Transcript: Episode #214: Whit Hornsberger
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:20
Before we get into today's show, I just want to add a quick reminder that any donations given to our nonprofit better Burma, will be shared directly with those in Myanmar. Any and all donations will make such a difference right now. Go to insight myanmar.org/donation If you would like to contribute, or stay tuned to the end of the episode and hear more options, with that, let's get into the show
0:48
Oh man's got to do the battle that's the way to go. I was too young to look like she wanted more from life than he could give. I said, someone's gotta take care of him.
1:28
A little way that I absolutely hate and it's because I was so upset about it
Host 2:05
I'm excited for this episode to welcome with Hornberger. He is a yoga and meditation teacher, having spent extended periods at the Mahasi center in Yangon before the coup, which also has a connection to Myanmar that we'll get into later in the talk. But we'll be diving into the trajectory of his personal growth from practitioner to teacher, and also go on to explore how he sees the intersection between the inner journey with social engagement. So wit, thanks so much for taking the time to finally connect and have you on here. It's really an honor.
Whit Hornsberger 2:41
Thank you, Joe. It's very nice to be here.
Host 2:44
So let's start off with your story. Long before the spiritual path. I understand that your first real passion was the game of basketball. So can you share with us what drew you to the sport and why you develop such a passion for it? And what aspects of basketball at that time in your youth really resonated with you at a deeper level?
Whit Hornsberger 3:06
Mm hmm. Yeah, well, going back quite a while now. You know, from from a young age, I was drawn to sport and the gift of living in a human body. And I was also very drawn to science. And so I grew up really interested in the truth of nature in science, and as well as sport, and I was fortunate enough to be able to pursue basketball. That's what I focused on specifically to quite a high level. And I was able to receive an athletic scholarship to go to university. And you know, in recent years, I've started to realize, as a result of my meditation practice, why I was so drawn to sport. It really had nothing to do with the winning the championships, whatever it may be, although at the time, I figured that's what it was about. What I now realize is, you know, as I'm sure you're well aware, when an athlete is in the zone, it is a transcendental state, you know, the state of Aneta and so I didn't realize it at that time. But now I realized that that was the big thing that kept me going back to sport was just that experience of being in complete flow and liberation and that's what I got out of basketball.
Host 4:27
was cool so yeah, you reference getting a scholarship you went to the University of Calgary understand the Dinos button, you blew out your ACL and then reflecting back on it. Later you wrote quote, the subsequent emotional and mental suffering inherent and losing one suppose its self identity and self worth. As I began to inquire into the healing of my physical body, and as I pulled back the layers, it became obvious that other dimensions of my being were in dire need of attention and love the healing of my mind, body and heart began and This is where and from there, I have never looked back and quote, so tell us more about how devastated you were when you had this this basketball, career ending injury, and then how unexpectedly it became an opening for this deeper exploration.
Whit Hornsberger 5:14
Yeah, I mean, as I mentioned, from the time I was very young, I was involved in sport, as my mum tells the story, I went from crawling straight to running, there was no walking phase. And so from a very young age growing up, you know, the ego instinct was conditioned to become the character of self, and personified as an athlete. And so as I grew older, and you know, that that character, that persona became more and more developed within the mind. You know, without any judgment towards myself, at the time, I just became very readily identified with that. And my whole life, from the time I was a young child, I just wanted to be a professional athlete, and I put in, you know, an intense and extreme amount of time and, and effort into my, into my athletics. And then, you know, with, I guess I was in my last year of university basketball, and I had a couple of contracts, to go play professional basketball in Europe. And at the start of the preseason camp, we had a new shoe deal, and put on a new pair of shoes, and they were so grippy that when I went to do a pivot move, that was a basic basketball move. Instead of the foot pivoting on the hardwood, the shoe stuck because it was so grippy, and that rotation went up through my knee joint. And, yeah, knee joints aren't supposed to rotate like that. And then I blew my ACL. So, you know, it was, it was a pretty hard fall out for for me, I was misdiagnosed for quite a while I wound up playing on it for a couple months before realizing what was actually going on. And so it was a little bit bittersweet. You know, when I finally received the proper diagnosis that, you know, in the words of the surgeon at the university, he told me, I had completely shredded my ACL, it would have probably been a partial tear when it happened, but then I kept playing on it. So it was devastating, you know, for myself, I'm not a huge stature, I'm about six foot one. So my advantage in sport in basketball was quickness and agility. And although I could have, you know, it's possible to come back from that injury. And continue. You know, at that point in my my life, I had played through so many injuries, so many broken bones, that I just felt it was time to step away from the game that I loved, and to explore other dimensions of life outside of competitive sport. And so from there, I started to, yeah, I was, I was fortunate at the time, you know, I was introduced to yoga by a female friend at university. And at that time, you know, athletic teams weren't using yoga, like they are now. And it was kind of a foreign thing, especially for male athletes. And I didn't get into yoga, and in terms of what we typically see in Western society, like the postures, you know, done in a yoga studio for me, my introduction to yoga was really one of yoga therapy and yoga rehab. And it was about developing a sense of self inquiry through kind of cultivating and awakening witness consciousness, the refuge of awareness. And as I did that, and develop this ability, you know, what we would now call mindfulness that detached receptivity to observe the sensations in my body, I certainly began to realize, you know, there, there were other aspects of my embodiment that I had, you know, largely ignored throughout my life, especially the emotional body in the heart, you know, at that time, when I grew up in the 80s, and 90s, playing sport, and I think still now, and I also grew up playing, you know, American style football in Canada, and you know, the common same big boys don't cry. So, you know, it was a lot of a lot of emotion, and pain, both physical and mental, that had been pushed down, that I didn't even know was there. And it became evident to me as I continued to do my healing on the physical body, that the mental body also had a large amount of healing that needed to be attended to. And that's what kind of got me on to the path that I've now found myself upon for the past. Well, I don't know 18 years, I guess.
Host 9:27
That's quite a lot of introspection and vulnerability and insight into the personal being coming from a place of, as you describe it, just the sport culture, macho male sport culture, and especially at a time, I mean, now there's a lot more awareness about yoga and mindfulness and even mental illness and other things and even in professional sports, you see that but back then very little of that and you're coming from that culture and that conditioning. So as you went on this inner journey of of First yoga and then meditation, but all kind of coming from this place of mindfulness and understanding the body and mind relationship. Did you have any background and, you know, like therapy or, or anything of that nature, which would make you predisposed to being able to open up in this way to these really kind of earth shattering realizations that can come in this moment? Or was this really just a was did this really come with a force of something wholly unknown and new to have to delve into?
Whit Hornsberger 10:31
Yeah, great question. I mean, I think it's hard for me to pinpoint exactly. But I think, you know, as I mentioned, from the time I was a young boy, I was also very interested in science, questioning, you know, the way things were in the world around me, so there was always kind of an introspective aspect to the personality that we call wit. And, you know, I, I was basically doing exactly what not to do to heal and and what I found, my mind was doing was the, the classic aversion to discomfort and the pushing away and, and so I literally was trying to run away from my physical and mental suffering. And I've, you know, now that sport was over, I always had wanted to travel. And I had met a couple Australian friends here on Vancouver Island surfing. And as part of the Commonwealth, they're like, Well, why don't you come to Australia to work and serve for a year. So I did. And I went there, and it was a transformative year of my life. Because I didn't clearly see that I was suffering, but I was, you know, filling my life with all sorts of pleasurable distractions, partying, you know, as much as I love surfing, I was using that to spiritually bypass what needed to be looked at. And I was getting into yoga more and more into yoga at the time starting to read, you know, the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. And I was introduced to Buddhism at the time, as well in Australia, and I came across a book that was, yeah, I guess I would say, kind of the first book I really got on to, or into, with regard to the teachings of the Buddha, and it was by the Dalai Lama, and the title was The Art of happiness. And in that moment, which was a moment of pain and suffering that I was in, when I came across that book, there was like a flash of witness consciousness in my mind. And almost, you know, if I recall correctly, I kind of laughed to myself. And I realized in that moment, and I acknowledged myself, I was certainly not happy. And if this was an art, that is happiness, I wanted to pursue it with as much intention as I did basketball and everything else that I've pursued in my life. So that's kind of what got me going.
Host 12:49
So then how big a gap was there between your first experience of yoga, which was kind of this introduction of some kind of mindfulness and within the body and looking at the pain suppression and ego and everything else? And when you then went to Australia started surfing and read this book by the Dalai Lama, and really, from that book from that line, decide to decided to invest yourself with with a full commitment to that path. What what timeframe are you talking about between that first introduction and the deeper dive?
Whit Hornsberger 13:19
Yeah, well, I guess I tore my ACL at the end of 2004, had surgery at the start of 2005. And by 2007, I was living in Australia. In that window between oh five and Oh, seven, I was definitely continuing to I you know, the way I refer to it as we're not awakening these things, and that's we're reawakening them. So at that time, through my rehab, it was a very tedious process. Because with the graph that they used to reconstruct my ACL, you have to do enough slight, very subtle movement each day. So the graft doesn't become scar tissue, and they have to redo it, but if you do too much, you can tear the graft and then they also have to redo it. So it was a very, very tedious, painstaking process. But I think over the years of playing sport, you know, I've had students asked me, you know, did I do a degree or diploma in anatomy, and I kind of laugh. And the truth is, I didn't, I just spent an incredible amount of time in physiotherapy rooms and dealing with doctors and team trainers because of the injuries. So I think just from being an athlete and a very dedicated one, there was already a deep connection between awareness and the language of sensation in the body. And then that continued to evolve as I got more and more into, you know, a yogic perspective, witness consciousness, and listening to the wisdom of the body. And and then that kind of just snowballed as these books kind of came into my life. And, you know, the one central teaching of that book that I remember, you know, I tell this story, often when I teach retreats that I opened this book, I was reading this book by the Dalai Lama. And you know, it was almost like these children's books, I don't know, if they still have them, they had them around in the 80s and 90s. Of course, they opened, and you know, a cardboard kind of Castle would come up and pop out. And it was almost like the Dalai Lama popped out in cardboard form. And he said, with, if you ever want to be truly happy, you have to be able to discern the difference between pleasure and happiness. And in that moment, it really struck me that everything I was doing in my life was about pleasure. And it was about masking both the physical and the mental, emotional pain. And that really kind of fueled me to understand more about what was going on.
Host 15:49
That's really interesting. And I really enjoy just hearing and appreciating the different stations and contours of the spiritual journey that our guests go on. There are guests I speak to that just have this really soft, gradual awakening of they've, they've become vegan, and then they've started looking at different therapy or working in some organic, some some kind of organic gardening, and then the meditation comes and it just kind of flows in this easy, relaxed way. And then there's the more of the jagged back and forth, which definitely is more my journey of, of having some intense meditative experiences, but still not really ready or knowing how to give up other aspects of, of, of the life that I was leading at the time. And this, or perhaps people also can speak of, you know, well, the these four precepts, I really saw the point of, but this one, this one, I just wanted a couple more years. And usually that one either is something to do with intoxication or something to do with, with, with sexuality, those are the ones that really, that that people have a hard time giving up that last one, especially Westerners. And then of course, when you're talking to Burmese, you're, you're looking at a whole different cultural dynamic of the time that they might have spent US political prisoners are in the democracy movement, or their relationship between traditional forms of Buddhism and the more impactful direct experiences of awakening and in feeling their own agency. So it's interesting to hear with that context in mind, it's interesting to then reflect on this two year period, you talk about where the yoga is, at first, introducing new ways of looking at things through a mindful way, which through your background, and as an athlete, of knowing your body and sensations you have, but it's opening up new doorways, surfing is playing a role getting being in touch with nature and enjoying that and yet, also up until that Dalai Lama line realizing that your part of you at least is still moving in some direction of pleasure over happiness, and there's some elements you're not quite ready to give up to go deeper into that path. Is that a correct way of understanding it? Yeah,
Whit Hornsberger 18:05
that's absolutely it. You know, I, I recall, two years, after a couple years after I got back from Australia, I guess in Oh, nine, maybe 10. When I went on my first vipassana retreat, actually, with the Spirit, rock crew, Jack Kornfield, in the lake, down in Joshua Tree, California, and I remember, you know, hearing a talk about Dukkha suffering, and I remember sitting there and there was this voice of my, my, the self and the ego instinct inside my head and thinking, you know, like, what's, what's wrong with all these people around me, you know, why why are they suffering so much still, even at that point, blind and Miss perceiving what suffering actually was, you know, and so, so, it was, you know, this gradual kind of systematic unraveling of misperception and as the Buddha you know, referred to it, the removal of dust from from the eye of the mind, you know, so it wasn't like this, you know, kind of black and white, all of a sudden, it was just like a spontaneous moment of like, seen clearly, it was like, you know, the, the mind had been so conditioned in one way. And as you know, the quote that you shared, it was like, it at that time, I thought I had lost my identity, you know, I had no idea who I was or what my worth was anymore. And that really drove me into, you know, a very dark place in my mind, and a sense of unworthiness, and, and really a very dangerous place in my mind. And, you know, I, I really feel that the teachings of the Buddha and yoga as well, you know, saved my life, literally and figuratively speaking. So
Host 19:48
you're talking about the loss of identity, meaning that you can no longer practice sport.
