Transcript: Episode #315: The Devil You Know
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
00:00
Fighting fire with fire. Protesters in Yangon hurl Molotov cocktails had police prepared to shoot with live ammunition.
00:11
This group of brave protesters in Yangon was small, but their message was loud.
00:21
We will never be frightened with the highest daily death toll and dozens of protesters hurt. It was Myanmar's bloodiest day since the coup. Despair like this is all too common in Myanmar now another 50 family.
Host 00:37
I would like to caution listeners that the upcoming interview touches upon various topics that some listeners may find upsetting. In an effort to tell the real story of what is now happening in Myanmar, we encourage our guests to share as they feel comfortable doing, affirming that this platform can bear the weight of their story. As traumatic as the events have obviously been for our guests, they can even affect those of us listening from a distance as well. Every member of our team has shed a tear at some point or another in the process of bringing these interviews to you, and you might similarly find yourself affected by this story. If you feel some of this content may be upsetting, maybe consider listening in stages or whatever way that works. But please listen to bear witness to this GUEST story. You
Host 02:00
I am the Jay for this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast, we are talking to Jay, who is speaking to us from Australia, but as we will learn through this discussion, has found himself deeply involved in the Myanmar resistance to the military, and has been doing whatever he can in his capacity to be able to help those that are resisting the military, as we'll learn more. So Jay, thank you for making yourself available to have this conversation with us at inside Myanmar. Yeah, no
Jay 02:56
worries. There'll obviously be some things that I can't talk about just due to security and that sort of stuff, not only for myself, but retaliation with the people I work with down in Kearney State, I'm sure, junta intelligence sort of gather information from these podcasts and whatnot. But I'm quite young. I joined the Australian Army at a young age. When I was 18, actually, so quite young, I was qualified in medical training, so combat medical training, so combat trauma, which is a lot more different then, you know your usual public hospitals and that sort of stuff. COVID trauma has its own sort of set of rules and and that sort of stuff. But I did about five years in the Australian Army, then discharged and worked in the private security sector. Yeah, so I'm not sure whether you or your viewers know a country called Papua, New Guinea, but it's sort of off the coast of the northern coast of Australia. It's quite a small, small, little country, and they're quite poverty stricken and essentially a third world country. So actually, before the army, I went, went there with the charity group to to assist in any way we can, which was predominantly construction for remote villages. And after I got out of the army, I pretty much went there once every year, or tried to go there every year for about a month, I guess you'd call it philanthropy sort of stuff. But, yeah, we helped with with medical cases. Papua, New Guinea is actually one of the highest domestic violence rates in the world. So a lot of violence against women and that. Sort of stuff. And it's quite a corrupt, corrupt country, so pretty poor, but yeah, outside of the army in the I use that my army background and qualifications to sort of help down there.
Host 05:18
So yeah, right. So that was before Myanmar, that was the only real experience you had applying your training.
Jay 05:22
Yeah, correct. Happening, yeah, right.
Host 05:26
So, you know, one of the questions we often have when someone gets chooses to involve themselves, and the struggle going on in Myanmar, who doesn't have extensive connections to the country, as it sounds like you didn't, is the basic question of, How did Myanmar come on the radar for you, and then how did you decide to make this really extraordinary decision to be involved in the way that you were?
Jay 05:50
Yeah, good question. So better, I'd say, about a year ago now, just on social media, scrolling as everyone does before this i i wouldn't have been able to point out where Burma is on a map, so I think I was just on on Instagram or one of the other social media platforms, and just came across a real sort of highlighting the things going on over there and and then I Delve, delved a bit deeper, and then all of a sudden, I was just hooked. And, you know, everyone knows about what's happening in Ukraine, Gaza and that sort of stuff. I've got a few old army mates that are, that are in Ukraine, the Foreign Legion down there, helping out. And every everyone knows about what's going on over there, but absolutely no one knows what's going on in Burma. And I just got hooked and started learning as much as I can about it for about a year and and delving into the Khin community where I live, which is small, they're mostly refugees, that sort of stuff. And I just fell in love with the people similar to Papua New Guineans as well. They they'll just do anything for you and and it just shocked me about the atrocities going on over there, especially 2024 and they get pretty much zero help from anyone. And you know, you have America funding Ukraine and sending weapons and aid and that sort of stuff, and the other wars happening, but these people have absolutely nothing. And personally, if you would ask me, I think more atrocities and worse atrocities are being committed in Burma than any any war at the moment in such a, such a, you know, such a, right, high rate. But, um, yeah, it just literally came across on social media. And then I was just hooked and decided I needed to do something.
Host 07:51
So you describe seeing that real, and then that real drawing you in to want to learn more about a place than in your words you couldn't find out a map before, and then spending a year familiarizing yourself with the dynamics of exactly what's going on here, how the conflict is unfolding, trying to understand something that even people have put decades of their careers into this very complex story and still barely understanding it. So in that year of self study, what beyond the real. What was it that started to pull you in to this being a story that you wanted to care about, and then do more than care about, actually involve yourself in?
Jay 08:29
Yeah, yep. So good question. So I would, I would just say it's the it's the crimes against the children I have. I have a child myself, and we're extremely lucky to be in, to be in a Western country such as Australia or America and that sort of stuff, where my child can grow up relatively safe. And you know, you see that, you see the reels and the videos and the articles about children being being murdered, and all sorts of stuff. And that really, that really pulled on my heartstrings, and big time. So I said, I'd say that was the the driving factor of of me wanting to do something. And within that year, I I tried donating to a few orphanages, orphanages as well, that the war in Burma has left kids in orphanages in North sorry, in orphanages in Thailand. But, you know, sending money is all well and good, and it helps a lot, and I'm sure they're very grateful. I wanted to to take it a step further, you know, so.
Host 09:43
Right? And we should mention, I've just been working on some documents myself, and just to give some numbers for listeners to understand the context of what you're saying, I think recent numbers I've seen is that there's 3.4 million that are displaced. 40% of those are children. Just a staggering. Statistic. You look at the food insecurity that's taking place, and how many children are don't have the percentages of hand with that, but the numbers of kids that are now growing up without proper food, pregnant mothers who also don't have proper food, how that's stunting growth and development, and then, to say nothing of education and how going back since the time of COVID through now, just the assault that schools have been under. I mean, schools have literally been bombed, that children have literally died in their classrooms from military forces bombing them or assaulting them, or using them as staging grounds. And so the context of the real assault on the nation's youth that their own military has launched, you know, is really just staggering and beyond the pill.
Jay 10:50
It's terrible, absolutely terrible.
Host 10:54
Right? So you then mention how, beyond the self study, you then start to become familiar with the Burmese and, in this case, the Karenni that are in your neighborhood. And you know, we've it's interesting because we've spoken on the other side of this. We've spoken to any number of ethnics in ethnic minorities in Myanmar who have resettled in other countries and have referenced how hard it is for them to express their identity to as kind of a third culture kid to their host community that people barely know Burma on the map, let alone Karenni or chin or Karen or something like that. But it sounds like in pretty short order, you were able to make to have some understanding of this and to reach out not just to the BA Mar diaspora, but specifically to the Karenni diaspora. So I wonder how that happened. And also, if there is, I'm not aware of this, if there is a sizable Karenni diaspora in where you're located in Australia.
