Transcript: Episode #316: The Hunger Games
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 00:10
Take a peek behind the curtains, and you'll find that recording a podcast conversation is a fascinating and somewhat unique experience. In that moment, the guest and the host are speaking privately, sharing their thoughts and stories just with each other, yet they do so, knowing that their words will later reach 1000s of listeners, each experiencing the conversation in their own way, shaped by their own perspectives and reflections. And so at Insight, Myanmar podcast, we try to conjure up the image of our listeners as though you're seated there with us a third share at the table, so to speak, which helps us create the feel of a more intimate conversational experience. So as you listen, we hope that you can lean into this connection and join us in exploring these stories and discover where they may take you. So welcome to the conversation. We're glad you're here.
Host 02:12
for this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast, we're really pleased to welcome our guest. Thin Lei Win. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us.
Thin Lei Win 02:19
Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
Host 02:23
So we've been circling for a while trying to have this conversation for your background and resume and the kinds of things that you can talk on two hours is indeed going to be a short period to try to cram everything in, but we'll do our best in welcoming everything you have to bring from your background and voice to this platform.
Thin Lei Win 02:41
Yeah. I mean, I think it's going to be quite a challenge to try and cover everything, but yeah, we'll try our best. Yeah. So like you said, my name is Khin Leah, Wen. I was born and raised in Yangon, Rangoon, Burma, Myanmar, whatever you want to call it. I am a journalist. I have been a journalist for a, oh, my god, two decades now, or even a little bit longer. And I always tell people I wear two hats. One is my Myanmar hat, because obviously, you know, that's my identity, that's, that's, that's who I am, where I was born and raised. And the other hat is food systems, which is a topic that I work on as a, you know, as a journalist, I investigate inequalities within the food systems globally, but also it's a topic that I feel extremely passionate about. And my background, growing up in an agrarian country, really sort of informs how I see, how I see the, you know, the food system globally. And, you know, I grew up in a family of foodies, where for us, you know, cooking, eating and sharing food is, is sign of love and affection and caring. So, you know, I bring all of that to my day to day job, which is, which is on food systems. I mean, I, as you could hear, you know, I'm very much focused on I'm a bit of a workaholic, so everything I do revolves around a bit of work. And whenever people ask me about my background, I'm always like, Yeah, this is what I do.
Host 04:35
But that's so interesting because, you know, we I attended an event where you gave a talk recently at Frontier, and you're you're embodying the same dynamic that you were trying to get some of the journalists out that you were working with on KY tales, as wanting them to to see the separation between the work they report on and themselves and their own stories and their own voice, which is now what we're asking you about yourself and your stories and your own voice. Yeah, and then how that flows into the work?
Thin Lei Win 05:01
Yeah, that's a great point. So I come from this sort of, like all school journalism, where you are never supposed to be the story, right? That that, that you are supposed to be the observer. You stand back and you see what's happening, and then then you report and and then, like you said, you know, kite tails, which is one of the projects that I'm involved in. It's a nonprofit storytelling project that I co founded with another journalist, Kelly McNamara, in 2016 for that project, we're asking journalists, particularly since, since the coup to really do storytelling and let the readers understand and connect with them on a personal level beyond just their jobs. But yes, as you can see, I find it hard to do it with myself. It also it just feels I know why those journalists struggle, because I have the exact same struggle. In a sense, it feels a little bit too self indulgent to be talking about you as a person when you're like, No, no, I'm just a journalist. You know, I'm here to, I know it sounds like a cliche, but I'm here to bear witness.
Host 06:23
And yet, you've also been on the other side of this dynamic, where you've also been in the position of convincing those journalists that their own personal stories do matter and are part of the news and are part of the story. So to play devil's advocate with the own concern that you're presenting what, what is the reason and the rational rationale for this greater storytelling, where it's not just the traditional mindset of a journalist, but where greater storytelling fits in, and what does that bring when we're able to go there?
Thin Lei Win 06:50
I think, you know, on a very basic level, we connect with each other as humans, right? For me, anyway, whenever I read an article or a book a story, the ones that resonate the most are the ones where you sort of know a little bit about the person behind the words. And I think that's where I'm coming from when I try and convince, you know, genres from Myanmar to sort of put themselves, not when writing news. I'm very, very clear about that, like when you're writing news, your opinions, your statement, you know, ideas, they should not be part of the story. We should not be part of the story. It should be about facts. But for the kind of diaries that we're doing with the kite tails, I think it makes such a big difference if people are able to to connect, like I said, you know, on a personal level. And I also just think that if only we are able to sort of do that on so many different matters, there'd just be a lot less problems in the world. You know, it's a very simplistic way of looking at it, but I do think that once you've, you know, it's the same thing. I think with sharing a meal, that's why, to me, food is so important. Once you've shared a meal with a person and have that connection, no matter how fleeting I think you're just so much less inclined to to be dismissive of their concerns or worries or their fears, right? And that's where, that's where I want the diaries to connect on that at that level, if that makes sense.
Host 08:44
Yeah, absolutely. And such a beautiful thought about sharing a conversation or a meal. And I often tell people, although our platform is in the media space, I personally come from a training background, so I'm my approach to this is more training based than than and a specific kind of training based than media based. And I often think of the words of Caleb catenho, who said, speaking is easy, communication is a miracle. And this is kind of a cute expression when you hear it the first time my training went into kind of picking apart the deep wisdom behind these words in very profound ways. It just kept unlocking and opening up what that really meant. And as you're talking about this role of storytelling, I'm thinking about my own when I started to come of age, so to speak, and some of the first influences I had that I'm thinking one was Terry Gross with fresh air, and one was the New York Times feature magazine that would do features on people. And there's so much in the media space now in the West, but at the time, these both, I felt were kind of groundbreaking in the ways that I remember when I listened to Terry ghosts with fresh air. She would have, you know, athletes and politicians and film stars and others, and she would just have a way to get past the the kind of surface sound bites that you would hear everywhere, and just hear the. Depth in the humanity that would just bring out who they were, and then how that attached to the work, which I think definitely is obvious why it relates to what I'm trying to do here. But I share that because I want to then bring that back to the Myanmar space. And I know that the way that Myanmar news is covered, it's covered in Burmese in one way, in ethnic languages, it's covered in English in a slightly different way, and that's more what I have access to, but in looking back at this, this kind of wider media landscape, of the way that you can do traditional journalism, and then the way that that storytelling can take place, and these examples that I reference of how I started to get more into the news, from these kind of fresh air or or feature magazine, feature articles in New York Times, to what degree do you see that that balance taking place in contemporary and recent decades in Myanmar?
Thin Lei Win 10:51
That is me. That's a really interesting question, but also, I think in some ways quite difficult to answer, so part of the way I think the news media in Myanmar developed was also because of the environment in which it had to sort of grow organically, right? It was a very, very restrictive environment for a very, very long time, and then it opened up quite briefly when I think not many people were expecting it. So there was a lot of catching up to do. And now we're back, you know, behind the curtains again and and so I see a lot of, and this is just my personal opinion. I see a lot of the news media and Myanmar as reactive, which you know, which isn't to say that it's better than the rest of the world. News Media traditionally has been reactive even in the most developed democracies, but I think in Myanmar, it's just even more challenging just because of the history, just because of the lack of infrastructure and support networks just because of how it had to, it had to grow so it has very much been based on what is happening, and how do we react to what is happening. I felt like, you know, just before the coup happened in 2021, you know, between before that and maybe, perhaps, maybe, you know, just before COVID, we, you know, the media was experimenting a lot with newer form, more creative and innovative ways of presenting things where we were, I guess, finally, sort of overcoming that, you know, the reacting to the news and sort of thinking more strategically. You know about, not just how do we cover what's happening in the country, but also, how do we see ourselves. How do we what do we want to read about? You know, both, both. I guess the internal phase is, what's the external face that we want to show? Right? But it was too short, and I felt like for the last it's almost nearly four years now since the coup, and I think for the last, for the last year, nearly four years again, we have been playing catch up. We have been reacting because the situation was just extraordinary, great. We've been in emergency mode. I mean, I know journalists who have not really had a proper break since the coup happened. You know, newsrooms that have been running 24/7, and it's all been based on adrenaline and reaction, and it's, it's, it's, but I think now we are starting to again. Think, you know, partly, I think, out of exhaustion, partly also just because, like, okay, yeah, we need to, we need to start thinking strategically again. What do we do? So I think a lot of media, Myanmar media, has, has had to be reactive because of lots of different circumstances. And it's, you know, it's a shame, because obviously, literature and journalism are not not the same. But you know, Myanmar has such a rich history of of literary you know, excellence and interest and and and you. Yeah. And it feels like, you know, the the news media, the news community, was just starting to catch up on some of those aspects of it, when, when things changed again. So I don't know if I answered your question, but that's, that's how I, how I see the landscape.
Host 15:20
Yeah, that's incredible. There's so many threads in there that we can pull in so many directions to go. And just to follow up on the last little bit you said, you talk about the richness of Myanmar's literary scene. Can you expand on that for our audience members who may not be so familiar with the field of Burmese literature?
