Transcript: Episode #275: The Longyi Revolution and Beyond
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Nyein Chan May 0:10
So this is not only about fighting against the military mantra. This is also about fighting the outdated societal norms. And also these old ideologies, which are discriminating us for decades, or let's say for centuries every women, almost every woman I've talked to, they told me that we have to do the revolution twice. It means that not only revolution against the military Hunter, but also against the patriarchy within the resistance groups. We are in the middle of severe armed conflict, and also with also in the middle of grave human rights violations. There, we always say that we as activists, we we, we tell ourselves that we should not act like a dictator, why we are fighting against a dictator.
Host 1:30
Thank you for taking the time to listen to today's episode. As you know, the current crisis in EMR is extremely concerning. And we appreciate that you're taking the time to stay informed. There is even value in just becoming more aware and helping to inform others. So please consider sharing this episode so that more people may learn about what is happening in the country. It's critical to ensure that this issue remains present in public discourse. But for now, let's get on to the interview itself.
Brad 3:10
And welcome back. I'm joined today by HMA, who is among other things, an intersectional, feminist fellow podcaster. And very interestingly, co founder of the German solidarity, Myanmar, which is a group who have been very supportive, very helpful on the European front in in trying to raise awareness of of the coup and the struggles of the people of Myanmar. So I'd like to thank you very much for joining us and sharing your thoughts on a myriad of topics that we're going to be discussing today. But I'd like to give you the chance to introduce yourself a little bit more completely to our audience.
Nyein Chan May 3:46
Thank you very much for having me here. My name is nature may. As you mentioned, I am intersectional feminist and podcaster of a podcast called a testing which is small black text I above the lone GS women's lone GS a Myanmar and this is the name of my podcast, and also co founder and board member of Jama solidarity Myanmar. Gemma solidarity Myanmar is a young activist organization, which was founded directly after the coup in 2021. We support the EMR democracy movement through political education, public relations and advocacy. Our organization is committed to a more decisive stance and proactive Myanmar policy on the agenda of the Federal Republic of Germany and the European Union. And also the podcasts if I am doing is about feminism and also is when we talk about feminism in Myanmar it sounds always far away, or it sounds always Oh, this is this is kind of vocabulary, which is going around only in civil society organizations or in the bubble of NGOs. That kind of the sort of gap I would like to close. And so that's why I started doing my podcast. A testing is member of a podcast network called Bama Podcast Network. And yeah, I define myself as intersectional feminism, feminist because I believe that the discrimination we face as women and also this discrimination, which marginalized groups faced, are never one dimensional, they are intersectional. So that's why I focus on studying feminism and also intersections of discrimination. So recently, I publish a long article about intersectional feminism in within the democracy movement in Myanmar.
Brad 6:18
And so I just want to focus a little bit on intersectional feminism, we'll we'll definitely come into greater detail with it. But I'm just wondering what the other component is intersectional implies that you're looking at the intersection of feminism and some other dimension. What What would your primary? I don't know what the technical term for that would be the secondary component, what intersections specifically would you focus on?
Nyein Chan May 6:46
For example, I also answer the similar question, why I was talking in the European Parliament, why we should talk about intersectionality when we talk about Myanmar, why it is important to talk about intersectionality. Because when we think about Myanmar, Myanmar is a complex Myanmar has a complex of ethnicities and also identities and also then discriminations. So when if we don't think about intersectionality, off discrimination, pattern of discrimination and also pattern of violence, then the solution finding process or let's say, attempt to find solutions would not be effective as as much as they would. So this is what what brings me to intersectionality. And second thing is, I also already mentioned about identities and also about ethnicity. So in Myanmar, you can, you can imagine that a woman or a member of marginalized groups, and also discriminated, be discriminated, because it's women, or because it's member of a marginalized group, or because it's from ethnic minorities, something like that. So, you see that such sort of pattern of discrimination intersect. So this is why this is what brought me to study intersectionality or feminism in Myanmar.
Brad 8:26
Fascinating. And I want to sort of take a step, step back, because you're speaking of that, that intersection, you're in the intersection of the German sphere and the Myanmar sphere. So I wonder if we can just sort of understand more about your personal journey. Were you born in Myanmar, or were you born in Germany?
Nyein Chan May 8:47
I was born in Myanmar, born and raised in Myanmar. I left the country shortly before the coup because I wanted to study political science and sociology here in Germany. And, and also with focus on intersectional feminism and feminist foreign policy. When I left the country, there was no feminist foreign policy in Germany, but with the time and also after the coup in Myanmar, Germany announced feminist foreign policy. So my academic focus is really on that area. Yeah, so and in the meantime, I talked about, I was born and raised in Myanmar. But I was privileged person I was born and raised in a big city. And there, you see that the problem is like, when you are a privilege, you tend to forget to check your own privileges. So this is where it it just it gave it gave me the alarm. Like you're a privileged person. You're a privileged woman, but what about the What are the women and marginalized groups? What are they experiencing in the country? And also in the meantime, you are now in Germany, you are now studying political science and also intersectional feminism. So what can you do about it? And what can you find out categorically? So this is, yeah.
Brad 10:20
So this is interesting you, you're saying that there was no feminist foreign policy when you arrived in Germany? So you've been able to see, it seems the birth of a field right in front of you in and it seems in response to a very acute need. Do you? Did you have a hand in that? Or you're aware of how it came to be that the Germans looked at the situation and said, well, actually, you know, what, we have a need for feminist foreign policy. Let's do something about it. Let's actually make this these happen, because that's a relatively fast turnaround.
Nyein Chan May 11:02
Yeah. It was also coincidence that say, the year so shortly before Germany announced is feminist foreign policy. Two years ago, Sweden announced cancellation of feminist foreign policy. So, for me, as a person who is studying feminist foreign policy, it was very interesting to see the dynamics shifted. But in the meantime, in Germany, it is also it is also interesting to see that the coalition agreement of Germany's ruling parties, Germany has three ruling parties, they have FDP, they have the greens, and they have SPD. So in their agreement, they have they have everything in German, right? And then only at that, that, that area, feminist foreign policy was in English was written in English. So it was like for me, okay, why? So as Germany announced feminist foreign policy, and then also a feminist development policy, of course, the backdrop of backslash of backslash against it started from their house, it means that for Germany is of course, then is Foreign Office and so on. But the focus of feminist foreign policy is then here about human security. And also, yeah, you already mentioned that I had the chance to experience the birth of feminist foreign policy in Germany. I was, I actually was also in the initial dialogues with the Germans, German foreign minister, and when she wants to collect when she wanted to collect voices around the globe, and she wanted to tell us which kind of foreign policy we can imagine what Germany could do. So yeah, it was also very interesting that, and also Germany had the chance to learn what Sweden has done, and what Germany could do better, but then later with the war in Ukraine, with Russian aggression in Ukraine, and also now, and then also Gingy and Assadi movement in Iran, and also now with the war in Gaza, Germany's feminist foreign policy was and also is really, really harshly criticized.