Jay 11:52
Yes, so I suppose the way I got onto them is and you're right there. They're almost a million different ethnic tribes in Burma and that sort of stuff. And I guess the Karenni is probably one of the biggest in Australia, or where I am in the particular part of Australia, so that's how I got on to him. And the way I did was just as I'm pretty sure, I just Googled Karenni. Karenni sort of sort of society near me, and there turned out to be a charity that they get together, and they actually make pretty good documentaries and movies as a way to fundraise, fundraise. So I just shot off a shot off an email saying, Hey, I'd like to meet you guys and that sort of stuff and be a part of the community. I know what's going on over there. And, and, yeah, just trying to show my support. And then, um, yeah, it was just, uh, just, they welcomed me with open arms and, and I think they really, not only in Australia, but when I was over there, they really appreciate, you know, a non Burmese person, sort of showing interest like that, which breaks my heart. I mean, everyone should be interested in it. And so, yeah, just started talking to him, and then decided that, hey, look, I have a particular set of qualifications being a combat medic and stuff, so I'd love to go over there and help us, if you had me, and then, long story short, got an invite and made my way over there.
Host 13:35
So wow, that's, that's quite amazing. I mean, as you're as you're making. It's quite amazing from both sides, really. I mean, the trust on their side for their connection and trust in your integrity. But then on your side, the real I mean, this is, this is not something without danger, and real danger. And so from your side, talk about, and you mentioned having a child of your own, talk about the process you had to go through of now stepping up your involvement to actually risking your own safety to be able to be on the side of this battle.
Jay 14:11
Yes, so obviously I need finances. So it took me a while just to save up in the money for everything that I would need to go over there and self sustain. Now, I didn't want to ask him for money and that sort of stuff. I mean, they have enough going on that sort of stuff. But, yeah, I suppose, I suppose danger wise, you know, there's always a risk. You know, I'm, I'm not Burmese whatsoever. I don't speak the language and that sort of stuff but.
Host 14:42
And had you, had you ever been anywhere in Southeast Asia before?
Jay 14:46
No, not even for a holiday. So haven't been there at all. So first time with everything.
Host 14:52
Uh huh. So talk about how you prepared for that trip, both physically in whatever way you had to. Prepare your body and what you were bringing, and then also mentally and emotionally.
Jay 15:04
Yes, so, you know, being from being from the military, although was was quite a while ago, I did sort of maintain a certain amount of fitness that you do need in in sort of combat areas, whether you're just a medic, observer or and that sort of stuff. But, um, yeah, nothing. That's nothing prepared me for how, how mountainous mountain and Kearney State was. But yeah, just on a lot of physical training, sort of pack marching, we call it in the army, just putting on your pack that you're living out of and and walking up hills and hiking and that sort of stuff. So, yeah, always maintain a pretty good level of fitness. And I did know that, you know, I didn't want to be a liability when I got over there as well. I didn't want them to have to slow down for me or carry my belongings, which I seen happen in Papua, New Guinea and that sort of stuff. So, yeah, just wanted to hold my own. And, yeah.
Host 16:06
Right, so that was the physical way that you prepared yourself to be able to take a trip of this undertaking. What about emotional?
Jay 16:16
I didn't really give much thought of it. I mean, obviously it's a very dangerous place, and being in the Army for quite a number of years sort of mentally prepares you for that sort of stuff. And you know, when I got back people like, you know, you don't really know these people, and you're risking your life for them and stuff. But, I mean, as a as a human, I can't really sit back and watch these kids being being killed like that. So, yeah, just needed to do something. So, yeah, I guess the the number of years I spent in the army mentally prepared me for it really.
Host 16:58
Right. And you mentioned how when you came in contact with the Karenni community there, just how much they they blew you away with their, their the way that you engage with them and their, their values and personality. Can you describe a bit more of what that was that really impressed you?
Jay 17:15
Yeah, so I guess, for example, I don't know what I was expecting. Sort of me going to this fundraiser slash movie, which was at a university that they hide out the cinema sort of thing. I really didn't know what I was expecting, whether I was going to see other non Burmese people there and that sort of stuff. There must have been a few 100 there for the premiere, for the screening, but I was pretty sure I was the only non Burmese person there. And they're a bit hesitant at the start, and that goes for when I was actually in the country as well. But once they realize your intentions, they just they came and gave me food like they didn't even know me. And that goes in in the country and in my home country as well. And you just get the the vibe that these people would do anything for you, really.
Host 18:11
So it strikes me that you as an Australian, are going into this conflict zone to help these people fighting for their human rights, their democracy, to fighting to stop, to resist their children from being murdered. I mean, this is you can't get much more severe than this, and you are doing this as an individual Australian. And it begs the question of, what is the larger apparatus of the country and the government of Australia doing to to to engage on the side of the forces of democracy. And so as you found yourself getting more involved in this crisis, I'm sure that you were also, you also started to look at what your government was doing in relation to it. And so what did you find there?
Jay 18:56
Yeah, so one of the first things I'd done, really, was I wanted to know what the world is doing, you know, because it's just so crazy that surely, surely, some countries are doing something about it. Unfortunately, it's not what I expected. For example, I know Australia is one of five, I believe in 20 January, 2024, that introduce financial sanctions against the junta. Which, which, you know, which, I'm sure helps, but it's, it's, it's nowhere near enough that you know that they need to be doing. But I suppose, just to start, but, yeah, just sanctions. I believe Australia has introduced.
Host 19:52
Right, so going now moving into your journey of flying to Southeast Asia and. Eventually finding yourself in Khin. I don't want to ask any questions here, because I understand there's a confidentiality of how exactly you got to where you're going. So just as a to whatever degree you feel comfortable and safe sharing about the nature of that journey.
Jay 20:17
Yes, so I won't dive too deep into the country that I initially had to go to, but, yeah, just, just took a flight, met up with my translator, so I was in contact with him. I was in contact with him for a while before I actually, actually left and pulled the trigger on it. And yeah, so, So, long story short, I met up with him outside of Burma, and I essentially smuggled myself in into Burma.
Host 20:53
So, and what was that experience, life? You mentioned you've never been to Southeast Asia, even on holiday. So what was striking you about that?
Jay 20:59
Yes, so, so I did give myself a few days just to, just to stage, stage, everything. And I think it was my 30th birthday then as well. So, so, yeah, I suppose one of my biggest worries was, you know, getting into the country, you know, I very much do not want to get caught by the junta. I know they would do terrible things to me if they did. Did get the chance, as well as any other borderline countries as well, I understood that I was taking a risk for my own personal security, as well as the people that are helping me as well. Although it's, it's, it's black and white for an absolute good cause. You know, there are risk, risk involved as well. And, and it was just a matter of me weighing those risks up. And, and, yeah, went ahead with it.
Host 22:04
And so you managed to make a border crossing somewhere. You with your interpreter, and then presumably you meet up with the krani forces. I imagine.
Jay 22:13
Yeah, exactly. So, you know, it was very, it was very tactical. The border crossing. Not going to go too much into it, but, you know, had to be night time and that sort of stuff. And had to take certain precautions, you know, covering my skin and that sort of stuff. Because, as you can imagine, I stand out quite a lot over there. But it was a success. And cross cross the border. And actually, about 30 minutes of me crossing to the border, We got mortared three mortared three mortars. They landed quite, quite a distance away from us, most likely 81 millimeter mortars. But, yeah, that was a bit of a bit of an awakening, so had to just.
