Transcript: Episode #230: Taming the Tiger
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Host 00:08
Thank you for joining us for the next hour to in this episode of Inside Myanmar podcast. In an age of nearly limitless content, we appreciate that you're choosing to take valuable time out of your day. To learn more about what is happening in Myanmar, it's vital for the story to be heard by people around the world. And that starts right now with you. Prayers For this episode of insight, Myanmar podcast, we have a special guest, I'm really excited about the conversation that follows. Before I get into the guest, I want to introduce some background, and that's that, I believe that recent Myanmar history becomes more defined by these big flare up and dramatic events that have happened. As we all know, 1988 2007, the most recent one 2021. These moments have turned many Burmese overnight into Democratic leaders and human rights activists while also gaining worldwide attention. This is understandable these moments would do that. But I think what we miss in trying to understand what's happening in Myanmar is an understanding into the nature of the resistance movement, how it has changed over time, between and in the space of these dramatic moments, the tensions, and the difference of opinions about the way forward; all of the work that's happening at the grassroots level. This is something that I hope to talk about on this current discussion with Nway who was our guest. Nway is the subject, and the protagonist of the book Rebel of Rangoon by Delphine Schrank, and we're so fortunate to have a chance to talk to him. And this book is a study of Nway's life in activism. As we'll learn, Nway's activism did not come about as a reaction to a specific event that encouraged him and motivated him to become an activist, but rather it was a life path that he's been on from his very early years going back to family history. This is what we're going to learn about now; we're going to learn about the life of an activist, both during the dramatic events as well as in between these dramatic events when nothing is happening and what's happening with the resistance then, that's what we hope to learn from him. Let's hear from our guests right now. Let's introduce our audience to your story, Nway, this is depicted in Rebel of Rangoon. Let's hear it from you directly. So Nway thank you for taking the time to sit with us and tell us your story.
Nway 03:38
Thanks for asking me to talk about my story. It is not really about the work, but I worked for the NLD and also I work for the processing Burma since 1999. Then after 2008, I started a network promoting togetherness. At the time I met with Delphine. Delphine helped me a lot to understand the international politics. Okay, so we do our best for our country. And then after 2010 Daw Su Su has been released, and then the election was held in 2012. NLD won the landslide election, at the 2015 also NLD won landslide election at that time. See, that time was a good time for Burmese people, because Nation Building Process has been led by Daw Aung San Suu Kyi and then everyone, especially people following Daw Aung San Suu Kyi saw a lot of, you may hear, successful stories between 2012 to 2013. So of course, when Daw Aung San Suu Kyi became a state councilor, I work for the headquarter of the NLD members. And then unfortunately at 2020 after NLD won the landslide election, there was a military coup and PDF resistance started again. I also take part in the resistance as usual, but there is a difference between two part. Before 2010 the way we do politics is far from the way we do politics or coalition after 2020.
Host 05:52
Great, thank you for that brief introduction. I wonder if we can go back a little further into your history. This is shared in your portrayal in the book Rebel of Rangoon. But for those who haven't read the book, if we can learn a bit about your story depicted there. In the book, your background picks off by describing how your father went to school with Aung San Suu Kyi. He was a doctor that moved to Tontay to serve the rural community with his wife who was a nurse. From here, let's see if you can tell this story and pick off from there. Tell us about your childhood and the decision for you to become involved in politics at a very early age.
Nway 06:44
In fact, when I was young, I didn't really understand politics. As normal young people, we don't know what is democracy, what is human rights. We just follow normal doctrine of our life. So, we go to the school, have friends, have fun, and then follow the authority order, that is all, but my mother is different because she always actively took part in politics. And also, my father died in the prison in 1996. So my mother, as a single mother, took care of four young boys. So when the youngest one passed high school, my mother asked four of us, one of you must have help Daw Aung San Suu Kyi. In fact, at the time we didn't understand politics, no one knows what is democracy, what is human rights, but I thought politics will be fairly easy. So, I said okay, mother, I will help Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, and I will join the NLD. But there is a deal with my family, because at the time if someone from a family involved in the politics, all of the family business is shut down by the government. So, the deal with my family is because I'm going to be involved in politics, I will not have any health dish from the family. But the family will support me until the democracy has been installed in the country. So we agreed on that. So, that means I don't have to do family business. But then in 2010, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi has been released, and then two of my brothers in Yangon complained to me that democratic struggle in Burma is over. I said no, we still need to amend the 2008 constitution, so I need to work for the NLD or the democratic causes in Burma. But then they say no, everything is now fine, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's now televised and is given a lot of space. Very soon she will enter into the parliament, and she will be in the government, what do you have to do? So I said, even though there is democracy, the 2008 constitution has been occupied by the military, because of the military's robust 25%, and also, some of the important positions. The first issue and also holding the fair [election] issue has been at the control of the military, so it doesn't mean that we got the democracy. We still have to fight. But, they said it's finished. So, that means I cannot get support from the family after 2012. So, it's very opposite to many other people's situation. They had problems before Daw Aung San Suu Kyi has been released, and then when Burma started nation-building process between 2012 and 2020, everyone is okay, because of this economic flow and more job opportunities. For me, it is different, because I still want to do politics, I still want to help Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, and I still want to help Burmese people, but of course I'm just a NLD member or just an attribute, so I don't have any support. And my family said this is enough, but I said no.
