so hard to raise me as a single parents and living in terror of like marginalization and also like the violence and etc, I think that's that will be my first experience of authoritarianism, because I always scare and also that's, that's one point that can, like, make me go to this hall and chain of of hopefulness and pessimists and darkness and etc. And that's, that's one side of my life, and there's either side of activism, yeah, there's a time that I think I really already pushing myself. I already, like, like, okay, no sleep, no life, no, no. Like enjoying life at all. I just, there's a lot thing to do, like pushing myself to the to the like, to the to the limit, yeah. But that's that's that just make a make it, make it worsen. And I think it's it's more easier to become like that, to become burnout, to become exploited, to become scary fear and etc. It's more easier than to becoming helpful, to becoming optimist, to becoming fearless and etc, etc. So right now, I don't, because I passed that, that, that period, period in, in my experience, I don't want to focus on on the dark side. I want to focus to to either side that that's why, I think, how we, we create, why, why it's also important to the to document that thing, to like, showcasing to like, write a story, tell a story about how our movement and resistance survive. Is also important to create that hope to create, to create that, yeah, the government is sucks. Um. There's very dark future maybe ahead us. But in other sites, like there's a small community in in very remote area that working towards democracy, for their for their village, for or there's, there's a little community that making, yeah, making, the making a system that they can like, thriving from the capitalism and living independently, peacefully like that. So I really want to, like, make it like, just balance. Like, sometimes, yeah, you can collect the grief, you can collect the pain, the darkness, but it's also you should be like, process it. Sometimes we not. Sometimes we cannot, like process it, to make it, to transform it, to to the more meaningful activism, to give us hope the way we process it. Need a community in the collective it can it cannot be done by yourself, your individual self, yeah, maybe, maybe some, someone can. But for my experience, I cannot do that without my community. That's why. That's why. And it actually, not only on Milk Sea aliens activism, but also outside, outside the Milk Sea Alliance, I also like joining the workers union called the name is syndicasy. Syndicasy is like media and creative industry workers union for democracy. Most of us is a freelancers. So I, because I am a freelancer zoo, with with this community, with this unions, I feel I always said that it's like collective, collective healing, collective, yeah, collective cares because, because We, if we fight a lot, it will becoming more harder and more easier to become both pessimists, but if we're working it together, I think what proud it is like democracy, fight survival, fight for your daily life. If you're working it together, it can be hopeful and you can survive it and make it so, yeah, I still believe about people will win in our democracy fight, of course. And I still believe that, yeah, also workers will win in our daily life, fighting the needs of many agents are like that.
Host 58:30
Great. I want to bring in me and Lauren of this discussion and the role, the outsized role I should say that I believe Myanmar is playing, not just in the potential destabilization of the entire region, but also the center of gravity that Myanmar represents to the entire milk tea alliance structure. Because I think the extremes of both the light and the dark are existing right now in Myanmar, I think the extremity of absolute depravity and violence and brutality and real evil, if we could use that word on full display in broad daylight and exploitation is on display in terms of what the military is doing and trying to do to cement their hold. Has is the idealism and and collaboration, sacrifice, solidarity, resilience, innovation of the Burmese activist protesters, resistance. And so I think that the battlegrounds of Myanmar are like this highest stake possible version of the entire region, and perhaps reflecting a mirror to the potentialities of how things could develop in in neighboring countries, to some extent, a possible, one would hope not, preview of various iterations, as well as the fact that we have to say it's not like the other these other Southeast Asian nations are these. Paradigms of great democracies and human rights, and Myanmar is the country disintegrating they. You know, one of it's been commented on by many observers that one of the reasons that ASEAN might not be so involved in trying to help Myanmar is that they don't really have their side of the street all too clean either. And it's kind of hard to Myanmar is the extreme version of that, but it's kind of hard to insist on some kind of of getting back to some kind of line when they all enjoy privileges that they would rather not shine that light onto. And so, can you describe your feeling of just the position that Myanmar, that the situation in Myanmar is is having on the region, and particularly on milk tea Alliance as well.
