Transcript: Episode #273: Caught in the Crossfire
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:21
On this episode of The Insight Myanmar podcast, we're bringing you something special, a behind the scenes look at the Fourth International Conference on Burma Myanmar studies, held in August 2024 at Chiang Mai University's Regional Center for Social Science and Sustainable Development. This event tackled some of Myanmar's most critical challenges, ongoing conflicts, peace processes, human rights and the impact of the 2021 coup. It was all about fostering research, dialog and advocacy for sustainable solutions. Now here's where it gets interesting. We were given exclusive access to the conference and even an office on site allowing us to record brief on the spot interviews with attendees. These interviews are different from our usual long form episodes. As we conducted 10 minute grabs that cover a broad range of topics, we were able to reach out to a total of 18 different guests, all of which we're bringing to you in this four part series. A quick note, since we were recording right at the heart of the conference, you might hear some background sounds from the event itself. Our sound engineers work their magic to clean things up, but the audio quality may feel a bit different than our studio interviews. In any case, we hope that this just adds to the authenticity of the experience. And with that, let's get into the talks that Follow. This episode is the first in the series.
Aung Zaw 2:02
Today ah, this is Anzo. I'm the founder and chief editor of the at the ALD publication. Think to make it short, it's not very fair to the long history of our work. But I mean, 8819 88 people came and I became journalists, a reporter, and then I would allow a life as I was not easy. A lot of challenges was in terms of securities and legal status. Then 2010 we went back. And slowly going back, we were the only one news group that news publication that held back having a wonderful in and one foot out strategy, quite famous, sometimes infamous with the international donors, because everybody rushing, everybody rushing in as a gold rush, digging the gold mine inside the country, and We were very careful and conscious. And why? Because we couldn't trust the military that we gradually went in completely full blown operation inside the country. Then we were back here after the crude in 2021 so this is Second Life ASA for most of us, most of us, but me, is different by minus and they hear Thailand, but we come and go all the time. But the point is, this is a life and exile for most of the reporters. Come back here. We settle again, forced to leave much more, I think, much more more challenges. But good thing is, because of our experience in the past here in Thailand, so you have, we have built a system and infrastructures that help people to come and we can fail them to continue to work, get information. I mean, without any gap, no tiny gap, that even what. Are difficulty we face in terms of security challenges, cybersecurity challenges, location challenges, funding challenges, funding challenges and result challenges, whatever we had, I don't think there's no not a one single day that we closed on because due to these challenges there's no gap in feeding the stories people inside, outside the country, even until today.
Host 5:33
So you mentioned some of these challenges that you faced post coup, especially in how your organization was set up to know how to deal with them and respond what? How would you characterize some of the bigger challenges that you've had to face in the past few years, perhaps something that wasn't expected?
Aung Zaw 5:51
Well, there are quite a number of you name it. One is the stuff we have invested in them, and when they came out to have them resettle here or set up here, it's a big challenges for them. As I mentioned earlier, that security challenges, because at the time with the covid time and this lockdown, we had a code in our country.
So we have a code in our country, and so that carried them to the safer place. Is very challenging. We've never done it. Plus the families are leaving. Families had to leave, and in the past, life, our first life in insured, we don't we did not have to think about families, because single people work and continue to go no matter what. Families are under threat, but they are not being thrown into prison because of connection. But noun is the families are in danger. Whoever involves a connection with us or with the other organization, the position, and they are in serious danger. So that's the problem. So we have to take care of the extra, extra, like people, and that's a nightmare. The big another second, and it's nightmare because of our infrastructure is there here, but it's small to absorb that such a number of people come in or came to us. And as the second is that the cybersecurity things are they because of the monitoring from the regime, and the most sophisticated way, the way that monitor they can harm the those reporters who remain inside the country, or those who are reasoning higher or or continue to work, or wanted to join such an exciting career, even though the pay is so modest, so modest, then they, you know, they want to try, and they want to continue to it's not because of the carrier, it's because they want to tell stories.