Host 23:08
Yeah, and you had never been in conflict before. Correct, correct, yes, yeah. So that was, I mean, you're trained as a medic, you've been in difficult situations, but those difficult situations before this have not included conflict. So what would that like?
Jay 23:24
Yeah, well, that's right, um, I sort of, I guess, you know, as cheesy as it sounds, and you hear it on movies and that sort of stuff. I mean, your training does, does sort of kick in when, when it comes down to it, you know, when, when it comes down to being watered, there's not much you can do about it, except for, you know, cover, covering, concealment. But yeah, later on down in my trip, the combat sort of situations would would arise. But yeah, I'm sure we'll get into that later on. But yeah, I suppose all the years of training paid off and remained cool headed.
Host 24:07
And yeah, it also strikes me as you're saying this. You're talking about how the training kicks in. And of course, one has to recall that these millions of citizens and children that are under assault have had no such training, and the traumas are going through must just be unimaginable.
Jay 24:22
Yeah, like, you know, I'm a, I'm a grown man with with Western soldiering experiences and being mortared. And, you know, as you said, there's, there's eight year old kids, eight year old boys and girls, newborn babies and mothers holding their children being mortared. So that's, something to really think about. So, you know, I'm scared, but imagine the five year old that was, that was being morted as well.
Host 24:49
So, and what, what did you see of their reaction when you were in those combat situations?
Jay 24:54
It's just another day for them, really, it's just, it's just another day and, and that's sad. No. They shouldn't live like that at all. And it was a time at the end of my trip where we unfortunately hit the anti tank mine and lost three, three men. We had the funeral. Should I'll dive, dive into it deeper later on. But you know, there was 500 people plus at this funeral, was huge funeral, right on the border between Burma and its neighboring country. And I remember everyone looking up, and there was a, there was a Burmese Scout playing, you know, checking out the checking out the funeral and and it wasn't even in Burmese airspace as well. So it completely violated that law, which, unfortunately, the neighboring country, I guess, sort of puts up with and plays a bit of both sides of things. But, um, but yeah, seeing the kids and the mothers grab their children at the funeral and run away because, because of Burmese, scout plane is flying over. And usually, after a scout plane becomes a comes a jet or a MiG, Russian supplied jet. Yeah. Just sucked seeing him like that.
Host 26:20
So this is going on four years that they've been facing these air strikes and this terror from above I can't even imagine.
Jay 26:26
Yeah, terrible.
Host 26:29
So moving on with your story. We left off where you you're getting bordered just as you're crossing the border. Tell us what happens next.
Jay 26:39
Yeah. So there's only three rounds that junta fired. Fortunately, they stopped and didn't bracket us too, too well. The year that was literally, they were literally about 30 minutes into me being in the country. This happened while we were sort of waiting for our ride into into the front line, at their, at their sort of little staging area, as well as their, their medical facility. And I say medical facility it was, it was pretty much just a heart with an oxygen tank. And I remember just sitting there, just waiting for the ride and just looking at this hut and thinking, I've never seen anything like that, you know, being in, being in Australia, or, you know, another western country, whether it's a hospital or a clinic, it's not like this. It's, it's, yeah, it's terrible the way they have to do things. And I remember talking to the medic. She was sort of the head medic. She was a sort of a middle aged lady, very nice lady. She spoke pretty good English. She sort of ran the medical facility and the medics down there. And I remember talking to her, and she said, this is this is all we got. Like she was. She was quite proud of her oxygen tank in the corner there. And I just thought that this shouldn't be like this. Yeah.
Host 28:15
And so as you start to settle in there and you make your introductions, what what is it? What role are you starting to take on during your stay?
Jay 28:24
Yes, so, so I was always going to go there, sort of as a combat medic. My first time there, discussed with the khinni people and khinin government. Was just getting a feel of things and observing. And then when I did needed to to act, or they needed any help, or someone around me, I would jump in and give them that help. And later on in my trip, that's I sort of had to do that quite a few times. So yeah, just Yeah, didn't really see see any injured persons, whether it be any army soldiers or currently civilians, for the first few days that yeah.
Host 29:12
and what did you observe up close on the ground about how this conflict is playing out? Because this is something that you're following online and through the news as much as you can. Being on the ground must have given you a different perception.
Jay 29:25
Yeah, I suppose I was looking at it very deeply and pretty much every day, news articles, documentaries, every documentary that came out from a Western media I would jump on and and watch pretty much straight away, but um, I suppose boots on the ground, I would say it's what I expected when I first initially got there. But the then the last week we were there. It was, as, you know, and some of the viewers know by the photos posted on your Instagram, was when the one of the highlights is run over an anti tank mine. That's, you know, I wasn't expecting something that that sort of sneaky, if you will. Although, you know, we all know junta love to play in my minds and that sort of stuff, but for them to actually get get that deep into Kearney State sort of blew my mind a little bit. But yeah, overall, I'd say it was, it was what I expected. Some things weren't something. Some things weren't, weren't, I guess, like the the environment that they're living in, and little things like these, these soldiers don't get paid, and and things like that. So a few things blew me away a little bit and shocked me.
Host 31:07
But yeah, what were some of those things?
Jay 31:11
I guess I have to think about it. How corrupt the Burmese government really are. You hear things on news, on the news, but then talking to the Burmese people, my translator, for example, was telling me, you know, my online sort of, he owns his own telecommunications company and gives his own SIM cards out, you know, and try and forces the population to buy him SIM cards. And he's assigned, he's, his children certain duties that essentially just, are just money money pigs, you know, they're just, they're just getting money from the people. What else, I guess, China's involvement in that sort of stuff. And, you know, just talking to each individual, people person, and hearing their stories. I remember one girl, this was in a refugee camp, which is quite hard living. There's about 20,000 Kurin refugees in this camp. And I remember talking to her, or they, they introduced me to her, and she's missing both her legs. She would have been about 18 when I talked to her, but she told me the story through my translator, that she was at hospital, working at a hospital, and dream to bomb the hospital, and she lost, lost both her legs, and she was, she was 16 at the time, yeah, so those things shocked me. You know, you see it on, you see it on documentaries and that sort of stuff, and you can easily pay it off. But when, when the proof is in front of you? Yeah, it's confronting.
Host 32:52
When, when, when the proof is in front of you, when you're talking to someone like that, what are the feelings that evokes in you? Is it rage or horror, or sadness or helplessness? What is, what is the feeling when you're in front of some someone whose life is ahead of them and just has faced this unfair, terrible, senseless act?
Jay 33:10
Yeah, so, as cheesy as it sounds, you just feel absolutely lucky that, you know, I get to, I have a passport, and I get to go on a plane, come back to Australia into a beautiful house, and, you know, my child's safe and I'm safe and I'm not going to get bombed in the hospital. I just felt lucky and and it's not fair, like, Why do I get to come home to all that? But you know this, this poor girl was 16 years old, and her own government dropped a bomb on her and blew her legs off at a hospital. Um, yeah, it's just not fair. And then, yeah, you follow up emotions rage, yeah, you just, it's just, especially in 2024 I mean, it's just, it's unacceptable, and I wish the world would do more, but I know the junta are on the ropes a little bit, so fingers crossed, given a few years, you know, they'll have more freedom. But yeah,
Host 34:11
and these individuals that you're speaking to that have been harmed, how would you characterize their attitude having lived through these this pain and suffering and loss that that that they've come out of.
