Transcript: Episode #314: Hope Deferred
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Host 00:23
You're listening to a special version of the Insight Myanmar podcast, which covers the fallout from the military coup and the Democratic resistance. During this crisis, we are not only ramping up production of our podcast episodes, but also our blog and other social media platforms as well. So we invite you to check these out along with signing up for our regular newsletter. All of our other projects have been paused indefinitely so we can focus entirely on this ongoing emergency but for now, let's get into the show
Host 01:50
For this episode of insight, Myanmar podcast, I'm thrilled to be in the Makati Manila office here in the Philippines of the Council of Asian liberals and Democrats. We are speaking to the executive director, Leto our legais, thank you so much for joining us. And can you please give some brief introduction about yourself and your background?
Celito Arlegue 02:13
Thank you, Joe. So I'm lead I've been executive director called since 2010. So called is regional network of political parties in in Asia. So currently, we have 10 members spread across Southeast Asia, East Asia, and Central Asia. So apart from being Executive Director call, they also teach. I have been teaching for the past 24 years, I think, since I, I graduated from college. So I still continue to do that on a part time basis. So I'm teaching international relations and political science.
Host 03:03
That's great. Before we get into the everything that your organization does, and your activities, I'd like to know a little bit more about your background and how you came to this field and came to care about these issues. So, can you walk us through some of those early days and your first inclination, this was the path you wanted to go down?
Celito Arlegue 03:21
Oh, yes. Well, I have always been interested about Asia and actually when I was studying for my undergrad, my my main thesis was on civil society engagement in a say and so, it has always been a passion from the very beginning to know what the different civil society organizations peoples organizations are, are doing in order to to engage this regional organization that many perceive as very state centric and conservative. So because of the interest when the opportunity presented itself in, way back in 2002, I became program officer. So I, at the time I manage a project on political parties and corruption. And when the project was done, I decided to return to the academe full time. So I taught in the University of the Philippines for for eight years, from 2002 to 2009 2010. Until I I was appointed as executive director called so I was called back to return Because because at the time the Secretary General and Executive Director, Interim Executive Director, was running for Senator here in the Philippines. So they needed someone to manage the Secretariat and given that my passion has always been there. When it comes to Asian politics, so I grabbed opportunity, while at the same time still continuing my my teaching.
Host 05:34
You mentioned that you have this passion for Asian politics, how would you characterize the aspirations you have of what you would like to see in Asian politics and the challenges that you feel have been endemic in the political system and across different Asian countries?
Celito Arlegue 05:52
Well, I have to say that I am always disappointed, I have always been disappointed on on, on the way this region has been progressing in terms of democracy and human rights, I don't know whether progressing is the right term to use. Maybe regressing would be more appropriate. But we had to recognize a swell that democracy in this part of the world has never been very strong to begin with a mean, even prior to the so called declined democracy, which has been happening for 1718 years, consecutively. Even before that, I mean, democracy in this part of the world in Southeast Asia in particular, has never been strong. Having said that, when when, when the when the Council of Asian liberals and Democrats was founded in the early 1990s. There were significant positive developments that time, I think, reflecting the global trend as well, after the demise of the Soviet Union, and the so called end of history and opening up liberal and democratic politics. So we see in this part of the world, some countries Philippines, Thailand, Korea, Taiwan, opening up to two more democratic more liberal political situation. So so that has been a swell, the reason why called was founded to, to somehow take advantage of this positive developments, and do more work to consolidate democracy in the region. But that did not last long. So that's why, as I said, I have I have been disappointed with the way things are going. And they think in the past, maybe eight, nine years, things have turned from bad, to worse. And this has really impacted on our work as well as a network of liberal and democratic political parties.
Host 08:43
Do you see that as a trend that's happening across all different societies and parties and countries throughout the Southeast Asian region? Or do you see glimmers of hope or bucking against that trend? How would you characterize looking across the board of what's going on in these different countries in the region?
Celito Arlegue 09:02
Well, definitely there are glimmers of hope. And I would say that Taiwan is one of that. We just celebrated our 30th anniversary and we held it in Taiwan. And that's also our way of saying that Taiwan is a model that many countries in Southeast Asia should look up to in terms of citizen engagement, public participation, strength of democratic institutions. So I think by one should be seen as, as model democratic country. Bye bye. Many countries in this part of the world, but of course, because of the so called One China policy that's happening and I have to say that even among members of color, I mean, it has been a concern, because the pressures from China, I mean, they're everywhere. So we're under the shadow of China. I mean, no matter how hard we try to hide, it's something that we cannot avoid. So it's a reality that we have to somehow take into account in our work.
Host 10:30
Right? Looking at several countries, let's say like Thailand, Indonesia, and then here in the Philippines, these were held at different times in the last several decades as paradigms of, of possible hope or change that was on the horizon. They've, as you've said, the, I think, in all three of those countries, we can say the way that they have progressed is not exactly as as many would like. And so if you break down just a brief analysis on on each of those, and the where you saw the signs of hope, initially, and the direction they were going, and where you think they're at now, or perhaps you don't share the pessimism that others do in in those three cases.
