Transcript: Episode #215: Navigating the Legal Pathways Down Under

Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.

---

Host 0:10

Just a quick note before today's show, while we have transformed our entire platform to respond to the ongoing crisis, increasing our production of both podcast episodes and blogs, we cannot continue without your support. Please consider making a donation or contributing as a volunteer to support our active engagement at this critical time.

Brad 1:36

And welcome back. My guest today is an immigration lawyer based in Sydney, Australia. And we're going to be talking about an element of the crisis that has is so common with many of our episodes has gone underreported and unnoticed. But there are in fact very large numbers of Myanmar people who are not only internally displaced persons are not only refugees, but maybe Myanmar people who exist overseas on a visa, whether it's a tourist visa or a student visa, and they have difficulty finding legal protections and legal standing. So thank you very much for joining us, Coco, could you introduce yourself for our guests?

Ko Ko Aung 2:17

Thank you. Yes, my name is Quan, and I'm a practicing solicitor in New South Wales. I've been specializing in immigration and refugee law ever since I stopped practicing. I'm actually born and raised in Yangon. And my parents are from the UK, the southern part of Myanmar. I moved here when I was 616 16 and a half. And yeah, a bit of introduction, a bit of background about my family, my family is you can say like middle class family like like just running a family business. Because we are from southern part of Myanmar. So we sell fish products, like nappy, NDI. fishbase, and fish sauce trading across Myanmar. And I have two older brothers. But they are not really interested in study. So they went straight to my family business. Actually, I have to say thank you to them. Because if they don't, if they don't join the family business, I will have to be the one who have to join the family business. Even though I'm okay with that, I wouldn't be where I am. Without their support. Yeah, politics is Burmese politics is not something that we usually talk about in the family. Because we our family had a fair share of bad experience. During 19 ida were my brothers have to skip had to skip schools for two years because of the revolution. And then also, my my ancestor and her family had to flee to Australia because of the involvement. So yes, this you know, this something a little bit with the politics. And I also never had any interest in studying law when I was in Myanmar. Actually, it was very discouraged within my family, friends and even the teachers. Like it's actually like my my parents and my teachers always talking to me to go into medicine or or you know, for engineering but never ever. Raise a word about going to legal studies. Yeah, so maybe it's also because legal and political career is not regarded highly within our community within my family cycle. And before I moved to Australia, I actually I actually wanted to study in Canada. But yeah, my visa got rejected. I think it was when I was in 14 years old. got rejected because the embassy in Thailand, the Canadian Embassy in Thailand, say, oh, you know, we do not think you have enough finances to cover your high school. And then they actually set it out that hey, you know, because you're holding the Myanmar passport, you know, we, we, we look into more, we want more information, more evidence about your finances and everything, even though my relatives my my mom's another sister, in Canada, who is willing to help me help us with all the fundings and everything. But yeah, it didn't go through. But yeah. There's also 2007 Saffron Revolution. I was that there's one little incident encounter that I had when I was 13 years old. That one day, I think, is around two o'clock. I still remember this. Because it is it just stick with me forever, is one day, I was walking from my teacher's house to mine. During the revolution, and on the way I got mixed up with the protesters. And I still remember the security forces around it, brought it up and started asking questions, use a little bit of force here and there. And when everything's cooled down, they start taking the names. And one of the security offices, I got beat up a bit. And, yeah, one of the security officer who knew my dad noticed me from the crowd and dragged me out of the crowd. And yeah, and thanks to him, I was not being sent to any undisclosed location or for interrogation or anything. But it was pretty, pretty tough period, at that time, like for, for for a person who is like, still under that still under 18 years old. to, to, to be to, to to encounter this situation. But anyway, fast forward. In 2011, when I was 16, and a half, 17 years old, I came to Australia to pursue my further studies. Like I say, I first I wanted to study engineering is not what I wanted, but you know, like, it's, it's actually preset into your career planning and all that for my parents to do engineering, but, but after a year of studies, I actually changed it to double degree like engineering and law. Because I also don't want my that because my dad really wants me to study engineering. So I also fulfill his desires. Because not every I have three brothers and my two brothers are not interested in academic so my, my dad really wants me to excel in, in my studies academics. So I want to do I wanted to do something for him. And I was I wanted to do something in for myself as well for law. Yeah, but the reason why I choose to study law is also because at that time, 2011 2012, Burmese, Myanmar politics, landscape has been changing. And I also had a chance to learn more about Myanmar politics from my friends here and also the news outlet. It was very different because back home before I came to Australia, there was no such thing as freedom of expression or speech. So it's everything is very sensitive. But yeah, he'll have to learn a lot is an eye opener. Even like studying law, was very challenging for me. During my first and second years, I've never learned anything relating to legal studies or anything ingrained into us during high school, even though it is very different in Australia where you can actually choose legal studies as one of the subjects in your secondary in high school which is very different. And yeah, and engineering was actually very, very well relatively quite easy to handle for me as is always about critical thinking and calculation. I'm not saying the law does not have a critical thinking as well, but I was used to, but the medical problems and all that. I still remember, I barely passed my first year for my law school. While getting relatively high marks for engineering subjects. It was a shock to see you know, like during the exam when everybody at law school, they are just writing pages and pages of answers to one exam question where I'm only prepared to write like a one page maximum during my law school exams, but yeah, during my second and third year of university, I had a chance to work with one of the professors at the UNSW Law School. My name is Melissa crouch. I translated her with a lot of constitution law texts from Myanmar to English for her books. And I also had a chance to do a few internships at Baker McKenzie office in Yangon. At that time, predominantly focusing on intellectual property.