Host 11:52
There are really interesting things about your story I want to focus on. The first is to underscore, for the Western audience especially, how unique it is that your family decided to have one member of the family to support the democracy movement and support Aung San Suu Kyi. Who will this member be? And you volunteer, and then you're excused from the normal worldly activities of education and work, and you're just focused completely on supporting the NLD with your family supporting you. When I heard this story, the first thing that came to my mind is when people become Buddhist monks. This is not uncommon for determining one member of the family should be a Buddhist monk who wants to be a monk, and then that monk is excused from the normal bussiness of the world, and the other family supports them. They're all happy that they get to work to be able to give for that effort. I think this is unique, because in the West, we don't really have these kind of communal relations the same way; people are mostly responsible for whatever they want to do in the world, for their family, their work, their livelihood, their spirituality, their activism, they do this all themselves. But, you're describing a model, whether it's a member of the family leaving to become a Buddhist monk and being supported or a member of the family leaving the worldly business to become an activist, you're also supported. The question for you is do you see any parallels between this experience a member of the family will leave to become a monk and then the rest of the family will support them, and then what you did in terms of basically joining the NLD?
Nway 13:50
Okay, the difference between Western societies and I don't say, Asian society, especially Burmese society because of the military rules, and also, really bad education assistance. Before 2012, I met a lot of young people. If we were asked by the other people, what is your future plan? What kind of people you want to be? What is your dream? So, apart from saying I will try to be a doctor, I will try to be a military officer, we don't know the rest of the terms, because of the military education system. This is one part. In my family's case, because my father died in the prison, and my mother doesn't want to us to be hurt by this. So, she just took care of us and she didn't tell us about it very much. But in her mind, she still believed that Burma needs democracy, and Burma needs better education, so we have more information and more critical thinking. So, people will learn from other people and so that they will know the meaning of life. So, that's why my mother resents, anti-cheating [in voting] is enough. When everyone passed high school, she called for everyone and instucted one of you must fight for democracy, one of you must help Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, and then the rest of you must support him. As far as I understand, this happened, because number one, if you met with four of us maybe in 1996, or 1997, and you ask four of us, what's your plan? We wouldn't know anything. And if you ask us, what is your dream? At least we may say, I want to be a doctor, I want to be a military officer. That is all, we don't know what is the meaning of life. We don't know if there are a lot of alternatives that can make an individual to have a happy life. We don't know, we don't have any plan. We just have go to school, past school, and then University, and then go to work, get married, kids, and then send the kids to the school. That is all. So, this is one part, and other part is because my mother believed in democracy. That is why she decided the way in which she can participate in the democratic cause in the country. But, she is old so then she arranged it, Okay, one of you must do it, and then the rest of us will support.
Host 17:34
You say your mother believed in democracy, but she is believing without really living in democracy. You're experiencing it, unlike many of the youths today who lived at the transition period. How did your mother understand democracy? How did she describe it? What about democracy did she like because she wasn't actually experiencing it?
Nway 17:57
Because Burmese society only ever had a few periods of a democratic government. For example, after independence, in 1948, there was democratic government in Burma and then civil war. And then in 1962, there was a military coup and also was at 88. So, for my mother when the democratic government govern the country before 1962, she was a nurse in Taung Kyi in Shan state. Taung Kyi hospital was built by Russia, and of course, she gets some of the freedom. And then she has same office with some senior doctors who she admire and she respect. When general Ney Win's coup took power in 1962 some of her respected doctors or seniors move to another country. So, before they move to another country, they explained the military coup will destroy the country, but my mother didn't understand at the time. After some time she realises, the country's economy is getting down and also education system is very low. So, she doesn't want us to live in an undemocratic society, and on the other hand, she has a responsibility for her country to take part in making changes in the country. That is why she decided to things this way.
Host 20:02
Yeah, thanks for explaining that. So, getting back to your journey, you describe how your mother wanted one of her children to join the democratic movement and to be supported by the family. You volunteered for that, and you became very close with Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, Mother Suu, I think, as you called her in the book. It is described in the book, how you would sneak into her compound when she was under house arrest and deliver messages. Then when Saffron Revolution kicked on, you were in the background behind the scenes. Can you describe a bit about this time in your life in the first decade of the 2000s; what you were doing in the movement, how you were connected with Aung San Suu Kyi, and then what was going on with Saffron as well?
Nway 21:01
So, when I've been asked this kind of question, I miss so much the onw who is known as U Nyan Win, who has passed away in the prison after 2021 military coup. U Kyan Win is one of the famous lawyers in the country, and he also was very close to Daw Aung San Suu Kyi and is one of the central executive committee members of the NLD until he was killed in prison. He is the first secretary of the NLD and he is the chairman of the information committee. Okay so, let's go back to before 2010. At the time, you may remember John Yettaw, who is an American citizen, who has been known as the one who swam across the Inya lake to sneak into Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's compound. Then after that State Peace and Development Council (SPDC) found out, then SPDC extended the house arrest sentence to Daw Aung San Suu Kyi because of his action. Because this case happened, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi must have a lawyer, and the lawyer is U Nyan Win. So, I'm very close to U Nyan Win. So based on this, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi had an opportunity to meet with U Nyan Win. So when the two met, they don't talk about the case of John Yettaw, but they talked about politics. Then through U Kyan Win Daw Aung San Suu Kyi sent a message to me, especially to send a message to his family in Oxford, like Sister Lawrence and my CrossFit especially to lobby the UK Government and European Union to put more pressure on the junta.