Brad 13:46
Yeah. Fair enough, as it's just fascinating to see. And so let's then talk about the other side of that is what is this in response to so the thing about the conflict in Myanmar is that we we tend to talk about it in very simple strategic terms, military terms, even in terms of you know, resources, money, food, things like this. And you are saying what you have said in previous discussions that we've had, that there is this almost unspoken element of this conflict, where women and other marginalized groups are still very much fighting, even within the revolutionary movement, which is, by and large, quite countercultural, quite progressive, very dominated by by young people have been very influenced by western ideals. Women and other marginalized groups are still very much fighting to gain equal footing with the with their peers. And let's talk about that a little bit. So I want to start with women's roles, as you see it in In the revolution, do you feel that the women are simply not being given the opportunities to take on the roles that they want to take on and take on the roles that they could be taking on and contributing with? Is there still this legacy of assuming that women are less capable?
Nyein Chan May 15:17
I have to say very sadly, yes, this legacy is still existing. I be. I mentioned the article I wrote about intersectional feminism in Myanmar's democracy movement. There, I had the chance to talk with you talk with the talk with women at the front and also with an ardent marginalized groups who are at the front and also who are working on the ground. And also in the meantime, who are some are than underground activist. They mentioned the point that how they start this, how they serve, joining the democracy movement, it is it starts with simple spark, it is the spark of not accepting this unjust coup by the military junta, there is is this very clear. So they told me, We joined this movement, because we can't we can't tolerate this and just act. And then later, they find out that, okay, so this is not only about fighting against the military junta, this is also about fighting the outdated societal norms, and also these old ideologies, which are discriminating us for decades, or let's say, for centuries. So, this shift was amazing for me, because I had this hypothesis. I always believe that when I see our lungi our flag movement in March 2021, I had strong, strong hypothesis that this could be this is not only about fighting against the military Hunter, but also fighting the fighting against patriarchy, which is entrenched in the Burmese society. So that's why I talk I started talking with all the comrades and also all the women and marginalized groups on the ground. So this they said, Yes, we realize that, okay, this This cannot continue this kind of legacy, but women are second sex of the society, they are not capable. So every women F, almost every woman I've talked to, they told me that women we women, we have to, we have to do the revolution twice, it means that not only revolution against the military Hunter, but also against the patriarchy within the resistant groups. So this kind of this is the first thing and the second part is I have talked about this. Our lungi our flag. I've talked with the persons who have who has led this, this campaign who has led this movement, and for me is always clear that if we as women of Myanmar women in Myanmar, if we have if we fight against the patriarchy, if we fight against the military dictatorship, we will have our own flag. And this flag is our logy. And this just resonates with the with the women who led this movement. And yeah, we also talked about it. Yeah, not only about I think you have already read about it so many times. But again, loan G's are women garments, were instrumentalized by the military Hunter, by patriarchy, or by patriarchy of men and women as discriminatory object for centuries. So this is this is very revolutionary approach for me.
Brad 19:29
And I want to I want to talk about this a little bit because this is something that that drew me in. And I think it's one of those beautiful things about the revolution, particularly about the revolution as it existed in 2021. Because there was so many things that people were doing to protest, which offered not only a push back against the military, but also was trying to make a serious inroads into bringing about systemic social change. And to us on the outside, it was offering this fascinating insight into Myanmar culture and history. And the lone geode, or more specifically, the Tamim was, as you say, instrumentalized. But it came in, in this variety of forms. You know, we saw the military putting, or cutting down wires that had to remain slung across them, because they were scared to physically proceed along the road, for fear that they would walk underneath the domain, and they would lose their opponent. And this is something that that from the western perspective seems seems very strange. It seems like, well, it's a superstition. But why would you take a superstition so seriously, that you, as a soldier with a gun, are afraid of a piece of fabric, but this runs, this runs very deep. So I wonder what insight you can give us into into what was happening with the timing. The timing can't that the barricades with women's clothes, and just generally the backlash to Gen Z draping themselves in tomatoes as an act of defiance against these, these superstitions? What light can you shed on this phenomenon?
Nyein Chan May 21:23
I shared the story you just mentioned to the German foreign minister, and she found the story fascinating. But firstly, the thing is, then I have to tell the story very, very long, longer than like a minute, because you just you summarize the story very beautiful way in a minute. But I have to tell firstly, loan Tommy was instrumentalized as discriminatory object in the society in Myanmar, and secondly, Burmese military Hunter and his soldiers, they have this superstitious belief within. So this is, you know, the so long story I have to tell her and then later to the point, yes, you can see the soldiers they cutting, they were cutting wire, and then they they went around the streets because they didn't want to go through. They didn't want to go through the go through under Logies. And so on the go through and automate and so on. So we have like discussions among our feminist friends. So where does it come from? Or where what is that? So the thing is, the first thing is we have like some of some of the some of my friends believe that this is what the military Hunter wants to wants the society to believe that tomatoes are disgrace, tomatoes are just just unclean and dirty, and also very, you know, disgraceful object in this society. This is what they wanted to what they wanted the society to believe. So this is some of this is what my some of my friends say. Other friends believe that. No, this is also what the military content itself believe that women are just Second Sex and they are not capable. And they are just, you know, service provider of the man who were warriors in the history and who fought wars briefly, something like that. So these are these are our our discussions and also our our findings, let's say but not debating about where it comes from, but we can focus, what does it in what is the impact what is the impact of such kind of myth or such kind of cultural brainwashing? Because I was I told you I was born in West born and raised in Jamar in big city, but in the meantime, our household had a father who doesn't who didn't want lungi in his eyesight. It means in front of the house. We have to we have to hang our lounges. We have to hangs our tummies in the backyard of the house, which leads of course, to hygiene problem and something like that. So this is very practical part. And the second part is the second part is that you Tommy, Tommy is also just a piece of textile. This is what you you already mentioned what the Westons would see. But I also did some research about writing about domains, apart from some some Academy articles, analyzing instrument instrumentalisation on domains. Otherwise there are so, so few in depth article or writings about Tommy being instrumentalized. So, I also found that, for example, some article talking about how beautiful the tomatoes are, how different and beautiful the patterns are, I mean, yeah, behind that, behind that patterns, we have also patterns of discrimination, we find we faced we are facing patterns of different patterns of this discrimination as different patterns of domains.
Brad 25:59
Absolutely, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, it wasn't the case that according to legend, Kenan oneota died, because the women through their domain onto an effigy of him. And as a consequence of that, he lost his poem, and he was gored to death by a knot in the form of a water buffalo. something along these lines.
