Transcript: Episode #295: Shaken, Not Silenced
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:18
For any Burmese language speakers tuning in today, we wanted to let you know that our better Burma mission has launched three Burmese language podcasts, Myanmar, revolutionary tales, dark era of Burma and Myanmar, peace, women and security. These programs can be found on our website as well as on any of your preferred podcast platforms. We invite you to take a listen, but For now, let's get on with This episode. Really happy to be joined on this episode of Insight, Myanmar podcast with Ma Hnin, and we're going to be going into her journey, which I think as listeners will hear, is not only somewhat of a roller coaster, but also a roller coaster that is a microcosm for the roller coaster that is the recent history of Burma itself, in the highs and lows and now cautious optimism, we could say, but let's go to the beginning of that story, and let's Before we do that, let's welcome man and for joining us. Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and have this conversation. Thank
Ma Hnin 2:26
Thank you so much for having me like I said earlier. This is my first time doing a podcast. So you know, my heart is racing, but I like that for myself. Somehow, I'm so thrilled in being in that position as well. So thank you for having me.
Host 2:46
I'm thrilled as well, because we've connected for some time. Over the past few years, other listeners have suggested to have you on and tell your story, which is more than worth telling, which is what we're doing now. So it's been years in the in the making, so really excited to have this and put it out to our audience, and let's get right into it, because your story starts with family, community activism and trauma right from the early get go. So and your even your very birth comes at a time in a year that's quite significant. So kick us off with that.
Ma Hnin 3:19
Yeah, so we can start with getting born right into it. So I was born on the sixth of the eight of the 88 the famous 88 so and then my parents, especially my dad. He himself, is part of the student movement in the 88 and yeah, which is, I don't know much about it until, like, when I was 14 or even later, because it was like something that I grew up with my grandmother. So that's something i They don't usually tell you. They just say, your parents are away, so you just accept that. So yeah, the whole dad being a part of student movement and why he's been away. So is my mom that I don't hear or find out until, like when I was teenage year. Even then I don't necessarily wants to know about it, because by that time I we were already migrated to Australia. So it's a whole new life that I am trying to adjust myself learning English properly. You know, having to switch so many level of you know, from you. Someone who grew up in molyne to go into refugee camps to Melbourne, and so the switch on the changes that you just have to adapt, which is something I'm very used to now. I'm very always thank thankful for the experience that I have gone through. So, yeah, so from the bond to the 14, which I have jumped quite a stretch, but and then, you know, now, looking back it, at it, I'm 35 and I'm full at the front doing what my dad, what my dad and my parents were involved in. So it's a 360 Yeah, and at the same time, which is something I wanted to share with the audience. And also, maybe also I'm telling myself as well, is as along the way that I'm going right now, I'm also learning about myself, about what my parents did and and also the revolution as well. So in a sense that, yes, I am re traumatizing in certain episodes, but at the same time, I'm also learning, if that makes sense.
Host 6:30
Yeah, it absolutely does. And when I think about you saying that you're now treading over some of the same ground that your father did, I had this this thought form in my mind. I don't know how much that's beautiful and how much that's tragic, but certainly it's a it's a microcosm of what this country and society has gone through. But let's go to those early years. So you mentioned so you're born in 1988 a pivotal moment for the Burmese democracy movement. You your your parents are involved, and so you end up spending those next many years at a refugee camp being raised by your grandmother, your journey goes in other directions after that. But you mentioned how for many years, you really had no idea what, what, what your parents and especially your father, was doing and why you were in the situation that you were in. As many of us as children don't really understand our immediate circumstances, but later, of course, you would go on to understand the contours of what 1988 was about, as well as, more specifically, what, how your parents were actually involved in that. So as you began to reconstruct that, what? What can you tell us now about what was happening during those, those first few years of your life?
Ma Hnin 7:37
Yeah, so my dad actually left when I was 47 days old. My mom left like the country a year later. So the 12 years I was in Burma, I I spent most of my time with my grandmother, who actually is a chef, and we actually live in two floor house, which is like on the ground is the restaurant, and then upstairs, that's where we sleep. So growing up in the childhood, my memory of my grandmother cooking every day, the first thing I wake up is people chopping meat and, you know, picking vegetables, preparing for the restaurants to get ready. So that's what I grew up with, until in 1999 that's when my grandmother passed away.
Host 8:40
What was your favorite dish that she cooked?
Ma Hnin 8:44
Oh, this has always been my struggle, because I grew up in the restaurant so I can pick and choose whatever I want to eat, you know. So I've always been privileged in that department. But, you know, grass is always greener on the other side, so I actually prefer eating and love more of the street vendors that come during my after nap. Actually talking about that the nap meals, a certain street vendor food. Those were actually my first Burmese food on the menu of father's office, which is a bar that I run in Yangon, which I will get, I'm sure we'll get in there. So I grew up in the restaurant environment, and I grew up with my grandmother, who is my father, who is my mother, during the 12 years time, I actually spoken with my mom and dad probably three times on the phone. Oh, wow, yeah, so, but those three times were like, you know, the International phone call is, it's a rare thing in Myanmar and, like, it's the phone. Will ring like, five house down our house, someone will have to run down to my grandma like, Oh, your daughter calling you. And then, you know, my grandma will come and grab me. Or when I'm around, because I'm normally out and about playing. So, um yeah, those, those are the only so the only memory of my parents is those three phone calls and my grandmother have their wedding photos hanged up in the restaurant. So somehow there is the recognition of yes, there is my parents, but then my parents is my grandmother. So those are my early childhood until when my grandmother passed away, that's when my mom trying to get me out to reconnect with them in the refugee camps. So people always ask me, like, Isn't your mom trying to get you out during all this year the tragedy of the dynamic between my grandmother and my mother, my grandmother basically raised me up when I was young, so she literally told her daughter, you can have your daughter when I'm no longer here. So that is also another reason why I didn't meet my parents until when I was 12, and then so I had like, this little gap of me. So I grew up in molynei, and then we after my grandmother passed away, I went and joined my other grandmother, who is my dad's mom, in Yangon for six months. But I remember, like monsoon season, and I see my auntie, my dad's sister walking into this my school class, and next thing you know, she was talking to a teacher, and then teacher came and got me, and then she just said, we have to go to a hairdresser. I was like, okay, so you know, as you're young, you don't question, you just follow along. And I had a very boy haircut, and then they just, my auntie just told me, You're going to see your parents. That was it. And next thing you know, I traveled three days crossing the border to reach to my parents refugee camp. So up to certain point, to the BOMA, like I think from Yangon, we had to go to Yi and that's where my auntie stopped joining us. But then my uncle still continuing to take me to the border of Thai, near my border, and then my mom had a hired Thai detective to come and get me from the border to the Manila camp, which is near kanchadaburi. So yeah, and after three days later, I am right in front of the refugee camp.
Host 13:21
Just to drive home, in case those listeners didn't catch up on it. The reason for that haircut?
Ma Hnin 13:27
Okay, so the reason for the haircut, which I didn't know either why I my whole clothing was changing as wearing a boy T shirts and shorts. And later, I found out that there's a potential that they could if you're a girl, you could get snitched away, you know, to be sold, or any sort of security reason for being a woman can be snitched. So, yeah, that was the instruction that come from my mom and the people who's trying to get me out, right?
Host 14:08
So then you're with your parents for the first time in a refugee camp. Also for the first time. What was that like?
