Transcript: Episode #294: Ripples of Dhamma
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Host 0:21
Many longtime listeners know that our podcast platform was initially focused on interviews about the many spiritual paths that Myanmar offers, meditators and monastics, but when the coup hit, we couldn't, in good conscience, continue to tell those stories with many monastic sites on fire or occupied by soldiers and the Burmese people living under the military's Reign of Terror. So we expanded our mission to cover a wider range of post kumianar stories. Still, some guests have a unique insight into both the intersection of the spiritual with the worldly, allowing a deeper understanding of both planes. Today's guest squarely fits in that category, as we will soon hear. Let's get to that interview now.
Grahame White 2:19
Well, I was thinking previous conversations we've been having on Burma and then how Burma came to the west, if you like, how the Mahasi tradition, the Goenka tradition, many other traditions, came to the west out of that time of the people. You know, I really feel as though this is going right back in the beginning. But I really feel that it was the early 70s that was really the beginning of Burmese meditation practices coming to the west, you know, through that group of people that was living, that were living in budh Gaya at that early, even that early time that was really in the early 70s, you know, with Joseph and Sharon and Barry lapping and a lot of other people there. And I was just reflecting, as you were talking to me just then, about how important that period of time was. I often think about it as something like being in Montmartre in Paris, you know, where all the artists used to gather. This was like, you know, the sort of spiritual hippie trip, you know, that ended up in bud Gaia, and then from bud Gaia spread like a spokes of a wheel around the world. Came from that period of time. So that's why I think it's so important, and it's it's good that, you know, we're able to talk about that and let people know how they actually in the present day, 2022 are still able to practice Vipassana and how widely it's spread through the Different teachers with especially with goenkaji and Mahasi Sayadaw, moving on to Joseph and then show and Jack Kornfield, etc, etc, you know. So that time, to me, is really important time, you know, like historical for the transition of Vipassana, coming out from India, Burma and to the Western countries, and I was thinking how important it was, because people were still not going to Burma to practice. In the late 70s, early 80s, some people were going, but not very many people were going. I think that the really was just trying to reflect on it, you know, my own time there. And how many people were there? There weren't many people coming to Burma to meditate. You know, there are a few, few of us that were able to come and meditate there, but not a lot. And so I don't think I went back to Burma from you. From being there in the early days in Burma for quite a number of years, like mainly, I think I started going back to Burma again in 19, I think in 1987 so it was nearly like a seven year gap, you know, before going back to Burma. And then from that period of time and in the 90s, a lot of people started to go to Burma to practice, at the Mahasi Center and at the Bucha center. And I do remember going back and trying to think of dates here. You know, it's around 7076 or something like that, where I actually did, no, no, was early in that, where I did go to U ba Khin center. And then I was still, you know, going between the Mahasi, Oh, no. It must have been about 73 or 74 I think it must have been because I was still vacillating between Mahasi and Goenka tradition, and then I so I went to the BA Khin center to practice and do a 10 day retreat there. But I think it was after that retreat that I started to dive more deeply into the Mahasi practice, personally, not that there was anything wrong with the BA Khin center. It was wonderful. And he himself was wonderful. Well, he had died at that point. But we went there to practice as he died in 1972 I think. But anyway, so then I left the Asian scene, if you like, and we came back here. I came back here. And my girlfriend at the time, my partner at the time, we started to run these evening group sittings in Sydney and Chinatown. And a number of people started coming. And then we thought, well, we need to get something going here, like a retreat center, or we need to run retreats, because that's where our heart was, you know, we wanted to offer what we'd learnt to other people, so which I felt was important, and so We started organizing retreats for various teachers. And I may have mentioned last week that the first of the teachers that we invited was Joseph Goldstein, and he came with Alan Clements and did a they were both. Alan was a monk at the time. He hadn't he hadn't yet disrobed. Also, Steve Smith came. He was a monk at the time as well, and the three of them came, but Joseph was the primary teacher, and we did a 10 day retreat at what Bucha Dharma outside of Sydney, and another retreat up in the Byron Bay Area, another in this a place called birdie forest monastery. It was a lay monastery, a lay place, but they used to have retreats there. So that was the beginning. And Joseph came a few times and then, but he we also thought, well, we need to have our Burmese teachers. Wouldn't that be nice, you know? So I wrote to them, and not expecting a reply, actually, even though I knew the people there quite well, especially the President, and I got an answer from them, and I was so surprised. And they said, Yeah, we're happy to send a teacher. And they did. They sent a teacher, and that was what a rigmarole it was in those days, because Australia had very strict visa regulations. At that point, we had to be sponsored by an organization which I was able to ask the president of the Buddhist Association here in Australia to write a letter saying we were legitimate, if you like. We had to go through all kinds of visa regulations, such as. They were very worried about tuberculosis, because, of course, Burma has a lot of tuberculosis, so the monks had to get health checks before they came. Oh, it was a real rigmarole. We had to put up bonds, so many things, just to get them here. And so we did. And I feel as though the first retreat, if I can remember, was about 85 and the monk came over. And what the most wonderful part for me was the interest of from the Burmese community, because at that time, there wasn't a big Burmese community, as there is at the moment in time, there was only a small group of people, but I knew a couple of them, and they said, Oh, you're bringing the side doors over. I said, Yes, I said, we'll help. And so have a lot of gratitude for the Burmese community at that time, because they helped greatly. You know, by when we started the retreats, they helped by providing food for the monks bringing Dana down. And the first retreat we did was down in the southern highlands at BA or which you may remember, residential missionary place. Christian missionary place, absolutely beautiful, like a beautiful Victorian building. And it was a place where the Christian missionaries, they would come back from their posts around the world, India, Africa, wherever they happened to be and they would live here. And they decided to turn this place into a place they could rent out to make money to maintain the center. And the nun who was in charge there was very much into contemplation and into meditation. And she said, Oh, that would be wonderful if you're bringing Burmese, if you're bringing monks here. And I thought, Oh, that's a surprise. And so she was very accommodating and very welcoming. And when the monks came, we started doing, I think I seem to remember we were just doing short retreats to start with, like a 10 day retreat, something like that. And then we moved to doing month retreats. And then we moved to doing two month retreats over the next few years. So the longest retreat we did down at this place, down outside of BA or with a two month retreat, a lot of people came.
