Transcript: Episode #313: Breathless In Burma

Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.

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Friedgard Lottermoser  00:03 

Solar Plexus, and there you agitate on it, Anita and nature and nature. And that you have to do quite a while. In the Burmese culture, the elephant has an even gate. It is one of the 32 characteristics of Lord Buddha, not understanding what Vipassana was about. I was only doing it, even when I was a teenager, because it's a sin, and I run about I've done something bad, but I was not so doubtful, because I was willing to take up Khin as a teacher, because I'm absolutely ignorant about the field of meditation. I'm only learning it the meeting of U Ba Khin and Webu Sayadaw. That was during the war. It was very close to the Japanese time. And then he heard that there is a monk practicing meditation in a cave. And so when after his work was finished, he was trying to meet him. And then he met him. 

01:04 

May all beings be happy and May peace prevail in the world you 

Host  01:23 

What is Burma's leading export commodities like Jade, rubber, antique might quickly come to mind. But personally, I would argue that Myanmar's most significant export to the global community is far less tangible, the gift of meditation rooted in traditions preserved by generations of Burmese monks and lay meditation teacher. This export transcends borders, enriching lives not with material goods, but with tools for mindfulness and insight. Even more amazing, it's a commodity that is freely given without any payment demanded in return. Our podcast frequently explores how this quiet revolution from the golden land has touched hearts and minds across the globe, and the interview that follows touches upon similar themes. Let's listen in and you're about to hear an interview with freed guard loader Moser. This is the second interview that we've released on this platform. We spoke to freed guard for a total of 45 hours. And the first episode was two hours. This is one hour, and so listeners are being treated to the third of 45 hours with this remarkable woman. We definitely recommend that listeners go back and check out the first episode if you haven't done so already. One note about these conversations with her freed guard spoke to our platform with the condition that none of these episodes could be released until her passing, and so that is why we are very carefully now releasing these to the world. And I'm very pleased to be able to present this third hour with her, which is full of so much information and so much to hear about her stories of Burma and meditation and her life. Before we get into this one hour, we're joined by ujagra, who is a monk who spent extended time in Myanmar, and he is going to help us to talk about this interview with freed guard to understand it at a deeper level, I find that freed guard's talk is it brings so many layers and nuances. It's so dense that every time I hear it, I hear something else, and every time every listener I speak to that also comes and hears her talk, they hear things that I don't catch, and so I think it's very valuable to be able to check in with another guest and another listener to this and try to pick apart some of the great nuance and layers and density of free guards talk to really get the most out of this very. Special Series. So with that introduction, I would like to introduce ujara. Before we get into talking about freed guard, I would like to ask ujara If you can give a brief background of who you are and your involvement. And I should mention that we've recorded a series of interviews with you and haven't yet come out, and so that's why listeners might not know about you. We'll be releasing this episode with free guard first, so your story will be coming out in short order. But for those who don't know about you and your background, if you can share a little bit about your time in Burma.  

U Jagara  05:32 

Yes, thank you. And also, we have the chance to listen to this very rare interview with regard that was a very special person, so in this relationship, then I can say eventually where I met her, because I know I knew her personally. And my background is that I am from Canada, from the French speaking part. And when I was a teenager, I was interested in meditation. My brother had gone to India, and he introduced me a little bit. And at some point, I wanted to have a real teacher. So I heard that there was a few teachers acquainted by U Ba Khin, and they were starting to teach. And somehow we contacted Mr. Robert hover, who was in California, and then we asked him what type of retreats he was offering nowadays, and he said that he was on his way to Europe, and he was planning to give a couple of retreats in Germany and also a couple of retreats in Switzerland. So very enthusiastically, you know, I asked him if I could join and say, Yeah, of course. So I ended up there, and it was really very nice, because, you know, it was just young kind of VPS coming from India, and then all kinds of, we could say freaks, but young seekers and all very original and very interested. And it was with the retreat. So this was, you know, important time of my life. And you know, the experience with Mr. Vav also really impacted me. But the thing is that sometimes later, maybe it was myself in think maybe 30 years later, or about anyway, I was in Burma or in a monastery in the mountains, and just like that, a German nun, you know, kind of elderly lady, appeared to my to my place, And she had heard about me, and she introduced herself. And you know, we find out that we were practicing also with the same tradition of BA Khin. And then when she asked me, where did you start to practice? And I said, well, in sucelon, and, you know, in 74 and the course was with Mr. Hover, and she said, Ah, well, I was the manager of that, course. So she was actually, you know, the retreat manager. And I remember, now, you know, I remember her as a, as a young lady. She must have been about, you know, early 30s. And so anyway, there was a kind of friendship there that was established on a common ground of dharma. And from there, we had long discussions for hours of all kinds of things, and about meditation, especially, and also about our life and specific encounters of the jihad with these great people, because this is what is interesting, is that she, with her age, with her experience, she is able to give us a look that is fresh about now these idealized, you know, idealized teachers that are not there anymore, but she was there.  

Host  09:19 

Thank you so much. And it's amazing to hear your background and how it intersects with freed guard in that way, how we're all connected. And yes, I think it's great to bring this interview to our listeners before we do just one question to set it up. So after we hear free guards one hour interview, we'll come back and we'll talk and give some commentary and analysis of what we've heard, but going into the interview, what? What would you like to encourage our listeners to pay attention to what? What? What would you like to put in their mind and set the context for what follows so they get the most out of it?  

U Jagara  09:56 

What follows? You know? What struck me is that she was a team. Nature in these in these days, and from a quite well, you know, very well educated background, and then a good family, and she was, you know, balanced and all of that. So Nevertheless, she was hungry, you know, Suu. She was really hungry for a spiritual meaning, meaning of life. And she was attracted with meditation, because she definitely entwited that this is what she wants. So when she joined, you know, the retreats, although back in apparently, was not that enthusiastic to have that young girl with inner retreat, but the enthusiasm that she had, the faith that that she had in the confidence that she had in her heart just to do these things. So this is this kind of enthusiasm, I think, will it will be worked for us to, you know, to wake up a little bit and to say, well, there is some myth there, huh? And if we really do these things, you have results. And, you know, it's a path that is, that is based on, well, it's based on intelligence, based on on something else, but it's something it's something concrete. So I think this is the, I think that's the main thing that that can be striking about it. And also, of course, you know, the way that she describes the meditation that she was going through this is also interesting, but definitely the enthusiasm and the devotion and the faith that she had with with the teacher, and also with the practice, and the result that she got out of it. Also, you know, what is funny also in this in this regard, is that at the beginning, she didn't know what she was doing. She was not understanding exactly what was the meditation all about. But she did it. She did it. And just, you know, after a few months or a few years, then the understanding came to be built up into into herself. And eventually she came to, you know, for those who don't know, she became quite a scholar. She did a MA on the aspects of Abhidhamma, you know, the patana. And some this patana is the chance that we back in his is using at the beginning of his retreats. And also, she did a PhD thesis on the all commentaries that were the source, the the material for the Webu that was compiled in Sri Lanka. So she did this research. But again, it's a kind of enthusiasm that you don't, that you that you are not getting involved if there was not a very deep sense of inspiration. So definitely, she was inspired so much, not only by the Buddhism, but also by the people who lived it. And then one thing that she said at some point, she said that if we want to understand the Burmese people, then we have to practice meditation, because meditation practice opens you up to the dimensions that come together with, well, with the philosophy and the way of life that the traditional Buddhists have, and especially the Burmese. You know, it's so much ingrained in their culture, it has so much influence their way of living, that if you are not in touch with that, well, you cannot understand them. 

Host  13:45 

Thank you. That's so remarkable. And I just want to give a couple of comments before we get into free guards interview to further set the stage and context for listeners. So after we recorded the first interview that has already been published and has been released, and hopefully listeners have heard by now. We then set an appointment for the next interview. I don't know how long it was, maybe a week or so, and when we started talking again. And what's remarkable is I want listeners to pay close attention to, really, the first 30 seconds or so of this interview, because it starts out with this, this almost overwhelming eagerness on the part of free guard that was like, like it was burning in her this whole time that she had ended that interview, two hours talking, and she had just gotten into the meditation and hadn't been able to describe in the details she wanted, and so just explodes on the scene with, like, I didn't even ask a question. It was just like, I need to tell you all of this. And then it was just, you know, just this, this outpouring of of detail and technical discovery and explanation of what she was going through and how she felt about it. And, you know, it was, it was remarkable to me at the time. And it's more so listening back now that she, if you hear these interviews back to back, it sounds. Like she was just continuing where she picked off, and she was continuing where she picked off, but it was with the hiatus of about a week, but she was just holding it in her mind with such force and conviction and excitement, you know, to want to cover what she couldn't before, and such clarity of what she wanted to say, that it really stood out that she just began this knowing exactly where she wanted to go. And again, we've done 45 hours of interviews. This was the third hour. This was before we had really established a strong rapport and dialog and connection. So she was carrying that. And then along with that, when the last 15 hours we recorded with her was in person in Sri Lanka, and I saw something similar in her, this dichotomy between the how she might talk in dealing with mundane matters of the world, and when the conversation would turn to meditation or to Burma, she was also very passionate about democracy and human rights and the people of Burma. And when she so, she would come into our place of recording, she would, as someone who was in older years, would have the difficulties associated with that and and have to care for the health problems happening. But when she sat in that chair, she would have, and I can't wait until people can see this because this is recorded on a high resolution video. I can't wait until this becomes available. She would light up and look like she was 30 years old, you know, she would just, she was brilliant. She would, you know, she would focus on what she wanted to say and just pinpoint, laser precision, talking for hours at a time without any questions or prompts and telling stories that would have us listening, sometimes holding back tears and sometimes holding back laughter. They were so enthralling. It was so remarkable to me to see this shift and and when she realized that it was time for her to talk about about Burma, or about meditation, this absolute clarity, and that's what listeners get in these first few minutes, certainly the whole hour, but in the first few minutes, you really hear this eagerness and exactitude coming out. And so I think that's a great way to set the scene. And so with that, let us pause here and treat listeners to the conversation that follows from last year with Friedgard Lottermoser. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  17:31 