Nyein Chan May 26:23
Yeah, it was also is, again, the myth and also the stories are really, really different. And other story is, I think you would remember two brothers, I think, yeah, we gotta. So one of them was taught in the Old City of in the old city of Milan area, I think, and he was caught by trumaine. And always, even though to me of a mother of a newborn child, so yeah, you can see that such kind of story and also MIT, which was targeted to women are entrenched in our culture, in our in our thinking.
Brad 27:12
And it's, you bring up the military's sexism. And the it's, it's a thing that I circle back to frequently and I've many times I've characterized the military as a cult. You know, different people either agree or disagree with that as they as they see fit. But one of the reasons that I characterize the military as a cult is because of their entrenched sexism, the, the, there's no real other way to put it the commodification of women within the military, as either agents of, of rank, a way by which you can associate yourself with a higher ranked man by marrying his daughter marrying his sister or something along these lines, or alternatively, as servants that can basically be rented out to higher ranking officers, or alternatively, simply as the the mothers of the next generation of soldiers, leading to this much reviled tradition of raffling off the wives of, of dead soldiers to make sure that they stay reproductive, and also within the military as a as an entity. It's it's almost cartoonish, how the women are treated in the military. But this just goes into this long standing history of of the way that women have been seen have been viewed and have been commodified for the purposes of powerful organizations and, and men. So it seems that there would be a very strong desire on the part of the revolution to distance themselves very pointedly from this type of denigration of women, relegation of women to secondary roles, these views that women are less worthy, it seems that if nothing else, for political and social reasons, that is a form of revolution. And talking to you it sounds like that element of the revolution is not really succeeding.
Nyein Chan May 29:21
I have so what do you what do you have mentioned has two parts so the first part is about military being you define military as Burmese military as a cold? I agree with you. And also, you mentioned like through you mentioned three options, three points. And and also who is married and who is very interesting, because in this so called written history, or let's say I wouldn't say history, but these stories of Myanmar ancient times so you also you can also see that Which worrier married, whose daughter or the king's daughter, or something like that, or, more interestingly, is that they trade daughters, sisters, and even sometimes wives for peace, or for trade agreement or something like that. So you can see that these kinds of stories, women's as just as sex objects, or women, just women, just as servants. The women were treated just as servants. So, you see, these are entrenched, already sent for centuries. This very clear. And the second part is, yeah, you mentioned three points. So I would like to add another point is misusing mother instinct, because wife of men online Did you, she wrote I think, was love a long time ago, but she's still doing it is talking like that she is mother of all the hunter soldiers in the country. And she's talking about ah, mother is talking to you guys and blah, blah, blah. So, this is like using abusing mother instinct. So, this is the fourth point I would like to add. Yes, the point you mentioned the revolution and also Yeah, we I already mentioned that women or marginalized group who joined the resistance movement, they have this goal for to fight against the military Hunter and also to fight against the patriarchy. But in the meantime, we this is also very, very, this is this has to be treated very carefully, because we are in the middle of severe armed conflict. And also with also in the middle of grave human rights violations. There, we always say that we as activists, we we, we tell ourselves that we should not act like a dictator, why we are fighting against a dictator. This is very, very important. Because I already mentioned that women has to women have to do revolution toys, it means that where did it come from? Where does it come from? So the one part is women who went to be at the front, they have to I talk with them, and they told me, they have to prove that they are strong enough to go into battlefield or they are strong enough that the other male come rate could not think that these women or members of marginalized groups are a burden for them. So you can see that women who, who joined the resistance movement against their parents or against their society, against their community, but then they are not welcome as much as their male colleagues are welcomed. So this is kind of the inequality. But there is an equality, there is an equal point where women and men or comrades were treated, it is about penalty is about receiving penalty, then they are they are treated equally. So you can see that what gives me a thought is to prove the man that I am not a burden, we are not a burden for that, or promising that promising then that we will not be a burden in this battle. So this is for me. Still. Yeah, this is where I thought we have a lot. We still have a lot to do. I mean, we didn't we didn't set our expedition to hide. But in the meantime, we are really happy that the progress is there is there is some progress, but in the meantime, there are still so many things to but
Brad 34:21
so you would agree then that compared with Myanmar society as it existed in 2019 2020, the current attitudes, the prevalent culture within the pro democracy, elements of society, you would say on the whole has improved from four years ago.
Nyein Chan May 34:44
I would say among young generation, yes. But there are still very, very still very low progress among older generation or our former generations. I wouldn't blame them because Um, I mean, where was the where were the opportunities to learn? Or let's say unlearn patriarchy. So that's why we have been talking about talking to unlearn, patriarchy and learn these cultural societal norms which are outdated. Yeah. But among our young generation we have we see progress. But still, as I mentioned before, so we still have to prove that we are capable, we still have to prove that we can also, you know, I don't say as strong as men, it is about physical condition, and so on. I don't say that. But I mean, that the contribution of women and marginalized group is the same as what our what our men colleagues can do and can contribute. Absolutely.
Brad 35:54
And more so than just the discrimination that we've we've just spoken about. I understand that even within the revolution, there also exists sexual harassment. Is this a prevalent issue?
Nyein Chan May 36:11
You I'm sorry. Recently, in April, era, Woody had publish an article about mistreatment of women prisoners, prisoners, by some PDFs, so on. I think this is seeing such kind of articles published. This, for me is a progress because some people will say that it would, it would damage the image of the revolution, or some people will say that we should fight together against the military. Firstly, we should fight against the common enemy, firstly, and later, we can talk about gender equality, and so on, or we can talk about women and so on. In my point of view, the revolution or the resistance movement, also needs manpower, human resources, let's say. So it means that we women in Myanmar, we have more than half our population. So everybody, if the revolution or if the revolutionary forces say, Everybody must join the fight, everybody should join the fight, then, but later, when they discriminate women, as like the military Hunter does, or when they ignore the sexual harassment, sexual harassment cases, which is happening on the ground, in the battle fee, or in refugee camps and so on, then it is no different than from the military Hunter. And it can also you can, it can also, like it can also bar, the women and also marginalized group from from joining the resistance movement more and more. Yeah.
Brad 38:11
Let's listen to about the prisoners as well, because the the plight of prisoners is something that's a little bit difficult to understand, because naturally, they're not being given the opportunity to come and speak for themselves. That's, that's in the nature of of imprisonment. We only really know from occasionally lawyers, if if someone is lucky enough to have legal representation, or from the people who have been fortunate enough to be released, and then they are able to give accounts. So we don't, I think, have the complete picture of what's happening with with the political prisoners, of which there are still 1000s and 1000s and 1000s. But what can we know about the plight of female prisoners, or of LGBT prisoners? are they facing sort of particular suffering, particularly because they are in the hands not of the pro democracy, more liberal, Western minded people, but rather, they're in the hands of the much more conservative and much more aggressive military and military controlled? Police? Do we know what's happening with them?