Jay 34:24
Yeah, so I would personally say that these people are the most hopeful and joyful, you know, race I've ever come across. They have so much hope. You know, pretty much all of them said to me, I want to come to Australia one day or or, these are my plans, you know. And, and you know, no matter what's happened to their body or their mind or their family, that are their plans, they haven't given up. These people will never give. Up. I mean, look at the look at the resistance. It's, um, they're not getting funding. I mean, initially, at the start, they were using homemade, homemade weapons and slingshots sort of thing. So these people don't give up, and they're, they're absolutely warriors.
Host 35:15
Now, one of the things that we've covered in looking at the shape of resistance and speaking to others who've gone into the country and embedded or supported in different ways, is, is, is how these different resistance groups are coming together. And that could mean, on one hand, the Karenni and the other ethnic groups that are fighting their own fight. And I don't know to what degree you saw kind of outside of the Karenni community, how they were, they were aligning or communicating with with other ethnicities, and it could also mean within the Karenni themselves, because every ethnic group also has their own local factions and and and divisions that are, and units that are, are sometimes aligned and sometimes not. And so as a you know, I understand you're a foreigner. It's your first time here. You don't speak the language, but were you able to gain some kind of insight or sense into this essential question that everyone is asking is, to what degree is there alignment and harmony, and to what degree is there tension between some of these different anti junta groups?
Jay 36:18
Yes, so I am. I wasn't fortunate enough to sort of go outside Kearney State. My whole trip there. I was pretty much just with the Kearney Army. But, you know, talking to them and talking to my interpreter and other English speakers for quite a while, you do get a sense that that there is a bit of friction within the communities, coronavi, K and df and that sort of stuff. But I suppose they, they, they're all especially the leadership. They're all aware that of the fact that they're going to need each other to take to take this country back, which is a good thing. And I suppose they could be working together more to become more of an effective fighting force, but I think it's, it's quite an achievement that they're working together at this rate that they are regardless. So, yeah, you just get to feel that there is a bit of friction. Well, personally, that's that's what I felt. But they are working together towards a towards a common goal. And yeah.
Host 37:37
Right. And another common question that we've covered in these types of interviews is the question of control, and what does it mean to control a territory, control a land, to have it contested, to have to look at local governance and security structures when a land is so called liberated, and that that that term needs a lot of unpacking, as we've done on past interviews, but for your time in the krani territories. I don't know to what degree you were traveling and to what degree these were contested or or on the front lines, or being nominally controlled by one side of the other. What can you talk about, kind of this question of who's actually holding, administering control of different land territories?
Jay 38:20
Yeah, so I didn't travel around that much. The front line I was in was quite small and secluded, but I suppose, to answer your question, Khin is one of the, one of the fortunate states I believe, that has essentially remained on penetrated by any any outside, hostile forces. So they, they take quite, quite a lot of pride in that which they should. You know, the civil wars being going on for almost 75 years, and they still remained pretty, pretty independent and and you know they would, my personal, personal view is they would just like to keep it that way, just run their own things and without fear of being murdered and genocided essentially.
Host 39:15
And were you able to visit any of the IDP camps? And if so, what was your reaction there?
Jay 39:21
Yeah, so I did visit one on a in a neighboring country to Burma, it was 20,000 strong. And in this particular country there were about 17 IDP camps, slash refugee camps. Only went to the one, and this one was 20,000 strong. Which is, which is crazy. 20,000 20,000 is a lot of people, Westerners, weren't in there, weren't allowed in there. But I'm actually getting there, and the living conditions are terrible, absolutely terrible. I visited. A few schools. It's it's hard. It's just hard for them. And yeah, the living conditions terrible. I know the UN does sort of help out this refugee camp I was in particularly but they could be doing a lot more, because the way they're living is, is horrendous but, but like I was saying before, they they still have hope, like these kids are still running around happy, yeah, it's horrendous living situation. Where do you think this hope comes from? I think it comes down to their religious faith, partly, majority of Khin people are Christians, and they very much keep their faith, which helps them and which is a good thing. My personal view, other than that, I don't know. It's hard to say. I don't know. I mean, these people have been, have been kicked around so much. I don't know where they get it. Like us, Western people, we, if we were put through anything like that, we wouldn't we? Yeah, we wouldn't last or or be as vibrant as these people are. I don't know where they get it. It just worries really, I think?
Host 41:17
Yeah, I mean, in a Western country, we have a spot of traffic, or a power outage or something like that, and everyone's losing their mind and.
Jay 41:25
Well, that's it. Yeah, I remember. I remember getting back, getting back from Burma, and like these little inconveniences that inconvenience us mean absolutely nothing compared to what these people have to go through. I remember I got back and I was driving from the airport, and my Uber was late, and my Uber was late, or they canceled on me, I can't really remember, and I was just thinking, Oh, what a pain in the ass. But, and then I thought, How lucky am I to be able to call an Uber to go to a house and not not just sleep on the ground in the jungle trying to run away from people that are trying to shoot me? You know? Yeah, it's crazy. And I just wish, I just wish us Western people would would think like that, but unless it's in front of you, society doesn't really care, I think so.
Host 42:26
So do you feel personally, like you've been changed in some way since coming back from a trip like this?
Jay 42:30
Yeah, absolutely. I think my work is is absolutely not finished helping these people I'm trying to set up a charity that essentially is going to fund medical equipment for these people. You know, when we did hit the mine, it really, it really shocked me how little medical equipment we had. I mean, we only had two tourniquets. And, you know, I suppose it was lucky that that only one person got his leg blown off, because both tourniquets were used on him to stop the bleeding. You know, any more, anyone else lost their leg? You know that they would just bled out, or we had to, we would have Jimmy Reek a tourniquet and tourniquets I can go and buy one in Australia for 20 bucks, you know, somewhere, or $20 somewhere and and it's just something that small that we can give that's really going to save lives at the end of the day.
Host 43:30
So you would reference before how your first few weeks there followed some pattern, but then the last week was really an outlier, and we wanted to come back to that later. So tell us about what happened that was, that was different, that that week, that stood out from her, your initial few weeks in the country.