So during my first course, when the 10 days were over, Sayagyi U Ba Khin asked, asked us to stay a few days more because in the coming week, there was an important festival, and if we were staying longer, then we would make significant progress in meditation. My mother didn't want to stay because in that week was my stepfather's birthday, but I was thinking that he will have another birthday next year. And I stayed then. And so I was there alone. And during these four days, I had this special experience, which was especially for U Ba Khin teaching. It is not taught by Goenka, but Goenka sometimes refers to it. And there is a special procedure. It is only for the people who are advanced in the Vipassana meditation, so they experience the 10 stages mentioned in the visa rimaga. Maybe we go to it another stage, talking about the 10 stages of Vipassana I mentioned in the visa di Maka. Okay, so I do do it briefly. You start with the Vipassana. You go into through several stages. Now in goenkas meditation, the stage of Bangla, which is about the third stage, and sometimes also referred to as free flow is popular, popularized as being very important, because only then you can understand change fully. But it's not the end of the different stages of Vipassana. And so the at the end of it that is not for everyone. It depends on the paramy of the meditator. So then you come to a stage where you the perceiving the change inside the body gets less and less and less. And then it gets very subtle. And then you have to do it carefully. And you go through the body again and again to see whether in some corner there is still something stuck up that will come and rise. And then we come to the center of your solar plexus, and there you meditate on it and its nature, and that you have to do quite a while and only when the. Has nothing left in the body that would feed, you know, this awareness of your of your individuality in the center of the body. Then only Uber can would try this ceremony. And there was a little bit of formula. Then he was there, and then someone to watch also was developed. And then he would meditate together as a student. And then he would say, you take a brief when he said, when I say, time's up, let go. Then you take a breath. You put some pressure on this subtle sensation in the middle of your body, just like tipping on it, but with your mind, and then let go of it. So that was the procedure. So then he said that when I heard the words, time's up, then I did as he instructed. And then after a while, this experience was finished. But in some cases it is very brief, just a moment. In some cases, it's very long. So in the case of Mrs. Ruth Dennison, she achieved it for one whole hour, and in her diary she wrote, but it seemed to be just a moment. So actually, you experience the absence of any San carvas. And so you can't describe it. You can only see the effects on yourself afterwards. And for that, I had to be taught you feel very light rubber. Khin said to me later, see how you walk. You walk like an elephant, which I didn't understand at all, because I thought elephants are very clumsy. But in the Burmese culture, the elephant has an even gate. It is one of the 32 characteristics of Lord Buddha. He walks evenly and measured, and then sometimes there is a sensation of coolness along your spine. So the two accounts I know about where it is described in writing is the diary of Ruth Denison, and the other one is a statement written by Mr. Hislop, where he describes the procedure, but he did not actually attain the state, but he describes it in writing. And there were several attempts. So at that time, I must say, I went home after these two weeks, and then I did another course in next month, in April. And during that course, I wrote a letter to my mother, or after the course, the second 10 day course, my mother was not in Burma at the time. She had to go back to Germany because the half year was over, and she had to sell her medical practice because we are going to say three days more in Burma. So I wrote to her, and I found that letter some time ago, and I was very surprised, because I said, Oh, this second 10 day, course, was not as calm as the first one. I was full of upheavals and uncertainty. And then I said about but maybe that is how it has to be. So that means I was actually not understanding what Vipassana was about. I was only doing it. It took me several, several courses to understand the gradual process and what is repeating. 

Host 23:31 

I just had some questions about the specialized instructions that Webu Khin gave you that you describe. It's so interesting to hear that first question is just these instructions that were given to you and given to other advanced students, given their state and what Mother Sayama and perhaps others were sensing. Were they uniform, in turn, in the sense that once someone was close or something was sensed, these instructions were then given, or were they customized? In the sense that, depending on who the person was, their background, the state they were at, the evaluations made a different set of customized instructions were given according to the person. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  24:15 

No they were it was the same procedure, but it absolutely depended only on the development and meditation of the individual teacher, and whether he was ripe for it or not. That was judged by U Ba Khin and with the advice of Mother Sama, no. 

Host  24:32 

And do you know if Goenka himself was ever given these set of instructions as a meditator by U Ba Khin as a teacher? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  24:39 

Well, there are some people who cannot attain this state, but that means their parami Maybe even greater. But Goenka calls it the nibbani Dip. He is talking about it in the long courses. I have done a number of 45 day courses, but in not in such an open way as U Ba Khin did so. Have to know what he's talking about, but he does mention it. And that means, if the parami is very great, and they are people that will continue in samsara until Arimathea comes, and they will be close disciples of Arimathea Buddha. So their parami in the present time, which is the Sasana of Gotama Buddha is already very great, because that coming Buddha is more powerful even than Gautama, according to Theravada theory. 

Host  25:31 

And then in your experience of having received these instructions and practiced them, did you the experience of of of this, these advanced instructions and and the experience you had while following them, did you feel like a changed person afterwards? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  25:48 

Well, and found that out only when I came home. No, because, I mean, remember, it was my first course, and I was there only two weeks, and it happened in the four days when I was without my mother. So what, after the first course, what I observed is now I know Vipassana, and that means I didn't have to run about with a bad conscience. Because, I mean, I've been quite a religious minded person, even from childhood, because my grandmother read the Bible every day, and she looked after me in the absence of my mother several years. But I had this one thing weakness to that I like food and and so, because I was born during the war, after the war, when we were taught, we always thought to eat everything that came on our plate and not to waste food and finish everything and how to choose. So when I was in West Germany as a teenager, our mother used to buy apples and oranges so we could eat as many apples as we wanted, but the oranges, we had only one each, and so if a hungry teenager wants to have another orange, she's actually eating the sisters orange. And then you do that, and you run about with the with the bad conscience, because you have done that. You've taken what is not given to you, and you have no means to replace it, because I can't just go off miss my pocket money to buy another orange it. I will have to go to the market, and maybe my pocket money was not enough for that. And so as a teenager, before we came to Burma, I suffered a lot from these little things, or maybe I secretly knew where my mother kept her key to her cupboard, and she had locked the chocolate and I knew the key. I took the key and ate a piece of chocolate, things like that. And that used to trouble me, even when I was a teenager, because it's a sin, and I run about I've done something bad. But if you have Vipassana meditation, for one thing, you don't need to have a bad conscience, because the karma is already done as you can't change it. But on the other hand, if you practice your meditation, you can reduce the urge to do the wrong thing, and that is something you can do yourself. You don't need to have to pray and please, Christ and God help me to resist. You. Sit down. You sit down. You you practice every person and the urge to do the wrong thing, this dissolves. I find that very, very valuable after, even after my first course. 

Host  28:27 

Right? And then after that first course and those specialized instructions you received, did you feel that you yourself reached any kind of state, or did Mother Sayama or U Ba Khin affirm or inform you of anything? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  28:43 

I didn't feel they informed me, and they said it's only, it was only very brief and but one thing is, after that, that cause and after this event, they came and asked me whether my Dr Colonel was not my father. And I was very surprised, because we came there with Dr Kerner and his wife and his daughters, and we were three of us. Actually, my mother had five children, but he was our stepfather. We didn't go to Burma and said, Oh, this is Dr Kerner, and we are his step children, and we went as his daughter, so they had no means of knowing that he is not my own father. But they asked me after the first course, and then I say Yes, bro, Connor is my stepfather. And apparently it is so that when I finished my meditation, and the meditation was good, they shared the marriage with my parents, and my father was already dead at that time came, and he said, Saha, do look at me. Look at this girl who is meditating. 

Host  29:48 

Your father came. What do you mean by that? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  29:50 

From another, wherever he was reborn. 

Host  29:54 

And how did you experience that? Were you? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  29:57 

No, that was that was noticed by Mother who can see things 

Host 30:01 

Oh my gosh! 

Friedgard Lottermoser 30:03 

And it, and it's not the only occasion that has happened. I've heard about another occasion where a dead person who is closely related to a mediator, when sharing of marriage is taking place, can come. 

Host  30:17 

So this was after your first course that you after my first course. And so you're 17 years old, you've taken your first ever experience of meditation, and you're then being informed after that course that your dead father has come to rejoice in your merits. How did you make sense of that at that age, at that time? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  30:35 

Well, I thought it is, it is a Buddhist Suu, but I was not so doubtful, because I was willing to to take up Khin as a teacher, because I had, I'm absolutely ignorant about the field of meditation. I'm only learning it. No. Then I said, Oh, that's very strange, because you must see that I hardly know my peer, my father. It I have met him three times of my life. It is almost nothing for brief periods when I was a very small child. 