Whit Hornsberger 19:52
Yeah, exactly. You know, I guess just my whole life. The construct of self was based upon what I I could do athletically, you know, I went to school had that paid for, because I could dribble a ball between my legs and shoot a three point shot. You know, and so, you know, this construct of self, we often think is just, you know, something that's created within our own minds. But of course, it's a patchwork quilt of everyone and everything that's around us. And so when I was involved in sport my whole life, you know, I kind of think of it, like, I was literally raised in a locker room, you know, around teammates, and coaches, and it was an amazing experience. But when that all ended very abruptly, you know, I really had no idea who or what I was, and, and as that kind of, you know, carpet was pulled out from underneath me, it felt very, you know, unstable and scary. And it was from there that, you know, I remember with the Yoga Sutras, when I first picked up a copy of that. And I remember one of the things that, you know, referred to as, like, it was saying, you know, who you think you are, is not who you actually are, and having a scientific, you know, inspired type mind, from the time I was a child, that really got me super interested, which was, you know, fascinating for me, because, you know, when I was an athlete, or coach, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, at that time, you know, athletes weren't using yoga. And if you went to a yoga studio, you know, it was all female teachers and female practitioners for the most part. And so when I, before my injury, we had a yoga teacher come in, and, and my coach brought, brought her in, and we did a session. And he asked me after I was the captain of the team at the time, and he said, you know, what, what do you think, should we continue with this, and, you know, I ignorantly responded to him. And as I share this, I share this with my students, I said, you know, with all due respect, coach, yoga is for girls. And then I walked back to the weight room and continued with, you know, the macho type, a driven work ethic that can be helpful, but when it goes to an extreme, as it often does, in sport, and in western contemporary society, you know, basically what happened was, I was carrying too much strength and muscle for my frame. And so you know, I say it was the chute gripped. That was part of it. But it was because there was too much torque in the muscles of my legs for the frame of my skeleton, and my ligament just wasn't designed to hold that much strength. And so you know, the irony that now I'm doing what I'm doing is, is very humbling, to say the least.
Host 22:34
That's an amazing story. That's, that's great. All right, I want to get on to talk about this burgeoning spiritual path that you took on and those insights before we do, I just want to tie a bow and the basketball thing being myself being also a former basketball player and fan, although nowhere near your level, something I was always a love of mine and something I've had a relationship with, as I've come back to as well. So just looking back on how you look at basketball now, I'm curious, do you do you still watch basketball? Do you ever play pickup games? And if so, what's your relationship to it? How do you feel about it now that you've, you've come back after such a journey from what you were before?
Whit Hornsberger 23:13
Huh? Well, very cool. I didn't know that about you, Joe. That's awesome. I'd love to get together and get some shots of at some point. Sure. Yeah, you know, now it I'm still interested in what I'm interested in is is human performance, whether that's physical and or mental, and which of course, it's both, you can't have one without the other. So, to me, I have no interest in who wins or loses. You know, people ask me, you know, what's your favorite team? I grew up worshipping Michael Jordan. So it was the bulls but you know, I don't follow leagues anymore. But I'm still interested in seeing, you know, the performance of athletes both in basketball, track and field football, soccer, whatever it may be. I don't go shoot very often, I had a second knee surgery on the same knee a few years later, so I have no cartilage in that joint. So bouncing around on even a hardwood floor, let alone concrete slab is not preferable to my knee joint. But I still love it, you know, and it was an incredible journey. I had so much joy from it. I made so many great friendships, of course over the years. And, you know, really, it's it's amazing to me how much it crosses over into meditation practice, as I mentioned, the transcendental experience. And also for me being of smaller stature, I played point guard. And so you know, being in that position where you have nine other guys on the floor, and you're reading, you know, with open awareness what is going on, and it's all uncontrollable. It's all you know, impermanent, changing and very rapid speed. That that what I've realized is that development of my brain through the awareness of being a point guard and having to read plays like that has been, you know, very helpful and supportive in Vipassana, where you're also developing kind of that detached awareness of seeing how these things operate, how they're interconnected, where they're coming from and where they're going.
Host 25:13
So you must love guys like your kitchen. Oh, right.
Whit Hornsberger 25:16
Oh, yeah, it's so it's so good to see that.
Host 25:19
So how about when you watch basketball now, when when you're watching as a viewer and understand you're not watching for teams, or, or, or those kinds of victories or legacies, but more individual formance. But you're also watching with awareness of the mind and body rather than just oh, God, I hope this team wins, or I hope that loses or maybe that is something animating. But then there's another part of the mind that's like, Oh, look at this attachment. Isn't this interesting, because meditation is not a journey of trying to prevent or control those reactions, but rather to understand and to observe them. And so those reactions can still come and we could just have awareness. But as you're watching a basketball game, Do you Do you notice anything inside your mind about the way that you're, you're? You're you're kind of looking at this practice, which was such an important part of your upbringing.
Whit Hornsberger 26:10
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, a lot of the time when I am watching, I'm just thinking, I wish I could have a chance to sit down with some of these athletes. And, you know, I do I have worked with athletic teams. In the past, I lived in Vancouver for a few years, I was working with both the UBC, University of British Columbia, men's and women's basketball teams, some athletes from those programs have gone on to play pro basketball in Europe, and I've worked a little bit with them, it is something I'd like to get back into, at some point. Because, you know, as I said, to me, as I explained, when I teach for pasta, you know, it's all about living efficiently. And, and sport is also about being the most efficient. And, you know, in terms of athletic, physical athletic prowess, I'm not going to say we're at the pinnacle, because everything's always changing, but the level of athleticism nowadays, is incredible. And yet, and yet, I still see that the mind still has so much more than that it can attain for athletes to take them to that next level. And so, you know, I always looked at basketball is a very interesting sport, and, you know, talking about this construct of self and, you know, transcending it when you're in flow, or you're in the zone, you know, basketball is a really interesting sport, because when you're in the flow of the game, and you're in the zone, you're not thinking, you know, I'm with the point guard this and that, or whatever, you're, you're in the game. But then in basketball, of course, you have fouls, and so you get fouled, and the game stops, the flow literally stops, and you go to the foul line. And now all of a sudden, the construct of self starts to come on online, and it starts to remember was it the last shot free throw, was it a miss a remake, if you're, you know, playing in, in opposing gym, the fans are yelling your name, trying to get you to miss maybe the announcers saying, you know, wit Hornberger, to the line for two. And that's part of that patchwork quilt where all of a sudden, you know, you see athletes who could be very good shooters from the field, but then they get to the foul line, and the construct of self comes back online. And all of a sudden, their percentage drops way below what it should be for what is called a free throw. So I look at that, and and, you know, as I say to students, sometimes I'm like, imagine if we could get athletes to be able to perform, and be constantly in a transcendental state in flow. And then as I quickly say, you know, at the end of the day, who really cares about wins or losses, imagine if we could get humanity to be in a consistent state of flow, transcending the limitations of the conditioned self that gives rise to all this Dukkha. So I certainly do look at athletics from a different perspective now,
Host 28:54
far from that's so great, I'd love to have you as a color commentary on one of those games to be awesome. But um, but let's go into the journey which informed you with this kind of insight and awareness in watching the basketball game or anything else? And you had referenced that I think you said your first meditation experience was was Spirit Rock. Can you describe that course? And then the subsequent journey that you took after that?
Whit Hornsberger 29:23
Yes. So before I went on that retreat, I was doing a lot of study and home practice and going to yoga classes and getting introduced to Buddhist mindfulness. And then, but that was my first formal meditation retreat. And yeah, down in Joshua Tree, it was an amazing experience. pretty overwhelming. You know, I can't recall for certain, but there must have been, I think 150 or more practitioners there. And, you know, one thing I do recall When I was there is having, you know, the the, the demographic was, I will say, you know, my body's turning 41 next month. So it was it was kind of a little bit older than that, like, you know, 4550 and up. And I remember those individuals, a lot of them before we went into silence, were saying to me, you know, they're just looking at me, I guess I would have been like, 2627 at the time just saying, you know, I wish I would have found this stuff at that age. And, you know, so I went into that retreat. And, as I said, you know, previously, I didn't even really realize how much I was suffering I or I didn't really understand truly what Dukkha is, you know, it's Dukkha suffering, it's something I think, to the Western mind, the connotation of, of suffering is this extreme experience, which it can be certainly, or it can arise from an extreme life experience. But you know, it's also these very mundane, trivial, day to day, moments that we have of dissatisfaction and discontent. And, you know, as I say, to practitioners, you know, do as I say, not as I do, I learned a lot from doing things I probably shouldn't have been doing, you know, with the injuries I had coming from sport into meditation, there was absolutely no reason I should have been sitting on the floor, trying to sit cross legged during that retreat. But the ego was still in control. And I didn't want to be the young, the young one sitting on the chair, you know, and, and I sat through an incredible amount of physical pain in that experience. But I learned a lot from it, you know, I began to see the difference between, you know, pain in the body and suffering in the mind. And I remember one experience on that retreat, specifically where Jack Kornfield was leaving to sit, and I, I was sitting there and there was so much physical discomfort and aversion towards it, that the body would mind and body was so tense that there was sweat dripping down my back. And at that time, my mind couldn't discern the difference. Really, I just felt that all that pain was in the physical body. And then, without maybe even being too aware of it, there was so much you know, Taha like wanting for Jack to ring the bell. And then at the moment, he rang the Tibetan belta and the sit, there was this flood of release of tension within the body. And I remember sitting there and having this aha moment where there was still some physical discomfort. I'm not saying by any means that the mind just makes up physical pain, there was physical discomfort, no question. But when the mind got what it wanted, and that is the ringing of the bell, you know, Taha had been satiated, so there is no more craving, no more wanting, and all of a sudden, that tension released from the body, and I sat there thinking myself, you know, I could have kept sitting for longer. It was It wasn't the physical body, it was the mind. And that was one of the major insights I took from that experience that what often appears to be all physical pain is invariably physical pain, yes, corroborated exponentially, and compounded exponentially by mental aversion and tension and resistance.
Host 33:21
Right, that's a great summary and encapsulation of really profound insight from a first meditation course. And so then where did that take you? You had your continuing on your trajectory of having started with yoga and then going having this line from the Dalai Lama really speak out to you having a really excruciating but powerful course with these insights that you take away. What was next for your meditation journey after that?
Whit Hornsberger 33:47
Mm hmm. Yeah. So I started kind of I dove headfirst into the healing journey. And I wound up starting a course of Chinese medicine, here to Lustick School in Victoria on Vancouver Island. And, you know, it was a five year course I'd done an undergrad degree, I'd gone traveling in between, so I kind of had the travel bug. And about six months, six months into that course, they announced a Diploma of yoga therapy and, and that resonated with me a lot and the fact that it was a year long course, and so I changed faculties. And I did this diploma of yoga therapy, which really was my first introduction to yogic education. So it was, you know, not yoga as workout it was yoga as therapy, both for body and mind. And then from there, I wanted to continue to pursue surfing and I caught wind of a school of yoga down in Costa Rica, which is no longer there, led by two teachers who were formerly living in an ashram and for almost 20 years and they had gotten married and moved down there and So I went down there, and I spent, you know, six months studying yoga with them. And that was an incredible experience really, just for my own understanding, it was a teacher training. But, you know, I was petrified of public speaking. And when I was younger, when I was an athlete, you know, when I was inflow on the court, I had, you know, the mind was confident, but once that flow was over, you know, you know, speaking to reporters after the game, or interviews, it really wasn't my thing. So I never intended on teaching. And so I went and did that training. And then from there, my body was still such a wreck that, you know, I couldn't really do any other type of work, I couldn't do physical labor, I couldn't sit down in a chair at a desk, I couldn't stand up for very long periods. So as I mentioned previously, you know, when I was getting into these things, the yoga studios were predominantly if not completely, you know, female yoga teachers. And so I had this new teacher training degree, if you want to call it that. And I went, you know, door to door to these yoga studios. And I wouldn't even finish the opening sentence after they heard that I had done a teacher training, they wanted me to come teach, because they just wanted to have some male teachers on the teaching roster. That opened a lot of doors literally and figuratively speaking. And then from there, I got more into mindfulness practice, started going to retreats down at land of medicine, Buddha, near Santa Cruz, and combine that with a surf trip up in Washington State at Cloud mountain, and then close to Vancouver Island here in between Vancouver island and the mainland, what was formerly known as the Buddhist Hermitage, I was going up there and doing retreats, you know, minimum once a year, sometimes I was doing two, sometimes three a year. And so, you know, as my personality has always been, if, if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it, you know, with all my energy, or I don't do it at all, I see it as a waste of time. So I really went in with, you know, spiritual urgency, some juega. And, and that kind of just led one thing to another. And teaching yoga allowed me to make, you know, not much money whatsoever, at that time. But it allowed me to keep my body moving as as I made a little bit of money. And so that just kept going and you know that now it's going on, like 1314 years of teaching, I would have never guessed that's where I would be so.
Host 37:28
So as you started to go deeper into this meditation practice, and I also want to mention the yoga journey, kind of trying to figure out whether it's easier to talk about it sequentially. And chronologically or, or look at mapping out these these different journeys in these respective fields. And then looking later when they come back together. And I think that might make more sense. But so just for the moment, just looking at the more meditation part of it. And the practice that you were doing, I understand your first course was with Jack Kornfield, and Spirit Rock. There are so many different forms of meditation out there and so many different types of teachings and emphases. How did you decide on what style or practice or teaching or lineage you wanted to start to go into and learn?