Thin Lei Win 15:37
Okay, so I guess you know where I coming from is, is very much based on my experience and my childhood. So I guess in some ways, we're going back to your first question about, you know, like introducing myself to me, to the listeners. So I, you know, when I was growing up, the room that my sister and I grew up in had wardrobes on on, like, three, three walls, like, literally, it was just and, and they were full of books, right? There was one which was all English books. So, you know, that's how I learned to read and love Agatha Christie. That was Jane Austen. That was my, you know, my mother, Alistair Maclin, you know, like my mother's collection of books. And she loved reading books, and she really enjoyed it when she see us reading books, like, to the point where, like we used to, we used to joke about how strict she was with books like her books, whether it's Burmese or English. Would have, you know, those little library cards inside with the title and the author, and then you have to sign out with the date, yeah. Like, like, she'd have them in every single one of her books, so if any of her friends, or even her children wanted to, like, read it, like they had to sign out to do it. So, you know, that's the environment I grew up in. So then there's another wardrobe, which was full of sort of, like comics, you know, all all Hollywood magazines from from the 50s and the 60s. So you've got like Mad Magazine, or, like, you know, like so, or pictures of of Audrey happen, you know, and Gregory pack, for example, so, and then we had one where it was just full of Burmese fiction and nonfiction, you know, so let's just talk about fiction. Because I think, you know, there's a lot more historian and literary folks who could probably talk about all the non fiction aspects, although there, you know, there were some amazing books. But the fiction that I grew up with, obviously, was from my parents days. They were from the from 60s and the 70s. And there were just really amazing authors, particularly female authors that I grew up with. There's, there are three that I want to cite here. One is called khinin You. Another one is called Khin Suu, and the third is Ma San da, you know. So those were the like. There were also, you know, dako po NY. They were also, like, famous male authors. But I was drawn to these female authors that way, you know, in the six, I could be wrong in terms of the decades, but this was in the 50s, 60s, 70s. You might need to double check that such strong characters, they were not all love stories. You know. They were about the changes happening in the country. You know, they were about the role of woman at home, at work, in the politics and they had freedom to write.
Host 19:03
Yeah, it felt like that.
Thin Lei Win 19:08
And you know, particularly some of the, you know, books written by kin Suu, where the female protagonists would be just super headstrong, very clear ideas of self, sense of self, you know, and and have political opinions about what's happening in the country. It was just fascinating to read. And, you know, there was one short story from masandar, who, you know, there was one particular passage that I still remember to this day, when you know, the female frognus, who's a doctor, was talking to her boyfriend and essentially saying, why the. Why is it that our people only think merit making happens when you donate to pagodas and temples and monasteries? We have so many people needing help at our hospital. You know, the pagoda doesn't need another big, golden building. The monastery doesn’t need another shiny, big thing. Why wouldn't they just feed the people at the hospital a really good meal? I don't understand, and I remember reading it and like, like, you know, like, bulk going, like, ding, ding, ding. And I grew up in a very, very Buddhist family, you know, my grandfather was the head of the YM ba young men's Buddhist Association until he passed away. So then this was the big, you know, religious Association when I was growing up. So, so it was a very Buddhist religious household, but grandpa was also very at least. I saw him as questioning and tolerant and curious. Right when I was growing up, I would remember, you know, like in the evenings, him and his friends having these discussions with with a Buddhist scholar and having debates, you know, around around different aspects of Buddhism and and, and, and. So that's, you know, that's, that's how I grew up, and that's how I I learned about, I guess, both, you know, reading and literature and understanding the world to me. You know, those books made me think of my country and my culture in a different perspective. Because, if you like, you know, I'm not saying this. This happened to everybody, but I grew up very coddled, I guess, and protected and so, you know, I was a precocious child. But up until when 1988 happened and I started reading those books, I didn't realize how, how, what's the word, how dysfunctional my country was, you know, and I think, and I think that's something at least a lot of my peers could relate to, because, you know, the family was just like, No, no, you know, we're gonna we're gonna protect you. We're not gonna let you see the, you know, what? The, I guess, the dark, the darkness outside, and the house is a safe, you know, space. And I was very fortunate. I know that, I guess you know, so many other people probably didn't get that chance or the opportunity to grow up in that way. But I grew up without realizing, or all, you know, all that forces that was happening around me. And it wasn't until, I guess, you know, like I said, 1988 happened, and I read those books that I'm that really made me, you know, both appreciate as well as question the things. That's happening in Myanmar. So, you know, I always, yeah, I always see literature, good literature, in, you know, as having this amazing history in Myanmar. They were, you know, and I'm only talking in a very narrow sense of like, three authors that I grew up with, but you know, you've got a long history of opinion writers, commentary writers, you know, like the LU du Joah, ma and Lulu. You know that that that whole tradition of questioning, you know, issues and things. And I just, yeah, I just, I just, you know, obviously una win during his, his, his, his reign, tried to restrict a lot of that. But I was extremely fortunate to grow up in a house where I still had access, you know, to to all of that, despite, despite all that was that was going on, which was also why it wasn't until 1988 that I realized, hang on a minute. So not everybody get to read these books. Not everybody had, you know, like a book about this particular this Doctor Who. Suu was very close with Bucha Anton. And the days of, you know, the revolutionary days, you know, it's like, oh, okay, not everybody had a chance to grow up that way.
Host 25:12
That's so fascinating. And as you say this, I what comes to my mind is just all the interviews that we've done that you're expressing something that goes into this common thread, which is that you're simply just trying to live your life as a young person going into and then as you're advancing in years, as we all are on this world, and yet, as you're just trying to find your own path and sense of fulfillment and livelihood and studies and everything, it suddenly is becoming increasingly aware to you that you somehow have this like burden to this dysfunctional country, that you can choose to what degree you want to take on this burden in addition to yourself and your own career. And this is true of students and doctors and journalists and and entrepreneurs and you know, on and on and on to what degree do you want to to to? I don't know if sacrifice is the right word, because I've had some guests who said they really don't like that word. They feel what they're doing is not sacrificing, but this responsibility. So whatever the word is a responsibility or a burden or a an obligation or desire to want to figure out what you can do to uplift and help this dysfunctional country from falling further into this pit of darkness. And on one sense, it is this burden, but on the other sense, it's also this recognition that, hey, I'm actually the one with the privilege that is in a position. Look, these people don't even have the privilege to think of they're they're the they're the ones being victimized. They don't even have the space or the breath to figure out how to, you know, from avoiding air strikes and food insecurity and landmines and everything else going on. They don't even have the privilege that I have to think of having this burden. But, you know, I wonder if Would you go so far as to say that for much of the Burmese diaspora and those that find themselves with some degree of privilege in the BA Mar Community that this is kind of a trauma slash burden slash obligation that one has to figure out and navigate as you go forward in life.
Thin Lei Win 27:10
Yeah. I mean, I would choose to use responsibility instead of, because I feel like, you know, obligation of burden has a negative connotation, whereas responsibility is a little bit more neutral. But it's also about, in some ways, being proactive, right? Like, like, like, you have a choice. You have a choice to say, look, I'm not responsible for this. But you also have a choice to say, Do you know what I am willing to take on this responsibility, right? But there's also, I tell you, a vast amount of survivor's guilt, yeah, yeah. And I don't even want to talk too much about it, because just even mentioning it feels unfair, given what people on the ground are going through, but, it's it's a thing. Yeah, it's a thing. And I think that propels a lot of us who are outside of the country, who, like you said, have the privilege and freedom, a certain degree of freedom to speak, to do something, to to keep doing it, because that is, it feels like that is the least we could be doing, right? I mean, I've like, you know, after the coup happened, you know, I've thought about it. I've discussed did with people like, Where can I add the most value? Right? I am not a humanitarian worker. I do not know how to deliver aid. I'm pretty crap at, you know, organizing large scale, that kind of, you know, a delivery kind of thing. What do I know? I know about journalism, I know about storytelling, I know about communications. So that's perhaps where I can add value. And in the same way with the kite tails and other stuff that I do, you know, with the kite tails as well, we were like, Okay, we're two germ laughs. What can we do? We can support other germ laughs, right?
Host 29:54
So this is a good chance to go into the kite tails and tell us a bit about the. The origins of how they were founded, and then with the coup, how the work shifted.
Thin Lei Win 30:04
Sure. So I think I said a little bit earlier that kytells is a little nonprofit storytelling project that I set up with a fellow Jonathan good friend, Kelly. And the whole idea of the KY Tales is to chronicle the lives of ordinary people in Myanmar. We, you know, both of us, obviously, I'm Burmese Kelly isn't, but we've been covering Myanmar for a long time, by the time we set it up in 2016 and we've always discussed how frustrated it is that that a significant portion of coverage of Myanmar is very stereotypical, a very black and white, very much a single story, right, like the lady and the generals. But this is a country of 50 odd million people with their own lives and histories and amazing resilience and experience. I mean, I don't even sometimes like to use the word resilience, but we can get into that later, but it is and you know, like we would go to the most remote corner of Myanmar, go into some village somewhere, have discussions about people's experiences and hopes and dreams, the challenges they faced. Had fascinating discussions, and then, if we're lucky, two two sentences from that discussion would go into our stories, yes, right? Yeah. And, and we were like, Oh my God. Like, why can't we do something that shows how amazing and diverse this country is? And also, we were slightly getting worried about the fact that people were so, you know, this was again, 20, you know, 15, 2016, the heyday of Myanmar's opening, people were so focused so much on looking forward. Nobody wanted to look back. And people were also looking forward to this whole, you know, national identity and Myanmar and all that, that at some points, I felt like they were downplaying how diverse the country was and and not seeing the diversity as a richness, but as a weakness. And it's like, come on. No homogeneity. You know, works in some ways, but we're not a homogeneous nation. We need to admit it. We need to celebrate this, right? So that was another aspect that we wanted to bring in to the kite tails. So we took time off from work, unpaid leave, bagged and borrowed our way travel to different parts of Myanmar in like most of 2016 and and essentially just went around talking to ordinary people, some of whom are were extraordinary, just like about their lives, you know, like that could be anyone from somebody who drives A horse, drawn carriage em Amiel, you know, to an activist in de waer, you know, to, you know, a lady in then, in Koran who had, you know, who grew up during the British occupation, so The Japanese came in, you know, had her family, like many of her family members, killed, went through all of the turmoil of the Second World War, the military dictatorship and then the civilian government. Right? We met this guy who was the only official photographer for the pan long convention when Aung San those agreements with the some of the ethnic leaders, his photos are now in the in the British Library, you know. So it was just, you know, it was an incredibly enriching experience. And we wanted to bring those stories as first person accounts in both Burmese and English, as a way of of telling the rest of the world, hey, hey, it is not just the lady and the generals. There's this vast, you know, a number of untold stories, and also to let people inside the country understand what's happening in the rest of their own country. Because, you know, one of the things that I think people who grew up. Between 1962 and maybe the early 2000s understand was like, we don't, we don't talk about some of those things. Yeah, we don't. We don't discuss what happened. You know, we don't, like, I grew up in the Burmese education system, right? Like, we were taught for years and years and years, we were taught these mythical kings, about these mythical kings that, you know, rule all these kingdoms of pre unified Burma, Myanmar, whatever you want to call it, right, like, Oh, my God, those like kings and their consorts and all of that stuff. But then, you know, it was like history almost stopped in 1962 there was, there would be, like, three pages, you know, afterwards saying, Oh, yes, you know the Burmese, you know socialist, you know party, and Nune win took over, and we're now going to Burmese, you know, the Burmese way of socialism. And this is what's happening. So history was something that happened, you know, with the kings and the British occupation, Japanese occupation, and the assassination of Bucha Aung San cabinet. And then it just, it just ended, right? And, and, and people stopped being interested in history like that particular year, I remember reading a news article in 2016 from from a news article from a local journal say there was actually nobody who enrolled in the history course at Yangon university that year. And we also, we also wanted to sort of like, you know, I mean that sound very arrogant, and I didn't mean it to be, but we also wanted to change people's perspective on what history was and what kind of history we get to talk about and write about. And there's so many different histories. And also add a lot of nuances to, you know, people in the Naga region who never invited, never wanted, the Burmese soldiers and the Ba marisation of their culture. What do they feel about it? And also, you know, I come from the majority region. Sorry, I come from the majority religion, majority ethnic group, the BA Mar Bucha. So it's the right religion, the right ethnic group. It's like, you won the lottery, right? And I really wanted people to understand, because it's like, the way I've met so many people within the community who are like, Why? Why are the minority groups so upset, so angry? You know? Like, there is a reason, you know we were, I think we could excuse ourselves for not knowing when it was under N Andre and you know, but we no longer have that excuse. We have opened up. We really need to understand what has happened to this country and.