Host  31:07 

Amazing, what and what was your impression of Mother Sayama, and the time you spent around her? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  31:13 

Well, I didn't, I didn't question her gift. She was the one. I think I've told you that on the first day when U Ba Khin told me how to do Anapana, and I hope he preventulated, because I thought you have to breathe and breath like that. And then he went to office, and he wasn't there. So then a woman opened the door and looked at me, and she didn't speak English, and she showed with her hands that I shouldn't breathe so hard. And then she showed me how to breathe softly and showing with her hands that was madness. Her husband, Uchit, he was working in U Ba Khin office, but his native town was Moe, and Moe is also the place where where Mother Sayama was born, either in the city or in a village. But when she married, she was an orphan, and she was brought up by her grandmother, and she didn't have any siblings, only a cousin, and so she didn't have a good education. She was a good she learned how to cook and how to make herself pretty, but she only could write her name. She couldn't even read and write Burmese, fluent.  

Host  32:29 

She was illiterate. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  32:31 

Yeah. But later, later, of course, she has been to she's been to England and all that. So definitely, by the time she died, when she was more than 90, she could speak some English, and I have also seen that she could write her name, because we went to saya de place, and there she signed the guest book she is. She had made him a married and educated man, and she lived with him in the city, and she came. She came to as a meditator. Her daughter was born. She was 24 when she took meditation. She was 26 very young. And of course, by that time, she lived already several years in Rangoon. It is only before her marriage that she she was in this situation, and she picked up, of course, the habits of how to be a ragun lady, but it wasn't her background. She had to acquire it. But that doesn't mean her manners were her manners were very soft spoken and very gently, and she had very fair skin. She was pretty, pretty. Also, I remember her that she spent a long time on putting the Tanaka on her face. You know, that's the Burmese past the woman put on their face. 

Host  33:46 

Was it unusual, or did it stand out that Sayagyi ubean would have recognized a woman, and it sounds like a young woman at that as having reached this advanced stage and really, in essence, promoting her to greater position at the center at that time. I mean, it was enough that you had Sayagyi Ba Khin as a lay person was teaching meditation, but he was an older man who was experienced and he had a government position. Mother Sayama at that time was a younger woman with not that standing. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  34:16 

He was 25 years older than mother sam U Ba Khin, but ba chi Tun, I know that all from do Suu. Do Suu knew mother sama very well. But do Suu had a British grandfather, and she was educated in a Mission School and but she was born in Burma. She spent all her life in Burma, and when Mother sama was developed, she was very close to her, and she explained it to me that she accepted her as being having a greater part of me. And at the beginning, when Mother San I learned how to meditate, I wasn't there. So I only go by what Suu told me, she had a very fast development. And in fact, in case of Mother Sam, when she before she started to meditate, her husband went there first. Now, because her husband was in U Ba Khin office, and U Ba Khin taught meditation to he didn't teach woman at the beginning. Oh, really, yeah, I think Joah Suu was the first woman he taught and well he thought, maybe meditation is like a monk, and he is a man, so he should teach only. 

Host  35:27 

And what made him change his mind?  

Friedgard Lottermoser  35:31 

Well, because his disciples were the family people, and they wanted their wives and family also to meditate, they persuaded him. But it was particularly do Suu, who was a widow, who became the first chief disciple. And mother sama came to see U Ba Khin two years later only. And the first experience of meditation I have told I've heard about Mother sama is that she asked her husband, now you are spending so much time with U Ba Khin meditation, so what do you do there? And they were at home going to sleep. They were sitting on their bed. So her husband, uchitin, set up, and he told her how to do Anapana, sitting down. You have to do your breathing. That was at home, not in the meditation center, and know U Ba Khin about. And then mother sama sat down for about one minute or two, and she did the breathing. And then she saw a big light, a yellow light, and then she said, Oh, if you meditate, you see a BA of soap. And then she went to sleep, but that means the BA me came, who can see the BA of soap after meditation for one, a big ba of soap. So later, when she took the 10 day course and so on, her development was very fast, and it was not so easy. Also for her, it was hard on her, because when she came to very high stages, she needed protection, because the environment is not all favorable. You pick up negative vibrations from the environment. So There were stages when she was sick and she was unconscious and all that, but her family were all meditated. So by and by, of course, she could understand that. But the very difficult meditators, they all mother Sam, I never faced. She only watched them from a distance, and then she told others to go and tell them so and so. 

Host  37:36 

What do you mean difficult meditators? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  37:39 

Oh, someone  who came with very negative forces. That is sometimes, maybe you are a Jesuit who only wants to learn to test U Ba Khin Webu whether it's useful for spreading Christianity in Burma. That happened, that did happen? Yes, if U Ba Khin thought that he can teach the person, he would accept them. 

Host  38:00 

These are incredible stories. Maybe we can tell them one by one. You you the first story involves you started a Jesuit coming who with a Christian background, tell us what happened with him. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  38:12 

I don't know details. I'm just mentioning as a case. I heard about it only remotely. But what I do more in detail is that the wife of an American ambassador who lived and she lived in Thailand, and she was very interested in meditation, and she tried various meditations, I don't know many countries, but maybe particularly in Thailand. And then she came to Burma, Webu Khin, and she was very impressed, and they accepted her for 10 days, but they had so much difficulty teaching her that they didn't want to accept her again. 

Host  38:45 

Why was that? What was the difficulty? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  38:50 

The mental forces that were associated with her were very hard to handle. 

Host  38:58 

And did they know why or what type of forces these were? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  39:03 

Well, they wouldn't go to into a tale, and particularly they wouldn't say that to her face, because it's very impolite. 

Host  39:10 

Yeah, that's a pretty intense thing to hear.  

Friedgard Lottermoser  39:13 

Yeah, but so they made an excuse, but internally, I heard that they didn't want to accept her because they were scared 

Joah  39:23 

Of the forces that were within her? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  39:25 

Yeah, because the teacher who is teaching he he is in contact, and he's fighting with these forces. So in my case, in my first course, there was no difficulty. But later, when my family didn't come and they lived in this military compound, U Ba Khin gave a lot of attention to me for about six months, and I had another course, which was one month longer. That was in October, and I repeated this experience, which I just described in the first course, and it was longer, it was a. About eight minutes. And after that, he expected that maybe my father would see that and would also take a meditation course. Even U Ba Khin came to our house to visit it. And you know, I told you about the birds of Burma, the present he gave and he asked Yes. He often asked me, Does your father watch the birds? Explaining to me that if he watching the birds and using the book, then he remember that it is a gift from U Ba Khin, you know, like this. But my father was too busy, and he was involved in all that. He was not living in a military compound when he met U Ba Khin in Germany. He did that only in Burma, and only the three years, three and a half years in Burma, was the only time he worked for that firm. Even after, when he left Germany, he left the firm, also he found some other employment. So I had about six months, which was a gradual introduction to meditation. I went to the meditation very often, almost every weekend, and because I was not at home during that time when my sisters did a driving license and things like this. So my mother tried to stop me and but I couldn't be stopped. And then there was the event six months later, in October, when U Ba Khin asked me to bring a written statement that my parents agreed me for me to take this one month's education, one month's meditation, and my mother wasn't too keen on on signing it, but I said, if you don't sign it, when if you don't sign it, I will run away. I will go back to Germany and get get a job and save money, and then I'll do it. So she had to do it. You know, the way teenagers are, they can be quite forceful. So she did sign it. Of course, I didn't say that to Uber Kim, but you didn't have to say happy. He would know. He would know, because the mental vibrations are quite different. They could sense that. Of course, at that time, I wasn't so sensitive. So that was a successful course. But after coming back to to my home, and there was no difference, my family didn't appreciate and then we can try to tell Bindu to come to meditate. It was about a year. I had a really hard time. I came whenever he permitted me, and I tried to meditate at home. And eventually I left home. I came to the students hostel. My mother didn't want that also No, but eventually she had to say yes, because I must tell you, you know enough about the world that teenagers, mostly, if they're determined, they can make their parents do the things they want. And only sometimes I was thinking, Well, my mother has five daughters. I have only one mother, so if she doesn't agree, I can't go and ask another one. No, yeah, okay. 

Host  43:03 

These are just wonderful stories. My mind is so full of different things I want to know and I want to bring your voice and experiences to our listeners. It's just so wonderful. So I'm wondering where to go next. Maybe the logical next progression is hearing more of your story as you progress, because as you're following Khin and becoming developed as a meditator, we do learn more about the context and your interaction with the people in the center and everything else. So I think in our explorations and tangents, we've left off after this first course that you were asked to stay longer for you then took a second course, which you reference as being hard. So talk about your next half year or so of developing and taking courses, learning more about ubiquin, the other people at the center, the center itself, and Myanmar as well, if that fits into it. And your story. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  43:56 

Yeah, I must tell you that I absolutely forgot that I had taken a 10 day course in April. I only found that letter, which I've written to my mother, talking about it, that is the evidence that I did take a course, and it was very troubled, and I was blissfully saying, oh, oh, maybe that is because ups and downs of life and so on. That means I understood really nothing about the nature of Vipassana. I was still in a very even though I had this deep experience, but I didn't know how it works in everyday life, if you practice it. But in the next month, in May, that is the full moon of visa Buddha, say of enlightenment. There was the visit of venerable Webu saya law in U Ba Khin center, and I stayed there while he came. That was not a meditation course, but this was very interesting, because he came with a retinue of several monks, and there were many disciples of U Ba Khin who came every day and offered food to the to the. Aung San. And then the venerable you said I would give a sermon. And I didn't know Burmese, so do Suu had to tell me, in brief, what he had said. And then there was this American, the LA Shin maid Ari. She was my neighbor. We had to sleep in the caves, the lower caves, because the San die was so full. And I think I've told you about me that we when we talked about. 