Jay 43:50
Yes, so, so, I suppose there was, there was quite a lot of combat, you know, there is a, there are trench systems and that sort of stuff. So firing back and forth, you know, the the threat of being bombed via Russian supply jets. That happened quite a bit, but the last week, sort of a few things happened all in one, I remember we were on a defensive position, sort of in trenches in kerani state, on this, on this, quite a large feature, slash mountain, and, about 2.4 kilometers away was one of the junta, sort of forward ops observation bases on an even bigger hilltop. They were sort of dug in pretty well. I did see satellite photos of of their setup. And there aren't. There aren't many, many junta bases left in Korean state. But the ones that are there, you can tell they're they're still there for a reason. They're quite impenetrable. Their defense is a very, very good they took their time. But anyway, so we're at 2.42 Ks away from this particular one. And about a week, week prior to that, we heard them try and run through a village. Luckily, the 10 people that were there, sort of an IDP village, they they managed to get out in time, but when they did get back to their sort of temporary homes, they were burnt and that sort of stuff. But they were so fast forward they were getting their choppers in TO DO RE supplies. So re suppliers with, you know, weapons, mainly mortars and artillery, indirect sort of ammunition, as well as food, they sort of drop it in, as well as fresh troops as well. So So what has happened was, when they were flying in, they spotted an IDP camp, and there was about eight people, and we think they were trying to flee from Corinne state towards the refugee camp in the neighboring country. And so we think they spotted them as the fresh troops were getting floating to the base, and we were just sitting on the on the defensive position, I started hurting sporadic gunfire, so we had a bit of an idea what was going on. And for me, when contacts did happen, it was sort of difficult, because of the language barrier, to get information and that sort of stuff. But my interpreter said he thinks that they're, they're attacking the IDPs. So we packed up, or we sent the element about half as packed up, because we were the closest force there to go and to go there as fast we could. You know, took us with the terrain in Burma. I mean, 100 meters will take you about 20 minutes to get through, given the how dense the jungle is and and how high all the mountains are. So took us quite a while to get there and to actually find them, but we ended we did end up finding him, but unfortunately, we're too late. And I remember seeing, seeing sort of these half burned bodies. You know, it's the stench of it was still around, and the smoke was still there, and there was, you can make out that there was a little boy, I'd probably say maybe anywhere from five to 1010. Years old. I remember he was wearing a Spider Man jumper or shirt, sorry, and they were all just piled up. They've been shot. The shell casings is still there, and that sort of stuff. And that's what we're hearing. We're on defensive position. They attempted to try and burn the bodies, but, yeah, it didn't do a very good job. I know they attempt to burn the evidence of all the atrocities they do. So these things can't be documented. We got there just in time to see this, and yeah, there was about three kids that they that they murdered. So yeah, we tried, we tried the the Tun, tried finding them, but they were, they were already back in their in their FOB, before we could do anything. So yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, that was hard hitting, and that really shows, like I was saying before. You'll see it on the news, you'll see it on on reels and social media and that sort of stuff. But, you know, you know, it's not a lie when it's right in front of you. So, yeah.
Host 48:55
It's so it's so horrific. Yeah, it's, um, you know. And I think for those that are listening that maybe haven't tuned into this conflict so extensively, I think to ask the obvious question that would be burning on their mind, why? Why in the world would the soldiers be doing this? Is it? Is it some sadistic violence? Is it wanting to terrorize the population, the submission is it just because they're trained to be a hammer and everything's a nail. Or what I mean, there is no, I want to preface this by saying there is no good reason or any rationale that could ever be explained that would make sense as to why they would. They would. They would take target practice on, you know, fleeing children and civilians that are just trying to be safe. There's nothing that can say that can explain this, but I think it does beg the question for those that aren't so familiar with the brutality of this military as to what what objective they would have, what incentive they would have. Why they would want to do this?
Jay 50:02
Yeah, so and I, and as soon as we got there and I saw it all, and we made sure everything was secure, that's one of the first things I asked my interpreter. I said, I said, Why? Why did they do it? And I think it's, it's all the above, you just said, you know, you know, you ask yourself, why did the Nazis do what they done in World War One tour, the tour the Jews? And, you know, a lot of it is just following orders or just being brainwashed and that sort of stuff. And he said, it might have been that they needed food, because I know the Burmese army Don't, don't take care of their own soldiers. A lot of them die of starvation. So it could have been a, could have been them just going and trying to steal food and just executing the people that they just killed. It might have been they were on opium. The soldiers were high on opium. I think it's all of it. It might have been that they were Christian, and they ordered to kill Christians. And it, I think it's just pure evil. And, yeah, it's it's evil.
Host 51:24
And what were you able to observe about the response of those Karenni that you were with? I mean, they must be this. This isn't new to them, you know.
Jay 51:32
Yeah, you know, I did ask my interpreter. I said, you see this a lot? And he said, I've seen it a lot, but, you know, pretty much every single one of them was shed a little tear, especially seeing the seeing the children, especially the the men ask us, guys have their own kids. But yeah, there was a bit of anger, which was justified hopelessness, you know, maybe we're wishing we they got there quicker, or we got there quicker, but yeah, just a whole lot of emotions. I mean, it's, yeah.
Host 52:12
Yeah. I mean, and I can imagine that must be a scene and experience that you're still processing in your life as you go forward, and yet, that's, that's one encounter you had on a visit there. And as you mentioned, you have the passport allowing you to to go to safety these, these are people that are encountering this over and over and over and over again with no support while they're continuing their effort to try to resist and eventually topple this military.
Jay 52:40
Yeah, it's, it's, it's absolutely crazy that that this is happening and and, you know, like it's, it's, it's chalk and cheese, like my life compared to their lives, like it's just I have such security. And, you know, I can have kids and not worry about this stuff. And just to think about these people having to worry about that and have to go through this, as you said, daily. This isn't just a once, once a year occurrence. This is, this is every day. This is every day for them. Yeah, it's, it's sad, but yeah.
Host 53:16
And you mentioned that that last week, there were, there were other incidents that happened to Were there other things you want to share from that week?
