Transcript: Episode #318: Navigating the Inner Journey
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Host 00:22
Whether one is listening to this in Myanmar or from outside the country, we know it is a very difficult time for those of us who hold the golden land and its people in our hearts. In trying times like these, we can all use a bit more care and compassion in our lives. So on behalf of the team here at Insight, Myanmar, I would like to say in the traditional way, meta is offer, may you be free from physical discomfort, may you be free from mental discomfort, may You not meet dangers or enemies, May you live a peaceful and happy life, and May all beings Be free and come out of suffering. And with that, let's move On to The show you. Lin, we welcome Lynn bausfield On this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast, she is long time history with Burma, with meditation, mindfulness and therapy, and we'll learn about this inner journey, spiritual journey, and the role of helping others through this journey as well today, and maybe also get into something about the early spread of mindfulness to the west might be in there as well. So Lynn, thanks for taking the time to sit down and talk with us about your own personal story and learning a bit about Burma in the process as well.
Lynne Bousfield 03:30
Thanks very much for the invitation.
Host 03:33
So there's a lot to your story to get into, and I know that there's a start of it and your time in Bodh Gaya and your relation that you developed with some of the great Burmese meditation teachers, and bringing that to Australia and to other places around the world. Let's get to the early part of your story. If you could tell us a bit about your origins and family life and what set you on that spiritual life, and get into that.
Lynne Bousfield 04:02
Okay, yeah, so, I grew up in Perth in Western Australia, but, well, Perth is the capital. It's a fairly small town, as far as cities go, and it's probably fair to say, like a lot of young people, I wasn't particularly happy as a probably as a teenager, and a lot of bullying at school, that kind of thing. And I was at my first year of university, and my brother, who's a couple of years older, had been away traveling in Southeast Asia, and he sent me a postcard from Thailand, and the postcard had a picture of stupas on it, and I'd never seen anything like. Like that. You know, the traditional tie covered in gold, or at least looked like gold to me. And so I was in the Library at the University of Western Australia, and somehow I went looking for what this postcard was about. I don't remember what my brother might have written on the card, or anything else other than that picture. And unfortunately, I also don't remember the book that I eventually landed on, but I read something, and I remember having the thought, it's still very distinct, that if you learn to meditate, everything will be okay. And so I quit University, much to my father's dismay, being the last child and the first one to go to university, I got a job for six months with in the public service. And surprisingly, after six months, I thought I had enough money to leave, and I left thinking I'd be away for maybe three months and I was going to Southeast Asia as a fairly typical thing for Australians to do to start our sort of exit from Australia in Southeast Asia, because it was close. And I just used Southeast Asia as a bit of a stepping stone, trying to find meditation. And I went to Jakarta first, and then down to Bali, where I met a man who was into actually white magic, not black magic. And he taught me what I now can see was a concentration practice. And then I headed up to Java, and people were talking about a woman in Java who was teaching meditation, which was a Muslim practice that we did standing. And so I tried that. And then I got to Thailand, and I walked into quite a few watts, but they seemed very impenetrable to me at the time, sort of inaccessible, inaccessible. Went to Laos and similar experience with the monks and the monasteries, and then went to Burma. And they, of course, were the days where you had a very short visa in Burma. I think it was 10 days. It might have been a week, I don't really recall. And at that point, I was traveling with another Australian woman, and so we did a, you know, quick tour of Burma in that time. And the main thing that stood out was arriving in Mandalay from the train. We got off the train and had no idea to go. I mean, this is, you know, like 1975 so there's no mobile phones and social media. And you know, internet to find your way around, it's just word of mouth and and there was a Burmese man came up to us, and he said, Please come and stay at my house. And you know, we had a few experiences already in Southeast Asia that you would normally sort of shy away from something like that. But in Burma, there were no hotels. I found out from Burmese friends later on that Burmese people didn't stay in hotels. They stayed with friends, the idea of hotels certainly, certainly at that point, was just not something that particularly registered. And so the I probably relied on my friend, who was a few years older, and and she said, Well, you know, let's do it. So we went to his house, and he put us up, and he took us over the next three days to what he thought were all the important things to see in Mandalay. And, you know, kind of, it was just sort of sense of, this is really unusual from my from my perspective, from his side, it just seemed really normal. And he just said, You Western people, you have a very short time and and if someone doesn't help you, you know, find the places to. Go too quickly, you'll spend all your time trying to find how to you know what, what there is to see and how to get there, and because no one, there weren't that many people who spoke English. So it was a very sort of generous and and gracious thing for him to do, and he apparently did it on a regular basis. He just waited at the train station and someone got off and looked like they didn't know where to go. He would offer accommodation and then take them around to look at what he thought were the important things to see. It's interesting. That's not the only thing that stood out from that 10 days, when I think about it at another place, I'm just trying to think of where it was at the moment, I think after Mandalay, we were staying somewhere, and a group of young people came up to us. They would have been probably early to mid 20s, maybe a couple of women and a man, and they started talking to us in very kind of hushed voices about the situation in Burma, which I had, you know, I was 18, I had really very naive about what was going on in the world. I didn't really understand what was going on in Burma, but that sort of stood sort of in contrast to the Mandalay experience. There was this sense of, there are, there's something sort of subterranean going on here that's dark and we want to get out. So, yeah, I mean, after that, I I went to India, and the first trip to India ended up in Dharamsala, but once again, I didn't really connect with the tradition, and then ran out of money, got really sick, and the plan had been to go to Japan to teach English, but didn't have enough money for the flight, so ended up in Iran. So this was, this was in the days of the Shah and I didn't manage to get a job teaching English, because no one would believe I had a degree, because I actually didn't have one too young. So I got a job as a typist and stayed my friend and I, we stayed in a share house with an English guy and an American guy. And I, I was talking to the English guy, and he said he'd been in India, and he heard about a retreat, and he was in Iran getting money to go back to do a retreat in this place called Bodh Gaya with a teacher called menindra. And he gave me the dates, and he just said, Oh, this is, this is a bit how you do the practice. It's, it's, you know, you have to pay attention to your breathing and and that then set me on the path to getting back to India. And I arrived in India five days into that retreat. It had already started. I remember going and meeting Myanmar. He was staying at the Chinese temple at the time, and I arrived and said I'd heard about meditation and I wanted to learn to meditate. And he was his usual buoyant, welcoming, accepting self, and which I've discovered was part of his personality. Later on, they sort of jumped up and said, Oh, you're in luck. There's a there's a retreat that's it's already underway, but you can still join as you just go down the road. It's at the bila Dham Sala, which is like a pilgrims rest house. And so I wandered off to find this place. Actually, I tell this story sometimes when I'm teaching, because I found the bila Dham Sala, and I looked through the so it was like a compound, and with a with wall, a wall around it, and sort of a gate at the front, and the gate was open, and I looked in and saw a sort of garden very, sort of, very clipped. Kind of hedges and pathways, and I saw three people. There was a little stupa in the garden which had steps up the front, and there was someone walking very slowly up the steps, and someone else was walking very slowly along one of the paths and on a distant wall, it's very common in India. There are often places bathing places. There are like just pipes coming out of the wall. There was someone who had just finished bathing wearing Aung like a sarong, but he had his back to me, and he had a towel, and he was very, very slowly moving the towel backwards and forwards to dry his back. And all three were wearing white, which, again, isn't that uncommon in India. But I looked in and saw this scene, and I just thought, this can't be the place. This looks like a mental hospital, but it was the place. And pretty soon I was in there, not necessarily wearing white, but moving around very slowly. And that was my first retreat, only five days. But I guess I'd have to say it changed my life. There was a Bangladeshi monk there. His name was rastrapal. He was a teacher, student of menindras. He was, you know, conducting the retreat, so to speak. But meningrae would come in on a regular basis and talk to people if they had any questions about their practice. I was given very little instruction by rostral pal. Very simple instruction about observing the breath and anything else that might arise. And then he said, Just watch what other people do. So mostly it was Indian people on the retreat. There were, I think there were about four foreigners, and it, it was incredibly difficult. I remember feeling like so much physical pain. I felt like I'd been run over by a truck. But, yeah, the five days were kind of groundbreaking, really. And it just, I suppose it just felt like this is what I'd been looking for, not really even understanding, I don't think why it just, it just must have made sense to me at the time that that this was something authentic and what I needed to do, what I'd been looking for, for how long had it taken me to get there? That's the other thing about the trip in Burma. I was on the back of a bullock cart in November in that year when I heard that the Whitlam government had been dismissed, which was also fairly a fairly shattering piece of information. But So yeah, it had taken me just over a year, probably 15 months from when I'd left Australia and gone traveling through all of these places, looking for practice and and getting back to Bodh Gaya, which is where I then stayed for about another year and a half, largely in Bodh Gaya doing practice.
Host 19:31
Hmm, that's quite a story. It's lovely to hear that synopsis, and it's it's just so curious to think about having this interest in meditation, especially you hear this in 2024, and many young people listening in, where there's just mindfulness and Buddh sources up the wazoo these days. And at that time, being an 18 year old from Australia, and knowing that you wanted to practice meditation, but not not. Necessarily knowing the next step, rather than just getting a flight to to Indonesia, it sounds like first and experiencing perhaps some Muslim or Hindu and or perhaps even just the magical types of teachers that you come across, and just wandering around looking at that time. Of course, that's how things were, until very, very recently in human history, just wandering around through happen, chance or conditions, being right past karma coming to fruition, how everyone wants to characterize that, and wandering here and there, talking to this and that person and hoping to land in a in a set of conditions, with a teacher, with a spiritual community, where you have access to something that it's is probably pretty nebulous even what it is you're looking for, because there, again, there aren't those resources. And going on that exploration through these regions and looking for something that vaguely matches this idea in your mind of what you're seeking out.