Aung Zaw 8:11
So to keep them safe, also another challenge, and so we have a lot of cyber security issues, I had to have a lot of trainings with the people inside and outside to let them understand, because this is the area that we are reaching people. And the psychological warfare department intelligence, they are the one who can penetrate from there and get the information and flush out the people and get rid of them arrested. So this is a second issue. The third issue is, I think that security issues, but thanks to Thailand, I mean, it's always been in terms of humanitarian. Thailand has always been very soft, and we and have you can find a more human face in this country. If you are in Agile, in our saturation situation, in in Germany or in London, you might have a different kinds of restrictions and imposed on you. But now is because of the the apparent flexibility, whatever you call it here, that you know you you set it up be here at the same time you have something, sometimes you have a legal issues to making sure that your staff are safe and secure. These are the things that we have. And the fourth one is much more daunting, because of the regime, use a connection to make a threat against me and certain individuals in office, because we publish such a such a story. Some exposes, and they actually reach out to their connection, their network here in Thailand, and trying to harass me and trying to intimidate or even some kind of theory of assassination two years ago.
Host 10:21
That's heavy. So this was a threat or an attempt,
Aung Zaw 10:26
I would say that. So the attempt,
Host 10:32
Do you take precautions now, as a result,
Aung Zaw 10:35
At that time, yes, I got a warning from a certain security officer, also embassies inside telling me that I have to really be careful of my status and my security status. There I took that pre question,
Host 10:54
What? How would you describe the role of independent, objective journalism during this time of extended conflict and turmoil in the country.
Aung Zaw 11:06
I think the journalism, first of all, the journalism in our in our department, sorry, in our country, is don't pay well and you have a risk of going to prison or death today, if you look at it, so there's no incentive. We say that. So I think a lot of people who work in a team or other independent medias, I think a lot of committed people, professional ones, who are passionate about work and committed both politically and professionally, even though they are not political parties or members and they really commit to this, this professional, because this profession, because of they, They want to feel that their messenger, carrying the news, should let the people around the globe, or even in even in their own country, to have access to such a quality important information. I think, I think that's a key, key point. I think of the can say for Yao D that continue to work and survive in this in this environment, and also politically, I mean this, Yao D is always committed to democracy and human rights and democracy and freedom and press freedom and federal union. So we are very much political. I'm not ashamed to admit that, and that's how the character of the Burmese independent media. We have Association, association no to not association to the political organizations or political parties or agile governments, opposition. No, we are not. We're very much independent in terms of making sure that we are detached from this organization. Always been critical of them in the past 30 years as well. I got threat from these opposition members as well in the past. So we are very proud of that, and our contents, our our contents, our products. But also, I think after 30 years of as a founder, having this running it, they already issue, if you if we don't have, if we don't have a in this movement, in this time, as in your as your question indicated, if there's no independent media, what would that be? Right? So we have to think about it. So I think actually, you're not going to become a millionaire for working for the news independent AZ media organization anyway. So I think it's really committed very political and thought leadership and remain a trusted source, and we all work hard on that. It's not easy to run independent media organizations, not only because of threats or intimidation, so security issues, but also, there are so many challenges we have have, but also, we're very proud of our work. It's really frustrating to continue sometime tough. I feel it's really tough to keep, keep working on it. But, you know, think of our audiences or. Inside, go outside. Diaspora, whatever the comments they are sending us, letters really encouraging. It's sweet and such joyful. You know, letters that they have written and living in this, you know, in darkness, you will need information. They want to analysis. They want to they don't want to bullshit. They want really, want to hear the straightforward what's happening in their own country. So we never had such a we had such a feedback. But this time is tremendous. For last four years, unstoppable that they come in to us and the more support. And that's that's great, so we think of them often, and also to our partners and whoever make it. You know, support to us, and it's important, because without them, it's hard to survive. You know, we know we're not New York Times or CNN, or, you know, commercial publication. We will specialize in a particular such a particular area, only call it, I mean, with the cost, with the cost. What what cost? What the cost to promote the liberation of the country? You know, I'm not ashamed to say that maybe media is sometimes bit the me, but media should be neutral and object. I think, I think these are cliche, and the media is part of it in this movement, but still very independent, still very vital, very, you know, professional, the way that they we, I mean, particularly for the already the team members were with us for more than five to 10 years and with us, with me, with me For 20 years, even if they retire, nothing, left, nothing, no benefit, nothing, So they keep working. So I think it's admirable. We
Dr. Mar Mar Gyi 17:20
Um, my name is Maki mamachi, and I'm well known as stepdama, and I'm from I'm interning, former Interim Director of International general study at University of Oxford. I'm born and bred in Burma. So
Host 17:43
you have just published a book. Congratulations. You have a book launch and tell us about the name of the book and what it's about.