Whit Hornsberger 38:15
Yeah, you know, it's funny to me now, because amongst other forms of ignorance and misperception of my mind on that first retreat, I didn't even realize at the time that what Jack was instructing and through books, I was reading of his that I was learning the Mahasi method. And so, you know, at that time, it was that was my first vipassana retreat. But then I recall actually coming back and that summer, I started to hear, you know, a lot of people talking about Vipassana and it was like this trendy thing. And, you know, for better for worse, I was always one that was skeptical of trends. And with ignorance, I just decided I was like, you know, what, I'm going to focus on on samatha like practices. And so I really started to dive into calm abiding meditation. And, and then I was introduced, I came across two teachers cut to sorrow and tennis, Sarah, good to sorrow from Tennessee, originally to Minnesota. She is from the UK. And they met through the lineage of a John Cha Katsaros spent many years in the Thai Forest Tradition, first went to Oxford on a scholarship and then met a John Shaw in the UK in the 70s, and saw the truth of Dhamma and dropped out. And so, you know, when I look back on it, Joe, I don't remember any conscious decision to choose a lineage. I think at that time, too. I wasn't ignorant to the fact that there were different lineages. I think at the time there was just no clarity to me about what the differences were from Tera Vaada and to Tibetan to Mahayana. Uh, whatever it may be. And these were just the teachers that kind of came into my life where I came to theirs or a little bit of both. And then it just went from there, you know, that's just what I was exposed to at the time I didn't even know about going the persona, you know, it's just kind of how it how it flowed. And from there, then I spent my time really focusing in the Mahasi tradition, and the tradition of Argent Cha. And then combined with some intellectual teachings and wisdom from the Thai Forest Tradition of Adyen, Buddha dasa,
Host 40:38
right. And all of these different teachings and lineages kind of have their own their own emphases and protocols and everything. When I think of Mahasi, I think of much more of a technique style. And obviously, I'll be Dhamma background and possibly, depending on how it's disseminated Burmese cultural aspects in there as well, when I think of Thai Forest Tradition and John John such, I think less of a technique and more I mean, because in the Thai Forest Tradition, so much of their, their living and their, their, their spiritual growth and their understanding of Dharma was through nature was through the experience of confronting nature sometimes in you know, really hardcore and crazy and intense ways. When you read about some of those stories of the Old Thai Forest masters I've never taken. I've never been to a Thai Forest center outside of Thailand, I did go to some in Thailand, but those were much more in the in the Thai way of not really technique based but more on, on having nature inform you and kind of being around the the wisdom of these great masters who might try to their tutoring style in the monastery was more focused on on imparting certain lessons through the structure of who they were tutoring, that they might be tutoring for years and years and years, these novice monks that come often Westerners, rather than, say, a Mahasi, your Glinka style, where you just get a flat technique for a certain period of time. And that technique is, then the teacher will then try to show and prove how the format of this technique and the technical matters of the the teaching of it align with different parts of the suit doesn't such and so, as you were combining this own spiritual path that you had, I wonder, like, to what degree were you encompassing different techniques? To what degree were you kind of resting on one technique, but then hearing wise and inspiring words from someone else that would just that would more orient you to the core technique you're practicing? And how would you describe that?
Whit Hornsberger 42:45
Hmm, yeah, well put your Yeah, you know, I think, for me, what was among other things, so helpful with the fallout of the basketball injury was that I learned a hard lesson of identifying with, you know, one path, you know, I identified with, you know, I was an athlete, and not realizing that that was a Nietzsche an impermanent state, it caused me that relationship or that identification, that attachment caused extreme suffering in my life. So when I started to get into the teachings of the Buddha and yoga as well, I didn't even necessarily need any willpower to do it, it was just kind of very natural for me to not become identified as a Buddhist meditator or identified as a meditator of this lineage and not that lineage. And so for the first like, five, maybe six years of my path of meditation, I really kind of experienced different teachers, all with a common ground, of course, not only the common ground of the Buddha Dharma, but you know, of Tera Vaada Buddhism. And as a result of that, like, as you alluded to, I gain great benefit, because the Mahasi method is very, very specific to the point of, you know, a rigorous scientific investigation, which I love. And then I had that kind of, almost, if you will, like, young like approach to training the mind, combined with kind of a more Yin laid back approach of John Shaw, who is, you know, by all accounts, quite a quite a character, you know, quite a humorous fellow. And as you mentioned, in the Thai Forest traditions, they used a lot of the natural teachings of the environment around them, the Dhamma of nature itself to give rise to insight. And so for me, that really resonated deeply, you know, aside from sport, and science, you know, growing up in Canada, our family we grew up, you know, camping all the time and spending lots of time in nature. Sure. So there was this really nice balance of it. And I didn't feel at that time any, any pressure from teachers or any need to say, Okay, this is 100%, the path that I'm going on. And then, then I did, you know, eventually once I went to Myanmar for the first time and Mahasi center there, that's when I really started to go deeper and deeper onto that path. Because I spent an extensive period of time there, I really saw results from that experience. And yet still, to this day, you know, in my own practice, I still incorporate a lot of the wisdom and understanding of John Cha John Buddha dasa. And not to the point where I feel like it's hindering my progress, but where it's supporting it, and yes, so that's kind of what's led me to where I am right now, in my practice.
Host 45:54
So is it fair to say that you're, you're more of a, a Mahasi, practitioner of the technique with the inspiration and the guidance and the examples of life from the Thai Forest Tradition? But would that be a fair statement of your practice?
Whit Hornsberger 46:08
Yeah, I think that would be quite bang on actually, you know, I've nothing against the methods of John Cha, you know, from from what I've experienced, you know, the agencia method, if you can call it that, you know, it was more of this open refuge of awareness. And having said that, the Mahasi method at a certain point, you know, as I often say to students, and I don't encourage it, because the mind often wants to take the training wheels off before it's ready. But eventually, the noting of the Mahasi method, the mental noting, that tool like training wheels, is I won't say disposed of completely, but it's not necessarily needed at all times. And then it's sometimes when the mind is lacking energy and or focus, that noting practice is very helpful to lift the minds attention up. But at the end of the day, refuge of awareness, that Arjun Chas talking about and that Mahasi is using the noting to get to, is the same refuge of awareness.
Host 47:08
I haven't ever practiced Mahasi, per se, but from what I've read, and other practitioners I've talked to, I think it's a bit of an unfair criticism they've received from those that that tried to describe why the Mahasi technique is perhaps not the best vehicle is the noting and describing that you can never really get to a depth of the mind beyond this. And any serious masih practitioner I've talked to is said some version of what you mentioned. And one of the first interviews we ever did in Insight Myanmar was with Alan Clements, who was an American monk during the 1980s and beyond in Burma, so at a time when it was quite close, and he was one of the only ones there. And he talked about how, with Mahasi as well as Pandita, he saw hundreds of different questions and answers with all kinds of practitioners. And he went on to say and this is this has become somewhat of a controversial statement others have have refuted that. The way he put it, but just to kind of give an example of of how it could be described. He said there's no such thing as a Mahasi technique. He said that it was there was so many different variations based on interactions with students and the profound wisdom that the teacher had, that this culmination of advice ended up going into understate, you know, as it got exported, and others carried it in different ways. It got exported into a basic structure and vehicle of teachings which could be delivered and then called Mahasi. But for people like Alan Clements that were up close and personal, they saw it as much more wide ranging. And that's very different from the Glinka story where Glinka is very much delivering a set technique and not only delivering that technique, but supposing that this technique, even though this isn't true, as people have found out, I've since come to learn this technique is the, the exact technique that the lineage he's claiming, has also been practicing in previous generations. And so the that emphasis and identification on not just the technique, but the value of the technique and the lineage as before that carried it. That's, that's different from what has come to be known as Masie technique, but then that's different altogether from like, the, you know, Mahasi and glencar. Kind of on one part of it then looking at something like John Shaw, or who, who I have practice with, say, a booty geneia in Burma, that also promotes an open kind of awareness. Where when you if you were to look at, you know, John Chow or booty, Junya and be asked the question, what is what is the technique, you know, from, say, Mahasi you're going to meditate or what is the technique that's actually being taught here? One is kind of hard pressed to come up with it. I mean, certainly, you can without dontcha, you can go to the Bhutto, Bhutto of a breath or with mutation, Nia, you can you can quote some preliminary basic instructions but beyond that, There's really nothing like you find in some of the corpse retreat methods of of a Glencoe or Mahasi lineage practitioner.
Whit Hornsberger 50:08
Hmm, yeah, I, I agree with what you're saying. And, yeah, it's interesting because Alan Clemens actually, years ago, when I was living in Vancouver, he became a yoga student of mine. I mean, I had no idea who he was, he was always up in the front row. And that's how I was first introduced to the Mahasi meditation center in Myanmar. So that's where I have a connection with Alan, he invited me to go there. For the first time, that's how I was introduced to the Mahasi method, not the Mahasi method, I shouldn't say that. But the the Mahasi monastery in Yangon. So, you know, based upon what he said, I don't think I'm really in the position to be able to comment on that, but whether you know, there's actually a method or not, whatever it is, but I think, you know, at the end of the day, at least from what I have gleaned from different traditions, and different teachers, you know, the, these, these methods, and these lineages are bringing us to that same refuge of detached receptivity, where we can see things as they are, and, you know, I think with them Hoshea method too. And with any method, I think, you know, As the Buddha said in his first ever sermon, patient endurance is the supreme practice for freeing the heart from unwholesome states. And I think the Mahasi method can be difficult for practitioners at first because you know, a practitioners, we want to be in kind of this like flow state and feel good, and you bring in mental noting at first, if we're not used to doing it, it takes a lot of mental energy, it's tiring, it can actually give rise to more thinking. And I wouldn't say that any method is the right method for everyone. But what I began to find with the Mahasi method that I found really helpful was using the mental noting, it allowed me to use that noting in the mind as a barometer to see if I was actually noting with true mindfulness. And what I mean by that is, you know, mindfulness being a complete detached, awareness of of momentary experience. It's very difficult when there's any unpleasant phenomena, whether it's physical and or mental, coming up in the mind, for mind that hasn't been trained for many years to just, you know, to note, unpleasant, unpleasant, with complete equanimity. And so for many years, I thought that I was noting with mindfulness. But as I share with students, you know, just as when we speak to each other as human beings, I might say something to Joah, and not realize that there's a tone in the way I say it. And then when you receive it completely changes the meaning of what I'm trying, I thought I was trying to say to you. And similarly, what I found found very helpful with Mahasi method was, I began to realize that even though I thought the mind was noting, with true Sati, to mindful, true mindfulness, in other words, imbued with metta loving kindness, what I began to realize is that, you know, Tun Ha, and Oupa Donna craving and attachment is extremely subtle. And so it takes time, you know, for whether using a noting method or not for the mind to be able to truly receive unpleasant experiences that for time immemorial, it's been pushing away from with complete equanimity. And when I finally had this aha moment, where I realized I was noting, but it wasn't that there wasn't true loving awareness, that there was these traces of Taha that allowed me to use the noting practice as this barometer where I began to see okay, there's still attachment. In that note, even though it sounds in my mind, that there's not, I could look closer and closer and begin to see, okay, this is not true mindfulness, yet its present, I'm present with what's arising. But the mind isn't completely accepting with metta, what is arising and that's what I found very, very helpful to me using that note in practice as a barometer, in terms of the tone that the note in mind may be using.
Host 54:30
Right, so let's go a bit deeper into that Mahasi practice and from where it originated, you mentioned how you were compelled to go to Burma to practice there. Can you talk about what led to that decision, and then describe that experience and reference how impactful it was talk a bit about what was so profound about that experience, especially after you'd already been on this path for some time and taking a number of courses over on this side of the ocean, how going over there really made A big difference from what you've been doing over here in North America.
Whit Hornsberger 55:05
Yeah, I mean, it was certainly life changing. And, you know, as I mentioned, Alan invited me to go at that time, he took a couple groups he was doing, I can't remember, if they were to two week retreats. With a week off in between, and I wound up going, we agreed together, you know, I wound up going for the entire time. So this was my first time in an Asian monastery. And I think it was like 47 or 48 days in the Mahasi. Center. And certainly, it was a very, very challenging experience. You know, the, the expectations of the wanting mind, I remember thinking like, oh, yeah, I'm going to Southeast Asia to a Buddhist monastery, this is going to be very serene and quiet, not realizing that it's in the middle of Yangon. You know, I don't know about all Buddhist monasteries, but the Mahasi monastery, it's like, it's like a little town, you know, so you have your vehicles driving around, you won't doing construction with power tools. And I remember going there and just the sounds were overwhelming. And then of course, you know, the ego instinct is playing the story, like, you know, how much will it cost to change my flight to go home? You know, how could these people be so disrespectful, I've come all the way from Vancouver to work on my spirituality, you know, the whole narrative of wanting mind. So, you know, it took some, it took some time, and that's scheduled from 3am to 11pm, you know, two meals a day 5am Breakfast 10am lunch, and the Mahasi style of moving incredibly, slowly throat every movement of the day was obviously challenging. But it really gave me the chance to, to go deeply into the practice and also to really see, you know, as challenging as the conditions were that conditions aren't the source of my suffering, you know, as much as the the mind was pointing the finger outwardly. I had, you know, at that time, I think there was 400 500, monastics, monks and nuns and laypeople. And so I couldn't hide from the fact that when I was suffering, and I looked at, you know, these monks and nuns with a smile on their face doing the same work, that I had to acknowledge that okay, the suffering isn't something outside of me, that the trigger is inside. And so that was a really, you know, profound experience to see, you know, how much wanting there was, it was just constant wanting, it was hot 40 degrees. And Ito's you know, it was a retreat of of Taha, which is, you know, As the Buddha said, we suffer, because we don't see our suffering, and we don't, and we suffer because we don't see the cause of our suffering nothing else. And so that experience was, you know, like a bachelor degree in Tantra. And it radically shifted the way I was looking at things or the mind was looking at things.
