Transcript: Episode #319: Beyond the Golden Triangle
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Host 00:11
Just a quick note before today's show, while we have transformed our entire platform to respond to the ongoing crisis, increasing our production of both podcast episodes and blogs, we cannot continue without your support. Please consider making a donation or contributing as a volunteer To support our active engagement At this critical time. Please for this episode of Inside Myanmar podcast, we are continuing our exploration of the Myanmar media landscape and going into what they've been covering and some of the challenges of the whole industry, basically having to operate in exile, and the challenges that poses. And for this episode, we're going to be getting regional, and we're going to be getting granular and looking at particularly the kinds of content and regional access that Mekong news covers in their reporting. So I'm excited to be able to bring you the founder and editor of Mekong news to talk about his journey and the journey of the publication. I'd like to welcome you for taking the time to join us, if you can introduce yourself and share a bit about your background and the early days of your publication.
Nyan Linn Htet 02:33
Yes and Hello. My name is Nyan Linn Htet. I am founder and Managing Editor of Mecca news. Mekong news was based in Khin, Chile, and was founded in September 2019, we are covering the Shan State in Myanmar and currently state, currently state, especially our target area is East Asian state. Eastern State is famous with its smart juggling and other crime cases. And dashile is the city of Korean triangle where the malao Thailand and China made. I started my journalism career in 2012 and in 2018 I moved to touching day in East Asian state, and I found that there a lot of interesting story that that uncover in media. And I walk, I walk as a managing editor in regional media outlet and and I found that I can, I can do, I can do more, or even in my if in my own. So by collaboration with Luke, look at Luke rapporta, one of my friend and I found I decided to found that Mekong news my my initial aim, aim is to uncover the interested story in eastern Shan state, including traditional and culture of ethnicities.
Host 04:32
And so why Tachi Lake and why Eastern chan state? Because you're not from there. I've I believe you're from the Go region. And so why go to a place where regionally, ethnically, culturally, even linguistically, was so different from you and your background?
Nyan Linn Htet 04:53
Yes, ta Chile was the very new place to me when I moved. So when I, when I moved back, eventually, I found that we can do many, many things, many, many new things as a channel is in that area, and it is. It is not. It is not very difficult to communicate with. Look at PPE and and that's why I choose touchile and essential state.
Host 05:31
Yeah, was there something in the region that or the people or the culture? Was there something there that really grabbed you compared to all the other places you could have chosen to go?
Nyan Linn Htet 05:41
Yes at that area there, there are legislatures attended am organizations and like UW Sa and NTA Myla, they, they are their role. Their role is very important in Myanmar Peace Building Project. And also that there are some interesting thing, like dressing in that area. That area is very famous with is dressing. And also there are some minor ethnic people like aka and lahou, and they are tradition and gacha are very interested. Yeah, that's why these things are the ones I want to grab.
Host 06:43
I see. So you have three things that are really grabbing your attention, the very small ethnic minorities that haven't come in contact with in other places, the armed groups and the drug smuggling. So let's look at those three things individually and independently to understand the context of the region that you were not just based in personally, but you were professionally, having to report as media. And before getting into those three categories, if I can ask you what, what was it like being a journalist and being the head of a whole media organization in a region where you had these real sensitivities? I mean, drug operations don't really welcome outside investigative journalism, ethnic armed organizations are probably more interested in amplifying their message than accurate, objective journalism, peering into what they're doing and how they're doing it. So what were some of the challenges of being media in a place where all this was going on?
Nyan Linn Htet 07:39
Yes, there are a lot of challenges to cover these issues, because, as you know at that area, prepare can be key easily, Even though you are journalists or man, so we need to, we, we need to negotiate with many things to cover, to cover story at that area. Yet the biggest challenge is our safety, and we need to take care in in every reporting. And we need to we need to negotiate with and cruise and authorities, and we had to listen, they are wise and they are a desire. So for me, there are a lot of challenges, like safety and traveling and things like that.
Host 08:58
Is there an example you can think of of a story pre coup that you wanted to report on, and you were trying to report on, and you you were unable to really proceed in the way you would have liked, because of safety issues or because of lack of access. Is there some example you can tell us about?
Nyan Linn Htet 09:16
Yes, in 2019 there was a case. There was a assassinate, Assassination case in touch late that was killing, killing the most famous businessman in downtown area, shooting bank can come with motorcycle and at the traffic one, the businessman got store and did the shot and that others to. Really I, I wanted, wanted to cover fully, but some friends and authority, one, one me not to, not to go deeper, and then the funeral story, right? Yeah, I I was able to report just only about about that businessman and his background, just only that.
Host 10:31
Yeah, right, right. So you're talking about having media in a place that maybe has never been accustomed to, having media in their backyard and being able to act with more impunity, whether they're a criminal enterprise, an ethnic armed group or military figure or whatever else, this is a much more lawless kind of rule this place without rule of law, to the extent that even in some of The urban areas in Myanmar B so when you encountered these kinds of situations where something, I mean, someone, a prominent businessman, being assassinated in broad daylight in a public area, this is certainly news, and certainly news that you want to report on, and yet you're referencing a feeling of unsafety As you try to report on it. So how, as a as the editor of the main media platform in your region, how do you proceed or respond when you're trying to report on it? But people don't want this to be reported on?
Nyan Linn Htet 11:36
Oh yes, honestly, I, I had, I had to get up for my report reporting, because I had that at that area, the the especially criminal where, when negotiate with you before as much as they can, They will negotiate as much as they can when you are before they assassinate someone. So that case showed me at the time, so I have to get up, give up on reporting that story.