Lynne Bousfield 21:10
I think it was interesting, almost the even the journey to find the practice. I have to say that, you know, I probably nearly died three times before to Bodh Gaya. One was due to the dysentery that we both picked up, probably from Nepal and but the other two times were, you know, the threats of going through countries like that at that time, probably even, of course, at these times and again, being a young white woman who didn't have a clue, even though I Never, sort of dressed in a way that was, you know, revealing of anything. There was always, you know, long, very ankle length skirts and long sleeve tops and but just by virtue of the fact that you, you you're white, and you're not accompanied by a man we, we sort of just escaped with our lives from an incident in Laos where we were basically hunted and Going across Iran and getting to Tehran. There were a couple of experiences in Tehran again where we were just lucky to escape. So, you know, you sort of, it's almost like the out in the world, experience of you just keep going with these incidents, because something, there is something that you're that is leading you, which is, at this point, just an idea, there's probably a little bit akin to a meditation practice where you know, you start and like it doesn't, it doesn't seem like it's certainly an insight practice. It's like sometimes it feels when people start an insight practice, like it's even worse than what they thought it was going to offer. You know, them, you know, or allow them to escape from in their daily lives. So I think it's, it's, it's interesting in that regard, of, you know, there's got to be a lot of determination, I think not necessarily recognize that as as a young person, but something is is difficult, and there's some idea, as you say, that there's something there could be something else. You have no idea what it is. Even when you come across aspects of it, there's part of you that registers, this is not it. And you keep going until there's this part of you that goes, This is it. You still don't know what it is, but something sort of rings true. So and I Yeah, the for younger people these days, I think it's it could take the same amount of time and the same amount of difficulty because there's so much they have to wait, just like again. Where do you start? It almost seems easier to get a plane ticket.
Host 24:52
I mean, you have one course meditation students doing Instagram reels, educating others on. What this whole silent meditation retreat is, they've sat one course, and they're suddenly making a name for themselves, trying to tell other people how to get through it. So it's a very different time.
Lynne Bousfield 25:10
Yeah, very different. And, you know, I think, as I said, all of those things that people might try before they discover if it's meant for them, a practice like this one is kind of equivalent, you know. But yeah, there was no, there was no as far as I could tell, there was no meditation that I could have no Buddhist meditation. There certainly wasn't any in Perth, and I don't think prakanti Paulo, who was, think it was English, originally pra Kanti Paulo, maybe Australian, but he trained in Thai Forest Tradition. He came back and set up in with a with a nun.
Host 25:56
I came up in, right, yeah. Robert hover student, yeah.
Lynne Bousfield 25:59
They set up in in a in a center in Weisman ferry, bit out of, you know, few hours north of Sydney, they were that was happening when I got back. So I was away the first time for two and a half years. And when I got back, I discovered that they were there, but I don't think they were there when I left.
Host 26:31
So, yeah, it was certainly a time where I've done, I've spoken to a number of people who are, I would say, the generation before me, and I was of a generation where it was more similar to that one than the one that came after. It with the opportunities of the internet, but in in so many of these interviews, it's a chance encounter, a book left in a hotel room, a something they heard from some other traveler that stuck in their mind. And you know, for me, it was what was the year, I think it was the year 2000 and working in an office in Japan, in Tokyo, and also wanting to find this path that I had, I think there were a few more resources available for me to in the form of books, at least, if not websites at that time, or Social media, and just a co worker telling another co worker that happened to stop in the office about a meditation that he had done, and just hearing it, I was like, I think this is the thing I've been waiting for. And it ended up being the goenkankors and at that, you know, these days, it's almost impossible to have an interest in this direction and not hear about, say, the Goenka, the passion, of course, is just as one example. At that time, it felt like I had found a pot of gold. It felt like I, I am so lucky to be at the right time and place where I heard about this thing that I would never have heard about otherwise. It just felt like this, this, this incredible luck that I had, that I had I had been in a place where I'd heard about this. And indeed, that's really until things change with the internet, and it spread to the extent it has had now that whether it was Goenka ba Pasha na munindra, Mahasi Aung San, whatever these traditions were, that was kind of the feeling from, I don't know, 1960 to 2000 or so. Where you you you heard that name, got that book, heard that recommendation. Someone told you about that course, starting around the corner. And for those that were seeking, it was this, even before going, it was like, I think this is what I was waiting for. Gosh, I hope it is.
Lynne Bousfield 28:40
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very they're very interesting processes. I think that that bring us to these places and and, but also keep us there. Because I guess there's a lot of lot of points along the way where you could encounter something that is life saving in the way that Vipassana practices, and just kind of slide off, you know, not, you know, not realize what you've got. So I think it's really fortunate that when you do find it and and it's it has a strong enough impact, and there's a strong enough engagement with you, because it's also and I was speaking to a friend about this recently, those days. I mean, it was hard, physically, really, physically hard doing retreats. I remember the retreat at Bilad Sala. I mean, I've never, sort of, I. A bit more similar to a cross legged position. Not that it's cross legged these days, but I'd never been able to sit cross legged, and here I was sitting on a on a concrete ground. They had like a tarpaulin on the ground or something, and a tarpaulin over the top, the heat didn't really bother me, but all these, you know, Indian people just, you know, plopped down on the ground as if it was, you know, an everyday thing, which it was an everyday thing. And I it was just in agony. I was trying to sit on my sleeping bag. And, you know, then I'd go into the my my room. It was like a shared room with some other Indian women, and they'd just be lying down on a wooden bed with a straw mat on it. And I'm like, you know, wooden bed with a straw I had a bit of that already from traveling, but it was physically it was it was pretty sparse. And of course, eventually, when I got to the Mahasi center, when it when Burma opened in 1980 very similar conditions from living in I was a bit smarter by then, so I had a I had some kind of foam, you know, compressed cell mat or something. But the difficulty with Burma then was the food for me, at least so and really demanding schedules kind of tell my students sometimes of the Mahasi schedule, which is still burned into my brain. You know, so much practice of it. There's not too many people who would follow that schedule these days from the west.
Host 31:59
I don't think I want to get to that Burma, part of it, at least the the first part. Now, because it's very interesting that you went there as a as a seeker, something of a, of a naive seeker at that time, not really in kind of your tour of the region, and ended up there. And it's interesting for several reasons. I mean, one is that you're there in 1975 that's quite a difficult time for for foreigners to come. It's a year after uthans funeral, which sparked these protests, and I imagine it couldn't have gotten a visa for much more than a week. And but also, you know, so many of the Western practitioners turn teachers. Now that I've spoken to on this platform, Burma was kind of their their second or third stop, in the sense of being established before they went, you know, whether through Goenka, munindra, Mahasi, whoever it was, finding some either directly with that teacher, with some disciple, establishing oneself a little bit in that practice, only a little bit, because there's not a lot of years We're talking about here, and then learning, oh, well, my my teacher is in Burma, or there are greater opportunities in Burma, or you can ordain in Burma over here and do this, and speaking to people who then said, Oh, okay, well, I want to go try that. So they're arriving in Burma with some very slight lay of the land and understanding and in what they're really seeking. But it sounds like your visit was more happen chance, more of just kind of like going to Bali, Jakarta, Bangkok, Kolkata, anywhere else, and just kind of getting off a plane and trying to figure out what was in front of you.
Lynne Bousfield 33:32
Yeah, and I don't think whatever I read necessarily identified anything as Buddhist. And maybe even from my brother's postcard, I didn't have a sense of Buddhist, right? I don't think I really had an idea of Buddhist or Buddhism. It was meditation, which is probably why, you know, in Java, I just went and tried the the meditation practice with the the Ibu. Ibu is a Bahasa Indonesia word that means mother. So all the women are called Ibu. So she was teaching this practice, which was perfectly fine practice, but once again, it didn't click. So yeah, I don't think I I knew I was looking for meditation. I didn't really know what meditation was, but each thing I tried, I realized this. This isn't it, somehow, it's Interestingly though, including that were that also included going to the Tibetan library in in Dan Sala and but the, I think can't remember how long I was there. It might have been a month or so. So, and they were like, classes. So it was, it was like, you know, going to school, and people were taking notes and and again, that to me, this wasn't meditation, so that's why that didn't stick, even though it was, you know, Tibetan Buddhism, I didn't really register what that was, either. So yeah, and having the English guy in Iran just tell me very briefly about the meditation practice. We must have got talking about meditation, and he must have been interested as well. And he didn't tell me very much, but somehow, at that point, it was like, that's the place that I got to go to, and that was back to Bogd before you know, a lot of practice in India, I went back to I came back to Australia because I'd run out of money. And stayed in Australia for a year working, and then went back again to India than to Bodh Gaya, largely. And I think it was at the end of that time that Burma opened. So I think I went from, I'm pretty sure I went straight from India to Burma for like a three month retreat, which would have been end of 1980 so that was the first time, I guess I well, I knew I was heading for Bodh Gaya to meet menindra. Menindra, of course, having done a lot of practice in Burma, and then I knew I was going to the Mahasi center when I went to Burma the second.