Celito Arlegue 11:10
Yeah, so maybe I can start with with the Philippines. So I think the last two electoral cycles show the inherent problems that we have, in our democracy, I mean, it remains to be elite dominated. We've always been described as democracy with adjectives. I mean, kacica, democracy, elite democracy, pseudo democracy. And and, and the reason behind that is because we really don't have strong establish democratic institutions, including political parties. So political parties in this country are quite, quite weak. Probably the Liberal Party of the Philippines is one of the more establishments, but the rest of the political parties are personality oriented. And that impacts on on on politics. That's why it's quite common in this part of the world. Poor, poor politicians to transfer from one political party to to another. And this personality oriented politics is also the reason why we have the likes of the third day and now President Marcos Jr. As President, so we we as a country, are oriented towards personalities. And, and people like Dr. Wu is very well known for his populists rhetoric. And Ferdinand Marcos boo, did magnificent things on social media to reform the image of his political family. That's why they can easily attract popular popular support. But yeah, I mean, if you if you try to look at it, I mean, this personality oriented politics is the reason why we are in our current situation at the moment. But the good side, I mean, I have to say is that despite this, we have this tradition in the Philippines of strong civil society. So in in, in, in in the literature, we have been described as one of the examples of weak states, strong society, weak state institutions, and somehow because of the weakness of this institution, civil society had to step up. And I think that's one of the one of the things that we will draw on, as we confront this personality oriented politics that we are currently experiencing, so we still have a very strong civil society that can hopefully mobilize support in future future elections. When it comes to Indonesia, we were there last February for the elections and like many democracy supporters and activists we were also quite disappointed with with the election results, again, a manifestation of personality, politics. We were we were also there last year in in October, because one of our member parties, which is also the ruling party, at the time in Indonesia, the PDI Perjuangan, hosted political party management workshop. And at the time, the candidate from the party was still leading in in the polls. This was this was before the time that Jacoby announced that his son is running under the ticket of another candidate. So so it shows that at least in the case of Indonesia, in the recent elections, that the loyalty is not to the party, but the Jacoby as a person. So that's why when, when there was this announcement that his son is running under a different ticket, the support transferred to now incoming president pro bowl. But we also have to recognize that in the case of Indonesia, they have progress a lot. They mean, given the very limited time that they have under a under a democratic system of government. I would even say that they have more institutionalize at least political parties compared to compared to the PDP IDs. So considering that they only transition to democracy in 1998, yeah. And they had please be relatively peaceful, transfer some power. So if you, if we again, look at the the literature on what would constitute as consolidated democracy, there has to be at least two peaceful transfer sub powers and and they were able to, to accomplish that. But then again, there are still problems that remain. And unfortunately, even under Jacoby Stein, there were some policies that were adopted, which restrict the same big space. But the overall, I think we still saw more progress in Indonesia. Compared to the compared to the PDP it's I have to say. By land, we were also there last elections, in May. So we were, at the time, also excited on the on the possibilities with the opposition party, surprisingly, winning the polls. So but even during that time, we know that them forming a government would be another story. I mean, winning an election and then forming a government. They are two different matters, especially given the the presence of a Senate which are unelected, and which will be part of the process purchasing the prime minister. And sure enough, that's exactly that's exactly what what happened. So it's it's unfortunate that in Thailand, now, the conservative forces are are back in power. And unless reforms, I mean, are done in terms of political institutions. I think it will just be a vicious cycle. And it's sad because because I think the Thai people made themselves very clear, at least based on the results of the last elections that they want change. But they were again, prevented from RE realizing the change in terms of their politics. And and I'm, I'm afraid they have to say or on what could be the implications of this in the future? On on on what could happen in terms of society in terms of stability? Because the tensions are there. I mean, we may not see it now, but it's there. And eventually this will this will ever up. And that's scary.
Host 20:45
Right. So let's look at the role of ACN. And your view of what ACN has been doing that what they were we can say what they were established and set up to do and how we understand their mission.
Celito Arlegue 21:00
Yeah. As I mentioned, in the beginning, I mean, a Saiyan has always been perceived as state centric, even conservative, and they think there is there is some truth to that. And by saying that I'm being a bit diplomat. So having said that, I also believe that the ASEAN has a critical role to play any intervention. I mean, they always think, what would this region be without a say, and probably it would be worse. But I say and definitely can do more, especially when it comes to democracy and human rights. And since they committed themselves to this principles, at least when they adopted the ASEAN charter, it's also seen in many of their statements. So I just think that they have to somehow do more when it comes to realizing this principles and values in reality, but it appears that this principle of non intervention respect for national sovereignty, among other things, it really restricts on what ASEAN could do. And we can see this as well, in the case of the case of Myanmar, yes, yes, most specific.
Host 22:48
Right, there's never I don't think you can, you can invent a more profound test case, than is the role in the region then looking at the problems that are in Myanmar and how they are engaging or not engaging there. It's really quite a public embarrassment that it's just not going away I think and so I think that does bring us into the Myanmar sphere is looking at we've we've looked at your organization, the some of the regional countries is Ian's role when this I think this sets the stage well for understanding your your personal interaction with Myanmar, your organization's interaction with it, and then some of your views of where Myanmar would fit into and perhaps not fit into some of these dynamics. We're talking in the region. Can you first take us back and describe and I know that you for for reasons we'll get into in the interview, I know that you your organization has not been so involved post coup so much of this conversation will be more pre coup for reasons that will become evident soon enough. But can you describe how you first came involved in the Myanmar sphere and what you were doing how you were interacting in those those years?