Host 12:18
Yeah, after the coup happened, there was a spate of violence that has continued unabated to this day, all across Myanmar, and I think some listeners might not recall or know in detail that that violence was has been consistent in other parts of the country, even before the coup, that there were places that really haven't been haven't known peace or stability, even during the time of NLD or the transition period, other places were relatively peaceful, and the coup launched a prolonged period of violence, which we're still experiencing to this day. But where you were going to Eastern Shan state, this has been marked by violence for countless years and decades and long before the coup.
Nyan Linn Htet 13:04
Yes, in Shan State, the situation is different largely other part of the country. As you know, Shan State is the legislate and logistic in the country, and there are a lot of ethnic and crews and Malaysia's, and also there are bad amount of military unit in Shan state. So it is very complicated, complicated. And as you know, in 2015 usdb government trying to, trying to get, trying to get national ceasefire agreement NCAA to usdb. Usdb government. Arranged NCA in 2015 but they can, they can. They were they were able to manage to sign only some ethnic, ethnic group organization, and to sign on SCA agreement. The main, the main eaos are in Shen state, like UW SA and NDA MND, the Kogan Kia and tnle. Yeah, they, they are, they are the members of fencc, and also in chan state there, there's a another big EU called RCSs, and they are. A UW sa crew RCS has no UW sa crew and RCSs have different political ideology, so it is difficult to get a ceasefire in the in the Shan State and and on other side, there's never military. And so the we can we can see there are three crew in Shan State is difficult to get ceasefire agreement, and between 10 after the military coup is it began more complicated as there's a there's a another organization called PDF in the region, yeah, so especially local people Safar have to suffer about these conflict and the effect, or the impact of a lot of AMP groups? Yeah, they have to, they have to pay money and prepare for the amp groups, especially respectively, who control their region.
Host 16:40
Yeah, so you say that there are different political ideologies of the RCSs and the WA and that's what made the ceasefire difficult in the pre coup years. Can, as far as you can share, can you describe what those respective political ideologies are?
Nyan Linn Htet 16:57
Yes, we can see if we can say in simple 10 why political ideology came from China, and as he has a political ideology come from Western especially, we can Say us so they have, they have different, different kind of approach to the feedback and to peace process. So we can say UW has a UW SE has uwse the cocaine and and Andy Myla have a community based political ideology so but in the region, wagwu has more power and more manpower and what form power.
Host 18:03
Yes, and how would you describe the political ideology of the RCSs
Nyan Linn Htet 18:10
Yes, to my knowledge. RCSs, but as he has said, depends on Thailand and Thailand and us, but as he has a political ideology is Just like auto crazy, just like auto crazy. They depend only on on a leader called USA, and the political ideology is just like Shan mission, a lesson.
Host 18:59
And so how would you describe the looking at these two major groups that you cover, the uswa and the RCSs, how would you describe, respectively, their relationship with the Miller military junta before the coup, and then, how did It change after the coup?
Nyan Linn Htet 19:20
In 2019 uwse hosted anniversary event called tatiya, based Beijing anniversary 30 year at that event, at that event, they show their military power, including drone and including drone and a lot of modernized weapon in their in their event, and so this. That, that show they are power, and also they are their situation in Shan State and the they have, they have a relationship with Myanmar military, but they don't obey what Myanmar military one and normal military day. And so they have their own area and big military power. So they can, they can do whatever they want in their area. And I think relationship is just like that, but a CSS situation is different with uwsc, the RCSs has has to care two side, one side is Myanmar military, and the other side is uwsc and is Alliance. So it is my opinion that RCS also don't want to fight with now military, because they are occasionally fighting, fighting with sspp is the ISA Alliance. So if the if they fight with Myanmar military, also they will have two enemies and two they will have enemy in both sides so they don't want to fight with neuro military and the I think they are, they are acting like. They are acting like water. Follow fish, follow relationship with Nima military. Yeah, I think both uwsc and ACS has relationship with your military, but there's no, there's no kind of alliance relationship, that just like water, follow fish, follow relationship, yeah.
Host 22:27
And then, since the coup, I'm curious as well, what you've seen in the change of these two principal groups, the the RCSs and the WA How have they responded differently or perhaps in similar ways, since the coup has taken place.
Nyan Linn Htet 22:43
Yes, as soon as the coup happened, RCSs declared that they don't accept the coup, and they were stand with people. This the very first statement from front, from EO after the coup. But later, the situation has changed a leisure and as I mentioned before, I see SS has two sides to take care, never military and GW as a Alliance group. So the they are, their tone, we can begin silence. Their voices begin silent on what, what Myanmar military doing. And also another challenge for RCSs is PDF in Shen state, PDF in Shen state. So most PDF in Shen state were trained by uwsc Alliance group, not uwse, tnla Kia and SS in slampad. SSBB also trained the PDF so, PDF, on RCSs side, PDF is BDS is paddle, SSBB and DNA group. So it's difficult to difficult to decide how to retrieve PDF, other situation for RCSs, I think, and so the the they, they are keeping more relationship with your military. And. At the situation and on a CSS side, on UW side, UWC, cap, they are silenced. On coup, they don't, they don't mention, they don't tell anything about that. But in 2023 they released their statement after meeting with me online in the video, in their statement, and they said that the coup and the current conflict in Myanmar is the conflict between Burmese army's people and this is federal time set, not not the matter of ethnic people like Wah at the that is just, there's only one statement about the coup and but on the other hand, some PDF are trained by were trained by dnle and Kie. They are also member or FB NCC. So if, if uwse has a strong desire not, not to take back in the current conflict, they were, I think they were denied of training the PDF, so, but they also kept silent on that, that that's, that's what we can see about RCSs and uwse.