Host 58:00
Reminds me of that famous story of John's tomato, the American disciple of John Shaw. He's told many times where he was in his young monkhood, he was at John Shaw's forest monastery and just suffering, suffering, suffering unhappy with everything. And eventually, John Shaw walked over to him and said, you know, this unhappiness you have? Is it in the monastery? Or is it in you, because if it's in the monastery, it's very easy, you should just go away and then you won't have this unhappiness anymore. But if it's in you will, then you're kind of in a bit more of a pickle, because going into the leaving the monastery isn't really going to do anything. And that was the kind of like this zen like moment of a conversation that sparked Johnson Meadows spiritual path, and many decades that would follow that, that that realization that the suffering wasn't him, it wasn't in the monastery, and that leading would not do anything for it. And that made him redouble his efforts as a monk and become quite a respected monk today. So story reminds me of what you said.
Whit Hornsberger 59:04
Yeah, absolutely. And as you say, that, you know, it reminds me of something I often share with students, you know, that my father, you know, told me from a young age and still to this day, he says that from time to time, you know, he's, he's, he would say wit, be careful when you point the finger at someone else, because if you look closely, there are three fingers pointing back at you. And, you know, that's, that's the the wanting mind that, you know, it's amazing how obvious it becomes once the refuge of awareness has developed. And it's incredible how how blind the conditioned mind is to the constant and you know, at least in my mind, at that time in my life, the unceasing wanting of things to be other than they are or things to stay, when, when they're going my way, whatever, it may be constant tanha all day long, you know?
Host 59:52
Yeah. And it reminds me also of what mutation Nia would say that when a meditator would come and report their contentment and contentment and satisfaction fulfillment in the practice and living a simple life and he would just kind of shake his head and flip his hand and say, conditions, conditions, all conditions. And you know what conditions? I don't remember if he actually said this, but something that he said would spark me to think more about his teaching and what he was getting at was okay, well, what conditions would change could change now that would affect your happiness? What if your awareness got less? What if? What have you you had a great loss material or personal loss? Or what if, what if you had an injury to your body or you know, just all these different scenarios that you can display and realize that whatever level of contentment you thought you were having in terms of the meditation was still he was just getting at, keep working under these conditions, you know, keep, keep focusing on the the conditional nature of your happiness and was really pretty, pretty hardcore with wanting with not wanting to let meditators or monastics off easy in terms of what their attachments and their conditioned reality really were, and not stop them midway along that exploration of the journey?
Whit Hornsberger 1:01:12
Yeah, absolutely. Joe, and, you know, I've had a students ask me, you know, because I describe kind of the experience in the monastery, and, you know, to them, it doesn't sound that great, you know, and they say, so why do you do it, and, you know, one of my responses to them over the years has been, because there's absolutely nothing in the monastery experience that is pleasurable to my dopamine receptors, you know, there's, there's nothing, you know, on Western retreats, you know, my, my good friend, he's our cook, and the food is very nutritious, and it's a highlight of the day, but in the monastery, there's nothing to look forward to when it comes to wanting mine. And I remember, you know, just it was, it becomes comical, you know, I say to students, it's like once you get to a certain point, and the mind is just watching itself, which is what an incredible gift that is, it becomes somewhat humorous, if not very humorous. And I remember one time in that first visit to the monastery, and the 40 day or whatever it was period, I was there. At the at lunch, I'm sitting there on the floor with the other monastics. And all of a sudden, a hand reaches down in front of me and puts a bowl of ice cream. And I couldn't believe it. And it was so delicious. But of course, from that day, on, every time there was a body through the room, the mind thinking, Oh, is it ice cream again? And I kid you not joy. I never had ice cream again, not only on that visit, or on my other visit to the monastery, so yeah, exactly. You know, and then that's the big thing. If if our happiness is dependent upon conditions, then that comes back to that teaching of the Dalai Lama that I first received. And it's not it's not happiness, you know, from the perspective of the Buddha, you know, that happiness is always unconditional. And if it's based upon conditions, then it's pleasure. And there's nothing inherently wrong with pleasure until we attach to it and believe that it's happiness.
Host 1:03:08
Right, I have my own ice cream meditation Burma story, that my first the first time I know, it wasn't my first blank, of course, it was it was a later going, of course, I was taking a course at dama Jyoti Glinka center, and I was the the only western male there was like me and like 100 Burmese men. And one time in the dining hall. As I was finishing my meal, a server walked over and gave me and only me a cup of ice cream. And I was like, this is like, some weird like, sip test of like, you know, what it's like to just kind of single someone out with something good. And I felt so uncomfortable because I was and I was also coming. I was, I hadn't been in Myanmar that long. So I was really conditioned by Western styles of running monastery already meditation centers and courses and, you know, how you and just all the stuff behind the scenes and so I just felt, and but then I knew enough about Burmese culture, and especially a I had been in Asia for some time. So I knew about, you know, Asian face and stuff. And I was just going through in my mind, like, should I refuse it because if I decline it, then, you know, I'm kind of showing solidarity with other meditators and not just seeking my own pleasures, but then the the people who gave this to me that were doing it out of kindness, they'll feel it was a slap in the face. But then, if I if I eat it and enjoy it, I'm like this, you know, this privileged white person that is getting something no one else has, but it's not my fault because they just gave it to me and I'm just kind of stuck in these insane mazes of thought. And then I start to look around in the dining hall where I am because my eyes had been downcast I'm not looking at anyone, and the faces around me, are all glowing with happiness that I have ice cream, like they're looking at me with expectation, and, and, and, and compassionate, you know, warmth and generosity that like us. Great, you get to have ice cream, and and all of a sudden it breaks through. And I just realized there's nothing wrong with this, they're happy and I ate the ice cream. And I don't remember enjoying the ice cream. I remember enjoying the fact that someone had given me something nice and everyone around me was enjoying that I got to have it. And so it was this kind of distillation and understanding of Burmese culture and silence, that that always stayed with me. And that made me realize the Western wet style of thinking I was approaching this when those dynamics even though and this is something I get to when I talk to people about Burma is that so often before you go into answering into providing certain answers, the questions themselves have to be unpacked the questions and especially when you're looking at mindfulness and meditation and monasticism, when you're coming from that field, the questions that are coming are are coming from such a different place that they can't really be answered in that context. And that's what was happening to me in Burma is the questions I was asking about a white Westerner being the one privilege to enjoy a certain ice cream that no one else had access to. That was the wrong question. Because as soon as I understood the context and the culture and the generosity, I realized that I was creating a dynamic that didn't exist for anyone else. And that allowed me to let go of it. And that was kind of one more step along the way of my own Burmese journey. And that segues into the question I wanted to ask you, as well as is the is the experience of being at the monastery, you've talked about it a little bit in terms of just the austere nature and the lack of comforts and the intensive atmosphere and such. But going a bit deeper into it, you're in a Burmese monastery, a mini city or this is Mahasi Sasana. Yet that this is also hit a historic place of kind of the epicenter of the lay mindfulness movement in Burma in the post war period under who knew. So it also is a play, it's a it's a meaningful place to a lot of Burmese, culturally, religiously, traditionally, everything else. You're coming from just a completely different life story and trajectory and conditioning. And so can you go a bit more into the detail of what it was like living day after day in a Burmese monastery in Burma?
Whit Hornsberger 1:07:18
Yeah, I mean, it certainly was a culture shock. You know, I traveled a lot my life. But I'd never been to Myanmar, and I hadn't spent time in a Buddhist monastery. But you know, what, what struck me the most was just kind of how you described, you know, the icecreams experience, just the sympathetic joy and the contentment of everyone in the in the monastery, not just the practitioners, but I remember, you know, every morning, you know, lining up for breakfast and lunch, and I was, you know, usually the last one to go in to the dining hall and, you know, walking in there and seeing, you know, the group of maybe 1012, Burmese ladies who are in there, and they're, you know, cutting up the vegetables, you know, preparing food for lunch, and just with the biggest smiles on their faces, just having the best time all the, you know, stray cats hanging around for a little piece if they can get one, you know, so things like that. Just the way I was treated was, you know, with so much respect and kindness and, and at the same time with, you know, you know, inspiring firmness, you know, that you're here to do the work, that the schedule is an optional, and this isn't a hotel, we're here to get this work done. For me coming from my background in athletics, I really thrive on that, and I thrived on it, you know, instead of having to be the leader, I could be lead because the the work ethic there of everyone, whether they're practitioners or not, but especially the practitioners was impeccable, you know, and, you know, some examples that I bring up on retreat to, to bring light to, you know, what is mindfulness, you know, and it's not just something we do when we're seated cross legged on the floor. And what I what I mean by that is, when I would go into the dining hall, as I said, I'd be, you know, usually the last one to go in, or one of the last, and you'd walk in and there'd be like, 400 to 500 pairs of flip flops perfectly aligned. And in such an order that was it was just incredible, their attention to detail, recognizing that, you know, our mindfulness practice doesn't take breaks. It doesn't just happen when we sit cross legged, you know, we don't live to practice meditation, we practice meditation to live more efficiently. So there were all those examples of, you know, just pure, unadulterated joy and dedicated work ethic. And then you know, the the experience of seeing you know, the, the young Manasa sticks, just, you know, fresh in there don't know how to put their robes on, can't really focus. And then all the way up, you know, the the age demographic to the elderly monks who, you know, they're doing walking meditation a little bit more quickly because of course, the slower you go, the harder more difficult it is to balance and you know, it was just, you know, it was just very endearing and very inspiring to be around a community, and to live in a community like that that was based upon altruism, and based upon taking care of each other, taking care of oneself, to be able to take care of each other. And it was just such a radical departure from the way that Western culture has evolved. And for that I'm, you know, eternally grateful for those experiences.
Host 1:10:47
Yeah, one of the things I would often remark on is that in the West, when you go to a meditation course, as a server, you're cooking the this is assuming those courses where there's not paid staff, but your as in the blanket tradition, you're you're going to serve others and prepare food and clean and serve and everything 10 day course, is just exhausting. I mean, you're you're preparing food for, you know, usually, average core size of a big course would be 70 to 100 people. Often it's more like 30, or 40. And it's it's an extreme amount of work. And then you look at Burma, and they have half a million monastics who are prohibited by their Vineya, the monastic discipline from asking for food, preparing food, buying food, procuring food, growing food, preserving food, doing anything related whatsoever, they can only take what's offered to them, and say what you will about all the other things involved in Myanmar and Burmese Buddhism. And we could definitely go I don't want I'm saying this as a disclaimer, because I don't want to romanticize things, I know that there's a tendency to do that. And it's important to be able to, to speak clearly and honestly about these cultural differences. But leaving aside everything else about that, that one can speak on, that, that could be critical. Just the mere fact that you have a half a million monastics who have these prohibit prohibitions can't eat afternoon, and that up and down the country, they're fed systematically on time in the proper way, so that they have the ability to have their sustenance and continue with their day. When you when you just contrast that with dedicated meditators in the West, who are exhausted by the effort of serving a 10 day course, you know, one time or several times a year, it would just blow my mind that level of dedication to say nothing of how many people are waking up at four in the morning to go to their local, their, their arms round.
Whit Hornsberger 1:12:43
Yeah, I mean, alluding to what you were saying, you know, just the, the remarkable ability of what generosity what Donna could, can do, you know, being in Myanmar and seeing you know, that from the ladies cutting the food up to, you know, the food that is donated, and just the way that everyone takes care of one another, you know, and and how the the monastics are really revered, you know, I when I describe the monastic experience in the monastery, you know, I say to students, I'm like, you probably don't want to go there, you probably wouldn't want to become a monk or a nun, would you and they kind of like nod and affirmation. And, but as I say to them, you know, one thing that struck me when I got to Myanmar was like, leaving the airport I remember seeing like, billboards with with monks on it. And you know, that Lakin, me too, like a memory of like, landing in Los Angeles and driving out of lax, and you've got billboards, but on the billboards, there, it's like the movie stars, whereas in Myanmar, you know, this is considered a very auspicious opportunity to dedicate your life to walking this path. And those that don't have that opportunity. You know, there's no jealousy or envy, it's sympathetic joy. And it's, you know, expressed through generosity and Donna, and it's just, you know, for me, it was very transformative to see a different way of life, and what we have in terms of human potential when we live from our hearts, as opposed to when we're conditioned to live from this, you know, mythology of separation that we have to look out for number one at all costs.
Host 1:14:25
Right. So as you describe your experience in in that Burmese monastery, and you describe the the altruism and the different, all the another thing, actually, that strikes me just now as I'm, as I'm reflecting on what you said, you're also describing the opposite of a one fit a one size fits all model. I mean, just the example of the young novices and the older monks and the different ways they have to navigate. And this was something that had a really profound impact on me as a meditator, the longer I spent in Burma was just realizing how much you know when I started with the Goloka courses in the West. I really saw this as a kind of rarefied vehicle that everyone had to be able to contort themselves into, to derive the benefit from and that was really just what you had to do. Because this was a kind of perfect, idealized messaging that you needed to, to modify yourself in order to be receptive to receive the deeper underlying messages of it, which in my case is a side story. And I talked about this on another podcast with Jonathan Crowley, but myself being an I was in Burma as an educator promoting student centered classroom. So to me, it was kind of this, this height of irony that I was everything about my profession was looking at how to make things more student centered, and I was, I was I was, I was advocating spiritually fitting into a prime Teacher Center and authority center. Way to engage in the practice, but when I came to Burma, that really, I was really confronted with all of these different ways and seeing that, you know, okay, so you're introverted, you're extroverted, you're young, you're old, you're male, you're female, you're, you know, you're, you're, you're busy with family commitments or with work or you have extra time, or you have a bit more money, but no time, but maybe more time and not as much money or you like this style of teaching or this style of study and just seeing this such an extraordinary range of possibility for where you could fit in and what you could do. And then when I would look back on the western model, and not just Glencoe, but just the whole, you know, what it was like trying to export an integrative teaching into the West, and, and consolidated into a retreat setting and realize, on one hand, how valuable that was in, in disseminating something so precious, where people walked away with a true internalized taste of it, which I would never minimize, and that there's so much value in that. But then on the other hand, how there was just no substitute for being able to, to break down some of those artificial barriers that I think Western teachers and teachings and platforms put on what you find in Myanmar, as well as that lack of an integrative approach where you I think, by and this is not so much a criticism on the model they're presenting, because I don't know what the alternatives are, where there is some version of a one size fits all model that when you come to Burma, you get to see that whatever your size, you know, metaphorically, whatever, your, your, your size, and your personality and predilections, there's, there's a place for you to fit in to be able to benefit somewhere from these teachings.