A lot of the American teachers came over to sit because we had saya reppandida as the teacher for that retreat. But what was surprising to me was the amount of generosity given by the groups around here. You know, people would come and cook, they would offer Dana. There must have been 40 people on the retreat doing this two month retreat. So it was absolutely wonderful. And over the preceding years, we just kept inviting the monks until a time came where we decided that, oh, now it's time for a permanent retreat center. And this was in the late 80s, early 90s, and one of one of my friends at the time, he had purchased a house near the Goenka center in black Heath Medlow bath, which you, I'm sure you remember Joah, yeah, yeah, yeah, very close to Blackheath, yeah, yeah, spend some time there, yeah. You spent some time there, yeah. Well, just down the road was a very small, 20 people Meditation Center, and it was a house, really, but we all got together a whole all US volunteers, and we built a meditation hall down the back, and we convert, we renovated the house and got it ready to be able To do retreats. And we started doing retreats there with the Burmese monks, but also with lay teachers. So we had a full program. And I said, How are we going to do this? You know, because I was the president of that association at the time, Buddha Sasana Association, and we worked really hard as to travel up from my house, was a two and a half hour drive, and we'd go up every weekend, painting, doing all kinds of things. And so I looked at the IMS timetable, you know, Schedule page, and I said, how are they doing it, and how and I saw, I looked at them, and I had a look at their schedule, and I said, Oh, I see how they're doing it now. And so we put a program in place after being there for about a year, which was similar to IMS with 10 day a mix of 10 day retreats, 10 day retreats, one month retreats, weekend retreats. And that went for a few years, and it's still going on now. Then we decided we needed a permanent resident teacher. So we asked Sayadaw upandida If he had someone in mind that could come and be a permanent resident there. Because my my feeling at the time was that the Dharma here was still immature and that we needed someone of competence, you know, to be able to give the traditional teachings. And so this monk came and it. Worked out quite well for some time, but then it started to fall apart, because this particular monk, as nice as he was, really missed being with the Burmese community, even though a lot of the retreats were the Burmese people would come and give Dana and help on the retreats, but he didn't want to stay there any longer, and so we had to decide, ah, well, he doesn't want to stay here. He wants to be in Sydney with the Burmese people. So that's not going to work. So from that time on, I thought, how are we going to do this? So I said, Well, there's a four or five people, or four people that I thought were capable of running retreats, lay people. And so what we started to do was myself and three other people, we started running weekend retreats, and then a lot more lay people started to come to the retreats. But we still didn't give up on the longer retreats, and we'd still ask various teachers to come and teach there. And it's been going now for all these years, similar. So I guess it's been quite successful, if you say, not in the scale of say, the Goenka tradition, but still in its own right. I think, been very successful. And except for COVID, it's been quite successful. And the retreats are usually quite full when they're on. They haven't been on for a few years now. So it was wonderful. And the most important thing for me was being able to, you know, like, generate an interest in Vipassana, but have that connection with the Burmese people. And we had such a close, close rapport with them. Every month they would come and do a Dana day at the center. It's a beautiful, you know what the Blue Mountains is like? It's absolutely beautiful. So there's, there was a big backyard there, and they'd set up tents, you know, in like stalls, and they'd have about 10 stalls, and each of them would have their own type of food they were cooking and so and so. Many people used to come for these days. We used to raise so much money for the center of these Dana days. They were that we did that for a long time, and then finally it culminated. And few years later, I can't remember the time. Oh, it's just amazing. Joah, you know there was one time Sayadaw U kundala came as well, and he did. He was my teacher. I don't know if you know of Sayadaw U kundala. No, I don't. You don't. Oh, he's a Buddha. Absolutely amazing, very soft, gentle monk. And I met him in Burma. He was one of the Mahasi Naya side doors, one of the group of Niagara side doors. And he came. He we invited him to come and teach a retreat. And so he came, he taught a retreat at the Blue Mountain Center. And then we decided, Oh, well, you know, it's just the way my mind works. Oh, we need a we need a stupa. We need a pagoda, don't we? You know, every center must have a pagoda. So I talked with Sayadaw and Sayadaw ulaca, who, you know, yeah, but at the chaswa Center, yeah, said, Sayadaw, how are we going to do this? And then there are a few Burmese people said, well, we'll, we'll build it. Okay, we'll build it. And so I was going back to Burma that year, and Sayadaw, he was amazing. He organized all this reliquies, like really powerful, you know, reliqua statues, texts, so many things to go inside this pagoda. It was amazing. I couldn't believe how many things I bought back, how many objects I bought back that people wanted to Dana to go inside this yet unbuilt pagoda. You know, it was just, it was just amazing, you know, the generosity and it just showed me so much the sada that the Burmese and other Asian countries, but especially the Burmese, have in Buddha Dharma. You know, it was just incredible. Going, Wow, this is amazing, you know. Anyway, so I bought all these things back inside kundala Khan, and he did a groundbreaking ceremony. And so many people came for it. We had, I don't know, 10 monks, and you know, few 100 people came for the groundbreaking, and then we started to build. And one of our Burmese friends, who was actually a Goenka practitioner, his mother used to be one of this the first assistant teachers for the Goenka tradition. So I said, Oh, this is pretty amazing that they're offering to help. Said, I'll build it. So for week after week, we're all up there building this pagoda. None of us with any expertise in pagoda building, right and but it turned out that the council, the Blue Mountain city council, when we applied for a permit to do this, the only way that we could get a permit was to put it in as A garden ornament and the height we were only allowed was 15 foot, which is not very high for a pagoda. It's like a very small pagoda. I said, Okay, we'll have to do this. So we worked every weekend for a number of weeks until we had finished the pagoda.
And then, because none of us were experts in building pagodas, you know, the lead person there, the Burmese boy, he said, Well, I don't know how to do this, but we'll try our best. So we built this pagoda, and it was leaning when we finished it. It was on its anger, on an angle a little bit, you know. So it was leaning. Was like the leaning pagoda of the Blue Mountains, like the leaning down. But it looked sensational, you know. And we put paving all around it. We had eight Buddhas from all over Burma, and it looks fantastic. And we had an opening ceremony. And this was really the end of my road with the Blue Mountains at that time. But that we had, I was just the most wonderful ceremony. I can visualize it in my mind. They had chariots coming up from the meditation hall up to the, you know, to bring the tea, you know, the golden tea, to put on the top. They had all the Burmese kids dressed up in Burmese costume, doing the ceremonial dancing and all this sort of thing. There were 15 monks there doing, doing the chanting. And there were nearly 800 people came in this very small place for the opening of the pagoda. And so it was just an absolutely wonderful experience. And, you know, sometimes, and so we put all the world at the statues and the other objects in the meditation center. They closed it up, the monks chanted, and it was like, Oh, I've done my duty, you know? Like, personally, that's what happened. I can go now, you know, that's what I had to do, was build that pagoda, or get that pagoda built. And since then, I've hardly been back to the Blue Mountain Center at all, isn't it's funny how these things happen, how they work out. Yeah, it was like you had done that was what you were going to do.