Ma Hnin 14:14
Yeah, so the first time seeing my parents in real life, and the first time I am going to a refugee camp, and the first time I'm meeting my two younger sisters. So growing up in Myanmar, I was the youngest, so I don't like sharing. That was my struggle. The first memory of it. And um, I mean, they say it's your parents, it's your parents, right? And then, because all my life, I've been seeing this, their wedding photo, yeah, they look familiar. That was like the brain adjustment that I I did it myself. I guess. Yeah, for 12 years old, and then I lived in two different refugee camps. So the refugee camp I arrived to is it's called manilo. So manilo camp is not a refugee camp, actually, it is a student. So the camp was formed for the ADA students. Yeah, so the then there is the refugee camp, which we moved to, which is called tahin, which is much more closer to the border, where is Manila, is closer to Bangkok. So to be honest with you, I don't actually have a lot of memories in that refugee camp. I think I blocked my own memory so there are certain parts that I remember comparison to the first refugee camp and second refugee camp. So the first refugee camp, my dad is actually a chairman of the refugee camp, and in at the same time he does screen printing flat he's making flags all the protest signs. So this is where the creative parts come from. And then my mom runs tea shops in the refugee camp. That's how they've been living in the refugee camp with my two younger sisters. And then we had to move to this whole new camp that there was no un providing they were only a certain can of food or a certain rice that were only delivering, and then probably like the size of the room that the family actually live. So it was huge changes. That's the only kind of thing that I remember and me trying to adjust my living situation with parents and sisters, kind of that was also on top of that, it's a it's a refugee camp that there is no light at night time, like there's a sharing, shower sharing, you know, toilets. So this is all, like, very new. It's just almost you don't have time to question, yeah. You just live Yeah. And then 2000 or two, early 2000 or two. That's when my mom, my dad, my mom, was like, We gotta go. We've been here 14 years. Come on to my dad. And so originally was supposed to go to America because of 911 there is no refugee was taken. So my mom's like, Okay, we're gonna go. We have to leave here. So we migrated to Australia, Melbourne, that's where another home is.
Host 18:16
Right. Yeah, and did you ever figure out or reconstruct later in life what it was your dad, your both your parents, and your dad especially, was doing in 1988 that forced them to have to relocate and live for so many years in the refugee camp.
Ma Hnin 18:30
To be honest, I don't, I still don't have the answer, like completely, because I actually asked my dad in 2022 around September, I think this is when, right after I finished hosting event in London and Manchester, we Were trying to work with diaspora community. Burmese diaspora community, and we hosted incredible four day exhibitions in Camden, London, and also we did one day exhibition in Manchester. I know that my dad is a part of absdf, but there's no in depth of how he's involved, where where he is, how long he did, what kind of thing he did. I don't have these details, but I know he's a part of it. So after the exhibitions and the fundraising, even previously, we have mentioned that the money we get is to support artists. You know, the to support whoever that need, it, especially on the ground for the artists. And yet I still got this question of, Oh, is she going to give some money to absdf, Hmm.
Host 19:56
Oh, because of your my dad. Interesting. Yeah. Is or Is absdf still active?
Ma Hnin 20:03
Yes, they are. They are still active. I think they only do trainings now, but my dad is not active anymore, nor I don't have any association with the absdf, sure. So that was the that's when I was like, Okay, I need to know what you did. That's when I was like, You need to tell me what you've done, because I don't have answer to that. When people are asking me all these questions, because, as myself, I didn't know, right? So that's when he was like, Okay, if you really want to know, then I will write you a book. Wow. So he was started writing on his birthday, which is fifth of October in 2022 Unfortunately, he passed away last year.
Host 21:00
Oh, no, I'm so sorry. It's okay.
Ma Hnin 21:06
So, yeah, it's a, I don't know where this book is. He has written stuff. So there's my mom left still for me to ask. But even then, my mom still didn't meet my dad for a couple of years. He was they were separated, even though they were in the jungle. So I'm a bit hesitant to ask her, because I'm more closer to my dad in a revolution, way, I'm closer to my mom, in a personal way, is who I go to. But when I come to revolution, and, you know, activism is someone where I go to my dad.
Host 21:52
I mean, that's and that there's just so much there. It's this, um, it becomes this profound mystery for you that is not exactly closed, but the pathways to finding that answer become more limited and more more effort to do. And it also just strikes me as you say that you you're close to your mom in a personal way, but your dad is the revolutionary sense. And I think this, I want to underscore this, especially for foreign listeners, that sometimes when we're looking at situations in Burma or anywhere else, people say, Well, I'm not so into politics. So you know, I don't really do the political thing. And and then when you break down, well, what? What is politics? And in some situations, when you say you're not into politics, it means, well, I'm making a political decision. By pretending that I'm not making a political decision. I'm saying I'm not into politics, and that is my political decision. And when you're in and certainly in the case in Burma, when the very nature of human rights and safety and security in the country, and you're choosing to engage or not engage, for whatever reason, this becomes and this and we also see this intergenerational sense of going through the years and through the decades, of how this, this decision to want to engage and try to see a better future for the nation past the current military regime or the previous iterations of them, that this becomes a dynamic linkage from one generation to the next, and again, it's I go back to what I said. I don't know how much that's beautiful and how much that's tragic, but it is what it is. And so you're left with this mysterious vestige of your father's revolutionary legacy, which is as yet still undefined, but which you are living through His Spirit in your current revolutionary stance.
Ma Hnin 23:38
It is, and and we have the crossover. Actually, this is something I that's a really special moment for me and my dad. I think that's how we both connected and less bitter towards him, while leaving me all this?
Host 24:01
Yeah, yeah, then you have that.
Ma Hnin 24:02
So, so the cross time was actually the coup, when the first of February, when the coup happened, and then I think fifth or sixth, when people would start going out on the street. So I, my dad called me, and he said, What are you up to? So before the coup, I created a creative space in Yangon during covid. You know, you have a lot of passion during covid, either you bake or you just end up drinking a lot of whiskey and smoking weed, and you have way too many ideas. So and then, yeah, I guess the crazy idea we're trying to make it happen. August 2000 The 22,020 August, that's where we created this creative space for all the creatives to come hang out like you know, it's a place where they can do whatever they want and different subcultures trying to meet. That was the space. And so my dad and his friends used to come around with whiskeys. And then my friends, they will come around with whatever they're drinking. And some days, you know, they do their own things, and some days they sit around. And the best conversation I saw my dad and my friends had was one night they drank too much, and they both were yelling at each other on political issue, which is it was so incredible to see because you don't tend to see Women Act, younger woman activism, activist. And then there's my dad, age, from the 88th generation, they are disagreeing on things, and they are confronting on each other, which is something I've never seen before. So that was beautiful. And I know that this place is a good place for that kind, and I want more of that, so we just call it the creative space. So that space was where my dad, he would come and we were buying second hand furnitures, so he would come and make cushions for us. So, like, it was kind of like, you know, bonding. He was bringing his screen printing kits. And, you know, he wanted to sew. He was also starting to reconnect with his creative work again, and because of the space, and he was also, he know all my friends. So this was pretty cool. This is pretty cool.
Host 26:56
Yeah, about that contentious argument that they had? Do you have any memory of the nature of the argument, what they were arguing on either side? I think that would be interesting in and of itself, to have an understanding of where these different generations were coming from in looking at the political issue at the time.
Ma Hnin 27:14
I think it was about Al sansuki, right? I didn't really, because this is another thing I know. It was about her, and, you know, this is something the two generations share, and that was pretty much it. I try not to get involved, and we're just there as an audience. So there was my dad friends and my other friends, like the three of us would just sit in the corner and just watch them too, arguing away, or debating, you will call it. So yeah, I don't have the detail in depth of what they were exactly, yeah, which is plenty for them to argue. So yeah, it was more of the the new government thing, part of where, you know, NLD government, how is that still wasn't the full freedom that the young people wanted it. And this is where my dad was stepping in, how, you know, you can't have a black and white change. And this is where the argument was going, I believe this is the essential argument.
Host 28:22
Was it a transition in reality or name only?
Ma Hnin 28:27
Yeah, yeah. So the crossing over time was when the coup happened, the protest was happening. That's when dad was coming to my house and I said, I'm going out for protest. He was like, I'm coming with you. Oh, wow. So that was the first time. So our space was in buchalesi, and then we're going to sulei, which is only a few blocks away. I would normally walk but my dad's like, Oh, it's fine. We'll just get on a bus. Okay, I've never been on a young on bus before, ever. Oh, wow. And this was my first time going on a bus with my dad to go to protest, wow. Which was a special moment, yeah, and, and that was like, I was like, as we're walking down the crowd, and, you know, as he was putting his three fingers up, and I was taking photo of him, and I was like, What's the difference? What's the difference between your time and my time? And it's a real to be having this conversation with him and asking this kind of being in that situation at the same time. So he was like, Oh, you guys are just much more, way cooler and connected to each other. He's like, we want to know what's happening in tamwe If we were if something's happening in sulei because obviously there's no connections. And. Internet or phone line whatsoever, so and how it and also it was much more. It wasn't just the student. You know, there was a lot of people, just like, it wasn't just the young people. Is this is trying to say that is more diverse and a lot more that are coming out. So that was the one of the huge moment of him and I, and then, because the space that I had where a lot of creatives and a lot of young folks are coming into my door anyway, so it become the hub of where people come and rest. I will be cooking up food, and people, the people who knows the space during that time, they will be walking from sunshine to sulei. So they will stop by at my house, queue up, they will rest, they will smoke, they will drink whatever. And then they will make protest, sign, whatever they need, amazing, and then they will move on.