Host 23:32
You would also deliver messages when she was under house arrest. So, you actually had to sneak into her compound when it was guarded by military, is that right?
Nway 23:41
Not really like an expert. I had opportunities to enter into her compound. For example, I approach to the one who has to buy breakfast for her, and then I approach the one who is going to gardening in her house. Then through them I sneak some messages not directly to Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, but to someone who we can trust. It is not like James Bond, you know.
Host 24:26
Right, but you're still having to be clever to get those messages in and not be captured?
Nway 24:33
Yeah, that's it. So, even this time... I will tell you an interesting story. So, before 2007 the Saffaron Revolution, there was a lot of discussion to implement the 2007 revolution. In fact, you already knew that the 2007 Saffron Revolution was not ed by the NLD, but by the people of Burma. But at the time, as the young people of the NLD, we communicated with different groups. But in this scenario, one thing appeared; it is that one of my school tutors is in prison, and then gave a message to the older monk who has been in the prison, saying that we are going to implement a 2007 Saffron revolution, which has been led by monks across Burma. So, the problem is, in order to send this message one must be arrested. Although this was not me, it was one of my friends who is now passed away, killed by the military in this revolution. His name is Myint Khine, he is from Yankin Township, and he said, Okay, I will go to the prison. So we have to find an issue to go to the prison. So at that time, the famous sanction?? is living in the shadow. In Burma, if you are sitting or standing under the shadow at night, the police can arrest you for three days. So if you are in Yangon, it is really good to be arrested by them for only three days, and you can deliver the message to the person in prison. So, he tried for nine days, to be arrested for this offence of being in the shadow at night, but nobody arrest him. Then he went to Kyi Myit Nhine fishing market of a lot of crime, but he didn't find anyone. So, he went to a massage room, and massage at the time is illegal until now. But, every massage place was actually ran by the military generals. So, no masseuse were arrested when he was trying to be arrested. And then finally, as a joke in the write up of this story, reach out, send some sample. So, he hit the policeman, and then he was arrested and then deliver the message. The same thing happened after 2021 military coup, because I do really wanted to deliver the message to the leaders who has been arrested in Insein prison. This time, mass movement of the people is more solid than any other in the history of Burma. So, I try to find a way to deliver this message to them, because what I worry is that the NLD leaders who have been arrested don't know that people completely hate the military, and they [NLD leaders] still believe that we can negotiate with them, which is really the blood line of this revolution. So, I do want to explain to them, please don't trust them. People in Burma at this time, to be honest, don't like the NLD that much, that they don't think whatever Daw Aung San Suu Kyi do is very good. Some of her decisions have been disagreed by many honourable people in Burma, but they support Daw Aung San Suu Kyi. But, they are taking part in the revolution and also they are completely supporting to the NLD just because they don't like military and they want to get rid of the military completely, because they don't like the way the military think, the way the military behave,and the way the military belief socially, religiously, and culturally. They cannot accept the idea of military and that is why they are taking part. They are giving up their happiness, their family life, their time and energy for the revolution. So, the main reason is not that they like the NLD too much or they like Daw Aung San Suu Kyi too much, but because they think military and it's order should not be in a civilized society; their idea is out of the Stone Age. So, I would like to send this message to the leader of the NLD. So I create a story and then I try to be arrested. And then, of course, I was arrested, I don't remember the date, but that was in 2021 April. I was first happy thinking I'm gonna talk with my leader about the outside situation. But then I remember one thing, both of the members of the Parliament who has been now leading the NLD government, they have been hiding at Marcey house, and also some other young people preparing to join the armed struggle are living at another safe house. So, they were all, at the time, at three different safe houses and they don't know each other. And also, they don't know any of the future plans. I am the only one who knows the future plan and who knows who is hiding where. So in this scenario, I see I made a mistake. This is not the time to be arrested, so I must escaped from them. Then when they investigated me, they arrested me at 9am, and then they asked me a lot of questions and a kind of torture, not very seriously. Like, happening today, that kind of torture, but I try to be okay with them. I try to make them to trust me. I said, Okay, I don't like military coup, but I understand of what is happening in the country. So, what about if we negotiate with all the parties and for the sake of the country? So, they started to think that I'm flexible, and at 6pm the same day they let me go. And then I said, Oh my God, because I almost made the wrong decision.
Host 32:53
You are hitting upon the nature of the resistance movement and the NLD's role in it. I think this calls a big question into the divergence between the kind of the grassroots, the things happening on the ground level, and the NLD. You said something very interesting just now, where you're trying to tell NLD leaders that this isn't 2008. You're trying to tell them that the people don't necessarily love the NLD, but they hate the military, and you're the best alternative. I mean, this is something I feel like we're still repeating today. I feel like today in 2023, the conversation among Burmese activists is to what degree are the people at the bottom grassroots level leading the charge? and to what degree is top leadership directing it or constructing a strategy? So what are your thoughts over the years? You've been an activist for years and decades, really. You've seen this dynamic and this tension up close. So, what are your thoughts on the evolution in the life and the role of the NLD? Of course, it was formed in 1988, it was illegal for many years, and then some years it was somewhat legal and there. It's the story of what the NLD has done and what the democratic activists have done during that time has changed according to how the military regime has responded and acted on their side. But what are your thoughts about seeing the life of the NLD play out and its role in the wider democracy movement?