Host 23:31
Yeah, that's a great story, and it's nice hearing the full circle of having learned the practice primarily in India and then in Burma and bringing it back to your home. And I guess one of the questions I have is being myself, being an American, and being in my country, the United States, seeing the growth of Dhamma here, of of course, the Goenka tradition, which I first got involved in, was my introduction to it, and then seeing the other kinds of practices, and there's a lot of discourse and and documentation on the rise of American Buddhism and the role of dharma and Buddhist teachings in American society. And so I guess that's always been somewhat of an American centric way to look at it, which is probably true of of much scholarship and and such in general, just the position that America occupies. But what I'm curious about is being being a Westerner as an as Americans are, and yet not being from America and watching the growth of the teachings and meditation in Australia. How would you compare and contrast the development between Australia and America? Do you feel that it that Australia was kind of following what America was doing, or was it happening simultaneously, on different scales? Or how would you how would you assess the interest? I've actually heard that there that Australia today is a really prime place for not just meditation centers, but more importantly, actually building more. Monasteries with native Sanghas that can support it, and that I've heard from some people, it's actually bit easier to do that in Australia than the US. But looking at the this progression of bringing these teachings to Australia, how would you compare and contrast that process to what you saw and experienced and heard about in America?
Grahame White 25:19
Well, I think what, what you were saying earlier, is pretty much the path Australia took, that it flourished in the traditional manner for some time, but in a much smaller way, you know, like incredibly, much, much smaller way the Goenka tradition, of course, flourished the most because they had the dedication. They had the Dharma serve this ethic. And everyone knew about the Goenka tradition. They used to advertise quite a lot. They would go on radio and do talk back shows, and so when anyone thought about Vipassana, they thought about the coding, the Goenka tradition.
Host 26:06
That was right. It was, it was synonymous. It was really that organization, really around the world. And I would, I would add, not just, you know, you mentioned that it had this stellar sense of Dhamma service, that an outreach, and that those were, those features of the organization were perhaps more advanced than other traditions, which I would agree, but I would add a third element on that, I think is just as if not more important, and that's, I don't know what you'd call it, but something like administration or structure, but just when You management right? Management? So when, if you just completely remove the concept of of the teachings and the teacher and the practice and everything else, if you just as a thought experiment, if you just move that part away, and you just look at the management structure of how the Goenka organization was set up, versus some of the other traditions, it's, it's really it's just incredible. And I didn't know this until I start, you know, when I first started just being a Goenka meditator, that was all I knew. And so the the management parallel with the teachings, it was hard to separate them, because they all just came as one package. And when I started to see other types of other the ways that other teachings were disseminated. I truly had to stand back and just Aung, respective, oh, absolutely how a volunteer organization was able to come up with that the strength of the management style that it is. And of course, every strength has its own drawbacks. Another conversation could talk about the drawbacks of that management style, but leaving that aside, just simply stating that the management that it was able to bring everywhere it went was really one of the keys of success, of how it was able to then flourish.
Grahame White 27:53
Oh, absolutely. And the same, the same thing happened here. You know, the management style in Australia was just to the forefront of things. They were really good at. What they were doing, the management looking after the Goenka thing, following goenkas path, of course, because, you know, we have to remember that Goenka was a very wealthy businessman, and he knew about business plans, and he knew about, of course, and he knew about how to raise the profile of the center. But there's one thing I think is most important. And I experienced this personally for myself, was in the beginning of the time of Vipassana coming to Australia, and I think also in America, there was nothing else, right? So it was an Asian tradition, and the teachers were Asian monks. They would come here, they would teach, and they would teach eclectically, you know, for both Burmese and Westerners. And our group at that time was a mixture and a very harmonious mixture of Burmese Australians, whoever was here, right, there was no difference at all. But after the pagoda went up in the Blue Mountains, the Burmese and more Burmese people were coming to Australia and probably to America as well, and they wanted to pull away from the western side of things and so and start their own centers, and start their own communities and this present. And so it happened rather quickly, which was a little bit surprising to me, and a little bit what was the word I want to use. I was a little bit confused by it to start with. Suddenly, the Burmese community weren't that interested in what we were doing. And. And especially when the monk left, and suddenly, a few years later, it started to oh, I had to think to myself, Oh, okay, this is what's happening. You know, they want to start their own centers. They want to have the monks coming, and which they did very successfully, but only for Burmese. Only for Burmese. They started bringing monks over, especially some of the Mahasi monks. And they started a meditation they started a meditation center in Sydney itself, in southwest Sydney. And then they started bringing these wonderful teachers over from the mogad tradition and from the Mahasi tradition and other traditions. And they started running retreats for Burmese in Burmese, and so Westerners couldn't go, and so we lost contact with the Burmese community and with the traditional style of practice because of that. And so I think whereas in Goenka tradition, Goenka always, when he was he was always very secular, wasn't he? You know, this is not a secular in the sense that he wasn't connected to it was a universal technique. And he used to keep saying that over and over again, this is a universal technique. It doesn't matter what tradition you follow, what country you come from, it's a universal technique. And I think that was the success of the that way of spreading the Dharma was the success of the Goenka tradition, and that's why everyone knew about Vipassana, but only in the Goenka tradition and the Mahasi style and other styles started. To slip. You know, people would not be coming so much when we started bringing Western teachers over again, that started to generate and it was interesting, because at the Blue Mountain Center, I must say, you know, I'm a very traditional person, and I love being with traditional practice and practitioners. It's my upbringing, my conditioning, I guess. But after the pagoda went up at the Blue Mountain Center, the committee, the board, we wanted to Sayadaw lakana wanted to build a SEMA down the back of the property, but the board didn't want to do that. You know, they were maybe seeing more clearly than I was that that traditional sense and being associated with the Asian community was not where things were going. And so they knocked that back. And I think that was the last time many Burmese monks actually came to the center after that, and it's turned into more of a Western Center, still, still maintaining the Mahasi practice, of course, but taught by Westerners, and not so much by Burmese. Occasionally, a Burmese monk would come, but not very often. And so for me, I could see the changing of how it was presented.