Host 26:45
Yeah, that's an excellent explanation. Thank you for that. And it's um, it's a, it's a, an alphabet soup of acronyms that are being thrown around. We can only hope that the listeners can follow with how extremely complicated it is and the picture that you're painting of the UW SA is really fascinating in terms of how they're seeing their alliances and what they're saying. Because on one hand, you're talking about a joint statement made with the dictator min Aung hlaing in napida, the capital, officially, formally declaring this is not a part of a national uprising, but this is a bamar on bamar internal conflict, which is code for let them handle it the way they want to handle it. Yet at the same time, you're also talking about some of the other eaos that the uwsa is aligned with, particularly the Kia the tnla, among others, who are taking an active part in sheltering and training and even leading operations with PDFs, which are, of course, made of bamarre, largely from urban areas that are being trained specifically with the purpose of going and attacking the Burmese military. And so it does sound a bit like talking out of both sides of their mouth. And then we haven't even mentioned where China fits in here, and the relationship between the Chinese and the WA and how that further complicates all this. So and I should mention as well, you haven't gotten into this, but we've had past podcast guests who have talked about the role that the UW sa has played in arms manufacture, and how they many of the small arms that are that, that the PDFs, as well as other yayos have, are coming from WA factories, that there's clear signs of this as well. And so I wonder if all this, hearing all of this, I think the mind can be full of apparent contradictions of how this in the world all fits together. Perhaps one simple answer, and I wonder what you think of this, is that they're simply hedging all their bets. They're simply trying to to be able to have it all at once, so that, however this turns out, that they're well situated and and can respond to how things unfold.
Nyan Linn Htet 29:09
Yeah, I think, in my opinion, the coup, the coup is just the the cool, the cool impact has, has the cool impact has good for something good for ethnic people and ethnic organization. And just before, before the coup, be from mainland to not understand, where about the, about the situation, or ethnic and cruise and ethnic people, what suffer? What ethnic people suffer in their land? Now the A. A majority of Burmese people now understand how their military is protest and and they are the dev or cry down on, on the on the people, just like burning down the village at first before the coup, most of people from mainland don't believe that, and now they suffer on their own and so and other thing is about The normal military. Before the coup, the one military has to fight only with ethnic and cruise and and not in mainland. Now there, there are a lot of resistant crew in mainland, and they have to focus on it and and they have to release, they have to release their control on ethnic area, many areas. So the coup has the coup give some opportunities to eao and ethnic prepare. So I think what uwse Always, always asks to phone waste, a waste in their area they are political aim is that that to to get our state and also every eao has, every eao in Shan state has their own aim. So I think they were they were they were they were fun. They were they were to their dream come true using, using some good opportunity of of the coup. And so they were, I think they were also have. PDF and energy, because of if the if they have PDF, they will have more manpower, manpower to fight. Never military, I think back, but they are their main purpose is to get to achieve their political aim, something like waste and tnle control area and cocaine cocaine control area. So I a PDF and energy and bami resistance for need to, need to to time set for their political aim. My opinion, they cannot, they cannot depend. They cannot depend on EO and EU and other air force to get there, to achieve their their policy getting, I mean, eaos, every EO were to, were due to get, to achieve what they aim. And after that they were, they were not. They were not involved actively in the and the revolution.
Host 34:05
And so that brings up the obvious question of what those political aims are. And this leads into this wider discussion of looking at to what extent the different fighting groups in the country are really aimed at trying to have a genuine federal democracy, and to what extent we can anticipate once the strongman and military goes away, we can start to fear the possibility of continued ongoing conflict and and a power vacuum that these groups then fill with continued fighting and strife or balkanization, that all these different groups kind of split into their own individual entities, and it further disintegrates. What are your thoughts about looking just particularly at this microcosm of Eastern Shan State and the principal ethnic groups that. Things are present there. What are your thoughts into what these ultimate political aims that they desire to be?
Nyan Linn Htet 35:06
Yes, this is my opinion. I think most every, every, leaders of EO talk about federal democracy, right? I think it is the, it may be a second, second thing, or second political aim of 10. I think uh, to get, to get their control area is the first, first political aim for them, just like UW SA, UW sa has their own control area and they can pay their military power more and more and so every every government cannot take control over them. So I think most the first and main political aim of every eo is about that, yeah, if they don't have their control area and military power and power, They cannot. They think they were thinking they cannot. They cannot negotiate with every government, every government on the TV. Yeah, so you can, you can see that is now fighting, fighting for, fighting for Rakhine State, and is almost almost taken control completely. And also tnle. Tnle Fight for, fight for, fight for, fight to control that their area and and also a cool camp fight for their own administration area. So maybe they are ideology. Political ideology is copy from UW SA. They they want to be just like UW SA and uwse has their own control area and and they, they don't fight, they don't fight match with other group, including Yama Army. And they pay. They are powered in in in recent years. So now they began the biggest group, and even military cannot control that. I think that is the dream of most EU now fighting.
Host 38:16
So if you're saying that the UW SA is a kind of model that the other eaos might be inspiring to. I think this is the kind of statement that would have many Western allies and international observers on the edge of their seat cringing with a statement like this. Because when you're looking at the possibility of a federal democracy, a post coup, post tamadov Federal democracy in Myanmar. I haven't heard too many indications that this is something that the UW sa in particular is all that thrilled about and all that motivated to want to support and to create. They that that's that doesn't necessarily give them more security or more revenue or more stability than the their current setup as they have it now. And so if you're saying that some of that, this is the aim of every ethnic armed group, or many of the big ethnic armed groups, or even some of the big ones, this seems to be a clear indication towards this fear of disintegration, balkanization. Now, some have asked the question, we can bookmark this, because this would be a side note. Some have said, Hey, balkanization isn't such a bad thing. That's not if things do go this way, it's not that this. What is this federal union anyway? It's a bunch of British colonialists, you know, centuries ago, that were just poring over a map and putting artificial boundaries in places that the bamar kings of centuries never even controlled.