Nway 34:56
Yes. For me, the message is the NLD means Burmese society, so I would like to explain about this. Under the dictator ship rules, we need to give birbes in everyday life; whatever we want to do, in order to get an identity card, in order to buy a car, to have a licence to drive, in order to go to school, we need to pay a bribe everywhere. So, Burmese people completely dislike paying bribes. For example, when I was in seventh grade, I go to a bank, because I want to buy a racing bike, but my mother told me that it is very expensive and I cannot buy you this bike immediately, but I can collect money. So, you take this money every month and go to the bank and you deposit it. Then, at the end of the year, after you finish your exam, you withdraw the money and you buy the bike. So, that's the idea and I thought it was great. She paid me some money every month, then I go to the bank, and then the bank officer told me, why are you coming here? And I said, I'm going to save my money at your bank. There's always only a national bank, no private bank at that time. Maybe around 1993 or 1992, I don't remember exactly. Then, he said, Okay you have pay a fine. I'm just in middle school, so I don't know how to pay the fine. Then they scolded me, they tell me very rudely, why don't you understand, you should understand [to pay the fine]. Then I said, please listen to me, I am your customer, you must show respect to me. Then they say no, we don't have to respect you, if you don't want to save your money at our bank, just go back. In the Western society and democratic society, you will never hear anything like this. So, all the government staff are very arrogant and that they think people as their slave, not as the customer. I live in Tontay, so sometimes I go to Yangon, which is the biggest city in Burma. I wanted to visit Bogyoke market or Sule pagoda or People's park, but when we use the bus if the military generals come all the buses must stop and wait until the generals are finished. It's looked as if we are valueless, we are nothing, just slaves, we never have respect from the government. In this case, you can analyze that what Burmese people really want is, number one, to be respected. Number two, the one who is working for the nation should not be corrupted. So, in this case, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, maybe she made mistakes about Rohingya Issue or ethnic issues or amendment of 2008 constitution of being parliamentary members, being the State Councillor, she must have made mistakes, maybe. But, everyone in Burma knows that she is not corrupt and she respects the people. This is why everyone in Burma support her. I also want to be respected by other people and I want a leader who is not corrupt at all. Of course, because of my mother, after I join the NLD, I completely understood that we needed Democracy. So, if someone grows up in Yangon and if this someone were to make a change in Burma, he or she must join the NLD, because there is no alternative at the time. So after 1988, let's say general U Kyi Maung, general U Aung Swe, general U Tin Oo, general U Thant Htoon, most of the central executive committee members are from the military, military-retired or maybe the military men who hadn't been liked by general Ney Win or general Than Shwe. So, apart from Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, all the center executive member of the NLD are from the military. After 2012, U Nyant Win, U Han Thar Myint, even U Win Htein in, and also current president U Win Myint began the member center executive component. So, it seems to be that a lot of change happen in the NLD; from the scope of the military to the civilian. Because if you study the executive members of the NLD, around 2015 and 2012, apart from U Win Htein, no one is from the military. So, U Win Myint is a lawyer, Dr.[] Maung is a doctor, U Nyan Win is a lawyer, and then Daw Nakin Htwe Myint is an ordinary civilian. So, it looks as if that between 2012 and 2015, the NLD leadership has gone to the hands of civilians, which is really good. Then the military coup happens so you see who are leading the NUG, I'm not going to say NLD, but you look at the NUG, you will see Daw Zin Mar Aung who is the foreign minister of the NUG and as you will see Oo Yin Moe, who is the defense minister of the NUG, Lwin Ko Latt who is the Home Affairs minister of the NUG and also Nay Phone Latt who is the spoke person of the prime minister office of the NUG. These people are from the NLD and they also are completely young civilians living in a neighborhood. They're not from the military, they are not from the elite; this is one part. And then you study the government minister of the NUG, you will see the Vice President is from the Kachin, Minister is from Kayin And then some Deputy Ministers Ei Thinzar Maung are Karen ethnic, and then the one who is working for a important position in India called Issac Tin is from Chin State. So, the way the NUG has been organized is very diverse. Also, there's a few NLD members most of whom are completely ordinary civilians. So let me conclude this, in 1988, most of the central members apart from Daw Aung San Suu Kyi are from the military. In 2012 and 2013, some lawyers and some doctors are majority, but military is minority. And then after the military coup, young leaders pop up. I don't like military coup, I see how much our people are suffering from the political turmoil, but one good thing is completely ordinary civilians are now leading the NLD, which international community, Rohingya people, ethnic people.
Host 45:02
That is an important thing to point out and to note. You had followed and supported Aung San Suu Kyi for many years. Then in 2015, when she became state councilor, you referenced how the way she handled Rohingya was problematic for many people, to understate it. Another issue with her rule which was concerning to some was th sense that she was not trying to build institutions or democratic structures, but continuing this kind of personality cult. That's something we've seen a lot in Myanmar over the years, whether it's a dictator, or a general or a military leader, or in this case, someone coming from democratically elected, that the trust and the faith is placed in one person in making those decisions rather than structures of conversation, debates, dialogues, negotiations, compromises and the whole messy process of what a democracy really is. And that a real democracy is not the result of one dynamic leader, but it's the result of a system that's coming together to be strong and enable the system to transcend whatever the work of any individual can do. What are your thoughts about what Aung San Suu Kyi did, not as a democracy activist or as someone protesting military rule, but in the role of a leader? What did you find about how she handled that role? Both your evaluation as well as your expectation in what you saw her doing as a leader.