Nyein Chan May 39:23
Yes, I heard a lot of stories. And also the the woman political prisoners and LGBT iq plus political prisoners who were released and they share their stories. And also they shared the stories of their soulmate. The stories are really really I have to say that these are really you know, I don't say I don't want to say to store being but this is these are the inhumane stories how they were three Did in prisons, how they were treated in interrogation center. And this is this also has effect because military Hunter is sending a message via such kind of torture and inhumane treatment in within prisons and interrogation centers that women and marginalized groups LGBT iq plus this is not your place, and if you get involved in this political, this political movement and this political thing and you will get this. So, this is like Sunday, you know, this is like sending a signal to the, to the, to the population. So, this is very first thing. Second thing is, we know what is happening, I don't say we know everyday what is happening behind the wall of prisons, but we know the stories and what they are suffering through. But in the meantime, we see not only the stories of sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual assault by women, prison guards, and also married male prison guards, and then also by police, and and also, which kind of swear words they use and so on. You can only imagine that what women and LGBT iq plus have to go through why they are why they are detained in police interrogation centers. So the thing is like the mullet I already told about that Demetri Hunter wanted to send a message. But in the meantime, it is also about they know that they can get away with that they torture people, they humiliate people, and they treated these human as brutal as the most brutal way as they can. So, but they know that the military junta knows that they can get away with that. So that's why we are trying to we as activists, who are living outside of the country, together with activists who are inside the country, we are trying to we are trying to collect these stories and these information. And we are trying to say the world that this is happening, because the the voices of women, political prisoners, and LGBT iq plus political prisoners are still at heart, because they are not voiceless. This is what I what I always say, they are not voiceless, they have their voices, they tried to send their messages through the, through their, through their attorneys, through their families, and so on. But people, sometimes they overheard these voices. And this is kind of what I am doing, to present their voices and to present their voices to be heard. And another thing is that seeking for drastic is more expensive, sometimes more expensive than then other things because Okay, the women and LGBT iq plus political prisoners, when they are released, they they don't dare to share their stories, they don't share to talk what they have, what they what they have been going through in the prisons or in interrogation centers, because they have they are afraid of being stigmatized by the society by the community. So it is for us also to it is for us important to see that. What is the root cause of this happening? It is like for me, it's a labyrinth. Because Okay, the society the problem the society or the community has this problem. And also then the people who suffer through they aren't they don't dare to speak. So this is like kind of labyrinth. This is like a never ending story. And the last thing I wanted to say is yes, of course. When I talk about women, political prisoners and LGBT iq plus political prisoner in Myanmar, I always talk about not only their suffering, not only their torture, and not only they are treated, they are mistreated brutally. But they have the resilience. This is very important because every women political prisoner, I have talked to they say they don't want to be seen as victim. They wanted to be seen as an active part of the resistance movement, who is who are still trying to get involved from whatever role they they have it they want to contribute, they still want to contribute this democracy movement and this is very strong. And this must be seen by the international community. Because, yeah, when we talk about democracy movement in Myanmar, the international community sees that, okay, this is armed conflict, this there are some, there are political groups, their full actors is done. But the women's and marginalized groups and LGBT IQ A plus their involvement, and their participation was always overlooked, also by the international community, and this should stop.
Brad 45:35
Absolutely. And so the the follow up question, then I Googled quite a few that come out of this. Because you're sitting in this fascinating nexus between the Myanmar situation the German, sort of audience, if you will. So you're saying the message that you want to spread to the outside world, is that this is going on that this is deeper than just an armed conflict, this is deeper than just a political struggle. But what specifically do you want to tell them about how the women's rights and LGBT rights have been evolving? Is the message that you're trying to spread, that there has been progress and that people are pushing for progress on social fronts? Or is the message that you're trying to spread, that sufficient progress is not being made, and that there are still significant struggles with discrimination and harassment and, and more assistance and more focus is needed to help drive these types of social improvements? What's the focus of your communication?
Nyein Chan May 46:40
The very first focus of communication is to give the audience let's say, for us, Dan, the main targeted audiences than here in Germany, and also in the in European Union. The is the clear target or clear focus of the democracy movement? What we want, you know, sometimes it's just like, very, very, it's sometimes it's very blurry. It's really general, when we talk about, okay, we want federal democracy, but how, and why. So this is, I always say that strategic communication plus clear messaging, because not everybody has, has or had time to Google Yammer or what is happening in Yammer. I mean, they don't have time to reach the more than seven decades stories what what was happening in Yammer or what is happening in Yammer. So this is very first thing, clear messaging. The second thing is for me as an intersectional, feminist, it is important that to point out, especially like country, like country, Germany, like country like Germany, they also should know that they have feminist foreign policy. So what feminist foreign policy could do more for women and marginalized groups in Myanmar, because Germany has written on its flag, feminist foreign policy, and considering human security, considering women's and marginalized group considering their, their participation, and also prevention, and some, and so on, so on. So if Germany, a country, like Germany sees that than for me is, as a person, as an advocacy person, it's important to point out that, yes, in Yammer, this kind of not only the political struggle, but also the social struggle to tackle down this old ideologies and to form a new society. It is existing, what could Germany do? What could Germany support this person, these people? So yeah, this is, this is the second kind of messaging. And the third thing is like, we always talk about than, yeah. This is also important when people talk about Myanmar and also democracy movement. People always say an or international community always sees that, okay. We have like, this amount of money we just donated to the UN is done. And we always say that supporting Myanmar is not only about giving money, we don't want Yes, of course we have the areas we have, we have the biggest humanitarian crisis in the region. But in the meantime, supporting Myanmar has to be with political will. So these are three kinds of messages. I always deliver.
Brad 49:45
I think that's, that's quite robust. But I do want to look a little bit more deeply at it. Because this is a this is a really tricky thing. And this is something that comes about all the time. When you look at a situation and you say wow, that situation is real. The Bad, there are people who are trying to do the right thing. There are people who are trying to make improvements. And I want to help and I want to contribute, and I want to do something significant to help this happen. But then the question is What? What can one do? If we were talking in purely military strategic terms? Well, then it's it's relatively straightforward. We can say, well, you know, here are guns here are bullets, all that sort of stuff, we understand how to do that. But this is a much, much, much more complicated thing. This is a social change. This is, you know, if you if you will, it's more of a conflict within the collective mind of society, which is much harder to fight. Are there any specific tangible things, especially now during the conflict during the revolution, that people on the outside can do to help support the progress of women, or ethnic minorities or sexual minorities or any other marginalized groups like what can be done in such a tumultuous time?