Whit Hornsberger 1:17:35
Yeah, absolutely. I agree. You know, and I think that comes back to what I was saying, in terms of, you know, my belief that, that we're not living to meditate, but meditating to live more efficiently. And you know, whether in Myanmar, it was the monastics who have had that, what is considered an auspicious opportunity, or, you know, those volunteering, working in the monastery, and then, you know, even outside of it, I just the fabric of the Dhamma, through through Burmese society really blew my mind, just, you know, the, the compassion and the, you know, literally the overwhelming like sadhus, you know, when I remember when I got out of the monastery, and I was in a taxi, or whatever it may be, and you know, the taxi driver would ask me, What am I doing Myanmar, you know, and I was playing, and he literally stopped the town. And he just turned around with his hands together, he just saw do so. And it was incredible, the way that the Dhamma is literally the bedrock, the foundation of the society, as opposed to you know, and it just is what it is, it's how conditions have evolved, you know, us now trying to kind of integrate it into our society, and it becomes more of a, you know, maybe rigid approach that meditation is something we do, and I'm doing my meditation now. And then I have this other part of my life, and they're, they're kind of different things. But as you said, you know, there are so many different ways that the Dhamma is, you know, expressed both prat through practice and towards others. And that's what I just found amazing that I didn't feel there was any wear in Burmese society that things shifted, you know, it was just this like, solid fabric. That was I just felt, I felt so incredibly safe there. You know, it was amazing.
Host 1:19:32
Yeah, and I think that that's just another example that comes to mind is I'm more of an introverted person. And so when I would see Western practitioners complain about a silent retreat and how they weren't able to talk to people. I took that as a character weakness, you know, I just took that is like, well, that's a defilement that you're, you're constantly needing to chatter away and this is this is a time to finally be within yourself. And as I partly because I was learning about learning styles through my profession, and partly I'm seeing Burma, I was just like, man, that's such a that that's really such a bullshit thing for me to say, in not being compassionate, understanding others that and seeing and and looking at the example in Burma where like you could, you could be so extroverted and so socially oriented. And this doesn't mean that you shouldn't take time with yourself. And that just because you have strength in one area doesn't mean you shouldn't try to develop other parts of it. But certainly, you can play into your strengths. And it would you know, to tell someone to tell an extroverted person, the only real way to derive benefit is to shut off and natural personality trait of who you are and what you do, like, okay, maybe some time that's, that's valuable to do. But as a general practice, that's not really good advice, and very helpful, very skillful in recognizing and then seeing in Burma, all these different ways that you know, all these different friends I had, and people I saw, that were so extroverted and so socially oriented. And so, you know, liking to be in a group and talking with people, but so oriented towards Buddhist practice and understanding and, and I guess I want to follow that story up with with just a question for you as well. You've touched on this before, but to ask it directly. Many practitioners say that when they go to Burma, they they learn as much from the community and the people and the culture, as they do from the actual practice and technique and teacher. And so I wanted to ask to what degree was that true for you? And what lessons did you take away from just the atmosphere there?
Whit Hornsberger 1:21:24
Yeah, I would agree wholeheartedly with that. You know, that's kind of what I was just alluding to a few minutes ago that, you know, it just felt to me that, you know, it was an unbroken continuity of, of Dhamma, throughout the culture. And it really kind of was, you know, the first example where I had been showing dharma as it is expressed in, in life outside of formal seated practice, or a formal walking practice. And I think that was, you know, very inspiring to me, to see the ability to integrate, and not only the ability than the necessity to integrate the Dhamma into society, because, after all, if it's just within the realm of formal practice, is that going to create the change that we all want to see. And so it was very inspiring to me to see the different forms that practice can take, within Burmese society, on a daily basis from from the formal ones to the what we might call informal. But, yeah, that it's just, it's just one in the same, you know, that, that our practice isn't separate for our life from our life, that it's one in the same, you know,
Host 1:22:45
I mentioned how I would just receive the steady stream of questions from meditators that when they would come to Burma or write me, and one of those questions was, to what degree are Burmese people or Burmese monks, you know, really meditating? And I would struggle with that question until I finally just said, Okay, we have to unpack the problems with the question rather than just give you an answer. Because I understand where you're coming from the meditation, as you have said, meditation is something you do and it's something that you do often on. It's a practice and but in Burma, it's like, as I started to integrate into life there and to see outside of formal practice, the chanting the offerings, the meta, the ALMS rounds, both sides of the arms rounds, both walking on it, as well as giving the so many different even the dawn of ceremonies and the the Mental Cultivation you have there, even you don't do it, a Donna, you don't give Donna but your friend gives Donna your friend invites you, you say saw do with with a pure heart of happiness for the sympathetic joy that your friend is doing a good deed, all of these different things I would have to unpack, you know, this is not and this would sometimes give ways to Western criticism of, you know, this kind of Orientalist outlook of like, well, we've taken the pure practice and you know, we've refined it, and those those people in those in Burma, they don't really practice as seriously as we have now cultivated it here, that, that, you know, you you look at a bit more deeply and say like, well, the way that you're judging and you're evaluating is really based on just a meditation centric, which is often very anti intellectual and, and, and, and uncomfortable with monastics for the religious clergy, they might represent or, you know, whatever else is going into it and you're missing. You know, you're taking meditation as a a specific function and part of the day that you do and you're not looking at the role that mental that meditation is playing into mental cultivation. That's, that's what it's really doing. And that was part of my transformation or my first few years in Burma. I was working at the time and I would take my vacations to go to monasteries to do self retreats, where I would, I would be in complete silence and not not have my eyes look up to see what was going on. And just as I'd been Train focus completely on the inner journey, which was wonderful, you know, I, they were very powerful experiences. But over time, I started to realize I'm missing out on all of these lessons that being a part of this monastery would involve me to do and I wasn't staying in like big Mahasi monasteries, I was staying in like caves or monasteries have, like, you know, half a dozen people that were that were serving more rural communities. And so I changed my outlook to want to go back to monasteries, where I was meditating for less hours, you know, just a few hours a day, and I was trying to involve myself in in Burmese, studying Burmese language and understanding monastic lay interactions and festivals and everything else. And not to say everything's rosy. I mean, certainly you you learn a lot of the underside of of Burmese, Burmese Buddhist monastic culture, there's a lot there to talk on. But I also learned, you know, I learned things that I never could if I had just taken meditation as a singular activity.
Whit Hornsberger 1:26:01
Hmm, yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, I think that's one thing I noticed too in the monastery, you know, that, you know, for, for those of us lay people that were there, you know, that that schedule we were attending to was, was rigorous and very disciplined. But, you know, at first I sometimes would see the monastics and I would think, well, they're not very disciplined, you know, and, and I soon realized that it was just like, Well, yeah, but they're not on that same schedule, every single day of their life in the monastery, you know, there are formal periods of intense meditation, the rains, retreats, etc. And then there, you know, there was this camaraderie, you know, this, like, this community feel, and friendships, I was just, like, incredibly inspiring, and it wasn't constant, you know, gazing at the floor, avoiding eye contact, etc, you know, and, yeah, that was just such a such a beautiful thing to see. Because you could start to see how the practice manifests in, in human life, you know, as opposed to just this idea that, you know, as we've said, that meditation is separate that, you know, as I say, to students, sometimes when I give a talk, I'm like, you know, a lot of people think of the Buddha's of spiritual teacher, or maybe a god or both, or whatever. But, you know, like, the Buddha was advising, you know, on politics 16, he was working on relationships, with married couples, he was talking about, you know, environmental stewardship, and that, ultimately, like the, you can't separate, you can't have the foundation of Dhamma, not integrated into all aspects of your life. And and if you can't, you know, pick and choose, you can't chop it up. And once you're on that path, then it begins to inform every aspect of your day from pouring your coffee, to you know, what, whatever it may be shopping for groceries, and then including your formal sets.
Host 1:27:57
Yeah, that's great. So then, looking at this experience that you had in Burma as a practitioner, you then moved on in your journey to becoming a teacher and staying on this Burma influence and Mahasi influence and Burmese culture and such. How did this experience in Burma, I know you went back for another extended retreat. So you had more touches with the culture before everything went to hell with the coop breaking out and when foreigners were still able to go there and practice? How did this experience these extended interactions play a role not just impacting you as a practitioner, which we've been talking about in some some detail, but starting to shape the way you look to formulate the teachings in another context as you moved into being a teacher?
Whit Hornsberger 1:28:42
Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, in terms of, you know, teaching, I was very fortunate, I mentioned this Buddhists Hermitage, close to Vancouver Island here on a little island called Denman Island. And I was going there for years doing retreats, and one of the lamas, the Tibetan Lama was there when he heard that, you know, we knew each other, he knew, I taught yoga, etc, when he heard I was going to Burma. He asked me when I come came back, would I be interested in teaching this Mahasi method, because his, his Rinpoche had spent time studying with Mahasi, many, many years prior, and so he had this very close connection to the Mahasi method. And so he he asked me, and he invited me to teach and I remember thinking, like, poof, you know, that's, like, I to me, at that time, I didn't think I would ever teach Buddhist meditation, you know, because, you know, it was kind of like, you're, you're introduced, you're invited to do it. And I was just, it was just my practice. And then so I went to Burma and and that first time and then came back and taught a retreat or two and then went back again. And yeah, you know, what, what I found was, and how I integrated it was, you know, the, the intent sort of style and approach of the Mahasi method, when looked at as, like a tool, as opposed to a way that we're living, you know, I sometimes have students ask me, they're like, so am I supposed to move this slowly when I, when I leave retreat, and I say, you know, well, you'll likely move a little bit slower than you did before. But if you move as slowly, as you did on retreat out in society, you know, you might have the police come out and question what you're doing. But I found, you know, integrating that very direct approach and, and combining it with my, my past, both through sport, and the integration of my my university degree and the study of, of primates and bring a lot of the science of the, the animal brain into it, it became much more digestible, for a lot of Western practitioners that came with me. And then, you know, it's not the 3am till 11pm schedule, it's still an intense Vipassana schedule, for sure, and the practitioners work very hard. But, you know, I do at the end of the day, we do a very gentle yoga practice, which, which just really helps. Even though as you know, in the Mahasi method, there's, there's walking meditation, it's still even if you're sitting on a chair, it's still very, very taxing on the physical body for a Westerner who's never done this work before. So, you know, I don't, I don't feel like I cut corners at all. You know, I've actually began on retreats. Now, I don't even put the schedule out in front of their seat when they show up, because you know, as soon as you know, someone who hasn't been on retreat, sees that schedule, they're there, the wanting mind to leave, comes up pretty quickly. And, you know, I, unlike the monastery, as I tell them, you know, it's like, This schedule is not mandatory, no, I'm not going to come to your room and ask you where you are. But there's also nothing on the schedule that that is extra. And as I say to them, I'm not here to waste your time, I'm not here to waste my time. And as I said before, a couple times, you know, I meditate to live more efficiently. And so using, you know, a very focused schedule. With some understanding, you know, that it's, it's, I say to people, like, if you're really serious about the path of Vipassana, or the teachings of the Buddha, you're not going to just do one retreat. So you know, also having that ability to listen to one's you know, inner compass, depending on what might be going on. And supporting each individual as needed for everyone that comes is at a different place, you know,
Host 1:32:35
right. And you also mentioned how another thing that's gone into your methodology and approach as a teacher is your, your interest in science and your college degree in primatology, you said, quote, Buddhist meditation opposes the evolutionary survival template and quote, and so I'm wondering if you could also go into talking about how your interest in science and your college degree has also played a role in you understanding meditation, the Buddha's teachings as well as how you present them in as a teacher?