Host 31:05
How did that make you feel?
Ma Hnin 31:06
Oh, I I was so proud. I love it. I love seeing. But then also, you know, the I'm saying, the positive part of it, but also, I have seen the first you know we, we know the famous 72 hours, right? The first 72 hours. And there was a lot of trembling down on a lot of young folks, because it just, you know, the the dreams and their hopes and everything has been taken away. It's just almost quite shocking. It's happening in 2021 to them, you know, they just had that glimpse of the freedom, even for me, that's why I moved back, right? So, yeah, that was the downside of it. But then the pots and pans happening at 8pm so people will come, so they finish protests, and they'll come back home to my place around 5pm they're trying to not think for a minute, yeah, of this protest and coup and they continue drinking, somebody playing music, somebody writing, somebody drawing, somebody just having conversation, I think, which we're very good at, which we're very good at alternative way of resisting, right? Like, let's forget that for a moment, and then let's have this what we used to do, what the feel good time just for a short minute. And of course, we talk about the coup in the most dark humor way, which we still do now, I think that's the only way we can cope. You know, we, we, we're not. I don't think we're very good at swearing out loud, either, but I our coping mechanism is the dark humor.
Host 33:11
Can you give an example of what form that dark humor might take?
Ma Hnin 33:16
You know, for example, like me outline, right? We don't even want to call his name the disgusting part of him, but having to have his nickname, like, you know, our Don't be djibout, which mean, like, don't be like, shoddy you know, that could be one thing.
Host 33:35
You're giving us this glimpse into how the Burmese activist community, especially at this time, the ones who are out on the street and that those very first few weeks, you're giving us this window into the kind of inner language, speaking in code that they were doing. This is a I think this is very valuable for our listeners to have an understanding of how they were relating, how they were coming together. This is also historical evidence of what the vibe was at this time, and the longer we get away from it, the more the memories start to shift and lose the actual feeling of those those times and experiences and and I also wonder, you know, you you describe the pride you have in what you're providing, you describe the both the exhaustion but the exuberance combined with The dark humor of the groups that are coming and coalescing, and sometimes then the recalling that the coup and the lost dreams have taken place. The one thing you haven't touched upon, and I'm wondering if this was also a part of that time, or when it started to arise, was the fear and the terror that something could happen, and when, what form that started to take, and then when something did happen, the reaction to that crackdown as it started.
Ma Hnin 34:47
Yeah, going back to the proudness of it, right? This wasn't like this creative space was supposed to be for slack cultures to come. Have fun and all that, right? And when the coup happened, it was kind of, it just falling too naturally. It wasn't being forced. It was just like, it's there. It's for people to use so and then, you know, another moment with Dad was also, I think it would have been mid February to late February, that's when the they weren't any crackdown yet, or shooting the journalists. They didn't have any press jackets that nobody was printing them. So dad was like, I can print it. So we were doing screen printing at my house. We were doing six, 700 press jackets to go all around Myanmar. So, so it was something okay, what is it needed? What can we do first and then when the they were shooting down on the street, this is when we were starting to do first aid training, which is, it was crazy. So on the bogolyze very down the end of the road is there's always tea shop at end of the road, right? So my ex partner, who is British man, a white man, so I just tell him go to and sit at that tea shop the next three hours and look out for anyone, anyone who's coming to so there is more percussion that we're thinking of. But then, if you think about it now, even if the whole bunch of truck of soldiers going to come in, what is he going to do? What are we going to do? Right? Yes, there is a potential that could come and come and hit like, you know, knock on our door. We still have to continue doing, right? So I hosted two first aid training at my doorstep, and then that's when I was like, Okay, we need to go somewhere else, which is this when we kind of got help from French Institute. So we actually end up hosting there. So within two months, I think we end up hosting like 500 people. Wow. So it just because during that time when you some when somebody gets shot, it's only your friends has to take care, carry that body away and and also stop leading. And, you know, these kind of we don't grew up with the first aid training classes, you know, so this, that was something, they were eager. And also, on top of that, there's a snitch that we also have to worry about, like, if some someone that informed someone that we're doing a first aid training in French Institute. Like, it's fine if people are still in French Institute, but once they leave, that's when people will get in trouble. So we also have to the first time we toast it, we had to have a post passcode, or like, password. What's the password for learning first learning for first aid training.
Host 38:25
That's ridiculous. It's almost like the regime saying you do not have our permission to try to help those that we're harming.
Ma Hnin 38:33
Yeah, yeah. And so on the back of our head, yes, there is a security concern is there is, like, one thing you do is you have to keep continue going, but there's only certain things that we can do to minimize that security or, you know, in the back of our head. And of course, we weren't just providing first aid training. We were hiding people, you know, those worker unions, people who has to come and hide a certain people need a meeting place to have whatever the strategy, the planning they're having the early days of before the protest, when there was no Internet, even though there were strikes happening outside, we were getting, you know, sending photos of the street protests to embassies. So these photos are downloading places, and these things were also happening at my house? Oh, so it's not just like people coming in, you know, during protest art. It's like, that's what we say at the front, but what's really, what we're really doing in the back, we were handing out pepper spray because the, you know, it's a, it's some sort of protection that that. The only thing they could have in their hand, you know, they were, we were handing out mask, helmet, these kind of things where we were distributing, because we're right in downtown.
Host 40:12
So you're becoming a revolutionary center. Yeah, it reminds me there is a famous historian that said of Nazi occupied France during World War Two, that when the Nazi occupation was in full force, every city, every French citizen, had a choice of only one in three people they could become at that point. They could be a bad guy, a hero or a coward. You have to pick one. There's no other alternative. And I think, and then goes on to say that you simply cannot. If you're not living in this situation, you simply cannot determine ahead of time which of these three you'd want to be. I think I would not be a bad guy. I hope I would not be a coward. I There's no way I can sit here and tell you I'd be a hero not being in that situation. I think anyone claiming otherwise would be delusional. So you're actually living in that kind of scenario, and you're starting to trend. And even though you might modestly resist this, you're, you're, you're trending towards the the category of being a hero at that moment and so and with being a hero also means the consequences, potential consequences, and fears that can come with it. So was there as and this is all as you're describing, is all growing organically from a creative art space into a place to unwind with non violent protests to a revolutionary center, really so. And this is all building organically, and once that flow and momentum starts, it is hard. It would be hard to step in and try to mitigate the natural tendencies to want to see this go, but we know when this starts going in one direction, only one thing could happen eventually. And so did you as this was happening, did you start to to fear or to feel, what have I gotten myself into and what and and am I really ready to take on all the risks that this entails? What was your thought process going at this time?
Ma Hnin 42:02
Yeah, so and up towards March, that's when charter flights were leaving, or we call it zoo flight, because there was more animals on that flight than humans. So that was the information I was getting that people were leaving, which kind of stole that information, and then also the question you were asking, like, how much continue you wanting to go down that road? How much darker ends Do you want to? Which is also, can be the lighter tunnel as well. But, um, I have to, because I know whatever I do was doing in from first of February until end of March. Was like, I know in that past two months, they could just take me away. And I was also listening that there, when there were other arrests happening, that people like me, who hold us, people like me, as in repat, yeah, who hold different nationality passport, they were also taken away. Yeah. Nathan Mel, yeah, so there's other Burmese repat who has different nationally passport also has been taken away. So I was like, okay, it doesn't matter if you have the privilege of having a you know, Sean Tranel was Australian Exactly, exactly. So that was one thing too. Um, do I wait for them to come and knock on my door, or do I leave so I can continue helping, so that that was the two kind of you know, decision that is going into my head, and I know that the place was getting hot and heated, because where this the the space was right in front of it is the all the government people live there.
Host 44:13
Oh my gosh.