Host  45:26 

Yes and yes, her story is fascinating. And I'm going to have to ask you to tell the full story again, for our audience. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  45:34 

The meeting of U Ba Khin and Webu Sayadaw that was during the war. No, it was very close to the Japanese time, but U Ba Khin still had the job with the British government to as where he controlled the accounts for the railways. That is how he came to Joah SE and then he heard that there is a monk practicing meditation in a cave. And so when, after his work was finished. He tried. He was trying to meet him, and then he met him. And he's often talked about it, how it was, how he lived in a little bamboo hut, and the people said, oh, a lay person, don't go here. The Seattle never comes out at this time. He doesn't meet people. He comes only for his meals and the So Uber kid couldn't wait until because he was a visitor in Joah SE and his work was finished. So he just was outside the bamboo height, and he paid respects to him. And then he said, I think mentally, or whether he saw both, both mentally as well as verbally, and said, when Webu Suu, I've come here from Rangoon, I'm also a meditator, Buddhist meditator, and I'd like to meet you. And then, to the great surprise of the nuns who were there, the door was open, and Webu Sayadaw came out in the accompaniment of a swarm of mosquitoes, because he said there was other mosquito net inside. And he talked to him, and Webu Sayadaw talked to U Ba Khin about we pass and Webu Sayadaw asked him, well, lay person, how did you practice and how do you practice Vipassana? And U Ba Khin said to them, oh, even now, as I talk to you, I can experience the rise and fall in my body. So then Webu said, Oh, that is very amazing. Did you stay in a cave for a long time? Then uberein said, No, I went to the other side in the village where said that she was teaching us. And I stayed only a few days, and I learned Anna, Pana and wepasana, and then I went back to Rangoon and continued to practice. And sometimes the teacher came and visited me, and then Webu Saya, I said, this is very amazing. I had to practice in here alone, not meeting anybody for a long time. Your parames must be very great, and you should teach it to teach this to others, because it is Buddha's instruction. So on the very first meeting there in Joah saya in the bamboo hat. In front of the bamboo hat, Webu Sayadaw reinforced U Ba Khin and encouraged him and told him to start teaching. Don't wait. He said, No, and so that is why, because he was instructed by this Venerable Monk who was a hermit and advanced meditator, U Ba Khin, started to teach on the same day, and his first disciple was the railway Superintendent of Joah saya railway, and he had to sit on a table in the railway carriage, because that's the only facilities. They had to do meditation. But the thing happened when the British were there, otherwise U Ba Khin wouldn't have been doing this inspection of the accounts. No right, because he did it only until the Japanese took over the country.  

Host  49:04 

That first meeting, then something like 11 or 13 years later, that led the way for Webu Sayadaw to eventually come to Rangoon and visit IMC. That is not the visit you're describing, but maybe you can share what you know of that first visit by Webu Sayadaw, just to give some context and then describe the visit that you took part in. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  49:27 

So by and by, after the war, Webu Sayadaw got well known as an Arahat, but he still didn't go anywhere. It is only the local people in Joah saya who respected him, and then some people from town who heard about it. And then, after U Ba Khin had started his meditation center, it may have been about 1953 I'm not definite about it, then he wanted to invite Webu Sayadaw to visit him in Rangoon. And the people said. Oh, he will. Won't come. He never leaves Joah se, but U Ba Khin said, Never mind. And he sent two of his senior disciples to Joah SE and invite him. So these two people came back and to their great surprise, the Sayadaw, who never went anywhere. He said, Oh, U Ba Khin meditation. Then he said, Oh, you want to invite me? Yes, I will come. When are we going? He was ready to come straight away, well, so of course, they had to make him wait until the next day, because they had to arrange the railway tickets for him to go down to to Rangoon. And then he stayed several days at at IMC. This visit is described by the kapiya of Webu Sayadaw, who was very close to him, but he the description is not quite right, because as far as I've heard from IMC, it was really he came because he wanted to visit IMC. But this kapiya, at that time, he was not so close to U Ba Khin. He was a neighbor of U Ba Khin, but he didn't meditate with U Ba Khin because he was drinking alcohol, and he thought that if he meditates with U Ba Khin, he'd have to stop drinking alcohol. And that is what his nephew told me later after he was dead. Okay, so he mentions another lady, so at least Webu Sayadaw was in, was invited by many people after that, and when I met him, it was 1960 in Moe in May. So there at least seven years after between his first visit to IMC and the visit where I was present.  

Host  51:41 

So that captures us up to up to speed on who Webu Sayadaw is, and something of Webu Khin and Webu relationship. There's much more detail to go into that we'll hopefully explore over the course of these conversations, but I think that gives enough background to understand what was happening in this may visit that you described. So this is your again, your I believe you're still 17 years old this time. You've just taken your first course. You're new to Burma, and now you find yourself with your friend Suu. Suu at IMC, as the famous and the revered Webu Sayadaw is taking another visit to the center and to begin So describe this. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  52:19 

Yeah, well, he was the first monk I ever met. Oh, yeah, and it was exactly two months after my first meditation course at IRC. And before he came up, Khin had told me that he was an Arahat. So of course, we have respect for him, but I couldn't speak enough Burmese. I couldn't hear what he was saying. I had to rely on Suu, and she didn't give me a full translation. She gave a summary of what he said. What I remember about is that on one occasion, he said to the lay audience that even though we're lay people, and they were meditating and Suu all very good, but they should also keep the eight precepts, not only during the meditation course, but also as much as they could, emphasizing on sila. But the other things I don't remember, but simply, I learned a lot. I must say that this meditation experience in March was really my key to understanding the Burmese people, even though, yes, even though I had already been in Burma several months. How? So? Yeah, well, it is because there, there were many Burmese people. And I started where Burmese dress. I couldn't get many, because I had to buy the cloth from my pocket money, and that was not very big. So I had two sets, one set, then later another one. But my first indie, my second indie, I think I don't know, one of them was cut by Mother siyama, because, because I took it, yeah, that I had, I bought a loan Jean that, of course, my mother permitted us. We could choose what we wanted. So that is, of course, just a single seam, though it becomes a lonely then you have to add a black piece on top. Not but about the blouse, I had to use a piece of cloth that was given to us free, because it there was a German man who was trying to sell cloth in Burma, and he had samples, and these samples he didn't want anymore, so my second set of lungi and blouse was what he gave us. It was not made in Burma. It was made in Germany to sell it in in Burma, and it was a free gift, and that was my second and the mother said, I cut the cut the blouse. I don't know. Maybe I gave it to a tailor. It was very thin lace, so it was difficult to make. Yeah, and not only that, also how to I understood much more. You see my my other sister, who also run the University. For three years pre medical but she mixed with the with the Anglo Indians, and she drove a car and she didn't medical students, of course, are not so interested in Burmese culture. So even after saying my parents and my two sisters, after staying in Burma for three years, they didn't really know what Burmese food is that much, but I ate it at the center, because they cooked there. Later, when I stayed with a Burmese family, and my mother came to visit me and stayed with this family, and she said to me, Oh, I thought that our cook was making Burmese food, but with the Burmese food I eat here, that tastes much better, and I tell you, the cook we had was not, not a professional cook, and he cooked, what is the previous cook? Had told him, the Westerners want to eat, and they thought it's food. You are so isolated, you know, if you only stick to the embassy and as a group of, group of Westerners. 

Host  56:02 

And and when you were at IMC and spending more time there were you one of the only, if not the only foreigner, most of the time, who was involved, 

Friedgard Lottermoser  56:11 

Yes, most of the time, most of the time. Of course, the first time, the first visit, I was miss my parents, over three of us. And the first course, my mother was there. And then in in May, when Webu Sayadaw came, we was there. She is American. But afterwards, I don't, at least in the first half year, I didn't meet any other foreigners. This was 1969 No, it was in 1960. 

Host  56:37 

1960. Okay, so my, I was thinking about the year, because, of course, goenkas first course was 1955 so you would have been involved in the center five years on from his first course. He was regularly taking courses at that time. But he was also a very involved businessman with lots of lay responsibilities, at least until 1962 in the coup. So I'm wondering what kind of presence Goenka was at the center during those events and the meditation, and just what you saw of him integrating as a student into what was happening at IMC.  

Friedgard Lottermoser  57:11 

Well, Webu Khin used to tell the story how he had the migraine headache and he came to meditate because of that, and he wouldn't accept him if he came only for medical reasons, because he said, I will teach you only if you come there to get out of suffering. But you don't need to be a Buddhist, and your migraine headache will disappear as a side effect. But I won't teach you just to to cure your headache. That is the that is the main thing. And that story he told frequently because it so happened that the headache was better the moment Goenka promised to do the course, even before he started meditation. And then when he thought, he thought he didn't need to meditate because the headache was gone. It came back because he didn't keep his promise.  