Celito Arlegue 24:00
Yes. Well, Myanmar is is always part of cards are a bit if I can put it that way. Or one. One of our members before was the National Council of the Union, the former or NC up. So this was before before 2010. So prior prior to 2010, the NCU B has been representing Myanmar's agenda in call. So far one, if I remember correctly, way back in 2000 and by when the inter parliamentary union was held in Manila, and at the time the senate president of the Philippines was being headed by by Franklin Drilon. Bow coincidentally was chairperson of God as well. So during that time, we we organize side events where we had representatives, both from Myanmar and Cambodia. At the time, this were two countries, which were really experiencing problems in political persecution. So the representatives from Myanmar and Cambodia were not allowed to attend the formal Ipu proceedings because they were not invited. So what we did at the time was to organize side events, even press conferences, which were well attended, where they can discuss the political situation in in Cambodia, and Myanmar. And during that time, we, I think we even created a Philippine parliamentary caucus on on Myanmar, which eventually also coordinated very closely with the assailant interparliamentary, Myanmar cocoas. And they think this parliamentary caucus was the precursor organization of what we now know as the SA and parliamentarians for poor human rights. I see. Right. So. So yeah, we've been involved as early as the early 2000s. On this particular issue. So yeah, so that has been the case until the 2010. The 2010 There was an election if I'm not mistaken in, in Myanmar. I'm not too sure. But 2010 was a critical juncture in our in our relationship with Myanmar because November of that year, though, own Sun Tzu Chi was released from house arrest. And only a couple of days or weeks after her address. The NCU be contacted us and said that they wanted to convey their appreciation to then Philippine President Noynoy Aquino, who won the elections in in June of 20, sorry, in May of 2010. And one of the first overseas trips of then President Aquino was an ASEAN summit in Vietnam. Where the surprise of many ASEAN observers, he called for the release of Aung San su chi was at the time still under house arrest. So when Aung San su chi was released in November of 2010, so she wanted to talk to to the president to convey her thanks, and this could not be done through diplomatic, the diplomatic channels, and that's why she contacted called okay. And we were able to precipitate the call. So we were told that the call, the call lasted for around 15 minutes. So at the time switchy just conveyed her gratitude for President Aquino support and President Aquino said that her mother, when when she was still alive, would have always wanted to meet with Aung San su chi and they have always been supportive of the Myanmar costs. So she conveyed that to the lady and he promised that he would continue to Bush, or for greater democratization in in Myanmar. So that was really, I think, one of the events that validated our, our existence as a network of political parties was interesting, because at the time we were thinking, Okay, we were able to facilitate the call, we were able to connect Aung San su chi with President Aquino. We were able to make that possible. I mean, since they could not have done it. I don't think the Department of Foreign Affairs of the Philippines was informed of that call. I mean, it was done on a private telephone. We were there in the Bella Canyon Palace. I was there. But during the call itself, the ark, our Secretary General, who was at the time he was no longer a member of Parliament at the time because he he he ran for the Senate but didn't win. But he was being considered for a cabinet posts. By then President Aquino he was the one who was with President Aquino, when when the call was made, and he told us everything that happened after after the call. So yeah, I mean, after that call, we were so happy that we were able to, to make it possible. And I think that's one value of having a network like call. I mean, this party to party connections can be used in case in case there are some diplomatic restrictions prevented you from doing what needs to be done. So so that's why I say said we consider it as a defining event or the defining moment in our existence.
Host 32:18
Right, so then she doesn't tense is as you reference on song sushi is free, the democratic transition starts in earnest in those years, there's a lot of hope and optimism from all quarters. There's also caution and concern from others. And this is a period of time that is still being carefully analyzed, and people are looking at through different lens and in different ways. But tell us your involvement and your organization's involvement during these 2010s. How were you involved in Myanmar? What were you doing?
Celito Arlegue 32:51
Oh, yeah. Well, first and foremost, prior to that call between President Aquino and Aung San su chi, in a simple ceremony, held a couple of months before we We bestowed an individual member's membership to Aung San su chi. So in a simple ceremony, of course, she was not present in the ceremony, because she was still in house arrest. But she accepted cards on a robbery individual membership. And when she was released from house arrest in November 2010, image immediately we planned on how we can be CIT her in in Myanmar, it takes a lot of preparation. I remember quite well, because I was already involved in in the organizing of the visit. There were lots of back and forth on how we should do this. Of course, we have to take into account the the security of the delegation as well and of course, the security of Aung San su chi. But we were able to make that possible. So in in January of 2011, we, we went to Myanmar, a call delegation went to Myanmar. Many, many of the members of the delegation were members of Parliament at the time. So there was one from Indonesia, from Thailand, from the Philippines, from Cambodia, around six or seven people, so we went to Myanmar, and we were able to meet with Aung San su chi We know that our actions, our movements were being monitored. Because at the time when you go to Aung San su chi is house, there were people outside taking camera, taking photos and videos. So, so so that's why immediately after the meeting, we, we had to leave, we went straight to the, to the airport, I mean, just for security purposes. But we were so we were so I have to say at the time, we were so impressed with, with the quiet determination of Olson, su chi, even during those early days, like she was already telling us that we have to ensure that Myanmar return to democracy. And she even as some members of our delegation, point blank, what they have done to advance democratization in Myanmar, she was quite direct to the point where we have to say, she addressed one member member of the delegation in particular instead, what have you done, but what your country done for Myanmar. So she was she was very gracious, I have to say, but she's also direct to the point and and at the time, she also emphasized the importance of national reconciliation in order to advance the country forward, but this our reconciliation should be based on on justice. So, when when we left and we had a debriefing session about this meeting, like the the members of the delegations, they were telling, telling me that we have to do more, when it comes to Myanmar, I mean, we have to follow up on the things that Aung San su chi told us in and we did exactly that. So, so during this time, NCU B was already painting in the background, and NL B is taking the cudgels in terms of representation in in called events. So in a meeting with members of the European Parliament, for example, in in 2012, we were able to invite Obon 10 to attend and represent the NLT. So the meeting took place in the European Parliament, in Brussels in 2012. Okay, so We made him one of the key speakers, the European parliamentarians. person, so happy to see him there. In and we also ensure that the NLD representatives were were present in our events, whether we talk about women and the youth. So they were invited to attend this workshops and training. And maybe in recognition of this relationship, the NLD when they held its political party assembly in 2013, if I'm not mistaken, so they invited the den chairperson to call to attend the NLD party assembly in Myanmar. So at the time, the chairperson of called was Sam Rainsy of Cambodia. So so he I think he was the only political party representative that was invited abroad from abroad in that, in that party congress of the NLP and during the party congress are chairperson reiterated our continuing support to the NLD. And after that, in coordination with Obon, 10. We organize a political party management workshop, in in Myanmar, this was in 2014 2015, because