Dr. Mar Mar Gyi 17:50
So the book is called invisible yet invincible women who they narratives of unsung heroes who who fight against dictators. So that is a book on collection of women stories. We have interview under Tanaka gender decadal, which is formally called the Oxford Tanaka International. So we work with our women in work gender, but more like Claire, we have. Our team is made up, made up of professors from university and anthropologists who are CDMS and women MPs, so and so. We have a team working for research, and we interview hundreds of them that encourage women, MPs, PDF, women who are working for IDPs, and also captain who deserted army, and also medical professionals who are in the ITP camp at the moment and providing medical, food and humanitarian assistance. We also included three University professor who actually joined the CDN and stay in CDN for four years already. So we select 10 of them in this book.
Host 19:23
What are some takeaways from your research and writing that you would like to leave our listeners with? So
Dr. Mar Mar Gyi 19:31
I am trained anthropologist, but gender focused, but I'm also documentary filmmaker. So one is also we have exhibition here, and the exhibition focused on we call war women's ancestry history. And we are also doing war women or histories, what people assume that. This gender, or feminism, is introduced by the West, Western feminist enlightening Burmese women. But actually that if you look further, you will see there were feminist movement sufficient. We did not have a feminist movement per se, but it kind of movement and many movement. The reason is that a lot of people think that there are no feminist movement in Myanmar, so in Burma. So Burmese women are little bit behind, actually, not because if you compare to Burmese women in the 19th century, 18th century in the West, Burmese women have more right than their sister in the West, for example, under the in Victoria era, right, Burmese women have rights to rights to earn the money, rights to own the property, right to merits, right to divorce like an also so right to inheritance, unlike women in the West. So for example, right? Like I know, we all know Victorian gender goals of how women are oppressed, how they have surrenders their boy, but their properties to their husband. In the West, in Myanmar, that's not the case. So for example, right? Burmese, marriage is civil. We don't need judge or lawyer, so issue us the a woman in that era didn't marry with a lawyer or monk. At present, she will say, what for I'm not marrying judge or monk I met, in addition, I want to marry someone. That's my trait. So actually, they like and they also, you know, like a trade in Myanmar was to be there by the Burmese woman, right? Like, you know. So there is a traditional way of marriage. Is that so simple? If as long as women stay with the man that is a legal wife, so she can have half the properties or work of him, you know, again, if she devotes then she can be married. So, you know, this kind of thing. You know, women already had it. And another Western writers who visited in Myanmar Burma in 18 I said you wrote about these women, right? Like they know, but of course, not in a way that favorably, because that's the reason that men are becoming gay, right? Gonna be? That's why it's like, you know, men need to learn. You're not gonna step up Be a man. So this kind of Victorian norms, aware, we're taught, to Burmese, Burmese main nationalist, so they actually Burmese mates are better than that's why I say at that time when Burmese women married to westerners or non Burmese and they lost all the rights because they never married with The judge, or they never, they never married at the church or at the present of an government official, right? So that, like in a Burmese woman marriage, even though, customarily, she has legal rights if she married to none a non Burmese, she lost a lot of them. So actually, that these kind of things that, when you're looking at I said, like how colonization has exploited, like in a Burmese woman and pushed down the right of Burmese women. So if you look at it, like in Burma, is the only one country in the world, Burmese woman rights has been pushed down by colonialism, nationalism, militarism. So that's like, I know, you know, they are pushing down. So to the extent that now people think that, you know, published women never had a movement, women right movement, right? And also, there's a new subjective movement, because in history, even though there were women activists, political prisoners, Syria must in the past, and female soldiers, and also women in World War Two, there were enlightened Burmese women who fought World War Two with generous steward right, generous deal. World was included by Burmese women, and yet all of their history has been wiped out. So when you ask today, people will say