Host 37:05
It’s also interesting with munindra that you you landed with him. That's not so uncommon for the time. So many young spiritual seekers from the West were ended up being guided towards him and his embrace and his teaching as well as his guidance. But I as you were, as you told your story, and you mentioned coming to meet my ninja, and he told you, yes, there's a course over here, and he's guiding you towards that course. I'm kind of waiting to hear if that's going to be a 10 day silent retreat by an Indian businessman or slow walking and, you know, in the Mahasi style. And it almost, I almost get this feeling it was one of those moments of like you could turn left or right, and if you would come a week earlier, maybe you would have turned left, and week later you turn right, because he was, you know, my ninja was, was, was so open in terms of all these traditions and encouraging all this practice. And it, it seems also a bit of serendipity, or maybe maybe something more that, that that your arrival coincided with him leading you towards the towards the Mahasi retreat, which was, which ended up being so transformative.
Lynne Bousfield 38:10
I mean, that was the one that was running at the exactly as you say. Maybe if Goenka had been, I mean, Goenka came to town, yeah, later, and I did sit a retreat with Goenka, because everyone said what a remarkable teacher he was, yeah, but I guess I was still, you know, I still didn't have this difference in technique thing. Figured out. I just, I think I heard Vipassana, and so I've got, I got onto Mr. Goenka retreat, and discovered that it was a different practice. Yeah, no, I think I prefer Mahasi.
Host 38:58
Well, you know, I was talking to Graham white about this, and I really like how he put it, because he also vacillated with Mahasi and Goenka, and asking him about about that, about his own path, he had this thing that always resonated in my mind after hearing it, of like there's something about your first practice that has this hold on you like Nothing else and and and that's why I mentioned that serendipity of, yes, you did like Graham, you did Mahasi and Goenka. You did both of them, but in both your cases, you did Mahasi first. And I think maybe something similar. And have also spoken to some, I can think of some people in mind from that time who did Goenka first and then did Mahasi and then just helped us pull back to Goenka. So you know the fact that there happened to be a Mahasi course running when you ran into menin Joah has led you into that? Yeah,
Lynne Bousfield 39:49
yeah. Well, given my difficulty with sitting on the floor, I think Mahasi was the Mahasi technique was more desired for me. Uh, huh. I think if I'd ended up in Japan, I probably would have been pulled to Zen, but I guess I over time, I would have learned how to sit that way, you know, if I had to do it repeatedly. But it was something about the Mahasi practice that was seemed kind of balanced and forgiving, and it just seemed very practical. It's just, well, I didn't know it at the time, but as I've practiced more, it just such a practical practice to me. It it's so it's just applicable everywhere, which I suppose is another reason why it's the basis for a lot of you know, what's been, you know, being used under the heading of mindfulness these days in the West.
Host 40:50
Can you give an example of what you mean about how you find the Mahasi technique in particular, so practical and in daily situations of life?
Lynne Bousfield 40:59
Yeah, well, I guess it's because the the practice allows the development of mindfulness on whatever is the distinct object. So it doesn't have to be the breathing or the walking. You know, if it's a mental state or or a feeling, then those experiences in everyday life can be investigated, observed and investigated with mindfulness. So even from a sense of not in a formal way, but in an informal way. For someone who's got experience in their practice, they can learn to be observing the condition of their mind, perhaps while they're in a meeting or dealing with something distressing. So it to me, it's easy for it to move out of the formal practice of meditation to the everyday to an everyday application. And I think a really good example of that as well, which I probably didn't realize at the time, but it of course, as I practiced more and developed in myself more, staying a long time in India, I also met quite a Few of menindra students, and also, at the time Antioch University, Robert Pryor, actually, he brought students to Bodh Gaya for, I think it was comparative religious studies kind of program. And the in on the first course, I kind of helped with the setup of a couple of, you know, the teachers, as well as kind of looking after, helping to look after the students, because they were all well, they were probably, they might have been older than me by a year or two, but they were landing, you know, in India, in Bihar, you know, Bihar state, one of the poorest states of India, straight out of, out of a, you know, America. And was bound to be, you know, quite a shock. So, one of the teachers that was a woman. Her name was Krishna. She was a Barua like meningra, and her father in law had been a monk, and he taught, I think he, he was the one who initially taught her to meditate. Now he may have been a student of menindras. I'm not sure of that connection, but because Krishna was married and had children, she wasn't available, or maybe even allowed, given permission to do meditation retreats. So she she described to me how she turned her day into practice by being mindful of everything that she did, you know, from preparing the meals to cleaning to going to the market, like everything she turned into almost a retreat. She was a pretty astonishing woman, and clearly a well established practitioner. So she. I think it's always sort of to me as a great example of how we can practice, yeah, with everything everywhere, that's so important.
Host 45:09
Yeah, I think that what I'm probably jumping ahead here. But I, as I look at mindfulness today, I kind of see, at least has it spread in the West, I kind of see the dangers of two polarities, one being this kind of craving and crutch really, of ideal retreat conditions, you know, and kind of an inability to practice outside of these, these ideal silent retreats on one hand and then on the other hand, a real kind of watered down, just lukewarm mindfulness that is, is is integrated into anything from corporate retreats to, you know, to wine tasting, right, right, whatever, without, without any Sheila, without Any of that and, you know, and so it's and so with one or the other, you're missing out on so much. And like, where are you able to have this, this pure distillation of what this mindfulness is, but to bring it anywhere and to not have to really rely on and be dependent upon certain external conditions as one's only means to practice.
Lynne Bousfield 46:27
Yeah, I think, you know, I think the Insight journey is a journey, you know, through, through the storm of mind. And I think the in a sense, the sometimes, the the journey through the storm of life is the journey that you do to get to the to the journey through the storm of the mind. So as our conditions become more and more comfortable, I think it tends to train people to try to avoid the discomforts of life this, you know, that, rather than investigate them, and I mean, that's not necessarily a criticism or a judgment. I think if we can, you know, alleviate sort of pain or or or suffering through other means. Then, you know, we should make sort of intelligent decisions about the you know what we've got at our disposal, at our disposal. But all too often it, it just goes to the, you know, what's easy as opposed because it's available, rather than, you know, what may be more intelligent and more beneficial. There's a we play the short game. Yeah, no one's, no one's playing the long game. And the culture trains us, you know, to play the short game. It's and the game's getting shorter and shorter. Like, what can you achieve? You know, your key performance indicators, your goals. You know, even in therapy, your treatment goals. And they've got to be smart goals. They've got to be measurable. It's just like everything is, you know, sort of headed towards Quick, quick and measurable, as opposed to wide and deep. And I think if we, if we're not careful, we train the whole system to go, you know, quick and measurable, and we lose the capacity to go wide and deep.
Host 48:49
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, meditation is reduced to a mind hack, you know, just a quick fix to how to how to get a shortcut. You know, the definition of hack is has a connotation of wanting to get a shortcut from here to there, something you can, you can, you can do faster than the normal process. And mindfulness does kind of happen at its own time.
Lynne Bousfield 49:15
Yeah. So like, why would I put myself through some excruciating conditions of, you know, alternating sitting and walking practice. I mean, the conditions don't have to be excruciating, yeah. This is the, this is the other interesting thing. It's a balance of those, those conditions. And when I look at my own practice, you know, the first year I went to the Mahasi center, again, there was a handful of foreigners there. And, you know, 500 monks and nuns and lay people, Burmese, and it was pretty, I mean, if I, if I'd felt like walking into the bila danzala was like, you know, hang on. Looks like some kind of mental health, you know, facility. When I walked into the Mahasi center, it felt like, you know, it was this sort of concentration, kind of palpable, kind of concentration, sort of generator or but I think I'd been there about three weeks struggling, and it was mahasis birthday. So they have a big they have a big celebration, apparently, and they were concerned that the foreigners would find that too disruptive of their meditation practice. So they decided that the foreigners should get trucked out to a branch monastery, and so we're away, I think, for about a week at this small, little monastery where we slept, sort of, we practiced and slept in the in the sort of shrine room, and a couple of nuns cooked for us. And it was in the forest, you know, whereas the Mahasi center is huge, yeah, downtown, yeah downtown, lots of buildings and concrete and and, you know, this place was like this little place, you know, out in the bush to use Australian vernacular, and, and, and the food, the food was, well, I would probably say, Now, more conducive to my tastes, and at the Mahasi center, and once again, it felt like my, the my practice, I guess I relaxed so my, my, my practice, felt like it was, you know, easier and more more accessible. And I didn't want to leave there. I didn't want to leave and go back to the Marcy center, but I had to so also when, at one time in India, I went up into the foothills of the Himalayas, just trying to think of the name of the town. Now it's gone out of Dalhousie. It was a place quite a few people used to go and do practice. Quite a few goenkawalas used to go to get to escape from the heat of the plains as well, sort of old sort of hill station. So I went up to rent a house for a period of three months to escape the heat of the plains. And and I found this house sort of, sort of, I guess, like a British kind of colonial or colonial sort of residence with a little wing off it, which had a, you know, like a bedroom and a kitchen and a sitting area and and out the front of it was an apple orchard. And if you walk to the edge of the apple orchard, you had about a 270 degree view of snow covered mountains. And it once again, my practice. Once I settled in, just felt like despite the difficulty of practice, it still felt like it had ease. And I think the these experiences probably also fed into, you know, the way, the, you know, the style of of the retreats that I, I've been teaching for a while in Bali, you know, I think it's, it's really, really important to have environmentally suitable conditions as well, not I mean, a good teacher is critical, but having other supportive conditions, it can also make a really big difference.
Host 54:22
Yeah, yeah. So talking about that experience with Mahasi. And first, that first course that munindra guided you to in India, and then from there, going back to Burma, you'd already been there, not as a meditator, but going to spend three months there. I'm sure that was a pivotal set of years in your life. And I wonder if you can describe the nature of the Mahasi courses you were doing in India, who the teachers were at the time. And then, as you've talked a little bit about your experience walking into the Mahasi center, but if you could. Expand on just the difference of what it was like to find yourself in Burma at the Mahasi center, having principal teachers that are now commanding and giving instructions and overseeing, and what kind of difference that was as you went along the spiritual journey.