Jay 53:23
Yeah, so, um, so we're on the same defensive position. About a week past that incident, we had a loud, loud explosion. I assumed that it was indirect. So artillery or or mortar fire, which junta just fires indiscriminately? You know, you can't, you can't essentially aim at what you're firing at with a mortar at the best of times, especially in terrain like that. But they don't care. They just fire it regardless. Heard a loud explosion, and then we all sort of looked at each other, and then radio chatter started going off. And then I asked my my interpreter, you know, what was that? He said was a mine. I actually that reminds me. Oh, sorry, I'll get to that later. Yeah, he said, That was a mine. And I said, okay, and I was waiting for, sort of all, for all the information to get out first. I didn't want to interrupt. And then I saw sort of the commander of the of the section just sprint off down the hill. And I said, what's going on? And he said, a car has hit the head of mine. We need to go. Can you come with me to see if we need help? So I said, Okay. And all the mines I encountered in in Burma thus far were we call them little toe popper mines. So they're pretty small. They can. Fit in the palm of your hands. Actually got a photo of one that that we took out of a village that junta raided and left behind a surprise for some of the villagers coming back. They told me how to sort of pull their hand to disarm them. I can send that later on, if you like. But yeah, so all the mines I encountered with were little toe poppers or and that sort of stuff, which keep in mind, are illegal, you know, which are a war crime, as per Geneva Convention. But we all know junta doesn't follow those laws. But so I was just assuming that the car ran over a little, a little anti personnel mine. So we started sprinting down. And like I was saying before, the language barrier sort of makes it hard getting information. But yeah, that's, that's all I went off. So we sprinted down. We swung past our temporary base to start off with, and I grabbed and I grabbed my GoPro, which I which I took in there, just to document all this stuff, as well as some more medical equipment that I had in my bag. And again, we sprinted down and come around a corner that we drove on. So this is the only road in and out through through where we were in Corina state. So we got there after about an hour of just sprinting down this hill, and started that started to smell sort of diesel and explosive in the air. And there was a sort of hill that was blocking the view of where the explosion actually happened. So the only thing I saw was was two people laying on the ground, as well as that commander of the section that sprinted downhill. It turns out what it was one of his friends that got hit and passed away, pretty much straight away. And he was sort of slumped there, crying. It was pretty emotional. And then we me and my Topo ran up to the bodies, you know, to assess if they're if they were dead or not, or we could work on them. It was quite obvious that they were they were died. They were dead. They died straight away. One of them was a driver. So he was just a community, sorry, khinin civilian trying to help the khinin army. So he he had a Hilux Toyota, Hilux, which is just to pick up trucks, more light skinned pickup truck that he would drive us around in, and the the other deceased person next to him was the general. So he's, he's, he essentially runs the army, so obvious that they were both dead. And, you know, we just took a second. I asked my interpreter, Where's, where's the rest of them? As I said that, I turned around and saw the Hilux, and it was obvious that, that it wasn't any personnel mine. It was selling completely different. It's it was just Tun into, I'm sure the viewers and yourself, saw the pictures of the vehicle on the Instagram. Yeah, it was just Tun into fuel tank was open, yeah, it was terrible. So quickly ran over to the site. It was just men, spread out, any everywhere, I think all up about six men were in the vehicle, so two in the drivers, one in the driver's seat, and one in the passenger seat. So there's a general and the driver, they die straight away. And I mean, you look at the photos and you look at the driver's seat, and you can just tell that no one survived that. And the rest of them, I think, for for the other four, were in the back of the tray, and they got flown out. So, yeah, they just furthest one was about, I'd say, 15 yards from, from where, from where the the Hilux Lane back down. I remember when I was walking past the Hilux, just seeing the crater in the in the in the ground. It was huge. It was probably six feet deep. And then seeing the bamboo shoots as well. On top of the Hilux, you can tell the highlights got, got lifted up, probably a good five meters in the air and slammed back down. But um, one of my worries were a secondary mine as well. That's a common tactic some some soldiers slash armies use. They'll. Said they'll set up a mine or an IED improvised post advice, and then set up a secondary when, when a force comes out to help, they'll get it. They'll get blown up as well. But I was a bit worried at that, so washing where I stepped, and then it was essentially just a match casualty, those 444, men, just everywhere. So one of the Kearney medics spoke good English, really good guy. He he was there working on him. So he was there for about 10 minutes prior to me getting there, and he tried his best to stabilize everyone. And he done a hell of a job. Hell of a job. He was obviously trained to a good standard, which the training community, you know, pay out of their own pocket for their medics to go and get trained in neighboring countries and that sort of stuff. But, yeah, I just went to the first guy I saw to assess him, round my fingers, through his through his head, to see if he's got any any head wounds and and you can just tell in his eyes that he was just defeated and in shock. But I think he had, he lost a finger, so he was holding his holding his finger, I think his index finger. So I just, I sorted that out. Moved on to the next and the next guy that was sort of sitting up besides him. He was he was just thumped over sort of half his face was, was pretty swollen. He he bit his tongue off for part of his tongue off from the explosion. So sorted him out. He was pretty stable. He was good. Another one head injury we should betic already sorted out. He was conscious. He was just laying there. His mates were were looking after him, checked him for injuries and that sort of stuff. Another one broken leg. But by the time I got to him, his leg was a swollen and, you know, two times the bigger than his other leg, but he was okay. And then I went to the last one that the medic was working on. So he had his leg was pretty, pretty bad. Just, just a bit of muscle holding on his leg. He was the furthest from the site from the explosion, so he would have got thrown pretty hard at the point. So when I got to him, he was conscious and and he had a bit of color in his skin, so put Tony K's on him. He didn't lose too much blood, obviously, in huge amounts of pain. And another thing I want to bring up is the pain relief, like, whether it's a Western Army or in the Western world, you're in a you're in a car accident, and, you know, you need, you're in, you're in severe pain, you're immediately going to get pain relief. And there wasn't any out here for these guys, which is terrible, you know, just he's screaming when we'll put the tourniquets on and and that sort of stuff. No one should be should go through that, especially in 2024 it's, it's horrendous. And so we tried to sort him out. He had a lot of cuts and shrapnel wound all over his body. He started to lose conscious, so I woke him up probably good 10 times, just because I knew that he fell asleep. He's not going to wake up again. I asked the interpreter, you know where, Where's, where's the transport to get him out of here. And I'll just pause it there. So when it comes to ambulances or someone getting injured or or a mother, you know, going into birth in a village, they can't call anyone. They've got no one. They've got less than no one to help them. They've got no police force. I mean, their police force kill them so they're not going to call them. They can't go to the hospitals because they get bombed. So you know, whether it's a wartime injury or just a run on the mill injury, they've got no one. So the road that we took in, which took us about three hours to get through, was absolutely horrendous. And that's the same road in and out that this guy's these these men are going to need to take to get to the neighboring, neighboring countries hospital where they can get treated. And four hours is a long time, especially if you injured like that, you usually only got an hour to be sorted out. But, and one of the ways we actually got this, this road up and running, is we had a captured enemy bulldozer, huge bit of machinery that we that we used, and a crazy, sort of fascinating, a. Expect about it is, you know, the bulldozer weighed about, I'd say, 30 tons. The Hilux probably weighs three. Bulldozer ran over the mine and nothing happened, but the Hilux did. So a lot of it just comes down to luck. But yeah, so I asked my interpreter, you know, you need to get him out of here. How far is it? And you got to keep in mind as well that that there's no phone reception. The Junta cuts down the phone lines in that country and shuts off the internet, and especially out there, you're not getting reception. So, so he said, he said, Fuck it. Pretty much, I'll, I'll go down. So he sprinted. He sprinted down the hill for God knows how long he managed to come across a guy and another soldier on his motorbike, and he took his his dirt bike and and few hours later he got there and told this truck to come pick him up. So in the truck came, at this point, the guy that was in a bad way. He was, he was, he was losing, losing a lot of life. There's not much we could do. We tried to put an IV in, but he took a bit of fluid, but he was in too much shock, so his veins were retracted. So it was hard to get an IV in, but loaded them up. So I think we loaded one two. We loaded four up, though they're all still alive when we loaded them up. But the one that was in bad way, he unfortunately died on the way out. But the rest so that the other three, so the one that lost his finger, broken leg, the bitten off tongue. They all had a lot of other injuries as well, but they they fortunately lived, and one of them actually got released recently. So that's good, but, but yeah, that that pretty much that was the last, the last day I personally had on the front a lot of us fell back because, you know, the general died, and he was sort of one of the higher leaders. They needed to have a funeral for everyone, which I talked about before, which was a huge funeral, and got to see, got to see how the they sort of celebrate life in their community, which is a lot different to the way we do it. And, yeah, that that was sort of the last day I had in Burma.
Host 1:07:32
How do they celebrate life? What did what was that funeral like?