that, well, there's a Burmese women heart, never involved in politics or leadership, so like, I guess, justification, another one also, Burmese used cultural prescription. For example, Burmese believe that men and women are born differently. For example, men are born with home on their right shoulder. What is a pole? So in other words, like they believe that men are born with innate, spiritual, supreme. The over women. So that means that women are inferior at birth. So that means that also justification of men have more supercharged power. They are more logical, they are more intelligent. So they could be they have to be leader, not a woman. So there's a justification is throughout even now, in the revolution, the war had witnessed women dominated. These protests, the supreme revolution, and women are now in four years, then women are 60% in the revolution, and yet, looking at nug opposition government, they have 70, 80% male dominated. So women are still fighting for, like a kind of even 30% coord minimum standard of Guru. So actually, and also at the moment, like, you know, masculinization, militarization of masculinities, toxic masculinity, if you call it. And at the frontier, break case increase. And because of is that even men involved in this revolution doesn't mean that they they, even if they are fighting for change, they also have a like, I know, cultural love that they carry so they continue so and also, here is also one thing, that men are also product of this system, right? So actually, that you know when we are looking to address gender based violence, sexual violence in Myanmar, of course, this is like, okay, not any military society. Sexual Violence is increased in Myanmar is because of the poem and all the other stuff, history, history of colonization, nationalism, militarization, structural violence of gender. You know, again, are embedded by these process and need to be addressed and understood, because women rights or leadership will not come if we don't address group causes of structural issues that already make people justify, you know, like in their cultural system. So, so advoca is about, we are three days after the coup I set up from Oxford, the Oxford Tanaka, Jannah, jakato. So that's like, on a space that I want to focus on highlight now, like just about a woman right, woman leadership, I want to book more deeper layer or structural issues so that has been in our in our team. We have a women MPs team member, we said, and also when we have a anthropologist professor, CDN professor, who have been working, who work as a professor at the University in Myanmar for 22 years to 2333 years, they all work in our group as a as a researcher, senior researchers and young people. So we are doing intergenerational intersession and dialogic education, so addressing that like, I know, creative thinking. So for example, we have a debate book club, you know, book club, we we discuss about this thing.
And we also have a debate in trying to create dialogic creative education that is a kind of and to produce school, produce knowledge, and disseminate and replicate new knowledge so that like kind of this concept of justice, equality, democracy, and you don't just fight for and demand from where You have to also practices while you're fighting against dictators. You need to practice this kind of thing, like you need to start to trying to analyze your own unconscious bias, but also at that included, you know, women activists should not exclude men like and we should include a man as well, you know? So they said together that create just because society. But at the moment, as the book is today, we are launch of this book, getting quite a good feedback, and we will have another book coming out, and I'm working on scholars of spring revolution, Gender Education and applying anthropology six after the coup. So these are the women. But also second book will come. Third part will come up is women and pigs, annual ladies. So that is, and also semicon women's women's native and others. So yeah, we go. We are doing like, you know, something that so trying to build soft power, but also bring it back in the past history, what happened? Like, you know, and that included religious misogynist or patriarchy, right? Like, I know how much religious breaching or production are accurate, right? Like I. Know, where does misogynist or patriarchy, you know, who say what? Why are the evidence right? Like, I know, so this kind of thing, because it is suddenly, as you see, Burma is Buddhist country, the violence is extreme, right, like in a suit based violence extreme. So we cannot just practice a losing and follow the preaching. We need to actually analyze, you know, kind of the two authentic, genuine Buddhism. And also, like, I know, practice applying Buddhism. So the like, there's a sustainable, sustainability of equality will exist you.