Evy 1:00:46
Okay, so I think I see Myanmar, like just last February, we do this movie screening Myanmar, from Myanmar filmmaker, it's the it's like the omnibus movie. So there's so many short movie that come together. The title is broken dreams. And from that movie screenings. There's our collect, our collective friends Indonesia, called Project colonial, or decolonial project, is writing a review after the movie screening. They say Myanmar is is close from, from Indonesia, geographically, but it seems so far because, because what's happening in in Myanmar is not like, actually, massive. Talking in in Indonesia, maybe it's, it's, it's not like, like, what, what's happening here in Thailand, it's because it's border. It's really close, like a border with Myanmar, but, but, but they, they, they express from that with movie screening, they express that and and I think from from what i i From what I did with Mel C is Indonesia, and With with my activism, I see Myanmar is like, is like a hope for us. I mean, the resistance of the people in Myanmar, the diaspora, is really like, I I cannot say it's their experience. I cannot experience experiencing it, but just like, join in this movement is actually Give me. Give me like, connect, connection to them, and even I'm, I'm never like Milk Sea aliens. I never been meet all of the Milky alien friends at all offline. We just like meeting online discussion and etc, etc. But I think what what made me like belief in this resistance and this movement is, is because, because of, I don't know it's, it's very abstract. It's very abstract. But it, it stay, it stay in my in my heart, in my gut, so that I will, I will keep fighting. I will not stop until our friends in Myanmar is is free, like that. I think, I think that's that. What is solidarity mean? The solidarity mean, it's not like if I, if I did this to you, you, you need to did that too. To me, it's not transactional like that. Solidarity is, is, is a very beautiful process. I think that contains our experience, our feeling, our knowledge and everything. And we express it with, with, with with action, with do something organizing, doing it like with your community. So I want to add it to like Since 2021 because it become a more cross cutting issue. Two like when the workers is going to district for to district for May Day, they also bringing the poster of solidarity with with Myanmar there, so there's not so what's happening in in Myanmar, the solid, the solidity that weaving that when this what's happening is not only on like democracy issue or democracy bubble or cycle, but also In like the solidarity between the workers, solidarity, between the movement, a woman movement and etc, is like a weaving all together. It's scattered, it's scattered, but, but it's like, it's like a one cell to one cell, and it will become a really nice.
Host 1:06:13
What, yeah, what also strikes me is that there's this expression in English that the Darkest Hour is before the light. And I think that the situation that's devolved in Myanmar is so tragic and so awful and so scary, and yet the military is not winning. It's been well over three years. They're not winning. Most analysts don't really see a strong pathway for them to victory. And if the people against all odds, and with the extraordinary diversity that you find within Myanmar, if they were to continue to topple this military, and then, after the military is toppled, find a way to have a representative federal democracy with local governance structures and protections for people of all different backgrounds, diversity, etc, in that region. Then this is reflecting back to what was said just a little bit ago in our talk of in Southeast Asia, where is the country or the party or the government that we can point to as something that is positive, that we can at least try to build upon that as at least we have some hope that's going on the right track. It is remarkable to think that with all the carnage and awfulness happening in Myanmar, if they're able to turn this corner, then this has the potential to go from being the the destabilizing factor in Southeast Asia, to the bright, shining gem of possibility that can, can can go to ignite the movements in transnationally in all these other countries. So talk about the feeling if, if Myanmar is able to turn that corner. This is no small understatement of what this would mean. But if they were able to turn this corner of toppling the military and then not, not devolving into factionalism and ethnic conflict, but actually, roughly messy, as happens in all parts of the world, even in the West, start to build the start to put together the building blocks of what it means to have a federal democracy. What would that mean for Indonesia? What would it mean for milk tea Alliance? What would it mean for the region?
Evy 1:08:32
Yeah, it will. It will mean everything. I mean, like, we've been doing this together. For Myanmar is like, for three years and and had more. So when Myanmar wins, Myanmar, the people of Myanmar win. It's our willing to, and it's actually will very meaningful, I mean, for other country in ASEAN because maybe what's happening in other countries or will be different, like in Indonesia, the milestone of the democracy. I think right now, everyone will see that you are right, but yeah, we don't know ahead what will happen and if, and I actually believe if there's one winning, one rising of people powers, democracy, I think it will become like, like a like every other country too. Will we have this, that spirit, that civil society spirit, you know, to like, yeah, we can. We can rise against the dictatorship. We can, like, prevent our democracy intoxinate with the with that dictatorship, and we have this, like, very playful, very playful. Like. Like, like, what is it term, or, or something we say that sip of milk a day can get the dictators away. It should be adapters away. With is a dictators away. So Milk Sea alliances also believe is we also recognize a small, small winning a small progress is also, is also a progress towards the movement. So if we, if Myanmar is a family, can get down the dictators, I think the spirits will be like for us?