Nway 47:11
I will say this, I disagree with some of her decision making, but I explained to you why Burmese people love Daw Aung San Suu Kyi. It's because she actually respect the people and then she is completely not corrupt. So, this is important. So, for me, I understand that Daw Aung San Suu Kyi put her focus on the people of Burma, not her position, not herself, and not for her popularity. She just work for the people of Burma. The thing is that to solve problems practically; if someone is honest, and if someone is really want to work for the people of Burma, he or she must know what are all the problems that have been caused by the military. I will give you an evidence. When we held the peace conference under the NLD rule between 2015 and 2020, there were Ethnic Armed Civil Society Organization (EROs), media, political parties, and also the military. When we talk about a problem in a meeting, nothing gets sorted out if military is there. If military is not there, if there are only ERO civil society organization, and the NLD, we can solve a lot of problems. So, the point is Burma has problems because of the military. The way Daw Aung San Suu Kyi try to solve this problem is she tried to use her charismatic power over the military. If the military follows her, everything will be fine. So, let's see, we have a fight in Karen state; KNU and the military-Not KNU and the NLD, not KNU and Burmese people. We have a fight in the Rakhine State between Arakine army and the military, not NLD and not Burmese people. So when we talk about Rohingya issue, if we say Rohingya issue this is a little bit different, but when we talk about Muslim people, Muslim people are everywhere in the country. And they were like our own brother. So we argue with each other, we are angry at each other, or maybe sometime we hate each other, but we are living together, staying together. So, it means, Burmese people never hated Muslim people, and NLD never hated Muslim people. But who hates them? Military. The military don't really hate them, actually, they are using them as their political benefit. So, if the one understands the whole picture, you cannot be an activist, you cannot be a human rights activists, you cannot be civil society organization. You must be the one who is going to solve the problems practically. Let's say if military coup didn't take power in 2021, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi would use her charismatic power to convince the military, and say, this is for the sakes of the country, find a way to get along. And then she would talk to the ethnic people, blah, blah, blah. So, this is the way that she would be going. But looking back from this time, we must say she was wrong. She was trying to convince a tiger by giving it a sugar cane, so she was wrong. That is why we say we don't agree with some of her decisions, but we believe that she's very honest, not corrupt, and she respects the people. There may be someone who is acting honest, but not respect the people. There may be someone who respects he people, but corrupt.
Host 53:04
Right, looking at the transition during that period, we looked at Aung San Suu Kyi and her role. There's been a lot of debate about this transition period. Was it real? To what extent did it really open the door and give democratic reforms? To what extent was it a crony capitalism and just land grabs and being able to give certain opportunities for the more privileged? As someone who has been working for decades before the transition period for democratic opening, what is your opinion of the transition? Do you think that it was a legitimate opening? Or did you have concerns and issues with what was happening when the transition period started open?
Nway 53:52
Okay, from 2010, as a transitional period, I must say it is just branding. So as the NLD or as Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, even for myself, and we never thought that as real transition occuring. I got a into an argument with my family because my family argued that, hey, democracy cause is over because Daw Aung San Suu Kyi is now in the parliament. I said, no, we do have one thing left to do, which is to amend the 2008 Constitution. As long as we are under the 2008 constitution, it means that we have no democracy in the country. So, we don't consider it as a transition.
Host 54:56
So, you did not see the 2010 period as legitimate?
Nway 55:03
No, we don't see that.
Host 55:06
Your main criticism, your main evaluation and evidence as to why it's not legitimate centers on the 2008 Constitution, is that correct? And if so, for those listeners that are not familiar with the problems of the Constitution, and the need for reform, why is this piece of evidence about the Constitution not being reformed is central to your understanding as to why the transition is not legitimate?
Nway 55:37
So we can say, after 2010 Daw Aung San Suu Kyi has been released, but in reality, that is an agreement between China and the United States to hold the election as a promise of democracy. But as long as 2008 Constitution is not free, even if we have a free election, we cannot say this a democracy. So, we call the 2008 Constitution as a ghost constitution, because in 2008, there was a Cyclone called Nargis and it killed a lot of people, and then in 2008, the SPDC held the referendum, and it had the aggreement of 99% for the referendum, but when we checked, we found out that all the dead people in the Nargis were put on for the favour of the 2008 constitution. This is very low, you may know such kind of experience in African countries, and many different countries. Without caring for own people, they just do what they want. But for Daw Aung San Suu Kyi at the time, because of the pressure by China and United States, everyone must be included, diversity, and then election, which is not completely the solution for us small countries, which is fighting for the democracy. However, the problem is that the military has all the power. The military has a man power, workers power, economic power, but the opposition had nothing at the time before 2010. So, we need to negotiate with the big country, powerful country what they really want, and what we really want. Let's think from the perspective of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, she is the most important one, and she is the most responsible one for the country, which nobody asked of her, but she did it on her own. So she took the responsibility for the country, the least harmful, and the best way, so negotiate with the military. Theoretically, activists, civil society organizations, and small number of people may blame Daw Aung San Suu Kyi that you are cooperating with the military, but the reality is not only China, even the United State Government, you may remember (Mr.?), who visited Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's house when she was under house arrest, so we don't have any option, we have to follow this not in order to make the best, but in order to make that a little bit better. That is the point. So, she negotiated with the military, because the world see that without election there is no democracy. For the people of Burma, we want democracy, not because we like democracy, we want democracy because we think under the democratic ruler we will be respected, under the democratic ruler, we will have an equal opportunity to do business, more opportunity to get better education; that is a point, not the democracy, actually. But, the other side of this is if you don't have an election you cannot say that is democracy. I hope you and audience listening to this may understand what I mean. I mean, it is a solution, whether it is the best solution, or whether it is to make things a little better.