Jay 1:07:36
Yeah, so, so it was big. I've never been to a wedding with 500 people before, and the wedding was funded by the khinin government, you know, down to all the food to feed these 500 people to the caskets, which is good, even though they have, as we know, not a lot of money to do that sort of stuff. They've still done it, a lot of singing and dancing. And it was nice. It was nice to see that sort of stuff. They sort of had the three caskets in a shed with soldiers sort of on standby next to it, a sort of a ceremonial thing, and the family there, which was sad to see families. They were from the refugee camp as well. To the two of the men that died, the general and driver left behind. Driver left behind a one year old boy, a five year old boy and a wife in the in the refugee camp, as well as a general. He left behind some young kids as well. But the the young boy that died, which was when I was working on he he was only 19. And one of the bad things about that is, I remember asking my interpreter, is his family here? And he said, no, they, they couldn't. They couldn't get here in time. These mum and dad and family couldn't get here in time because they were in Kearney, state too dangerous for them to to to make their way there. And plus, you know, there's no morgues. So, you know, as bad as it sounds, you need to have a funeral pretty quickly. You know, you can't put them in a cold morgue and that sort of stuff. So time is on the essence. So they really couldn't see their San be San be buried, which is sad, but yeah.
Host 1:09:27
Right, that's a really harrowing last week you had there.
Jay 1:09:30
Yeah, it was, it was pretty big, right?
Host 1:09:33
You mentioned earlier how, at the break of the conflict with the coup erupted and the Karenni began to resist how they had, as we all know, very little international support. Didn't have weapons or training or that sort of thing. You landed after years of them having to sort out how to procure equipment, as well as training and protocols and everything else. Not to say that. Hasn't been, you know, obviously aos for for decades. But this is, this is another level of resistance, and and armed resistance, especially, and so again, being conscious of security here, I wonder what, how much you can go into, what kind of weapons they had, as well as the organization of the resistance.
Jay 1:10:25
Yeah, so from a soldier's perspective, when I initially got there, they're they're very professional army. I remember my interpreter using sort of Western soldier sort of slang, and it's quite impressed. So they're quite professional. They and they follow the Geneva Convention, and I'm sure they don't have to, but you know that they're essentially what the junta should be. You know they take prisoners junta. Junta would would not hesitate killing all of us, or they wouldn't do it straight away. They'd probably torture us first. But they're very, very professional, the way they move their tactics and that sort of stuff. They could work on a few things. But, you know, I think given the amount of time they were doing it and their experience, I thought that's, that's sort of how they got that and it's funny as it sounds, they learn a lot of this stuff from YouTube as well, so they're really trying to do their best. But in terms of weapons, they're they're not the best at all. Yeah, I'll just leave it at that. Then they're not the best. But, um, yeah, they, they, they're trying so.
Host 1:11:41
And you reference how some of the fortified military bases that are there, how they're resupplied. We've covered that in many past episodes. We've also covered from stories, from Granny, from chin, from other places, about bases that actually could be overrun, but they're not, because overrunning them than results in very harsh retaliatory air strikes, and so they're actually left up strategically. But I'm wondering if you have any sense of just in terms of numbers or estimates or presence, just what we're looking at in terms of the military and the soldiers that are still have some kind of foothold in Karenni.
Jay 1:12:22
So the base that executed those IDPs, we have good authority. They had about 30 to 40 soldiers at that base. But they had a that a larger base with about 120 men, about a kilometer to the south of them. So they could be, they could be reinforced quite quickly. So that's always a dangerous thing when it comes to taking those pushing them out. But yeah, two bases I know that are in Kerney state. There are a handful, but the Kerney are doing a good job in pushing them out.
Host 1:12:58
So right those it is. You think about how fortified the bases are and the obvious advantages they have in terms of air superiority and equipment and everything else at the same time, listening to this, you also can't help but think those, those numbers aren't huge. They don't seem like.
Jay 1:13:16
Yeah, it's not big at all. But one of the big force multipliers is the junta have, or the advantages that they have is both the bases are pretty much on a hilltop, a flattened hill top, and fighting uphill, you're going to take huge casualties, and it's extremely hard. I mean, you imagine walking up or hiking up a, you know, a hill with all your gear, and you're on all fours, pretty much just trying to not to fall over and and then you're fighting, fighting up it is, yeah, it's, it's quite, it's hard, it's hard to do. So, yeah.
Host 1:13:59
If it's that hard for resistance forces to go up. I would imagine that also the soldiers must not come down very often either.
Jay 1:14:07
Yeah, well, that's what I initially thought. But then they that they started going out and executing IDPs and that sort of stuff. And I suppose they had to, because they weren't getting resupplied and they would have starved. So probably a necessity for them. But yeah, I mean, if they do get orders to go out and do that sort of stuff, and any soldier has to follow them. So, yeah, right.
Host 1:14:35
So you mentioned how, after this experience of going and helping out the way that you did, and seeing the vast need in terms of the medical, the medical needs that are there that you feel that your involvement is is far from finished. So what? What more do you want to do as you continue with this?
Jay 1:14:55
Yeah, so I mean, as much as we could do, I. Um, from, you know, and from another country. One of my initial goals to going there is awareness, like, like I told you, I didn't even know where burn was. I didn't know what was happening over there. And every 99.9% of people I talk from all walks of life talk to sorry, from all walks of life, don't know what's going on there as well. And so awareness is a huge thing. It's just a kick in the teeth of these people are going through all that, and the world doesn't know. So, you know, I have a church group as well that I want to bring awareness to. There are a lot of Kurin communities at this church group as well. But yeah, so to answer your question, I want to bring awareness as well as essentially starting a charity to finance medical equipment and that sort of stuff. I one of the one of the people, one of the guys that smuggled me back into the neighboring country. He was, he was same age as me, so he's quite young, but he's, his English was pretty good. He he's actually a principal at a school, and, you know, I was on the back of his scooter and riding along, it's pretty treacherous row for quite a quite a number of hours. And he told me he's his school that he ran in in Kerney state, got bombed twice. One of the first time it got bombed, there were unfortunately kids in there, and they they suffered quite a lot. And the second time was when they did rebuild it away from the original position. Got bomb twice. Fortunately, they were out at the time. But yeah, so he he's now tried a third time. So he runs a school in the refugee camp, so not in Burma. And, yeah, he was just telling me he just got Starlink. So another charity just gifted him a Starlink that he had to wait quite a few years for. And, you know, Starlink only cost 2000 US, and to us, it doesn't seem a lot, but he was waiting two years for it, and it helps that immensely. And he's also also doing an online course from England that he's doing in education. So he goes, he goes to the Starlink every day in the middle of the jungle, and he, he jumps on his laptop and does a course, an online course, that comes out of England. So him telling me all this story, these stories and this stuff, I was, you know, I took in my education for granted, as most of us did in countries like this. You know, there was days I didn't go to school, or I woke up and I didn't want to go to school and that sort of stuff. Or I didn't put in a lot of effort, and my parents didn't have to pay for school, and it was a good school, like Moe, like most Western countries and and this guy and these kids would do absolutely anything to have even a bit of education. It's incredible. You know, books that we use as paper weights, it's gold to them. They actually want to read these books. And they would do any of these kids would do anything for these books. Yeah? So, yeah, I want to try and give him, give him the support he needs. Haven't really figured out what that looks like yet, but might be in the form of books, like I said, and and that sort of stuff. But yeah, that's only one guy story. You know, he's a principal of a small school. There's only 30 kids there, you know, and there's, there's hundreds of 1000s of kids out there that want to go to school.
Host 1:18:48
Yeah, yeah. And how about yourself? Are you thinking about taking a return trip there?
