Transcript: Episode #274: Breaking Ranks
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:13
The situation currently taking place in Myanmar is abominable. There is no safety anywhere in the world has all but turned its back on an entire people trying to claim their freedom and insist upon their human rights in the face of blatant evil and inhumanity. international media seems to have moved on to the next story, scarcely reporting on this one anymore, even as the horror continues. We get inside Myanmar podcast find this intolerable, and we stand behind the Burmese people and their courageous effort to live in dignity. This platform is dedicated to making sure that we keep the conversation going, while ensuring these voices continue to be heard. Today's guests is one of those voices and I invite you to settle in and open up to iPhones.
Brad 2:04
My guest today is a former police officer who has joined the CDM has fled Myanmar along with his family and currently resides in Japan, from where he continues to advocate for his fellow police officers to reject the military dictatorship to join the CDM and to likewise stand on the side of freedom and democracy. So I am very privileged to welcome Joe Samhain to our podcast. And John, if you would like to introduce yourself more completely to the audience, I would invite you to do that.
Kyaw San Han 2:37
Thank you very much for inviting me to this podcast. And it's a great honor to speak here. So let me introduce you. myself briefly. I am a former police Cap de jour San Juan from Myanmar. I drive the CDM to stand up for democracy in Myanmar and to oppose the dictatorship dictatorship in Myanmar. So my brief background is i i After I experience I survived from the cyclone nugget in May 2008. I wish to help civilians because I barely survive from the cyclone nugget. And I saw many people die in our region A over the region. So more than So, according to the statistics that that toll was over 100,000 people and the military leader they didn't do any effective refuse or any assistance to civilians. That is why I wish to be a government official to save our people to have our civilians. Therefore, I enjoy the police visit police training school in September 2008 after Cyclone nugget and after a six month training. In March 2009. I became a normal policeman. after that. I was selected to be an H A police cadet at riot police academy in Thailand for a four year study plus Thai language about one year so before I was I was sent to Thailand with another three Myanmar police officer. Three policemen We were promoted as a sub Lieutenant officer, one star. So after four year study with Thai police cadet around 300 Police cutters. We graduated from our BCA and we were promoted for Myanmar police officer were promoted as police lieutenant to stir. So I, we had one year job training in and around the beat of the capital city of Myanmar. After that, we were responsible for coordinating with international law enforcement agency, especially me, I was working at anti trafficking in person division of monopoly force inhibitor. So after that, I was awarded Australian Australia scholarship Australia our scholarship for my master's degree in International Relations from January 2018, to December 2019. So after that, I returned Myanmar. And I work as I work at the same division of monopoly force. So in 2020, I try dTT training school in acing Django for six months. So during the time, and due to the corporate COVID outbreak, we were not allowed to go out of the CID is a criminal investigation department. So I made a pre vote, a pre voting, and then I voted for LED party for Myanmar democracy. So at the time, my senior police officer, they threatened me not to vote for another party, because we are police officer. That is why and at the party was a threat to government officials or to the military and police force. But I voted for anarchy party, even and there were serious risks to me and my family who live in police apartment in navy door. So after that, many of you who happen on the first February 2021 I got some information before the military coup from my colleagues who were attending and dTT training school, DDS costs together with me. So I wish not to happen. I wish I I didn't wish the military coup, because I knew that it will be very bad for our country. But it happened and five days later Australian economic adviser, Providence Chardonnay was arrested in Yangon and I involved in his case. So, after TDs I returned to Navy door and then I had to work at at the trafficking person division at MPD in short, again, so, do do my assistant to prefer the shot and a case my head of division was not pleased with my machine. So I was assigned to be a security team leader inhibitor for around six months. So during the time, my colleagues they suspended on me that I am a watermelon who left democracy and try to support democracy. So after a profit I shouted a case after my support to democracy so I plan to take my family out of police apartment in libido and out of Myanmar, because we were in danger. So finally, my family could get Fiza to free Myanmar in certain modules on a 21 and I could follow my do my I could follow my family Uh, in May 2022. So after that I was waiting for prophetess shoulder release in Thailand. And once she has once he was released, I incurred free Thailand to Japan. And now I am speaking out for democracy in Myanmar, and to oppose the middle, and the gender data, may ally and rejean in Myanmar. So I became I was recognized as a refugee in Japan in July 2023. And so, so far, I am collaborating with an EEG in Japan to stop to and the leadership in Myanmar. So, this is about me pretty free from the beginning, how I became a policeman, and why I joined the CDM. Yes, okay.
Brad 11:03
So there's quite a lot there. And I want to, I want to follow up. The first is that you, you use the phrase watermelon. And it's a lovely phrase. I think that some of our listeners might not be familiar with the phrase watermelon and and what it means. So can you can you explain that a little bit?
Kyaw San Han 11:26
Yes, so what am I alone has two colors, green, outside and red inside. So green represents to the military back party, US dB, or military uniform color. So green means military, or dictatorship in Myanmar. So red represents to democracy. So for what am I alone, which means government officials, who love democracy, support democracy, insight, but is difficult to show to public because of fear to ourselves and to our family. So be a watermelon in the organization, especially in the military, or in police organization, is very dangerous. So one day one, the chief of police or the military leader found out that I am a watermelon. So they arrest me immediately. And tortured to death. Be a betrayal to them be an enemy to them. So it is very difficult. So very sensitive. What? to government officials, we are so afraid of naming what am I alone, buying our head of division or chief of police. Yeah, but for normal people, they love watermelon. Because so what am I alone can take sensitive document and competency document to the media to public. So to help democracy to have Myanmar people. So for people of Myanmar, what a man is a hero name. So we are proud of being what am I not?
Brad 13:25
Excellent. And one thing that you that you said, you know, really surprised me. So you you said that you were threatened not to vote for the NLD. Now, that's surprising to me, because my understanding is that in Myanmar voting is done secretly. And so there is no way for anyone to know if you voted for the NLD or if you voted for the USDP. So why were you afraid of punishment?
Kyaw San Han 14:02
So before the election, the military leaders, they try to use every possible ways not to let the military personnel or the police policemen vote freely with their own wish. So they use the fear they use the order and to threaten policemen and military personnel. Now the vote for the party. So including, so it will be very dangerous to us and to our family. So they can check it later. So they threaten us that they can check it later who we voted for. So before 2020 election, so in 2015 or previous elections that generally Does the control the government officials votes they, especially military and police organization, officers, that is why we fear to vote for another party for the democracy. But finally, I decided to vote for another party because I believe that at the party can make our democracy stronger, and can contribute our country to employment as a police officer. So I voted for the party, even my seniors officer threaten me before the election. So they threaten all of us all of the trainees in the classroom. So I believe that the party they want when I say they won't give our voice to military to check that these police officer folder for Allante because it will be very dangerous to me and my family. So I believe in at the party, so I gave my vote to the party as a police officer.
Brad 16:14
So So I just want to clarify. So at the time that you are voting when you are filling in the paper, nobody is watching you. Nobody is spying on you. Actually completing the voting paper. It's later on that you're afraid that they're going to open the ballot and check.
Kyaw San Han 16:33
Yeah, one I was voting. So it is individually. Booth. So you're no one was watching us. So we give our vote. But it was a pre vote. So they can check our vote later. Because I was in Yangon. And my 14th. Area is inevitable. So they took my vote. Son back to Navy door. And then yeah, so the election commission, they can check my vote. But even they are they are by name was no written on the vote, but they can check that I am the only one who voted for that election area. Because I was away from maybe though. I was in NC CID. So just one only me who voted for you know that Napier city, therefore anti party. So it was very easy to check my vote, and then take action to me by the agenda leader. But after the election. So my vote I they were destroy. So they could not check my vote. Yeah. So that is why Yeah, I was safe. And by the for our election involve election yet. Mother relation case. But there were another case as I wish I was so worried about my safety and my family safety, such as private Oshana keys. And yeah, my to the team leader. Yeah. Case.