of the time they were telling us that they're preparing for the 2018 elections. And in their history, they only had two elections. So they wanted to update their their skills, what, what should they do? So, so we went there in initially in 2014. And we had a party management workshop. So we also invited representatives from called members to share experiences, about their respective elections. So after that, they said, Okay, I mean, we now have a general sense of what we should do, but we need more, we need a concrete election, election plan. So that's why we returned early 2018. So this was before the 2018 Myanmar elections, to have a specific training for them on on strategic campaign plan, which is tailored for the, for the NLD. So we did this early 20 PP. And it was participated in by maybe around 50 participants from NLD. Many of this participants eventually became members of parliament after the after the 2015 elections. So, we were also so happy about about that, I mean, the facilitators at the time, they came from the Philippines and they were telling us that that may be in a way they feel that they have contributed to the victory of the NLD in the 2015 elections, of course, we can take full credit for it, but to a certain extent, they were so happy that somehow what what we did had been translated into to reality, we can put it that way. So, so yeah. So, so, after the 20 2018 elections, we tried to somehow take the relationship to the next level, because we have been inviting them to call events. So they are participating as what we call observer member, which is a very informal a very informal category of membership. So we wanted them to become a pool member. But we sense at the time that they were not yet ready. And this became more complicated when the Rohingya issue happened. Yeah. So, when the Rohingya issue happened, of course, we as a network of political parties advocating for democracy and human rights, I mean, we cannot ignore we can just ignore what is happening with approaching Yes. So, so, so, so, we issued a statement on the on the Rohingya crisis, I have to say that it took a while for us to, to crap that statement, but at this because on the one hand, we want to maintain our relationship with the NLD. But on the other hand, we also have to speak against human rights abuses. So it was not an it was an easy process. So we have to find that balance. So I think that statement essentially just reiterated that ASEAN countries should do more to address the crisis, especially since some of them are signatories to the, to the Refugee Convention. So the statements were just along those lines. But our sense of the time is that the NLD. How they put the lay, with the sense that we get is that the NLD did not even want to use the term Rohingya. So it gives us more or less an indication where they stand in terms of the crisis. And from then on, our interaction has become less frequent. I don't know whether it was because of the statement or because they were they were too busy with other things. I mean, being being a governing party. They have, maybe they have to refocus their attention into governing instead of international relations. And so I'm not really sure whether it was because of that, of that statement. It could be because of other things. But yeah, I mean, but they still engage with us, even after the that statement. And when we celebrated our 20th anniversary, sorry, our 25th anniversary in Bangkok in 2018. They even sent representative I remember quite well, that when the when we held the executive committee meeting, in there was a discussion about the Rohingya. There was a certain degree of awkwardness when we were when we were discussing the issue. Because I think what one thing that we have to recognize when it comes to the NLD is that is it's a highly structured political party, we're in decisions. Even statements have to be cleared by the people on top. So it's a very hierarchical political party. So when they send representatives store events, so the statements the what they can say what they can say, has to be in line with with the party position, which I think is just okay. I mean, as a political party, when you represent your party to international events, whatever you say, has to be in line with with the party position. So So yeah, in that, in that event, in, in the called at the bursary event in Bangkok, so we had the privilege of having that representative from from NLD, who was an MP. And in this MP was, sadly one of those executed in 2022 by yeoseo Tao. So, so that's why in 2022, we also released a statement condemning the the execution, it was one of the pipe executors.
Host 49:32
Can you share how that impacted you personally, when you heard that news and what your relation and feeling toward towards him was and having met him and spent time?
Celito Arlegue 49:44
Oh, yeah. Many of us were shocked when they you shared the news in our international lions group. Because many, many of our members remembered him quite well from that. From that meeting, In in 2018, I mean, he was young, he was very articulate, we have to say. And the general sentiment was, what a waste of life, I mean, but a waste of potential. I mean, he could have done much, much more for BART, Myanmar. So that's why when I when when we propose that we issue a statement, and it was unanimous, unanimously and immediately approved. So I think that shows, I mean, how this particular event affected the membership.
Host 50:48
There's so much there and your story, it's so fascinating. And I want to go back to this start of it in the early 2010s, and pick apart a few things to better understand them. Before I do, I want to ask one question that may be maybe a stupid question to ask, but I want to ask it anyway, just just for point of record, I understand that you were engaging with the NLD and training them through democratic forms and stuff, did you ever have or tried to have any contact at any time with the military itself and try to speak to members of the military or the affiliated like USDP or other whatever the party was at the particular time to have any engagement with them and trying to teach them some of these processes and the Democratic roadmap?
Celito Arlegue 51:32
Oh, unfortunately, we did not. Yeah. Because, I mean, as, as an organization, our our mandate is to engage parties, which are our members. Or if they are not yet members, at least those parties, which have a liberal or democratic credential. So but I see your point. I mean, it makes sense to, to also engage with other poor assess if we are really concerned about, I mean, democratization, right. But yeah, because because we have limited resources as well. So we tend to use those resources to develop democratic forces instead. Yeah,
Host 52:30
I was I was just curious, if if there was any attempt to engage or any conversations the it would be very fascinating to, to to imagine what, you know, it's one of those million dollar questions. What are these generals thinking? What are these soldiers thinking? So any any insight we have into those engagements in their roadmap and their intentions is always always insightful, even though it might not be so so pleasant to hear. But then the other another question I have is when you were talking about your early engagement, your pre 2015 election engagement with the NLD. And this is quite a fascinating moment to revisit, because this is if you put yourself back there, this is of course, pre coup, pre Rohingya crisis, we don't know what we know. Now. There's I was around in Myanmar in the early 2010s. And throughout the 2010s. But certainly in the early 2010s, there was this extraordinary sense of Prague Spring this opening some this this feeling of something in the air, everyone that was there describes it, and you're, you're meeting with these future parliamentarians and MPs and, and other leaders from all walks of life, civil society, etc, that are really quite literally coming out of the darkness coming sometimes coming out of prison cells, years of torture and confinement, sometimes secret groups that were that we're having to keep a very low profile, all other manner of speaking, given what we know of the brutal repression that was happening in Myanmar before 2010. And it, I can only imagine how exciting it would be to be a representative, bringing in your expertise, your background and these processes and seen this, this opening that is quite rare in the world quite rare to I think be alive for in your lifetime to have one moment where you you enter a society that is going through this kind of potential profound transition to from such darkness and oppression to such a possibility of change, and to be with those potential chainmail changemakers in the room. I mean that that would be something I think as an individual, you'd remember for the rest of your life what it was like to be in that environment.