Whit Hornsberger 1:33:06
Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a huge part of the way in which I share the Dhamma. And, you know, to be honest, when I went to university, I, as I mentioned, I went on an athletic scholarship, had I not been on an athletic scholarship, I probably wouldn't have gone to university at age 17, right out of high school. So when I got there, you know, I didn't know what I wanted to study. And for the first two years, I bounced around from from faculty to faculty, not really finding anything that was really that interesting to me. And then finally, you know, probably halfway through my second year, or maybe near the end started my third eye, you know, my coach said to me, like, you have to declare a major. And I took an anthropology to a one as it was at University of Calgary, the intro to anthro and human evolution in class and, and it really sparked my interest. And at the University of Calgary, they have a primatology department and which is a rather, you know, unique department. And obviously, not all universities have it. And so it got into that. And to be honest, at the time, it was really, it was interesting to me. And, you know, I spent some time in the jungles of Belize, conducting field research on wild monkeys and, and studying, you know, human evolution and our primate ancestors to better understand why we behave the way we do. And it was fascinating, but to be quite honest, it was a degree that allowed me to continue to play basketball, and I never figured it would come into my life or, you know, I wasn't, you know, as my professor said, she's like, you don't make any money doing field research. So unless you're going to become a professor, there's not that many avenues for it. And lo and behold, you know, as I got into meditation, you know, as I say to practitioners, you know, the Buddha wasn't specifically Of course, he didn't have that terminology. But you know, from what I can understand he wasn't specifically talking about you know, the Paleo mammalian brain and the reptilian brain stem in the animal brain, the way we now can with with neuroscience and science itself and this type of jargon and terminology, but everything that he was pointing to, in terms of where suffering arises from, and why it's arising is pointing to this animal part of our brain. And, you know, I remember when I was younger, and I was, I was trying to heal my body, and I was doing it from a very aversive person, you know, perspective, a lot of anger and, and self guilt, anger towards myself, anger towards coaches, etc. And I thought I was doing everything I could to heal. But because it was coming from this place of, of dosa of aversion, I wasn't healing, I was actually preventing healing from taking place. And at the time, I was studying yoga therapy, as I mentioned, and I came across a quote by an American psychiatrist, Carl Rogers, and the quote was, the curious paradox is only when I accept myself exactly as I am, can I then change, and I was in a yoga posture at the time, and I fell out of the yoga posture crying on the floor, because I realized, I didn't truly accept it, I intellectually, I said, I accepted this, but there was no loving kindness, there was no meta, there was a version towards it. And so I bring that into play when, you know, when I teach, and I, you know, bring up the science of, you know, our shared DNA with, you know, chimpanzees, our closest cousin, you know, now 98, you know, point 2%, depending on the study. And, you know, for, for much of our history, humans have separated ourselves from the natural environment and, you know, looked at ourselves as not being part of the animal kingdom, much to our, you know, dismay and our suffering and our self destruction of both ourselves in the environment. And so when I bring in this stuff, and we talk about the science behind it, and then talk about the Dhamma, and the mind, and, you know, we're literally like the Veda, you know, the feeling tons of experience, you know, coming from the limbic system, from the amygdala, and how we can, you know, as practitioners now, not just through my degree, but through all the science out there, how we can now corroborate what the Buddha was teaching, through science, it's an incredibly, not only inspiring time for, for these practices, but I would say, you know, a highly probable time for awakening, you know, in a way, with the science we have combined with the spiritual teachings, the only thing that's stopping us from Awakening is not wanting to do it, because it's work, you know, but we have so many resources, both intellectual, and experiential, through practice, at our fingertips, that it's an incredibly potent time for awakening. And so I integrate a lot of that, and, and combine it with the, with the Dhamma. And it's, you know, it's, it's just something that's really flowed naturally, from my mind, just based on, you know, how it's been educated both in university through my degree, and then through the intellectual study of the Dharma, and the experiential study of the Dharma through practice.
Host 1:38:08
That's great. That's beautiful. Thank you for that. Another big part of your journey, as well as your teaching, is yoga and your courses, integrate yoga with meditation practice, you've referenced how this allows the possibility of, quote, integrating the rationale within flow of postures and, quote, we, this has been part of your journey from the start. I mean, we heard about it initially, as you first practice yoga, when you were a basketball player. And then as you were healing, and then you had a whole other part of your journey that we we didn't really get into yet, because we were focusing on the meditation part that coincided with Burma. But this, this background into yoga, teacher training, and learning different forms of yoga, and then being a yoga teacher, and then been formulating yoga teaching with your Mahasi meditation style as well. Or maybe the more pan Buddhist practice that you're bringing, however, you would describe it, but there's an integration.
Whit Hornsberger 1:39:09
Yeah, I mean, for me, you know, when I, when, as I mentioned, when I came to yoga, it was as a form of therapy, and, you know, I couldn't even put my socks on, and I was in a lot of physical pain. And so for me, fortunately, I was starting at the same time to study Buddhist theory and, and mindfulness and taking nothing away from the yoga tradition. You know, in practices. You know, more active dynamic, like vinyasa, posture practices. I couldn't just use conscious breathing, to move through the challenges. And and then, you know, I started to get into what's called a yin yoga, a very passive practice where you're in postures for, you know, four or five minutes without moving and very, very helpful for the connective tissue, but it was excruciating for me. And, you know, it was virtually impossible for my mind to stay in these experiences because they were so uncomfortable. And so I started using Buddhist mindfulness in my yoga practice, to support the development of my body. And then that kind of just naturally flowed. And, you know, I've spent a lot of time studying classical yogic philosophy, both here in India and, and I have a lot of respect for the tradition. But what really took me down the path of the teachings of the Buddha was because I could experience the teachings for myself, I felt with the yoga tradition, there was some things I could experience and then there was a lot of things that I had to kind of take on, on blind faith. And I've always been a born skeptic, you know, I wouldn't even necessarily call myself a Buddhist, I am an individual, a mind that is finds great joy and curiosity in, in challenging perspectives and seeing for myself, you know, what other human beings have perceived over the course of our history. And so, for me, the Buddhist practices really became a refuge because I could really see the what was going on in my own mind based upon what the Buddha was talking about. And so then I just started, my whole practice became my yoga practice that is became integrated with Buddhist mindfulness, Vipassana, if you will, and then as a result of that, you know, because and hopefully this is for all teachers, you know, we should be teaching from experience not from, you know, the intellect or book knowledge. It was just natural that then I would teach yoga with these principles. And so I think it's really helpful. You know, students have said on retreat, what they find really beneficial is, it gives us you know, in our vipassana retreat, when we come to yoga, it's not like all of a sudden, the Dhamma stops, and Vipassana ends, and then we do yoga, and then we go back into Vipassana. And so it's another example, just like eating meditation, whatever it may be putting your your sandals or your shoes in order that we transition into the yoga practice. And I integrate the exact same teachings that I've been talking about all retreat and people can see how, wow, you know, this vinyasa yoga class that I've only ever heard classical yogic philosophy integrated with it can also be integrated with Vipassana, that as I mentioned before, there is no way that we can really put a halt to the Dhamma because it's it's everywhere you see it everywhere. And so it's been a way in which practitioners on on the retreats I offer, can also develop a lot of insight into into the teachings of the Buddha through the contemplation especially of physical sensation, and the concomitant feeling tones that arise from it in a yoga practice.
Host 1:43:01
Thank you for that. I think another hallmark of your teaching, as far as I've been able to glean from what you've shared online is, is, is this understanding that we're not meditating for ourselves alone, as well as the deeper implications and understanding of what meditation practice is you have a short video on your Instagram, which really moved me the title of which the our practice is not here to entertain, and you go on to reference how different spiritual traditions from Asia have been exported to the west, but infer that the underlying purpose of the practice may have been modified by some teachers and more of a source of pleasure, mundane balance than a very deep exploration of the Mind Body phenomenon, which, as we know, can be accompanied by very hard truths, a lot of lot of pain, but suffering through understanding suffering with the intention of coming out of it, it brings one deeper into an acceptance of the existence of suffering, which is the the essence really the Buddha's teachings and I think of any kind of path of truth anywhere. This short video, it seemed to me to be both somewhat of a subtle criticism of some aspects of this growing mass mindful meditation movement we've seen in the West, along with this gentle encouragement to bring it back into proper focus with correct values, along with an exposition of your own belief and teachings in it. Can you unpack more than meaning you were intending in the message you were trying to impart here? Mm hmm.
Whit Hornsberger 1:44:35
Yeah, certainly. And, yeah, I think it was, it was a criticism of the way you know, things have evolved in the West. And, you know, I recently said to someone, you know, for me, as I just mentioned, the teachings of the Buddha have been the path that really resonate with me but you know, the yoga tradition, you know, also has, has so much to offer People, but I feel like we've, I shouldn't say we've missed the boat because the boat is always there, we can always go back and get on it. But thus far in the West, you know, the way that yoga has evolved, for example, it really has become a form of entertainment, and about creating, you know, quote, unquote, delicious, juicy, really comfortable, pleasurable experiences on the yoga mat. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with experiencing, you know, pleasing sensations and feeling good on the yoga mat. But as I think it was, agencia said, you know, as teachers, if we only give our students whether it's yoga, or meditation, or otherwise, what they want, then we're actually doing them a disservice. And, you know, to have practices of yoga, which are really have evolved to be about comfort and feeling good at all times, you know, to use, you know, a Buddhist, you know, reference point, it's like, we're just increasing the attachment to pleasant feeling tones. And as a result of that, increasing the attachment and in turn aversion to the unpleasant feeling tones. And sadly, if, if we don't, if we don't focus on working with all types of postures, including the ones that are uncomfortable, we can avoid them in the interim, and maybe we feel like we're, we're happy, and we're really, you know, comfortable and healthy in the body. But then at a certain point, no matter how much yoga we do, if we're lucky enough to live to a ripe old age, there will be unpleasant feeling tones in this body. And if we haven't developed a way to relate to them with equanimity, then there's going to be suffering, there's going to be Dukkha. And so, you know, often the uncomfortable postures are avoided. And then as a result, over time, the range of motion is lost, and then the body becomes increasingly more uncomfortable, you know, and I think, tick, not Han once said, you know, the cure for the pain is in the pain. And this isn't, you know, to take aggressive approach. But, you know, wherever there's fire, wherever there's heat, whether it's in the physical body or the mind, that's where we have to put put out the suffering or put out the discomfort, we have to go towards it, as opposed to away. And so, you know, I and truly what I find is that what people really want from their practice, you know, because that's what really allows them to live a more comfortable lifestyle, both physically and mentally by moving towards the discomfort, you know, in a very intelligent and wise way, we're not, we're not here to injure the body. But if we constantly run away from all the postures, and all the practices that are unpleasant, and go towards the pleasant, eventually, you know, there will be V Purnama dukkha, there will be the decay of the pleasant no matter what, eventually, that posture won't be comfortable at age 9095. And then if my happiness is dependent upon what I can do on a yoga mat, because I do all the postures that feel good, and what happens to my happiness when I'm aged, or there's an injury, and I can't do my favorite posture postures on the yoga mat. So I think that, you know, yoga, like any of these traditions has so much to offer. But we have to understand that, you know, they're not designed to make us feel good. They're also not designed to make us feel bad. That's the duality that the mind gets stuck in. And, you know, when people come on vipassana retreat, you know, the, you know, it's very interesting. And I share this with groups, it's like, people show up, and they're very happy to be there. Or so they think, you know, expectations are high, they haven't seen the schedule, yet. They haven't gotten into the work, then by day two, or day three, when when they're starting to experience like what this is, they think something is wrong, you know that the practice isn't working. But as the Buddha taught, that's when the practice is actually working. But we're so conditioned to think that meditation and yoga is about rainbows and butterflies, when eventually it will be. But to get to that point, we have to go through some some hardship and some some work to get there. And so you know, and then by the end of the retreat, the smiles are back. And this time those smiles aren't based upon conditions. They're based upon insight and wisdom. And that's the classic Vipassana glow that you know, that we speak about. So, in a way, I feel like that's one reason that the teachings that I share via the wisdom of the Buddha, you know, also from my background in sport, you don't become successful in sport by by not working hard. And, you know, an example I often use is like on the side of the basketball court, there used to be in a plastic garbage pail like a big plastic garbage pail. And I asked students I was like, Do you know what that was there for? And they don't know. And then I tell them of course, that was for vomiting into from pushing yourself so hard. Now, that's an extreme form. But you know, you don't get anywhere in life, whether it's a university degree or athletics or dancing or music or whatever it is, without going against the grain of the preferences of the mind and when we do that, that's where liberating starts to seep into the, to the heart, mind. And it's incredible to watch, you know, it's tough the first couple days of retreat, I gotta tell you, Joah, you know, I have to pull out all the things from my athletic career to motivate and to inspire people to keep doing the work. But I give all my practitioners credit, you know, they, they stick with it, and they begin to see and see clearly, and it's amazing process to watch unfold.
Host 1:50:24
That's great. And to put another characteristic on your teaching from what I've been able to glean as well as personal interactions with you. Over the course of the past number of years, what I find especially really powerful about your teaching is the way that you've articulated this intersection between the inner spiritual journey, and the necessity of social engagement and connection with others, which referenced on the introduction to this talk. In other words, it's not a practice that's just meant to be practiced in isolation and exclusion from the reality confronting us, even though it is an inner journey. And I want to quote something you've written on this topic, you you wrote, quote, it may be difficult at times to see how the minute changes in our own being will affect the future outcome. But when we become privy to the mechanisms of causality, there is no doubt in my mind, that each and every moment that I am practicing both on and off the mat, I am contributing to a social movement that one day will reap benefit to humankind and all living species, there's perhaps no there is perhaps no greater time in history for the cultivation of an altruistic way of living, I am blessed to be given the chance to make a difference beginning with my own heart and quote, so this is a profound statement encouraging a trust in the process, along with a longer perspective of growth and one's place in, in a society of many different forces and actors. And I'm wondering if you could say more about this approach that you have, and how you try to combine this outlook? And understanding along with the internal understanding and acceptance of suffering?