Host 58:07 

I see. Wow. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  58:12 

Because he was so, so integrated in his Hindu community with Hinduism, because his father, particularly, he was so such a traditional Hindu. The grandmother, the grandfather, came from Raja Burma, and he did that because he liked Burma, even though he was an Indian, and it was the British. It was a British province of India at the time when he came. But he even went to Mandalay, where the royal king was still there, outside the British Field, and he did business his grandfather, but his father, who Goenka, father, who was born in Burma, he was a very traditional, staunch Hindu. He was a poor man, you know, and young, I think Goenka has written about it like there's a young man from Raja San came and he rode a camel. Then he took a train. Then in Calcutta, he took a boat. Finally reached Yangon, and he started a business. And then he thought who he would earn more if he went to the native Raja place, because there was not so much competition from other traders. And then he hired Moe, and they sold cloth and went to the San states, the mountains, not in the royal court. And he had all his cash in a belt, rupees, silver rupees, his grandfather. And once, he forgot it, and he noticed it only too late, after they had already several hours straight with the MOE. And then he was very frightened, because all his capital was in this belt, and he had left it at the open it's an open building where anyone can Can, can spend the night, but it is not locked. And. Has no furniture in it. So if he thought, if he comes back after two weeks, it's finished, it's gone. But the mulit said, No, he refused to return. He said, We have gone too far. Don't worry, anyone who sees it will know it doesn't belong to him. And then he didn't believe it. He was already counting his laws. And then after he came back, after several weeks, definitely his silver belt, his belt with the silver was there. This is how honest that Burmese society was before it was sort of subjected to upheaval under the Burmese kings. There is even a story that a diamond ring was left on the marketplace in Mandalay in the middle of the road, and for several days no one touched it.  

Host  1:00:48 

Right, right? Yeah, yeah. And so when you were starting to come around the center, Goenka was becoming an old student. He was, yeah, of course, five years ago. What kind of presence was he around there? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  1:01:00 

I never met him, actually. That is one thing is because we didn't have strict gender separation, but there was a sort of convention. The men were on one side of the pagoda. They had their own quarters there, and the woman were on the other side of the pagoda with their own and they met, would meet only, say in the dining hall, but they would sit at separate tables, and then they would meet in the damayor. But I was a very young woman, and he was a senior man, a married man with a family, so I knew who he was. I knew his face and what he looked like, but I don't remember talking. Yes, I remember one thing when Webu Sayadaw came Goenka donated a carpet to the the international meditation center that was meant as a cover, covering for the preaching Hall. It was a large carpet from Raja San, gray and blue. Before that, they would sit on the bare floor, and some of it was covered with linu, but not the whole floor. But on occasion of Webu Sayadaw visit, that very big carpet was was brought, and I was sitting in the dama hall when they came and brought it. So I had to get up because it covered the whole floor, and I couldn't sit there because they were going to spread the carpet. That is why I know about it. That was Goenka Dana in May 1060 I think his family members were not so common in the first year when I was there, they came, later, say, from for one thing, the first two years, I didn't know many people there. I just came for meditation, and so only by the time I was a little bit used, and then I knew who is who, and on the on the male side, I know even less. But I do know that Chief disciples, the Burmese ones and the Indian ladies, they came only later, and many of them didn't speak English. There's only one that I ever spoke to she was fluent in English. But in the end, when all the family members of Goenka came and they were their saris, there were so many of them that the Burmese women start to grumble, we have no place to come to the meditation center because it's full of Indians. And that was increasing after U Ba Khin had become a monk and he decided to train Goenka to teach meditation. 

Host  1:03:37 

When did he make that decision to start training Goenka to teach meditation?  

Friedgard Lottermoser  1:03:41 

Became a monk in 1965 and according to his diary, that is the book on U Ba Khin slide written by his son, where he uses U Ba Khin diary and whatever he heard from his father,U Ba Khin was thinking that if he meditates at Webu Sayadaw place as a monk that will boost up his spiritual power to such an extent that finally he will be able to break the barriers. Because couldn't get a passport. He tried before that, he had an invitation to India, and the government had changed so much they did not cooperate. No. And so after that, he thought, well, I can't go to India. I can't go outside Burma, but these foreigners are living here right under my nose. So I will teach them. And that worked, then in the end. 

Host  1:04:33 

So so you're saying that your understanding is that when U Ba Khin realized that he himself would not get a passport to be able to travel abroad to teach, he realized that he couldn't rely on his own teaching in order to export this practice around the world. He needed to promote others. So his appointment of teachers was really a condition, a consequence of he himself not being able to have his own passport, is that. Right?  

Friedgard Lottermoser  1:05:01 

That is so and it is quite definitely that he made definite plans after he was a monk, yeah, because before that, only mother Samah was considered a teacher. And then do Suu left U Ba Khin in 65 but while she was still there, she had taken retirement because U Ba Khin was planning to go abroad. And even when her daughter had been a meditator since she was eight years old, and then she came to university, and then U Ba Khin told the mother, let her take English as a major subject. Then if we go abroad to teach the Dhamma, two of you can be a prayer to teach meditation you and your daughter. That never materialized, but he started to make these kinds of vague plans. And then there are these appointment letters, which he has written to his foreign disciples that He empowered to teach the to teach meditation on his behalf. And they're all written at a special date, I think it's briefly after Goenka left, or something. Goenka left to India in 6569 69 because he got the permission to leave, he got a visa for India on a Burmese passport, because his mother was in India and was sick. That was really, yeah. 

Host  1:06:22 

This is all so interesting. And and one. And just to go back to my original question, you know, one of the reasons why I was interested, if about your interactions with Goenka as a student and when you first started coming around the center in 1960 is that I know he took his first course in 1955 we have these kind of like check marks in in his life as a student and as a teacher. And what's in between, those check marks are really just a sea of ignorance that there's not much documented where we know that he took his first course in 55 and as you mentioned, we know when he started to be trained as a teacher, and then when he left Burma for India to begin his teaching career. But in the meantime, there's some color there, and some information that I think would be very interesting to uncover. And I also know that obviously 1962 was the military coup and so which had a very extreme effect and consequences to the non ba Mar residences, especially the Anglos and the Chinese and the Indians, they were most affected by the militarization, as well as business owners as well and ethnic minorities. I mean, we can go on and on, and so I know that up to 1962 I would assume that Goenka and his family would have continued to be very involved in the successful businesses that they were running. And so my assumption not based on any evidence that I've read or anything I've heard, but my assumption would have been that Goenka might have been something of a casual student from 55 at least until 62 when he had so many business interests to look after, but that after the military coup in 62 and after the nationalization of his business that, and I think he even referenced this at one point, that his loss of business was what made him turn more towards the meditation. And so that's why I'm also curious, in 1960 which would have been before, two years before the coup, when you were still going to the when you started going to the center, to what degree Goenka was involved there as a student, and to what degree he might have still been just a casual meditator, just coming during the limited free time he had. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  1:08:29 

Well, he he did come. And I remember that that in the fine in the last two years, they sent a bottle of milk regularly for to drink with a car because milk was hard to get in Burma and the Indians have a better access to milk. 

Host  1:08:47 

Oh, you mean the Goenka family was giving this as a gift. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  1:08:51 

Yes to U Ba Khin because he was interesting elderly. But I do think it took several years until the Goenka family, particularly the ladies, were ready to do Vipassana meditation under Burmese Buddhist that that is written in the book by Stuart. I think we have, we have talked about it. Yeah, you know that visit of Webu Sayadaw in March 1960 there was also the Hislop family, and Mr. Hyslop was a disciple of the Mahesh Yogi, who is a Hindu teacher. And Goenka knew that Mahesh Yogi very well. He stayed in his Goenka house when he came to Burma, that Mahesh Yogi. So according to Mr. Hyslop, he talked with Goenka, with Goenka about the difference between U Ba Khin and Mahesh Yogi, and they more or less agreed that they were teaching the same thing. That is far from our own impression of what the actual facts were. But these two people, this American who was had done courses with U Ba Khin and was also in Mahesh Yogi. Ah, what is it? TM, meditation? No, because he was close enough to this American, his love was close enough to to Mahesh Yogi that he sent. He came to India to acquire a piece of land where the Mahesh Yogi should have his main center in the Himalayas. And from there, he came to Burma and started to meditate with U Ba Khin. So both of them were aware, because I have heard himself U Ba Khin speak about this Mahesh Yogi when these two people were not there, and I don't think he approved of him, but he only thought it was a useful link to get other people who are interested in meditation to learn from U Ba Khin himself and but in the case of the Goenka family, apparently U Ba Khin permitted the Goenka ladies to meditate with Mahesh Yogi in Rangoon, so they would start to meditate even what made It was a Hindu meditation, and only after that they came to Ubu. Kyaw, it amazed me, because if anyone else had done it, he would not have accepted them. He did that because he realized that Goenka couldn't fully develop his capacity if he was surrounded by a family who drained his strengths, because they didn't cooperate. So that took a long time. And on the other hand, you are you're also right in that in 62 the as I saw it, I have said in my last interview, there was almost no change, but that was in my life. For many others, it was a big change, and because it started the wave of nationalization, it started the wave of joint ventures, which was good for my father's business. They threw out all the missionaries, and they took away Goenka, so it's considerable fortune. They nationalized it. I mean, in some book they write, they even the military wanted to put him into prison, but that I have never heard before, Goenka. 