Host 37:59
Well, then Facebook filled that gap, yeah.
Thin Lei Win 38:01
but in a horrible, horrible, horrible way, right? Yeah? Like, yes, completely skewed, yeah, absolutely right. So we also wanted to to raise those discussions, to have those conversations. And that was the whole idea around Kyi tales, you know, like, like, particularly, going to minority areas and hearing what they'd experienced and how it was, and hopefully bringing that back and and and getting people, you know, Burmese, people within the country or the diaspora, to understand what had happened. So that's, that's how, that's how it started. We had to pivot after the coup, of course, because it became very, very dangerous to do these individual, personal, first person accounts, because anybody who we would profile could become targets, right? And in fact, I would say we probably still have about two dozen stories from other parts of the country that we went to before the coup and before COVID, that we hadn't published just because we didn't want them to get into trouble, but like, the ones that we'd publish happened way before the coup, so that's fine, you know? And so we pivoted into just talking about, why are people protesting? Why are people so upset? Why are people so, you know, angry again, first person accounts, but literally, a year after the coup, we discussed Kelly and I discussed like, like, what I said earlier, as well as like, Where can we at the most value, you know? And it's not to not to go into Myanmar, you know, from the border, and cover all the fighting. You know, we we don't think would be best place to do that or to deliver aid. We think the best way we can add value is to amplify the voices. Difference of people who are living the situation, whether they're across the border or still within the country. And we're journalists. We know storytelling, we're no communication. So we're like, let's support Burmese journalists. And when I say Burmese journals, I don't mean ba Mar you know, just to make the distinction, like journalists from the country, from different parts of the country, who are struggling because a vast majority of local news outlets had to shut and many journalists lost their jobs. And you know, even before the coup, journalist was journalism in Myanmar was a lowly paid profession that invited more rancor than applause, so we wanted to support journalists who were struggling to financially for You know, at least one year each each journalist, and then so that, you know, there's some financial security. And then what we do is ask them to write anonymous diaries about what life is like for them and for the people they know and met, and then to hopefully release it to the rest of the world.
Host 41:23
Right? It makes me think, when you're talking that we you know now, after the coup has taken place, there was very much this sense of firefighting mode in all aspects of journalism, of actual firefighting, of humanitarian aid and reporting and so much else. And in some cases this, well, in every case, this was a disruption. But in some ways, disruption works to be able to the work that one is intending to do gets thrown off course, and you can't do it. You can't recover. Things become too hairy. But you know, history has also shown that in times of great upheaval and disruption comes a new spark of creativity or of production that in really all fields, that couldn't happen. You know that that kind of especially tense and volatile situation, tragic as it may be, also brings out other things in the human spirit and the human mind to be able to produce that it wouldn't necessarily under ordinary conditions. And so I also wonder, in this post coup, Myanmar that we're looking at to what degree Have you seen the disruption and the trauma that's taken place as being something that has kind of ended or curtailed all the beautiful creative efforts that have happening and out of that, like a phoenix rising from the ashes, to what degree Have you seen things yourself, included your own projects, included that have been able to to look at this new landscape and do things that maybe weren't possible before? Yeah.
Thin Lei Win 42:50
No, that's a really great question. And in fact, you know, soon after the coup, I actually wrote a feature article for Nikkei Asia about this burst of creativity from Myanmar artists. And you know young, young artists. You know all this protest art. You know an amazing, you know music and stories that were coming that was like, despite the heavy subject matter, in so many ways, life affirming, you know, so obviously it is now slightly different, because there was, you know, there was protest art, protest songs. Now it's very much all of that had to go underground, right? But I think it has definitely given birth to, I think, a new generation of artists, you know, looking at it from a different perspective, and energized some as well. I mean, that's very shallow, I guess reading of, you know, just, just in terms of looking at protest art, but also, you know, from from a deeper perspective, and I've said this before, like the coup, the subsequent protest, and in many ways, sort of like also the discussions that came after, I felt like had sort of broken a lot of the taboos. Yes, yeah, for sure, cultural and so social topics that were once off topic. Can you give us some examples so questioning the role of of, of of, let's say monks and religion. You know, in society, it used to be completely unquestioning. Now people are starting to question it. You know, which I think I. Consider myself a practicing Buddhist, but I find that so great and so refreshing. Yeah, yeah, that that blind obedience to a robe is no longer there, I think, which, to me, is something worth celebrating. There's suddenly, there's still a long way to go, but that's a better understanding and realization of what the majority ethnic group has been doing to the minority groups, and that includes, to some extent, what has happened to the Rohingya that was such a, you know, people, some people find me coming out to say I was wrong or I shouldn't have. I shouldn't have, you know, believed what the military was saying, you know, I think we still have a long way to go, but that's a giant, big stamp that we didn't think was possible. And, you know, the the other, I guess, you know, three, three things that I see that I think are big change. And the third one is, it's very sensitive and also going to be controversial, but I think it's important to discuss is also questioning. Questioning do Suu, right? It was almost like unimaginable to criticize, to critique, to question her decisions and policies. And I think it's very, very dangerous whenever we think one person or one group is above reproach. That's how we get dictatorships, right? And as a country with the kind of history that Myanmar has had, I think we need a much more. We need a cultural where we can discuss things and not take that as a personal attack, where we can have a healthy debate without resorting to personal attacks.
Host 47:27
Or without seeing that debate or discussion as a means of leverage, as a means of sharp elbows and trying to get your territory, but just as a an experience of sharing space and being able to realize that Their your reality and your truth does actually, actually, doesn't negate my reality and my truth. There's a way that these two contradictory and contrasting and sometimes even combative histories that they can coexist, and even if we don't quite understand, you know, where they coexist, we can, we can hear and acknowledge, but that can happen if every discussion is based on resolutions and leverage and decisions, because then you're not listening the same way.
Thin Lei Win 48:04
But, but that's, you know, like picking up on what you said, like what they their experience, doesn't negate mine, right? And I think that is such an important thing to remember when we are discussing these, these things.
Host 48:19
And that's hard, you know, even in my country, that's, it's really, you know, my country is so divided right now. And to to I think it's just a thing of human nature. Sometimes it can be a bit more embattled and embittered, but I think it's just a thing of human nature to have. And it's not something I was born with. It's something that I went through with my training and my life experiences. The profound, one of the profound transformations and learning in my own life, personally, was the fact that someone else's truth did not negate mine, and I could actually listen to them and take there was a way using language, using ownership of language, to take ownership for what I was saying, what I was expressing, and when I hear that ownership from someone else to be able to realize we're not going after an objective, all knowing, authoritative truth. We're going after the coexistence of Subjective Truths that all have a right in place to be there. Yeah.
Thin Lei Win 49:05
And I mean, like, this is a very famous quote right of the Nigerian or the chimananda Ngozi Adichie when she talked about the dangers of a single story, right? Like, when you just focus on that single story and how you other you know the anything that negates or disagree with you and but you know that I think I just felt like for a very long time, that's how Myanmar has been, yes, been A single story.
Host 49:38
Why do you think that is?