Nyein Chan May 51:05
I only say that the international support for Myanmar should have intersectional approach, because this is where intersectionality came, again, in our in our talks. Because we talk about Yeah, you know, that the international support was there, like since 2010, supporting the NGO or supporting civil society groups, and so on. But now it's time to rethink how to support Myanmar more effectively, because the donor countries, they tend to stick in their own old strategy or all approaches, but the wall has changed, I mean, and also, the dynamic power dynamics within the within Yammer has also changed. And in the meantime, the collective leadership, or let's say, that the attempt of young generation to defy collective leadership has also shifted. So that's why it is the intersectional approach of supporting Myanmar is needed. And in the meantime, the tangible support for example, if someone asks me, What can we do for Myanmar, I always say firstly, is to support the civil society organizations and groups, and also independent media and also pro democracy organizations. This is this is very, very fundamental thing which international community could do, because weapons or whatsoever, leader, a leader weapon whatsoever, this is what we cannot imagine, this is far beyond our imagination. I mean, I am not I'm not really daydreaming that people can also have still have hope that we could get some kind of such kind of support. But I don't I don't have, I don't have that kind of optimism because Myanmar's revolution is a self help to revolution. And then what can international community could do effectively is supporting the civil society, civil society organizations, because they are the voices of the people from the grassroots from the ground, and they can amplify the voices, and these other societies can also act like corrector of the international support. So this is like, you know, this is this is in the interdependent process.
Brad 53:52
Absolutely. And I think there's that sort of beautiful element of if you are supporting the local groups, then you're not just supporting the change that those groups want to accomplish, you're actually empowering the people who are already from that society engaged in that society to bring about change themselves, instead of trying to step over them and and do the job yourself, but then typically leave without without establishing some sort of sustainable long term plan. So yeah, I think I think I really appreciate the direction that you that you take that and the thought that goes into the recommendations that that you're making. But the other question then is on the German side of the European side, how much interest Do you find that there is in this? I mean, the fact that Germany has has now developed feminist foreign policies is suddenly a very big step. But as you point out, there have been a lot of things going on around the world, not just the Myanmar crisis, which would have contributed to this. I Are you finding that you're getting good traction on the German side that people are interested in this that people see the value of talking about and trying to promote feminism within the Myanmar revolutionary context? Or are you having difficulty engaging policymakers, government NGOs, to to actually understand the significance of this
Nyein Chan May 55:25
to promote feminism, or women rights within Myanmar, or within the democracy movement, it is, I think, we should see this, we should start this point with ourselves. Because, I mean, when we when people in Myanmar, or when people in resistance movement, if they can't change their mindset, or if they cannot change ways of way of thinking than we cannot have, we cannot expect that people from outside or international community from outside could and power that process to this very first day. And the second thing is, I am in touch with the feminist with fellow feminists around the world. And I always present voices of women and marginalized groups in Myanmar, here in Germany, and also in the European Union. And I encourage the decision makers to get in touch more and more with groups on the ground, and to listen what they need, and also to think about the support they would like to give to Myanmar. So this is the step I take. And the second step is, of course, I, we have to we also have to advocate ourselves. I mean, our set means like, within our revolution, revolutionary forces, you know, so sexual harassment or sexual assault, when this case happens, it is not, it won't help, it appears that it would help the revolution. But believe me, it won't help because it is not sustainable way of solving conflict. And also, in the meantime, it is just, you know, it's just hiding these things behind the curtain, it is it will it will last also just very, very shortly and then later, when it comes up, then you will get more and more criticism and so on. So and also it is an act of responsibility. If we want to build a democratic country, if we want to build a country with federal democracy, we have to learn. We have to unlearn patriarchy, but we have to learn responsibility and accountability. Because I think this is also where we this is also what I have been talking with our decision makers here in Germany and and also in the European Union, because they always see that yeah, man amid this armed conflict. Where is accountability? Where's responsibility? So this is where it came, it came in, you know, and the last thing is, Germany's feminist foreign policy states that not only it is not a binary approach, it is about women and marginalized group. So I try to deliver messages from Myanmar. And then I approach so my approach is very clear. Germany is the very generous donor of humanitarian assistance. So when Germany you know, when Germany think about humanitarian assistance for Myanmar, they need to think about what they have written in the they are forming feminist foreign policy, and with that focus, how they could empower women and marginalized groups in Yammer and to strengthen to strengthen their resilience and in the meantime, strengthen the resilience and also empowering women and marginalized group in Myanmar. It means that they Germany is contributing very, very primal step of building democracy in Myanmar.
Brad 59:25
Excellent, there wasn't there was a lot there. But no, but but but it kind of shows like the layers of thought that go into it, it shows the different sort of pieces of the puzzle trying to work together cohesively. But to take a take a slight detour from from the policymakers and the high level talks. Let's talk a little bit about the exhibition that recently happened in Brussels. This is a very different way of trying to get the message out of trying To raise awareness of the not just raise awareness of what's going on in Myanmar, but to raise consciousness of these issues in general, I think so can you can you tell us a little bit about the exhibition? And what was its its sort of overall purpose and theme, and how successful do you feel? It was?
Nyein Chan May 1:00:19
Yes, the the event or the exhibition was quite successful. We had the exhibition just for a very short period. It was from 22, I think 24th. March? Correct. It should, it could be a bit, rotate. But it was very short, it was for a week exhibition. But the people who came in to the exhibition, I talked with them as a co curator, and they told me, the very first reaction was, Oh, we didn't know these things are happening in Myanmar. So then it's so I always say so first checklist, first on the checklist is Myanmar back on the agenda, so or in the meantime, agenda of daily thinking of the people around the world. So because you already mentioned that now is everywhere conflict, and people are overwhelmed by conflicts around the world, but in the meantime, why they should they still think about Myanmar. So you know, this is this is the this was also one of the one of the messages we wanted to deliver via the exhibition. But in the meantime, the other parallel message we wanted to deliver was to focus on women or marginalized groups and Myanmar. So when we see the when you see the the artworks from the exhibition, these are works, specifically focusing on women and their daily lives, and also their survival. And in the meantime, they risk resilience. I know that word is very fashionable, but I have to use that word, as many as I can. Because you can see that we had, because when we when we, when we talk about the exhibition, when we discuss about the concept of the exhibition, the very first thing is we don't women and marginalized groups in Myanmar, they don't want to be seen as Victor, this is very important message. And second thing is, yes, they are in the biggest humanitarian crisis in Southeast Asia, but they still have this courage to continue their life, they still have the women and marginalized groups. In Myanmar, they have discouraged to face these challenges, social challenges, political challenges, or deadly challenges, daily life, but they still survive, they are trying to survive, this is the message we ascend we want to center center sent to the wall. So is what you had was also successful, because I have talked with after the exhibition, I've talked with some decision makers in the European Union. And they told me that this is this, the exhibition was an eye opener, because as I mentioned before, the voices of women and LGBT iq plus or marginalized groups were and heard, and are overlooked. So that's why they were like, Oh, it was an eye opener, we didn't knew that. These things are happening, or we. And we also had like our poor, for example, displaying faces of women, political prisoners. And this this just awake, the awareness of the of the audience. Were at the exhibition. So it was quite successful. These were the two messages we wanted to deliver. And I would say these two messages. Well, were received.