Host 33:33
To move in a slightly different direction, but still connected and related to this. We've over the course of these couple hours, we've we've mapped your journey, and your journey has been a microcosm or a representative of the overall journey of the Westerner learning the Dhamma and then in a local venue and then taking it back to their own Western tradition. Um, so we've we've seen this is, this is part of a larger story of finding the Dhamma and taking it and establishing it elsewhere. And as we've also discussed, it's there. There's something accidental, seemingly accidental. I mean, maybe it's fate or karma or parmese or these other things, but there's these confluence of conditions that have come together in somewhat unusual and unpredictable ways that we have this, this strong anti war, alternative, hippie, New Age, open minded movement of the West, happening which are driving people to look for new ways of Being that in the post world war two era, that that perhaps society wasn't open to before, at the same time, that that these teachings are starting to flourish in Thailand and Burma and India. Not so much Native Indian teachers, but people are going to India, and while in India, and of course, Goenka is the nexus of this. I mean, Goenka is. A Indian who was bringing the teachers teachings from Burma. But you, you have this kind of accidental, or perhaps not accidental, depending on the forces that one believes in. But this, this certainly this unpredictable and unanticipated mix of these youthful hippies looking for another way to live, looking for anything, really, and then coming into contact with this flourishing of teachings that some experimented with as they were experimenting with drugs or sex or music or whatever else others and even Goenka mentions that in his discourse, he talks about the trip, he says, I'm going to have this trip and that trip, and that trip, and then the Goenka trip, because that's how people would talk to them, but, but some stay with it and and some really become serious practitioners and even teachers, and say, missionaries or ambassadors in their own right, of bringing it and establishing it in another place. And but it's really when you look at it historically, some of these great names, these big names, of these western teachers, many of them were, were really just kind of at the right place, at the right time, going from this to that, and suddenly finding it and just kind of landing in by virtue of becoming one of the first Westerners from that society to take up the practice, and by virtue of continuing that practice, to some extent, they were just really in the right time and right place for being able to to then bring it. So there's this, when we look at this progression, there's there's this really curious mix of those that just happen to be over there for whatever reasons and conditions were propelling them, and then being able to bring these teachings back and set everything up that's now established in the story of the progression of the Dhamma. And I always love hearing I was referred to this comment that Sam Harris made. Sam Harris is a famous podcaster and writer, neuroscientist, etc, he he referenced how his youthful commitment to dama and to the Buddhist teachings at that time was so absolute and so such a fervent disciple that when he looks at young Westerners who are being who are being indoctrinated into the Taliban and becoming extremist Muslims and Western society. He says, That's just like me. He said, If someone had given me the Muslim path to liberation, I would have joined that with the same fervor that I became a youthful Dhamma practitioner. And I can certainly attest to that as well. Where this is all going. The question this is all going to is looking at this progression, this progression that in some ways happened, accidental or unpredicted, and these, these combination and confluence of forces that one wouldn't have predicted, but they did come together. And now we have what we have that we we we don't just have flourishing meditation teachers and courses and everything that are set up in the West. But we now have technology that's been brought into it. So we have, you know, whereas, right, you know, years ago, not so long ago, to look for a proper book on Theravada Buddhism or meditation, or whatever you you had to really search for it, and in some ways, it almost seemed like fate had landed you what you needed for that time. Everyone, I think, from anyone from 20 years previous that found meditation has their origin story of all the unpredictable forces that brought them to that meditation. You mentioned Alan Clements, he was a guest on my podcast, and the way that he found meditation is, if my memory serves me right, he was staying in a Miami hostel, and in the hostel happened to come across a book on the teachings of Mahasi Sayadaw, and that's what led him to Mahasi was, was that experience. I know people who happen the same way they happened to find a book of William Hart's art of living, which was a Goenka book. They became senior teachers in the Goenka system. So I think before, 20 years ago, everyone had this kind of, these kind of origin stories, of these, these incredible invisible forces that brought them there. I don't know if there's really those origin stories now, because from the This podcast is just one drip in the ocean of how much content there is now with where we're moving. There's the whole online sector too. Of as you mentioned, zoom and podcasts and Instagram and Facebook and blogs and everything else. It just goes on and on and things that continue to continue to develop. I haven't even mentioned the mindfulness movement. Of mindfulness is being brought not just into hospitals and schools, but into the military and corporations and, you know, and and government and everywhere else. And that's another discussion altogether. If that is a beneficial development or not. Again, where this question. Is all going the context I'm trying to set up is where, where are we now, with this progression of the Dhamma, from someone who has lived through this, who took the second course of Goenka, who was one of the first western practitioners in the Mahasi, who was in Bodh Gaya before it was was so called discovered. And I think that it's very easy for as we age, to to have to be an elder who is, you know, get off my lawn. This is not how we used to do it in the old days. And kids these days, you know, those kind of, those kind of memes. It's a very easy reaction to have that, oh, you're getting this all wrong. And but of course, if we go, it's not like you guys or my generation, or anyone got it all right? I mean, you guys were a bunch of hippies who just happened to land in the right place, and probably made a ton of mistakes at the time, and even mistakes and how it was brought over and established. And so, you know, there's certainly grounds for being able to stand today and to criticize mcmindfulness and criticize the online masses of people that are discussing mindfulness or meditation in whatever forms they're doing for whatever reasons, with whatever wisdom, things aren't perfect now. They weren't perfect then. And I'm sure if you go through you know Burmese or Thai history, you'll find a lot of missteps in their native lands as well. So it's not like, you know, us Westerners are the ones getting it wrong, but where so with with all of this context that I've just given mapped out and acknowledged. This is no easy thing to reflect on where we've come from and to reflect on where we're at now. But what are your what is your general sense of as someone who's seen this progression across continents, across culture, across time and then seeing the new ways that are starting to come out now for better, for worse. What are your thoughts on where we're at, where we've come from, where we're going, and perhaps even what you might like to see, anywhere you want to go with that?