Thin Lei Win 49:42
Oh, that's a that's a good question. I don't have an easy answer. I think it's probably a whole host of reasons, and there's both internal and external, right, like for the external audience, it was just so much easier. And. So much sexier to see Myanmar in a single through that lens, right, a single story, and so much more more convenient to explain away all that happening, right? I think within the country, I do think we have a a traumatized populace, and for so long, it was, you know, like fighting against a force that was just so much bigger than you that maybe it's also just easier, you know, to to, it's, it's human nature, isn't it? Like, if only we could sort this one thing out, everything would be okay. I mean, that's, that's just my reading of it. I could be completely off base. But I think it's just both, you know, external fact, you know, the external world looking in and us looking outside. I think it was just a more convenient and easy way of looking at things because, because it's comp, I mean, it's like, like, like, what's fascinating to me, right is the fact that we all know that those decades under the military dictatorship are horrible, are brutal. It, like the vast majority of people in the country, could not lead a dignified life like you know that that that's that's just, that's how it all boils down to, right? And yet, we are also a product of that system, right? That's a hard truth, and that's tough. That makes it really challenging, like, like, even when. And I'm not saying I know better than anybody, and I know also that there are lots of others who think like me, because obviously, you know, there's little support communities. But I think sometimes like, like, like, we need to constantly, consciously make concerted efforts to remember that we are a product of that system, and we need to constantly question our tendencies to go for the easiest solution or to go for something that looks the neatest like, you know, like once when We start first having parliamentary democracy, wasn't perfect, nowhere near perfect. But people were like, Oh, God, this is too messy. No, this is, this is, this is what democracy is, right? It's like life. Life is messy, right? Governing in collaboration and cooperation is messy. That's why dictatorships are so easy, right? Because, because if you have, if you have opposition, you just quash them. So I think sometimes we also, sometimes we're like, this is this is too messy. Can we just listen to one person? Can we just listen to one authority? That could be one of the biggest challenges in the near future, when Myanmar becomes free again, is that we do not fall back into that easy, neat, you know, like tendency and solution. Because I think that if you know, we've discussed all these taboo topics that have suddenly become out in the open and we can discuss, and it's in it's fantastic. And the younger generation is amazing. They care about the world, not just what's happening in Myanmar, right? Which is fantastic. So I think if, if given a chance to rebuild, I think we can build a Myanmar that is so much stronger caring, truly caring, and and and and a force for a force for good. But we need to, I think, be very careful of not, not to fall back into, into, into what makes what feels comfortable.
Host 54:27
So one thread in all that, that I also want to pull and go back to is I'm really interested in some of your comments on Buddhism, both in terms of you referencing your own devout faith in Buddhism, and wanting to know a bit more, what kind of Buddhist, Burmese Buddhist you see yourself, and then also looking at given the monumental changes that are going on and the ways that people are approaching the faith and certainly the monastic and of course, as we know this, goes way beyond the bounds of Myanmar culture or Burmese history. Your Burmese Buddhism, we're going back to the historical Buddha himself, that there was a that brilliantly, really, he set up this reciprocal lay monastic system to be able to keep the San going and keep the teachings alive. And so there is so on one hand, as you talk about the you think it's absolutely a good thing, which I agree with you, that the mere fact of wearing a robe is there's not this blind obedience and faith to it and yet, and this is something that Buddhism is grappling with in the West, is, what does, what does a Buddhism look like, or a Buddhist tradition look like in the West? If monasticism is not a huge part of it, or should there try to be a way to integrate monasticism into western Sanghas and Western Buddhism. And, you know, again, we have to go back this. This is a core of what the founder of the faith instituted, was a core lay monastic relationship. And so there does, I would argue, personally, there does have to be some kind of powerful sectors of society going forward for the and we're looking more faith based, rather than the whole society or politics, even though it does relate to this. But so I'm just curious if you can describe your own how you would characterize your own experience in the faith, your beliefs, if you have a meditation practice, and then where you see this going and as we come out of this firefighting mode, what you see the future of where Buddhism might land in the country?
Thin Lei Win 56:27
So I feel like this crisis of faith is not just limited to Buddhism and not just limited to Burma. It's happening all over the world. So if you look at how people are grappling with what being a Catholic means, or Protestant means, right? The Church of England has had massive, you know, scandals just over the last couple of months. The Catholic church going on for a very long time. And I also know, just from, you know, friends and acquaintances who are Muslim, that they have, have their own questioning around like, you know, the Western public perception of what Islam is and the Islam that they know and practice, right? And I think that I feel like that's the same with Buddhism as well, both within Myanmar and around the world. To me, you know, the very to me, the like, if I were to break down Buddhism in the way that I understand, it is very much a personal, individual belief and practice that's so So so personal to you, right? But I know that not everybody thinks thinks that way, and and, and it's all just about trying to be, trying to be as good a person as you can be, despite all your flaws, despite all your prejudices, despite all the challenges that you face every single day, to take the easy route, I don't always succeed. In fact, I very often fail. But you know that that, to me, is the very basis of Buddhism, and I suspect that's what a lot of religious, you know, Christians and you know Jews and Muslim will also say, right? That that that to me, that's, that's my, my brain of Buddhism, right? So, yes, I think, you know, the, the monastic aspect, you know, I mean, in Burma, right, its own, like, what, two Gen, just maybe one or two generations ago, monasteries where the the place of education, right? They were the main places of education. And it's not just about learning, you know mathematics, it's also about learning to be a decent human being, right? And obviously you know that that has changed a lot, both for better and worse. So I think to me, personally, I have some qualms with both how a lot of people I know view Buddhism and also how a lot of the international community view Buddhism, right? So I think there is this rose tinted, unrealistic version. Of Buddhism that the Westerners have, which is why they were so shocked when we were Suu and Ma Ba and all that religious extremism broke out. Because they're like, oh, this. I didn't think this would have happened in Buddhism. And you're like, Have you not been paying attention to what's happening in Sri Lanka or, you know, because it is, I think, in any religion, it's still, it's still humans who are still propagating them, right? And therefore, you know, the human voi balls and weaknesses all come with it as well, internally, also, at least within the the community that I know I mean. So I grew up, you know, when I was young, almost every weekend, I would my sister and I would follow my mother to, sort of like, volunteer at a monastery, because, you know, and that's a that's a very, very well known, very rich monastery that had staff, you know, all the all the other, all the, all the all the frills as well, and we would just go and help in the kitchen, because that's merit making, right and and I remember seeing all these elderly ladies and gentlemen who would be taking, you know, the five precepts, And listening to the monk the sermon, like, oh my god, so religiously. And then, literally, immediately afterward, they would rush over and want to eat before noon, because they're going to fast, right? And then they would want to have like, they want to eat all the the best meat. They would also want to make sure that they have the ice cream dessert before noon, and they'll be like, no, no, we're important because we're going to fast. I couldn't really articulate it when I was quite young, but I just felt like there was a massive disconnect between those behaviors, right, right? So, so. So, I think the way that, the way that some people, I don't want to say a lot of people, or people, the way that some people, often, there are many that I know have been practicing Buddhism has also been flawed. And I think it's that combination of a flawed perception of what Buddhism is from the outside and the way we practice, which seems to be very much about rituals and form rather than substance, have contributed so much to that crisis of faith in Buddhism these days, right? And of course, when you have a religion or a group or a concept that you cannot question, then I think it's only natural that that also gives birth to to groups that abuse. Yeah, that that concept, right? And I think that's that combination that have made, made people now question Buddhism in Burma, that have made people become agnostic or atheist. I still so. I still see, I guess, what I'm trying to say is I still see a role that Buddhism can play such an important role, you know, in in rebuilding the country, in the country's future. But I think we really need to to reimagine as well, right, in how we practice it. Who, not who gets to practice it, but how we practice it, who practice it? What are the the what are the things that we like to see as being part of Buddhism? So, you know, like, for example, one thing that I find hypocritical in Buddhism is this massive gender discrimination.
Host 1:04:38
Sure. Yeah.
Thin Lei Win 1:04:41
Yeah. Like, if you're a woman, you're dirty, you cannot go in certain parts of the pagoda.
Host 1:04:48
Or even the lack of recognition of the ba COVID.
Thin Lei Win 1:04:50
Oh, yeah. So, you know, that's so that's from a very layman perspective, right? And I, and I S. Modern, educated woman, I find that hard.
Host 1:05:03
Yeah, right. It needs to reform in that way.
Thin Lei Win 1:05:09
Yeah, or, like, I remember when my grandfather was still alive, and now we do that. Now we do this after he passed away, so we've set up a little trust fund in their name. And any sureties we get, we donate, you know, in different parts of Myanmar and and that's not just at temples, but one thing that he used to do when he was around, and I used to follow him around, was to make sure that every every year, he would give a big donation to the nunnery, since the guy, yeah, because he's like, everybody forget the nuns, right?
Host 1:05:43
Yeah, our team just, it's funny, you say that just synchronicity. Our team just finished a big donation of hitting all these different Hills nunneries. So, yeah, yeah.
Thin Lei Win 1:05:52
And it's like, you know, how, how? How is it that we think they sacrifice? Because I think that the use of that what sacrifices, you know, perfectly encapsulates what both monks and nuns have done, right? So why do we think that their sacrifice is, in any way, shape or form, lesser
Host 1:06:10
For definition of merit? That's where it goes to, yeah.
Thin Lei Win 1:06:15
Right. So so I find I have serious, I guess serious difficulties with with that aspect of Buddhism, you know? So I think, yeah, I, you know, I, like I said, I still call myself buds. I practice it. I don't meditate as much as I should. What I do every day is recite the metta, you know, because, because that, to me, encapsulates Buddhism. It's just about loving kindness to everybody. You do that every day. Yeah, yeah. So that's, you know, that doesn't take very long, but that's just, but doing that, like, even if it's just a couple of minutes, just like, makes me, reminds me of, I guess, what's important.
Host 1:07:03
Like, how so?
Thin Lei Win 1:07:06
Because, well, it slows you down. You have to concentrate on saying this, the prayers. But also it's just about, yeah, it's, it is, it's, you know, there are a lot of different, you know, different prayers, right? About protecting oneself, about, yeah, being safe, about, you know, you know, like, like, let's say Tambo day for example, right? It's about like, you know, like, like, like, almost like, a protection from from dangers. But to me, though it's very outward.
Host 1:07:46
Yeah, right, right.
Thin Lei Win 1:07:48
It's of me giving my to everyone else, rather than wishing somebody would protect me, or somebody would give me something that to me, that that is what that is to me.