Brad 18:19
So another thing that comes up to me like you said that you were motivated to join the police, after Cyclone Nargis in 2008. Now, not only, like you said, You come from EOD, which was horrifically damaged by the cyclone, very, very brutal. 2008 Not only did did the regime at the time, not help the people, in fact, they they temporarily changed the exchange rate of the chat to six chat to the US dollar in order to extract money from from international aid, but also 2008 was the year that the military held a referendum on the Constitution. And it was like 98% approval or 97% approval, something something unbelievable. But I happen to know that the military also controls the police force. So I want to understand what was your thinking back in 2008? You know, some some 26 years ago. What was your thinking? What did you believe that the police were separate from the military and would behave in a better way? Or were you hoping that you could change things internally? Or did you just believe back in 2008 that the military was not as as evil as we know they are today?
Kyaw San Han 19:53
Yes. Firstly, Myanmar police force was controlled by them. Military always says the past until now. So the image of Myanmar police force is really bad. So the civilian Myanmar civilians, never trust bullet force and military. So whenever there is an election, the military always lost. So, they wanted to make their own constitution to make their own game to win the election. So in 2008, so, there were many weather forecast is bad, who went about natty cyclone. So it will be very dangerous, very strong cyclone to allow the region but the military leader that gender leaders, they didn't pay attention with central nugget. Instead, they pay attention on the Constitution. One, I realized about this later that they use Cyclone Nargis as a tool to make people suffer from the natural disaster. So people cannot judge their constitution. So people cannot pay attention with 2008 constitution. So they can, they can add, they can make their constitution legal, easily. So that gender leader it know, to save or ignore, to give serious warning to the civilian. So I was my family. Also, my family was were fit teams by the Cyclone Nargis. So I'm barely survived in a small village, where I was away from my family. So my family thought that I died in cyclone nugget, like others, so I could return my home city after three days. So we didn't receive any international aid or any assistance from the middle gender leaders. So finally, they told us, today's a constitution was agreed by the majority of NUMA people, but we didn't even know about that. We suffer from the cyclone nugget. And then we cannot reset, we cannot recover our lives. So after that, so just I was just around 18 years old. So I wanted to help these papers as much as I could. So I wanted to be a government officials to use the law to use using by using law to help people and then to change the organization from inside. So so at the time, there was a recruiter who recruited as young people to join the police force. So I was recruited by that man, and I had to try that visit trainee, visit police training school for six months. So in a police training, we were brainwash about the politics, about staffing to civilians. So we were trained with fear, to obey the orders from our seniors, officer, we cannot judge or we cannot question about their orders. So even the law was not fair. We had to do it. We have to over this. So many human rights violation happen in the police training school. So once we've finished our police training school, these police man became a bad police man to not to have civilians. Instead, they travel civilians, they took advantages from the civilians. So I was so disappointed by the police training school or by the mindset of the senior police officer. So later, I knew that they were transfer from military. So they took military mindset to pulley force. So that is why I always wanted to chain police. My police force mindset from inside as much as I could. So I tried to educate myself. So the more I educated, the more I could change my own Position better and more effectively. So that is why I try. Start I tried to study abroad, in Thailand and in Australia.
Brad 25:16
So I think this is a very important question because it it speaks to the, as you say the mindset, the mentality of the police. Can you explain to us a little bit about the training because, you know, here in the West, police training is different in every country. But sometimes it's long training, sometimes it's a short training in Norway, becoming a police officer is three years a unit needs a university degree, to become a police officer. In some countries, it's only a few months of training. But the idea is that the training that the police receive is supposed to be conducted professionally, the police academy is meant to train you to be healthy, fit, to understand the law, and to be able to act in a dangerous situation in a way that will be safe and and helpful. It seems that the millet the police training in Myanmar is very aggressive is from how you've described it to me in the past, I would even say it sounds abusive. So can you can you walk us through? Because you said you did six months police training? What what is police training? You know, like, are you living there? Do you travel there every day? How many hours are you are you training? Are you in a classroom? Are you training in the field? Is it physical exercise? How are you treated by your senior officers? What are you being taught all of these sorts of things? Can you explain to us the training?
Kyaw San Han 26:57
Yes. So firstly, I would like to explain about the police training school in Myanmar. So there is no police academy in Myanmar because military leaders, so they never wish to improve police organization in Myanmar. So police force is always Junia. Organization for military. So Military Academy. Okay, there is DSA and different service academy. But no police academy just police training school and Officer police training school. So for police visit police training school is sis mass course. An officer Police Training School is one year cause so for me, I had to dry visit police training school because I just finished high school. So I was waiting to study at the university, but a work queue that told me that I should try and visit police 20 school first. So after after being a policeman, so I can continue my university and after graduation, I can go to the officer training school. And he also currently me to to get the leaf to my study in October 2008. Because my university fasciae started in October 2008. But he asked me to July in September 2008, the basic police training school, so I didn't get leaves to study my first year. So I had to postpone my first year study. So this is first human rights violation that he gave me a false hope, a false information. So to to recruit a new policeman. So when I entered the physical training school, I saw many young man some people were very young, and other 18 years old. I was also an 80 years old when I joined the visibility training school. So they didn't care about the 18 years old age. So they just want to get an rookie of the year a new policeman to join the police training school. And even in a school, the food we ate the accommodation, everything were very bad. It was like a prison. So we cannot go out we were not allowed to go out and they use the physical abuse to train us. So I got hit many times on my own A cheek, I got slammed on my cheek or I got an I got hit on my hip with allow bamboo bamboo stick. So I'm crying there. My parents didn't hit me like that. But the trainer's they hit me hard very strongly, and it was hard. So every trainees got that serious punishment. So we fear as a young as a teenagers. So we fear the trainers, so we obey their orders. And they make money from us as much as they could. So, so many human rights violation started from the police training school. So we learn laws. But these laws, we have learned to use as a tool to make money from the civilians, to tribal civilians. So after the police 20 school, the senior police officer, they were from military, so they use the order to control as what to do for them. So police man, a police officer. We were used by the military completely. So that is why the rear police, the reappraise man on the rear police officer. We didn't like the military officer or police officer who transfer from military. So they don't even know any law, or regulations about the police. So they just use the order to get what they want from the civilians. So that is why the image of police force never good for a to the civilians to the Myanmar people.
Brad 32:13
So I want to go back, you said that the the trainers made money from you. Can you explain what you mean by that?
Kyaw San Han 32:24
Yeah, so simply, they just ask money from me. Like, if you don't give me money, I will give you a punishment. So something I have to ran around the building, I have to push up Wow, two times, I have to do a lot of cleaning the daddy toilets. So they all army everything. As long as I don't give money to them. So when my family came to the police training school, so my family gave me food, and money, so they had to hide that money inside the food to give me because if the trainers, they found out that I received the money, they taught all of that, since we enter the basic training school, they such everything we brought from our home, they told us these equipments, this stuff cannot be used in the training school. So they took all of them. And they didn't return to us, they use our stuff. So not just money, but also our belongings, the trainers, they took them they use them. If they don't get what they want, they use the punishment as a tool to control to fear as So finally, I was so tired, I was so hard. So I give my money to the trainers not to hug me again. So, one, once they get a little bit money from us, they want more and more. So that is very similar violations. And I was so disappointed the training I received in the police trainee. But this is not professional.
Brad 34:21
But yeah, not just not professional. I mean this this sounds like you know, a high school bully in a bad 1980s movie, or I've heard people who have gone to prison. They've described their lives in prison. And what they're talking about in prison sounds exactly like what you're saying. The people who are in a higher position will come to you and they will say you have to give me money or you have to give me commissary, you have to give me you know, food cigarettes, whatever. And if you don't, you have to work for me or I will beat you. Like this is not just not professional. This is So this is like a prison.
Kyaw San Han 35:04
Verse lewdly. That is why I mentioned the word prison. So when I joined the police training school for six months, I felt like I was in the prison for six months.
Brad 35:20
And because of some work that I did, I actually was in in Naypyidaw, some some years before the coup. I was in Aikido, and I was working with the police in Aikido. And I saw the, the barracks of the police, the conditions in which they were living. And these were not even cadets, these, these were actual police officers, they had already become members of the police. And where they were staying was, it was horrific, like it, it would not even be good enough to be a military barrack. It was parts of the building were collapsing, they didn't have heating, they didn't have air conditioning, they barely had electricity. They didn't have running water, like some of the most horrible conditions that I would not imagine any government expecting their people to live in. And this was this was considered to be normal. So I've heard these things. I've seen these things, but the way that you describe it just just makes it even worse than then what I than what I saw. And so the question that I have to you is, did you feel your mentality changing? Did going through that six months of police training of abuse? Did that make you angry? Or did that make you want to hurt other people or want to abuse your power? Like you seem to say other members of the police training changed? Or did you manage to stay strong? Did you manage to reject these these desires for revenge these desires for power? Did you did you feel that you came out of that experience without changing as a person?