Host 1:01:04
So, you're just talking about a Burmese populace that is tired of being bullied, not respected, and not having opportunities. They don't necessarily have an experience with other political systems or political theory in general, but they see this thing called democracy as perhaps the best possible solution for giving them more stability and opportunity in life than they're able to have. Is that right? So, another thing is that you are characterized in The Rebel of Rangoon book as fighting against and being frustrated by tendencies of rigid thinking or lack of independent mindedness within the democratic movement, within the NLD, or people resisting the military. Can you describe examples of how you saw these tendencies of rigid thinking and a lack of independent mindedness in that time?
Nway 1:02:07
Yeah, this is right, I'm very critical to the leadership of the NLD at the top before the 2010, because to be honest with the audience, most of the NLD leaders came from the military, and I don't think their basic thinking is very free. As I explained to you previously, what the people of Burma really want is, in English we say freedom, but realistically, we want to be respected by the government, we want to get equal opportunity for doing business and for education. We also want access to other people who are different from us, how do they think about race? How do they see? We cannot follow the same path of our elders. We want to create a new thing, we want to know what is happening to the different other people. For example, if we talk about love, in Burmese thinking, we say you must be like this, you must marry this, and you might marry your girlfriend if it's a successful story. But we know that even if we marry our girlfriend maybe did this successfully senpai you know. In this scenario, we need a new thing, but at the time all the NLD leadership just say reconciliation, dialogue. We realize that practically election is not the solution for the country, and dialogue is impossible. For example, you cannot convince a tiger not to eat meat. So, when the military ruled, the leader of the military already get everything, power and men. Then you cannot say hey, you have enough powers you have many men, please give it up, nobody does this. But the world says peaceful movement, maybe following in Velvet revolution in Eastern Europe, like Vaclav Havel and so on. But, if you look at Poland, the dictatorship is someone who is possible to negotiate, but Burmese military is completely unable to negotiate. So now look at this type of Five Point Consensus of the ASEAN, also United States, European Union,and even China pushing everyone to go to the table. But my question is like this.., if it is possible for State Administrative Council (SAC) to be pushed to go to the table, there will be no coup, they will not kill our young people, they will not rape young girls, and then they will not give death sentences to Ko Jimmy and Thura Zaw and many unknown people in the first place. So that is the point. The international community think that election and democracy is solution. Of course, we call for the democracy because we want the support from the Western Community or international community, but in reality what we really want is the best solution for our country. We will not stand for China, not stand for America, not stand for India, we stand for our own people.
Host 1:07:16
I want to ask also about the role of Buddhism. It's described in the book that you are a practitioner, you practice Vipassana meditation, and that has been something that's helped with your activism. You were also involved in Saffron Revolution, where we had a number of monks who were really leading that movement and making their voices heard. A lot of things have changed since then. And so in this current time, what do you see about the state of Burmese Buddhism? What do you see about the role of the monks? Where do you see the future of Burmese Buddhism going with what you're seeing now?
Nway 1:08:03
Okay, to be honest with you, the future of Buddhism will not be very good in Burma. Of course, before 2010, even though I'm not superstitious, I believed in meditation, so I practice meditation a lot. Also Daw Aung San Suu Kyi convinced a lot of young people to practice meditation because meditation can tolerate suffering. So the funny thing is that, I'm like, playing games a lot, especially poker game. Then when we talk, I'd say if the military arrest me, I will say, you let me play poker game and I will tell you everything. If not, I won't tell you anything until I die, this is my joke with my friends, because I love playing games. But in reality, if I were arrested, if I were investigated, I cannot give any kind of information about my colleagues. Then I will get tortured and then I will be sent to prison for many years. But this is a joke. I say okay, I will be in prison for many years because I love to play video game. So, I will rebel everything, that is that is my joke. Right now, after 2021 military coup, I will say even though one wants to practice meditations, I don't want to believe in religion because you see the whole people in Yangon hit their pans in order to say that we don't like military coup. At the time, at the center of Yangon Shwedagon Pagoda is under the light, and listening to the voice of the people hitting cans or iron, but it doesn't have anything. So before him, I believe in law, rule of law is very important. So we were tasked by the civil society organization, especially from western country saying the rule of law is very important. And then we abide by the law, but the military coup took power and then a lot of people lives and property were destroyed, then we are asking the question, what about the rule of law? Why do we try to get support from the international community? You see, we have been killed, our properties were set on fire and nobody help us. And then they say, religion, peaceful, then they say, non-violence, and then we say they have guns, they kill us. Then will we have to follow the law? or will we have to prioritize the peace? You know, the solution is very simple; kill them or be killed by them. The second point in your question, you talk about there are a lot of religious people in democratic cause in Burma. Yes, of course. Until now a man called Min Thonya, Buddha Tekatho, he is actively participating in a revolution. So, let's go back to 2007, which everyone know as Saffron Revolution. So it has been led by the monks. Yeah, of course, that is true, but the problem is not all the religious persons are working for the people. There may be some religious person who really commit their life for the sake of the people, but some of the religious people are doing something for the sake of their own interests. If you look at Sitagu Sayadaw, he is supporting the military, and he is standing with the military. Because of him, how can we believe in religious person? So you may say, Okay, there's a difference between religious people. But what do they teach us? peaceful, peaceful, peaceful, okay. You and I have an argument, and then you want peace, and I want peace, that is okay. But the point is, the other side doesn't want peaceful strategy.