Host 1:08:03
Yeah, yeah. And it's also this sense of this, I mean, that kindness does become a protection. Because if the kindness and the love that you're exhibiting to it's just a way of being to those that you interact with, that then becomes kind of this, not, not to be too corny, but I think for those that have practice, it's very real. It does become this kind of love force field that, yeah, this bubble.
Thin Lei Win 1:08:24
It also just reminds me to be a nice person. So when I'm like, really, you know, like, cheese dog with whatever or whoever, it's like, like, calm down. Just, just say the prayer.
Host 1:08:37
Right? I think there's been an attempt at an argument that the there's the political and there's the monastic order, and these two things don't really relate to each other. One goes in one direction, one goes in the other, and then some. And there's this kind of fallacy and false thinking that I've come across that well, the monastic order will just keep doing the monastic order. They're just whatever political thing is in place, whether it's dictatorship or parliamentary democracy or king or even colonial, whatever form is taking place, the monastic order is just going to continue doing the same thing that they've always done because and it's going to inherently be a Buddhist country. And I think that the more we get into the granular and many of the guests that we've had on the program have really talked about the extent to which the politics and it's, I think it's, you kind of be an idiot to think this wouldn't be the case, but the extent to which the politics of the country, the leadership, the political system, the Civic thought and engagement, the the economy, etc, etc, how much that is influencing, to such large degrees, what's happening in the monasteries, what's being rewarded, What kinds of behaviors and kind of monks and kind of sermons are being rewarded? What kinds of education discussions are able to happen, what kinds of dynamic thinking and bringing in influences from other other other parts of the world, and other learnings that are being integrated and not closed, and you know, what kind of freedoms are being able to be a. Expressed and, you know, just time and again. I can't tell you how many conversations we've had with dedicated, devout, lifelong Buddhist monks who have explained the what, what they are able to do with their practice and with their teaching and with their freedoms and with their thought and their education, what they're able to do under one type of government versus under another kind.
Thin Lei Win 1:10:22
So yeah. And I think, yeah, like you said, it'd be a fallacy to think that, you know, one wouldn't bleed into each other, right? And particularly in a country like Myanmar, where vast majority are Buddhist, although I guess, you know, we can now question some, some some of that, and we can thank the military and some of the, some of the the monks, who, who, who supports the military for, for that, it's but I think it's one. Maybe I'm gonna No, not maybe. So I'm gonna sound really, I guess, naive and cliche here, but I'm going to do it anyway, because I think if you, if you call yourself a Buddhist, and you follow Buddha's teaching, you know, and it's in its essence, right? And when I say Buddha, we're talking about, right, the one who tried to alleviate other sufferings, because we've had other Buddhas before, but, but you know the special thing is, is that you know he wasn't. He didn't see the enlightenment as just for himself, right? It's for everybody else. And I guess you know, so if you just see, see, see that as an essence, and like helping, helping people, you know, then I don't see how, yes, the politics may be driven and linked to a specific religion, but that does not mean you undermine or, or or or force your beliefs and religion on others, right? I don't know if I'm making sense. But like for like that, I, of course, I know this, but that year of traveling in 2016 particularly minority regions, where people are or where either animus or Christians or just just, you know, any type of religion, I really felt uncomfortable with seeing so many temples and stupas everywhere in those places. And you know, people, of course, resent it because they feel like the BA Mars or the politic, the politics were imposing a religion on them, and I totally understand why. So, you know, yes, you can be driven by your faith, but I don't see why we should impose that on on on on on others in a way that just feels, that just feels unfair and excessive and and without giving them any agency, right like you would hear about, you know, we always hear about missionaries, right? And there is this slight tension between how the Buddhists view, you know, Western Christian missionaries, but we also have Buddhist missionaries, sure, yeah, right. And, you know. And I have seen people, you know, sort of rejoicing and celebrating when we've converted people. I don't feel comfortable with that, and I, and I, and I also find it hard to listen when I hear people saying, oh, oh, we really need to do something, because, if not, Buddhism will disappear from Myanmar. And I'm like, were you talking about? The vast majority of people are Buddhist, right? I think we should focus on getting like like, I think, I think we should focus on on on on getting it right, rather than fearing that something's going to, you know, like somebody or some other force is going to take that away from us. Because fear is a very useful incentive to start doing really shitty things to other people. True, yeah, yeah. So if we fear that our religion is under attack, we're gonna do everything in our power to make sure that didn't happen and feel justified in the process.
Host 1:15:16
Yeah, right.
Thin Lei Win 1:15:19
But if we flip it around and and think, you know, I'm confident in my faith, and I want to do the best, so that, you know, if somebody wants to join this faith, they can, but it's, it's, it's not driven by this, yeah, it's not, not, not, not driven by fear, not not driven by by by by being terrified that it's got to be taken away from you.
Host 1:15:53
Yeah, right, right. I want to shift the focus into another huge part of your work. And as you started this interview out. You referenced how there are these different hats that you're wearing, different things you're balancing, and of course, that's food security. And you referenced how you came to this field, partly from, I don't remember the exact words you used, but growing up in a poor agrarian society, and looking at what was happening around you and in this country and not really understanding it at first and wanting to make sense of it. And as it is with many of our passions and livelihoods, they come from a question, a confusion that we're trying to resolve, and suddenly we have a career where we spend the rest of our life trying to understand and resolve it. So tell us about what you were seeing in Burma growing up that was intriguing. You or making you question something, and then where that led you into your current career?
Thin Lei Win 1:16:45
Yeah, so, you know, I grew up in Rangoon, Yangon, you know, I'm a city girl, you know, in, you know, I grew up in the suburbs of Rangoon, you know, big, beautiful boulevards, green, whatever. So it's not like I, you know, it's not like I was very close to farming and agriculture. But of course, you can't get away from it, right? If you, if you are, if you if you're Burmese, if you're Myanmar, because there's so much, and this was particularly during, you know, like the waning days of, I guess, ne wins era, right? There was so much talk around farmers and farming and agriculture and and there was also this lionizing of of what farming means, right? And we always have this, again, very rose tinted visions of being a farmer and how, you know, we owe everything to farmers and how they are, the ones that gave us food, you know, for sustenance, for nutrition, for our health, for everything, and then to, then actually, to go into rural areas and see farming communities and realize how they are, possibly in the bottom rungs of the social ladder in terms of, you know, both social and economic development. And I'll be perfectly honest with you, I always wondered why, but I never really asked. You know, it's like, hang on. You know, we say we owe all our thanks to farming communities, but why are they so poor? You know? Why do they not have enough food? And, you know, I was too busy focusing on eating and enjoying the food rather than to, like, really, really dig into that question. But I remember, you know, since growing up, that there was that, like, hang on this, this doesn't make sense, you know, like there's, there's something that's not, not right here. And then, you know, I guess one thing that did really put light bulbs in my head was actually not that long ago, maybe 10 years ago, I'd been covering, you know, issues around food insecurity. So that's pretty much another word for hunger, or under under nutrition. Right by then, for quite a while, and I understand there's hunger in Myanmar, I already understand at that point, by that point in time, why, you know, farmers, despite the government saying how important they are. You know, government policies have made it so difficult for them to actually make a decent living. But I was still, I guess, looking at it from quite a shallow perspective, like, you know, okay, there's there's hunger because people are poor, or there's hunger because. Is, there's been a cyclone, there's been an earthquake, there's been floods, and people suddenly don't have, you know, access to food. And I was having an interview with the head of World Food Program in Myanmar at that time, soon after the elections, and we were talking about, you know, food insecurity and malnutrition in Burma, Myanmar and, you know. And, of course, another thing that we always like to talk about was how we're we used to be the rice bowl of Southeast Asia, right? And like, what's happened and, and, you know. And I was also talking to him about like, hang on a minute. Why do we still have such high levels of food insecurity and malnutrition when, yes, we're not back at the level that we were, but we're exporting food, so we obviously produce more than we need. We have a surplus. What's going on? And, you know, I guess two things that he said that really stuck with me was, one was like, yes, you have a surplus, but a lot of that is grain or, you know, tend to be rice and pulses and beans, not necessarily what we would call nutrient dense foods. So, you know, fruits and vegetables and animal source foods as well. And it's like the Burmese, you know, or people in Myanmar just eat a lot of rice and there's not a lot of nutrient in it. Then like, oh my god, yes, you're right, yeah. So that, you know, that explains why we have malnutrition levels that are just unacceptably high, you know? And, and he was also saying, having said that, you do have natural resources, you do have a lot of good, you know, locally produced food. You shouldn't be in this position. Oh, really. But a lot of it is, you know, if you look at where that pockets of hunger and malnutrition exists, a lot of them are in minority areas, and, and, and why is that? And it's like, Aha. So, you know, you can say, well, that's because of a lack of infrastructure. But, you know, I mean, the military junta had just spent so much money bidding all those dams and roads, and, you know, they love infrastructure, right? That's like, that big deal. Why haven't we done the basics of infrastructure to these minority areas?
Host 1:22:43
Sure. Yeah, right.
Thin Lei Win 1:22:46
So, you know, hunger, I guess that's when I truly realize hunger and undernutrition is not just the fact that there isn't enough food, but there are lots of other aspects to it. You know, is there food? Yes, but is there food where people need it? What's preventing them from having access to that food? Even if there is food, can they afford it? Yeah, if they can't afford it, why can't they afford it? If they can afford it, if there is access, but do they then know what constitutes a healthy diet, a diverse diet, and are all these things available to them in a consistent way over time? And I guess that's, you know, that's, that's the light bulb moment where I was like hunger and malnutrition in Myanmar is a political failure, and it's a conscious political failure.
Host 1:23:45
It's devastating.