Host  1:12:04 

Yeah, so 62 he lost everything. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  1:12:07 

I don't know whether it was 62 or shortly after that. It was not directly after the coup. No, it took time, and of course, they may not have started with Goenka, what? Because I was also not so familiar that I know their family circumstances, but I do know what happened at the university and how it came gradually and at the beginning, the Burmese public, they were quite pleased that all these Christian nuns were educating the children. You know, they forced the children to read the Bible in school, even though the parents were Buddhists, when I first heard that, I got very angry. But this is what was common practice, even even later, five year old children have to go to the church. And one child was crying, I'm Buddhist, I don't want to go to church. Then the nuns are forcing him. 

Host  1:13:00 

You know something I've always wondered about that I wonder if you can answer, is that I have read so many books and learn and talk to so many people who have given background into the 1940s 1950s and early 1960s of Burma. This is and especially when you're looking at Rangoon, this is just a fascinating and tumultuous and and and dynamic time of many different forces that are happening with many from communists to fascists to to democratic forces, ethnic religious minorities, so many that are in This bubble, that are are acting in different ways. I've of the reading I've done and what I've learned about the major personalities of this time, and of course, Ne Win after 1962 and then, on the other hand, I've read and heard so much about U Ba Khin and U Ba Khin, not just as a meditation leader and meditation teacher and dedicated practitioner, but also his place in government. I'm really curious what you know of where U Ba Khin fit into this environment of Rangoon in the 1950s leading to the 60s. Do you know anything about his relationship with some of the great figures at this time, particularly like who knew and Ne Win and what kind of relations they had. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  1:14:27 

Well, he was close to UNO before Burmese independence, and in the early years, I think, when they got the piece of land and the pagoda was built, and at the inauguration of the pagoda, uno was even present. There are photos about it. But that happened before I came to Burma, and later when we knew was more a scene in maharishi's time center, because that was also founded, and they supported the meditation of Maharishi Joah by wanting to give the. Government money for the meditators, and U Ba Khin was the accountant general. And U Ba Khin was spending money the country didn't have, and the accountant General has to see that the prime minister doesn't spend money the country doesn't have. So he argued that it was very difficult to measure the success of the meditation, and he that means he we can put an obstacle to the meditators in maharishi's center to receive financial support from the unu government. And that may have been one of the one of the reasons why he was not on such good terms. That is, they wouldn't say that in public. But the main thing is, they said that if they are disciples of a monk and U Ba Khin is a lay person, then he couldn't interfere. But it was a little bit more. He did not quite approve of his method. 

Host  1:15:59 

Also, U Ba Khin did not approve of U Nu’s method. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  1:16:00 

of Mahat method. 

Host  1:16:03 

oh, of Mahathir method. I see so I was under So U Ba Khin reluctance to fund a news initiative that this could be seen a couple different ways, and that's what I'm curious about. One way it could be seen is that U Ba Khin did not necessarily support or align with the particular method of Mahasi, and so didn't necessarily want to support that. Another way to see it is that U Ba Khin had a certain understanding of separation of church and state, and it didn't matter that Mahasi was the teacher. Any Buddhist initiative that was being funded by state money would be something that his account in general, U Ba Khin would have been a bit concerned about. So which, which of those two possibilities do you feel? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  1:16:48 

I think it is not against Mahasi. It is against the fact that meditation should be paid for by the Government. 

Host  1:16:56 

Right, right? And, of course, unu ended up making Buddhism a state religion, and not even beyond the religion. He uno famously said that if one member of every family in the country were of a passionate meditator, that this would become, they would become a very stable state, and had this initiative to go and find the great and and wise monks and teachers that could inspire this Vipassana revival within Burma. So he was really using these state initiatives to want to encourage a passionate practice among the laity. And so you're saying that U Ba Khin was a bit wary of those kind of ideas.  

Friedgard Lottermoser  1:17:41 

Yeah, because Uber it was known that unnu was a spendthrift, even even as a student, when he was political minded, and these students were all poor, then his wife kept the money. That is German custom. The wife gives the finance itself. And if you knew want to do anything, even if he wants to invite his friends to a restaurant, the wife had to say, what we have only 10 shot. What are you going to do? Because he didn't really have a good relationship. How to use money wisely? But I may, I think that I don't know. I searched many years because people have been asking me, particularly Ruth Dennis. She said, Do you know what was the problem between Maha and U Ba Khin? I said, I don't know. I don't really know. And then later it was suggested to me, I think maybe by someone like ukule or What and that that Maharishi said, or when the layperson, U Ba Khin, put an obstacle to this support of the by the government, then he showed it off. What does he know? And so Mahathir may have been displeased with U Ba Khin about it, about the fact that he prevented who knew from from putting up this, this idea I don't know, because I do know that uno helped Maharishi to visit Sri Lanka and all that other countries, right. 

Host  1:19:08 

Right, right. And how about U Ba Khin relation with Ne Win? And how and after Ne Win's takeover in 1962 in what ways did that impact U Ba Khin’s life? 

Friedgard Lottermoser  1:19:20 

Well, amongst U Ba Khin disciples, there was a single person who was a was a military man, a captain. He and his whole family, they were meditating only one and who knew, was never known as a religion, was never known as a as a religious person. His home was in the military compound, not so far from our house, but it was a very huge compound, so we only knew that is ne Win's house. I don't think he came to our house, or at least I have never seen him. But. Had niwin was known as having a very hot Temper, temper when his children were noisy at India Road, then in a party. Then he went to India road and he slept, not only the children. He slept the guests, including the foreign diplomats. This kind of thing, uncontrolled temper and not religious minded. But Aung, she That is spiritual Ji. Aung, she who was close to NIV win, he was a different person. My father had a lot of respect for him, so yeah, because he had to do with the military, and he said my my stepfather said, the first misgivings he had what was going to happen to the Burmese army was when the wind put Wang Ji into prison. But Khin was not a military person at all, and he didn't have many disciples who were in the army, but that didn't affect him in the government until around about 6566 and by that time, he was already retired. In fact, when the military government take took over, they examined the project of the new government, and then they mostly used the accountant journal to check the finances. And that had the result that U Ba Khin was in charge of the Buddha Sasana press, printing press, where all the Pali books are in a group of five who were all his disciples, and was under the military government of unu in The early years, and when Goenka was successful in India. U Ba Khin has said, Oh, I will go to India. That was shortly before his death. If he didn't die, he would probably come try and get to India. 

Host  1:21:53 

Wow, imagine that. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  1:21:55 

Yeah. He was so interested that he thought he should very encouraging of Goenka, also, he used to say, right to Goenka, that you are not doing this on your own. I'm behind you. You are doing it on my behalf. Don't worry, you will be successful. 

Host  1:22:11 

Thank you for another session with sharing all this information. We could just go on and on. I know that we're coming up on your meditation time, so I want to let you go, to be able to continue your own practice. And I look forward to continuing these conversations. This has been so delightful. So thanks again for sitting with us. 

Friedgard Lottermoser  1:22:29 

I have found that I think of a lot about these years now, because we have these talks, and sometimes I know more about the actual circumstances that simply I didn't think about it, which I haven't thought of, they come up now. 

Host  1:22:50 

So we've just heard the second interview with Friedgard Lottermoser, the one hour interview, and I'm back with ujagura, and we're going to be sharing some of our thoughts and commentary about what you've just heard. Because, as mentioned, there are so many layers, and her talk is so dense that I think further examination can bring to light some of the deeper things that she was exploring. So jagra, I'd like to ask you, as you listen to this the first time, I know you've listened to it several times since, but as you listen to it the first time, what really stood out to you? 