Ma Hnin 44:16
Yeah. So this is, this is crazy, because during at night time, at 8pm when we do like, we'll go, get out on the balcony and go and bang the pots and pans, you know, loudly. And that was also another stress release kind of form as well. You're like, banging. It's kind of like, you know, you're raiding, which is kind of also my therapy for during those days. So I know that how much. And then also, of course, the authority for that particular street, he could be dobbing in. He could be giving, I know he was giving messages to authority. Like, I think, a couple of nights before the whole streets, actually, there were soldiers coming in, but of course, they were looking for an OD representative. But even then, like, I was already on my, you know, emergency procedures and the amount of stress that I had to go into that, let's say, in that couple of hours, I couldn't handle it. We were we also had, like, some street watchers also coming and staying at my place as well. So I'm like, Okay, this is getting too much, because too much in a way that, if it's not only for me, but the people who are coming into this place is also going to be in trouble. This is something I have to think about like, because I'm taking this responsibility of having this place running. But what about the people when they come here? Am I giving them a protective place, or am I giving them a more reason for other people to come arrest? Sure, so this is where I have to come up and make a decision. And of course, the charter flight the time. Keep in mind that was covid, so we had to find an alternative way. And I know that I didn't want to go back to Australia, which is crazy, maybe because the Melbourne has so many lockdown during that time as well, there are 30 lockdowns. So I didn't want to go back to Australia. I know I want to continue helping and doing being in this so, yeah, I just packed in a suitcase left this place to someone. They continue running, but more of the creative space, rather than the revolutionary states.
Host 47:17
Yeah. The other thing I was going to ask you mentioned how, as it started to shift into a revolutionary space, you were, you were providing certain kinds of minimal protection towards those that were brave enough to continue going out with nonviolent protests in spite of the crackdowns that were happening. And as you were, as you and assume your friends and your team were providing those was there, was there a feeling as you were giving these items of fear of of terror, of knowing that you're, you're, you're suiting someone up and giving someone support that might not come back.
Ma Hnin 47:55
Um, no, I didn't think of it in that way, maybe I'm too optimistic in that that time you have to be, yeah, you have to be optimistic to be able to working and supporting. And you know, because there are so like, every day you're you are getting a phone call or a message, or you're taking in someone you don't know, and everything you could hope for and you have is the trust right within your inner network that you like. Beyond that, you know you're putting yourself in a risk. You know what you're up to, there's a potential of coming to arrest us. And also have to accept that when we're when I was doing in or when I was in that space, you know, this is also, I don't know if that is optimistic, but is that's the reality of, yes, it's a there could be people coming to a restaurant.
Host 49:07
Was it strange living in that new reality? Because nothing you had ever done it prepared you for being in a situation in which you found yourself overnight, just everything overturned overnight. And was it? Was this new reality, something that you fell into and seemed natural and organic and just adapted to, okay, these are the new rules, and this is how I engage. Or were there ever moments where you you you felt a sense of surreal quality breaking in that this is really where you found yourself?
Ma Hnin 49:33
Yeah, it's, it's a really, really bizarre I always say to myself that I'm homing, outing me out, which means I'm not here, I'm not there. So I tend to be in that situation a lot, and somehow I'm very well adapted to it, and I thrive in that matter. So what you were saying earlier, you know? I'm accepting that I this is what potentially, they're going to come and get me, but also in the same time helping these people. Yeah, to be honest, all started off with, I'm doing something right? I'm helping people. And I know that helping people can be that I'm gonna get in trouble. Yeah, so and helping people, which is gonna get me in trouble? Sure, like I said, I could choose not to host these people. And the crazy thing is that, you know, hosting people is that another, another identity of mine, which is my mom and my dad, when we got to Australia, like every Friday or every Saturday, we have Burmese community coming to my parents house. My mom will cook food, and you know, the wives are playing cards, and the men's are doing the politics talk, and you know the kids are playing whatever they're playing. So I actually grew up in that environment. So during that time, now that you asking me this question, like, I was just hosting people that who they feel that they can be here, and it's crazy. There's that one end, and then there's the other end, like, Yes, I'm gonna get in trouble.
Host 51:43
That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. So I want to move next to your journey after leaving Burma and what you've been doing since. But actually, before going forward, I just want to go a little backwards and fill in that gap to have for listeners to have a fuller understanding of your life journey, which really is incredible in the meantime. So from the time that, if we could pick up, from the time that you found yourself in Australia and after leaving the refugee camp with your recent reunion with your parents, up until the transition when you head back to Burma, if you could pick off from there and talk about the career that you ended up going into, which is a whole other area to talk about.
Ma Hnin 52:22
Yeah, the gap, the gap in between of arriving to Australia and then, okay, we can start it from 2011 that's when country was slightly kind of open, but not open. I was the first family member to visit Myanmar in 2011 during that time, I had to apply for visa to go to it was very expensive. What I from, what I remember I'm like, and that was my first ever oversea trip by myself. And it was to back to Myanmar. People ask me, Why are you going back? I'm like, I just miss my grandmother place. I just wanted to go back and see as an adult, like, What is this place? Is this still exists? So first time was 2011 2013 I also went back with my mom and my sisters. That was the first time my sisters visited Myanmar, first time they ever been Wow. So that was also another kind of amazing witness to see, and also the first time my mom and I, we were in my grandmother place. So it was kind of like family reunion type. And then 2015 my third time visiting to Myanmar during thin Jan Water Festival, because I've never experienced Water Festival before. So I got my friend, who's also Burmese, she came with me and and from 2011 to 2015 I saw the huge switch in in 2011 if I want a cappuccino, I would have to go to Trader. You know, I'm still Australian. I'm Melbourne. Melbourne, you know, so and then you go to in 2015 there's like, okay, there's a whole lot of business, small business popping up, and which is really inspired me. Yeah. And another crazy part is that prior to 2015 so after 2013 visit, I went back to Melbourne. So my mom is also a chef, and she's been wanting to open a restaurant in a. Burmese restaurant in Melbourne for a longest time. And I said to her, if we're going to open a restaurant, let me go and learn the proper you know, because, especially with Australia, we need to have a proper rules and regulation that we need to follow. So let me go and do it. Keeping in mind, all my life, I don't want to be in politics, activism, nor a chef, because these are the things that what I am familiar with, unknowingly and knowingly. So I decided to study as a chef in 2015 I already finished doing my course, and when I came back and I went, I came and talked to my dad, sister, my auntie, like I would like to open a bar. Will you be interested to invest? Because, as of us Australian, we cannot put our name down on a business. We need a local partner, so yeah. Next thing you know, I went back home in first of May. I pick up a second job to get cash in hand. I left in on. I left on 25th of August, 2015 to Yangon. It took me a month to tell my parents that I'm moving back to Yangon. I was so scared to tell them like I'm going back, because they fought their life to get for us to have a better future, you know, better system and the whole thing to Australia, and I'm like, Hey, Mom and Dad, I'm just gonna go back. They were super supportive. And so I went back to Yangon to open a bar. I don't know anyone, because I didn't grew up in Yangon. I know my auntie and my I have my other one other friend who used to study in Melbourne. So that was it. I just but you know, one thing mum always teach me, taught me was, if you don't know, you just ask. So there's a lot of questioning happening during 2015 when I moved back and then, yeah, we found a place in front of Secretariat, and, of course, learning the the history of the Secretariat, and I named the bar, father's office.
Host 57:44
What's the meaning behind the name?
Ma Hnin 57:48
The meaning behind the name so, you know, BuJo Aung San he that's where his one of his office, and that's where he got assassinated. He is nation of the Father, and is this his office? So father's office? So a lot of people get it, a lot of some people don't actually come to the bar because of that meaning my current boyfriend, he's like, I never foot on that. I never went to that bar because I know the meaning behind it. Okay, so this is the time that I'm I'm still Melbourne, and I re trying to learn about my culture, learn about my food. It was a whole learning curve ball in this new place. You know, it's crazy because I'm in Myanmar and I'm in refugee camp, I'm in Melbourne, and now I'm back to the journey Myanmar transitional area and gone.
Host 59:00
Yeah, where everything was happening. It was a wild west. Everything was opening up and flying in all directions.