Brad 1:04:07
Because you you mentioned that there was that the exhibit? If I remember correctly, where you have to walk through the tunnel of timing? Yes, I think, yeah. And I just, I don't know something about the way that it links back to what we were discussing before, with, with the timing being weaponized by the women in the in the revolution to stop the military, but And you mentioned that even Westerners, people who are completely divorced from Myanmar culture, who've probably never actually seen a tomato before in their lives, to be honest, you say are hesitant to walk underneath them?
Nyein Chan May 1:04:51
Yes, that's true. Because the the part of the art installation was the song mine the warning, the warning says it is not literally. But I, I can cite it, it means that everyone, so be aware of this tunnel, everybody who goes through especially male person going through this tunnel would have lost his poem, and the artist will not be held accountable. So that warning just hits heart to somebody, some people, because I saw that I was sitting in the gallery, and I saw the some young European audience, they just read the sign. And they thought, really? Because we also we also translated the word poem, what does it mean? And so on? So they were like, really? It it affects like that. And also, sometimes they joke, they already joke that Oh, did you did you recognize something changed or something like that. So this is where it hits me. Because this is just a warning. And also this is just a this is an art, art installation with this very strong message. But in the meantime, only via only through this simple standards. One one people rethink about it. So you can imagine that we as Myanmar society, we have this kind of brainwash ideas for decades. So we could you could imagine that such kind of brainwashing how they are functioning and how they are living inside our minds and our thinking, yeah.
Brad 1:06:53
But it's just so it's so strange to think it because this is the concept of porn is a concept that was completely new to these people. They've never even heard of porn before they came to the exhibition. So the concept of losing it should mean nothing to them. And yet, and I just, I don't know what this says, about us as as a species, but it just feels, I don't know, it feels unsettling that that a person would react to this threat so readily, despite the fact that that you're basically saying, well, they'll they'll, they're running the risk of losing a thing that they've never even heard of before, by by walking on the clothing. And yet, it gives people It gives people pause. So I don't know what the lesson is.
Nyein Chan May 1:07:56
I think this is Ben. I mean, we don't want that very broad discussion. But in the meantime, which gives me a thought of masculinity. And also about thinking that or I would lose my aura, I would lose my masculinity. So this is kind of, I mean, masculine, the concept of masculinity is, it might be slightly different. But the original one is always to say, you know, I'm a male, I am a man and I have to be masculine. And masculinity means this and that. This is the social construct, what society I mean, so this is like, oh, oh, my God, if I go through this tunnel, I will lose my masculinity. No, I won't do that. So this is kind of what you know, this kind of masculinity thought did to people around the world, no matter which culture they come from.
Brad 1:09:03
I think it's a fascinating takeaway, the universality of, of our of our connection to this concept of masculinity, it's it's not something you think about or it's not something that I very often think about. But yeah, it's true, it reminds me of a friend of mine who was talking and he came from kitchen. And he said that he he claimed of a you know, obviously I can't speak to the truth of this, but he claimed he saw a man with tribal tattoos on his arms. And these tight like the system series of dots and saying that the tattoos provide protective effect, and that he saw this man being assaulted by by an entire group of assailants and he was able to to fight all of them off without becoming injured because of these tattoos, but then he told me that But in order for the tattoos to work, the man has to not touch or come into contact with certain things that are seen as inherently feminine. And I can't remember what they were. But I remember specifically he said, a mop, you're not allowed to touch a mop, because that's a that's an inherently feminine cleaning item. And it is fascinating because it wasn't the same concept as the Bomar concept of Poland. It didn't work in the same way. You know, these were different tattoos and all that. And yet the fundamental element that coming into physical contact with anything that is viewed as an extension of womanhood is inherently corrosive to your manhood.
Brad 1:10:45
Yeah, it's it's perverse and it goes for the you mentioned the tummy and have to be dried behind the house, and laundry, and you know, men's Persaud right in the front, but then I found out that you can't wash them together. It's not that you have to dry them separately, you have to wash them together.
Nyein Chan May 1:11:01
Yeah.
Brad 1:11:02
And so it feels very unusual. But, you know, I have to be honest, like we seen this, there's a famous documentary, in in the West called, we were neighbors, which follows a couple of of Bosnian Muslim families during the Bosnian war. And it's a village that is half Bosnian half creation, and it follows these families until, you know, they go from a relatively peaceful, happy existence being neighbors and being friends with each other, to the relationships between the two communities deteriorating, and ultimately the Muslims have to escape. And the creations come and they destroy all of their homes. But it struck me this was in the 90s. And there was a scene towards the beginning where the man is being asked by his wife to to help her wash some dishes. And he's having this big, he's feeling shame, that he's on camera washing dishes, and that as a man, this is something that like, How could my wife asked me to do something so debasing and so low? And and she's trying to argue back and say, Well, no, like, you know, this is your chance, like, show off how modern and developed our country is and, and, and, you know, show off like the, you know, how helpful men are in our nation. And he's clearly like, incredibly uncomfortable, and I'm thinking this was the night I was alive during this time. And I come from a nearby country as well I'm like, Jesus, this is terrible. Things can move quickly.
Nyein Chan May 1:12:43
Yeah, yes, because you just mentioned the points more than in developed, because I mentioned the points there, there is some progress there there are some progress within the among young generation when we talk about gender equality, when we talk about women's women's rights and so on, but the indicator or the criteria we use or not we use the criteria which were used or are for example, buying a sanitary napkin or you you help a woman or a person washing dishes or you just you use you know, every year on on the day off on International Women's Day, you showed up on social media with us to me on your head or something you put tomato on your head or something, but it should be more than that, you know, this is like I feel like this is kind of pink washing Okay, the symbols are very important and messages are very important, but in the meantime, if we if we are not successful to unlearn patriarchy, which is within our within our body, which is within our thoughts, then it is not it is just it is not more than pink washing, you know, you say that okay and then I bought somebody sanitary napkin or I have understanding how women would have pain, why they have their periods, especially in the jungle at the front and so on. But it is not all about feminism or what intersectional feminism would count it is more than that. So, this is also which we have to digest this is kind of knowledge is which we have to digest within our generation.