Grahame White 41:54
Yeah, that's look. It's an excellent question, really. You know, as far as personally, how, how I see things at the moment is, I don't have any real problem with how it's presented at the moment. It from that experience I was talking about earlier with, you know, the loss of the Burmese community. And then one has to adapt to the current situation that you find yourself in. And one of the things I think that mindfulness or Vipassana meditation does give you is the ability to adapt to what's happening. So when I read things and see things and hear things about how the current that the current way things are done, it doesn't really phase me at all, you know, because I feel, look, as long as the message of mindfulness is getting out there in whatever sense, you know, I think that's a good thing. It can't be bad, you know. It's like Goenka used to say in his in the book that was written about him, he's, I forget the name of the author. I've got it in my next to my bed. Used to say I'm just here to drop the seeds. And so he's been able to that. And then it's up to the next generation to see if those seeds can sprout and become beautiful. Right now. So I think it's what's happening at the current time, is a lot of seeds are still being dropped, and that's fine. Most people know about mindfulness. They may not know the word Vipassana, but they know the word mindfulness due to how it's presented now with Jon Kabat Zinn and in those areas and other mindfulness teachers and mindfulness organizations, so I have no problem with it at all. There's the thing now with the secular Buddhism against the traditional Buddhism, with John Batchelor, there's a lot of things going on at the moment with the Dharma. And I don't really my own personal feeling is what, what I try to do personally, is I try to in my own teaching, I try to present the Mahasi technique as best as I can, according to the Burmese side of teachings. But that doesn't mean that I feel fundamental about it, you know. I'm certainly can move between different areas, you know, and different teachings. And I can learn a lot from this. I love the Dalai Lama, for example, you know, and I love his teachings, and I've been to a number of his workshops, which have been absolutely fantastic. All he does is speak about mindfulness, really. And so I've learned to be tolerant of all the different traditions, and I think if people can maintain that, then things are going to be okay. My only reservation is that people are not going deeply enough in the practice. And this was one of the things that Goenka talked about a lot, and in. Why he was quite strict in his presentation of the teachings that if you were part of the Goenka tradition, you needed to practice only the in the Goenka tradition, I can see the benefit of that, because if you keep, you know, if you keep persevering with the one practice eventually, whether it's this life or next life, you know you'll awaken at some point along the way or many lifetimes down the road. So I don't know if people with the current situation are actually going more deeply into the practice and experiencing the insights that are really free the mind from suffering. So that's the only thing that I have reservations about. I remember ana gorika meningra, one of the things he used to say when people asked him, Oh, you're friends with Goenka now, you know, and you're going to stay with him. And he said, Oh yeah, no problem. I have no problem with anything, he said. He said, once, once, this is a really, gave me a real hit, if you like, you know. I said, Ah, yeah. He said, once you finish the practice, you can do whatever you like. He said, When he stayed at the Mahasi center, doing his practice, and he finished the practice as you say, you know, as they say in Burma, you know, in other words, you've attained so to partner or something like that. Said you can do whatever you want. And Mahasi said, Oh, go and experience other traditions. And he said he spent the next couple of years going and doing Mogok and going doing different Vipassana practices, because he said, I'm not swayed anymore, you know, I can just do whatever I like, you know. And I like that very much indeed, and it gave me a lot of confidence and positivity. But so my only concern, as I mentioned earlier, is that people are not going deeply enough in the practice, probably. But I can't say that for sure, but I know when, for my own experience, when I'm teaching retreats, that in the current situation, it's very hard to guide people higher, they can reach a certain point, but not enough. And I think it's because of the you know, as you know, in the Buddhist clear comprehension, you need suitable conditions and suitable environments and suitable food and suitable this and that. And what I liked about the Asian context was the conditions were suitable. Goenka always talked about the vibration and the meditation centers because they were set up, you know, many years ago, had the vibration there, and they had another really important factor. And this is the one of my concerns as well. They had Sada, they had faith. And so the whole, the whole being, was to do with sada and faith. And so when in the meditation centers in Burma. Burma, there was a vibration there that was really helpful for people's progress in meditation. And so that's what I'm the only thing that I think I would be concerned about the way it's been disseminated nowadays is perhaps it's watered down a little bit, and people are not not getting the message that they need to go deeper to come out of suffering. Joseph is an advocate of encouraging people to I've noticed in His teaching and His writings that he really advocates treading the path to the end, not just to feel good, right? It's not, not as a therapy. And I think people have to be really watching this. How it get is getting turned into a very a therapy exercise instead of a wisdom exercise. So there's a couple of points I'd like to make about that, but otherwise I'm perfectly fine.
Host 49:24
Right. Of course, the earliest and the last 100 years or so, the progression of being able to teach not just monks, but elderly and children, women and men, lay people as well as monastic some at that time would argue this itself was a progression of quote, unquote, watering it down, because before that, it was really just that you need to give up. You need to sever your ties from your your lay communities, and go at this headstrong with nothing else in your mind and heart but this full of. Liberation and so different different contexts and different places, would would argue that in different ways.
Grahame White 50:06
Yeah, I think, I think these days, the the idea of full liberation is really a thing of the past for the general public, right? But in saying that, I think if a certain point can be reached, then it's really beneficial for people. So just enough, you know, is enough. And then you never know. You know. If you have an idea of the Buddhist teachings, you know what will happen in the next birth, etc, etc. The conditions may be there for them to progress further. But it's important that you asked me last week or so about what I think is the criteria for a teacher, and I do think that they need to have, and this is straight from the side doors, they need to have the early inside experiences. That's what transforms the mind arising and passing means, if they can do that, then that would be good. In my, you know, very limited teaching experience, there's only been a few people that I've taught have been able to reach that early stage, whereas in Burma, that happens often within two or three days often. But here it's a lot harder. Mahasi was asked once, when he visited the IMS in 1979 he was asked once, what's the difference between Asian practitioners and Western practitioners. And he said, It's the ability to concentrate. Westerners have a harder time concentrating also because they've been brought up in an individual, individual society, they don't pay attention or follow the instruction properly. He was right out there told him. He said, That's the difference. When that all comes down to sada. I think that in this present day, the sadha is not strong, or so strong in it's treated more of a as a therapy a lot of the time, which is helpful for people, you know, and beneficial for people, but it's not the goal of the Buddha teachings. So I guess that's what I want to say. But I look it's, I don't have any fear about the future with it. You know, there'll be a younger generation coming through. And hopefully they've been well trained. They've set up training centers in Spirit Rock with Jack and Kornfield, etc, etc, and a number of the only thing I'd be worried about is when you look at the Dharma community today, especially in Australia, I don't know in America, because haven't been to America for a few years now, but it's usually middle aged to older people, white people, yeah, yeah, oh, yeah. And I rarely get younger people coming, right? So I think the emphasis should be this, in this current day, which they used to do at IMS, is encourage younger people to take up meditation, right, right? Because they're the next generation. You know, all of us, you know, all of us oldies are hippies from the 1970s they're at the end of the the board, you know, yeah. And so we need these young people coming through. So I think that the Dharma should be concentrating on and possibly in America, that's happening because they're much more into that kind of thing. But it's not happening here.
Host 53:50
Well, I think I don't know so much about that, but I think another issue are the the old guard still holding on to some authority as gatekeeper.
Grahame White 54:05
And that's the problem. Yeah, yeah, that's the problem.