Nyan Linn Htet 39:50
Yes, I don't mean the they are not interested in federal democracy. Maybe the federal democracy is the final aim of A. Their final aim, or their quality care aims, and the first, the first aim is to get control their own control area and to pay military power and so federating a federal I think it is my opinion. I think the federal democracy is federal democracy will be very difficult to get in Myanmar. It will depend on on the the quality of leaders who control, who control and cruise and groups and political party, they need to. They need to. They need to do wisely, and they need to think about the prepare and not not their interest. So if, if they can do wisely, and they think about their prepared federal democracy, where, where we achieve, if not other situation. And I think many, many leader, leaders of armed crew and and crews are doing their own doing for their own interest, and not nothing about the people. So they were, they were, one day, they were talking about, they were talking about federal democracy, but it is had to achieve, if they only, if they only do for their interest. I mean, after, after the after both, never military era, right?
Host 42:24
So let's move on now to the second issue that you mentioned. Grabbed you and grabbed your interest about this region when you decided to go and set up a media operation there, and that's the illicit drug trade the Golden Triangle region.
Nyan Linn Htet 42:38
Yeah. As for me, it is very I was very surprised I when I, when I moved to touchile about dress smuggling in in mainland or in mainland, is it is difficult to find track like Yama, Yama, or other other drug, like ice, is difficult to find, but in touchy Lake you can, you can even find on the street, on every street and well, yeah, the price is very low if you pay 100 but you can, you can get Five to six Yamata black. So in in that area are using manufacturer using drugs and manufacturing drugs are just like normal thing. Even Even all military officer and police officer know who, who are manufacturing the drug and where they manufacture the drug, but they ignore. They ignore mostly about that because there's two reason. There are two reasons. One is corruption, and they get a lot of money from that. And second is their safety, if, if the if they see and and crack down on manufacturer manufacturing side, I they will also have to fight back from the from the so most, most government authority ignore about that if I. In in what people are saying is a if, the if the authority sees a car with track on front, from the other front, other road, tanker, tanker withdraw. Past. Yet that's I can I can even talk about that because I am now in a side. I don't dare to about that situation if I am in East Asian state, area is very dangerous, and there are a lot of interest of groups, including Yangon military.
Host 45:59
So you're saying that the only reason that you're answering these questions now is because you're in exile, and so you feel you're in safety if you were in Myanmar, and when you were in Myanmar, these were not topics you addressed publicly. Is that correct? Yes. And so you mentioned there are very powerful interests. Can you if you feel comfortable and safe now being in exile. Can you expand on the nature of what these interests are?
Nyan Linn Htet 46:28
Yeah, track, drag issue is related to the related to the beast browser, because to fight, to fight and beta, to beat up Military power and other expenses, to for other expenses every every organization need, many and Dr smugly, is one of the one of the main income sources of every organization in in that area so, but sometime, sometimes we we can see some news of season, Seasons and rating, rating manufacturing, drum manufacturing area, there's a that's something that's only for sure, and they if after after season, seasons raiding manufacturing site, they will manufacture more and more drag every that's why in you can see that this there's there's less resistance and crew brought democracy mumma in East Asian state less than other part of area because of the kind of things related to their interest. They they negotiate with each other to to grab money and to grab to get income for their interest, and they don't want to fight each other. You You can see significantly. And so drug is one of one of the one of those things.
Host 48:55
Yeah, that's fascinating. And when you talk about the drugs that are being produced there, is that mostly methamphetamine, or is it, is there also heroin and poppies coming?
Nyan Linn Htet 49:06
Yeah, before the coop, the the growing, growing of your in plant, Poppy, Poppy, plant, reduced significantly in Shenzhen, but manufacturing Yama and ice is more more benefit, more benefit from get more benefits. So I uh, manufacturing, manufacturing, kamikatra. Kamikatra is more easy and easy, and can make more profit. So before the coup. Are manufacturing chemical track. Chemical track is higher than heroin, manufacturing heroin, but after the after the coup, economy, the country economy he began, became wired and wired and prepare people start growing bad heroine, start manufacturing heroin, back and now I think it began, began, uh, equate in amount, uh, manufacturing drug and hearing.
Host 50:52
Yeah and where is this? Where are these drugs going? Where are they being sold?
Nyan Linn Htet 50:57
Yeah, uh, the chemical need for drug. The chemical need for drugs, need for drug manufacturing can come from neighboring countries, significantly, Thailand and China. Yes, what where where they go is where they go is just like that. Look at look at prepare. Look at the user. Look at prepare is not much normal, like smuggling to other end country. Yeah, Shasta is just a place of manufacturing, manufacturing, the drugs, the raw material needed to manufacture the drug are king coming from the neighboring country, like Thailand and China, and the dread. The Dread has been sold to those country because, look at people don't use, don't use, or what are other amount of manufacture in shares, right?
Host 52:41
Yeah, there's so much being produced.
Nyan Linn Htet 52:42
Yeah, another, another, another, another track. Track is going to country like Bangladesh are passing through the whole mainline of Myanmar, and from Shan state to the the the care they carry the drought from Shan State to Rakhine State, that's a lot long way, but has to pass a lot of state and region, and then the the drug are sold to Bangladesh.
Host 53:32
So China has very strict drug laws, so I can't imagine that Beijing is very happy with a bunch of cheaply made mass narcotics that are flooding into their country. So is has China taken any action to try to stop the manufacturer the product or the supplies that are going over there, or the illegal smuggling of drugs into their country? What has been their response to this huge influx of math now flooding the markets.
Nyan Linn Htet 54:03
Yeah, China has, China has a Savi punishment on using dread and smuggling threat and but that's why prepare. That's why the Trust me. Trust me sold their their protest to Thailand, mostly, I, I, I, I never had about seizing a man or drug in China.