Brad 1:14:49
Absolutely, I think yeah, the, what we might call virtue signaling is is quite, quite prevalent that there was a there was an old cartoon I saw about this of I think it was actually in French. But it's been translated to every language, you know, this woman's like washing the dishes, and the husband comes home and says, Oh, don't worry about it. It's International Women's Day, just leave it and do it tomorrow. And it's, you know, captures this attitude of completely missing the point. But, but But I take your, I take your meaning that and then the question becomes, what can actually be done here, because there are all sorts of ideas that come forth, like Iceland had a really interesting policy, where they said that, regardless of the ratio, on a board of directors, there must be at least three women, there must be at least three men, because they said, if you have one woman on a board of directors dominated by men, that's just a token woman, and her job is to sit in the corner and shut up. If you have two women, then those women can agree with each other. But the men will sort of ignore them. Once you have three, they said three women is enough to have an idea of bounce back and forth, that the men cannot ignore that conversation, they have to participate in that conversation. And they cannot silence that conversation that they've calculated that there is this minimum dynamic that you need to have three, who can support one another's perspective and support the Women's advocate for the women's cause within the organization. So I know that there are these types of ideas but what what can really be done to stop this type of virtue signaling this pink washing, as you say, and and get people to understand that it's not enough to make a social media post, it's not enough to basically draw attention to yourself and say, Look at me, I'm such a good feminist, but then go back to expecting your girlfriend to not only work a job, but then also come home and cook for you and clean for you and do all these other additional labor things like what what can be done to shift people into actual feminism and not performative feminism.
Nyein Chan May 1:17:09
Very first thing is education, because and education not only I am not meaning by that not only the formal education, but also informal education and also civic education. Because, we I also mentioned at the beginning, when we talk, when we mentioned the word feminism, people would think firstly, oh, this is again, this is again NGO vocabulary and so on, no feminism or women rights is, these are the words which are affecting our daily life, but people should see that so, how can they see that via education and also wire why I say here education, because without proper education, people cannot learn what asked what that is, what patriarchy is, people cannot see the society through their critical eyes, and this also should start within families, how sons are raised, or how daughters are raised, and also what is then gender gender neutral, raising of children. So, such kind of knowledges are to be passed to the society to to the people, so, which is then the most effective way or which is an effective way, of course, then the education. And second thing is then because you mentioned to women's, this one woman, two women, three women, and for me is having 5050 in a committee or whatsoever in a cabinet or whatsoever, it doesn't means it doesn't mean really gender equality, gender equality means more than that, more than 50% women and 50% men sitting inside a room it has gender equality means that the unpaid work of unpaid these domestic work of women has to be have to be recognized. And also, once the policies are made for the whole country, it should be considered that what would affect the women and marginalized groups and also even building a even building. Even mate building is building or something like that. So, this is the gender is should be taken as an aspect and mass aspect in every policymaking process. So then we could say this is done approach to gender ecology because on women's rights and also the situation of women and LGBT IQ a plus in a country, it is also a barometer of a country it is barometer of societal norms and also democracy of a country, because the world is now very improved. So, the other countries will also look at you. And the third thing is like having more and more women in the politics and in our the areas with their feminist knowledge. This is also important, because we have like, okay, 50% of women, but women who don't encourage other women to be with them to be at a position where they are, then it will not lead anywhere. So this is the this is the third one. The fourth one is I already talked about considering or taking account, women voices been thinking account, and so on. So it means don't just and learn to think about oh, this is not area for women, for example, when we talk about defense, or when we start talking about security. I mean, the world's had the world has changed, I already told about that. Because we have now security vocabulary, the security vocab is also expanded. We are now thinking about talking about human security. When we talk about human security, we have to talk about women's security and security of LGBTQ plus and marginalized groups.
Brad 1:21:38
Yeah. Absolutely. I think it just made me think what you what you said about 50% 50% Not not being equality. It, it just it just started me thinking about the ways in which the so many ways in which these these feminist goals can be subverted. And one of them being through statistics, it's very easy to manipulate numbers and make yourself look good. When in reality, as an organization, you're not doing good things. One of my high school mathematics teachers told me that statistics is just lying, but with numbers. And, and, and it's true. The employment of women, for example, has in fact, in many sectors been decreasing. As feminism pushed forth, because previously in the 60s and 70s, in the 80s, massive, massive massive numbers of women used to be employed in in secretarial tasks in calculation work in administrative jobs that have been supplanted by computers and and opening up the doors for women to enter these educated fields, in many cases, did not actually make up for the bleed in the women who were being fired by the hundreds as as computers and calculators and other such technologies came in to replace them. So it just it just reminded me of that whole problem with with trying to find and quantify mathematically equality and, and reaching these types of goals. But the other thing you say that it's vital to have women entering politics and women with feminist understanding entering politics, and this is something that I think in the Myanmar context is is a very interesting point. Because Myanmar is famous internationally for the figure of Ansan Suchi. And having this woman who was barred from taking the presidency by the military, and then the party creates this position for her, the State Counselor position to continue to give her a position of authority and respect and leadership within the NLD even after the military had made it impossible for her to take the actual nationally recognized leadership position. And the impression that this gives is that Myanmar is a country in which the political sphere already is reasonably feminist and already recognizes the the power of women and the legitimacy of women and is is welcoming to women who, who would want to rise through the ranks and would want to contribute in the political realm. And of course, now in the national unity government, we have character characters, as you say, um, figures like like, Z, my own, taking very powerful, very prominent positions as as a woman. Do you feel though that the political sphere is significantly more I don't want to say misogynist, but let's say male oriented than this image would would indicate.
Nyein Chan May 1:24:48
I will say that I have seen a lot of metals in recent three years. And sadly, I have to say it's still male dominated, because I'm I mentioned the point that because it is done on conflict, the at the time of uncomplete. And I already mentioned that because of security because of defense policy, people still think that defense policy or security or fighting with weapons, this is thing for men, these are this is kind of masculine things. So this kind of thought thinking should be changed. Of course, you mentioned that Aung San su chi or Zim our own the figures in the in the Myanmar politics. But in the meantime, I think one of two, having one or two fingers is not enough, because we have I already mentioned we are, we make women in Myanmar make more than half of the population. So if the gender if women's voices are ignored, and continue to be ignored, then even when the federal democracy or democracy is back in Yemen, it will be a democracy with deficit, because the viral meter on women's rights or agenda ecology is always down. So this is, this is the kind of thinking which progressive leader or one one call him or herself progressive leader, they should consider about this. This is first and the second thing is like, I've already told women with feminist thinking, and also, you know, women in leadership position, they also should, they also should consider, okay, how can I how can I multiply, like a person's like me, or how can I empower other women who want to be who wants to get involved in politics or other sector of the society. So this should be done by an strict policy. And other thing is, of course I talked about, I talked about sexual harassment and so on, but it is also here, very important that Myanmar has in mind is a country with domestic violence and so so domestic violence, sexual harassment against women, and LGBT iq plus should be also strictly prohibited, it should be also strictly, you know, considered in policymaking process, how can we prevent it? And also how the perpetrators can be held accountable? So these are the these are these kind of things should have feminist background, otherwise, it is just like, you have some words on paper, in implementation process, you don't implement anything, then it is, it is just what's on paper.