Thin Lei Win 1:23:49
Yeah, you know, successive governments have just decided not to prioritize this. It doesn't have to be that way. And I guess that also extended to other aspects of food and in other parts of the world, like modern day, hunger and famine. If you look at like in the 80s, what's happened in Ethiopia, what is currently happening now in South Sudan, what's currently happening now in Gaza, yeah, food is there. Aid is there. It's the political will of both the international community and the national governments that is not there. And so I guess you know, that's how my experience and understanding of Myanmar informs how I see, you know, hunger and malnutrition and the inequalities in the food systems around the world as well.
Host 1:24:43
That's so we come back to this question of political Well, this has been a theme that we've touched on with multiple guests, not so much, on looking at food, looking at the role of the United Nations, of ASEAN Western countries, and more, the political decisions. And more, everyone kind of. Knowing what, what they an outcome they might like to see. But then there's that word again, the political well, not being there to really get it through. So you're talking about the existence of political well, and looking at food inequality systems and is and so you know when, when you're the word political Well, kind of it has this connotation of being like, well, everyone might like to do it, but then there's this cost, and so in some ways, it seems like you're describing something that's more a regrettable neglect or lack of focus than a targeted policy meant to punish a people. Is it? Would you say that that latter part is also included in some cases?
Thin Lei Win 1:25:44
Yes, oh, yeah, definitely. Because, you know, hunger has been used, and it's still being used as a very, very effective, potent political weapon, right? Because, once you've cut off people's substance, you could pretty much get them to do anything.
Host 1:26:08
These are the four cuts, right?
Thin Lei Win 1:26:10
Yeah, yeah. So you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's, it's hungry. People are also desperate people, right? So that means desperate in the sense that they'd be willing to fight for anybody because they're hungry, their families are hungry. But it also means, you know, it gives whoever is blocking that food and using that as a weapon and the upper hand right to set terms and conditions and policies. You know, we see that. You know we see that happening around the world where you know governments and you know rebel armies, or you know revolutionary forces, or whatever you want to call them, you know, blaming each other for why there is no food aid, or for blocking food aid, or for for for targeting food trucks, you know of them, instead of getting to the displaced populations, the people who need it most. So, yeah, I definitely think, you know, there is definitely an aspect of intentional, wanton disregard for people's lives, using Through, through, through the through, through the blocking of food aid.
Host 1:27:39
And when you look at Myanmar's recent history and you're describing it, it sounds like you're basically describing swaths of ethnic lands where and we know the other kinds of problems and dangers they faced, of conflict, of fighting, of fleeing, of displacement, of all the brutality and rape that goes along with the military's actions, and lack of schooling, lack of health care. I mean, the list just goes on and on and on. But it sounds like you're also describing kind of a chronic hunger that has happened in large swaths of the ethnic regions that and again, to just put an emphasis on this, you're you're describing a generational aspect to a food insecurity in some of these regions. Is that correct?
Thin Lei Win 1:28:25
Yes, I think that is a fair way of putting it. Obviously some areas fare much better than others.
Host 1:28:33
to ask about that the contrast which places are have particularly had a chronic and generational aspect of hunger.
Thin Lei Win 1:28:39
I mean, chin, chin state, Rakhine, those two have always had very high levels of of of food insecurity. Part of it, of course, is particularly with chin, the remote remoteness of it. But again, like I said, you know, it just feels like a lot of that is intentional neglect. Than just then, just a government that's overwhelmed, you know, with with with with other needs, because, you know, and I'm, I'm talking here now about, you know, from the from the 60s to until, you know, the early, you know, early, early 21st century, the data and the knowledge that I have pretty much only goes back, you know. So it probably may have always been difficult, but it just feels like during that specific period when, you know, there were different parts of Myanmar that developed, despite all the challenges, despite new winds policies, right? Yes, the whole country was almost like stuck in a time warp. But there were, you know, there were things that did happen. You know, there were some development in. It just felt like, of course, you know, you mentioned four cuts, right? That's the policy that he, he, you know, came up with to to get the minority, you know, regions and groups to sort of bow down to him, right? And it just feels like, yeah, those in those times that was, that was a political weapon that was used, you know, to keep populations, you know, hungry, at least if not, if not, if not starving, right? That's, yeah, that's, that's how I see it. Chin, definitely, you know, like I said, Rakhine, the more remote, the more difficult it is. There are parts of, I guess, you know, GA chin San, to some extent, I think, is, you know, less affected, was less affected. And the thing with chronic hunger, right? Is that, okay? So there are two different types of hunger. You've got acute hunger and chronic hunger. And acute hunger is when you have a sudden event, a sudden external event, war, natural disasters, disease outbreaks, that that's an external shock. You know that that threatens people's ability to eat, that tends to be, not always, tends to be sort of of a shorter time frame than chronic hunger and emergency food assistance, food aid and healthcare can remedy it. Yeah, chronic hunger is when it's a prolonged process, right? And it's much more long term, and that's also when, and of course, acute hunger can turn into chronic hunger if there's no support or no aid. But when chronic hunger, you know, affects people, and when that becomes chronic malnutrition, we're talking about an intergenerational impact, right? Because there's a lot of scientific studies that has shown that if you, particularly if you are stunted, right? So stunting is a is a sign of chronic malnutrition, and that's when you are shorter than what you should be. Yeah, there's you that affects almost every aspects of your life, in the sense that you know, like, there are studies that have shown that stunted children grew up to be stunt, you know, to finish. I think fewer years of high school has an impact on how much they actually the income that may they make once they start working and stunted girls become stunted young woman and tends to give birth to stunted children.
Host 1:33:16
Yeah, you're really painting a picture of when you mentioned the start of your learning of the darkness and the dysfunctional, the dysfunction of the country you came from. I mean, you're really painting a devastating picture of picking apart what exactly that darkness and devastation and dysfunction is.
Thin Lei Win 1:33:32
And and that chronic hunger and chronic malnutrition. You know you can it. It affects, of course, households, right? It affects a community. And then if you look at it larger, it affects a whole region, a whole state, a whole nation, and it has devastating impacts. If we look at it at a societal level, when I say devastating in the sense that these are people who are unable to reach their potentials through absolutely no fault of their own right, and that directly has an impact on a country's GDP, on economic development, you know. So, if nothing else, come on man out of self, pure self interest, make sure people are not hungry.
Host 1:34:20
Yeah, yeah, you would like to think so and so. You know, this is, as I mentioned, this is a devastating and dark portrait that you're painting of what chronic neglect, or even worse than neglect, an active tool for a political tool for disenfranchisement and and, and really disregard for an entire population or region or geography or peoples, as bad as this is, and knowing what this context is now looking at the last four years since the coup, given this backdrop of how things have never really been rosy, things that we're coming from a. A bad situation to something now worse. How much worse is the food insecurity that we're seeing, given that it's never really been that good for generations.
Thin Lei Win 1:35:09
Oh my gosh. I think the issue is that food insecurity is now so much more widespread. And how do we make sure that this acute food insecurity doesn't turn into chronic. And how acute is? It pretty acute. So I'm going to quote some statistics from a United Nations document that was published in in on the 12th of December. So super recent, right? And in terms of food security, they say there are 15 point 2 million people, one 5.2 million people who are in need. Now, what was the last figure in terms of population in Burma? 54 Yeah. So, you know we're talking about, we're talking about more than 25%.
Host 1:36:08
And put that in context for because having you on gives us the opportunity to look at not just what's happening in Myanmar, but contrast with what you've seen of other countries, other conflict situations, other problem areas, a percentage that high and that many numbers of millions that are in that dire state. What can you tell us about what that means in the context of other other studies and regions that you've looked at?
Thin Lei Win 1:36:36
I mean, it's, I was just going to say it's hard to compare, although I guess it's not. I mean, 15 point 2 million, that's, like I said, you know, that's, that's more than, more than 25% you know? So that's more than one in four people who needs some kind of food assistance. That's a lot. But if you look at populations in South Sudan, in Gaza, parts of Afghanistan, sometimes we're talking about, we're talking about two out of three, three out of four. We're talking about one, one and two. You know, that's not a negate what's happening in Myanmar or in other parts of the world. But it's just to underline the vast amounts of needs around the world when it comes to, you know, when it comes to this basic, right, the most basic elements of our life. I mean, I always say, you know, we can afford to give up a lot of the luxuries that we have, right, if you want to live sustainably, or if you want to do whatever, but food like that's the very basics of our survival, right? We need it too, so we cannot afford not to eat. And, you know, it's been hard to raise funding for Myanmar, for Myanmar humanitarian action, and there's a lot of a whole host of reasons for that, one of them being the fact that there's also just so many other parts of the world where there is, where is this need and and, you know, even in rich countries, you know, even in North America, even in Europe, there are pockets of population where there is chronic hunger, you know. So I think it's really important also to see hunger as not as a poor country rich country problem, and that's also why, for me, framing it as a political failure works right? Because how is it that a country like the United States or a country like the United Kingdom still have people relying on food banks, still have people who cannot afford to feed their families. That's just not acceptable, right?
Host 1:39:13
We're kind of, I have an anecdote and then a question I want to ask, and this might be going into some of your larger work on food systems, so feel free to go there, if it if it goes there. But the So, the anecdote is that some years ago, my mom had a garden where we live in the US, and as there's a particularly bountiful year, and they had great vegetables that came from it. They gave their vegetables to all their friends. They still had vegetables left over. Didn't know what to do with them, so they went to the local food bank, and they and they said, we have all these great garden fresh carrots and potatoes and onions and everything. We want to donate them to you. So when people come to the food bank, you have these raw vegetables, you can give them so that they have a little more food. And the person at the food bank said something I've never forgotten that's always stayed in my mind. Kind of, kind of, what, what the modern world has become, or at least the way I interpret it. She said, We, we've tried that before, and they don't know what to do with these vegetables. They don't know how to cook them, or what to do with them, and so they'll just go to waste. And what came to my mind is like, historically, you look at some of the dishes that have come to us, like, you know, shepherd's pie or gratin, or some, you could go on and name a bunch, that now can be kind of delicacies, or people put their flourishes on them, but they came about because they were basically, let's like it was a version of, let's find whatever we can that's growing around us. Let's throw it in a pot or an oven, or just mix it together, and let's try to make it taste good and and so, like it's been a historical fact that you you make use of what's Do you have a lot of potatoes? Do you have a lot of radishes? You know, what is it you have? And how could you eat? And how could you you make use of it? And my interpretation from hearing this anecdote was that because of fast food and processed and everything else that this has become the the affordable way to feed yourself, that somehow in America, there's been among some in that are poor and come from poorer backgrounds, there's been this loss of this historical ability to know how to make Use of the things around you, to put it together, to feed yourself, and so that to the extent that the failure reached such epic proportions that the food bank, I mean, just think of this, a food bank, was not able to accept a donation of garden fresh vegetables because the poor people who didn't have food did not know what to do with them.