Ma Hnin 59:06
Yeah. And then there's a lot of like, entrepreneurs, yes, yes. That was a whole nother incredible time from 2015 to, you know, 2018 I'll say 17 even then, yeah, so that's when I'm trying to relearn a lot of things about, you know, Yangon and Myanmar, and then opening a bar, which is, again, it's very personal, because during that time it's either in terms of a bar, you either go to beer stations or you go to, like fancy cocktail bars, right?
Host 59:54
Explain what a beer station is.
Ma Hnin 59:56
For those who don't know, beer station is based most. Most of them has yamabiya Tap, which are like, 800 charts during during that time, with the exchange rate probably like 50 cents or 30 cents even. And then you just have, like, lots of tables with, like, green plastic chairs, and then with the tablecloth, is using the vinyl of the old posters. And you will have, like, some beer station will be a bit more generous, which has, like, a lot more food variety, various variety of food. Some just the, you know, tea leaves salad, Ginger salad.
Host 1:00:40
It can be quite grimy.
Ma Hnin 1:00:42
Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's everyone affordable kind of thing. But the only thing is about beer station is very men oriented. Yes, that's right, you know someone like me who has a very loud voice, who speak, who laugh very loud, who does not dress apart as a Burmese woman, right? So it's not, I don't really fit in.
Host 1:01:12
Yeah, I guess so. It sounds like you're creating a new place for a new Yangon.
Ma Hnin 1:01:18
Nah, basically, yeah, or for myself, yeah. And they become that, you know. So I wanted to create that safe space for who loves drinking beer, who loves drinking alcohol, but there were any safe space for women to be sitting at beer station.
Host 1:01:35
Without being judged, without being unsafe, yeah?
Ma Hnin 1:01:38
So that's that was like, one thing two, it's either Myanmar bar or a foreigner bar. And I was like, why are we having why are we not all going there? Because I'm both, I'm Myanmar and I'm also a foreigner. So why are we not sharing that space, but we're in Myanmar? Why does foreigner has to be there? So they that those were the two things that's cool. I was kind of, I want to give the space for women to have this, you know, like me, someone who can be loud, who's someone who can be themselves in a box.
Host 1:02:21
Yeah, yeah. So those were, that was the concept and the mentality. But how do you go to then creating that, that vibe, that physical ambiance, that reputation, to actually make it become, make, make the actual thing become what the hope is and the aspiration is in your mind.
Ma Hnin 1:02:42
Um, I Okay, starting up with father's office, so it has a lot of influence on Melbourne Trino in terms of the whole interior I created myself. So before studying a chef, I actually study furnishing technology. There you go. So all these nitty gritty learning which comes in hand? Yeah, so furnishing technology is a furniture design plus manufacturing is the course combined. Ideally, I would like to be an industrial designer, but I was too busy partying in high school, so I didn't get the mark. So I end up going to RMIT in Melbourne, studying the course, but after two years, I dropped out. So that's where I got all my furniture and building kind of nice concept, yeah, is what I have. So that comes in handy, certainly. So we build the father's office within a month. Wow. Okay, I was in there every day working with, you know, the builders. And it's crazy, because during that time, my, my Burmese was really bad, because my, I don't live at home since 18, yeah, so I only meet my mom once a month, and that's when I speak to her Burmese. So it's really, really bad. And me trying to explain to the local builder what I want, they're just like, what's going on so, but there were, there were things that could have been better, but it turned out really great. And then location wise, we were quite we were only a block down from Myanmar time we were in the corner of DBB a hour dzima Um. So actually, father's office was created by journalists, so they were our um. You know, journalists always love that, not here, not their place. They want a cheap beer, you know, they don't want to be going to the fancy, you know, foreigner bars and like, if they want to have a break from beer station, they come to my place where you could have hot dogs and burgers and fish and chips. So that was the early six months of father's office. But then right after six months, it was slowly foot traffic was going down. But then also going back to my original ideals, was to have Burmese and foreigner having in this place, I was noticing that is less Burmese. I'm like, okay, what can I do this? So going back to earlier, what I mentioned with I need to put on a Burmese menu. We didn't have a Burmese food menu, so I think about my childhood memory of my snap, my nap time, street vendor, ladies, those food were our first Burmese menu on father's office.
Host 1:06:10
Oh, great. Like, what was that?
Ma Hnin 1:06:12
It was so we've got tea leaf stuffed tea leaf tomatoes, so it's kind of like tea leaf salad, but in a tomato. So it's kind of like one bite, which is my absolute favorite. And we also had, I was also playing around with Pennyworth salad, but like with the grille prawns, so this was a little bit of fusion, kind of, I was playing around with it, but not really charging for too much, you know. And then later on, we were started doing other small so I had, like tea leaf rice with, like schnitzel, chicken schnitzel. It was also going, well, this is something that, you know, like people who were coming to father's office, they were trying something new within something they're familiar with in the menu. So that was my kind of take on and then we were having, we're doing a lot of promotion for cocktails. So that's when a lot of ladies, Burmese ladies, coming. They know that, you know, there's a promotions happening. And then I was there two years straight. I didn't have any holiday, so I was there all the time. And like I said, being a very loud voice in a bar, people recognize that. Oh, there's a woman who's drinking in a bar. She's can be loud. She can be that. So that's kind of in a way, that a lot of ladies, next thing you know, in 2000 or say, 1718, that's why, I mean, like most of them, um, customers are ladies.
Host 1:08:07
Well, interesting, yeah, so it started to also be a place where you were challenging gender norms and traditional gender identities and having setting a comfort for a new way to just go and be yourself and develop into this new Yangon. Yeah, right, that's great. So you mentioned that you became a chef and and that you studied Burmese food for a while, and Burmese cuisine just have to take a slight detour. We've had other Burmese chefs on before. And the question I always like to ask, because you get a different answer every time, and because listeners don't, outside of Myanmar, don't necessarily have a ready answer for this as to describe what what is Burmese cuisine? For someone who is unfamiliar with it, and might know Thailand and India and China and some of the neighbors, but don't know what defines Burmese cuisine? How? I'm sure this is a question you've been asked many times in Australia. How do you answer? What is Burmese cuisine?
Ma Hnin 1:08:57
Yeah, I can answer. I've been answering the same questions since I was little, and the best way that they could understand, especially in Australia, even though we there's a lot of Burmese people now, yet this still Burmese food is so little comparison, right? Like, I grew up with Vietnamese food. I eat balmy every day, so which, ideally, one day we will get there. And, you know, everybody will be talking about Burmese food. And when I'm describing Burmese food, it's like, we know China, we know India, we know Thailand. Mix it all up, but a subtle way. We just put all of this in a subtle way. And you will find it in a different restaurants has different a certain way that they will be dishing up, or a certain tribe that is closer to, if it's if you're in a China border, like in the up in the, you know, chin. Kind of way you will have a certain food that is a little bit more influence on China, you know, whereas even on like where I grew up in malamia, we have influence on Thai, you know, what we use is very, very similar to Thai cuisine. So that's how I've been describing to a lot of people, but my obvious, my absolute favorite, is curry. But I said curry without any giant spices, like India. So that's always been my how I define Burmese food.
Host 1:10:37
That's great. I always reference the salads how that's the one thing I find really unique, is the different kind of salads. And I just, I love the Burmese salads, yeah.
Ma Hnin 1:10:46
Well, see, it's a different approach, whereas I'm going towards some, some way that what people are familiar with, what they have in their life. So it's kind of like, okay, that's similar.
Host 1:10:59
The salads are the most unique to me. The salads are the thing that's that's hard for me to put a pin in what's similar to those, and that's why I like them, because they could be, they could they just they're unlike any cuisine I've had anywhere else. So that's true. Yeah. So then we're catching up to your journey and where we're at now. And just to recap, as I referenced at the start of this, this roller coaster journey. You've been to the highs and lows that also near the nation born in 88 your father being a part of the absdf and and the separation, the growing up without your parents with a grandmother, refugee camp, then going on to Australia being somewhat, somewhat a Burmese, somewhat a foreigner than the highs of coming back with the transition. Said, being a part of the new Yangon actually not just enjoying the new Yangon, but helping to co create this new Yangon as one entrepreneur among many that's rising everything up then the coup hits. It's a real low, but it's mixed with perhaps something of a sense of community and solidarity and optimism, of coming together, reliving your father's footsteps. And then we left off in your journey in March of 2021 where you take one of these zoo flights, and you don't want to go back to Australia, even though you have the privilege that many don't have, you don't want to take that privilege. And instead, you go to Thailand, and your your journey continues, and your advocacy and activism and optimism, solidarity, community, hosting people, gathering everything, creativity, all of these things are happening in all these forms, and we haven't even gotten to that yet. So tell us about where the journey has been going these last few years and what you've been doing here.