Host 54:58
And you talk about how the nature of these drug operations across eastern Shan State has changed the nature of the conflict, and perhaps even the means to those political objectives, even if the political objectives themselves are not changing, but the means of getting there and the relation to the rest of the conflict and the country against the military that what we're seeing in eastern shunt state is different because of the presence of the Golden Triangle, and that because the as you say, and as Patrick Wynn has said, who's also been a guest on this podcast, that that in order to build and sustain a military, you need to have a lot of fund, and drugs are one of the fastest and most efficient ways to be able to build that fund. And so there is all the different groups that are there, even if they're not quite getting along, they see that this trade needs to continue in some form, to continue to supply their armies and to have their militaries intact. And so the question is, are would you say that all of the different fighting forces that are present in this region, that all of them, to your knowledge, have some kind of stake in the drug trade, and where does the Myanmar military fit into this as well?
Nyan Linn Htet 56:19
Yes, i To my knowledge, I I cannot say all parties are involved in drug manufacturing, but I but to my knowledge, our drug drug manufacturing please us move from place to place inside The Shan State, after the after the coup, after the coup. Sam, Sam crews. Sam and crew accept the manufacturing, manufacturer in their places and bad for for smuggling. Most, most uncle, most Uncle, have to had, had to involve in smuggling because present they hopefully they were, they were no fancy from their area and but mostly they ignore about it, because they got, they got some benefit from sure that.
Host 57:55
Yeah, and how about the military? How are they involved in the smuggling.
Nyan Linn Htet 57:58
They got large amount of money from by ignoring the smuggling, smuggling ways.
Host 58:07
I see, and we've heard a lot about these scam centers. We've had Jason tower on who has one of the leading analysts in researching about the presence of these scam centers. Are there scam centers to your knowledge, that are functioning in the Tashi league area in eastern Shan state that you've covered?
Nyan Linn Htet 58:26
Yeah, the daskam centers are located in touchy Lake Since 2019 to my knowledge, there were two scam center in touch lake in 2019 and one, or my sources, businessman sus to talk about that at the time they he can, he can even believe about that, because he can even believe that there, there, there was a, there was a kind of business like that, scam center. Yet, since he said, he talked about that since 2019 but at the time, I that the topic about that is not very popular and people cannot be paid, did not notice about that in 2000 2020 again, from camoria, contact, contact me to rescue his friend. To rescue her friend that he who, who were, who was tracked in a scam. Center in touch day, yeah, at that time i i, I informed about that to police, police station and as as I family, always Township police officer, I talk about I informed about that to him, and he, he, he went to that place with his forces and such search for him. Bad days, nothing in that area. And so I asked, I asked, I asked the Cambodian care about, about what the history, history of history, and finally, I know that he, he, that his, her friend is a guy from scan center, and he already, she already lose 115,000 US, dollar in amount after playing a game, A game from his friend, a half friend, so I, I write about, I write igapa about that story, and I became noticed. Eventually there a lot of scam center in Shan State and TA, Chile. And after, after after that. China, Chinese government, also, Chinese government, want to crack down on this scam center because of, because of the impact, in fact, to to their citizens and now most scam center move to move to the place, please, places of Lao area, We know this about that.
Host 1:02:20
Yeah, so you describe discovering this, can't this scam center as early as 2019 and 2020 and what surprises me about that is, in our interview with Jason tower, he described the development of these scam centers largely arising from covid which would be 2020 then post 2020 because the casinos couldn't operate as normal, and so they were, they ended up being converted into kind of scam centers. But you're describing the existence of these operations. If you're talking 2019 You're certainly talking before covid. So what can you clarify that timeline. And also talk about, if it was before covid, this would very much be an early precursor of something that was to become very, very bad, very, very soon. So if you can describe the nature of what, as far as you were able to tell in your investigation, what, what was the scam center doing?
Nyan Linn Htet 1:03:19
Yes, yes. Just just as you mentioned, it is began large, less and less amount in numbers of scan standard became, became in covid, covid period, and to my, according to my investigation, the scam Center. In scam center, all workers need to, need to find out, find out the fitting a man, a man or woman, a person who, who can, who can be scam, can be scanned they used many ways, many ways, including such attrition, including profit attrition, including romantic relationship, just like that, they use many, many ways to get many from, from from the fitting. One of my soldiers, who, who, who is, who was released from the scan center told me that they they need. To, he need to find a person, person or Virgin, to to scan, to my scan, one person a day, if, if he cannot find he, he cannot, he cannot get salary. He cannot get salary in scan, gam, scam, worker, workers also, also, also, also the vision, the vision of the business owner, yeah, they cannot, if they, if they cannot, scan the money, they will not get salary. And the if, if, if, the if, if a worker, want to wonder, wants to resign, resign from the from the job. He need to he or she need to pay fine, fine money, find money to the business so most of, most of scan Center are a bit compound, a big compound. And there, there are a lot of prepare. There a lot of workers, including speak time, speak Chinese, speak English and speak promise. And they are as their target, as their target, as their targets are from from rich country like China, China and European country and us and Thailand. So that business need these people who can speak a that kind of language, language. So the in their compound there are. There are a laurel horse there, and walking area and dining area, and even Baba shot in takomba.
Host 1:07:37
Yeah, right, I see. Okay. Let's move on now and get to the last item you said, that was a particular interest area in eastern Shan State. And learn about this subject, both before the coup and then as it changed after the coup, and that was the the very small minority groups that are only found in certain pockets of this part of the country.