Host 1:10:42
Yeah, I think also one has to say that if you can do it in Myanmar, you could do it anywhere. I mean, come on, if you're looking at the strength of this military, their brutality, the lack of support that they've gotten from all directions, the complex ethnic history and tensions that have developed there. And I think for anyone in the region who knows anything about Myanmar history and contemporary issues, if you can do this in Myanmar, you really can do it anywhere. You really don't have an excuse in any other country to and this also contrasts with this pessimism we talked about earlier, this feeling of hopelessness sometimes, of like, where's the example? Like, where's the thing you can hold on to, at least, at least over here. They're doing this, at least over there. There's some sign of, you know of this, how quickly things change. Where you can look at if they are able to turn this corner, wherever you are in the region, you you simply cannot say, well, the odds are stacked against us, because the stakes, how high the stakes are, how difficult the situation is, the resilience is needed, and the odds that are, that that they are facing are, are far and away, Something so extreme that one simply has to, just to to give the nod of what they've been able to do, and realize if it can happen, there can happen anywhere in the region. So that has to be something that is held on to.
Evy 1:12:13
yeah, yeah. I agree with you. So really like working on that. We, we will never stop until it's, it's, what's you, what you say as also relevant. And I think, yeah, we should not stop even there's, a possibility. We should not stop. We should stay aware. Because, you know, regime can like raising just night for from what history taught us, the cop and etcetera can happen in this like night, without we even, even now yet. So we should be aware, keep the hub light up, but we should be like, very concerned, or of others thing that might happen, and keep the solidarity like strong stronger and better, and centering the collective care and the fun and the creativity and the imagination so We can all can have like, protect each other, because you, you say that we are in the front for front of this movement, so it's important to to, like, taking care of each other and, and, yeah, I think the fighting it's like, will be like, I don't know it is. There's not a timeline for a fight, right? There's no retired, retired activist, I don't think there is. It's like, it's like a life commitment. It a lifetime commitment, right? And it's, is it not scary to me? It's not, it is not like burden to me, but it's actually transformed me the way I see everything, like friendship, family, collective, community is is is really different right now, and the way I see how the world's working, how the Yeah, it's just very different. And I really glad that I met to this point. I mean, if a. So if I'm not, like, going into this kind of activism, I think I can be like, having a very, I don't know, like, just a life working and having a family and etc, etc, but I think that's, that's, that's just not my that's not my battle. I choose this, this path because, because it's like the accumulation of what I experience that I already saw to you, but how I struggling to growing up as a woman and privilege, and it makes me like more, and I actually, I have This military background in my family, actually. So my grandfather, the two of my grandfather is, is a military and there they are, like the they working when there's in New Order regime. There's several moment, there's a there's a several like killings that happening in the order regime, to the activists and to common people. That's my that actually, my grandfather did that. And I'm study history before. I'm studying history in college. And there's, there's a subject of military history. And when I and I have this research, a research paper that I must do, and I do interview with my grandfathers, and I, I see him like telling a story about the killings and etc, and for for them, it's like, just, it doesn't come in. It's not like, it's not like a violent for them, and I think it's really scary and crazy. And maybe because of that, that experience also make me like, Not, not. I mean, sometime when it Yeah, I I recognize that sometimes we need a violence in our resistance. But for now, I think what I want to do with my life is like keeping this non violence movement, keeping this non violence effort to like making um, so like making, making, I don't know it will be very cringe if I say the world's better, or it will be very cringe. But I do. I did what? Why I did that yet that because I think that's, that is my hub. So, so, yeah, I think, I think, I think that's why, accumulation of my experience, of my what's happening also in my life is shaping me into this part, and I not even a second regret this. I'm really happy that I'm being connected with all other friends in this movement. I'm really happy that that even when, when I yeah, there's, there's always, there's always, like a trait to us, or terror to us, or anything. But I know I have my friends. I know we have each other, and this is not only me in this in this fight. So that's what fooled me.
Host 1:19:13
I think what's also beautiful about what you say is you're touching upon a reciprocal relationship, that this is not just a case of, well, Myanmar is going through hell, and so we just have to pity it and help it and and we have a responsibility to to stand by and just give to them. But no, this is a two way relationship, and this is like with with a person, like with a person going through a traumatic experience, you're not just giving to them and they're taking but even in those situations, there's this reciprocal way of being able to open up, to share, to learn, to grow in those moments, and what that means to you. And I think that the in addition to the innovative resilience that the Burmese are showing to the world, and especially. The region where it's very relevant. There's also this issue, going back to what we said a little bit ago, that that if, if this can happen in Myanmar, can happen everywhere, There will be celebrations among activist communities and progressive communities all over Southeast Asia for what this shows as a possibility, I think wishing for the victory of the Burmese people is, in that sense, not a sign of just wishing well for them, but it's actually a very healthy selfish desire. It's a very healthy selfish desire to see that if you can carry this struggle on your own backs, and whether this burden come out successfully, we are going to be the beneficiaries in so many different ways, and so wishing for that success, helping that success, standing and supporting in whatever ways that you can do to help build that wave against these awful authoritarians, this is their victory. Is going to be your victory?