Kyaw San Han 37:17
So for me, yeah, before I joined the police training school, I was suffer from the Nagas cyclone. So I, I really wish to have civilians. So after the police training school, I'm fed so disappointed, but it taught me to change the police mindset, as much as I could. So some of my friends, they change their mindset that, oh, okay, after the police training school, they had power. So they became a policeman at police station. So they can take advantages from the civilians, because they suffer from the police training school, by their trainers. But for me, I knew that I have to save the civilians. So I cannot change as a as an EVA, which they wanted to me to. They wanted me to be like that. So they brainwash us to make advantages from the civilians to have corruption. So the gender leader made pulley force, very bad, live in the back condition. So we have to make money from the civilians. So so we became how can I say we became a bad organization, like military. So that is what gender leader wants police force to be. So for me, I try to educate myself to be a police officer as quickly as possible. So once I became a police officer, I could change the police men mindset more than before. So I tried to finish my university and try to Yeah, I tried to be a police officer. But I was lucky that I could study at riot police academy or BCA in Thailand. So I feel like riot police could Academy in Thailand was great. So they train us to be a good police officer to serve the civilians. So that is what I want to attend. That is the police academy. I wanted to attend what I expected to be professional police officer. So after attending for years, at RBC, so I realized that the leaders, the military leaders Ask. So they never wanted Myanmar poly force be a professional organization. So the big difference between Myanmar poly force and Ryan time police. So I understood clearly. So I never changed my mindset to help civilians. And so to be a professional police officer, but a lot of police man, they had bad mindset by the police training school. Once they had, they came to power, they use that power to travel, civilians, the more people had traveled, the more they can have corruption.
Brad 40:49
So the question then is, why do you think the military did this? I mean, the the military themselves, the soldiers themselves, tend to be segregated, isolated, away from civilians, right? They live on their military bases, they go to separate schools, they go to separate hospitals. They they are kept away from civilians, but the police live among civilians, they work among civilians. What is the advantage to the military dictatorship? If the poor people do not trust the police? If the police are just terrorizing the civilians regularly, why do you think the military did not want there to be a professional police force?
Kyaw San Han 41:37
So firstly, a Myanmar military is the strongest institution. So poly force is another am organization so we can use can in our duty, so on our duty, we can use can and we, we were trained by the weapons. So once there is something like the most demonstration, or protester, so military, they has to use pulley force to crack down the protest crew, to arrest the protester or to investigate them. So they always wanted to control the police force. So in in the past, in 1988, there was a uprising, so many police man days stood up with the civilians. So the military, also a worry that if please stand with civilians, it will be a threat to military to so many military officer, they transferred to police organization, and they got a higher rank, a higher position. So they give order to junior police officer. Even they don't know about the law. They don't know about the policing. So finally, the image of police is not good to the civilian. So military, always want to separate police organization from the civilians. So they can use police force easily and more effectively. So they never want that to improve or to upgrade the police force, or even the accommodation, or the salary or the brand. So police officer who came from police training school, they get very slow rank, it is very difficult to get a higher rank for the real policeman.
Brad 44:07
So, okay, so let's let's fast forward them because you've painted an image of the police force across Myanmar as being abused by the military being mistreated, underfunded, under rewarded and and driving the police towards corruption and abuse of of the people, which is a pretty terrible situation. So if we fast forward to 2021 when the coup happens, what what was the response of the police because we saw many different responses, you know, policing in all parts of Myanmar wanted to control the protesters. But there seem to be very different reactions from different regions of Myanmar with regards to what the police did how the police failed Well, and and what their opinion was on the coop from within the police force, what can you tell us from what you were seeing and what you were hearing from your fellow officers.
Kyaw San Han 45:11
So before the coup, I could say that many police man, police officer, they are not satisfied with their military. Military yet with the military, or the police officer who transfer from the military, but due to the fear, they cannot do anything. So after the coup, so in the beginning of the code sample is men, they wish to oppose the gender. So they wish to stand up for the democracy. However, the gender leaders, they took serious action to these police man, arresting police man, including their family, even senior police officer who criticize the agenda, or the military cool, they were arrested. That is why after the military coup, when these kinds of cases happen, Manny police man, they cannot dare to stand up for democracy, they cannot join the CDM to oppose the gender. So the fear is the main weapon that used by the gender leader, male ally and regime. So police man they are afraid of they are worried about their safety and their family safety. So even they wish to Center for Democracy, but they don't dare even now. So inside, they might have some democracy mindset, they knew that the gender is bad, the military coup was not fair. But they cannot do anything, just go along with the gender leader order. So some good police man, they dry the CDM. And now they disappear. Some were arrested or somewhere in bola areas. So they even now they are no they don't they have to show up on the social media or everywhere. So they are in fear. So that is why I plan everything confidentially to take my family out of police apartment in the middle, because they were and civilians by my head of division, and maybe door. And then I had to secretly out of leaf, Myanmar. So otherwise, so since the military coup happened, my head of police, head of division seriously threatened to me and my family that if we stand up for democracy, if we join CDM and oppose the agenda, we would be arrested quickly, easily, and we will get killed in the prison. So that fear was very serious, very big to ask. Not to oppose the agenda. But they're gonna stop me. Yeah, because I knew that the military coup was not fair. And the leader, the gender leaders male lie now he had no mercy to civilians. So he is crazy for his power to protect his power only. So as you know, now, just recently, so Myanmar agenda declares that military military service laws is now came to enforce. So every Gen. Person person in Myanmar must serve for the military. So that is very ridiculous. So now he is using our civilians to protect for him. Yeah. Not for the country.
Brad 49:42
Although this is this is, so there are a couple of really important points. The first is that okay, yeah, two days ago, at time of recording, the military announced a mandatory conscription measure that I, in theory, because they will argue that the nation is in a state of emergency can call up all male civilians. I think also some female, but all male civilians from what was at the age of 18 to 35 for five years of military service and even older, if they are engineers, if they are doctors, if they are, are people with a skill and a profession. However, we have seen, at least I've heard reports that in places like Naypyidaw, they have already forced the police to become basically soldiers, and have also forced government workers from government officers to become soldiers. So the conscription law is is ridiculous, as you say. But it seems that the military have been doing this for some time, forcing people to work for the military work as soldiers forcing people, you know, to be police forcing people to fight for them to protect me and ally. This does not seem to be a new strategy from the military. Would you agree?
Kyaw San Han 51:14
Yes, absolutely. Even when I was in Aikido, I was working at Police Headquarter and anti trafficking person headquarters. So there were many trainees for the family of policemen. So to train, with AMS with weapons. So in case of emergency, like right now, so they had planned already, if they lose their soldiers, they are police. A lot. So they were us, the families of the military personnel and police man first. So after that, if that is not enough, they stay loose. They are they are manpower, they still lose their personnel. So they will use civilians as next step, maybe final step. Because Myanmar doesn't care how many lives will be tied, will be dead for his crazy, because he just wants to, he just don't want to lose his power. So he has many plan. So all of his plans, try their civilians, make everyone make a lot of people die by his madness on the power. So yeah, so especially your the families of police force, or military personnel, they were already trained by the weapons by the year against. So now is not enough. That is why nice strategy is to use civilians to fight each other. So may online made civilians fight each other and made tragedy between civilians. So it will be a very comprehensive, severe war in the country. So not just between military personnel, Poli force, and I think UnCruise or PDF, but also between civilians. It will be very bad to all of my people.
Brad 53:43
So the other question that I have based on something that you said, you said that when after the coup, you know, they they knew that you were a watermelon, you're superior said that you would be arrested and that you would be killed in prison. Now, that's a that's a very serious threat. My question is, do you believe that the police not not just putting you in prison and some other criminal will kill you? Because because they're a criminal? Do you believe that the police themselves would put you or would put a watermelon in prison and would murder you in that prison? Is that a real thing thing?