Katie Julian 31:04
Hi. I'm Katie Julian from Motu education. We have been working on Myanmar higher education issues for the last 13 years, and I'm delighted to be able to participate in this conference. Our organization was founded in 2013 by a range of educators with years of experience working on higher education in Myanmar, particularly in the non formal, or should I say, non state higher education sector, in recognition of the fact that high schools and universities have not been accessible to everybody from Myanmar and have not perhaps served the needs of the community development sector. We decided to focus on the independent or ethnic run post secondary education sector, and what we do is develop textbooks, curriculum and training programs for those for those people.
Host 32:07
Can you describe how your work changed through the years? Because you've been in Myanmar for some time. We knew each other as we just referenced this conversation, way back when, 15 years ago, long before the transition. So you've been there before the transition. During the transition now post coup, you're working with, particularly with ethnic communities that have had their own trajectory and history. So through an educational lens, what changes have you seen through these years?
Katie Julian 32:36
Well, probably the most significant change was the wider availability of internet, which was a massive game changer for a lot of people in in Myanmar, prior to about 2009 2010 nobody could afford mobile phones, and internet was slow dialog. Now it's much more widely accessible. And for educators, this has proven invaluable, and it's so frustrating how internet outages are causing problems for because, you know, so we have, although we we produce paper textbooks, we also now have got an online platform, remoto.org, if anyone's looking, and we're able to supplement our books and learning and learning resources with all kinds of links to the internet, and that just gives people much, much wider exposure to the sorts of ideas they're interested in, encourages Much more self directed study, which is what the partners we are working with are largely aiming for.
Host 33:46
Can you share following the coup, the nature of the particular challenges you've had to deal with in your line of work, and how you've had to transform your platform to meet those challenges?
Katie Julian 33:57
Well, the main thing we had to do was be a little bit more subtle with some of the more controversial materials that we had been producing that perhaps might attract negative attention. So we we still have those available, however, we just don't promote and publicize them. That, and that would include things like gender, which, for some reason, the people currently occupying the country don't really want anyone to know about. So we've had to, basically, from covid onwards, we've had to put a lot more of activities online, which, I mean, I love going and meeting our partner schools and spending time with them when I do when we do trainings and meetings and yeah, doing it on Zoom is just not as satisfying and not as informative. The post secondary sector has, has expanded now there are very few. Some adequate opportunities for formal education. So everybody has just had to, has just come up with alternatives from most of the ethnic colleges that we're working with have had an influx of people from outside their traditional constituencies. There are a ton more community based initiatives set up in IDP camps, in on the border areas, and then just little community schools, a teacher, maybe a CDM teacher, who just says, what I'm going to keep on teaching my thing, and sets up a school for people around them or online. And we're we will work with anybody who is not affiliated with anything bad.
Host 35:54
I recall from our time, many years ago, one of the things that really impressed me about the projects you were involved in is the ways that you were trying to make the educational curriculum relative and in Myanmar especially, this is such a powerful thing because it's it's the nature of that time, especially as it was closed off, that to be able to learn through a curriculum, learn a language in a subject through a manner that was very relevant to your life and context. This was very powerful. And as you've gone on to work on curriculum design and such, and working with ethnics, I'm sure that one of the that, that one of the challenges you had to work with was not just international materials that weren't relevant, but this issue of burmanization. And so can you talk about the nature of how burmanization plays out in public school curriculum, slash propaganda, and for those listeners who might not be familiar with it, and what you tried to do with your curriculum to present education in a different
Katie Julian 36:56
way, it's An interesting challenge to make context appropriate curriculum for context that are themselves very diverse. So what if we write, for example, our history histories module. We want it to be broad enough to incorporate a wide range of perspectives, so that anyone who is teaching it can get what they want out of it. So we try to have more of a skills focus than a knowledge focus. So for example, the history one, it's a lot of analyzing source documents. And if you can analyze a source document, you can choose your own sources that you want to research. For example, a school from schon state has taken our histories module, which is called histories of Burma, and transformed it into histories of Burma and schon state, using the same sort of methodology used in our material to apply it to a range of source, a range of issues and sources within child state, which is what they want to focus on. That's great. We love hearing about people doing things like that with our materials. Yeah, most of the stuff we write is sort of Adult Basic. So an introduction to federalism, an introduction to Research Skills. We're not trying to replace higher level university courses. We're just trying. What we would like to do is ensure that people who want to go on to study these in more detail will have a basic working knowledge of the key principles and how to apply them to their own situations and communities.