Host 1:13:44
Can I know about your background as a practitioner? What tradition are you in? Who is your teacher in practice that you follow, for example, Mahasi, or Mulgoa, or Zoon Loon or Goenka or like that? And also, what benefit do you get from your meditation practice?
Nway 1:14:12
So, my mother asked me to practice meditation, and then she has a photo of the Theinngu (sayadaw). The benefit I got from the practicing meditation is whenever I get arrested, I can face the military stable-ly, or I can face a military officer without too much excitement. So for me, after I think 2009 October, I cannot remember, I was arrested and I was taken to a prison. At the time special brunch (of the military) was very notorious, they asked me a lot of questions. Maybe you will find it in the book (The Rebel of Rangoon). So, that I can face them without anxiety. And then second time, I was arrested in 2000 [sic], and then they asked me a lot of question, and I can answer their questions, and I was released. After this time, with the coup in April, I was arrested at 9am, and until 6pm I can answer the question very well, and then they had no suspicion. They think that I'm only the one who feel frustration about politics and then they released me. So I will say it was the benefit of meditation.
Host 1:16:17
Why do you think it is that we're not seeing monks involved in 2021 like we saw in previous moments?
Nway 1:16:27
It looks as if the question is very precise and reflective of the history. So when general Than Shwe ruled the country, as SBTC, they had three biggest enemies. Number one is the NLD, number two is the students, and number three is monks. So, we found out that even in the high school, there are a lot of spies. Then we found out that in the universities, a lot of spies, and then they want to change the monks. For example, if there is a monk, and a military general donate a lot of money to the monk, the monk will be powerful, because of following the businesses. For example, you are selling something and you want your business to be popular, so before 2010, you have to approach the monk who has been converted from the military. Then you donate a lot of money, which means the monk will introduce you to the generals and then your business will be very smooth. And then it will be very easy to advertise your business, otherwise, you have a lot of resistance. For example, you run a guitar shop, and then you want to get a license you have to pay price. Then a monk from the military introduces you to a major or a general, and then the general say, hey, this is my guy. So, everything will be going well. So, this is very important. This is the way that the military destroys the religion.
Host 1:18:51
I want to go to your personal journey now because as you're portrayed in the book, The Rebel of Rangoon, it was very important for you to be on the ground and you lived a very difficult life. You were sometimes being hunted and having to go from one safe house to another, but you really insisted during that whole time that you wanted to be in Yangon, be in Myanmar and continue the fight. But you're now in exile, you had to make the decision as so many activists have done to feel that they could do more for the movement outside the country than inside. I imagine that was a very hard decision for you to decide to leave your country, which you've been working so hard to reform and to be an exile. So, talk us through why you made that decision and how it feels.
Nway 1:19:45
Yeah, that is a good question. I don't want to abandon my place, my hometown, and my country. I want to do my best for my country, but this time is different, because according to my experience, I really understood that Mae Sot politics is very important. Before 2010, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi... the world called for national reconciliation, and also peaceful movement. She negotiated with military and then of course, we have had some progress, but in 2021, there was a military coup. It's completely clear that the military is not negotiable. So, I studied the cause after 1988 and what is happening for the armed struggle, because the military coup in 2021 signals to you that you must get rid of them, because they are the people who are living in the stone age. You know, they just want power, they just want to be the winner. They don't know how to help other people. They don't know how to even try to understand other different people. So, this is very obvious. So if you are going to be involved in the armed struggle, Mae Sot politics is very important, because Mae Sot or Chiang Mai is the closest place for Burma. So, you can work there, you can collect money, you can buy weapons, and you can send anything you want to Burma. So, Mae Sot politics is completely important, I understand this, that is one part. So, this is one reason I decided to be in Mae Sot. When I arrived In Mae Sot, I realized that I am right, because SAC already established a network in Mae Sot, under the name of Immigrant Teacher Network. Most of the teachers who are working for Immigrant Teacher Network actually is friends of Daw Thet Thet Khine, who is one of the Minister of SAC. This is one part, another point is, this time, the Sitagu Sayadaw and another Sayadaw, another monk, I don't know his name, they say if 40-million people don't like military, we will kill them, and we will live with the rest of the people. So at the earliest stage of military coup, they talk about it publicly. I read this, okay, this time, we need to be very clear. We cannot convince them, we cannot negotiate with them. We must win over them or they must win over us; this is the solution. So, you know, most of the international community doesn't like violent revolution, they want non-violent revolution, but the problem is, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi did it, and then it didn't work. So every international community, I mean, the leaders of the international community should know this. It is impossible. That is why even though before 2010, I believe in violent way, and I try my best not to abandon my country. But this time, I moved to Mesa and then I support the armed struggle.