U Jagara  1:23:24 

Well, since, since I knew her personally, then speaking with her was more, you know, meaningful, but still, you know, by hearing again her stories, you know, that were still a little bit different, you know, but so much alive. What was striking to me, you know, well, her experience with the back in and like, like, for example, when she speaks about the meditation, and at some point back in goes, and he says, Okay, now when you have a, you know, the type of free flow, and you don't have any blockage anywhere. Then there is a kind of tipping with the mine on the area too, on the heart center and and then to see the if there are any San cars left. So this is interesting, you know, for those who are advanced practitioner, and also this aspect of the heart center that was, you know, very important when they were teaching over there, it came to be put aside a little bit because it can trigger very deep emotions on the yogi. So it's not so much use as a base, but still, you know, it's very important, because the art is, is the base of the Mind in itself, and this is where we can see very deep stuff that the. That keeps us being alive with all our San cars, that keeps us again, you know, in this cycle of of life and death, and which strike me also, you know, is Wendy, when she speaks about to back in and Maya see for myself. I was ordained with my sister in 79 so I know both camps, and from my point of view, you know, although, although she, she definitely says that they were in very good term. I know also, like Goenka Ji mentioned to me that you back in and Massa said were in very good terms, and they were discussing, you know, from time to time, with each other. But what, what we can see from what she says, is that, in the background, we, back in didn't approve so much of masses method. So I am wondering about that, and I think maybe you again, did not understand completely that method, and then the fact that it didn't approve, because this is what she says. We see that also in Goenka presentation, definitely, although he doesn't, he does not mentioned names, you know, he speaks about these techniques that are that that are involving with slow walking and all of that. And definitely, you know, this is a characteristic of the Marcy said, those matter. So I think it's, I think we can get prejudices. We can get an opinion that will not be in favor of exploring this type of meditation, of course, you know, like if we are fine with the technique, if we are fine with with a way of practice, and we go on and we don't need to go complete trying to complement our practice here and there, but anyway. But in any case, we should not have produced this. And it's a path, you know, it's a path that is a little bit different than, you know, the these two paths are different. One emphasize more Samadhi, more concentration. And for sure, you know, back in and his disciple were very strong on Samadhi, whereas the mass is, method is the approach is more with the phenomenas as they are. So Samadhi, by itself, gets built up when someone is on the path of insight. So at the beginning, you know, Insight is not very strong, but the mind settle in one of these satipatthana bases, and then with careful observation and attention, then the Samadhi somehow builds up. And it's a Samadhi that is depending that is built with insight or insight into the phenomena. So it may seem that it's not as deep as the jhanas and, you know, other aspects of Samadhi, but still, it can be enough, and commentaries, they definitely support that approach. So we have to acknowledge the difference with someone who approached the practice with Samatha, very good base of Samadhi, and the approach of those who use kind of bear inside at the beginning, where the four elements, physical elements, are the foundation for opening up Your concentration. Also these two approaches are a little bit different, but definitely complimentary, and at the end, it comes the same, because at the end, what needs to be seen is the phenomena that they are, and these phenomena are just mine and matter. So as long as we have, as long as there is enough clarity of mind, balance of mine, and concentration, the Samadhi, then the results are also going to be good. So it is just, you know, like for me, it's good. It is, you know, after all these years, it's good to make peace with with the different methods and to credit, to credit them with what they are worth of. So I think this was something. And also she mentioned about, you know, the MOE sea was very popular because in Burma, because of his position in the sixth Council, he was the president, or, you know, the one was the basic kind of a bus as for textual reference. So socially, he really became a big shot over there. So, so people wanted to support him and with, you know, meditation center and all of that. And. And at some point, when we wanted to to give, you know, to support him with government fundings, and it got blocked, because back in was the accountant, but definitely, I think Joah, also, you are on the on the field guards opinion that that tuba can was really fair, and it is just that the government, at that time could not afford itself to spend so much money in religious activities. So I don't think you know, back in was so straight that he will have respected, you know, any kind of spending that will have been, you know, logical, according to the budget that they had. So I think this is it. Yeah, there are so many other details, you know, a lot of people that she spoke about, and what I remember so, you know, like in this, in this episode, she says that when you back in secretly, we have to say secretly, because back in also was very important. He was he had a followers, and he had a big job in the government. So at some point he decided, he decided to become a monk, temporary, temporary donation for about one week in the north in in the village of bin of where the Webu Sayadaw was. And she said that as a teenager, she was there, you know, in Yangon and and she found out where he had gone. And very, very fast with the with Suu friend, they went over there to the village of min and back in was upset because, because they had come, you know, to his kind of a special and intimate ceremony where he will be away from all these duties and representation of officials and even just take the ropes and be a mock Nevertheless, you know, never addressed. I'm sure it was okay. And and then she she she was there. So she stayed there when U Ba Khin was a monk, and she practiced, and she described to me Webu sadhu was instructing her, and how he was instructing them, and the method. You know, if you don't know about Webu sada is a specialist of aapana city, and that's all what he's teaching Anapanasati, and to make it even more precise, Anapanasati based on observation of the breath at the nostrils, nostril area. So for those who know the Goenka, you know, is you do that kind of thing for the first three days where you built up the Samadhi, you absorb the breath at the nostril and in that area. And after that, you switch to a more global observation of phenomenas with the throughout the body. So but still, you know, after all the time she was there, the Webu, he was not he was again. So he did not speak at all about the sweeping in the body, the body scan. He didn't speak about it. So they were confused. They did. She told me that they were confused. But again, we see here that it's a kind of misunderstanding of techniques. Because later on, I asked Goenka, you know, himself, I said, Well, it's very funny that back in, you know, we are, we are told that this method is, you know, body scan. It's, it's really, there is we personalize, is really based on going throughout the body and seeing the phenomena that they are in permanents. But by the Webu Sayadaw is just teaching Anapana. So how do you consign How do you make peace with these, with these two things, since it was Webu said, we told back into to start teaching. And Goenka said, Well, it depends on people. And then people who have Panam is when they practice Anapanasati, and they observe the bread at the nostril. But from there, from there, they can experience the whole body, but just by remaining in the area, in that area, the experience in bread or bread, but all body also is is experienced at the same time. And this is what the commentaries, this is what they say. So it's just, it is just a practice that is completely natural. The more we are. Serve, and then the more open we are. Eventually, the whole spectrum of phenomena that we know with our six senses become to be acknowledged, become to be investigated and become to be understood. Nothing is missing also. So the approaches, again, the approach, the approaches are different, but ultimately, the the understanding we have, it's about mind and matter, and what we are is just mind and matter. So this is the when she narrated me the story at the Webu it was, it was very funny, you know, because I was imagining the two girls, you know, in that far, far off village in in Burma, then following this big shot of who back in. And I think also we can understand that the kind of its own, the kind of hesitation that back in had in regard to teaching her because she was the daughter of a diplomat, the daughter of A foreign, special guest of the government. And then he had to be very careful who back in was interested in a father, but he didn't want to have the children in this in his backyard. I mean, she was not the children, but definitely, you know, it was, it was not the official guest to the country. So this is one thing also she mentioned, you know, I think she said that working had a kind of hesitation again, and she sent her back because he didn't want to teach her. And she told she told me as well that bracket didn't like it because he felt that her parents didn't agree. So the parents didn't like so much her to go and practice meditation, of course, you know, I wonder about her mother, because her mother had gone with her at the center and did the first retreat. Only did it together. So I wonder if she enjoyed it, if she understood something. But definitely the father didn't seem to have any kind of attraction for the practice on the disappointment of U Ba Khin, right? So I think from this interview, I think that's the main thing that. 

Host 1:37:46 

Right. And she makes clear In later interviews, as she goes into more detail about her life and her relations and experience, that you're right. U Ba Khin does lose interest in her and even as in our commentary of our first episode with Corey Goldberg. He goes as far as to reference how his discomfort that it almost comes to be seen that she's something of a tool that ubiquitin may see as possible to get to the stepfather, because it's the stepfather that he really feels a bond with and wants to bring into the fold, so to speak, and that once it becomes apparent that that the stepfather, in fact, doesn't have an interest in meditation, there's some some focus lost in free guard as a student and but this, again, goes on one hand. This, I think, is somewhat shocking to a student of Goenka today that U Ba Khin is actually not interested in the student continuing meditation and and and not encouraging, even discouraging, at times, even telling freed guard to stop meditating because, you know, for this or that reason. But on the side of freed guard, it really shows, again, her level of dedication. The thing about once these interviews come out in totality, I think one of the things that listeners will gain an understanding of is free guard. Is a strong headed young woman, young Western woman in Burma in the 1960s who does not take no for an answer. Everywhere she goes, everyone says no to her. You know, U Ba Khin says, No, you can't keep meditating. Webu says no, you can't spend extended time here. Maha Gandhi on said, No, we've never had a women stay at our premises. The German Embassy says, No, we're not going to give you a visa to stay on here. And the military regime in Burma says, No, you foreigners now have to leave and so, and not even getting into the fact of the gender inequality in the Sangha, or what she had to deal with as in some cases, of being the only foreigner in certain places. So everywhere she went, she was told no, and yet she just kept pushing until the door opened. And that's what was so remarkable, and it follows through in all aspects of her story. The other thing I want to pick on. That you said, from that you said early in your talk, as you were discussing the perhaps the early biases of ubiquin towards the Mahasi method, perhaps not totally understanding what the Mahasi method was as he criticized it, and Goenka then picking up that criticism and and prejudice in his in his own discourses and and even though not referring to Mahasi by name, clearly talking about what he thinks the method is in at the 10 day courses. And I think that's another reason, another thing I want to another thread I want to pull out, because it's another reason why these interviews are so important is they kind of, they reveal where we got to today, and as these interviews continue, it's really fascinating to begin to understand, as a student of Sn Goenka, passionate meditation and organization, to begin to see how Goenka formed this movement And this practice that he did, where his thinking was borrowed and inspired and instructed by U Ba Khin, and also where it diverged. And even in this episode, she, I think she gives one small example. She goes into further detail later on, but going into greater detail, of of, of where, where the Goenka movement started to do things in a different way and unique way than what the than what we saw at IMC and U Ba Khin, of course, many similarities, but where there are also divergences. And I think it's the divergences that are especially important, because this is an organization whose methodology, I often say mythology, tends to promote this thinking of a non changing singularity, that is, that is, is that what is now is what always was. And so as we get these first hand accounts of really describing the culture and the personality and the techniques and the relations, things that have really never been known before that I've ever seen or heard of about IMC, it gives this extraordinary view and understanding of what, of going back in time, and understanding this, this environment and these people, and being able to hear clearly and See where, how this current movement with Goenka, what decisions and choices they made that in some cases veered away from, sometimes, perhaps one can argue out of necessity, but certainly veered away from what you would find with IMC and ubiquitin. And indeed, this was the reason why, this was the only reason why friedgar did not want these interviews published in her lifetime, as she did not want to face consequences, so to speak, for telling her truth and remembering her time in IMC in the form of being banned from future long courses from the organization. And that was why we we agreed to pause or to to wait to publish until after she passed. I'm as I told her at the time, I was heartbroken, because I wanted everyone to see just how remarkable she was while she was still alive. But those were her wishes. And one more thing I'd like to add to that, it when we talk about trying to understand our present and where we are now with the different mindfulness meditation organizations, teachings, lineages. But more than that, ways of thinking, you know, conditioning, ways of orienting yourself towards what the practice is and how to think about it. I'm also recalling this interview I did with Mirka Nastar, who is the biographer of munindra, and she talks about the friendship between munidra and Goenka, especially in India and boghia and then later in a gadpurri. But in talking about the friendship, she also talks about the distinction of Goenka obviously being very attached and focused on his singular method with a certain kind of discomfort about other techniques and other teachers, whereas Moon Indra is very open and very and wanting to explore, wanting to pick up other practices and learn as much as he can. And Mirka identifies this dichotomy through the friendship as something really beautiful, something how they both had their own way of practice and their own way of seeing it, but they still came together as these Dhamma friends, which I definitely support, and I think is also quite wonderful at the same time, I think that this study of their of these two very influential teachers and everything that came after them, and understanding who they were at their place of time, as I said in my interview with Mirka, this is almost kind of showing Where the meditation movement started to flow into the US. Because of course, Goenka and his students to this day have become more fundamental and more focused on the pristine purity and the singularity of their technique, more discomfort with kind of and more closed off from outside discussions and conversations with the. Wider Theravada Buddhist Vipassana meditation community, whatever you want to call it, whereas the the influences of munindra have, have, I would say, have embodied more of that, greater openness and exploration and and and discovery of an interest in other kinds of practices and seeing the value of understanding different traditions. I don't say that to highlight one being better or worse. There are certainly advantages and disadvantages both ways of having a technique and really staying with it and delving deep into it, and especially if that works for you. And there's also advantages in having that open mind. I think they're both tools to use in different ways. It's more of an objective commentary on on seeing how this the dichotomy of the friendship of these two individuals, how it then led, in some ways, to where we are now. And I think that's also what we see in what you were referring to as U Ba Khin relationship with Mahasi, but also his relationship with mahasis teachings, how that, how his understanding, or as you suggest, perhaps misunderstanding, how that influenced the later mission of Goenka. So, yeah, there's a lot there.  