Host 54:08
Yeah. But I know in the Goenka organization, at least in America, that's that's quite a serious thing they're going through and looking at, and that's why I referenced as well that many of this, this old guard, is white, and so even if they were from the more progressive crowd, there was still a different consciousness then and how aware they were being of inclusivity and of not having had the experience of being a a minority of some kind in their society. They they set up meditate meditation institutions that, in some ways, subconsciously, at least replicated some aspects of the bias in wider society. And that's why you need that inclusion to be able to bring that awareness of of things that if you're if you're not in that minority, you just simply don't know.
Grahame White 54:55
Yeah, you don't know. That's right, and that's, I don't think that's good. It's not. But it's not the way to go, you know. I mean, it happens. It happens in Burma as well as you know, I'm not saying that. You know, the the Europeans are in the by themselves. You know, for the young Burmese teachers, it's very hard to teach, you know, because of the older generation having the same mind state. But now the thing is that the younger generation in Burma, the teachers in Burma, are coming up because all the oldies, the famous ones that we all know, they're gone, they're passed into their next birth, or Nirvana, or whatever, they've gone. So the young people have to come up. So I think it's important that the people like myself and the older people, we have to encourage this. You have to encourage the younger people. You know, if you want the Dharma to keep going, you shouldn't have these clicks, and you shouldn't have used to be encouraging for old people, but they need to have faith. The sad is the important part, and that's hard to generate now.
Host 56:07
You know, authority is a thing, and no matter who you are, no matter what you believe in, no matter what your values are, it is just an intrinsic human quality.
Grahame White 56:19
Exactly, right? Yeah, I've had that. I'm not so much like that actually. And there's, of course, there's always a little bit there. And maybe I've never come into it in like, fully, but I've had it happen to me with older I don't know if I should tell you these stories on the podcast, but anyway, I've had these experiences and Spirit Rock and even in Hawaii, and I looked, what are you doing here, you know, what are you doing? But I've definitely had that experience where the older, more authority, authoritarian people have come down on me. Yeah, absolutely.
Host 57:01
Yeah. So there's this constant balance and tension between the the curiosity of the youth, the ways they're able to think about things in untethered to the past and in new and and unthought of ways before, and then the the sense of authority and tradition and knowledge and wisdom of the older generation, where there each has something to learn from the other, but there can definitely be a sense of the younger feeling like they're not being listened to, but of the older saying, Well, who are you to tell me? Who are you to think you know more than my years of experience? And sometimes they don't know more, but they just have a different way of looking at things that allow them to to make connections or advance in ways that that simply aren't apparent to those who've been doing it for a while.
Grahame White 57:49
Not at all. And it's, you're definitely right. It definitely needs to be worked on. Because how can you tell between an older person? I mean, there's, I won't go, I can't remember exactly the story, but there's some some suttas, because I noticed in America now, a lot of the Western teachers are really into their sutta study and presenting it in this way. But there's a sutta about this old monk and this young kapia Monk student that describes this or gives as a perfect metaphor for the older person not really knowing, and the younger person knows. I go into that at the moment, but I've known in Burma when I was there young people, like 1012, years old, sitting in meditation and experiencing very high levels of insight. So you can't say that the young people, it doesn't matter what age, it depends on parent, it depends on conditions, it depends on so much. Yeah, so, you know, I mean, I guess we all have that in as you know, some authority figure, but it doesn't mean that the young person doesn't know, you know, some of them know they know better than the older people sure you know. So they've got to work on that. I don't know how they're going to work on that. It's not my area.
Host 59:09
But so you reference Burma just now, and to bring it back to Burma. Burma, of course, this is an Insight Myanmar podcast. Have you studied under nothing but Burmese teachers, really, and took pilgrimages, led pilgrimages there, invited Burmese monks to Australia and us. And of course, for the last year and a half, Burma has been on fire. Its military coup has disrupted everything they have. It has split the society. It's been the military so called Protecting Buddhism is the lie that they give, and really it's been destroying Buddhism. It's been destroying the possibilities of dharma. So I wonder your reflections being someone who's had such a close relationship to the Burmese people, the Burmese Buddhist tradition, the country of Myanmar. What have. Been your thoughts watching the last year and a half unfold, and also watching it, not as a novice, as someone who is trying to catch up to Burmese history or Burmese Buddhist institutions, but as someone who has spent a large part of your life really very much involved and integrated in this part of Burmese Buddhist society, and not, and not just Burmese Buddhist society, but it's, it's terrible oppression for so many years. So this is not new for people of your generation. As another iteration, what have your been your thoughts and feelings and following this?
Grahame White 1:00:33
Well, you know, there's been certain, certain reflection, or certain emotions going on in my mind, like shock and horror, of course. You know, real sadness at the Dharma is no longer there, you know, in the sense that it was, you know, for many, many years. And it must be so hard for all the people there, but Burma is a country that, if you go back over 1000 years, has always had this upheavals coming from time to time, hasn't it? You know? So it's like, and they've always had this group of people who talking about power, have wanted to have the power in Burma over the people, and that's been going on for generation after generation after generation. It just at the present moment. It's just really severe, and it must be so hard for people, and I really feel so much compassion for them. I want to go back, you know, but I'm not going to go back, of course, you know? I miss going to Burma, and I miss being with the Burmese people, and I miss being in those areas, but there's no way we're going to go back. But I think the Burmese people also have other qualities, even though the government is trying to beat them down. You know, to the to pulp, if you like, their Sardar is so strong. So I think that what will happen over a period of time is that there'll be probably slow change coming up, and then there'll be another big incident that'll happen that will change it again. This would, I think is going to happen, and I think it'll come from the sada of the people, and you're working with them, so you know, you know, but it may take some time for it to happen. My understanding of the culture in Burma is, I keep referring to this over and over again. I hope it's not boring, but their Sadr is really good, and so they'll come through. They'll come through, and they will go through this phase because they understand impermanence and that these situations arise. They've been living with it for 1000 years and up to the present day, and this one will pass as well, but they'll need a lot of help. They'll need a lot of help from a lot of people, right?