Kyaw San Han 54:34
Yes, it is. Because there were already many cases like me who were watermelon. They were arrested. And now some they were killed in the prison and their families. Sometimes they couldn't even get the dead body because the poor Is the press organization afraid that if the body was given to the family, so, they will take pictures of the body, and that picture would go viral on the social media. So it will be a very bad image to the monopoly of force controlled by the military. So the head of division or the chief of police, so whenever they give serious stress, they made it, they made it happen, because they, they were so humbled as a career. So, even now, you might see some news that even civilians who stand up for democracy, they got arrested and got killed in the prison with any excuse, and then the body that were given later, if the condition is good, but if the body condition is bad, they won't give. So, for police officer and military personnel, so, we were trained to serve for the gender. So, they fare furious, one way oppose the agenda. So, we got more punishment, more torture to death than civilians. So, that is why it was my greater fear that if I could, if I got the if I got arrested, so I will also get tortured to death including my family. So, that is why after I save, preferred a shout Aeneas live in the CID integration room. So, I told my family that we have to escape from the police department in libido and we have to flee Myanmar, because once my head of police or my Chief of Police knew about me, we were done in Myanmar. So, our news would disappear quietly in the prison. So, that is why I had to plan everything confidentially. So, if my head of police knew that, I tried to talk, I tried to take my family out of police department or out of Myanmar, they were surely arrest me and tortured to death as a enemy. So, now I became the enemy and my family also as the obvious target to arrest even now in Myanmar, because they arrest family as a hostage to get the one that military personnel or police officer back to Myanmar to give punishment. Therefore, now, I am requesting Australian Government to save my family to Australia, because currently my family is in Thailand. And as you know, many police officer now seven Nima police officer who graduated from RBC and another four are currently attending RPC. So, there is a strong cooperation between Myanmar poly force and Riot high police. And another important thing is if my family get killed in Thailand, for example, there will be you know, some someone son by the gender, take my family or kill my family in Thailand and they return to Myanmar. So, no one arrest that criminals. So at the moment, you know, law enforcement in Myanmar is very bad, especially carrying to the PDF or carrying to the democracy lever. It is very easy and no police arrest these criminals. So, yeah, even now, my family is under threat by the pro military, Telugu and Chinese. You might know how new Jaws water you can Chinese. So we knew about me. So they announced the arch, the Myanmar police force to arrest my family even they are abroad. So if they get my family, they get me. So, so yeah, these human rights violations. They are not gentlemen, they are bad guys. That is why CGT N came to Finish to end the dictatorship in Myanmar because they are not professional. They had no mercy to civilians.
Brad 1:00:01
So this is I want to go back. I want to clarify this. When you were there when you were still working in Cid, did you hear any of the police talking about or planning or, or anything like this torturing and killing protesters was it was it something that you you you saw people or you heard people planning or discussing or something that you knew people were doing or was it more of a vague rumor that you heard from other places?
Kyaw San Han 1:00:42
So, yeah, for me, one I was attending detective training school in Cid, Ensign Yangon. So, my accommodation was just behind the CID main beta. So that bathing has many rooms. So after the military coup, the CID police officer, they arrested some high level protester and they brought they took these people to Cid, and they torture they investigate the torture and I heard the scream. One I was just behind the CID embedding. So, the the pain, the voice with pain also, how can I say is a very loud sometimes once I became the first interpreter for the Providence Chandani so I could access to the CID may be sad. So I pass these rooms, so that rooms were closed, completely, I cannot see inside, but I heard their screams with the pain and fear. So I saw the Providence shout Aeneas, country condition in the integration room, very small and very uncomfortable. So even profit as shown down there, they try to torture him to investigate to get sensitive information from the professor. So I didn't. So I told the integration team that not to torture, proper sound. And even I was a trainee, but I was a police captain at the time. So the police officer, they didn't torture the over the shoulder knee. But they tried to make Providence shout out they're disappointed, upset or retired. So as much as they could. They've fear profit as shown, in many ways, both physically and mentally. So he didn't receive enough food, good food or good pilot. So I manage everything in background to save profit or shorter life and the inoculation team. So they discussed in the team that once we had enough sensitive information from the professor, he could die in the integration room due to the COVID are due to his suicides because of the bad condition there. Because no one knew where Providence showed on the West in the beginning. Even the Australian Embassy in Yangon didn't know where he was. So everything was confidential. So Providence showed that it was VVIP very important person to charge our State Counselor, Aung San su chi and our president, so. So even prophetess Chandani caught these kinds of physical and mental abuse. So after mine contribution to prefer Chardonnay, the chief of police and Mayor lie, they didn't like my report to release prefer Chardonnay to Australia. So they replaced me with another interpreter and another integration team. So other times over the Chardonnay got abused by the new another integration team. So as you can also read about this in details in his book name and the library prisoner. So it is on both ebook and you can also buy a hardcopy book on on his Facebook on the website he mentioned. So he wrote everything in detail is what he Saffer in the CID integration room, and he also heard the scream by others by other people. Yeah. And this end, so it was very cool to, to, to hear their voice, their screams, and I even didn't know their fate in that integration room, they could get key insight and no one knew who they were and where they were taken. Nice.
Brad 1:05:43
So, this is it's a very interesting story that you tell because as as you're probably aware, we've we've interviewed Professor Sean tonale quite a few times on this channel, we've had the privilege of speaking to him and it is very rare for us that our guests know each other. And it's, it's a fascinating insight I think most of our audience would probably be familiar with with Professor tonale and with his his writings and his interviews is quite well quite well known especially after the coup and I know that he's he he has written about you specifically in his book and I as we were preparing for this interview, I actually reached out to to Professor tunnel to ask about his memories of you and and your interactions in insane and he had nothing but wonderful things to say about you and nothing but gratitude for everything that you that you did for him so it's it's it's such a remarkable coincidence. And what I want to ask first about this story is this was this was in Cid insane so this is the criminal investigation department in insane so let's clarify because I think for most of our audience, when they think of insane they think of insane prison you know, very famous political prison. is CID insane, connected to insane prison or is it separate?
Kyaw San Han 1:07:20
So it is nearby. The Insane prison? Yeah, so not far from the insane prison.
Brad 1:07:27
Okay, but it is a different facility.
Kyaw San Han 1:07:30
Yes. So it is separated. Okay. And
Brad 1:07:34
Cid, the criminal investigation department? What do they actually do?
Kyaw San Han 1:07:41
So before military coup, Cid was famous for investigating the National Labor crimes, very difficult crimes that police station, the investigator at police station could not investigate. So Cid, had its reputation among the police man police officer. But after the military coup, Cid was order to focus on the political the political protester, so the political case cases. So the VIP were taken to the CID, and were investigated in the inauguration room. So nowadays, Cid, and SB special bro brands, or military intelligence, so they were used by the gender leaders, male and territory to get sensitive information from those important VIP. So one, I was the first interpreter for Providence, Chardonnay. They also gave me Professor ternary book to to, uh, to take sensitive information from his book To arrest more people regarding to his case. So they were made a comprehensive, a strong law suit, a strong charge, you had to put him in prison and to to charge the offense duty and our president. So I told them that there was nothing wrong with his timely book that is just normal, timely book. So they didn't believe me. So they didn't give me his electrical devices. So they use another police officer, like cyber crimes police officer to take sensitive information out of his political advisors. So, something like that now, so, there are many police organizations, divisions in Myanmar, but all of these were used by the military of the gender leaders for the political cases only. So, that is why Yeah,
Brad 1:10:22
this is high level stuff here like this is not normal crimes, this is for they were trying to to go after Professor tonnelle, for what for treason, or something like this.
Kyaw San Han 1:10:37
So, mainly, they want to find excuses to charge, our State Counselor, Aung San su chi and our president. So Professor was the main economic advisors to the, to the answer Soo Ji to our state councilor Dawson City or we call a mesa. So like our mother, so, Professor plays very important role to charge our second celadon society. So, that is why he may apply didn't release him as soon as possible even he had no mistakes. So, in the beginning, I knew that he was unfairly arrested and finally put in in the coalition room and in the prison, nearly around sorry for 650 days. And then yeah, he could not survive there due to the poor condition, but accommodation food and he could suicide himself, because of the disappointment or disappointed or everything. Yeah, so that is what Janome allies plan to make it happen. But finally, due to the international pressure due to the request from the Australian Government, so finally, Myanmar, I thought that Professor Chardonnay would not speak out after his release to Australia. He will be quiet. That is what may online one that but yeah, Providence Chandani speak out a lot about the brutality of male lie. So now Providence Chardonnay is also under arrest behind the male lie. So that is ridiculous. You know, yeah.