Lynne Bousfield 55:17
I think there's this similarities and there's differences. Certainly that first retreat, there was very little guidance. But the instructors instruction I got was, in fact, you know, in a sense, all I needed. It was a very simple instruction from from rostrapal At the start of the retreat. There weren't interviews. And again, I was only there for five days, but as I said, miningrad would come in, and I remember talking to him one day. Maybe I was asked if I wanted to see him, and maybe I thought I was supposed to, and so I did, but I also remember I didn't have a clue what he was talking about, so it was like, I just really didn't understand the language, not, I mean, it was English, but I didn't understand the language of practice, because, I guess I didn't have words for what I was experiencing. And when I went to Burma, we listened to a tape, initially, which I think was Alan Clements had read the tape translated into English, not by Alan, but by, I can't remember by whom. So we listened to, I think it was about a half hour, 45 minute tape recording of the meditation instructions, which between that first retreat and the Mahasi center, Myanmar had given us access to some also some recordings by Joseph. Joseph Goldstein, yeah, and in that time before I went to Burma, not only did goenkaji come to Bodh Gaya, but Christopher titmus came, and I sat a retreat with him. And Jack and Joseph came, and I sat a retreat with them. So by the time I got to Burma, I probably had more understanding, right of you know what I was meant to be doing. There were, but mostly unless they were Western led retreats, of which I, you know, I did maybe two or three over that time, there were no talks. The whole Dharma talk. Thing was happening, of course, for in Burma, for the Burmese, but there was nothing in English for the foreigners. So there was a, like a five minute interview every two days that was through a translator and um, yeah, I remember that was a struggle. I remember being befriended by a Burmese woman who was practicing at the Mahasi Center at that time. And she spoke some English, she'd been to Australia, I think it was under a particular like some sort of, you know, plan Australian government may have had with some other countries to help with the education, you know, of essential kind of workers. And she'd had nursing training in Australia, so she had a bit of English. And every morning, once she, sort of, you know, befriended me, on the way to breakfast, I would stop at her room, and she would ask me about my meditation practice. So I don't remember much about that exchange in terms of, you know, learning about the actual practice, and probably the same from the interviews, because the side doors never really said very much. Mostly, what you would get was good. That was about it. Yeah, you know, I. Um, so I think the exchange with the Burmese woman was more an exchange of feeling cared for, and, you know, sort of cared for in the concrete environment of the meditation center or are connected with perhaps, that someone was having a sort of, yeah, I can't think of a better word Other than connection or engagement or and she'd, I think, been asked by the nugget Ha, perhaps as well, to keep an eye on the foreign meditators to sort of, because they realized, you know, that it was difficult for us. And once again, I was still pretty young at that point, so I probably got sort of, you know, marked out, as you know, this young woman who perhaps better keep an eye on, yeah. Well, I found, I found that very supportive. So yeah, there's different, I guess, is a whole bunch of different things that support us to do the practice. And it's not necessarily a talk, a Dharma talk, or an instruction.
Host 1:01:41
Right? And that's that also gets into some of the real fodder and richness that we go into with some of these discussions. For people who've spent time in Burma, is that often practitioners who go to Burma as lay yogis or ordain as monastics may think they're going for a technique or a teacher, or again, these kind of perfect, idealized practice environments. And certainly those things are a big draw, but many of them end up finding that it's the richness of the culture of the people of the Buddhist values that are being manifested in ways that holistically, that you don't see in our communities that have as great, if not greater, of an impact on the spiritual development as the intensive courses that one is actually undertaking. And so in your case, as you, as you went back there in 1980 have it now as a practitioner, knowing what you're doing and being in a a Buddhist culture, be it monastic or forest or or perhaps with relationships, or if you went off monastery land at times and met Burmese people in society, but in what ways beyond the particular teaching or technique or practice periods, in what ways was your proximity to Burmese Buddhist culture and friends and community? In what ways did that start to shape and influence you?
Lynne Bousfield 1:03:09
Well, you know, in those early days of going to Burma when it first opened, you didn't really have a chance to go anywhere else. You got picked up from the airport, then you went to the center, and then from the center you went back to the airport, basically, yeah, so I think, you know, it was those, because the teachers were men, and they probably didn't really have that much impact on me at the time, but I realized, you know, as I'm, you know, I guess I realized, as I got older, the importance of the women who weren't in those teaching roles, but who you know like this. This woman do la min, her name was who'd actually, you know, told me later, in a later Later visit to the center that her first time to the Mahasi center was when she was diagnosed with throat cancer. I don't know her first time was when she had an end to a relationship and she was really unhappy, so she went to the Mahasi center and practiced, and she said, you know, she got through her unhappiness the second time, which was the time when I was first there, in 1980 and I didn't know this, but because she didn't tell me until a subsequent visit, she had throat cancer, And being a nurse, she had sort of medical colleagues, and they'd, all, you know, entreated her to, you know, have surgery or to to have chemotherapy or and they weren't giving her very good odds, apparently, with those treatments was like a 50. 50 success, sort of possibility. And she just said, you know, I think I'll go and meditate, because it helped me last time she she did intensive practice, I think, for about nine months. And the tumor in her throat disappeared. Oh, wow. And she, there's a little booklet. Someone did an interview with her and published it, and it's published in English. I think it's, it was available in Burma, she went back and saw her medical colleagues just to get because she had the she had an experience where she she wasn't thinking, Oh, my, cancer's gone. She was just noting what was going on and and after the retreat, she went and saw her colleagues, and they did some tests, and they were just astonished that, wow, there was no sign of a tumor anymore. I suspect she's she's about 20 years older than me, so I suspect she's probably still alive. She was the last time I was in Burma. So I guess it was her, it was the nuns when we went sort of off campus that time, when it was mahasis birthday, just their, their care, and it was the same when I you see upandida became I think when Mahasi died, I think they nominated four side doors to Run the Mahasi center, sort of as a group, and three of them died very quickly, and upandida was the youngest, and so he then became the abbot um, and he, I feel Like I developed a good relationship with with side or Pandita. He was a lot of people found him very fierce, but I always found him very kind. And, you know, he had a really good sense of humor as well. And then he left the Mahasi Center, which was a pretty sad day for everyone when he left. And I was I was there that year, and when I next was thinking to go back to Burma, I wasn't sure. You know, where was I going to go? Was I got gonna go to the Mahasi center, or was I gonna go to side or new center? I think he just had the city center at that point, which was quite small. And then I was told about Sayadaw u kundula, so I decided to go to Sayadaw Ula. And I think saya Udal was very, very sweet. Very, very knowledgeable and an exceptional teacher. And it was, it was the first time I felt like I had the chance to sit down with a teacher of that caliber and kind of go through even past practice and past practice experience, and They were happy to spend the time doing that. So again, I think it's those instances. Even though most of my time in Burma, you know, certainly in those earlier years, was in meditation centers. It was the care of the people, right? Do?
Host 1:09:42
Right? And as you were going and spending more time there, you reference some you really evocative imagery of your seven, your 1975 visit of painting a picture of the generosity, the curiosity, the kindness and the self. Softness, and yet the underlying fear and terror and darkness that was always just around the corner, and you know, just in devastatingly so continues to this day, which is what we hope the current, current situation will be resolved to give that freedom and safety they so deserve. But as you came to spend more and more time on repeated trips to Burma, associating with teachers, nuns, fellow practitioners. How did you come to understand the kind of role of the political situation, the dictatorship, the lack of freedoms, with the ultimate freedom of this spiritual practice. And I don't know if there are anecdotes that might illustrate this, or general overviews of a picture you can paint as someone who would spend extended time there and understand that at least at the beginning, it was more at centers than in society. And there's language difference, and Burmese are are often careful not to share their burdens or their problems by talking about things. And then there's their own lack of safety. But I'm sure to some extent there, there the amount of time you spent, there must have been more examples that you gleaned and feelings you had of this kind of relationship and the strain that that Burmese were living under, while also paradoxically pursuing this gift of spiritual freedom, which was also flourishing in their Country.
Lynne Bousfield 1:11:33
Yeah, well, I think in the earlier years I uh, probably not so much the first trip, but as I made more visits there, you just learnt that you had to be careful. You had to be careful, particularly, you know, in taxis, not to engage in any conversation around, you know, politics. You know, I had an experience with one of my Burmese friends once when I was on the phone to him and someone had told me about some incident with Sayadaw Pandita and and I can remember saying something to my friend around I've just heard this. And you know, could this happen? Is this, you know what? You know, this cut. This couldn't happen. Could it? This is not written. And the tone of his voice completely changed, and it was just and I when that happened, I realized my mistake, and I just shifted off, off the topic. And so there was, I guess there was, there was just an understanding that you didn't engage with people about those, those things. Certainly, maybe it almost at any time until the situation started to become a little maybe what appeared to be a lot more open when the NLD and Aung San Suu Kyi were in power, and it was a marked difference that people actually started to speak openly, yeah, about the political situation. And it was, it was quite marked. It sort of, you know, you you were taken aback that, you know, in in earshot of other people, the person that you were talking to was talking about, you know, the government and the situation that they were in. But up until that point, there was always the sense that you didn't know who was listening, yeah, and so you just didn't talk about it.