Thin Lei Win 1:41:37
Yeah, I have an anecdote of my own as well, to add to yours. But I mean, there's all these, you know, these phrases that we use whenever we talk about the current state of our food systems and diets, is that, you know, we used to grow so many more varieties of food. Now, if I remember correctly, I think more than half of our calories come from I think three or four crops, right? And that that diets becoming so homogenized and less diverse is actually bad for everybody, yeah, bad in the sense that, now, you know, we haven't even brought in the whole topic of climate change, but climate change is affecting what we can grow, how we can grow, what nutrients they are. So, you know, in that kind of situation, if certain crops fail, then we're suddenly without, you know, a vast a chunk of our staple foods, right? But having those like, you know, homogenous diets and less diverse also means we're not getting the different vitamins and nutrients that we should be getting from different different groups, but it also allows for consolidate, concentration and consolidation of the market by a handful of companies, which is just bad for for everybody, right? But, and that is, that is, that is a tragedy, right? That is a tragedy that we no longer, like you said, have that indigenous knowledge and wisdom of of you know, what we eat, how we eat, and that also, you know, segue into, into the anecdote that I want to share with you. So maybe two summers ago, we were in Sacramento, so there was a group of us, about 10 or 11 of us, many I was the only journalist, but many are people working on climate change and conservation and food issues, and we were part of a State Department program to sort of understand and learn what the US is doing around climate and land use and so, so we were in, we started in DC, and then we sort of like traveled to the Midwest, and then to California. So we so that we can see federal, regional, state level decisions and governance around these, these topics. And we got to Sacramento in California, and we got to our hotel, and a group of us decided that they wanted to go to a supermarket to buy fresh fruits for breakfast. Yeah, they didn't want to cook breakfast. They just wanted, like, you know, bananas and apples and oranges. And I decided to stay put, because I was like, I've got some work. So I was like, message me when you are back. Then we'll go for dinner. So about six of them went, some of them stayed at the hotel. Like, two hours passed, and I was like, guys, what's going on? Are you coming back? And they're like, yeah, we're just it's been really hard finding fresh fruits and vegetables in Sacramento. And we were, you know, so. Yeah, when they came back, I was like, what happened? And they were like, you would not believe and because I was the journalist and I was the food system, I was always every meeting, I was like, so, you know, what's the what are you thinking about transforming food systems? You know, that was me constantly asking, like, intersection of climate and food. So they were like, you would not believe this. So they were like, they went down to the reception, asked them, like, Where can we get food? And they were, they were like, Oh yeah, there's a corner market. So they went to the corner. It was all processed foods. So it was like, snacks, snacks and sodas, you know? And they're like, No, that's we want fresh fruit, fresh, fresh, you know, stuff. And they're like, Oh, you have to. So they kept walking further and further and further until they probably got to, like, a proper, proper supermarket that was, like over an hour walk away. This is Sacramento. We're not talking about a rural area in the Midwest, right. And then they had to walk back and and, and I was, and so, like they were, they were shocked, you know, how is this possible in the US? And I was like, oh, have you heard of the term food desert, you know? And that's, you know, that's something people in the US are very familiar, right? When you don't have access to fresh, fresh, nutrient rich foods in your neighborhood. And a lot of that happens. A lot of that tend to be in neighborhoods, deprived neighborhoods, neighborhoods of color, right? Neighborhoods of immigrant. So there's a lot of actually, you know, race and ethnicity and discriminatory policy. There we go again. Around it, right? So that is, that is a political failure. How is it that, you know, a single mother without a car, and we know how public transport in the US, in many parts of the US is broken, has to rely on public transport to go somewhere where they can get fresh food. So it's not surprising that people, number one no longer knows how to use them or cook them, and just rely very much on ultra processed food of empty calories, because that is the easiest, most affordable things they could find.
Host 1:47:18
And then we move on to an argument that you've been making in some of your in some of the articles you've been written that that then there's a kind of blame the victim that goes on.
Thin Lei Win 1:47:29
Yes, oh my god, yeah, that's, that's one of my pet peeves, and pet topics as well. Like, there's this whole and I think that attitude or perception, whatever you want to call it, permeates, not just in terms of food, but I think all aspects of society, right?
Host 1:47:49
You mentioned big oil and tobacco.
Thin Lei Win 1:47:53
Like, smoking is a personal choice, right? Like, if you criticize fossil fuels. It's like, why are you still driving? Why are you still flying? Right if you end up eating Ultra processed foods, UPS what's you know, the industry, Poland's or if you don't eat the right way, if you don't buy organic, if you don't exercise the right way, it is your fault, which completely ignores how in balance the power is when it comes to big industries with billions and billions of dollars in marketing and advertising budgets, in their ability to have access to political decision makers that make these policies in in how they can cut corners and cut prices and put competitive competitors out of business, right? That that is such a myopic perspective, you know, but it works so well, right? Because then people start blaming themselves or each other, instead of of the groups that are making the money and taking us to the cleaners. Yeah, yeah, and, and, and, you know, and to see the bigger problems within the system that enables us, right?
Host 1:49:28
You've mentioned climate change a few times and where that goes into food systems. To what degree is climate change going to be affecting, or already affecting, Myanmar? Specifically.
Thin Lei Win 1:49:37
So Myanmar is extremely vulnerable to lots of different climate risks and hazards. Part of it is because it has a very long and exposed coastline. Scientists have said that, you know, scientists have estimated or predicted that we're going to see more. More frequent and more intense storms as a result of climate change. So there's big parts of Myanmar that are exposed to that. Now, if you look at even the land so you know what? About the land lock parts like the central Myanmar, they're also exposed, but to a different to a different risk, it's already extremely hot. Temperatures keep rising, right? It would become even hotter and hotter than I in fact, I think earlier this year, right? There was, I think, a part in central Myanmar that hit like an all time, right?
Host 1:50:38
I remember that, yeah,
Thin Lei Win 1:50:41
and heat has terrible impacts on our on our bodies, right? The ability to work during hot hours, like if you cannot sweat and cool yourself down, heat stroke is extremely dangerous, so it it really will affect how we live our lives, particularly those in the central dry zones. And Myanmar is also extremely vulnerable, just because it has so little adaptive capacity at this point. And what do I mean that by adaptive capacity is that you know, there just isn't enough funding or support to help people to either reduce things that will sort of slow down climate change, or to adapt to the impacts that's going to come with climate change, things like cutting down mangroves, cutting down Trees, deforestation, right? So, you know, one of the things that scientists are also expecting is, with temperature rises, we're expecting more drought. That means central dry zone, where we grow lots of bosses and beans, they're going to have a massive impact, because drought, drought kills plants, right? Farming and agriculture is so sensitive to any vagaries in weather that's going to have an impact, but we could also be experiencing shorter but more intense bursts of rainfall. So let's say, when we're talking about, let's say cutting trees, right? So there's just nothing to to to soak the water, no roots, to keep the fertile soil. So that burst of rain, instead of enriching the soil just becomes flesh floods then so to become extremely more destructive, worst of all worlds. Yeah, right, cutting down the mangroves storm surges, they protect storm surges, but if you don't have any more mangroves, I mean, some experts say that obviously Narges was a particularly intense storm, but that some of the impacts were worsened by the fact that that the mangroves had been denuded in the Delta, you know, because they've been cut down for firewood and for other for for for setting up shrimp farms, etc, you know. So, so it's, it's both the fact that we're exposed to to risk because of the geographical location, but also the lack of preparation and capacity and our own behavior, some of which is it's because of a lack of a choice, but some of it is just pure greed, right from The industry wanting to expand. You know, plantations or or expand the urban sprawl.
Host 1:53:47
And you're talking about all this in the context of an active conflict, obviously. So when we're talking about, I think you said 15 point 2 million people that that need food assistance, or when you're talking about the climate change that is already racking large parts of Myanmar and the population. Your these are enormous challenges in the best of times and the most stable of places. And Myanmar is far from those things. It's on the other end of the spectrum in terms of the dysfunction. And so just to paint the picture that you're not just describing how bleak some of these things are, but also the context in which there's, I guess, not to paint too awful a picture for our listeners, but to ask you with that, where do you being someone who cares so deeply About this country, and also being a rationalist and realistic about these challenges, do you have a sense of hope or optimism with this? Is there something you can cling to that's not all just doom and gloom
Thin Lei Win 1:54:52
when you're asking that question? Sort of many, many thoughts came to my mind, but two, two big things. That I now try to sort of live by as much as I possibly can. One is, I wouldn't even call it hope. One is just sheer, I guess, pig headedness and refusal to give up. Like, don't let the bastards grind you down. Yeah, like, like, and I see that both in Myanmar and in in my investigative work on food systems, it's just like, no matter how bad it is, or no matter how bad we think it is, no matter how we think we're losing, we cannot give up. Giving up means letting the bastards win. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's my motto, right? And so the other thing is, actually, you know, it's a real, it's a recent realization. It's, it's, it's from a long form story from an American magazine called noem. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that it's right, but it's spelled, N, O, E, M, a, and it's called it's time to give up hope for a better climate and get heroic. And it's a fascinating article, quite scathing of people that I truly admire and respect, but I find that the premise of that article, fascinating, and the writer, her name is Pamela Swanigan, was sort of like, you know, positing two viewpoints, one from this American bureaucrat called John Collier, the long hope, and Tolkien, who, of course, we know, From the Lord of the Rings, you know, the author called the long defeat. And you know, this American bureaucrat, I think was, was talking about the sort of like the long hope, talking about, you know, Native Americans, and how, you know, the the settlers have changed so much of it, and the hope is that the settlers will at some point learn to appreciate and follow some of the wisdom and footsteps of the Native Americans. That's the long hope. But she was saying that hope at this point is pretty much useless, and what we should be doing is following, you know, tokens this concept of the long defeat. So you're fighting what is, quote, unquote, a never ending and ultimately futile battle against the world destroyers, right? So that's like, how the how the elves, you know, know that their time is ending. You know, the age of Man is coming, and it is very likely that man's probably going to destroy each other and themselves, and probably Middle Earth as well. But they're still fighting it, because.