Host 1:24:47
That is a big shift for you. You're describing what's happening in the world and in the country, but I'm wondering what's happening for you inside emotionally to move from a lifetime of non-violent peaceful activism to support in an armed struggle, and a lifetime of remaining in Myanmar despite all the dangers and risks that you take to now being in Mae Sot. Those are two big changes that you've made emotionally as an activist. How does it feel to have made that transition? And that really big dramatic change at this moment?
Nway 1:25:24
Yes, of course, but I'm not sure whether I'm answering your question or not. But, now what I'm going to tell you is very important to end what is happening in Myanmar. So, under general Than Shwe rule, they know I am involving in polictics, I'm very close to Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, but nobody give headache to my family members, and none of my family members were arreste, but this time, you see every members of Parliament's houses and businesses were shut down. If there is a suspicion your sister is involving in PDF, you were arrested. And as you know, in Mogok, only five-year-old girl was arrested for almost one year, because her father is involved in revolution. So, it means that SAC, Myanmar military, Min Aung Hlaing has already declared this war against the civil society. Civilized society, which doesn't include the dictatorship rule. So, what he has done is, okay, we have guns, we can kill our own people, you stay away from it, and then you will be okay. That is his challenge to the people who want to respect other people, that is his challenge to the people who believe in diversity and prosperity. Then the international community pushes us, please, go to the peaceful way, which is impossible. So, that's why right now Burmese people are saying, we have only ourselves, we must do what needs to be done by ourself. This is proclamation of the revolution started in 2021.
Host 1:28:17
What is your thought about the current moment? It's been well over two years since the coup was attempted and the resistance movement has continued since then. We have a younger generation of activists, many of whom, unlike yourself, are thrown into this for the first time, they've never considered political scenarios, or activism until they had their freedom taken away from them. And now many have risen up, but it's been a long time and there's not a lot of international support, people are getting tired and do have to support themselves. And so, what's your evaluation of where we are in this current moment? How hopeful are you? How pessimistic are you?
Nway 1:29:04
Okay, first of all, let's say they have gun power and we don't have anything, but there are some points all the audience should notice. Even the international leaders should notice this. The first one is this time the military cannot win over even a small group of the resistant group in Burma. Please don't think about Arakan Army, Karen National Librated Army, Kachin Independent Army, PDF, please don't think about it. We have 330 Townships. So, the question is, which township SAC can control 100%, I mean, no underground activists, no resistance, no assassination, they cannot win over even a small group, that is one point. Another point is along with the history, this time the military is the weakest. So, look back to 1962 coup, 1988 coup took the power again, and then 2021. So, almost 1000s of soldiers, majors and lieutenants defected to the people. This time is the biggest number of military soldiers defected to the people. This is the second point, and then the third point, look back to the 1988 after the coup, in one year they held a lot of sport activities such as marathon race, boat race, and then even a music race, but this time they have a plan to hold the election but they are not able to hold the election even now. So, that means even if I were to be pessimistic for the revolution, I have to admit that the revolution has a lot of progress. So, go back to 1988 there was NCUB, which is the exact our government and then CRPP, who is Committee Representative of the Parliament and also the ABSCS, all Barma Student Union. But now look, there is NUG, CRBH and also PDF, and all those three are all of these. So that means revolution is going progressive. So, even if I do want to pessimist, it is impossible to be pessimistic.
Host 1:33:04
I thank you for sharing your thoughts and your views here. And before we end I'd like to know is there anything else you'd like to share that we haven't gotten into yet?
Nway 1:33:15
I would like to apologize to the international community by saying that we will not be standing for any big nation, we are actually trying to find the best solution for our country. So, if we win the revolution, international community will see a very civilized society in Burma, which will be very active in promoting peace for the whole world. But if the junta win over the people of Burma, you will have a society which believes in stone age in your world. So, I would like to request of you please understand the feeling of people of Burma. We left our country, we want to be like you, we want our kids to be like your kids, to go to school and also we want to sleep with our family like you want to sleep with your family. That is why we are trying to get rid of the military in our political system. This is not only for a party sake, not only for an ethnicity sake, it is for all the people of Burma and also the people of the world.
Host 1:35:52
thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. As regular listeners are aware, we often remind our audience about our nonprofit mission better Burma at the end of the show. Truth be told, fundraising is hard work. And I can personally attest the fact that it's really no fun to keep asking for contributions. Yet the situation on the ground now in Myanmar is so distressing that we continue to do so on behalf of the Burmese people. What is most helpful at this time are recurring donations, which help alleviate both the stress and time involved in fundraising. If you are able to pledge a certain amount per month, our team can plan around having at least a consistent minimum amount to work within each month. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience Movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission that are Burma. And the donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites accept credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon, Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org. That's betterburma.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar available at alokacrafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's alokacrafts.com. Thank you so much for your kind consideration it's.