Host 1:14:46
Right? That's definitely a heaviness of of those years, and that juxtaposition and learning how to navigate in that environment, really deferring to those people that are that are on the ground and, know, have a. A more sharpened radar from those years of living in those conditions and taking the lead from them. And as you're there, pursuing Mahasi meditation, studying under initially Mahasi Sayadaw and Sayadaw, Pandita, and then others that would come along. Eventually, at some part of your story, you transition from being a practitioner to also a teacher, or setting up and establishing retreats in Australia, perhaps first, to bring in other other teachers that are coming to lead them, and then taking that role yourself. So can you talk talk about that transition to how it developed that you then played a role in facilitating the sharing and dissemination of these Mahasi style teachings in Australia and perhaps other places as well.
Lynne Bousfield 1:15:55
Yeah, I guess I I guess that started primarily with Graham. And I remember at some point Graham saying something about, you know, it was a it was difficult that there weren't more people around that you could talk to about the Dharma. And you know, he, I think, had met and sort of established some degree of of a relationship with Joseph in the early days in India, right? And I guess I just said, Well, why don't we invite them? Yeah, to teach. And so he I think that's how the first retreat came about, and which was held somewhere in the north coast, in New South Wales.
Host 1:17:04
When was that?
Lynne Bousfield 1:17:06
It must have been around about 983, or 84 somewhere back then. I'm not very good with dates, and I think we had Joseph out a couple of times, maybe we Sharon as well. But it's like, you know, it's a it's a long trip. And I guess also at that time, things were getting busier and busier for them. And it then seemed like, you know, we couldn't actually get them to come so, it seemed like we ought to invite one of the sidewalks. So I think I'd been back again to Burma for a longer retreat. By that point, so we wrote to the nugeha, and I think we nominated a side, or who might have spoken English, who was in Penang, that might have been sayaw Tun Dara, but we got what we got back from the Mahasi center was given that this was the first trip to Australia. Of you know, for a Mahasi teacher, it should be Sayadaw upandida. So Sayadaw, Sayadaw came out with quite an entourage, and we rented a venue, but an hour and a half out of Sydney, in the southern highlands of a former girl girls convent, sort of school convent. And I think that first retreat was a one month retreat. We had a lot of people. We had quite a few of the American teachers come in for that retreat as well. So we, we did a few of those with Sayadaw, upandida, he, you know, I guess, helped spur us on. We had, a property that was, we were looking for land, but it was, it was difficult to find something. And we had this idea of, you know, building a center. And then one of the people involved in the group had bought a couple of property on a couple of acres, and basically said, Well, why don't we turn this place into a center? And was a sort of complicated. Handover, I think they kept part of it, and eventually we were able to give them. The association was able to give them some money for it, but we built a small center there, and sayaw upandida taught at that center as well. And then we had sayaw kundula Come out. We had bante sativa, who is a Chinese Malaysian teacher, who also has been a student of Sayadaw panditas. I think he was at the Mahasi center in those early days for some time as well. He's been in Italy for a long time, but I believe he's now headed that to Malaysia. Yeah, we, I guess we invited a sort of whole, you know, array of of different, you know, teachers in the Mahasi tradition. So I suppose what, what happened was, you know, trying to maintain people's not only their interest, but their practice in between retreats. Because the retreats took a fair bit of organization, and we might have been doing group sittings at the time, and then encouraging people to start, you know, group sittings in their own area, areas as well. And I can't, I think the first, the first retreat I'm might have taught, might have been with Steve Smith in court in Hollyhock off Cortez. Cortez. I island off of Vancouver. I think he wasn't teaching with Michelle at that point, and I was also, I'd come back from this time in Asia, as you recall, I dropped out of my university degree before I left, so I came back and I didn't really have any qualifications to in terms of being able to work. And I had an interest in Southeast Asian Studies. I thought that would be interesting, but it wasn't available. It was, you know, I'd have to go to, you know, three hour drive away to be able to study it from where we were living. So I thought I'd study psychology, because that must be like meditation, right? Must be about the understanding of the mind. So I went off and studied psychology, and felt like I kept waiting for them to deliver the goods. And I kept waiting and ended up with a master's degree and still didn't feel like they'd got it. So I was now qualified as a clinical psychologist, and I didn't think anything was as good as meditation, of course. So I just My first job was at a pain clinic in Sydney, and I applied for that job because, you know, I thought meditators knew a lot about pain, and fortunately, the doctor running the clinic was reasonably broad minded. It was the first pain clinic in Sydney that was multi disciplinary, and he was kind of open to, you know, things like acupuncture might sound astonishing if you know you're in America, but Australia was sort of this would have been 1992 those things weren't necessarily considered, you know, Orthodox So, but a Pain Clinic, they could get the idea of relaxation, so I called it relaxation, and after a year, I changed all the paperwork to meditation. And that's probably, in fact, that's probably where I first started teaching meditation, was at the pain clinic. That would have been okay before I went off and did anything, I guess, down the track with Steve. So I had to teach meditation to people with chronic pain, and I was at the hospital, but I was also working with the doctor in his private practice. So I guess over time, what happened was I developed a language to try to to convey to people what meditation practice was about and what it could offer, offer them. And, yeah, that was, that was probably how I first started teaching, and some of those, because I was in private practice, then I was seeing people who had all they were presenting with all kinds of issues, not just with chronic pain. So pretty much, as I said in that synopsis I sent to you, there's, I think, in all of the 30 years I've been a psychologist, there's probably been two people who I've not taught to meditate because they didn't want to meditate because of their belief system. And they, yeah, it was Buddhist. And I also suppose, because of my background, in those early days in India, there were, there were, there was no, there was no sort of Buddhist envelope or rapping. So there was nothing. There was nothing like precepts or there was no, you know, discourses, no Dharma talks. Oh. Over time, of course, having, you know, had people like Sayadaw u pundita in the country, and he would give talks that were translated. And of course, more books were becoming available. So there was, you know, there was stuff you could read about. But certainly in those early years, it it was, it was about translating my practice to to clients, and then getting to a point where I realized, well, where are people going to go when they stop seeing me as a psychologist, because I haven't delivered it to them as a religion, like, quote, unquote, so if they want to keep doing their practice, what are they going to do? So I started setting up, like classes out of yoga studio, and then, you know, other people would hear about it. So, you know, we'd have four week I'd have four week courses, and then day longs for people who'd done a four week course, and then after I, you know, had done that for a while, it was like there were some of those people who wanted to do more, and that's when I started the Bali retreats.
Host 1:28:33
Right? And then you also have been involved in the development of the Blue Mountains Insight Meditation Center, where along your journey did that start to take place?
Lynne Bousfield 1:28:45
So the Blue Mountain Center was the center that initially was that property that was owned by friends who offered the property for our use as a center. So that was in the mid 80s. That's what's called the Blue Mountains Insight Meditation Center. So, yeah, we again. It basically started with, with, with Graham and I, and, you know, gradually, just pulling together, you know, piece by piece, things like, new, you know, newsletters and doing group sittings and inviting these, inviting teachers, and, you know, these using the convent, the Conference Center at the convent, and then we couldn't get that anymore. It often, it would just evolve by default, like a lot of people started using the convent to run all kinds of conferences. So we couldn't get dates. And then it was like, actually, we really need our own property. So we go looking for land. And then the friend says, well, he, I think he, that's right. He put the property on his property on the market, and couldn't sell it. And so then it was like, why don't we use this as the as a meditation? Center. And then we had, we might have had a committee at that point. And then we just went into fundraising mode, and, you know, trying to, you know, build, trying to set this very old house up as a way, in a way that it could accommodate a small group. We converted the garage into a meditation room. You know, it's kind of developed over time, with more accommodation built since Graham and I have no longer been involved in it. But here, as I said, we did end up inviting a lot of those teachers, kundala, sujiva, upandida, ulakana, they all came to that center in that, you know, in those early years. But there was a bit of a, I mean, Stephen and Michelle came as well. But I think, you know, we had a huge involvement of the Burmese community. As soon as the Burmese knew that the cider was, you know, were coming. It was like, all hands on deck. Yeah, they, they did a huge amount of work in terms of fundraising for the center, in volunteering, you know, coming up to help and to cook. And of course, some of them became meditators as well. They'd never meditated in Burma. Is the first time they meditated. So that was, you know, really fantastic for them too. Yeah, so that that was sort of the evolution of the Blue Mountain Center, it, it, it, it sort of got a little bit shifted on its access, although I think it's shifted back, because there's some people on the committee weren't happy with, You know, the amount of work entailed in bringing monks in because of all of the rules that had to be followed. So there was a little bit of a schism there for a while, but it seems to have sort of shifted back a bit now, because a lot of the well, they're not just Western nuns now, but also, I think there's a Nepalese nun who's been coming teaching to teach at the center, and There's been a couple of the other nuns who spent, have spent a long time in Burma themselves, who've come to teach, but I haven't had much to do, or anything to do with the center, really, now, for a very long time.
Host 1:33:19
So this center and and the work that you and Graham were doing this, be fair to say, this was really the mark of the beginning, along with the Goenka community that was also forming right around the same time, and actually right around the same area as well, in the blue right around the corner that This, this activity. It's funny because, you know, IMS and and in Massachusetts is also just right around the corner from dama, Dara. So funny how that happens. But this is really, this could really Mark kind of the opening, or the beginning of dama coming to Australia. That, that bit you were doing, yeah,
Lynne Bousfield 1:34:00
there is actually a book, which somewhere I have a copy of. I think it's called the history of Buddhism in Australia. And I purposefully wrote a piece to go in that book, because we must have got notified by whoever was compiling it that, you know, did we want to contribute something so, you know, in terms of our history and so, yeah, I think if I could find a copy of that book, I guess I wrote the piece so it's, it may have it delineated, you know, With dates, etc, a little more, I don't think any. In the end, anyone's name is particularly mentioned. It's more just, you know, positioning in time and with and with what was happening. But we Yeah, it, it's sometimes hard to get that timeline, yeah, but you know, I guess you know, I. So the meditation center, ultimately, of course, is the work of many, and some of those people who came as students us are still involved. I mean, Graham and I primarily started it because we both, you know, come back. I first met Graeme in India, but we'd both, you know, come back and and we're obviously very keen about about meditation, yeah, and then the people who've heard about it through, you know, offering the retreats have themselves become much more involved, and and some of those people are still involved, and still, I think, on the on the committee, you know, running the center, and some of them might even be, you know, teaching retreats there.