Host 1:57:53
What else can we do exactly?
Thin Lei Win 1:57:54
And you know, and this is I want to so I want to quote this particular, you know, paragraph says evoking heroism rather than hope, and courage rather than comfort are central to this response to, you know, this existential crisis about about Climate change. Again, I quote, so too, is involving people in a story instead of hack Turing them with information. And most importantly, we must take inspiration from a colder truth. We may not be able to prevent the end, but if we are willing to fight the long defeat, perhaps we can make a better one. UNQUOTE, yeah. So I read this a few months ago, and I'm and I'm now all for it. So I don't know, you know, I wish I could end this on a more life affirming note, but I guess that's, that's where I'm at.
Host 1:58:56
Well, I do want to end this on a more life affirming note with my last question, a reflection here, and that's, and that's to move in a related but different direction. It's, it's interesting how you have moved into this world of investigative reporting on food insecurity in a very kind of dark and concerning point. But on the other hand, you're also a foodie. You're someone that enjoys food everywhere. That Burmese food in particular, is doesn't just have a nostalgic effect of evoking past memories, but is also you see, as intrinsically connected to the culture, to food storytelling, to embodying this greater sense of what it means to be Myanmar and be in Myanmar. And so moving from looking at this really dark and disappointing aspect of food insecurity to the other side of food to what to food being this embodiment of a people of a culture of sharing. To reference your earlier words in our discussion how breaking bread, sharing rice, this is something that you're you're you could be forever changed by this experience with someone else and. And that food can also be this way to revisit a culture where, and this is especially pertinent for you because you you've written in so many of your essays, this sense that that you you can't really go home. You haven't been able to go home for a while because of the the dysfunction that has been ongoing a short time in the transition, yes, but after and before other political problems, societal problems that made it unsafe to be there. And so food was your bridge, and your connection back to a place that you couldn't go and that you carried with you as best as you can. So take it over for there in the sense of where, where you how you were foodie, what Myanmar food means to you, and how you bring storytelling, and again, this aspect of storytelling that we've talked about outside of news and investigative journalism, how storytelling fits into your fueling as a foodie.
Thin Lei Win 2:00:51
Oh, wow. I mean, I just think food is such a great medium to connect, you know, to a culture, to a person, to an issue, to a topic, I just think food, maybe, because I am a foodie, I just think it, it's everything. And, you know, I, I started out as a foodie, somebody who enjoys eating a lot and all sorts of food, and then I became interested in cooking when I was studying in the UK, because, partly because I was I was I was poor. I was a poor student, but partly also because I was like, there is no way I can subsist on baked beans and bread. I need my rice, you know? I need my salads and my curries. So now I see it, I guess, both as somebody who consumes food, but also as somebody who enjoys feeding other people. And that's a circle of life, isn't it? And, and, you know, I haven't lived back home for quite a long time, except for that, you know, two year period, 2015, 2016, but I still consider it home, and part of it is because whenever I think about Burma, Myanmar, there are two things that come to my mind, the people I love and the food that I love. You know? I mean, there are so many beautiful places in in Burma, but that's not what I think of, you know? I think I think about the meals I've enjoyed and and that's something I will carry with me wherever I go, wherever I end up, and cooking bomis Food is a way for me, and particularly cooking it for friends who are not. Burmese is a way for me to to stay connected and to spread, to spread, you know, a love for Burmese food because it's so underrated, it's much lesser known than its neighboring countries. I've met so many people me, I cannot count who said I love your country. It's beautiful. It has amazing people, but the food not so great. And I'm like, Well, that's because you haven't had actually a proper home cooked meal. I mean, that has changed. That has changed since about 2020, 2012 2013 people are now finally discovering it, but it is still, you know, such an underrated and I find food is a great medium to then talk about what's happening back home, right? Like, like I make, like, a staple that I always make is La petto, and that's also one of the first dishes I learned how to make, because it doesn't even involve cooking, right? You just mix things together, and then, depending on how you want it, I always put a lot of fish sauce, a lot of fresh garlic and a lot of chili and a bit of lime juice. And that's such a, like, people always, like, shocked at like, what is this very tasty but very strange, you know, food that I'm eating that is both, you know, salty and sour and spicy and crunchy at the same time. And it's such a perfect entry point to talk about the darker aspects, you know, but also to celebrate that, yes, you know, there's a lot of things that are wrong that's happening in the country, but also we have these amazing. You know stuff, yeah. So, you know,
Host 2:05:06
Is there a particular dish or or food or that in particular that you like to bring that evokes a certain memory?
Thin Lei Win 2:05:16
Lot? The problem is, there are, there are lots and lots of them. Give us a couple of them. Okay, so la petto is definitely one of my all time favorite dishes ever, and I love pretty much like different types of cuisine, but la petite will always be at the top of the list, just because it's so comforting and always reminds me of evenings or afternoons back home where we would just have a Massive like a you know, bowl of La petho and lots of different spoons, you know, and some like day all rice next to it, sit down and chat among cousins, family members, friends, acquaintances. So that is a very, very beautiful memory I have. And I also think it's such a great representation in some ways, of Burma, just because it's such a strange but fascinating dish, you know. So that's, that's what I usually use when I when I feed, you know, friends who are not Burmese. There's si jerk, Kyaw Suu, which is like a garlic oil noodles. It's more of a Chinese dish, and it's super simple to make, but I love it, because it always reminds me of me going to see my grandfather at his office, and him asking me, do I want to eat sea jet, and I always say yes. So it always reminds me of my grandfather. There's jet, which is like a very traditional, I guess, central Burmese dish made with fresh tomatoes, fermented fish. And in our version, lots of chili, super simple and quite a humble, you know, dish, but my dad, that's like one of one of his favorites, and it just reminds me of, yeah, of my dad, of my, you know, my of our family meals, two more dishes. One is this sounds funny. This is not Burmese dish, but it's just a wonderful memory. My mom used to make ham for my dad in this weird little gray contraption that looks like, you know, something that belongs on a spaceship. And because my dad loves ham, and she would make this like massive chunk of meat put like, dozens and dozens of cloves, put it in this little contraption, then just let it run for, I don't know, a day, a day and a half, two days, and every time you walk past it, you can smell the melting of fat and the cloves and that aroma of ham. So that's it's not Burmese. But again, you know, my mum doesn't really cook, so that's one of the few things that she makes. She makes desserts, and she makes that ham. So that ham really reminds me of mum. And the last one is nya Baye, which is what fish paste, fermented fish paste. It's seen as a poor man's dish, but my nanny, whose Karen, loves it, and I grew up eating it with her so fermented fish paste with water, lots of chili, lots of garlic, and then you eat it with either fresh or steamed vegetables, that's great.
Host 2:09:23
And just to throw one final question, because I realize this is looking at your your background, and mostly ba Mar cuisine and your growing up and what was special to you, but you've also traveled so far flung to all these remote places. And so is there any particular dish or ethnic cuisine or interesting kind of food that you want to give attention here as well.
Thin Lei Win 2:09:43
Oh, my God, there's a lot. So, you know, we had amazing Naga dishes when we were visiting Naga. They don't, they don't use oil, partly because they didn't have it before, right? So they just use whatever they have. So they have these, like, beautifully, like, pounded, um. Like meat and vegetables dishes that are, like, super tasty. And Naga peppers, they're like Sichuan peppers. And like somebody said that, yeah, you have to try our peppers. It dances on the tongue, and that's exactly what it is. So Naga peppers and Naga pounded dishes, they're amazing. The Kyaw rice wine is, oh my god, absolutely like out of this world. I love it. Kyaw also have wild figs. They're just amazing. So delicious. We had, as usual, all parts of San state is just so full of amazing food, and they're different, you know, different and different parts of parts of Shan.
Host 2:10:42
And the herbs there.
Thin Lei Win 2:10:45
Oh, my god, yeah. And the, of course, SHAN noodles. Everybody knows it. And the Shan tofu is too seriously, I will die on that hill. Shawn tofu is the best tofu in the world. You've got the you I had. We had an amazing fish dish in Kachin, freshly cooked for us while we were at indoor Ji lake. I still remember that and all the seafood that we ate into Nina II, oh, my god, yeah, it's Yeah. But the special, the real special ones, are the Naga dishes, the Karen the Kyaw rice wine, those I have a lot of you know dishes that I love from all parts of Myanmar, Rakhine, Moon, Karen, but yeah, I think, I think those two are truly special.
Host 2:11:50
Well, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today and for making yourself the story, for going in that direction, walking the walk there that was it was really wonderful and beautiful. It was so great to catch up with you.
Thin Lei Win 2:12:04
So I would just belabor one of the points that I made earlier. Don't let the boss just grind you down late. We can't give up. We can't give in, because if we do, they win.
Host 2:12:27
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