Evy 1:20:59
Yeah, of course, of course. As a as I said before, it's very feminist. Actually. One of the quotes from feminist feminist figure is like, if other woman's not free, then I'm not free too. I think that's the that's really shaping my activism, too, and also, like I forget who, who's the legislated. But when I, when I start become journalists in schools, I believe that I am not important. But the story is so I am really not important. What the important is the movement is going what important is like the spirit in youth that that willing to do this genuine activism. I think that's what's important. And I really want this, that desire that I have, it can be like a replica or transferring to others. So we have, we can have, like this mutual desire for freedom.
Host 1:22:22
Yeah, and I think that's what your story is doing. And I really love that you've just as we've come to the end of our talk, you have naturally just segwayed it back to the beginning. And you've you've done my work for me, and in being able to connect your own, to connect being on the front lines of a battle with darkness and a hopeful turning of the corner with your student days of sitting down to type up an article about corruption in the school and it leading to this, and then also connecting that to whatever listeners are out here that can hear your story. You're not coming from a privileged background and where things have been laid out for you. You've had to manage the difficulties in your own life and society, while also transcending and rising above that to be able to care beyond about something about greater issues and so so also someone listening can realize, well, what can I do? How can I how can I make a difference in those ways that matter to me, and those injustices that I see around the world, and whether it's, you know, however, in whatever form, it starts, and then it starts to crescendo with a momentum that does sweep away. So that's a really beautiful reflection to leave with our audience.
Evy 1:23:37
I really enjoy talking to you, because sometimes what we do in the activism is not only about about the issue or the concept or the theory or anything. Sometimes it's about, it's about, it's all about our feeling. It's all about our love to life and our love to others. I think I'm not yet saying enough love in this podcast, so I want to, like, make sure I'm saying Love is a radical act in this in this moment, because, yeah, with it's it's also actually answering your question before, about a transfer that transformed the darkness, and we process it with the community and the community. It's the community itself, like have giving, giving in and giving out love. So so we can learn, we can grow. We can. Yeah, I think we should like at some point, not we can. We can stop being resilient. At. Campaign. We can we can stay. We can have, we can stop. We can like, sometimes we can like, taking car, taking care of each other is also like a pulse, like a pause button. We can push the pause button and yeah, that is love. I think love is can radicalize you if you, if you go with the path of love, I think the power of love is like limitless, and it can like very well. So yeah, don't forget to love loving yourself and loving others. Spread love you.
Host 1:26:12
Many of you are quite familiar with our nonprofit Better Burma, which was formed in the weeks following the military coup and carries out humanitarian missions around the country. But did you know that we also have a shop that carries handicraft source from Artisan communities throughout Myanmar. We take great pride in all of our products being 100% Myanmar made from the materials to the design to the workmanship, from the thanica artfully incorporated on the dolls faces to the cats and frogs wearing scarves made of traditional lungy fabric, they all clearly show they were made in the golden land. So your gift will bring a little bit of authentic Myanmar into the home of its recipient, and even if just a little, will help keep the people and culture alive in our hearts. And most importantly, your purchase will not only support the livelihood of the artisans, but also help fund our wider humanitarian and media missions, please take a moment to visit our shop at alokacrafts.com that's Aloka A, L, O, K, A crafts, C, R, A, F, T, S, one word .com, of course, as is your preference, you can also consider making a donation through our normal channels if you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method, Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need it most donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement, CDM, families of deceased victims, internally displaced person, IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries, education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies, covid relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode, all of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission, Better Burma. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website, betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites, except credit card. You can also give via PayPal, by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon, Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search Better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org, that's Better Burma, one word, spelled B, E T, T, E R, B, U, R, M, A.org. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artisan communities across Myanmar, available at alokacrafts.com any purchase will not only support these artisan communities, but also our nonprofit's wider mission that's Aloka crafts spelled, A, L, O, K, A, C, R, A, F, T, S, one word, alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.