Celito Arlegue 54:47
I think what I remember quite well from those interactions, which I have to say it's really profound and it was I can even say life changing. Because many of the people who attended our trainings many of them were political prisoners. So they were telling us about their, their life in prison. I mean, how they were tortured, how they were separated from their family and the impact of these things on them. But what really struck me is that these people do not have any and paganism towards the military regime. Well, which was really surprising for me. Yeah. Like we were talking about, like national reconciliation, we need to move the country forward. So they were not in any way talking about ripple lating, against the military regime. And that struck me. I mean, how can you even say that they mean, the military government took everything from you. Yeah. And these were people like in their, in their, in their 50s, in their 60s, even 70s. And there was really no antagonism towards the regime. They were just interested about moving the country forward, they were very excited about the elections, they were, they were really thrilled to learn about the experiences of other countries. So that struck a mean, that's why at the time, we were really optimistic about the possibilities, because these were people who are willing to set aside whatever hardships Persia personal hardships that they experience during the regime to democratize the country, and I think, looking at the experience of other countries like South Africa, for example, this is critical for for success, I mean, to, to set aside those personnel mysteries and hardships and think of the country as a whole. I think that's what struck me the most,
Host 57:41
And why do you think that was? Do you have any sense of how they were able to do such a remarkable thing of putting the the country's development and the future of the of the people ahead of their own, I don't even want to say personal grievances, it's far beyond that. And that the measure of suffering and loss and trauma that existed? It is no easy thing to to push that aside, or even perhaps to acknowledge it. But to move on from it. Did you get any sense from any of those conversations? How they were able to do this this tremendously unique thing and the human experience?
Celito Arlegue 58:18
I have to say, I still can't understand that. I mean, in my conversations with them with Owen 10, in particular. So he was just saying, I mean, passes pass, I mean, we now have this opportunity to develop the country. So we should put our energies into it. So so I'm not sure what how or why they were able to adopt that perspective. But it's really amazing to witness that. I mean, I wish I could have deeper conversations with them on on why, why they adopted the perspective but yeah, I mean, broadly speaking, those are things that the they told us during the meetings that we had with them.
Host 59:16
And you're saying that's life changing, as well as that that's I assume that's from not just the developmental work you were doing, but personally as well, and what ways was it personally life changing to hear these, these these revelations?
Celito Arlegue 59:29
Well, it's life changing, because now whenever I think about this, political conflicts happening all over Asia? Yeah. Like I can, like I always think that, you know what, I mean, this political conflicts, yeah. This too shall pass. I mean, provided that we have The right people to be in positions of authority. I mean, we can easily move past these conflicts and think about the future of the country.
Host 1:00:12
Yeah, of course, human nature is complex because then we moved from this to just a couple of years later, the Rohingya crisis and some of the same people that are that have been have gone through torture are willing to forgive their tortures nonchalant way move forward for the betterment of the people. Then the country gets married. In this Rohingya, this terrible we're in a crisis that's later termed a genocide and to the confinements and befuddlement of many observers, why a human rights icon and a party that so violently resisted, this military regime doesn't seem to be standing on the right side of history and is actually doing the opposite. And so is there, I don't want to ask you to reveal any, anything that you hold confidential. But if I wonder if in general terms you can speak to did, were there any conversate informal conversations or talks or dialogues behind the scenes of people that you had been so impressed with, by the way, they had responded in these critical moments where you really see their character come out, trying to call up that same character and understand why why they were not budging on something that seems so obvious to those of us outside, and what where that stuckness was in place to, to not be on that right side of history?
Celito Arlegue 1:01:33
Yeah, um, but from the perspective of called verse at that time, when the Rohingya crisis happened, I have to say that we, we, as a network of political parties also tried to look at it from the ML DS perspective. So we tried to understand where they are coming from and in, in our conversations. For example, we recognize that there are some constraints that the NLD have to address or have to confront. And from the outside these constraints may not have been given proper attention. Yeah. So So that's why, while we're concerned about the human rights situation, the humanitarian crisis, about the Rohingya we we as a network, we decided that it's, it's still worthwhile to continue the relationship. Because we're also thinking that them being part of it, even informally, we can, we can at least talk to them and tell them maybe behind closed doors, that these things should not have been happening. I know there are pros and cons to that particular strategy. I mean, you may even say that's also the Myanmar I mean, the the reasoning behind Myanmar engagement within the assailant, for example, but But yeah, I mean, I think there's greater sympathy, empathy among the cult members, when it comes to this issues, because we tried to look at it from a politician, political party political leader perspective. So, so, when we were talking to NLD leaders about this, I think one of the reasons that they said was that we should look into the history of Myanmar and why this class crisis is happening. And, of course, we are not experts into this. So so. So the thing that they told us is, it's much more complex than than what we're seeing now. And we adopted this position because this is how we look at the History. And I have to say that at the time, we felt that we felt that we are not in a position to make judgment. And there were instances that, that we just chose to, for lack of a better word, or to just stay silent and keep the conversations within the network.