Host 1:36:01
And so as you were bringing this taste of dama for really, perhaps the first time in this new environment, and this was also a topic discussed in Graham's interview. And get his comments on, and want to get yours as well, after having spent all of this time, and it's native ground, so to speak, India and Burma and around here, and the hard, hard conditions that were faced, the adaptation to so many things that had to happen as a practitioner, you really had to bring yourself to it rather than the other way around. And as you started to bring the practice to your home country and to start retreats there, what did you notice about the way that people oriented towards the practice? What challenges did you face? What differences Did you find, and the contrast of how it was being practiced in back in those environments you had learned it and how it was now being disseminated here, and what were your considerations, and trying to think about the authentic way to bring it. I know that's a lot there. It's also it's interesting in contrast, because when you, when you think about this, in contrast with the Goenka courses, you don't necessarily have those same considerations, because you have a 10 day course that was designed, modified and really codified by Goenka, that that at least that part of it can just be kind of copy and pasted in these different environments where it goes. There's other considerations along with that, but the course format, the community, the rules, the instructions, though, that is, is all in kind of a neat package where there's a little bit less mental work that has to be done and how it's taken and exported. But what you guys were doing there was, it was much more, I think, exploratory, more the Wild West, more of kind of figuring out how to chart your own path and what you were doing. And so what do you remember about those early years of just trying to figure out, how do we, how do we bring some version of what we had? It's not going to be the same thing because it's a different environment, but how do we construct a similar version to what we had and bring it to people here, where it might be their first exposure?
Lynne Bousfield 1:38:21
Well, I think the because the first teachers we had were the Americans, I think they brought their model of, you know, whatever Joseph had decided a 10 day retreat might look like, for example, that was probably what happened. I mean, I wasn't at that first retreat. It was up the North Coast, and I was probably working or studying or something. I think Graeme might have managed it. So he may remember that himself, but it was probably whatever model was being used at IMS, for example. But they, you know, I think even Steve and Michelle when they came, they had some version, probably, of that. But when the sayadaws came, it was closer to a Mahasi model. So eight precepts, whereas the Western teachers would do five precepts. Usually, you know, was always eight precepts with the side doors. We wouldn't get up at 3am might have been four or maybe even 430 walking and sitting periods, I'm pretty sure, were probably our sit and walk like Burma, whereas the the the Western teacher retreats had sort of wound a lot of that back to 45 minutes a lot of the time. Sometimes that was hours, sometimes it was 45 minutes. But yeah, the the side or LED retreats was a just. Uh, you know, not necessarily 3am to 11pm it might have been 4am to 10pm so, but that said, I distinctly remember one of upandidas talks before we had our own center. And it was funny, because, of course, oh, I shouldn't say, of course, but meditation retreats in Australia probably the same in America, the food was always vegetarian, and it was going to the Mahasi meditation center for the first time when I stopped being vegetarian, because it was like, I can't survive on, Yeah, on vegetarian food in Burma, because the centers was a lot of meat, because meat was given, because that was considered the best you can give, and people wanted to give their best, and so that was meat. So there was all this meat, but so Sayadaw would come and, you know, we'd have Burmese food. Burmese would provide food for the side doors so that they weren't, you know, you know that they were eating something that was, you know, familiar to them, but they Sayadaw upandida knew that the Yogis were on a vegetarian diet, and he was giving this talk, and the talk was really about, you know, I Well, the way I've interpreted it is meeting the conditions. And he wanted to say pork. I think he did say pork cooks best in its own fat. But he he made a joke of it, and said something like, maybe you have to translate that as tofu cooks best in its own juice or something, so you know. And by that he also meant, you know, you need your own teachers. It wasn't just, I mean, they considered, of course, they were the side doors, you know, they he'd been a monk since he was seven or something, or some era, and then you they immensely trained, you know, trained in meditation practice. Not anyone becomes a meditation teacher that your meditation practice has to, you know, be worthy of you to becoming a meditation teacher. But you know, they have a lot of scriptural training. You know, the astonishing, you know, abilities. One of my teachers in in Burma, at one point, he used to teach from sayaw ula center, or he would stay there when he was in Rangoon. But he had a he, he was the Abbot, or appointed the Abbot, of a Mahasi center in a town down south called bait. It looks like mie, m, y, e, i, k, I think is the spelling when you look at it on the map, but it's pronounced bait, old run down Mahasi center, and he was a sutta pitika side, or which means He's memorized the suttas. So I there's no way I'm gonna ever be capable of doing so, you know, there's like, I think upandu was registering that, you know, communication is going to be more easy when you've got people who understand, you know where you're from and your language, and you know you need, you know diet that works for you. You need conditions that work for you. So even under difficult conditions, I don't, I think even under difficult conditions. I think he also meant, you know, you can still be practicing, you know that first retreat is so much work had gone into. It was a really big retreat because side or was coming. We had a whole entourage. I mean, just Sayadaw upandida landed on the plane. I mean, they weren't going to send him off on his own. Yeah, I think Alan Clements was therena ponika, the translator, was there. Sayadaw upandida was there, and he might have two other monks. So we had this whole little. You know, group of of monks. Alan was still a monk at that point, I think, and the retreat started as they normally do on a Friday night. So then we had the weekend, and then on Monday, unbeknownst to us, the council had decided to build a road behind the venue, and we had this, all of this earth moving equipment making a racket, and it was so bad that we could feel vibrations in the building. We were just going, oh no. How long is this gonna go? And, you know, side or just, you know, like, just gotta note it, not, you know, this is terrible. What have you picked this place? You know, there was no it was meet the conditions. They are used to, you know, noisy conditions in in Burma, of course, yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think, um, I think as far as the retreats that I, I mean, I guess I was trying to language my own instruction to clients, to help them understand and not use anything that might sound Buddhist. Not that I necessarily knew a lot about that anyway, but the first retreat that I ran in Bali was a very small group of 10 people, most of whom had been clients. And I got to Bali a few days before the retreat, and realized what I what I almost like on my god, what have you done? Bunch of clients to, you know, a foreign country, and they've got very little meditation practice, and I set up a particular structure because actually, all those participants, they weren't I think two of them weren't clients, but it just turned out that they were all women. And we had a painter's studio, and he had some bungalows in his compound, and we rented the studio as a meditation room, and the students stayed in the bungalows. I mean, this is a, this is also an interesting story. So I I basically structured the schedule to ensure that, because we don't, didn't have mosquito nets in the in the hall, there wasn't any of those kind of things that you tended to have in in places like Burma, I think a couple of people, actually, yeah, certainly at least one person wasn't staying there. There might have been a couple who weren't staying in the bungalows that's around at the meditation hall. And I structured it so that they people could be walking to where we practiced together in the morning when it wasn't dark, and they could be going home to wherever they were staying when it wasn't dark. And that was all done out of a concern for safety, not that I you know, Bali is pretty safe, but that's probably just my history. I didn't want my students to feel like they had to walk somewhere in the dark. They might have been fine with it, but I didn't. I didn't want that to be an another concern that for them to deal with. So, you know, meeting those conditions, I set up a particular schedule, and it's interesting. I've kept that schedule since that first retreat, which I think was 2011 I modified it a little bit last October because I couldn't get the dates, and we were heading into really hot weather, and so I changed it to keep people out of the sun. I remember having an interview once with Sayadaw upandida in Burma one year I was interviewing a. Interviewing with him one day and interviewing with whoever was then the Abbot, saya Pandita it was actually Sayadaw, ULA Kyaw, cousin. His name escapes me at the moment, but I remember leaving up panditas cooti. The interview must have been sort of in the middle of the day, and I started walking back to where I was staying, and next minute, I had Sayadaw Pandita standing next to me, saying, You don't need to walk slowly in the sun. And it might seem like a you know, like, why would you walk slightly in the sun? You know? Well, I'm from Perth in Western Australia, which is very hot. It probably wasn't a big deal to me, but again, to me, it was Sayadaw, kind of saying, Pay attention to the conditions. So it's a big thing that I guess I talk about, both in seeing clients and and as a meditation teacher, is understanding supportive conditions. What are the conditions that support the development of intelligent understanding, or, other words, wisdom? What are the mental conditions? What are the, you know, the environmental conditions. And to go back to that interesting story about Bali after that first retreat, the artist came up to me and he said, You know, sometimes I get really stressed, and I get on my motorbike and I ride up to this place in the north of the island, and it's kind of high, and there's, there's, there's a building there, and across the road from the building is a really nice tree with a view. And I stop under the tree, and I just stay there for a while looking at the view. And one time I walked over and I looked in to the building to see what was going on there. And when you started teaching this retreat, I realized that what was going on in that building was the same as what was happening here. And he'd gone to Mahasi center in the north of Burma, in the north of Bali there is a Mahasi center there. Upandida has been there. I'm not sure who the teacher is, but the painter now attends the Bali, the Bali retreat. So whenever I'm teaching there, he sits in on as much of the retreat as he can. Oh, nice, yeah, yeah. So it's one of the they're just really kind of, you know, I don't know, just it feels like you land in the right sometimes you land in the right place.