Brad 1:12:39
But so when you when you were brought into Cid, to interpret and to check the diary, did you already know who Sean turnout is? Or was this your first time finding out about this person?
Kyaw San Han 1:12:54
No, it was like, I didn't know about him. So firstly, after a military coup, I wish that he is not a Myanmar because if he is a Myanmar, he would be arrested too, because many, you know, high level. Our Democratic leaders were arrested. So at other time, I was taken out of the CID, to the time we put a station and then I saw him in the Tampa Police Station, surrounded by my police force. I mean, I'm a police man. I'm a police officer. I was so shocked. So I didn't expect to see him like that condition. Yes, he is the one who I respect. So, he contributed our country a lot. He is a gentleman he is very high, but he is arrested like that. So one. On the way back to Cid, I was thinking that how I could help him. So he could return to Australia as quickly as possible to renew the and with his family, because I knew that he could not survive in Cid integration room. Do you do the COVID Or do you do the integration, interrogations die, you know, very brutal. So, one we arrived back to CID. I tried to warn him that Professor Please do not say any sensitive information to the integration team. Because they are so they told me to ask since the information from Professor to charge him and then to put him in the prison and maybe he could get killed after we have enough information. So I was so shocked. Why what for Because if he is still alive, he would speak out about his arrest later. So, so, there are so many like sensitive confidential orders in the inoculation team. So, that is why I want profitless Szentendre. Secretly that please be careful with your answers. Because you will get charged and put in prison because of your answer. And I secretly took his picture, or CCTV camera, and I saved his picture and kept his picture for years, until his release, and they Yeah, I could recover that picture from my phone. Because I put his picture in my spouse says, informed with password. Otherwise, if someone found out that I have his picture, I took his picture, I will get arrested and get you in a prison be a beach reader to the agenda.
Brad 1:16:05
So I was just wondering like you use he was on CCTV? Was there a camera in the interrogation room itself?
Kyaw San Han 1:16:14
Yes, so there was a camera on in the integration room. So whatever we speak, it was recorded by the CCTV camera outside.
Brad 1:16:25
So there's a microphone as well.
Kyaw San Han 1:16:27
I think yes. So, there is CCTV and then I think they can hear what we speak inside. So, there is one no window, but just like a mirror. So, the officer they can see as from outside, they can hear as so something like integration Room No. So for creaminess. So, but, you know, the it was a very small room. So, so, that picture you can see in his book. So, I took that picture and that I could send him Yeah, so, he mentioned me with that pitcher and my pitcher in his book.
Brad 1:17:11
So, when you so this is important, then because when you told him to be careful with his answers, and to not give incriminating information, it sounds to me like it is almost certain that the other police your superiors and the military would have a recording of you saying this, do you think that they know that you told him to to not reveal information?
Kyaw San Han 1:17:42
Yet at the time I was so afraid of wanting him like that, but it was the beginning of the inauguration. So, once he was in, in the house, so he mentioned that that is that boughs be very small room. So just before the integration, team leader was taking the questions, the question sheet, so I told him quietly secretly so that is why so no one's notice that what we were talking about. So firstly, I mentioned that who I am, and I graduated from the Flinders University, I receive Australia was scholarship supported by the Australian Government. So after that, I want him quite quietly secretly so I was lucky that no police officer could understand English but guess what? Yeah, I felt a little bit confident to one him so I was the only one who could speak English
Brad 1:18:47
at the time the only one in Cid Yes,
Kyaw San Han 1:18:50
I will say yes. Because other time so other time the CID police officer so they can speak English a little bit maybe but at the time when we had in the investigation integration with Professor so I was just the interpreter and I was only good understand English where and this I mean, this is incredible.
Brad 1:19:14
And so going back a little bit as well I am we have a map that you sent from from Google Images, highlighting your accommodation behind the CID building and the CID building itself. And you said and we'll we'll try to put this image up on this underneath the episodes so people can compete can compare it. But you said that you could hear the screams and the cries of the people who the the protesters who are being tortured in the CID building your dormitory was was across a quadrangle from the CID building with many trees between your dormitory and the CID building it seems like a sound would have to be very loud for you to be able to hear it from from your your dormitory. Did you did you feel that you could hear clearly what was happening in the CID building? Was it loud enough for you?
Kyaw San Han 1:20:29
So one I was in CID. So sometimes, so I was on duty something like I am the only one who responsible for checking every points in CND. So it is on duty. And then so just behind my accommodation, so, so you might see trees, but just beside trees, there is something like a football coat, a tennis, tennis, tennis, basketball courts. So we had our regular exercise there. So just behind the CID main bathing. So there is a cap. So I see that. Yeah, yeah. So I want to stay there. So so good night, it is dark there. So now in my accommodation, but behind my accommodation behind the CNE, baby. So I was there to check what is happening in the main building. I was curious why trainees cannot assess that building. Because, you know, that is confidential. So we are not allowed to pass or to go inside the CID. Maybe. So be a god, I was on duty. So I was so curious. And I was a police captain. That is why no one they didn't want to have to stop me you had to go somewhere. So I could go near to the CID buddy. And I could hear the screams Interesting. Yeah, but not in my accommodation. Behind my accommodation. Yeah.
Brad 1:22:12
This is unrelated. I'm just looking at the Google map image that you sent. And I just noticed that the map has actually labeled beside the DTS building. Mazhar gonia there's a little shop to sell beta or not, I just find it very amusing that that that that is on the map, but we will share that image so people can can see it, because it's a very clear picture that this pain
Kyaw San Han 1:22:42
so and especially Yeah, the CID may be in picture is now it is confidential, it is not on the social media. So, we are very restricted not to take picture inside, especially the CID main building. So, they have very sensitive information or very sensitive you know, things inside. So, we are not to take picture. So, you cannot find that picture on the website. And then of course, you know, even I speak out about Providence shout out there are about a CID, the chief of police, the gender leader. So, they are really angry at me because I give off a document or official information to the media or to you know, to the war. So, to let the war know that what is really happening in Myanmar, how gender male life through there. So there is kind of obviously, you know, secret leak, obviously a secret at Yeah, I will be arrested by the Jenner male light and regime like Providence shout. And so he also he was charged by that law, official secret, you know, at
Brad 1:24:07
and so the other the other part of that, that we haven't spoken about yet, the the salt in the wound, as we would say, is not just that you quote unquote betrayed, you know, the military, I mean, are lying and all that sort of stuff. But you, you know, you just mentioned you were a police captain, which is a considerable rank. And if, if I recall correctly from our discussion the other day, you because you went to Thailand, and you studied in in the RSPCA? You actually were promoted to captain before you completed your your training in in Myanmar. You were the first if I remember correctly, the first police officer to achieve this rank without actually completing that that training. Is that true?
Kyaw San Han 1:25:01
Yeah, so I wanted to explain from the beginning. So the police that had a chain program between the Amapola force and PT and Ryan time police RP T RTP. So it was, you know, the first program between two countries. So, the first class for me my police officer were very special. So they expanded on us, you know, to have a to improve our bilateral cooperation between two police officers. So the chief of police, the minister or Ministry of Home Affairs in Myanmar quarantine as that we will get a faster rank of quicker promotion than other Myanmar police officer because in Thailand, time police officer who complete riot police academy obviously they also get you know, their rank goes up time by time so they get higher rank Jia Jia. So compared to Myanmar portfolios, so a higher rank is very difficult for Reema police officer, but for four of us, we got first promotion before we joined RBC. And just after just completing IBC we got another round to start. So after three years, so we will get another rank, which is police cap day. But in 2018, I was in Australia, for my Master Degree in International Relations. That is why my promotion was postponed. And my head of division was not confident on me that I had a democracy mindset. I am not with their site. So they didn't give me that promotion. But when I returned Myanmar, now of course, my friends, they became precepting in 2018. So when I returned Myanmar, so in 2020, I became a police captain on the first October 2020, because it is Myanmar police force day. So to be police captain, the two star police officer must pass the DTS detective training school. But for me, I was attending that training course for six months. And I became a police captain during the training course. So I became a police captain before that is yes, Oh, and before my completion of training course. So it is very rare. And that is the first in your mouth police history. Which who has such qualifications? And then, yeah, the police, the head of training school of Cid, NSA. So now he also criticized me out lie on Facebook, and he was arrested. And he is in the prison so far. Unfortunately, the one who put three stars on my shoulders and TTS Cid and say
Brad 1:28:35
I'm curious, do you have an opinion of him? The person who promoted you do you? Did you have a different opinion of him on the day that he promoted you? And he gave you that third star? To the day that you saw him later in in Cid, or? Or did you know that he was he was very pro military from from the beginning? How was your relationship with him over time?