Host 1:02:54
And following up on that last point, the last question was looking more at a perspective from within Burma, this question is more looking at those practitioners, largely Western practitioners, who have benefited from their association with Burma. There's this tension between on, I guess, on one far extreme. You can say, you know, sit on the cushion with your eyes closed, and you've been spending your whole life looking at the outside world, trying to fix things outside. Now you you do this act, which is this interest, introspective act of of observing the body and mind within, and this has no association with whatever politics or community or or even, some would say, religion that you choose to follow. It's, it's, it's really separated from all of that. On the other far end, you have engaged Buddhism. And Buddhism that is looking at social justice and racism and environmental problems and and and things of that nature, and is really looking at it, taking it, saying that this Dharma practice that you're doing, if you're not bringing this into the world and trying to take, take this, this wisdom, and applying it in worldly situations, then what are you really doing? These are, these are two extremes of an argument. Of course, there's a lot of space. There's a lot of gradations and gray areas within but never before Is it coming to such a fore as what's going on in me and those, those Western meditators that are that have benefited, and many have, through pilgrimage or tradition or teacher, have been or even monkhood or nunhood have benefited from their association with Myanmar. What? What? What do you feel is the role or the responsibility, or what encouragement would you give for a Western meditator who is is safely in their own country, and perhaps not understanding deeply the politics and the history and the culture beyond the practice, what would you say their their role could be or should be at this time?
Grahame White 1:04:51
Well, look, it's a that's a very, very good question. I mean, to some degree, I. So my my thinking on this particular top topic is that, if you've what's important is gratitude, right, for what you've received. And of course, you understand this, and you know most people will understand. So it's really up to the individual to decide where they want to go with it. But I would think on the engaged Buddhism level is the way to go at the present moment, but we have to be careful on that level. So like, personally, I haven't had the I've just been teaching, you know, and I tried to teach in the style that the side doors would be, but I haven't been engaged in an outside activity, as you have with the Burmese democracy movement. So I think what you're doing is absolutely wonderful, and your all your colleagues around you is absolutely wonderful. Personally, I'd like to be more involved in that, but I haven't had the opportunity or to be able to do that, you know, but I'd like to have the opportunity, because I think it's really important that people are able to help without fear. But also what's important is that we has the Dalai Lama always says, is to be tried, to do this with without the Ill Will or hatred. And that's the hard part. But I would I tend towards the engaged Buddhist side of things now than sitting on your backside on the cushion. You know that it's time we have to help. You know someone, people need to help. That's for sure. I don't personally know how to do that particularly, so maybe I can get some pointers from you to be able to do that. But what I do personally is I just try and teach as much as I can with people, and try to bring them, you know, and in when I'm doing these teaching things, I'm mentioning Burma. I'm mentioning the side doors a lot, trying to teach in that way that they'll understand a little about Burma, so I'm doing that. But maybe that's not enough. Maybe there's more that could be done, yeah, and that's why I'm really grateful for yourself and Insight Myanmar and what you're doing with Burma, yeah.
Host 1:07:18
Well, I think what we've tried to do as a platform is, is, is show, be the bridge that shows people that they can do something. Yeah, they can do that. Yeah, they that their their choice of the extent of how much they do, how much they give, and in what ways they do because they're there. There are non violent sides to this, and there are also sides that are not non violent. People have to draw the line in their own just as Myanmar, people in the country, supporters and allies outside, have to draw their own lines of what they're willing to support and what they're not. But certainly there for those that care in any way or to some extent, there are, there are a multitude of ways that one can choose where they draw those lines and what they give. And I think our platform has tried to make that connection just a bit more straightforward and a bit more to give information, to educate, while to give context, to bring out voices, while also illustrating the many ways that that the many options, the many ways that people can choose to be involved, given their own volition. So, yeah, yeah,
Grahame White 1:08:32
No, I think that's really important. And then when you think about it, when I think about it, because having been in Burma in the early, early days, as we had discussed in previous podcasts, the fear around it is really strong, you know. And so it must be so hard for them at the moment, living with the fear of the military attack, you know, for what they do, that's the thing that really gets me where it really gets me in the gut, when I think about it, you know. So they're very brave, brave to confront the government forces and get on with their everyday lives in that kind of atmosphere must be really difficult, because it's been going on for so long. Even my small experience in the 70s, the fear was always there, but the violence wasn't there, but the possibility of violence was always there. Oh yeah, oh yeah. But they didn't have the violence of the current situation from 1988 right? And preceding years. So, gee, it must be hard. Joah, God, I tell you, and then with all the centers closed, a lot of the senior side doors now passing away. Very difficult, the economic blockades, the whatever, you know, so hard, the COVID situation.
Host 1:09:54
Yeah, I think if there's one universal message coming from the people in Myanmar that. It's very important for foreigners, foreign listeners, not to get confused on it's that they and this is what I've heard so consistently. I've not really heard one dissenting voice offering any other alternative understanding or desire, and that's that there is a there is a really aligned voice coming out that whatever hardships they go through, those hardships are worth being able to end this oppression by the military, absolutely. So there, there have been some, some kind of, you know, like when, when Chevron or total the oil companies talked about how they one of the or some of the other factories, they justify their existence there now by saying, Oh, well, the economy is really hard and or people need their lights on, or anything else, whatever excuses they say, people reply, we would rather be in the dark and and have a better chance of overthrowing this military than than giving giving some kind of lifeline where it just extends the misery. And so I think, I think for those foreign listeners that that are hearing this, the message is very clear that there is no greater priority and no hardship. They're not worth suffering under to be rid of this oppression for their lifetime and their children and grandchildren's lifetime. And so you know that, and this is a big this podcast will air sometime in the future. So this is a bit, this will be a bit of old news when it airs. But at the moment that we're recording this, the military has just opened the country for tourism, and that are starting to come tourism, business people, probably meditators as well. And some of those are clean, are making claims of how, Oh, they're there. Their visit is going to be for the people, or they're gonna, they're gonna be helping in this or that way. Well, the people don't want you there like they are very clear that they they do not want foreign cash dollars to have an influx, and they do not want the military legitimized and and so I think whatever, however foreign listeners are looking to support, you know, listen to the will of the people, like whatever, and when this podcast airs, it'll be a new set of context and news and updates at that point. And there is now, but whatever, whatever the context is when this airs, I think it's very important not to be selfish or to fall into the propaganda the military or justifications, but to really listen to what is, what are the people saying that they want? What is the overriding voice that's coming? And if that assuming that fits into your your own ethical considerations, because I do understand that, that that some of the things that they may want are things that are uncomfortable for us to hear over here, not knowing what they're going through, but to align one's own behavior of do's and don'ts with what we hear the people are saying, and to support them in the ways that they are saying they want to be supported, and not the ways that you might think they want To or they should be, but really being in line, really deferring, and I think there's one thing this platform has done is consistently, I hope so I've definitely aspired to do this is to defer to those that are on the ground, to defer to their voice, their understanding, their analysis, their judgment, and to ask questions, to be curious, to even To offer guidance or ideas, but in the end, to defer to what they are saying, I think there's nothing more important than that.