Host 38:38
Great. So looking at the field of education in general, in Burma historically, leading to today, you talked about the challenges that are obviously there, but the incredible, often very informal ways that sometimes just single individuals are going to fill those gaps in needs. So how would you now, three years plus since the coup has happened, and a lot of formal structures being in various states of of of collapse or inadequacy. How would you characterize some of these informal initiatives that are coming and perhaps becoming less informal as time goes on and starting to become structures in their own right?
Katie Julian 39:18
Big question, yeah, I mean, one could talk about some bravery and resilience and such terms that characterize how the people of Burma have responded to the coup. Basically every, everybody I know, does what they can. The sector is very under resourced, as are most other there needs to be more money. People are doing what they can with what they've got, but often they're constrained by not being able. Pay Teachers, for example, big problem or not being able to replace their school buildings. So you see a wide range of innovative workarounds so well, for example, teachers will look for other ways to make money while they can still keep on serving their students. School buildings, all kinds of things will serve as a school building. Yeah, there's limitless stories of extremely interesting responses to terrible situations.
Host 40:41
What have you learned about the way that education has taken shape in IDP and refugee camps?
Katie Julian 40:49
Again, it's basically a matter of, here's what we need to do, here's what we want to achieve. What's the gap? How can we best work to fill that gap. For example, if you have students who would like to go on to study at an international university, the schools will perhaps develop partnerships with Thai or international universities to try to make that happen. That requires resources. If if you don't have any teaching resources, you can contact various not just Motu. There are also other groups in Myanmar putting out contextually appropriate resources. The Post Secondary website has a list of locally developed resources. If anybody wants to look that up at WWWF myanmar.com
People are putting the programs online. People are people are sharing resources. There's a lot of networks springing up. I would love to see more of that. I would love to see more opportunities for different schools to collaborate and share more resources. One particularly impressive project is modern national college that has managed to form links with a number of universities and align their curriculum so that their graduates can access Thai universities without having to bother with the GED or and I am hoping that their success might be able to be replicated for the karini and Karen other groups, who also want a pathway for their students to get to university. But I really need to make the point that universe that international universities, although extremely popular and sought after, is not the only option. It's not the only thing that the post secondary sector focuses on, because you need community actors, you need teachers, you need medics, you need advocates, you need environmentalists. And university is not the only way to become one of those.
Host 43:04
Now you've been involved in the education field in Myanmar for so many years and decades, so I just would like to ask a personal question of what what has drawn you so much to your passion and dedication and perseverance, on a personal level, to have this be the thing that you've spent so many years of your life dedicated to?
Katie Julian 43:24
Well, it's basically an incredibly fulfilling job. I wake up every morning and go work now. I get to work with with wonderful people. It's very intellectually stimulating. You get a lot of feedback that what you're doing is valuable and but yeah, it's about the people. Just yeah, limitless numbers of really impressive people I meet from all kinds of different backgrounds all The time, persist. We will eventually overcome the difficulties.