Kyaw San Han 1:29:08
So actually, he is a good man. He is Kyle. And he didn't like military coup. So that is why he wanted to show up his opinion, but he was afraid of getting arrested. Because next year, he are going he is going to retire. So he's nearly 60 years old. So just one year before finally, when he saw a video clip on Facebook, that the military personnel soldiers they drove and they hit the protester in Yangon. So when he saw the video clip, he cannot control his feeling to criticize the agenda. And we Jim, so he wrote to comments and Who someone who saw the commerce inform the chief of police. And he got arrested. Even he is senior police officer, Second Lieutenant Conner. But now he is in the prison. And I'm very sorry to hear that. So, that also fear the rest of police officer not to criticize gender may ally and regime. Yeah. So, that is why I knew that if I also criticize me or lie in Nima, I also get arrested. And for me, my head of division seriously threatened to me that he will pay me That is why I want to speak out a lot more like this. That is why I had to free Myanmar. And so, yeah, just my, because of my master degree study in Australia, supported by Australian government, I could have stronger democracy mindset, I could contribute to Providence shangani case, and I could stand up stand, I could stand up for democracy. Otherwise, I cannot dare you to stand up for democracy like this. I cannot tell you how to save providence and I live in Cid insei. Because my colleagues who completed IBC together, now they serve for the military of the suffered agenda, and regime. So now they are promoted, they were promoted to a higher rank for serving gender. So now they became police major. Yeah. So for me, I became the enemies and my family also under threat by the military regime. So just me one only, who stood up for democracy and opposite gender, because I got stronger democracy mindset, by the support of Australian Government. And I deeply appreciate that. So there is what I am proud of myself, my family, also proud of me, that I could contribute to the pro democracy in Myanmar.
Brad 1:32:18
So what from within the police force? You know, it sounds like the motivation is fear. The police, as you were describing them, the police sound like they don't like the military. They don't like the coup. But they're afraid. But at the same time, I know that you've also said that many of the senior officers in the police have come directly from the military. And also, and this is a this is the very important part. We have seen since the coup. We have seen police officers, murdering protesters on the street now. Yes, I know that in many cases. Those were not police officers. They were they were military wearing a police uniform. But in some cases, we have seen police shooting protesters on the street we have seen police beating civilians beating protesters on the streets, putting them in hospital. The question is, how many in the police truly believe in the military, and truly support the military and support the coup? And how many in the police are only doing what they are doing out of fear? And very important follow up? Is it possible to make these police so afraid of the military, that they would be willing to go into the street and to murder the protesters to protect their own lives? What is your assessment?
Kyaw San Han 1:34:00
So in my opinion, so since before the military coup, many policemen or police officer, they didn't like the military and agenda. So especially the young police officer who had higher read who transfer from the military, so they just use order to control Junior police officer, even the Ajam they don't care. They're senior, the real senior police officer or the older policemen. So if possible, if they had chance, they want to beside being a policeman. But the general leader made orders not to resign easily and not to not to run away. So there is a police law to prevent police. be upset. ran away or oppose the agenda. So fear, they always use to control your force. So after a military coup, even there were many police, men who wish to resign, who wish to oppose. But as you know, now military, so the gender leader, arrested many policemen, a police officer, including high level senior police officer in the present. So the rest of policemen, they don't want to take any risks to oppose the agenda. So they just go along with the agenda orders, even it is not fair. So, so, especially, but area police force, they are responsible to control the crowd. According to the international guidelines, mainly supported by the European countries EU, to reform the police force during the democratic government. So but whatever they tried, it was not used. So the military leaders, the gender leaders, they asked, they just gave the orders to arrest the protester to shoot the protest out with the rear bullet. So they just use fear to control the protester, not just police or military, but also civilians. So that is why sometimes they use their military personnel to wear a police uniform to shoot the protester. So, it is very complicated in the organization. So as a police, man, we knew that who is the real police, so even the military soldiers is wearing a police uniform, but his face, his behavior is different from the police. So we knew that, but we cannot do anything. That is the order from the general ledger. So what how many people he wants, he would, he would transfer military soldiers to police and not a police force organization, but also other ministry, other organizations in Myanmar, transfer from the military officers. So for policemen, they don't trust military, but they stay fear to oppose the agenda. That is why right now, after three years later, so good police man, they try to CDM they try to center for the democracy and the people of Myanmar, but the rest of police man. Now they don't want to take any risks, to stand up for democracy and people of Myanmar. So they just go along with the agenda, and all that. And the minority of policemen, they also want to have more power from the agenda. So now they can make more corruption from the civilians. So not the image of police force is very bad. Worse than before, it is not published a professional organization. So you're both gender. So this is just general regime, gender control organization.
Brad 1:38:48
With So, when we see footage, it's less these days. But when we we saw the footage in 2021 of the police, you know, beating civilians of the police shooting civilians. We you know, we know, as you said, as well that the police were killing people. We're torturing people in the prisons. We've heard stories of the police, you know, throwing dead bodies, off the roof, and then lying and saying, Oh, someone jumped off the roof when they torture them to death. My question to you is those police who did these things? Do you believe that those police were acting because they truly believed that they were doing the right thing? Or were they acting, killing torturing because they were afraid of the military.
Kyaw San Han 1:39:49
So firstly, policemen were brainwash by the Jenner leaders, like so we are protecting our country. We are Protecting our religion, and our people. So those who stand up for democracy are a threat to our country. They are our enemies. So we got all us from our senior police officer. And the senior police officer, they got order from the gender leaders that we have to arrest these protester, we can use any anything as we can. So they give us real bullet. They give us, you know, weapons, they give us authority to arrest these protests. So we can beat we can torture them. And no checkup. Check, no punishment. We won't know we won't, we won't receive any punishment by this machine. So if we could arrest the protester, and if we could investigate another protester, we will get a promotion. So that is what they give as incentive. Yeah, so something like offer. So if we serve for the agenda very well, we will get promotion easier and quicker than other police officer. So these police officer, they became very aggressive, because they just want to obey the orders from the senior police officer, and they get more promotion. And they became, they can get a good position. So maybe they can move to another police station, or wherever they want. So they can become a traffic police. You know, so some petroleum police, man, they just want to be a traffic police. So they obey the senior police officer order to get that kind of, you know, like, promotion, or maybe move him to another good organization. So, division, or department. So these Buddhist man, they had no mercy to civilians, they just want to get whatever they want. So you might see some video clips, that sample is officer, they beat civilians, and they took civilians belongings, no professional policemen or police officer. So for good police officer, they choose not to do like that. So if they have chest they it No. So for me, one iOS, be assigned as a security team leader. So I order my junior police officer to near police man, not to arrest protester just ignore them. Because we don't need to arrest them, and just pretend that we don't see them. And I took the real bullet with me. So I just give them can only for show. So they cannot shoot the protester. So that is it depends on the leader. So whenever we give the order to junior policemen, they did it. So even. We are not with them. If they have Ganz, they can shoot, because the authorities they receive from the higher police officer. So the best way is to take bullets from them. So they cannot shoot to the protester. easily, quickly. So, yeah, it depends on individual, I will say. So now, it is very obvious, very obvious to to see who is the a good police officer or who is a bad police officer, by their behaviors.
Brad 1:44:04
But so then the question is, did you ever because you you clearly went outside during the coup, you you were controlling your commanding your men, and you made these decisions, not to give them ammunition, not to arrest protesters. Were you ever given a military officer who was supervising you who was giving you orders who was embedded within your unit? Maybe someone who is wearing a fake uniform? Did you Did you ever have to deal with that personally? Or were you lucky enough that you never had to interact with the soldiers?