Host 1:05:47
As you're saying this, I first I just want to acknowledge, I think this is a hindsight is always 2020, there's always a way to look back and say, I should have done this, or you should have done that. And at the time, that and I've spoken to many people on this podcast platform that we're involved in the we're in the country, you're involved in the country in some area, that we're also grappling with both the information coming in that we and again, you don't the as the information is coming out, we you don't know what the time what we know. Now we have now we have the hindsight of a lot more knowledge and a, you know, a genocide, a formal genocide declaration by the United States by Secretary Blinken. There's that and then there's also that when you're trying to navigate a crisis, and even with varying degrees of complete information, trying to figure out the correct course is no easy thing in real time. So I have sympathy for the challenge of trying to do the right thing and not knowing what that is. So with that context, kind of express to, to your sharing, I also want to acknowledge that I really see you struggling as you're describing this, I really see you you know, right now in real time, stopping and stuttering and as you go back and recollecting this, I can imagine it's bringing up a sense of pain or I don't know pain or regret or second thoughts. And so I asked you this not to look at, well, what you should have done better or where or what you missed at the time. But in really the kind of the kind of open vulnerability this podcast tries to have where we're hopefully in this, this safe place of being able to, to look at these things in, you know, without this, this this judgment or this critique, but for the sake of better understanding what was happening as you're, as you're sitting there grappling with, reflecting back on what you did what you didn't do, what you know, now that you didn't know then, are there feelings that there were there were decisions that were made that were made with the the best information at the time and the best intentions possible. But as you look back now, and knowing how things turn out the benefit of 2020? Are there different directions that you think maybe would have been more skillful at the time or things that were not done that could have been done? Or is there there a sense of feeling that there was just the way the pot was cooking? There was probably little that could have been done in any case?
Celito Arlegue 1:08:19
Yeah. Now, I mean, looking back. Personally, I, I don't know whether I can speak on behalf of God. But personally, I think we could have done more during the time, especially when the crisis was unraveling. And we have this we have disconnections with, with political leaders in Myanmar at that line. I mean, a wish we could have done more. I have to say, though, that, that we really tried. But at the time, they were also probably because of the international criticism. They were starting to, to close international contacts. So it was also it was also a struggle for us. But we have, I think, one the value of call this the personnel relations that we have built with these people and and I think we could have tapped more those personnel relations, so that we could make an impact. I think in some instances, we just chose the path of least resistance So yeah, I mean, I think personally, really, I think we could be could be could have done more. During that time.
Host 1:10:10
Looking back on the training that you did in the 20. In 2014, before the election, of course, you had no idea what was coming down the line and just a few years, and that was the situation you were called to do with the training in and of itself, you're you're trying to help people who have never lived in democracy, understand the process of democracy, that's no easy task in and of itself. And I'm sure that there were the the trainings, you were organizing the objectives you had, that was no easy feat to figure out how to bring this all together in that context, as difficult as it was. But now, again, with the hindsight of 2020, and looking at what was just a few years down the line, do you think that there was anything that could have been added to that training that with the benefit of future knowledge that could have given some of those leaders understanding or context of that would have better equip them when that crisis came?
Celito Arlegue 1:11:09
Yeah. Well, at the time, because we were to concentrated on the 2015 elections. We did not really discuss during the training, what should be done, for example, in case they win. So we never thought about it, really, but into, I think, from the cult experience, this is always an issue that we have to confront, as political parties, like, because many of our political parties are, are in opposition. And they have been in opposition for the longest time, some of them never even had the experience of being in government. So what happens when they when it's an issue that rarely discuss? So I wish we could have imagined I mean, if we know that they would win? Yeah, I wish we could have included that in the training because we, we have a lot of experience when it comes to that. And if I remember correctly, we even had the conference here in Manila, way back in 2010. Because of the time, President Aquino won, and the Liberal Party of the Philippines, has been out of power for the longest time. In that conference, we had the session on governing, like, what should you do? When you're in power, I mean, the things that has to be prioritized or has to be immediately address by the governing party. So I think this is one shoe that we could have tackled more during the training. Because I think during the early early months of the NLD, they also struggled with that. I mean, from being an opposition party to.
Host 1:13:27
Did you play a role at that time there? Were you you did the pre election training? Where do where you Was there an interest or an activity of the post election, the post victory and training them not just in winning the election, but actually being in the in the governing seat?
Celito Arlegue 1:13:42
Actually, when they they, when they won elections, I think they become too preoccupied. So support a time, we could not reach them through the usual, the usual contacts, see. So I think that's what usually happens. I see. You're just so overwhelmed by the things that have to be done. Of
Host 1:14:06
course, there the irony there is that if you had not been so overwhelmed, or put a part of your organization or your mind or or delegated someone to look at these things, you still have to learn them, you know, maybe things would have turned out differently.
Celito Arlegue 1:14:24
Yeah, I think that's the usual case when it comes to when it comes to political parties becoming suddenly in government. Because the the key people in the party becomes appointed to government positions. And suddenly you have no one who has to take care of the party. And that's what we always tell our members, maybe you should have a dedicated person that remains in the party no matter what. So that that that person can still take care of the party can still address the needs of the party, even post election
Host 1:15:03
in. So bringing this story closer to today where we sit now you the the after the Rohingya crisis, you you discuss how you're you have a decision to make whether or not you maintain connection with them, you decide to maintain connection, because it's better to have some contact and no contact at that point even though there's some Distress about the way that they've conducted themselves. And by now we're getting into 2019 2020 election and into the coup. So talk about how how how your involvement changed after the Rohingya crisis leading up to the coup? And then what if anything has happened since the coup? Yeah.
Celito Arlegue 1:15:48
So as I said, after we issued that, that that statement on the Rohingya we, we we sense that they're not as enthusiastic already in terms of engagement. And that's why we, we attempted to, to, again, revive, strengthen the relationship by visiting Myanmar in 2017. And we even met with precedent, the precedent at the time. And we also took the opportunity to reiterate our invitation, or for the NLD to become to become a pool member. But after this, apart from the participation in the 20 18/25 anniversary conference, we had very limited engagement. Are you ready? Yeah. So so i That's why I said that. We sense that the international connections, they were beginning to, to, to screen for lack of a better, that's really sad. Yeah. Because of the probably because of the criticisms that they were receiving internationally. And that also, that also applies to us. So it became more difficult to reach them. So prior to the coup, I mean, even leading to the 2020 elections, we had very limited contact.