Amy 44:22
Our okay. My name is Amy, and I finished graduating with law, and I'm working with NGOs, which is based on the gender based violence and child abuse cases, for three years. And I'm working with some research paper with my group, and I'm trying to move on, move in the Thailand, because I have, I think there has a many opportunity to get again, ways such as like universities or some NGO works, so they are connecting from. People at the Myanmar and between inside Myanmar and also at the Thailand so I can work with for the Human Rights survivors or human rights defender together. I hope I can find a job in the Thailand. Yes.
45:17
Thank you.
Sitthu 45:18
Yeah. So my name is Sitthu. So I was a law student before military coup, and so after the cube, I tried in the civil disobedience movement, and I studied human rights and compared to politics at a lot of interior institutions like spring University, Myanmar and like Erskine and so on so. And then I my interests have drawn me to the researcher, science research, especially in human rights. And I started doing learning research at the various at organizing and NGOs. And then I started doing research on my own, with with my group, with my group, I found a group with people like minded like me who are interested in research. And so we have done two papers already, and I'm looking forward to doing more research on especially targets, issues, topics. Because I think in order to solve our current situation in Myanmar, I think we need a little bit of more, like online research or actual data on the ground and present to the starting from the ASEAN Regional and then to the global, global warm because when I, when I joined animalized obsc training last month, because, and there are, like representatives from our CSO and ASEAN, but they don't know what actually happening in Myanmar. So I think it's important to show the war what is really happening on the ground, and because maybe, maybe then they can suggest or find some solutions for us.
Host 47:14
Great. So both of you have gotten into law different parts of the law. I'd be curious, if you can share why from an early age, why law was something that attracted you, and why that was something you wanted to go in.
Amy 47:27
So I learned about the human rights about when I was a third year students, university students, things. So my mentors and I working with human rights works and trainings I also attend, and I give the email my trainings to the local communities. So for several years, and I stopped when having the coop, but I think I finished the law so I can get my lawyer license, but I have to enter to the some procurement at the government office. So I tried the CDM movement. I quit to get my law license, but I think after the coup, I faced some legal issues about our friends. They needed some legal aids or some I tried the gender based violence cases or back my experience, so they need some help, but I can help because I have, I don't have any license for the legal procedure, so I try to get back my loyal license at this time. And one of my friends, he asked me to try to get the license, because you can help people with that license. And I, I proceed my procedures for with the government for now. But I I heard, in the name of Lugo Biba, they don't understand what is going on and on, especially on the human rights issues they are trying. They just assume that armed group just fighting each other, or military just they don't understand what is going on. So I give some knowledge sharing section with universities, trainings. So I think I have to do these works more back time. So I tried the trainings. I'm trying to reach out for universities as a students so because students can work more than. Is me so effectively in the local community. So they can trust us. They can trust me, who I am, what I'm doing. So I'm trying to reach out the universities and the NGO communities in Thailand, or also Myanmar. I have some friends. They are working for the Human Rights survivors. So I try to reach the Human Rights sector again, yes.
Sitthu 50:30
For me, I think is because of everything the military has been doing since, like, for like, over 60 years, I've been here because they use the law as a tool to repress civilians and, of course, to find to take advantage for their interests. So I think it is, it is an important for us to understand the law and find a solution with every ethnic groups, because the current, the current laws, like 1947, Constitution said before and to donate a constitution are aware made by the they're made by him, the military. So isn't that it did not, you know, contain ethnic consents or ethnic interest, it did not protect human rights at all. So I think it is important to learn human rights, because I, my interest, is to human rights. Because human rights is a it's like an more I think it's like a more principles or more values. But we also need more to implement, to enforce that human rights values and protect to those like minorities in Myanmar.
Host 51:55
So, yes, this is what following the coup. How dangerous was it to be a lawyer in Myanmar lawyers?