Kyaw San Han 1:44:43
So GA my security, Judy, so there were soldiers military officer who also cooperate with us, so they also patrol around our checkpoints. So we are standing We were at standby at our checkpoints. So they came to us and they asked the security team leader, what is happening around here? Did you arrest any protester? So I always say, No, it is nothing here. So no protests around here. So they just check another check twice. So, so for me, I always said no. And I always told them that there is nothing wrong around here. So including my senior police officer. So I always report back that we did. We didn't need to use any bullet because there was no protester. So, and in Naypyidaw, so since after, after Miata case, now to a current case, so there was no big protests in the Bido, because people they were afraid of getting shoot by the security police forces. So yeah, I was fortunate that I didn't see a big crowds, a big protest group, but individually a protester, I could ignore them. And I could report back that there was nothing serious or nothing. There was no protester. So it was fortunate for me and the protester to.
Brad 1:46:29
So you specifically mentioned Miata chi. So for those who, who are not aware, or who may have forgotten the other two kind, generally considered to be the the first matter of the revolution, and she was she was shot in the head. In a protest in Ecuador, if I remember correctly, it was the 10th of February 2021. Yeah, ninth, ninth, ninth of February, and she was put on life support. She was actually wearing a motorcycle helmet at the time. But she was put on life support and she was declared brain dead. About a week later. The the killing was actually recorded on video. It became a very famous piece of footage. The person who shot her, I have heard rumors, I wanted to check with you. Is it true that the person who shot her was actually a soldier wearing a police uniform?
Kyaw San Han 1:47:27
So at the time, I was the in DTS, Cid, insane Yangon. So the location, which that case happened, it is where I already pass on to go to my office. So the vehicle, yeah, it is. So he was just behind the bus stop. But she got shot in the head. And it was not clear that who really shot her. So it could be a military soldier who wearing the police uniform, because he saw because she was not in the protest group. So she was just hiding behind the bus door. So she there, there is no way to shoot her, you know, because it was it was ridiculous. To shoot like that, especially using the via bullet was ridiculous. So there are many way to go to control. The protest grew in peace way. That is what European Union has supported me my poly force to control the crowd with the international guidelines. But, you know, the military leaders, the general leaders, they gave authorities to shoot the protester because they want that they want to destroy the protest group. They don't want to see any image like this, especially this image, one on social media. So the whole war, the war can see what happened in Myanmar. So the general leader may online always wanted to show the world that the majority of NUMA people equate military coup. So there is no demonstration in Myanmar. So that is what he wanted to do see. So he order the security forces to use fear as quickly as possible to destroy the protester. So that is why the junior police man, we had motivation in the junior police officer. They had motivation by the senior police officer to shoot the protester to arrest or to torture them because they don't get any punishment. Instead, they get promotion They get another incentive for their profession for their job. That is why, yeah, even peaceful protests they use very. How can I say violence to destroy the protest as quickly as possible. So once I arrived back to Nibi door, I saw that video clip I knew that about that. That is why I decided not to use any bullets with the protester not to arrest any protester. And I could do that.
Brad 1:50:39
Because, I mean, the things that we saw throughout 2021 and early 2022 I mean, those things were were horrific. I mean, we've seen people who have lost arms to grenades that were thrown. We've seen children, you know, three years old, killed because the police were shooting bullets into houses. You know, the sheer, irresponsible violence is is difficult to even comprehend. But turning then to to you, like you find yourself in this situation, you you are looking around, and you go, Okay, this is not acceptable. I cannot be part of this. My life is under threat. My family's lives are under threat. So you escaped to Thailand. But because you're in the police, you don't have a passport. So, how did you how did you manage to escape with your family? Yes,
Kyaw San Han 1:51:45
it was very difficult for me and my family, because every government official in Myanmar cannot do a normal passport, which can travel abroad. So we are not allowed to make a normal passport with a red color. So we have to have green color official passport only. And we must have office a duty to travel abroad for a meeting or training course. So we can go travel or we can travel abroad. At the time only we can receive our official passport. After that we have to return our official passport quickly back to the police headquarters. So for me after my study in Australia, so to all the 20 I had to return my passport to the Police Headquarter. So after that, there were no meetings abroad because of COVID operate. So we had online meeting instead. So we didn't go foreign countries and I didn't get the official passport. So I was trying to find a way to travel abroad officially. So finally, I could apply for my postgraduate study in Thailand, a scholarship for my postgraduate study in Thailand. And I could go to Thailand officially in May 2022. So that is what I was trying confidentially. So before that before I leave Myanmar, my insignia police officer, chief of police, the minister Ministry of Home Affairs, they seriously threatened to me that we didn't want you to study abroad, but we want to show the war, the ASEAN countries and the world that we had cooperation with ASEAN countries are international, because the whole world so especially Western countries, put pressure on gender male ally, had international relations. So China mainly wanted to show the world that okay, we send our police officer to international training like this. That is why they send me to Thailand. Of course, they won't send me to West dance, because no training is offered by the Westerners after a military coup. So they told me they threatened me that okay, if I'm stood out for democracy, even if in Thailand, I will be arrested easily and depose sent back to Myanmar quickly and my passport was restricted travel in Asia only. So I have two restrictions. One official passport is difficult to apply for visa. Second. So in my passport there is a state match that I can travel in Asia only. So, it is very, it is impossible to apply for a visa to western country. So, they knew that as long as I am in Asia, I can I, they can arrest me easily. So they can can be back easily. So, finally, with this official passport, I could come to Japan, and I became a conversion refugee in Japan. So,
Brad 1:55:31
just want to clarify, did you become a refugee in Japan? Or did you apply for refugee status before you went to Japan. So, when
Kyaw San Han 1:55:38
I was in Thailand, I tried to approach the UNHCR, Thailand, but finally, I had to come to Japan and I had to apply for refugee status in Japan by myself. So, in Thailand, you might know that the UNHCR Thailand has some restrictions to save Myanmar refugee to the country. So, they that is also an important case for Myanmar refugees in Thailand, because they cannot go to the country. So including my family. Now, even we request that we have been requesting UNHCR, Thailand, but the USD the as the not that easy. So that is why Yeah, I applied for a visa. And I came to Japan by myself. I apply for refugee by myself. I didn't have any experience or anyone know in Japan. So i I wish to free to Australia where I was supported by the Australian Government for my master's degree study. But in April 2022. So just okay, I would mention about at the beginning of 2022, the Australian Government provided protection visa to CDM military personnel. So me online was so angry about that. That is why Min Aung Hlaing I didn't release Professor Sean Turnell and one Australian government request me ally, especially in April 2022, Australian Ambassador in Yangon, Min Aung Hlaing, and then requested to release profile as shown today. But may ally threaten us really understand that if Australian government provide protection visa to CDM military personnel, he won't release Professor Sean Turnell. So before that, a Myanmar police officer who received Australian Award Scholarship, she didn't return to Myanmar. So that made me really angry with that case, so I knew about that, since I was in Police Headquarter. That is why I was patiently waiting for provisional release to flee to Australia. However, my visa was refused, unfortunately, to Australia, so I had to come to Japan and apply for refugee visa in Japan.
Brad 1:58:33
And that's very unfortunate. And I think, you know, because I live in Australia, so I find it very, very unfortunate that Australia has not done as much as I believe in as many people believe Australia could have done and should have done. But I know that Australia has contributed I know that Australia has made changes. But But speaking in a personal sense, not less professional sense. I do feel that Australia has fallen short of of her potential and her ethical obligations in this case. But
Kyaw San Han 1:59:09
so for me, I always appreciate Australian government who supported me to get stronger democracy mindset, and I wish for a democracy in Myanmar like Australia. You know, this is very suitable democracy in Myanmar. And the Prophet Asana release was one of my may priorities. So because I evolved in his case, deeply, that is what I knew that I was so worried about him until he will his release, you know, his reunion with his family. So something like mission accomplished for me when I heard his release, and then I had to flee Thailand quickly after his release. So Even though I cannot free to Australia, but I still believe that Australian Government will save my family to Australia, when Australian Government knows about my story, so, I'm still requesting Australian Government to save my family to Australia at the moment
Brad 2:00:19
mean, hopefully, hopefully they will do that. But nevertheless, you, you've made it to Japan, you're in a position where you are able to advocate. Can you tell us a little bit about the activism that you have done? Since you've left Myanmar? What have you been doing to try and raise awareness and how have you been trying to bring about success in the revolution.