Host 1:17:58
So you were not involved in any way with the preparation for the 2020 elections.
Celito Arlegue 1:18:02
Not anymore. Not anymore. And a thing before the 2020 elections, then the last contact we had was the 2018 event in November in a while.
Host 1:18:15
So you're really out by that point. Yeah. So then, when the coup hits, has, I know, in many cases, when the coup happened, it did reactivate and re energize a lot of people individually organizations as well as connections that had been formed and forged in past eras to suddenly respond to this, this urgent thing that was happening. Your relationship is different with because it's a more formal one with NLD training and such. But after the coup, was there, was there any attempt at communication at help at engagement? Or was it just was it just a bridge too far by that point?
Celito Arlegue 1:19:00
When when the coup happened, we immediately released a statement. Yeah. But beyond that, I mean, we don't know what to contact, really. So we're at a loss. I mean, because many of the people that we know from the party are either in prison or in exile. And those who are in exile don't want to be reach at least during the time. So So, so yeah, beyond releasing a statement, we we we have very limited ways to be in touch really with with the party. And and when n ug was eventually formed Have we tried to, to engage with the core Sasa? And actually it's included in the book that I gave him? So it has an interview with Dr. Sasa, which happened during the pandemic, maybe the pandemic also impacted on what we could do, because of the time. I mean, most of our activities are online and we our operation was also affected especially in the in the Philippines, because we had multiple lock downs. So we could not go to the office at all. So everything has to be done online. So yeah, I mean, so beyond releasing statements, we we had an in depth interview with Dr. Sasa Dr. Sasa, by the way also spoke in our, in our 2022, General Assembly conference, by a video call.
Host 1:21:15
But beyond those things I was gonna ask about energy, though, is is called set up to be able to work with and engage a apparatus, I don't know what else to call it. It's so non conventional with what the N ug has become and what it's doing, or is it just too nebulous? And the situation too uncertain for the background of your organization to really be effective and involved?
Celito Arlegue 1:21:43
Yeah. Well, there have been proposals to invite the N ug to become a member of Congress. And we were telling, telling the membership that this is not something unprecedented. I mean, we had political parties in exile. We had political parties, which were eventually declared illegal and now operating overseas. So so it's something that has to be considered. So there were proposals before. I think that we have not really sit down the sun, as an organization and think about these proposals. But But personally, I think this is something that we have to, to consider. Because, as what you may have correctly pointed out that the relationship is a bit nebulous at this at this point, I mean, very important.
Host 1:22:55
So to clarify, you've made that offer to and ug but haven't heard back, or
Celito Arlegue 1:23:00
we haven't written it was raised during during meetings, but it was not, like, formally discuss we were not formally told as a secretariat, can you issue an invitation letter to the, to the end ug to become a member? Because our activities the Secretariat has to be in accordance with decisions taken by the Executive Committee?
Host 1:23:30
If you were to work within ug, what capacity? Could you help them, retrain them, given how given what we know of the crisis and conflict today?
Celito Arlegue 1:23:38
But I think, primarily by just providing them the platform, the the network for them to raise their issues? Because I think, sadly, looking at developments in in recent months, when the when the Ukraine war happened, and now we have Palestine? I think it's been out of the reader. Yeah, yeah. I was reading an article about the meeting between Biden, I mean, among Biden, the Japanese prime minister and our own president and Myanmar was not even raised as an issue, which is most unfortunate considering that the Philippines will become the next ASEAN chair. And, and Biden could have use that opportunity as well to to raise the issue, but it wasn't up discuss it. It became too China centric, I have had to say yeah,
Host 1:24:50
That's that's that's very true today. You had talked about this, this warm relationship between the Philippine president at the time and on top Thanks, Richie. And you've just referenced how Philippines as the next chair of ASEAN, can you tell what you've seen of Philippine Myanmar relations in the past number of years? Yeah.
Celito Arlegue 1:25:13
I mean, when it comes to the incumbent president, I think there was a recognition on his part that the Myanmar issue was a complex issue, that it was a difficult issue. But I don't think there was a clear statement on on Myanmar. I have to say, I'm not surprise because I think the incumbent administration has been trying to somehow gain support of the international community by projecting itself, as well as an ally of Western countries, particularly in relation to China. But beyond that, it has not done enough, I mean, to to advance democracy or human rights in the in the region. So I'm not I'm not really surprised that the incumbent administration is not really paying sufficient attention when it comes to Myanmar. Although I, I remember, during a state visit to Vietnam, earlier this year, like there was again, a recognition about the Myanmar crisis, at least in terms of providing humanitarian aid. But, but I was thinking, for example, Philippines is a signatory to the Refugee Convention, what have we done? I mean, considering that there, there's a significant number of refugees trying to, to poly Burma, or at least already in a very uncertain situation in other countries. But what have we done to to address the plight of these refugees, I don't think we have done much.
Host 1:27:26
I've spoken to people in Thailand, specifically about the impact of both the coup and the resistance and how this turns out in their countries. Specifically, it's obviously sharing the border and being so much closer, in many ways. And then looking at the wider region. I'm wondering about your thoughts on the Philippines specifically, and the region as well. We have an attempted coup that is now over three years, and it has not been resolved. And you have a resistance that is fighting for its democratic rights, its human rights, and trying to put forward a new future in resisting this, this terrible attempt to take over and doing it with almost no support at all for the international community. And we really see this, this microcosm of a conflict playing out before our eyes, I would characterize as very much dark and light, you know, forces of tyranny and oppression versus those forces that are trying to however imperfect trying to propose a better future for all and a more equitable country for everyone to live in, depending on how this conflict plays out both and, you know, whether whatever scenario of the Let's all hope this doesn't this isn't the case. But in the military prevailing, or of the people being able to overcome the military and create some kind of better future for themselves or something in between those realities. How do you see the consequences of that playing out and and to the rest of the region to the the leaders in the Southeast Asian region, as well as to the people that are striving? Do you think this will operate as kind of an example or a, a cautionary tale depending on what happens for different countries that neighboring countries that are around that are observing this?