Host 1:53:07
Right? Yeah, we were talking about before to, to bring it full circle, and as you have then gone to develop a career in psychology and therapy. You know, this is this, these connections between understanding one psychology and going to a therapist and then going on a meditation course in the West, especially in the inside tradition, this has become these linkages have have really been emphasized by some, and that indeed many meditation teachers in the West and the US are also have this background in psychotherapy. And there's been much discussion in terms of where these two fields are connected, where they support each other, and where from both sides, both from the Buddhist meditative side and psychological side. There have also been some pushbacks in terms of where, where one field kind of has to stake its ground or to or to look at certain principles not being usurped or combined or integrated into something else. This is an ongoing discussion and debate that many various people have different angles to it. So being someone that has lived and practiced and worked so much in both of these fields, where do you find the connection, the similarities, the overlap happening between Buddhist meditation and and going to a therapist and psychology and where, if at all, do you see any cause for concern or care, just just a bit of D market demarcating the differences between them?
Lynne Bousfield 1:54:56
Um, well, certainly, you know. Up until the early 2000s I felt very little affinity with psychology, maybe driven by also my colleagues not really knowing what I was doing. Maybe I didn't know what I was doing either. I was just teaching people to meditate, and in the early 2000s meditation started to become introduced into psychology in Australia. Again, this is way later than the states. So up until that point, you know, the two were very separate. So meditation was some sort of, you know, a bit hocus pocus. I can remember my supervisor when I graduated and I started the pain clinic. He I would go to him for supervision, and I talked to him about the meditation practice. And he'd just say, Show me the evidence. Lynn, when you show me the evidence, then I'll listen. And he actually was at a conference some maybe 10 years later. There was an International Association for the Study of pain conference in Sydney that I presented at, probably, with a couple of other psychologist colleagues, and spoke about meditation practice and got people, you know, I gave people a little bit of a, you know, an instruction in the practice. And at that point I sat down and, I mean, I sat down next to him, and he, he said something along the lines of, well, I think I'm getting an idea or, you know, so it took quite a long time for Psych, psychology in Australia to begin to incorporate your meditation. It was situations like that. I think Jon Kabat Zinn came somewhere in the late, maybe 2000 or maybe around that time, and some of the psychologists I was working with went to his workshop, and would then say things to me like, you know, think I understand, you know a bit more, but now about what you've been doing, but I'm not going to do it, because I don't want to do I don't want to be a meditator. I don't want to do meditation retreats. So I won't be doing it. You go 10 years beyond that, and I think there's plenty of people talking about meditation to their clients and maybe teaching them or setting them up with some kind of app and but they don't. The clinician doesn't necessarily meditate themselves. So I, I think, also I've come to psychology, but I was first involved in meditation. And there may well be a difference between someone who's been a practitioner and has then done psychology, you know, undertaken a psychology training, to someone who's undertaken a psychology training and then become a practitioner. So they may well have a different kind of slant on how the process is unfolding. But to me, without sort of, you know, necessarily using Buddhist language, but I'm going to, I think the Dharma is the bigger box. So to speak, the Dharma is the bigger picture. Psychology is going to get us sit inside of that. I think a lot of psychologists would say it's not, you know, as much as we've got our society demanding that we provide evidence based treatments a lot of psychologists would say it's not about the modality, it's about the relationship, and it's a therapeutic relationship. And sure, there's a lot of people who are going to be looking for, you know, the quick fix, and give me some techniques. And some strategies, and maybe there are, then they're not necessarily the the people who are going to apply themselves to a meditation practice. I feel like it's harder to get clients to practice regularly. I could get people at the pain clinic to practice for 45 minutes a day. When I get people to do that these days, they're fine, wow, but getting them to do that is an uphill battle, yeah, um, so, you know. And I guess, I guess, the whole introduction of apps, you know, like I say to people, you know, when you when you're listening to that app, you know, it's not the same as doing the practice without listening to the Yeah. So most of that is kind of lost on maybe people coming to therapy, but they may well still be benefiting from what the practice has done for me in the way that I engage with them.
Host 2:01:15
Anytime a spiritual tradition moves and migrates across culture and space and time. It, it, it's natural for it to take on some of the characteristics and understanding of that culture where it's going into and it's, you know, just as might sound silly to give this comparison, but just as Buddhism moved into Tibet so many centuries ago and and made use of the Tibetan mythology and and belief system of the people then, which is then integrated into what into contemporary Tibetan Buddhism. So also the Western mind, and the type of western mind that was interested in meditation and not, you know, the more open minded, progressive kind of alternative folk were to give that analogy about that. Sayadaw Pandita said, it's not a not a pork that's stewing in its own juices. It's a tofu that's stirring in its own marinade. We can say, because that's so many of the people, Westerners that are coming in are are fitting into some kind of classification of of people, you could say generally more vegetarian and and, and also many of them having as just as pre Buddhist Tibet had its own belief system that many people fell into, many of the Westerners that have fallen into Buddhism come with An interest in psychology and therapy, and so it's natural that they would make these connections as they go. And I think this is as you look at the migration. This is also where one has to just make those demarcations of, you know, where is this a skillful way to be able to combine and integrate the contemporary understanding and interest in whatever it is, whether it's old Tibetan gods or or modern version of Western psychology. Where are you able to integrate these together so that they that that this makes more sense, and people can, can bring this in their lives. And where does it start to water down to the extent that you're you're really losing something by the attempt to give it a contemporary understanding with the society you're working with. So I think that's why it be, why it's this ongoing discussion and exploration. Because it's not, it's not totally clear. And there's, you know, there's different perceptions and biases of how these can go together or not go together in some ways.
Lynne Bousfield 2:03:43
Yeah. And I, I think that that's, that's the nature of it, really isn't Yeah. And, um, are we going to kill it off?
Host 2:03:52
Yeah. Or are we going to save it?
Lynne Bousfield 2:03:55
Are we going to save it? And it sort of look for a wild air, like we were going to save it, starting to look a bit like we're going to kill it off. Kill it off at the moment.
Host 2:04:05
And that also brings up, to bring another part full circle, what's going on in Burma today, and that's and I'll leave you with this last question to kind of close off, these two hours have really flown by. Really been wonderful to spend it with you. And you know, as we look at what's going on in Burma, Burma is all but closed off to Western practitioners. We don't know how long this is going to keep going, and obviously it's nothing compared to what the Burmese themselves are going through. But you know, for those Western practitioners, monastics, teachers, etc, the Myanmar is not open, as it's been in previous years, and it's and so the access to its centers and monasteries and teachers and the wider Burmese Buddhist culture that we talk about just being within this culture that is teaching you things beyond a simple technique that I. Um, you know, with this closed off, how, in what ways do you think it could have an impact on the refinement and understanding the practice of Buddhism and meditation in the West, not being able to have that access and interaction and travel as before? And I'll just kind of, before leaving that question to you, just talk a bit about the context of the question, you know, there are, we've spoken to many people on here who have, who have talked about, you know, what, what that decreased access means, really, in tangible terms, and, and, and how that interaction continues to heighten and refine the Buddhist approach in the West, there's a counter argument to it, that is, is more of, well, we've gotten these teachings, we've gotten these treasures, and we're good now. And yes, it's kind of sad what's happening in Myanmar. But you know, we've, we've we've been able to get the core of what this practice is in ways that weren't understood in the West before. And we're good, you know, it's we hope that, that that could be resolved sooner, as we hope with Gaza and Ukraine and Syria and everything else. But, you know, as far as the Buddhist communities and Sangha and practice goes, here, we've, we've kind of already exported what we need to know. And so there's, I've heard both sorts of views, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are. Someone who spent a lot of time over there has a lot of connections and is doing and working with communities here the fact that yourself, as well as any of your students, any of your peers at this time, can't go and get that benefit from spending extended time there. How do you think that does impact the the experience of teaching and learning and practicing meditation in Australia and other places around the world now?