Kyaw San Han 2:00:52
So, firstly, once I arrived in Japan, I contact a NUG Japan office and I collaborated with a new Japan office to to oppose the agenda, mainly to stop dictatorship in Myanmar. So, I gave my speech in the parliament in Japan, so, I give many interviews to Japanese media, so to speak out about the brutality of a gender male lie he is he is not a he shall not be supported. So, for Japanese government, also should not support China may ally. And I also spit out not to try the military police force, and also to try CDM for the military personnel and the police officer. So now you can see more so after my speech, my after my speak out video interview, so there were more police officer who joined CDM or military personnel who joined CDM or who suddenly when they had no choice, so, I am trying to destroy the gender, military and police force. So we gym, because they are bad to our civilian. So now Min Aung Hlaing cannot get a new recruit us to protect Min Aung Hlaing and the regime. So now he just as you know, release this conscription, force military service. So, as much as I can, I am speaking out to add the digital ship in Myanmar. So, so there were made, so democracy activities in Japan. So I also participated in these activities. And what what I can, what I can do is that to speak out, not to try CDM for military personnel, and not to become a new recruit for men that may apply for junta, Min Aung Hlaing so yeah, I believe that my voice is strong enough to shape to give my message to my to Myanmar people, and especially the forces in Myanmar. Because my police officer, they knew about me very well. And they get motivation from me, like someone who came from a normal police man became a police captain by the age of 30. And receive international studies. So, so they wanted me to be a chief of police in the future. So I also wish to be a chief of police in the future. So I could change the bullet force more than before. So I share democracy mindset when I was in Myanmar. So especially in the plice training school, so I share human rights and democracy mindset to police officer, to me, my police officer, yeah. So excellent.
Brad 2:04:36
And so what is that message is that this is I think, the the crux of our interview, what is it that you are trying to say to them what are you trying to convince them of? What do you think that you can say or do that is going to help to to weaken the military?
Kyaw San Han 2:04:58
So my message to the government to the world leaders, especially the democratic governments is not to support that data may have lie, because he has no mercy to Myanmar people, he is a bad guy, he he, his digital ship should be add as quickly as possible, because as we know, Nima people are suffering a lot. So, this is the end game, and this is the right time to support Myanmar democracy. So, I would like to request the democratic governments to support Myanmar democracy more than before. So now you can see the gender male lie and regimes are failing. Now, they are using the brooder solution or study strategy, strategy strategy. Yeah, so they, they are going to key many people more than before to maintain their power. So they don't care how many people die because of them, but they will stay using their best strategy. So this dealership should be an quickly. So for the Myanmar people, I, I was based in speaking out and request not to try the mayor live. And we Jim. And for the Myanmar police officer, and the military personnel, I urge them to join the CDM. So they don't, they will not be killed by the opposition in the front line, so they can surrender. So this is the best solution. You have to we can mean me on my agenda, and amela and regime. Military? Yeah.
Brad 2:07:05
And what is it that people outside can do because you, you seem to have escaped, this is something that we that we see quite a lot. We see soldiers and police both some of them defect to the PDF, or the CDM. Some of them just leave and off the border or go internationally, we've seen police units that have defected and just gone or deserted, and I've just gone to India, or that I've gone to Thailand. The from statistics that I've seen the military's losses in the majority are people who left the many people have died, but they are losing a lot of people who just want to leave. But you didn't have a passport. And the only way you were even able to escape and escape with your family is because you had this this opportunity for study which not many people do, what can be done to make it easier for police and for the military to leave, if they if they want to leave if they want to no longer be part of this genocidal dictatorship, what can we do to make that possible for them?
Kyaw San Han 2:08:33
Yeah, absolutely, that is very it important. So, firstly, you know, our safety, our family safety are very important to free the general regime. So, there are some telegram channels by the energy and national unity government who have the CDM police officer or military personnel. So, they can bring the CDM police officer to an armed groups area for their safety or otherwise they can bring them to the border areas. So especially Thai border area, so now you might know that there are many CDM military personnel are hiding in border areas. So mainly and mostly they do not have proper documentation. They have no passport. And now passport is very important to travel abroad. So including me, I got refused. I got a visa refuse and by the Australia because of the official passport because of my statement in travel in Asia only statement in my passport, so I felt very sad. Like I would judge by that passport. So, my background and my, what I my contribution were even more important than that passport, but I didn't give a. So I found a solution that I could come to Japan. But for those who didn't have who do not have passport, now, they have to stay illegally in neighboring country. So, I would like to request the neighboring countries, the government are seeing governments not to send these refugees back to Myanmar. So not to arrest them unfairly, because they are not criminals. So, for example, when I was in Thailand, I saw a news that some CDM Navy officer were arrested in Malaysia and sent back to Myanmar. So once they arrived back to the airport, in Yangon, they were arrested included their family now in the prison, and we don't know they are fade, they are conditioned in prison. So, so please, please Hanuman refugees, who already arrived in different country, including in Japan or in Thailand or in India. So, that is the humanitarian assistance to Myanmar refugees. So, the main problem maker is to the male line and reach him once they are removed. If there is no male line, or they are brutal regime, Myanmar can be a peaceful country. Like, you know, in the past, we were a peaceful country, a strong country, a rich country. But since the gender leaders and demonstrate our country, we became one of the poorest country in the war, poverty by economy, lack of good food accommodation every day. So now Myanmar people suffer a lot. So if we don't add this teacher ship, right now, the people of Myanmar will suffer more and more. So, that is why we focus on the digital ship, the we focus on in any digital ship, did it a male lie and regime. So I believe that the democratic governments can do it together to save Myanmar, and to save my democracy.
Brad 2:12:49
Excellent. And hopefully this will, will happen very soon. It seems that the revolution is succeeding. And and all of the the experts that we've interviewed recently have agreed that the revolution is succeeding. But we've covered a lot of craft, we've covered a lot of different things today. And I am really grateful to have you on not only because of the things that you've accomplished, and because of the courage, and most of them courage, I think, moral fortitude, that you have shown in your career, and your dedication to your principles. But also because understanding the police force is very difficult for us. The Myanmar police do not work like police that we are accustomed to in the West. And many people will never know will never see the the culture inside the police force, the culture of abuse and exploitation that happens within the police training, the the impact that the military has on the administration of policing in Myanmar. These are our vital insights, especially after the things that we saw the police doing after the coup, because I'm very grateful that you can share your time with us and that you can explain these things to us. Yes,
Kyaw San Han 2:14:20
I also feel very grateful that I have a chance to share my sensitive story to share my background, my profession and about my family. So hopefully, people around the war can hear my voice can understand my message that everything happened in Myanmar the brutality is made bind that dictator Min Aung Hlain and brutal regime only since the past and 10 now so Whenever you see a bad new in Myanmar, especially during the democratic government, so, the people around the war thought that our democratic government is responsible for that crisis that conflict, but actually the military that gender leaders they made it happen. So, they are problem makers, they had no mercy. So, I would like all of you understand the brutality of Myanmar junta Min Aung Hlaing and regime him until right now. So, it is obvious right now, he is using his last strategy to make civilians fight each other. So, please, also share my voice and my message to your friends to your family and everyone you know, so to know more about Myanmar, so, if there is no digital Myanmar and his brutal regime, Myanmar will be a beautiful a peaceful country in the war as we used to be in the past. So, now people of Myanmar are suffering a lot from the dictator Min Aung Hlaing, but people of Myanmar we are kind we are very friendly. So, now we need help from all of us from all of you. So, please help us more and more for our life and for our democracy restoration in Yama. So please do not know to have as an please also speak out about Myanmar democracy. So that is what I would like to give. This is my message that I would like to give all of the listeners.
Host 2:17:10
Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. As regular listeners are aware, we often remind our audience about our nonprofit mission Better Burma at the end of the show. Truth be told, fundraising is hard work. And I can personally attest the fact that it's really no fun to keep asking for contributions. Yet the situation on the ground now in Myanmar is so distressing that we continue to do so on behalf of the Burmese people. What is most helpful at this time are recurring donations, which help alleviate both the stress and time involved in fundraising. If you are able to pledge a certain amount per month, our team can plan around having at least a consistent minimum amount to work within each month. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission Better Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search Better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at betterburma.org. That's Better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar, available at alokacrafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also are not nonprofits wide or mission that's aloka crafts, spelled A L O K C R A F T S one word alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.