Jay 1:18:53
Yeah, I'll definitely go back at some point. Yeah. I mean, you can, you can do so much from abroad and helps, sure, but, you know, the real help is boots on the ground. So yeah,
Host 1:19:04
And, you know, I think there are people listening to this that are, well, let me break it down. I think that certainly we have large numbers of Burmese diaspora and Burmese in country as well, listening that I think probably feel just an overwhelming sense of the solidarity and support that that doesn't get out there as much often, there's a feeling of real isolation and to hear stories that go against that, even if it's a single individual, I think is really inspiring to know that they're not alone in this. But I think there's also a large number of Westerners and others listening that will often reference to me a feeling of I've characterized it as this helpless outrage, this just hearing these one terrible story after another about a place that they care about, they have some connection to, and just not really knowing what they can do. And I think not, certainly not everyone listening can. Can, can do what you've done. Would have the background or the volition or to take the risk, a very small number step up in that kind of way, and yet there are, there are more ways to be involved and to stand up and to show support. You've taken it to quite a an extreme, incredible example of of what you've done. But that's not the only option for those listening, and so for someone who, as yourself, who has chosen to have been involved and show support in the wide number of ways that you have for those listening that have that sense of helpless outrage and wanting not to be helpless, wanting to do something and not exactly knowing what that is and their capacity whatever it is. What words would you have?
Jay 1:20:48
Yeah, good question. So there are a huge number of NGOs, sort of charities that do good work over there, to name a few. There's free Burma Rangers. I'm sure a lot of your, your listeners know no know what they do. There's a new one, stronghold rescue. They they actually Efrem maddos, I believe is his name is an ex navy seal in America, he pretty much done what I've done, and went over there, and he noticed that, that they need ambulances. They need ambulances desperately, you know, like I just told you about this, the story of the of us hitting the land mine. You know, he, he's, he's has a charity, and he's put together, I think, four ambulances that the sort of full wheel drive Hilux is that he's fitted out. He's also got a boat as well in current state. So, yeah, so they save lives every day, and then that, they not only save soldiers lives, but like I was saying before, you know, pregnant women that need to get to a hospital, or, you know, broken arms, or just everyday stuff, there weren't any ambulances to be given with for these people. But, yeah, he does awesome work. So he's, he's company is called stronghold rescue. So yeah, there's, there's, there's heaps of things we can do. I, yeah, I wouldn't necessarily recommend do what I done, but yeah, that you give $1 a day to a good, a good charity that helps these people. It's, it's gonna get, it's gonna get, you know, kids food, it's gonna get all sorts of stuff.
Host 1:22:42
Yeah, well, I thank you for that. I thank you for sharing what you've done, which is just tremendous, and having the story to be able to go out and inspire others to to know what's going on and to realize and to find their sense, their own sense of agency. As you say, not everyone can do what you've done, but, but there's you know, each according to his own capacity. There's simply taking the 90 minutes to listen to this interview as a way of opening one's mind and one's heart to understanding that something is happening, choosing to care about it, instead of the 90 minutes that could be spent elsewhere. And so I think these are inspiring messages.
Jay 1:23:18
Yeah, the Khin people in the Burmese people, they just, they're strong. They're very strong. And, yeah, like you take, you take these Burmese soldiers, for example, there's only a couple correction Corinne soldiers, for example, there's only a couple 1000. They don't get paid at all. You know that they're only in it for freedom. A lot of them has had families killed at the hands of birming soldiers, so they want to step up and do something. And an interesting fact I learned as well is, you know, like I said, they don't get paid, but the community takes care of them. So, so, you know, you'll have, you have a family that don't know a soldier, but they'll have him in for for dinner, or give him rice and and that's, that's their payment sort of thing is, you know, the community knows that these people are protecting them, whether that's in the refugee camp or if that's in the country, and that's their payment sort of thing. Yeah, there's not a lot of money to go around at all, even before the coup. So, yeah, that's, that's an interesting fact that I learned, too.
Host 1:24:35
So it's a real community effort.
Jay 1:24:37
Yeah, absolutely. The sense of community is huge. I mean, you just look at, you look at, you look at the funerals, 600 people there.
Host 1:24:43
So do you feel that in some way you've become part of that community?
Jay 1:24:48
Yeah, absolutely. I, I'm, I'm the furthest thing from khurni, given my background and my heritage and that sort of stuff. But, but, yeah, I feel part of, I very much feel. Part of them. Now I want to keep going back, you know me, me going around the country and being introduced to all these people and that sort of stuff. They don't know me, but they would just come up to me and they would just say, thank you, and I'm just one guy, and they're thankful for me actually giving a shit, you know. So, yeah, they're thankful for everything, because it breaks, like I said, it breaks my heart. They know what's going on in in Ukraine and then what's going on with all the other wars, and the world's helping them, but they have absolutely no nothing. You know, the mother that I would talk to and her kids were executed or they were bombed, she's got no support, like the family that those those two dead left behind. She's got to take care of, she's gonna take care of the White House, to take care of two young kids. Now, you know, because the dad was was was trying to do his bit and trying to protect his family, because they don't want to go back to Kearney State, these 20,000 people, these 100,000 people in in these refugee camps, they want to go back to their home, but they can't, because they'll be killed, you know, so, so what is she meant to do? Now, there's not much help for her, but, but I, you know, I tried my best to give him some money, but it's not much. But yeah, the community will got around the family and will prop them up financially and spiritually and emotionally for as long as they need. Because, you know, that's that's just what they do there. But yeah.
Host 1:26:41
Yeah. I was actually going to ask you what kind of reception you had from those you were coming into contact with. You must have been quite the unusual site, as well as if you had, if you heard anything about anyone else coming from foreign country that was being involved in the way that you were in the region.
Jay 1:27:00
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the reception I got initially, you know, you get a few, a few curious looks and that sort of stuff. But, you know, they open up to you once, once they figure out why you're there. You actually want to help. They really opened up to me after, you know, I, I the mine incident. I suppose they just saw me helping out. They do get a few journalists as well, Western or white journalists over there. But as far as you know where I was, I would, I think it would be safe to assume that the last time a white person was, you know, where I was, was in the World War. So, yeah, it's, it's a very, very untouched country, very untouched.
Host 1:28:12
Many listeners know that in addition to running these podcast episodes, we also run a non profit better Burma, which carries out humanitarian projects across Myanmar, while we regularly post about current needs and proposals from groups on the ground, we also handle emergency requests, often in matters that are quite literally life or death. When those urgent requests come in, we have no time to conduct targeted fundraisers, as these funds are often needed within hours. So please consider helping us to maintain this emergency fund, we want to stress that literally any amount you can give allows us to respond more flexibly and effectively when disaster strikes. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method, Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need it. Most donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement, CDM, families of deceased victims, internally displaced person. IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries, education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies, COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs, you can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission, Better Burma, any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is directed towards this. Fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website, betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit card. You can also give via PayPal, by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon, Venmo, GoFundMe and cash app, simply search Better Burma on each platform, and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@better burma.org. That's Better Burma, one word spelled B, E, T, T, E R, B, U, R, M, A.org, if you would like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artisan communities across Myanmar, available at alokacrafts.com any purchase will not only support these artisan communities, but also our nonprofit's wider mission that's Aloka crafts spelled, A, L, O, K, A, C, R, A, F, T, S, one word, alokacrafts.com. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.