Brad 1:27:54
Absolutely, and it was just thinking about now that you've mentioned domestic violence that that did occur to me when I was in Myanmar, just the frequency of domestic violence, just the, the way that it was spoken about it, it just seemed to me, I wasn't reading the newspapers. But it just seemed to me that it was just a thing that was happening far more frequently than it seems to happen here in the West. And, I mean, maybe it's the acoustics but living in, in those concrete, you know, 10 storey apartment blocks, you can hear domestic arguments from, you know, across the street in a lot of cases, and there are very, very frequent occurrences it very much felt to me that domestic violence seems to be I don't want to say accepted, but people just seem to acknowledge that it's, it's a part of life much more so than then they would in the West though, I remember being quite disturbed by this is there is there some type of sort of cultural miscommunication happening that the I've misunderstood what was happening or is Myanmar culture simply not as aggressive in in stamping out domestic violence as others because he just now that you mentioned it it just made me remember just how often I came across domestic violence as a as a topic not not you know, witnessing it myself fortunately but But hearing about it happening and hearing about its its its frequency within Myanmar society?
Nyein Chan May 1:29:41
Yes, it is very frequent in human society. And the first thing is domestic violence cases of domestic violence are very, very few reported because people's own way or let's say the community say, Oh, this is personal You know, you guys are just a couples who go just talk and then it will be solved this is very, very wrong approach, because violence within a household it is not to be accepted, it is not to be tolerated. This is also what I have mentioned in my podcast series. And another point is marital rape. So, marital rape, in Myanmar, the the societal thinking is if a couple get married, they can do whatever they want, you know, so, this is like this is this is another, another complicated social phenomenon, but let's take very short view of that. So they can do whatever they want. So, even though without consent having having sex within the marriage, it means it is marital rape, but in people in Myanmar cannot accept that, this is the first thing. So this is also this has to do with what I what I mentioned the old outdated ideologies. And the second thing is, then when the society when the when people in the population, they cannot accept that, but then the policymakers should be progressive enough to think that to prevent and to protect women, in the community, in the society, because this is their job, they have the mandate that we we have we gave them our vote to make laws which are, which are, which could affect positively to us, which could help us to, to survive in this society. So this is kind of, you know, what I'm talking about the scenario where a democracy could work, but it is very far very, very far beyond. Let's take a step back. So what would be then a very initial step of that. So first thing is the sexual harassment and all this is sexual assault, within the resistance movement should be held accountable. It is not about because the sexual harassment and sexual assault within the resistance movement are more than sexual. These are sometimes abuse of power. These are sometimes demonstration of power by male leaders or by male authorities. So these should be stopped. And how can how can it be stopped? I already mentioned making the making law and policy which prevent this. And in the meantime, we have to talk about it openly. Because as I mentioned before, hiding these things sweeping these enter under the carpet, it will not help anybody.
Brad 1:33:01
Absolutely, absolutely. Another thing that I just want to be conscious of as as well, is, and you've been, you've been very sort of consistent throughout the interview in in giving our giving reference to the LGBTQIA plus community. But I want to make sure that I'm doing my due diligence in delineating between the specific problems and the specific struggles that women face within society. And the specific struggles of the LGBT plus community. Do you To what extent do you feel that these two movements these two struggles overlap? And to what extent do you think they need to be treated as two separate things that needs separate sets of solutions in place?
Nyein Chan May 1:33:49
So overlapping is I start with a very sad note it is done discrimination. So this is where it overlaps, where this is where it intersects. And in the meantime, when we find solution, we find a solution not only so this is why I started this is also where where it starts me to think about queer feminism or than intersectional feminism. So um, when we find solutions for these problems, these societal problems, very first thing is to listen what the communities want to what LGBTQIA plus ones because the cultural and the historical evidence show that the challenges and also difficulties which LGBT iq plus communities are facing a slightly different than what women in Myanmar are facing, because LGBTQ plus person where people were discriminated using will liegen they were they were discriminated by a member of community saying that oh, they are, they are not human or something like that. So this is another level of inhumane treatment. So that's why I would say that this is where I wouldn't say taking to take them as a different different power solution. But in the meantime, what are the intersection of discrimination and how it can be, how it can be removed, or how it can be solved. So this is where women and LGBT iq plus communities could talk together. And they can also develop the solution. And they can also talk what they want, this is very first step. And the second step is, of course, then the policymakers should also again, be enough progress to see this is also part of society. And this is what they have to consider in policymaking.
Brad 1:36:07
Absolutely, which, which would presumably be a relatively difficult thing to get the policymakers to understand considering that relatively few of the policymakers currently would have the necessary experience and the necessary training to be able to fully comprehend these problems, or potentially to recognize that they exist in the first place.
Nyein Chan May 1:36:29
This is what this is what I what I mentioned before this, why education. And also, of course, then in the meantime, this is change with the communities, this is very important. Because without any change with community, you cannot know that what the community really needs. And you just at the end of the day, you just made policies, which are leading nowhere.
Brad 1:36:54
So you would say, then, for example, let's say gay groups need to be more visible, they need to be more vocal, they need to be engaging more frequently and more directly with with those policymakers and stating very clearly to those policymakers, these are the problems that we're facing. These are the policies that would help us to overcome these problems like that, that has to happen has to be feeding to the policymakers. The community's needs, rather than the policymakers coming in and trying to do their own research from the outside.
Nyein Chan May 1:37:26
LGBT iq plus communities are being vocal for decades. But their voices are still again, here is again, the same problem with women's rights. Their voices are and hurt or let's say overlooked, or sometimes pretend to be in pretend not to be heard. So that's why they are still trying to struggle to present what they want and what they are facing. Yeah, so I have to for me, I just have to appeal that. This is not this is not late. This is now and this decisive moment moment for Myanmar, when we talk about we are building new Myanmar, we are building federal democratic country, then now is a very good time to hear, listen, people what they really want, and also taking them into account.
Brad 1:38:28
I think that's I think that's, that's a very nice direct way to put that. And I think that's a very natural tone for us to conclude on. Before we do end the episode, however, we always invite our guests to leave us with some final thoughts, something for our audience to consider as they go on about their day could be directly related to what we discussed, or it could be something a little bit more broad. But if there is anything that you want the audience to know want the audience to consider want the audience to think about and share with their friends, I would invite you to just share your thoughts with us now.
Nyein Chan May 1:39:09
The very, very, very first thing that popped up in my mind is women's rights and the rights of minors, rights of marginalized groups are not to be considered separately from the revolution. If we understand the broader definition of the word revolution, it is not only about fighting against the military Hunter, it is about fighting, it is about building a new society it is about defending ourselves against these ideologies, discriminatory ideologies. So if you define yourself as actor of your, if you define yourself you are acting actively in the revolution, then stop But thinking separately about women's rights and rights of marginalized groups, from the whole context of revolution, then it can get you. It can get you a clearer image of what should be done more effectively.
Host 1:40:26
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