Ma Hnin 1:12:38
Okay, yeah. Wait, we only done halfway, not even halfway. So actually, we got to Thailand in April 12. The first flight that we tried to fly out was somehow, it was a fake one. So that was another crazy, intense moment before coming out of Myanmar. So the two weeks we had to stay in Sakura, resident, which were a lot of like junta, you know, associate were also family was living as well. So which was really, we were a little bit paranoid, even though we were in, you know, this fancy place that we were in, because we already left our apartment, we didn't want to go back, just in case, if there's any security concern whatsoever, let the people, whoever continue creating this place to be, have full freedom of it. And then so we arrive. Eventually, we got the proper, the legit chatterfly, and we got to Thailand to its quarantine. And then I had a friend who was like, Oh, my dad is also want to support the revolutionary people, so he gave us his apartment to stay for two months for free in Bangkok. So I mean, it's only two of us, but I end up having like six people in the house, in two bedroom apartment, because everyone is, you know, they left Myanmar because they have passport and they can afford ticket to come to Thailand. Doesn't necessarily, we don't have any other plan, yeah, yeah, you know. So, yeah, what now, right? And like, in terms of work, in terms of also, because covid revolution, revolution. So there's a whole lot of thing that, like, you know, as usual, what do you need? I have this place. Do you want to sleep on the couch? You know, I got this. For free as well. So we were sharing among and then there was a group, they came to us that there are some funding that they would want to create a space in Bangkok, because I was running a space in Yangon. So that's when we created this exile hub in in Bangkok, and that's where we were like, Okay, some of the creatives can come and live here for the two week, two months before they figure out what they're gonna do. At least it is there's a place you can stay and sleep there, and you don't have to worry about rent for the moment. And, you know, because we're all, we all love Burmese food, if you cook, it's less cheaper than purchasing, sure. So we have, you know, I know Trish has come on board. So Trish and I, we were living in that same house. So, you know, we were cooking up storms, and then we were just sharing something. We have yoga teacher who was teaching us yoga. They were a Brazilian jujitsu guy who was teaching us Muay Thai. You know, at around 6pm would gather around and, you know, update on the What's so not good with the news and back at home, and we're trying to erase that memory with many beers and singing song. So that was the the something that we were in in that particular space, and then the covid lifted. That was also crazy funny, because in Thailand, the first one, they were giving out vaccine. They were giving it to the people who has, like five chronicle disease. And then I was just like, just pretend you do, just go. So we would be there were a certain weeks, a certain hospital were giving out these vaccine, I will get everyone up. And I was like, You need to go to that register link and register. It doesn't matter. Put, put anything, you know. So that was the the it now is now. Now we think about it, it's so funny, right? But the thing is, it wasn't funny during that time, because if you don't have vaccine, you can't go to places like especially, living in Bangkok is so expensive, so some people want to move like pie or Chiang Mai, but you can't travel if you don't have a vaccine. So and on top of that, most of all my friends has Burmese passport, you know, which is, somehow, is a problem, you know, in Thailand. So that was something that, you know, like I said earlier, we are very good at resisting. We're good at, you know, finding a solution. Doesn't matter. There will be, always solutions. So, yeah, my friends were drinking so much soft drinks the night before, just to have say, just just in case, they were asking for if there's any particular disease, like high blood sugar, you know, obesity, that kind of things that we had to make up to just to get that vaccination, you know, so and then fast forward to 2022 February. That's when the, you know, the big day is coming. The I call it re traumatizing day for a lot of us, most of us and we were like, what do we do as a collective, the people who are in there, and we have a lot of artists in the house, I was connected to some of the artists, and my ex partner, he is still, he was still involved in, he wasn't with us, but in the hub, but he's still involved In a lot of helping some of the artists. So we were like, Let's put on art exhibition. And then Trish and I, we cooked for two days and we had food fundraising and exhibition. That was host. I think we end up like, Don't getting around like 80,000 baht or something like that in two days. So yeah, we were, that's when, okay, collectively, we could do something, you know, that was something, what we were trying to achieve, that even in the exile, we know that we were still supporting the revolution, being a part of it in some ways. But this is what something collectively, we can all be there. You know, we were, yes, we're showing horrible things, yet we're still in one space. You know? Talking, chit chatting over Mohinga still, you know? And that was something you could say, a new Burma was born officially, but even then, even, but like the other day, I had an interview with Danny freinster. He when He asked me, How is, the new Burma came about? You know? So new Burma hasn't just came from the coup. It was already prior, before the coup, before the covid, even, you know, father's office time, we were already a lot of us are going into this new Burma transition of like, yes, we are acknowledging and relearning our culture. I mean, especially for me, I'm learning my new, not new, but, like, traditional and the culture, but doing it in an alternative way, or a new way that we want to show it to the world, you know. And this is something that was kind of solidly done on the first and the second of February 2022.
Host 1:21:12
And since then, a new Burma has been prolific in terms of the activities you've done. And what I what I think is so cool and unique and interesting about what I see of a new the new Burma Collective is it's, at the same time very funny and fun and also serious and dark. It's a collective and a community, but it's not. It doesn't ever feel defined or rigid or or really focused on particular key people that are doing that seems amorphous in terms of who gets to, who comes and goes, and who takes part in it. The the events seem very interactive and and have a a kind of free flowing feel, but they also have feel like they have a sense of structure and thought and intention, and not just, we'll just do anything and let it happen so and I think not only do the from what I've seen of the events, I haven't actually been to a new Burma event, but from what I've seen of how they've been shown online, that's the feeling I've gotten. But even your like, your Instagram page and websites that you create, they they are so different. The modality that you're aiming at is so different in terms of how you're presenting yourself, I mean, from the colors, the design, the templates, the language, the kind of the hipness and coolness of it, but being able to strike that tone without losing the facts and the data and the the the information about what's actually happening in Myanmar, from airstrikes to, you know, the sanctions On the jet fuel to whatever other issues that you've been taking up and focusing so it's, it's been this very creative yet also very informed way. And it just strikes me now this is probably an intersection of you mentioned father's office, where it's a it's a creative becomes the kind of creative hub of foreigners and Burmese all coming together, but also a nexus of the journalists, because it's with It's nearby to all of these different major media, local media offices at the time, and so a new Burma also seems to blend this, facts, information, data, with the kind of creative, innovative, interactive way of exploring it and navigating it, which is all coming together in this amorphous community of creatives doing different things in different ways.