Lynne Bousfield 2:06:57
Um, well, I think a big part of that is the actual exposure of the practitioner, to the, you know, a group of of people practicing in somewhere like the Mahasi center, but also to the teachers themselves, I feel immensely fortunate that I was able to be in Burma at a time When there was still, and I don't know, maybe somewhere in the forest, I mean, somewhere Burmese friends say, say things like, you know, we used to say, at least, things like, oh, you know, there's still a lot of people practicing, you know, they're hidden in the forest. You know, they're still, you know, potential for great teachers and but I think meeting people like Mahasi had an interview with Mahasi at the end of my first retreat there, and it was, you know, You're in the presence of something is very hard to describe it. It's there's some kind of recognition with it. But to try to describe what it is would make it sound like it was nothing, which is probably what it was. Felt like you're in front of nothing but nothing at the same time that was, you know, trustworthy and true. And I've probably had that with, you know, only just a handful of people that I met in Burma, but I think it's one of those situations when you've never had the opportunity to meet with that you you don't know what you haven't experienced. You know you don't know what you don't know? Yeah, yeah. I mean another in terms of respect for the practice after one of my retreats in Burma, I don't think it was the first one. But okay, so after the first retreat in Burma, I had a couple of days before I was leaving, and there was a young American woman who'd come to practice at the Mahasi center. She'd been ordained with Tom Pulu Sayadaw, but she, I can't remember. How long she'd been practicing in the north of Burma. She said the conditions were just too hard. So she'd come down to practice at the Mahasi center, and we went into town together. So she was wearing she had shaved heads. She was wearing the brown robes of a forest nun. And I, at the time, was wearing the brown lungi, or sarong of the MaHA female meditators wore, right? And a blouse we went into town and, you know, we just, we were standing outside of a of a like a shop, and debating whether we should get a Pepsi Coca Cola pulled out of Burma. Pepsi was still selling, and we're just standing there, and next minute, we both had a can of Pepsi. This woman had seen what we were doing, and she just immediately bought Pepsi and gave it to us. Oh, anyway, we have our Pepsi, and then we're walking around a little bit more. And because of all the time I'd spent in India, I sort of pull up outside of an Indian chai shop looking at the jalabi, which is a sweet that I used to really like, you know, we're sort of chatting about whether we should get some jalebi. You know, next minute we've got jalebi, and I'm kind of like, we better stop doing this, because, and where do you experience something like that? I've never experienced, yeah, you know, the Burmese man waiting at the train in Mandalay, and you know one of those retreats in Burma, you know the president of the Center at that time, it was Dr Webu when I was first there, but he retired, and ULA Chang became the next president. And after my retreat, hula Chang took me to the airport. And the airport in Rangoon was nothing like it is now. It was, you know, just, you know, stuff piled everywhere, and little boons and people with your name on your flight on a clipboard, and, you know, it's just like chaos, yeah? And he led me through the airport, and he just kept saying, Mahasi yogi, mahasa Yogi. And it was like the waves parted, you know? I mean, I doubt that's going to happen today, yeah, but to see the respect, yeah, not just the care, but you know, the respect people had, you know, Burmese, people would often say to you, you know, even in the later years, when I was in Burma, When they knew you were there to do a retreat. Was like, Oh, gee, that's Wow. That's amazing that you do. That's really difficult, that's too hard. I couldn't, you know, they knew what you're undertaking, but they also had a huge amount of respect for it. Yeah, so um, and then you were in the presence of teachers like Suu um inside, or Mahasi side, or inside or kundala. And you know, who, wherever they are, has just permeated the space around them. You know, I, that's what, that's what we've lost access to. But I guess I'm also heartened to some degree, by the stories of or what we've read about, you know, the 1800s and when people weren't really practicing, even in Burma, except, you know, yeah, maybe monks and nuns. People thought that the only people who could practice were monks and nuns, but the monks and nuns, you know, probably weren't doing the kind of practice that you know, Mahasi laid out especially for lay people. And you know, just decided to take themselves off in to the forest and see if this stuff that they'd memorized, you know, from the from the texts and the suitors, actually worked, and found that it did. So do things have to get worse, and then we maybe when, maybe when they get worse. And people, people sort of realize they've got to, you know, bear down a bit more and on the resources that they've got available to them. And and I. I don't know. Maybe it's just another cycle. I mean, I certainly would hope we'd be able to go back to Burma. Yeah, it, yeah. It certainly feels like, you know, it feels like home in what way, just it would always feel like when I landed in Burma, that I was safe, and also probably that you were, you know, I mean, Burma is very different to India, as you probably know, yeah, and it's certainly in those days in going to Burma, you felt like you were, what you were doing wasn't unusual.
Host 2:16:00
Yeah, right, I know the feeling.
Lynne Bousfield 2:16:04
You didn't have to explain, you know. Like, why on earth would you go and do something like that, you know? So, yeah, it felt, it felt like you could, almost like you could relax.
Host 2:16:19
Even though the practice itself was so intensive.
Lynne Bousfield 2:16:23
Yeah. but everyone, everyone understood that it was hard, but everyone was doing it anyway. Well, all the people wherever you were practicing.
Host 2:16:33
And that does give a kind of momentum and encouragement to break through certain barriers that are harder to do without that environment. That's another kind of, going back to what you get in Burma that you might not get practiced in other places. That's that could be one other aspect there. Yeah,
Lynne Bousfield 2:16:52
And I, I think the last time, the last time I was in Burma, um, I'm trying to remember the year ba do kundala had died. I think I went back a couple more times to sort of maranci. But, you know, it's interesting. It's about the teacher. You know, the center wasn't the same, I'm sure, yeah, and I did a few things up in Tun Lewin mee with he's more of an he's an academic sort of side or, I guess he's a registrar of the International University.
Host 2:17:47
Dr. Nanda, Moe. Yes.
Lynne Bousfield 2:17:52
Even the setup of the center was interesting, because it's this big sort of study, this this big hall. It's mostly used for lectures, and then you sort of go behind that. I don't know if you've ever been there, but there is a small Meditation Center, a small meditation Sala, or Hall, once you get further into the property. But the first thing is the is the really big hall where he teaches from. It's a great place to sit, but mostly it's used for, I think, a sitting in the morning, and then for lectures and Sayadaw inandan Mala his he says he doesn't teach meditation, and he he believes that you need to study before you practice, which I certainly don't believe. So I went to I went there a few times, two or three times, but it didn't resonate with me, and I did a little bit of a tour around the area, because some of the other side of side are locking up. For one, has a has a center there. There were some fantastic meditation centers. There no one in them, no teacher.
Host 2:19:33
Yeah, that does make a difference for sure. Yeah,
Lynne Bousfield 2:19:38
so you can, I mean, you can have the place, but we've got to keep we've got to keep growing teachers, and certainly the a place like that can help with the growth of teachers. But I think it's not the only condition.
Host 2:20:01
Yeah, right, yeah. There's so many different conditions and factors that go into that environment. And I think what I appreciate so much about Burma is just the diversity and depth of what is offered. There's just, there's a place for everyone. There's a place for whatever style of practice and instruction and environment that you're looking for and and coming from the west, I think, different from you, where you you, you found this practice in Burma, and then were instrumental and bring it to the west. But for me, having started practice over here, and seeing that core structure, it was just such a such an opening, such a a buffet table, a kaleidoscope of what was in front of you. And as you, you know, I think the two things you hit upon that are really true for me, and I really want to emphasize for listeners, is this sense, on one hand, this sense of of safety, that that you're you're going into another sense normality that, and these are two things that are not, are not Givens anywhere you go, just this sense of of complete for me, at least a sense of safety and protection and shelter and care that that was really found throughout, combined with this normality and encouragement of what I was doing, and that is something really hard to replicate those two features,
Lynne Bousfield 2:21:26
Yeah, yeah, for sure, but it's interesting a place like Bali. You know, most people who haven't been to Bali, or even a lot of people who have probably associate Bali these days with, you know, Cooter and Seminyak, and even maybe you would, and, you know, the Australian sort of out of suburb of Sydney or Darwin or somewhere where there's, you know, clubs and drinking and drugs and etc, etc. But the Balinese culture, even though it's, you know, you would probably say it was largely Hindu, it's been affected by Buddhism, so they're working hard to maintain their culture, and given what they've the onslaught that they've faced, especially, you know, from the West, you Know Australia, and probably you know, Europe as well, they've got a really strong practice culture. It's a different practice, you know, it's much more, you know, in terms of, say, Buddhism, you know, there's a lot of mandala kind of style practices with the making of offerings and the offering of offerings, and there's so much around what they do that's informed by their practice culture. And you go and sit, you know, we practice at the studio of the painter ka Joah and the family are so respectful of what we're doing, and they, you know, you'll see them moving around at designated times during the day, wearing their traditional clothes, carrying a tray of offerings, making offerings to The, you know, the various statues really focused on what they're doing. It's still really built in to their way of life, and still really looked after, and I think really felt that's one of the things that makes Bali so special when you can get away from the commercialization of of the landscape, you know, and and you know the commercialization of the culture that's mostly been commercialized by Westerners, not actually by the Balinese, you still feel that you're in a culture that understands practice.
Host 2:24:10
That's great. Yeah, definitely other places that bring that awareness and that allow mindfulness to continue to take off and to be practiced. And I really appreciate all the time that you took to sit down and share your story and bring some thoughts to our audience and and it was, it was great to learn all of this. So thanks for that time that you spent with us here.
Lynne Bousfield 2:24:34
Also. Thank you very much. It's been very enjoyable to talk to you about it again. Still, not that many people that you talk to about that sort of thing. So certainly, where I'm sitting Anyway, you've probably got a lot more more opportunity, or you've made a lot more opportunities to do that. So thank you for that as well. I've been reading a bit more of what's come through from the interviews that you've done as well. So it's nice to sit down and have those to read and feel that kind of connection to people who are also connected to Burma.
Host 2:25:18
Since the coup better, Burma has provided consistent humanitarian aid to vulnerable communities. Vulnerable communities across Myanmar over time, however, we have also come to realize that another consequence of the coup is a severely collapsed economy. Trade and Tourism have almost entirely evaporated, and local artisan communities suddenly found every opportunity of continuing livelihood closed off to them to help support those artisan communities better. Burma now brings item direct from their workshop into your home. These lovely pieces from a far corner of the world will not only light up your room or make a lovely gift for a loved one, but they'll also help dozens of artisans create sustainable businesses and livelihoods. Part of each purchase will also go towards our ongoing nonprofit mission, see these beautiful crafts, visit Aloka crafts.com that's Aloka A, L, O, K, A crafts, C, R, A, F, T, S, one word, alokacrafts.com of course, as is your preference, you can also consider making a donation through our normal channels, if you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method, Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions aiding those local communities you need it. Most donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement, CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person, IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries, education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies, COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode, all of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission, Better Burma. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website, betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites, except credit card. You can also give via PayPal, by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon, Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search Better Burma on each platform, and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org, that's Better Burma, one word, spelled B, E T, T, E R, B, U, R, M, A.org. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar, available at alokacrafts.com any purchase will not only support these artisan communities, but also our nonprofit's wider mission that's Aloka Crafts spelled, A, L, O, K, A, C, R, A, F, T, S, one word, alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.