Whit Hornsberger 1:52:00
Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, thank you, Joe. Yeah, you know, is, from what I've found, experientially on my path. And as I say, to students, you know, I think the biggest hindrance to receiving the gifts that the Dhamma has to offer, through meditation practice is when our practice is all about us. I'm, this is my practice, I'm doing this for me, because at the end of the day, the self, the construct of self doesn't want to do what it doesn't want to do. It wants to do what's comfortable. And so it's very difficult, I think, to get somewhere on this path, when everything is about this is my spiritual practice, my meditation practice, I'm doing this for me. And as I say, to practitioners, you know, when you start to dedicate the fruits of your actions, to to others, and to society into the future of our species, and you know, all living things with whom we share this planet, you will begin to see your practice and the results thereof, expedite exponentially, when we begin to break down, kind of the sense of separation, that I'm doing it just for me. And, you know, for me personally, this is what I, I get the most joy out of, and when I look at the Dhamma, for me, what I saw on it, and what inspired me so much to pursue, it was not just that it was helping me heal. But I remember, you know, when, before I picked up, you know, that first book by the Dalai Lama, I always felt very kind of lost in society that, you know, I, I didn't feel like I belonged here almost felt like Alien, you know, and then, and then when I started reading teachings of the Buddha, I just My jaw dropped. Wow, there is this perspective out there, then I kind of felt my whole life. And I really, you know, as I say, to people, I don't think this is the only path that can do this. It's just the path that I know the most, because I've spent the most time doing it. But to me, what motivates my practice every day is not to benefit me, but to benefit others and to do something that is bigger than just the individual, individual self. And typically, the the conditioned mind just takes a very myopic perspective that I'm doing meditation for myself, or if I'm doing it for other people, well, I'm not going to see these changes. Well, that may certainly be true. You know, as I say to students of mine, and I acknowledged myself, I may not see drastic, palpable changes in the world in my lifespan, even if I'm given another 67 years. But I'm practicing today to plant the seeds within me that then spread through a butterfly, like effect to others for future generations. It's not just about this generation, you know, it's like the the first nation and the Aboriginal peoples of North America that's the perspective they took their environmental stewardship was not just for their life. Time, but for future generations, both human and otherwise, animals, insects, plants, trees, etc. So, for me that that's what motivates me the most and you know, a quote I sometimes share with practitioners is, you know, because there's this kind of common thing, well, what am I going to do? I'm not going to be able to make a difference. Well, if we begin to see that the manifestation of our society, the injustices, the environmental degradation, etc, is a manifestation of, you know, what are we now 8 billion, you know, human minds living from this, you know, myopic perspective of being, you know, a separate self, that gives rise to the defilements of Loba, dosa, Mohawk greed, aversion delusion, when we begin to see that it's arising as a result of cause and effect, that it didn't just happen, as a result of just a few bad apples that this is part of our history, then we begin to intuit through the law of causality. Through our practice that, okay, I might not be able to see palpable changes, but I know that if I plant the seeds here, and you plant the seeds there, and they plant the seeds there, that there is a chance in the future. And as a result of that, that radically motivates one's practice, because we're doing it for others, because we don't feel so alone. And as a result of that, you know, the quote that I was just about to share, you know, Mother Teresa said something to the effects of, we can't all do great, big things, but we can all do small things with great love, great passion, you know, and intention. And if every one of us, not even every one of us, I don't think it will ever be every one of us. But you know, if even you know, a percentage of humanity could really begin to plant these seeds, and just reduce suffering on an individual level, of course, that is gradually overtime, going to reduce suffering on a global level, and begin to right the ship, if we have that chance, you know, but I'm gonna go out, you know, Dhamma fighting, you know, I'm gonna do everything I can in this life, to live in line with the laws of nature, in an altruistic way. And whether I see those changes or not, that doesn't matter, because not seeing those changes palpably still motivates me just as much as seeing the changes in the people around me in the dharmic communities, the Sangha, you know, so
Host 1:57:23
and that makes me think also of Burma, where are contrasting with the West, where meditation can sometimes be seen as a selfish activity or an activity against the flow of conventional society, even a reaction of it less so now with it was much more on the fringe before but certainly to some extent, whereas in Burma, your if you I mean, referencing back to the taxi driver, stopping and bowing to you and saying, Sadhguru, he's, he has a natural wellspring of sympathetic joy, that you are, are, are directing your human life towards this noble endeavor. And if someone wants to be a monk in Burma, especially as a foreigner, the joy with which you'll be received, I mean, I can't tell you how many monasteries I go to in Burma, where I'd ask if I can say, a couple of days or a week to practice. And when they found out what my volition was, and what my purpose they would say, with no sense of irony or joke, you can stay here for life, we'll build we'll build this building for you, we'll give you this Well, you'll have this bathroom, and this will be yours for life if you want it. Be there's so much joy in that. And if someone were to have a spiritual attainment, there's no sense I've ever seen, if any, any kind of jealousy or or your attainment versus mine. This would be this would rarely be understood. It's more of like an achievement on the part of humankind, for being able to do something that, that being able to have a purification, which is going to benefit and inspire all of us. And this comes back to something else you've stated you, you have a very powerful quote, I would say bold, even controversial to some, when we meditate for ourselves, it doesn't work. I wonder if you can articulate first the danger that you've seen in the west where some practitioners might feel their their practice is must be a self involved endeavor. I mean, really, that's what it sounds like that quote is a reaction to what how you're seeing some practice develop in the West, both in terms of practitioners as well as possibly organizations and teachers that are promoting that intentionally or unintentionally, and then how you've tried to respond to that danger by bringing a teaching, which still focuses on the inner growth and still focuses on the need to personally confront one's own suffering and take that agency and responsibility, but while not doing so, exclusively and blindly to that reality outside.
Whit Hornsberger 1:59:47
Mm hmm. Yeah, good question. And, you know, my take on that is is not necessarily that we're not practicing for self but you What I mean by that is, when the self is practicing, when wit is practicing, and I'm very identified with, with me and this persona of me, then with that what I've typically found, in my own experience, comes at too much effort, too much willpower being used to try to get it right to achieve, to try to force results. Because our sense of self has been so conditioned, especially in Western society, to go, you know, 100%, or, you know, in sports is that we used to be told, like, give it 150%, like, that's even possible. And so when, when the self is meditating, as opposed to, you know, like, not self, just the awareness in the heart, that's meditating, it gives rise to, you know, all the baggage and the accoutrements of the self come with it, the willpower that tries too hard, then when that doesn't work, because that doesn't work, then comes the unworthiness, you know, the self defeating beliefs, etc. And so, of course, to to move beyond that part of the brain that's meditating, we can't use willpower to not meditate from the self. And so, by developing these practices, such as meta print, Donna mudita, you know, karuna, the Brahma Vihara is, and really focusing on on serving others from our heart, then that construct, you know, that mythology of separation begins to break down. And that's where the meditation practice really begins to flourish. Because as long as it's me, that's meditating, I bring along with me, just a load of baggage, of insecurities, of self defeating beliefs of, of willpower, trying to get it right frustration, and the whole gamut of defilements and suffering. And when we can begin to really devote our time to, you know, some of these practices that are really focusing outwardly, as much as in really, which is really all of them, then what I found personally, in my own experience, and through practitioners experience, that that's when the practice really begins, really begins to take root and really begins to flourish. And in way, you know, I think it takes a lot of the, the burden off the shoulders of the self, that, you know, when we can begin to focus on on others first, then everything kind of been, you know, the, literally the parasympathetic nervous system has a chance to be induced and come online. And from that relaxation response, that's where mindfulness comes from. And, you know, as a result of that, this becomes, you know, you were saying to conservatives, we looked at as this is a selfish practice, but, you know, I would state the contrary, it is, it is the antithesis of selfish path. You know, and it's possible to do things, including meditation from a selfish perspective. You know, the ego instinct has many, many strategies as to how to make anything about itself, including spirituality. But just because the mind is being trained, doesn't make it a selfish endeavor. And, and what, you know, we begin to see in this process is, you know, as I've spoken about on retreat, I think when we think about selfishness in the world, because the the conditioned mind is dualistic, it always goes to the extremes. And we think of like, you know, the, the extreme examples of selfishness, that is destroying the world. And yeah, that's certainly not helping. But it's also the little things on a daily basis, you know, when when the mind, you know, is conditioned to really be focused upon it itself. It's not altruistic, and it doesn't have this expansive awareness, this breath of awareness that is mindfulness, then it begins to do things that it might not think think is selfish. But when you multiply that by a billion people across the world, this is what is breaking down our United Way of being a human family and examples I give is, you know, holding doors open for people, or, you know, I see now on like, you know, subways and trams, in Europe, and even buses here in Canada, where there's signs that say, you know, to give up these front seats to you know, elderly people, people with a walker, women who are pregnant, whatever it may be. And to me, I look at that, and I almost find that a little bit disheartening that we're at this point that we need signs to tell us that when someone comes up on that, you know, elderly or you know, maybe it's a young person on crutches, that if I'm sitting here, I'm going to stand up because I'm able bodied. And so it's these little kind of what might seem like trivial or not even selfish acts throughout the day, that really are coming from a very myopic perspective of my life and myself, that is beginning to create more and more divisiveness and separation between humans across To cross the planet, and in turn that gives rise to conflict and in turn suffering. So I would state, it's the opposite. And what we begin to see, especially once insight begins to dawn on the construct of self and it begins to fall away that we can absolutely dedicate our time to training the heart mind. And it's not a selfish act, it's coming from an altruistic perspective that through this work that I'm doing, I can now go out, and I can, that barrier of separation that gives rise to my fears, and in turn, my aversion to others begins to gradually and systematically break down. And that's how we begin to heal this society, you know, one loving relationship at a time.
Host 2:05:41
That's so profound. And it's so beautiful to hear your passion and eloquence in describing it. And that, you know, it having as myself as someone who was trained in, in a model of meditation in among western communities, but then went to live in Myanmar for 15 years and was around those communities and really being a bridge be functioning somewhere as a bridge between the two and some comfort level and familiarity with both. One of the things I've come to see and being in Burma and having more contact with Western meditators is just I don't know how to say this in a way that doesn't sound as biting as it is. But it's, it's also true that I kind of, can't believe the the selfishness of how many Western meditators I've come across since and this is, I don't want to say that in a blanket statement. And this is how they all are. And there's like so many beautiful examples, yourself included, of, of those that really don't fit that model. But it's also unfortunate how many have and how many in interactions I've had have come with a sense of my practice and my insights and my needs for a retreat and what I'm looking at for spiritual and personal growth and everything else. And so and it becomes the mind my mind me, me, me, my mind, mind. And even though those me's are focused on spiritual transcendence, and in some cases, even monastics, I mean, I remember I had a friend who was from Europe, and he became a monk in Burma and a monk for life. So he's very dedicated. And he just flatly said to me one time, like, Do you know what I gave up in Europe for this experience? Like, do you know how much I had to give, unlike some of the monks that are here in Burma, like, because of how much I gave up, like, there are certain expectations of the kind of monastery and spiritual life I want to have here that are just a standard that I have to you know, that, that, that I won't accept anything less than, and he wasn't, the funny thing was, he wasn't talking about, like, I want European foods, or I want, you know, access to this or that he was actually very austere and very and didn't have a lot of those materialistic needs. But he was talking about those kind of humble monastic settings, which would, which were not easy to find in Burma and exactly what he was looking for, but which he had a sense of entitlement that was coming from just a Me, me, me, my my mind, and also a reaction to, I think, among some self described, very serious meditators or Buddhists or monastics that, that this so called engaged Buddhism and social engagement, other things that this is really, this is actually a sign of immaturity in one's spiritual growth, and not understanding karma for what it is and not, and, and believing that we still have some kind of agency to shape the world. And this is, you know, that this needs to be turned away from and as with everything, there's there's grains of truth in all of this, that, you know, meditation does teach you deep meditation does teach you a bit more about control the environment, and what and the role of karma and everything else. But this is this, I would say, is an extrapolation of going too far. And because of that, you know, I think this is bringing us now to this convergence of Western meditation students and teachers whose spiritual growth and training has been derived from Buddhist teachers or methodologies or lineages, and then this terrible crisis in Burma erupting, and how do you respond if at all, to, to what's going on? And I think and, again, this is interesting for me, because I'm in a convergence of communities I'm in a convergence of, of activists and, and pro democracy actors and government officials and others that are resisting the coup in one form or another. And those in the monastic meditative environment that are that are coming more from the spiritual angle. And as anyone who listens to this platform know, we have a lot of conversations with a lot of those different kinds of people that usually platforms don't have Don't, don't open quite to the extent that that I think that that we do and both of those crowds and I've gotten feedback from from both sides. It's been interesting from listeners, and some of the feedback I've gotten from more of the pro democracy people is it's been very interesting and they've said you One of the things I like about hearing these conversations about spirituality and meditators is that one person wrote to me, I really saw meditators as this very selfish crowd. And this crowd that was really just concerned with their own meditation progress at the expense of everything happening around them. And the lack of response from Dharma communities in the West to what was happening in Myanmar really confirmed those biases and those opinions and, and the kinds of guests that we have on like yourself are often bridging those worlds to some extent, and speaking about the power of meditation and social context and such. And so this was opening him up to these wider truths of how bright and breaking these stereotypes he had of meditators, especially Western meditators, especially in Myanmar, being essentially kind of selfish beings. I mean, that's unfortunately, a, a reputation that many have, and it's not totally unfounded, unfortunately, as well. Even though of course, it is generalized, there are people who break that that stereotype. But you know, but But this brings us to this present day where there there are so many meditation teachers, practitioners, organizations, that have built up their spiritual resume sometimes in a pretty public way of which great masters in Burma they trained under and learn from and everything else, and using this as kind of their spiritual homeland. And sometimes speaking about the gratitude, we need to have sometimes a bit of Orientalism mixed in there and saying, like, well, they, they're the source, but we really made it better. And we, you know, we took it and kind of made it our own. And this this, which is, which is an attitude you find going back hundreds of years in different forums, but but the extent to which the meditator community, the Buddhist, whatever you want to call it, mindful community has, has played any kind of role to step up. And what's happening in Myanmar has been minimal. And and again, I say that without any want to make any generalizations. I've said before, and I'll say it here that what we're able to do as a platform both is a nonprofit mission that engages in humanitarian missions in Burma, as well as the interviews we have so much of it is supported and supported financially by meditators, individual meditators who have have seen what we're doing and have given and so I really want to speak to the gratitude of those that have contributed it, whether a few dollars, or whether a few hours as a volunteer, whatever else. But we would also be remiss to pretend that the wider community has done next to nothing, and has been almost completely silent. And I don't I don't know why that is. And this is an interesting convergence, because you're talking about meditation as being something that is, is greater than ourselves. And, and the sense of connectedness and you personally as well, I have to, to publicly pat your back and compliment you that you have, you have consistently donated a percentage of your teachings, partly to the Mahasi center and partly to better Burma, and have continued in your teachings and on your social media and to your students, to remind them about what's happening in Myanmar and our connectedness to that as practitioners, which you and you have stepped up in a way above and beyond to the extent and consistency that you have done that that has really stood out in in a remarkable way and a very moving way. And so I'm bringing all this together with the question of, of both looking at why you have decided to do what you've done with the level of support, you've had both material as well as as, as as how you've how you've shared and spoken. And then contrasting that with what what it means what your feeling is, with what you've seen it the wider response of the mindfulness community, I've shared my opinions, I don't want to assume those unused on you, you might have other ways of looking at it. But just as you've looked at the mindfulness, meditation, Buddhist, whatever you want to call it, Western pockets of communities and the way that they've responded or not responded, what have you seen in that? And what do you think the reasons for that are?