Ma Hnin 1:23:29
Yeah, it's a I'm very, very super proud to fill that gap. I call it a gap, because it's a huge gap that is so overlooked. Yes, which I and that's the one thing that I have to keep advocating. Even though I'm already doing it, I still need to advocate and talk about it, because, like I said, it's so overlooked. And going back to, you know, I took the exhibition. So right after Bangkok exhibition, we took it to Melbourne. So I was like, that was, I haven't gone back home for four years, yeah. And I was like, I want to go home, but I don't want to just go home, you know, because I'm still doing this so and growing up as a diaspora community in terms of creativity is there, but not like what we do. The only creativity I have seen is poetry and book reading. Those were the only two, I mean. And then there is like, you know, people going up on the stage and singing in karaoke, like most of the community event, which is still happening now everywhere in the world, with the Burmese community, what they do in a fundraising event is people go up on up on the stage and dance, and they will sing if they have a famous person. They will get them. And then, if there is a poetry reading, they will do a poetry reading. And then all the Burmese ladies selling all the Burmese food come lucky draw. Exactly, lucky draw. And this has been practicing since 1988 they haven't changed. I'm so I'm so fed up with this, and I'm gonna get into trouble with this, which I'm fine with that. Also, this is another thing, right? Yes, we're advocating in a well, but also we're looking in the gap of the creatives. But also at the same time, I can speak regarding to the diaspora community, and the way to do traditionally has been done, you know, so growing up that I've never seen these kind of cool art, you know, yes, traditional painting might be that's the more of the beyond that I might have seen. But this new generation of creativity is something I've never grew up with. So I wanted to show my community that, look, there's Burmese cool art. That is, they are as good as, yeah, what's in the world? Absolutely, absolutely, you know. I mean, I'm always proud of it. So, even better, you know, they their work are incredible. And the thing is, most of the artists we work with are Gen Z, yeah, they are under 25 you know, if you look back the covid and the coup, they never, they've never shown their work, nor they're all self taught, you know, so which I'm even more proud to be presenting this. So I took it back to Melbourne, and I show that to the community. Unfortunately, we didn't get a lot of people because there's no singing or singing along in the giant Hall at some school I was actually done in a little bit more of a partial area in a also, it was a warehouse. So this is something that Burmese people like, what's going on? Why are you doing an event in a warehouse? Right? So, but we were actually able to get Australian curators to come and curate the show. And we had a previous Australian ambassadors used to sit in Myanmar in Yangon. They came, mom and I, we cooked up the first time cooking together, we cooked up seven course Burmese dishes, and we had a hosted for 30 people in the exhibition, yeah? So that was a so it wasn't just the creativity, but also we were talking about, we were able to showcase our food and our art, but we're talking about revolution, yeah, yeah. So exactly, you know, it's a win win for the people who are coming to participate, they're able to have the food, look at the art, the creativity, and on our side, we get to tell them what's really happening in Myanmar.
Host 1:28:10
Yeah. And it sounds like it's not like one of those events that you have to do. It's one of those events you get to do where you you don't just show up, because that's what's expected of you. But there's actually something really engaging in there. And I I really also appreciate how you're talking about using art, and not just any art, but really dynamic art that hasn't been seen by youths with a vision that's had everything taken away from them but their ability to create that art. And I especially like what you're saying about trying to have a movement, because that's really what this is becoming, more than just a community or a hub, but some kind of movement of presenting this in a different way, which I think is more than needed from breaking away from those old models. I think that your the way that you what you've done with a new Burma, and trying to reach and fill that gap is really incredible. And as a one of one, you really broke the model in terms of the events you're trying to do in the community, you're trying to have, and I feel I from what we've tried to do and we've tried to go, I do feel kind of a solidarity, or kind of like cousins of we're going about it very differently, but I feel like the intention of wanting to bring this, to bring a medium in a different way, to a different space and with a different audience, to try to tell a different story from the same set of circumstances. There's, there's something, some kind of symbiosis there, yeah, and
Ma Hnin 1:29:31
that's why, like, you know, we can recognize each other even, you know, when you first reach to us. And, like, it's a, it's a small circle, you know, when it come to there are people who are inside Myanmar doing stuff, and then there is people who are out in exile, and then there's a diaspora, right? So this, this the three kind of way that which I kind of put to.
Host 1:30:00
Yeah. So looking at a new Burma and the events that you've done and where you're looking to move, tell us a bit about what's how you've had this organic journey into being what you are now. How do you understand what a new Burma is, and what directions and aspirations as going forward as this resistance to the coup just continues year after year.
Ma Hnin 1:30:25
Earlier days. Like I said, a new Burma is something that we want, things that traditionally done traditional way, but also recreate it in another innovative way, right? That's something which we still try to do that, but now that we are two years down the line, we starting to know what kind of things we're good at and what is that we can support, what is the direction we want to go. So starting off, before getting to that part, I will want to start with is we want to the gap of the creatives right, especially the support that they don't tend to get, comparison to journalism or, you know, humanitarian aid, somehow creatives are not as important. Which is, is not only in Myanmar society, but also in the NGO society as well. Which is what I am. I got angry, and why? Why is that this? People are overlooked because artists are not just artists, they're also activists. They're also political prisoners. You know, also they are in the revolution as well. You know, especially if you look at 2021 coup, is that because of the creativity that was gone and reached to the international news with the way they were creatively protesting, right? That that is something that a new especially Myanmar protests were highlighted in the newspaper. So this, this creative way of protesting, like, for example, there was, like, naked men walking down the street and like some people were getting married on the strike. You know, these are all come from, like younger generation and the new way of they want to express this the revolution, right? So, as well as if you look at most of the if you're running a campaign, or if you're if you're wanting to do a storytelling, or what's really happening on on the ground, capturing by photography or or film. You know, these are creatives, but they're also activists. So, um, but the thing is, with a new Burma, I kind of wanted to make sure that creators come first, because activism is going to come anyway, because we are a part of this journey. We are part of this revolution. So we are all it's almost like a build in identity of a activist, activism, you know, which I try to hide away from or try to not accept that I'm an activist. So this is very, very important, especially in the early days of a new Burma, it was something for us to represent younger Yeah, not. Doesn't necessarily have to be younger. Like creatives people to put it at the front, to showcase their work, and then it comes out with all these various issue that, whatever they want to highlight.
Host 1:33:55
Like which issues, for example?
Ma Hnin 1:33:58
For example, there are many issues. Like, for example, let's say there was a one of the artists, he was drawn, especially in my house. He did it earlier days. He said, Don't do revolution with big mouth, you know, which is something that is something towards the community that, especially when there was a lot of snitches out there, you know, or when they were last year, where they there's a photographer and an anthropologist, She was following cdmos in the ground, you know, they but she was doing her photography work. But the issue of it is about CDM doctors and the air strikes, right? So the the story telling is going to be there that we need to representing this creative this, this artist work. So. So that was the very, very start of what we wanted to highlight and what we wanted to give platforms. So we end up getting the first show. I think we had eight, eight artists from inside the country, in the exile, but also the diaspora. So this is another way, like, how do, how is our community can connect from inside and outside. That was another thing that the gap is also missing, yeah, and also the exile. Because, you know, artists are everywhere, especially Burmese artists, but there is no such thing as they all coming together, or how connecting, right? It's like also, for example, the one that we did in London, we have 30 artists. So again, the 30 artists that we also have from London, they were able to see, oh, there are these artworks, pretty cool. This is coming from inside of the country, right? It's kind of like sharing. But then also we use um a community. So for example, as I mentioned when we were in Australia, we use Australian curator because we want to go from community to community which or they already understand the art world. They have the mutual language, which is art, yeah, right, no. And this is, this is the another approach, when you're talking about what we're doing things differently, is that we're not advocating for academic or like a certain group, you know, we're going, we just want to go from people to people, and having to do that, the best way is going to a certain community that they already understand the language, which is, can be music, could be just the creative, or could be just art. So this having to have Australian curator, or having to have Thai curator in the topic that we are trying to do, which also leak into their community as well, which is something, I guess, the organic advertisement that which we also get, they get to bring their own community. This is the even though we're not making a lot of change, but there is still people are hearing. People are curious in the topic or the what's happening in Myanmar. So where is going to now, that is, after two years, you have seen comparison to just putting 30 artists their own work together. We are slowly starting to working on a narrative. So what is the message that we want to give to the community or people, to people, or how do we want to talk in the empathy, sympathy way on what's happening in Myanmar? It's not victimizing, you know? We're not going into, oh, there is this tragic is happening. It's not that there's the the layer on top of that is the creativity that we're giving, that sympathy, empathy, you know, the level that is art can connect. Art can show and tell the story and and most people get it, but some people don't get it, which is also okay, but the I think that is the new way, a new Burma is trying to continue, wanting to continue. So, for example, just two weeks ago, we held a exhibition at Greenhouse co working space, which we worked the topic was about political prisoners. We talked about political prisoner with seven artists in a whole new, different way. And for the people who are coming to see this show, they didn't think that it's a political prisoner. They come to an exhibition, and they learn about political prisoners. So it's the flip Interesting, yeah, so I think that's the that's a new way, like you said earlier, there's a cool thing happening. If you want to learn about it, you can learn and dive deep into it and and by doing that. You know, if you look at the other side of it, the world is burning. You know, if you there's Gaza, there's Ukraine, let this and we, we most we spend our time on social media, so so much time in there that we want to flip through the tragedy. And the sadness of all this thing we only want to because our brain can only react to the good, feel good part, right? So if you were approaching to audience, we're doing a political prisoner thing. No one's gonna come, you know, but you are doing a show that that is by AR. There's a filter that you can come and try it out. Or there's a contemporary dance that is done by who is a Burmese diaspora. So having to find, I guess we're trying to find an alternative marketing skills here, on top of the art form that you come and see. You know, especially when we were in Bangkok show, when we did a airkeys about the airstrikes in Myanmar, first of all, because of the security. But secondly, we cannot say, or we nobody will come if you say, like, oh, it's airstrike. About airstrikes in Myanmar, but at least the narrative that we came up with is, when we see the plane. How is Myanmar people when they see a plane? How do they feel? And how is the rest of the world seeing a plane. And so these kind of a narrative, which is also something you're making people think, which we don't tend to think these days anymore. What we see is on the social media, I was like, Yep, I just, you just flick through right? And with a new Burma, we're trying to make people think, find the alternative way of telling story about what's happening in Myanmar with the coolest artists.