U Jagara  1:46:12 

Yes, there is a lot there. And we can be reminded that a tradition, a tradition, is something that is alive, and to keep alive somehow, although it carries its past on its shoulder, it should be new or so it has to be creative on this is what we find. You know, the possibility to adapt to new cultures, to new epoch, you know, to new time in history. This is where a tradition is able to keep its originality and its aliveness. So it's it's interesting. When we look, you know, the on history, on all kinds of, you know, whatever we are looking at, we see the different directions and the different kind of interest that some schools developed, and all the the contradicted or the oppose one another. But eventually we see that it's, it's a dynamic. All these things, you know, are, are this is, you know, the disagreement can be very positive, can be very creative, also, because it forced people to to be very clear of what they are standing for and in that's it so. So I think, I think we have to keep open and still, you know, be dedicated and knowing what we do and then to do it. Well, I think we should never stop inquiring about what we are, what we are doing and why we are doing that. Somehow, somehow. I think this. I think these episodes just gives us also a context, the context in which these schools express themselves, in this in the last century, in this century also. So it's important for us to see that, well, context are different. You know, the societies of Burma or India in the in the mid nine, mid 90s, they are they were quite different than what is now. So, you know, from our judgment, we can say that these people were very narrow minded, and, you know, they had a very limited vision. But if we look at them in their own culture, they were really opened also, that's why, you know, it's it's kind of relative, and we should never put a story outside the context in which it was created. 

Host  1:48:54 

So I think that's very true. And I also want to prompt you here because another insight of this discussion that you shared with me after listening was regarding the bar of soap that mother Sayama mentions, and the interpretation of that. So I'd like to prompt you to share that here. 

U Jagara  1:49:11 

Yes, because you know you said, she says yes, when Mother saya she was with her husband, and the husband, you know, which he then had come back from his meditation, and he was very devoted. And and then they were, you know, laying down in their bed having a rest, you know, in the evening. And and then she asked him how he practices, you know, in the meditation. And he gives him just very brief instructions. And and then she puts her mind on the, you know, on the, on the place, you know, the area of the mouth where she was observing her breath. And then, in a sudden, a big light came. And actually, she said she saw, she saw a piece, a bar of soap. Oh, but, but it's funny, because, I mean, if you, if you have been living there, you know, in Asia, you see that there is a kind of a soap brand that is called sunlight. So over there in Burma, you had the, you had the live life boy, which was very common, oh, but the sunlight was a bit more rare, and it was very bright. So the name itself, the name itself, is a synonym of light. So what she was saying, and what she saw was, of course, maybe, you know, a bar of soul, but it was more the luminosity of the object that would have been translated as a bar of soap. So if anyone sees a bar of soap in your meditation, well, Europe is going to be a very sunny one. 

Host  1:50:52 

That's very interesting. There is one other thing I realize I want to ask you. One of the things I was struck by listening to it this recent time that I didn't catch in the previous other listings was the dichotomy and the contrast that she sets up, I think maybe even inadvertently or unintentionally. On one hand, as we've mentioned before, she references her difficulty in continuing to practice at IMC and under U Ba Khin and U Ba Khin actually flat out discouragement at one point to that, to not to keep up the practice and and then, on the other hand, she references how when the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi came to Yangon, he stayed at goenkas house, but also that goenkas family, I Don't she isn't quite clear whether Goenka himself did this, but certainly his family then took meditation courses with him and U Ba Khin. And she stresses here really that how shocked she was that U Ba Khin gave permission for these family members of Goenka to take those courses and then to come back and join the IMC courses, because usually he was quite, quite strict with with with students not mixing practices, famously, and that's something that's carried on with the Goenka organization. So this was quite a remarkable relaxation of the rules that were given. And I believe that freed guard suggests that one of the reasons for this is this understanding that Goenka might be an important figure in the in the organization and the movement, and that being able to accommodate or acquiesce to his family might make that relationship easier going forward. And so in some ways, when you look at the contrast between these decisions being a bit harder and more, pushing away a bit of free to guard when when her stepfather is not interested, and that's not really serving his purposes or IMC. But then, on the other hand, doing the opposite. With goenkas family accommodating, going beyond the rules to accommodate. These are two very different strategies for different people that are also having a different impact on on the center and the mission going forward. So I wonder what your thoughts are on thinking back to begins decision in these two cases. 

U Jagara  1:53:11 

Yes and I know, like you, you speak about this regard. So at some point, and also when she discussed about her practice, it seemed that she had it very easy, and, you know, it just flew. And you know, she had a very deep experience in a very short while. But when she talked to me, she said that she hard time with meditation, and she was not a good yogi, right? And the reason is that because she is very intelligent in the very analytical, analytical Suu, she always wanted to understand. I mean, this is why, also, you know, people who are so stubborn come to do a PhD, somehow, you know, the more you are thinking and analyzing and wanting to understand, is it makes it the what you're observing a little bit more complicated. So somehow this brought more difficulties on our path. So it doesn't matter, it's just we. It is. It's our path, and this is how we we progress, the way that whichever amount of understanding we want to have. And in regard to Maharishi, Maharaj yogi, you know, I was told so by by Goenka. You know, is that at the beginning, his wife, Mrs. Goenka, she could not meditate. She it was very difficult for her to meditate. So Goenka said, Well, you know, you just go with Mahesh Yogi, and he's going to give you some mantras, and you go on with that. So this is also not only we back in who didn't have anything to say against that, but the Goenka himself encouraged his wife to practice mantras at the. Beginning, and I think if people know what they are doing, then at some point they can investigate possibilities of enlarging a little bit their practice. But the main reason why we begin permitted it is that at least people will have had the taste of what is meditation. So whatever type of meditation you start with that, and then you see what it brings to your life, the change that it gives to your mind. So from there, then you can go on with your search and with your inquiry, and then also to with your practice. And maybe, you know, try something that could be better. So, you know, I think, I think supporting that kind of initial practice with mantras, knowing that many of them are going to, you know, to listen to what Goenka has to say, and also try what, what he proposes that as as method, because he had done, I'm sure he did, also mantra somehow before. So he was more in favor of, you know, what he's teaching, what he what he had been teaching, we do back in so I think, I think there are many methods, many approaches, and we have to find what is the best for us. 

Host  1:56:27 

And I think this, this contrast, also, in some ways, shows ubiquitin strategic thinking in terms of where to be a bit harder in the rules and where to relax them a little. That's what I found so fascinating when putting when juxtaposing me side by side these two cases. 

U Jagara  1:56:44 

Oh, well, yes. But also, you know, is that the back in was was dealing with a very limited amount of people, so it was easy for him to adjust his teaching and also his discipline in regard to people coming to him. Sometimes you had, you know, students who were there just for a few days, and some were for more a longer period of time. So I think when it came to be formalized, because although it is said that even said that, you know, was giving seven days retreats, I think they were very flexible in the sense that they were having a place, they were having a center, then people could come from just a minimum of time, and then the teacher will be able to adjust this teaching according to the time available to these students. So in this way, you know, back in Cola, for much more liberty, much more freedom, as to as for the discipline, but going Kyi with, with the organization that that he came to, to put together, required a much more strict discipline, and then it required also a kind of uniformity with the instructions and the discourses. And, you know, it, he made, we could say, you know, he marketed. He made, he made it a market, product of the market somehow. So he was a very good businessman in this way, because it really, it really sold out, became very popular, but it was because of that, the presentation that was really well organized and systematic. And you have the rules, and this is what you do. You trust it, and you follow the discipline, the discipline that is that is required in the retreats and the practice itself. 

Host  1:58:56 

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