Nyan Linn Htet 1:08:04
Yes, when I, when I moved to East Asian state, I found that there, there are some interesting minor ethnic groups, like a car and Lahu in that area. And also, they are also small, minor, minor ethnic group in that area. And they are, they are culture. Their culture and traditions are very interesting. Very, very interesting. And, and also, another, another, another thing is about, about the literacy in that area, and the literacy rate, literacy rate or Eastern State, is the lowest in the country, in the country. So what I found, what I found is a what I found about the literacy rate is about is related to dress magling and drug plan, related to drugs because Prepare and as, as, just like many Bora area as Myanmar, Myanmar language is not is not useful, useful like other country, other other languages, like Thai or Chinese. So. Many young people don't want to learn my language, and so that's why they cannot. And also they don't. They they are not. They are they don't interest about education, if, if they can speak Thai or Chinese, if they can get they can easily get a job with a good income, and if bad, if you are, if you if you are, if you are, educate, educated from Myanmar University. That's not very useful for for them, and also in rural area where area prepare can easily get many trial. And so they use you, uses and digital. They don't interest about education at all. So, and also, one, one more thing is related to permanentization, privatization, ethnic, prepare ethnic people need to, need to be, need to be, teach, buying them a language in in their primary school. So children, children are speaking their own language at home, and when they go, when they when they go to school, they they are, they are teach by the teaching language is Burmese language, so they don't Understand, they don't understand language, and also alphabet. So I think using their own language as a teaching language, a teaching language is only only, only in 2012 and 2013 13 before that that they need to learn in Myanmar language and they don't understand that is the one of the bigger challenges for for them to to go to school.
Host 1:12:35
That's that's a really dark and compelling picture that you're painting both about the lives of ethnic minorities as well as really the future of this country in this union, and what it means. Because on one hand, you're saying that these these ethnic youths, a degree from a Burmese University and a fluency in Burmese doesn't really do almost anything at all for their future job prospects. But then another aspect that you touch upon is that it's kind of the worst of both worlds. I guess you can say where, on one hand, they're being force fed a diet, a burmanization, both of I'm sure history, you didn't mention this, but I'm sure it's a very romanized version of history that doesn't so much acknowledge their own peoples or their own history, but more of the the propagandized, militarized burmanized version, but then also language. So they're they're force fed a dose of Burmese language that it sounds like they're not understanding. They're not they're not learning Burmese properly, and they're speaking their ethnic language at home, and then they're not investing. There's no reason for them to invest and follow through with a a Burmese language diet going forward, because that's not going to give them anything in the country. So they they then have a smattering of Burmese before going on to try to master Chinese or Thai, to be able to seek those opportunities abroad. And as you're saying this, I'm just struck by what this, again, means about federal democracy, and how are you able to have to support a Burmese curriculum that is able to bring people into what hopefully is a stable Federal Democratic structure, while also allowing them to encourage and follow through with their own native tongue and preserve that, and to hopefully grow up being bilingual, or even more than bilingual, and to the extent that they're then able to stay in that country and serve that country, that they're able to, you know, I'm just, if you just imagine a future where a I don't know, an Aka or Allah, who comes to Mandalay or Yangon and gets their doctor degree, and gets it by studying, taking courses in Burmese and English, and then goes back to their own aka or laho community and is able to administer medical care or whatever else it is they're doing. And then and code switch, as happens in many countries and societies, and go back into the native language. Of that village and taking, having taken that professional knowledge with them, rather than the situation we see now, where you have more of a burmanized approach that then doesn't serve anything. So they want to learn Chinese or Thai, to go across the border, to advance their economic opportunities and their career.
Nyan Linn Htet 1:15:23
Yes, there are, there are many area in Myanmar, like Eastern Shan State, and so we need to, we need to change our education system. We need to think about a minor, minor ethnic people. We, we need to. We, we need to. We need to do many things after post military work and I would like to share about a story that happened recently. How, how, how bad is this? A man, a man from a woman from Lahore village, had to born a baby. It is that time, that time was seven, time of her labor, and he cannot he. She cannot she. She was not able to able to give bad, give back in in half village and people be near her, advice that. Advice to take three pillow or Mother, mother, vitamin to get strength, to give bad. And after, after taking three pillow, three tablets of Yama, she she was able to give bad. Bad the baby is not alike. Live and come, came out in peace, peace so in in a area of ethnic, ethnic people, they are they are about drag, about their literacy, about their knowledge. Are very about their knowledge, about the hair care system, about the education, everything is really bad.
Host 1:17:57
yeah, yeah, that's that's certainly important to bring in mind and to know that reality and what do you I know that after the coup, you and your operations had to leave, as did all media everywhere in Myanmar for safety. But as far as you've been able to tell, what do you know is happening within these communities now, and how are they being affected by the military coup and the ongoing violence?
Nyan Linn Htet 1:18:20
Yes, our before the coup, there a lot of low care media, regional media and ethnic media, in in in the in in the in the in their focus area. And they're a lot of journalists. They're a member about members of parliament and people can prepare where people was, if people were able to event, to tear what they suffer and what what they had been, and also about the abuses and about the violation of human right of the enforce or local authority. They can, they were able to, they were able to tear and they can, they can journalists and media care and we were to amplify their voices at the time after, after the coup, nyama military is oppressing the media and journalist so most of some journalists need to get get off their professional and journalism career and Sam most journalists, has had to be a sign and had to be a ran away from from the from their places. So prepare, our prepare. Losses are. Yeah, 50 to 70% or they are free dental expression after the coup. So, as I mentioned before, in many ethnic area, they are, they are, they are, a lot of bad situation. Bad situation. Now, the the lost their freedoms expression and began they they began all voiceless, voice led in in the region after the coup, because of because of a town military, because of your military crackdown on independent media and just just for just for exam, the story I mentioned before about A woman give birth, story I my, my newsroom team covered that story and published on Facebook after two after two hours of being published as my Sources contact me to delete that story because the the the woman who give give back is afraid of being arrested by the police because of our news story. So finally, I had to delete that story because of her safety. Yeah, the freedom of President, freedom of expression. Expression began bad like that.