Host 1:41:53
Do you get any pushback from the older generation of doing something very different?
Ma Hnin 1:42:00
Yes, yes, yes, in a way that only a certain very, very small number of community or a group or understand what we do really, yes, because it's new, that means people are not very good with new things. I mean, especially my mom doesn't know what I'm doing, to be honest,
Host 1:42:37
Interesting.
Ma Hnin 1:42:38
Because this is something that they've never experienced in their time.
Host 1:42:44
New times call for new innovations. It reminds me of when I was in Philadelphia last year and I went to a Burmese diaspora organized event showing documentary. And I don't remember the name of the documentary. It was a, it was Burmese produced and and it was about, it was a journalist or a cartoonist or someone who had joined the revolution and was just showing his personal journey. I was very excited to see the film. When I saw it, the film was fine, but I also had the understanding when I was watching it. Well, one thing was, there was a room of, I don't 200 people, and maybe two or three non Burmese like myself that were there and watching the film, I realized that if someone had happened upon this event and heard about it and came to see it, it'd be very hard to actually understand the film, because there was so much context that you had to know by understanding what was going on Burma. It didn't explain anything. It just put you right in the middle of this person's journey in a very personal way. And if you didn't know why he was taking the journey he was taking, it'd be almost incomprehensible. It'd be indecipherable, really, is what it would be. And when the film ended, there was like a some five minute recorded talk from some nug minister, and everyone in unison, repeated some phrase three times and then held up three fingers and felt very formulaic. And it felt, I mean, happy that the diaspora had their own community event to raise money and engage and remind themselves of the ideals of what they were doing. Have this sense of solidarity, but it also felt this sense of like, if this is all you're doing, then I don't see how you're going to get too many other people than me who's already as committed as I am, for the reasons why. And if someone did wander into this, as I said, I think it would just be very hard to understand both the film and the discussions after the film and the nature of the event. And so not to say that, and I've been to several other events like that throughout the United States. And states and different states, not to say that those events shouldn't be happening. They certainly serve their purpose. We're not saying that one is better than the other. We're saying that one is not enough, and that especially, I think, really this sense of like new times and new challenges call for new solutions and new ways of thinking, which is. He knew Burma.
Ma Hnin 1:45:01
Yeah, 100% and we need like earlier, I mentioned about how, like previously, things were done to or like things were advocate or things were, I don't know, how do I say this in the community? Things just traditionally done in a way that you're not reaching any new people.
Host 1:45:29
Yeah, exactly.
Ma Hnin 1:45:31
Which is and then, and then in the end of the the other hand, you want the help from various different community or, you know, especially like, let's even talk about Chiang Mai. You know, if I continue making events just for Burma people or like Burmese people, I would never reach to any of Thais or any of the Kyi people or any of local expat community, because that's you know, which is very important to be letting know why so many diaspora, why so many exile Burmese, are being exciting moved here is there must be a reason that. Why is the reason is something that you need to share that with the community that you are living in. And you need those allies. You need that allies for able to you know, especially like me, who adapt so many in so many different places. You need to know your neighbor. You need they need to know you. Yeah, you need to talk at their frequency too, exactly, exactly. And I think that's why we we've been hosting can stop one stop festival. We already done two years in a row, so last year and this year, and hopefully next year as well, which is, is the purpose for the community to share space. You know, we had Thai artists activists come and share the space. They come and jam the music, or they will rap, or they would, you know, be a part of the exhibitions or part of the food vendors. You know, we're sharing the the in the end of the day. We also don't want to lose our culture and and ourself just because we're living in another country, but the same time, we can share our culture with, you know, wherever we are. And, you know, like earlier, I mentioned, like, I grew up with a Vietnamese community like them. They are sharing their culture to us. That's why I get to learn that. You know, where is the same thing for us here we can. We can't just be in that bubble. That's why it's so important, why a new Burma is working with local artists, local community local community leaders, trying to be there. So then we can wider the network. We can also share our information of what's happening in Myanmar.
Host 1:48:09
That's awesome. And it just just to go back to what I was saying before. What's so cool is that you're, you're, you're at the head of this, this movement, this community, but you're not a leader in the traditional sense of being a gatekeeper and authority. Really, you're a leader in the sense of creating a platform where everyone gets to shine. Everyone gets their chance to contribute in their unique way. Everyone gets a chance to consume it in their unique way. And if there's anything that's needed in this decade and where we're going, and the way that that that we're all changing with the online culture, it's this kind of collective and communal sharing where you can use that medium to reach more about Burma beyond that bubble, as well as within that bubble, to have people be able to express themselves and talk about things and talk in ways that have not been acceptable before due to the traditional forum. So it's, it's, it's just tremendously exciting what you're doing here, as well as how it will continue to grow, and then, once the revolution is won, how what you'll do will then organically start to flow back into its place of origin and really be something to shape the new new Myanmar and Yangon at that time again.
Ma Hnin 1:49:25
Yeah, I'm very excited for that once. I mean, like you said, new new, right? And the the we do have the vision of even the revolution finished, this is still continue growing. You know, this the the platform for the creativity and the culture to be continued sharing, right? And what's for a new Burma coming up is, I'm kind of excited to share. This is we're going to have a physical space in Chiang Mai, yes. So which we. Place is something similar to what I did in Yangon, a creative space, where this time we'll have Thai and Myanmar, we actually have the next exhibition is September, which is the first time we've got six Thai artist activists and Myanmar. Myanmar artists, activists collaborating. Not only that, we are consuming more Thai artists and Myanmar artists. We're creating this exhibition and performance and food as well, where we want to reimagining the city. If we were, if there is no border. If there is, it doesn't matter if you're a Thai or if you're Myanmar, but you're in Chiang Mai, you are reimagining whatever. Sometimes some artists cannot reimagine because they are still in that being block of not reimagining that able to share these kind of story and and this is the first time we're actually putting on a show together that create a workshop and all that. So we have this physical space where the next two months, we're going to have these artists coming to collaborate and will be showcasing the work as well as we have planned to do newspaper printed newspaper version. I know that there isn't any Burmese newspaper printed version in Thailand, but when I say newspaper is not a newspaper is something, a certain topic that we want a reader to read. You know, like you said earlier, as as of as someone, a foreigner coming in, where do they start? Yes, right. So let's just not overwhelm with everything, and let's just focus on the topic. What is the one thing we want to focus on, and what is the one thing we want the reader to have? So there will be a lot of reflecting story like me we were hoping to have, you know, all the things I love, the ADA generation and the 21 generation. How does that come about? So these are the other topics that we will also have planned along with the annual festival, which is a space where we can just one day be Burmese and not worry about all the crazy things. So that's the journey of the festival that we want people to have. So yeah.
Host 1:52:40
Well, thank you so much for joining us for this conversation personal as well as the arc of country and society and how you've been involved in that.
Ma Hnin 1:52:51
I would definitely want to, I can't stress enough to like when I people say, oh, you should support this. You should support that. For me, is rather than supporting but it's the recognition for those creatives are also a part of this revolution as important as someone who are on the ground because with their keyboard, with their pen, with their digital tools, they can reach and tell a lot of stories. And, you know, they can reach and they can advocate in so many way and and I can't stress enough to not having them in the same level of the other activists that we have on the ground. So, yeah, that's that's all I just want to add.
Host 1:53:44
Great well, thank you so much for taking the time to join us.
Ma Hnin 1:53:47
Thank you.
Host 1:54:06
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