Celito Arlegue 1:29:21
Yeah. I have to say that I'm really surprised that a Saiyan is not recognized, recognizing this as a regional security issue, or probably they did in their statements, but in reality, their actions appear to to not really take this ongoing crisis in Myanmar as a regional security issue because I think it is. So You're correct in pointing out that this is a cautionary tale of what could happen. And the mere fact that it's happening within our borders as a saying and that we could not have, we could not do anything about it, at least we have not done anything about. I mean, it really baffles me why I say and is not doing enough on this particular issue. I always say I mean, if we can be concerned about what's happening in Ukraine or in Gaza, we have one happening in our own backyard. So, so I think we could we could really do more and I think I say and should start by, by by by recognizing and ug and CRP H as the legitimate Boyce's of the Myanmar people, I mean, they could do more than just banni, the military junta representatives from from attending a say and meetings right. So, I think giving giving CRP H and N ug recognition is one step that cn should should consider. Beyond that, I think we should also try to get the support of countries outside the region like Japan. I mean, Japan, to my knowledge has significant investments in, in in Myanmar. So maybe we can talk to Japan and somehow use its economic clout to do more in in, in Myanmar. And realistically speaking, we also have to do more to give military support to the many forces that are fighting in Myanmar think this is a very sensitive issue, because on the one hand, are we are we really giving armaments the to two forces. But at the same time, like what you pointed out, I mean, this is a battle between lightness and darkness between good and evil. I think we have to be really, really clear on our position on this issue, and to do everything that we can to make sure that the good triumphs over the evil.
Host 1:33:15
Do you think there's some fear in either in ACN as an organization or in some of the the countries that individually that are, that are in the region, that the military falling could have consequences for their style of rule in their respective countries?
Celito Arlegue 1:33:36
Yeah, most certainly. I mean, definitely, Cambodia would be concerned. I have, I have to say. So since many of the countries in the region are not really democratic themselves, so. So I'm sure they do not want what's happening in Myanmar to be a proceeding on what could happen to them. So that's why I think there is a hesitation and this hesitation is leading to inaction. But we have to recognize that what's happening in Myanmar, I mean, even three years after the coup, the military was not able to exercise control in the country. It tells us a lot about the the the passion of these people fighting for democracy and human rights. So and to think that they are by thing without the support of the international community. I mean, it it makes they're really, really admire ripple because I mean Eventually they would be. They have nothing but to credit but themselves.
Host 1:35:08
Yeah. Right. And you can imagine in the Southeast Asian region that we've been, we've spent this whole conversation talking about your aspirations for this kind of progress, this these progressive signs of hope in it too, to think that there could be a flowering of a democratic country and pulled up by its own bootstraps over one of the most oppressive and brutal military is not in the region, but of the world is historically in our recent history, the longest running civil war to think that they can do this backed into a corner, I mean, the sign that this sends to the world and to the region that that this can happen here. Yeah, this is not a foreign value. This is not a Western imposed value, this is something that the people are creating themselves, and that and what that can show to the peoples of other regions of Philippines and Thailand, Cambodia, and everywhere else, that they can also demand for their rights and demand for their rights in such a way what we're seeing in Myanmar, that blows me away is that there for many people I talked to you there is really an understanding that, that if these groups over here do not have their safety, I also don't have mine, it's not really a zero sum game that I'm hearing or seeing is really remarkable the degree to which there's a growing understanding that if we're really excluding certain groups entirely from the equation from the pie, then we're just setting in motion the same thing to happen again, and so have that kind of federal democracy, federal democracy charter can take place, which really does guarantee those rights and finds a way to come together. This is This is unprecedented in the region, and we're living through this potential history, we're getting closer and closer to this possibility becoming a reality and why it's not supported in the region, let alone around the world, let alone beyond support just media attention and interest. It's something that, that I personally don't really get.
Celito Arlegue 1:37:06
Yeah. I mean, it also baffles me as well. I mean, considering that in in the region. I mean, we have to recognize that. I mean, the countries here are quite diverse as well. Yeah. Malaysia, Singapore, Philippines, Thailand, right. So we could learn a lot from from from the Myanmar experience. So we should have a stake. I mean, on the on the success of federal government in Myanmar. In the Philippines, I'm not sure if you're aware, but we're also having elections next year for for the Muslim part of the country. So so we have we're testing this this particular system of government where they would have their own autonomous regional government with their own set of officials, so the person elections will will happen next year. At the same time as our midterm elections, so. So yeah, I mean, we're still in the process of trying to address that. That insurgency in the south. And we could learn much from each other. Yeah. Philippines from Myanmar, Myanmar, from the Philippines. On how how to make this work? Yeah. So So I think Philippines as a country, can really do much more to help in the in the Myanmar issue. But unfortunately, the that's not happening yet. I just want to say Joah that I am happy that whatever limitations or constraints that that some governments or regional organizations like I say, and base organizations like you were able to fill the gap when it comes to Myanmar. So I just want to thank you for your work. And just keep pushing, and eventually, I think we will see the light Indian. So thank you so much.
Host 1:39:42
Many of you know that in addition to running the Insight Myanmar podcast platform, we also formed a nonprofit to better Burma to respond to the terror that the Burmese military has been inflicting on the country and its people. We encourage listeners to check out our blog to see what work better Burma has been carrying out, along with The upcoming projects we hope to support right now, as I'm sure you all know, and today's interview only reinforced that the ongoing need is overwhelming. A donation of any amount goes towards those vulnerable communities who need to post and it will be so greatly appreciated. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian immediate missions, aiding those local communities who need it post. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission Better Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search Better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org. That's Better Burma. One word, spelled B, E, T, T, E, R, B, U, R, M, A.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar. Available at alokacrafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's Aloka Crafts spelled A , L , O, K, A, C, R, A, F, T, S, one word alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.