Host 1:21:51
How have the ethnic groups themselves been affected by these very small ethnic groups like the Akka and Lahu and the others? How has the military coup and the violence of the last three years affected them and their lives.
Nyan Linn Htet 1:22:08
Yes, just some, some people from minor ethnic group who, like laho and Akka, involved in revolution and anti anti Cook, anti cook movement, most of them are now in the prison and also some abusers like some abusers, like occupying occupying class that owned by ethnic people and some businessmen and local authority, authority use their many and and they are Power. Power. They occupy many lands of ethnic people in East Asian state. But now prepare ethnic people cannot, cannot find the cannot find their right. They are right. They cannot, they cannot go to police station, and they cannot go to call at this moment. And the worst thing is the the laws they are wise to amplify in publicity, yeah, they are very afraid. They are very afraid of being arrested by the by the military, if they, if they connect to independent media?
Host 1:24:05
Yeah, I see. I want to talk more about that nature of independent media, because you had set up in the transition period. You set up an independent media platform in eastern Shawn state and in Tashi Lake, and you during as imperfect as the transition period was, and as dangerous as some of the reporting you were doing was, as well on the ground, you were also able to get by. And as you talked about with me before the interview, you didn't really need to rely so much on donor organizations or grant writing. You were basically self sufficient from the start, as I understand it, relying on ad revenue and as a as a local paper should be doing anywhere in the world, being able to to have a proper business model that's able to to fund itself, to keep production. But after the military coup, the Mekong news, along with the. So many other regional and national media outlets all across the country had to literally run for their lives, and some were not able to run fast enough. And tragically, some journalists have been imprisoned, tortured and killed by remaining in the country, or simply because they were targeted and couldn't leave soon enough. And so can you talk about what it's been like for you to have to suddenly and urgently close shop, run across the border and be able to now operate in exile, as well as the challenges with Visa with with safety here to say nothing of how you were able to survive economically now that your business model has really been thrown out the window.
Nyan Linn Htet 1:25:48
Yeah, as you mentioned before, the coup, we can get our income from commercial, advertising and from the business. Commercial advertising from the business. And that income is a nurse. That income was announced to operate the the media outlet, but after the coup, we have no income at all from that, from that center, because your military give and give the pressure to stop, To stop communicating, communicating and supporting independent media as so we and and also we had, we had to run away from our places because of the Because of the run of fire fight a and many, many journalists are had to relocated to a sign and in assign we, there are a lot of, a lot of challenges for us, including expenses, less amount of expense and also legal stated things like that, and also in cam and Fanny I, I would like to, I would like to tear About that, that independent, the rural independent media is important to important for, for the prepare, for the prepare, yeah, and is it began more important in, in that kind in, in this kind of situation like Denmark, yeah, especially conflict area, because not only not only their own military you, but also most and group trying to commit human rights violation and other other violation, about violation in this situation. So even a media is one of one of few few with the blowar in this situation. And even even though they there are a lot of threat from organization. So the the existent, the existent independent media, independent media, or can, can defend and improve the freedom or expression of the prepare and do amplify in the voices or voices of local prepare, because most of local people are now in voiceless if, if, if, in the if independent media cannot, cannot operate, and their operation, their operation, small chances of defending and promoting in the freedom of expression, amplifying the voices or look at people where we come.
Host 1:29:43
Yeah, that's really true. I really want to emphasize, emphasize and underscore the critical nature of what you said and the role that independent media plays in any society, in any democracy. But certainly one, one. Where conflict has become the norm, and certainly one where tyranny is tipping the skills and is trying to act with impunity, that it is the role of independent journalism to hold that to account. So that's tremendously difficult, the situation that not just you, but the entire now exiled Myanmar media finds itself in where before, you had the media scattered around the country reporting, respectively, on those places and issues that matter to it, and now you have them operating a kind of stuck together in a very small boat, you can say, operating a very small, physical place. And what's even worse? Well, I don't know what's worse. I mean, you they're operating in exile. There's the problems with illegal status and visa. But what's particularly dangerous is that the funding sources have all narrowed tremendously, and so basically, all these different media platforms no longer are able to adhere to traditional business models and are going after the same pie. Are going after are trying to survive and stay afloat by seeking funding from the same small donor community in which funding for media, funding for Myanmar across the board, is going down everywhere. There's just not a lot of funding left for Myanmar, despite the Burma act and some of these other some of these other possibilities that we're hearing about where just the funding is not there, and there's not many other ways to get that funding.
Nyan Linn Htet 1:31:30
Yes, independent media are the Western blowers of the situation happen in on the ground as you mentioned about the funding, that's that's really true, and most, Most regional and regional local media are trying, trying very hard to survive in at this moment as the fanning, fanning narrow, narrow down tremendously, independent media, independent media can, can, can defend and promote freedom of expression, but also and also we independent media can, can, can express about, about the about the situation, what happened, what happened in the area, is important, because things like scam center is not only affected to not only affected locally, but also affected globally, absolutely if, if there's, there's no, there's no report of independent media about that, it is difficult to understand, understand by By the People of the war so and also in independent media can perform as a bridge between between wild war or conflict In the area, and also can can inform people. Can inform the people what what happened on both sides. So existent of existent of the independent media is very important. And if, if, if finding situation is not changed in came years, some of regional, ethnic and local media has to be disappear, I think or or has to reduce their operation and their newsroom operation has to reduce that sign off their news, news and reporting operation, right?