Grahame White 1:13:26
I agree tightly with that, unless that's a similar thing to when, after the 1988 killings, the Aung San Suu Kyi, because that's the year they were putting on the promotion for international tourism to Burma. And Aung San Suu Kyi came out and said, We don't want tourists. It's good if you're a meditator, you can come here, but we don't want tourists. And of course, people didn't pay any attention to that at all.
Host 1:14:03
Right. Oh, it's exciting. It's exciting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really appreciate this reflection on such an important and sensitive topic, and appreciate, in general, just the range of conversation we've had over these hours. It's just been wonderful. And I want to close on somewhat of a lighter note, a lighter reflection, something that I know is personal to your life, and that's surfing. I know you are quite the surfer, and there's I'm not a surfer, but I've definitely heard about the zen of surfing, so to speak. And so I'm wondering, being a lifetime surfer, and still a surfer today, and a lifetime Dhamma practitioner and teacher. If you can talk a bit about what you love about surfing and perhaps some of the intersection of the experience of surfing and the experience of practicing Dhamma.
Grahame White 1:14:53
Well, you can talk about it from a couple of different viewpoints. You can talk about it from a strictly BA. Buddhist does viewpoint where the mind is full of craving for pleasure, and that's the very true with surfing, because mostly it's a very pleasurable experience. And I've been surfing since I was, you know, I guess three or four years old, because my mother was a surfer, and she used to take us down to the beach, which is very close to my house. And I've been doing it now nearly 75 and I'm still have that same feeling and same craving in the mind for surfing, and it has got that meditative feel to it from time to time in certain situations, certain waves that you catch, and just the lifestyle surrounding it gives you a sense of, if you like, calmness and tranquility. There's a tranquility in surfing. There's also not a tranquility, especially these days, when it's so crowded and people get agitated about it all, but for me, it's like being in nature, being in the water, and it's a really good way of just letting go of the defilements in the mind for a period of time. If you're not doing it on land, in the water, you can relax and you can just catch some nice waves. And it's great. I like it a lot, but it's not interfered with my dharma life. And I remember, just to close out on this with a story in budh Gaya in 1971 when I was a monk and no one else was there, I used to go for walks. I was there during the rainy season, so the river was running, and I'd come down from the Thai temple down to the river where the Burmese Vihara is, and I'd sit on the bank of the river, and instead of being very holy and meditative, I'd be looking at the ripples of the water as they were hitting the bank, forming a barrel, a tube, as they say in surfing, and I could feel this excitement coming. That's how deeply ingrained surfing is. But I'd shake my head and say, Oh, no, not now. Just enjoy, for enjoyment sake. And so I just, I discovered that each afternoon, when I went down there, the craving started to go away, and I was just enjoying nature itself. But of course, then when I got back to Australia, I was back mad, keen, you know, a teenager again, and, you know, into it. And still, now I travel a lot surfing. I like it. It really I think it's really helpful. It keeps you strong and it keeps you fit, and it's really good mentally as well. You know, to do something like that, it's beautiful.
Host 1:17:54
Well, then I have to ask you, as a close out question, sharing your favorite place in the world where you've served and sharing your favorite place in the world where you've meditated?
Grahame White 1:18:05
Well, that's a good question. I've been to a lot of places. You know, from Africa to America to Hawaii. I think there's a particular place in Hawaii I very much like, and there's another place in Java, which I like very much, which is called ba to cut us. And I like going there surfing. It's very simple. It still hasn't it's starting to get a bit crowded, but it still has that Asian village atmosphere around it, and I like that a lot. And also I like coming to Hawaii because I teach Dharma there, and I get to go surfing out of Waikiki, which is very nice indeed, with all the brothers out there. So it's great every time I turn up in Hawaii, which I haven't for now two and a half years, I paddle out at Queens in Waikiki and the Hawaiian guys like, know who I am now. And they say, oh, ba, you're over the teacher retreat. Yes. Oh, well, enjoy, you know, come and get a few ways with us first. And so there's that Aloha that I like about surfing as well. That can be pretty intense for some people, but for me, fortunately, it's always been pretty mellow. So those two places I like a lot. There's many places in Australia that are really good, yeah, and meditate.
Host 1:19:33
What's your what's been your your favorite place, your special place to meditate that you'd like to go back to today?
Grahame White 1:19:40
Well, you know, this is a funny thing. I'd like to go back to Burma. I really like this. I like chaswa up in the saga and hills, side of luck in the center. That's really a beautiful place. That's one of the places that I really like. Going to not for a retreat, but just for the experience of the Dharma. Is, of all places, Buddha Gaya, I love sitting underneath the birdie tree, and I don't answer Yeah, and I don't care how many people there are, how much noise there is. It's just wonderful. And some of my meditation experience there has been phenomenal. You just sit, you know, and it's great. And a lot of people complain about it, but I love it. I just sit there underneath the ba de tree, noise, trumpets, Sri Lankans Tibetan chanting, what a place to be. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah, that's it for me.
Host 1:20:51
Well, that's wonderful. Thank you for this time. Thank you for this. This has been a wonderful series of conversations, and just really appreciate the chance to to hear these things in detail and to bring this voice out, to amplify it and bring it out to more people who I'm sure will appreciate it as well.
Grahame White 1:21:08
Thank you, and thank you to Insight Myanmar and all the colleagues there. Keep up the good work. It's been a great pleasure of mine to talk with you and reflect on the Dhamma. May we all be happy and peaceful.
Host 1:21:51
I'll be honest, not only is asking for donations, my least favorite thing in the world to do, I find it pretty uncomfortable as well. Yet it is an unavoidable but necessary task in order to ensure that our platform can continue to bring you stories from post COVID And unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that there is a basic minimum cost to keep our engine humming. So please allow me to take a moment for that least favorite and uncomfortable thing to do and ask sincerely for your generosity in supporting our mission. If you found value in today's show and think others might as well, we ask that you take a moment to consider supporting our work. Thank you for taking the time to hear our speed. And with that, it's off to work on the next episode. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions aiding those local communities. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement, CDN, families of deceased victims, internally displaced person, IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and members, education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies, COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our non profit mission. Better Burma, any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website, betterburma.org, and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit card. You can also give via PayPal, by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon, Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search Better Burma on each platform, and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts, or email us at info, at betterburma.org. That's Better Burma one word spelled B, E, T, T, E R, B, U, R, M, A.org. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artisan communities across Myanmar, available at alokacrafts.com any purchase will not only support these artisan communities, but also our nonprofit's wider mission, that's Aloka Crafts spelled, A, L, O, K, A, C, R, A, F, T, S, one word, alokacrafts.com thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.