Whit Hornsberger 2:14:17
Well, firstly, thank you for the kind comments. And, you know, I have to turn that appreciation and gratitude, in large part to the community of practitioners that I've worked with over the past, you know, seven years, ever since that Tibetan lama invited me to teach, you know, at that time, he asked me, you know, do you want to teach by Donna, or do you want to charge for it? And it was an easy decision for me because I had always received the teachings by Donna. And, and then from that time, 2015 on, you know, I won't say it wasn't scary at times to try to build a teaching career on that model, but the response of people or both to support me as a teacher and in turn to support the monastics in Myanmar and, and as well your non for profit better Burma. And, and the the lay people of Burma has been incredible. And, you know, for me personally, you know, I never expected to be teaching, it was not something that I was planning to do, as I think I mentioned, you know, I was petrified of public speaking, I feel incredibly humbled to be spending my life at least now, you know, for the time being, sharing the Dharma, to have been invited to teach in this tradition, to have been invited to go to Myanmar to have been received the way I was there, you know, I'm still very close with the president of the Mahasi monastery over there, and his nephew, who's educated in the US, very close with him. So, you know, this is really not about me, this is about us, we rise and fall together. And for me, you know, inviting practitioners, if they feel the call to offer Donna to Myanmar as well is, it's not even a question. I don't think, in my heart, you know, and I'm not trying to, you know, promote myself as being anything special. But I think, you know, anyone who, who walks the path long enough, you know, that innate altruism of our heart begins to, you know, bubble up, and once it does, you can't push it away. And, you know, I think one of the misconceptions maybe about mindfulness is that, you know, it's this form of like, concentration, you know, maybe likened to absorption concentration, where it's a narrowing of the breadth of attention. But truly mindfulness is this expansive awareness and expanding of the breadth of attention. And, you know, I love the way that it's sometimes put with the metta practice that, you know, no thing nothing and nobody left out of our hearts. And so it's just a, it's just a natural process and unfolding of the law of causality, when the defilements are eradicated through insight and practice that, you know, how, how could we not give to others, especially to those in a country where this method these teachings came from, you know, and I think, for me to spending a lot of time in the yoga industry, and seeing how yoga has come from ancient India. And, you know, it's really lost and not completely, this is a generalization, but lost much of its connection to India, and to the source of where this wisdom is coming from. And so the same goes for me with the teachings of the Buddha that, you know, we must honor, you know, these places from, from which the wisdom arose. And, and, you know, what I found is that practitioners, they really want that opportunity, as well. And, you know, with regard to the discussion, the topic of, you know, the, the self and the selfishness that can arise, you know, in mindfulness communities, I think, you know, as I mentioned before, the ego instinct, the self can take anything and make it about itself. And I truly believe that, you know, underneath that construct, you know, we are all extremely altruistic beings, we are highly generous and loving. And, sadly, at this point in time, you know, especially in western contemporary culture, we don't have so many avenues through which those innate qualities of the heart are able to be expressed. And so it can be, you know, it can be maybe kind of difficult, you know, when people go on a retreat, they feel that way, but then, you know, they leave retreat, and they go back out into this system, that is, like, you know, like a vortex of individuality and selfishness and looking out for number one, and, you know, through no fault of their own, it's this is unconscious behavior. But when that mind goes back into its conditioned, myopic perspective, it doesn't think about Burma, you know, it doesn't think about what's going on in other places of the world, and not just you know, other places, even on the streets of our own cities, you know, the homeless, you know, what one teaching I often give my students is, you know, obviously, with with discernment, if an individual, you know, may be under the influence of something, you have to be mindful, but when you can tell that a person living on the street is in a sober state, you know, we've all done it before, you know, walked by and tried not to look at them, even though our heart knows that they're there to stop and talk to those people. And so, the the collection of data for Myanmar is just I think something that it's hugely important for my own spiritual practice. And from what I've heard from practitioners, it's very important to them that we're helping out a place that has given us so much through through these practices and through these teachings.
Host 2:20:14
Well, I thank you for that. I mean, I think you just individual, the individual also, just to someone who deeply cares about Burma has invested in the work that we're doing that this has this generosity, and this compassionate spirit has has been something that has, has framed your outlook and your teaching and what you're trying to pass on. And it's just, it's, it's, it's such an inspiration, hearing your passion and eloquence and how you're bringing this to students and your understanding of what mindfulness can do when it really does take on these wider forms and breaking down the ego and breaking down what this AI structure is, and where it can, the purification of certain defilements where that, that purity of mind and goodwill can extend beyond the practitioner and to that wider community. So that's, that's just, I just, I can't express my appreciation enough for that.
Whit Hornsberger 2:21:19
Well, Joe, thank you, man, I mean, for providing the medium through which we can help as well, you know, we're said, We rise and fall together, we're all in this together, and, you know, to, to have a community that has responded like this. And to have a medium, like the one that you've provided, through which we can help in different ways, not just sending, you know, sponsored meals to the monastery to the Mahasi. monastery, it's, it's incredible, you know, and it's just, it's so important to me, you know, in, I haven't spent a huge amount of time in Myanmar, I hope one day, we can all go back. But you know, it's given me so much. And I've got very deep relationships with the people that I met there still. And, you know, one of my friends, the nephew of the President, couple years ago, at the start of the coup, he was posting some things on his social media just about, you know, organizing peaceful rallies. And we used to talk quite regularly. And then after a while, you know, it kind of went silent, and I didn't really want to think what I thought might have happened, was happening. And then yeah, it was in February of this year, I was back here on Vancouver Island leading retreats, and I got a response from him a message after maybe a year and a half of not hearing anything from him. And I kid you not the first thing he says to me says wit, I'm so sorry, I didn't respond earlier. And then, of course, where he was, was in the past year and a half was, was imprisoned. You know, and he escaped with his life. But that's the type of heart that is the fabric of Myanmar. And, you know, it's just, it's just, it's just such a special place, a place that, you know, for most Westerners, even aside from the coup, was they couldn't pinpoint it on a map or they haven't heard about it, you know, maybe the the change from Burma to Myanmar name doesn't, doesn't help understanding but, you know, bringing awareness to all that stuff, and you know, how good it feels to give to others. And if we can make our life about that, and especially our practice, our practice, will, will flow with ease. And we will truly experience you know, that unconditional happiness when we put others ahead of ourselves. But that's, you know, that's going up, not only going upstream, that's going you know, upstream of a raging river with the snowpack melting, because our system is not built that way. And as such, you know, that's, that just inspires me to, to continue to do it, you know, there's still so much work to be done. And we can't let our foot off the gas, we got to keep going. And as I said, whether we see political change in our lifetime are not, you know, none of us are guaranteed tomorrow. So we don't know when will be our last day. But you know, let's live today and do everything we can to create a harmonious altruistic environment for all living things, because that's where happiness comes from, you know, we can see that our society is not happy. And of course, it's not it doesn't happiness doesn't arise when it's based upon the self, you know, so I yeah, thank you for for creating the medium. And again, I just have to give a shout out and huge thanks. And about gratitude to all the practitioners both from from retreats and my online, online programs by donation that that have supported. It's It's really incredible, what they've been able to provide to Myanmar and also to support my way of life and teaching from this, this model that is so dear to me.
Host 2:24:44
Thank you for that. I want to second, the shout out that you give and express my own deep appreciation to any of your students who are listening that have answered your call to give support that has found its way to Burma, even though we don't know each other and there's some They don't know exactly where their fund is going, the trust they have in you in the practice and then the vehicle for for that represents our nonprofit. I just want to thank all of those so much heartfelt. And I also want to i, we did one very interesting show that I just want to point out for those potential donors or past donors. It's episode number 172 hope from the heartland. And what was so unique about this episode was that one American listener, decided that he was so moved by a Burmese speaker named theory that he started giving donations to our nonprofit earmark towards supporting her because he just had so much trust and faith and integrity and in the way she had represented herself. And this one on this, this has gone on for years where she has received steady donations from him. And she eventually came to me and said, You know, I, they've never met each other never talked, I would like to come on the podcast and have a conversation, a public conversation with him, where we just talk about this act of giving. And it's just this beautiful conversation where she's saying, you know, we the material donation, of course, it helps. But what's really amazing is we don't feel alone, like we know that someone is there supporting us, and his name is Jake, and she'll just, she described how she would just tell her friends who would feel so disheartened and hopeless at times, my friend Jake still cares about us. My friend Jake gave this you know, and my friend Jake is supporting with this. And everyone around started building this kind of saintly image of this, this American named Jake, who was just for no reason at all, had just decided to emerge. And to make a difference. And Jake went on very powerfully to tell his story of being a heroin addict that had hit rock bottom and coming in his own part of his own recovery was and being sober, I think it's seven years now is, is being is showing up for other people. And, and so and the reason why I point to this episode as being something so profound is that's often what gives money and you don't really know the financial transfers and mechanisms of where that goes. And what that really does. And this conversation is so beautiful, because it really puts a human heart on that act of giving above and beyond the material side of it. And really from from donor to recipient, you're hearing their own words and describing what this connection means. And it's at the end of the day, it's a human connection. And it's a human connection. When this country and people are, are at their lowest of lows, this is for a country has had a tumultuous history, and really terrible things happen. And for generations, this is the worst it's ever been in anyone's collective memory. And the world is all but turned away and meditate and meditators and practitioners, for the most part, have also turned away somewhat as well. And so those moments where those people have stepped up even in a small way to just material or non material to know that someone somewhere cares. And we're not alone. That that is the thing that can give the fuel to go on another day and keep trying to resist a tyrannical military, make the sacrifices work for democracy and human rights and freedoms and try to transform their country into back to being the reciprocal of the Dhamma that can continue to export and welcome practitioners for monasticism or pilgrimages or extended retreats or socially engaged Buddhist monasteries with social missions, whatever it is, but but these, these stories are just so powerful to know that what what showing up can mean what the smallest of things can mean, for those that are on the ground and what it does to them through their own words through theory talking. So it's really beautiful. And I and you know, with that, I just want to underscore again, all of those who have supported our nonprofit and by any means at any time, but especially your students who have continued over months and years to be able to, to answer your call and you for framing that messaging that, you know, like like Jake, they might be an anonymous donor. But as you hear the words of theory, it's anything but anonymous, the people that are getting that support are getting something they never would have expected when they're at their worst moment. And that's just to speak on all of their behalf. Just kind of a thank you and gratitude that, you know, no words can really express at the end.
Whit Hornsberger 2:29:30
Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And you know, as I say to students, when I give the the talk on Donna, before they've practiced on, I just tell them you know, you have no idea how far your generosity goes, you know, and, and like the appreciation that you've shared with me the emails I get from the monastery, how grateful they are for the support, you know, it is it's it's helping people as you said, not just you know, the financial help, but you know, that they know that we're here and my friend that the President's nephew, in that message after he apologized for not getting back to me, Swedish guy, at the end of that conversation after a year and a half hiatus, he said, Please wit, don't let them forget about us. Yeah. And so you know, that's, that's the most important thing. And when we, when we put that as our Mo for our practice, our practice will flourish and, and it will make change in the world, we all of us have such an incredible potential, you know, to be compassionate, loving, altruistic, we all have it, I truly don't believe that there's any human being that doesn't have it. And it's just amazing that we have these gifts of Dhamma, to be able to help us reveal that. And it takes work and it takes patient endurance as the Buddha taught, but it's there. And once we reveal that potential that we all have, we have an incredible opportunity to create the change that we seek. And if it's not palpable in our lifetime, we know that we've planted the seeds and we've done what we can. So I just encourage everyone you know, to keep putting, you know, one step in front of the other patient endurance, keep walking the walk, because there's a lot of talking to talk in this day and age when it comes to spiritual practices. But thank you to everyone who shows up and does the work, including yourself, Joe, so thanks so much man for having me I really appreciate it man.
2:31:34
Gotta fast. Got a plan to get us out of Yemen working at a convenience store manager said just a little bit of money won't have to drive too far just cross the border and into the city. You and I can both get jobs finally see what it means to be living.
Host 2:32:01
Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. As regular listeners are aware, we often remind our audience about our nonprofit mission that are Burma at the end of the show. Truth be told fundraising is hard work. And I can personally attest the fact that it's really no fun to keep asking for contributions. Yet the situation on the ground now in Myanmar is so distressing that we continue to do so on behalf of the Burmese people. What is most helpful at this time are recurring donations, which help alleviate both the stress and time involved in fundraising. If you were able to pledge a certain amount per month, our team can plan around having at least a consistent minimum amount to work within each month. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities. Post donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. At the bottom we invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. And the donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause and both websites accept credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar. Available at alokacrafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's aloka crafts spelled A L O K A C R A F T S one word alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.