Amy 51:59
I think I have senior lawyers friends. So the at first time of the coup, they did not reject the legal aids at the trial process. But the after the coup, one year after the coup, they reject the Legal Aid at the trial process, so lawyer cannot provide any legal protection for the clients, for the human rights. So they, I heard and I faced some experience, but they cannot meet very public in public with the clients. They have to meet very private leads, and they cannot, they cannot access their rights at the government office, so fully, especially police, they do not respect any, any things, any human rights for the lawyer and also for the clients, so they cannot give sufficient aids to the clients the lawyer have faced some dangers because they threat, some kinds of words or some kinds of actions, you don't need to. You don't have to go with the client to the gusty or something. So we can, we cannot provide any sporting for example, medical, Medicaid, AIDS or something, to the clients, we cannot provide them. And also, lawyers also face some you, you so you don't as the lawyer, you don't need to talk the clients to the custody or something. So it is very it happens many provisions to contact with the clients, and also the gets any some threat, not due to the work, you are avoiding some law or something they they inherited so at the the face that kinds of issues, right? As a lawyer, yeah.
Host 54:31
To ask another question for you, one of the things I think that's surprising to outside observers about the Myanmar military regime is that they seem to have a facade of wanting to show that they are following law and order. They're not just saying that they're doing whatever they want. They disregard it. They do this whole charade of trying to pretend that everything they're doing has some kind of legal precedent. And trying to manipulate different situations to show that they're actually acting in the right way, even though most all Burmese in the international community sees the absolute facade and and charade that it is. Why do you think, as someone who has studied law, why does the military play these games that everyone just sees through?
Sitthu 55:20
I think they want to maintain their like legitimacy to, I think, to type two categories, the ones from within Myanmar who support them, and, of course, to the international community. Because in in Myanmar is very there are like not only people who support them crazy. Of course, they have their supporters, so they have to maintain that group, and they have to show their supporters that they are following the law. They are continuing with the law in accordance with the law. So I think is it is all about controlling, controlling to their positions and their legitimacy, to their supporters and, of course, international community. But we all know that on the ground, they do whatever they want to do. But one thing is that they are very clever in, you know, getting rid of evidence, of course, like in, for example, in we have 2017, Rohit cases. And because, when they do that kind of MasterCard, they order their soldiers to get rid of every recordings and every evidence.
Amy 56:50
So I think yeah is about their position. Just one thing, just please look really happening in the Myanmar underground, not on media. And please contact with the Acura worker, human rights support worker or something. And please just watch, and keep watching for the situations in Myanmar, yes.
Sitthu 57:20
Yes. For me, I'm very open to work with everyone who really want to know what's happening in Myanmar. I I hope I can help, because I have some connections on the ground, and some of, most of them, want to really, really want to share what's happening around them like they have so many cases and issues are happening and they want to share, but they don't know how. So, yeah, so maybe I, I hope I can help you with that. And also, of course, please keep supporting our democratic movements with people who are people who are working on The ground and yeah, please keep school. Yes. Thank you.
Host 58:23
Many of you are quite familiar with our nonprofit better Burma, which was formed in the weeks following the military coup and carries out humanitarian missions around the country. But did you know that we also have a shop that carries handicraft sourced from Artisan communities throughout Myanmar. We take great pride in all of our products being 100% Myanmar made from the materials to the design to the workmanship, from the Tanaka artfully incorporated on the doll's faces to the cats and frogs wearing scarves made of traditional wengji fabric, they all clearly show they were made in the golden land. So your gift will bring a little bit of authentic Myanmar into the home of its recipient, and even if just a little, will help keep the people and culture alive in our hearts. And most importantly, your purchase will not only support the livelihood of the artisans, but also help fund our wider humanitarian and media missions. Please take a moment to visit our shop at alokacrafts.com that's Aloka, A, l, o, k, a, Crafts, C, R, A, F, T, s, one word .com, of course, as is your preference, you can also consider making a donation through our normal channels. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method, Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need a post. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement, CBM, families of deceased victims, internally displaced person, IDP, camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns. Friends, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries, education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies, covid relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website, betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit card. You can also give via PayPal, by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon, Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search Better Burma on each platform, and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org, that's betterburma, one word, spelled B, E, T, T, E R, B, U, R, M, A.org if you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.