Host 1:34:39
And I want to pick up on something that you said in your answer, where you talked about how the role of independent media is to report on both sides, and I think that's that's a really important point, because certainly you want to report on the side of calling out the tyranny of the oppressor and the military regime, and to be able to uncover all the illicit and cruel and barbaric. Things that they're doing to retain their power, really, their their their hold on a kind of Mafia terror state that they're creating. But I think you also touch upon the fact that media, in principle, at least, should be fair and balanced and to as far a degree as that as possible. We can't pretend that bias doesn't exist. We all have bias as subjective humans on this earth, but we can acknowledge bias and we can mitigate it where possible. And I think this is something that sometimes can become misunderstood or confused by the Myanmar readership, that the media should be on the side of the revolution the Myanmar, that the media should be very clearly amplifying and supporting the revolution wherever possible. And this is, this is a think, if you look historically, this is a challenging, a challenging point to have to decide on where media falls on. I'm just I'm thinking, as I say this, I'm thinking about World War Two, and I'm thinking about American media that was certainly embedded and invested in the fight for America and the allies to win the war against the Nazis and the axis regime, and certainly reporters who would be privy to certain information, whether they were devastating losses or planned operations that the allies were were intending to do, or stories that could inspire the homeland or affect the morale that this was an issue and I did this. I mean, this is just one example of many that you can give of conflicts around the world with different nations, but just staying on this conflict and the American sea allies in World War Two, that there was this very careful balance that had to happen between wanting to be somewhat impartial and objective in the news that it was reporting, while also certainly having some bias and wanting America to win the war and the allies to win the war against the Nazis in Imperial Japan, and wanting to wanting its platform to contribute to the hopeful, intended victory of the allies over the Nazis during that time, and so also in Myanmar, it's much, much more complicated, because you don't just have the allies and the access powers. You have all these different eaos and PDFs and the the ways that they're fighting with each other, against each other, against the common enemy, sometimes sometimes on the side of the common enemy, and then the illicit drug trade, as we mentioned, that becomes to be involved, or the separatist balkanization that that could risk the federal democracy and the burmanization That's still prevalent and existent today, and with the nug and and, and, and that remains a concern. So it's really, really complicated in ways that perhaps other conflicts have not been, but there still is. There is a revolution taking place. There is a tyrannical enemy which does exist in the form of the Burmese military. And then there's you as independent media in the middle of all that, trying to, wanting to report objectively on what's happening. But also, this is a time of revolution, and in times of revolution, no one's impartial. Everyone is. It's very hard to be able to be without bias and to be an objective medium that's transcending all of this happening. So looking at not just the danger that's posed by the military itself, or by being in exile in a third country where your status isn't quite clear, or even of the some of the armed militias that don't want some of their illicit activities really brought to light, but also just looking at in terms of the people themselves that want this revolution to be successful, and want you as media to be on the side of a of doing everything in your power to support a successful revolution, which sometimes goes against traditionally what the job of objective media should be. But this is not a normal time. So one has to wonder, do the normal standards of journalism apply for an extremely abnormal time, or can something in there be suspended until we can get to some normalcy, which then we can operate in a more stable place?
Nyan Linn Htet 1:39:20
Yeah, as soon as the, as soon as the military coup happened, I I I did not accept. I tell my friend. I told my friend I did not accept that the coup because, because it is the stepping down of our democratic democratization. We need democracy because of, because of to protect our human right and our freedom of press, freedom of expression, also the. The role to protect the role of journalism. So the military data ship is not we know that military data ship is not good. It's not good or time we already passed in our childhood, and other military did a shit. So we don't we, we. We did not. I did not accept the coup as not only as a as a citizenship, but also as a journalist. So we but we have clear reasons why we do not accept the coup because of our human right and because of our democracy. So we we? We are we accept the democracy movement movements, but if, the, if the if the resistance force are, if, if the resistance for our platform is, if the resistance will perform, like perform, or unlike military leadership, this is what we need to report, report and as we cannot, We cannot ignore, we cannot ignore, because of the current situation. We need to, we need to report. We need to cover of the abuse and violation, violation or every, every unfolds us, and not only the Myanmar military. And also, we also need to point out the we also need to point out the missed misleading of Round, round action of every leader, every leader of the pro democracy movement, because of because, not because of personnel, a person ahead or resonate by us because of to achieve the democracy, but as far as we can, that's why we need to point out. We need to criticize, we need to report and we need to cover of abusers, violation and misleading action of resistant forces also, and if we, if we report about that, that we certainly we will get a lot of threat, and also A lot of threat from the from the resistance side, or from the people who believe, who, who absolutely have a son, belief in Hamburg Bassan, I can say blind, blind belief in, in, in the leader of pro democracy movement, but that's our duty, and that's our walk as a journalist.
Host 1:43:30
That's, that's tough, yeah? That's a tough situation to be, and you've got a lot on your hands.
Nyan Linn Htet 1:43:37
Yeah, yeah. So I it is my opinion journalism editorial policy should be not only, not only for, not only for the military, but also for those who, who, who are at like the did, I should.
Host 1:44:08
Thank you for sharing that you've got a lot on your hands. And you, I think this is another representation for our audience, shining a light on just not just how difficult the situation is Myanmar, but if people like yourself that are in a very challenging time trying to do your best and showing resilience and integrity and ethics and pointing away towards a new future, a new society that we all want to see, and if there are more people like yourselves, which I know there are In Myanmar, I have every reason to believe that this will be enough to ultimately prevail, not just against the military, but against all forms of tyranny and and selfishness and greed that are trying to overcome the the. Safe and stable society that we would all like to see, that could be at least somewhat fair and equitable to those that would like to seek a future and a safety going forward. And I think that's that's all very much what what we'd like to see. And I really thank you for your time and sharing your part of this, individually and as a, as a media team, and how you're contributing to this in this very difficult time of instability.
Nyan Linn Htet 1:45:29
Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for letting me share like this, and also I shared the situations and cases, not not not only for me, but also for the people who suffer bad from the situation, from the current situation. I hope that people around the world can understand more and more about our people and situation. Thank you.
Host 1:46:17
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