Yeah, and before finishing my law school, I had a chance to volunteer HIV AIDS, Legal Center, HIV AIDS Legal Center, and also Colorado Center for refugee law. From this organization, I had to work on both policy and practical side of the refugee cases. I was being charged with updating factsheets for Rohingya situation and also, most of the cases that i i Help for the lawyers at HIV AIDS, legal clinics in some of the cases from Rohingya background so yeah, that's where I, my, my interest in immigration law started to blossom. And after finishing law school and went straight to practicing immigration, I didn't even think consider about joining clerkship or like, my all my other friends in law school did, I was very hard on and I was I knew it already that I want to do immigration law from ever since I finished my law school. And yeah, in 2021, the coop happened. February the coop have been and I feel the there's a feeling of responsibility just hit me. That is like I would like to have affect the people with what I know. And along the way, I also want to learn more from the from the people that I'm helping with, because learning is not just about law, it's about everything you know, about not just about your career, your life, people experience and all that. And that's why I reached out to a new GE sorry, car toiletry and also Myanmar Student Association. The association was quite active. In the early days of after the coop happened I still remember my phone kept ringing day and I from people here and overseas. This is also the also the time where Australian government has closed the borders due to COVID. Even for those who already have a visa to enter Australia, but Australian Government doesn't allow people to come back in you have to apply for a specific travel exemption permit mostly on the ground that if you're working for critical health sector or hospitality sector, for those who have an Australian Australian citizen or permanent resident, family members in Australia, etc. These These people may have a chance to come back to Australia. But for those people who are trying to flee Myanmar, to recoup the government or maybe the assessing authority for the travel exemption, do not see it as a very compelling at that time. So yeah, I also did like a fact sheet or a guide on how to seek protection in Australia. How to Apply for offshore refugee visas how to submit a travel exemption with assistance from my friends at the Myanmar Student Association. Yeah, we did a fact sheet guidebook and the as a as an advisor from Grayson perspective to a new EEG. I also have like an information webinar basically answering all the questions Mima plus Beholder have in terms of the passport issue, immigration related issues and etc. So after finishing my day job offline, I've been helping answering individuals from the Myanmar community with their visa questions and held on submit their own application fully or partly pro bono. And yeah, and apart from Myanmar crisis, when the African fell to Taliban, I also volunteer as a triage supervisor at Asylum Seeker Resource Center in Melbourne, as they created like specific legal clinic at the time, and we managed to submit a total of 100 applications visa application during its eight months existence. So yeah, that's, that's, that's who I am. In terms of what I do. And how I've been helping Burmese community with. With, with from the immigration perspective, excellent.

Brad 16:10

That's that's quite comprehensive and overview there. So let's get into the meat of it. Because the Australian Government's history with refugees has probably given you a lot of different types of experiences to work with. So let's try to be a little bit systematic and break up the the Myanmar people here. So the way I see it, and correct me if I'm wrong, there are basically four categories. You've got people within Myanmar people outside Myanmar people who are displaced people who are not so we would have Myanmar people who are here in the west on a visa, but that visa will expire. Myanmar people who are living in foreign countries as refugees without a visa. Myanmar people who are within Myanmar have been internally displaced. And Myanmar people within Myanmar who have not been internally displaced who are applying for a visa, would those be the four categories as far as immigration law sees them? Yes.

Ko Ko Aung 17:07

I can see that. Yeah, you can see that. Okay,

Brad 17:09

so, so let's then start with the ones we're in Myanmar, who have not become internally displaced, but who are trying to apply for a visa so that they can escape, you know, the potential of warfare who wants to escape the dictatorship, they want to escape the economic hardships? What chances do they have currently, to get a visa to a Western country?

Ko Ko Aung 17:33

Yeah, I cannot comment on other countries. But in terms of Australia, it is a very challenging moment, it has been quite challenging for those who wants to come here on a student visa, or just even to visit a family member or just want a holiday in Australia from Myanmar. Because the case of officers quite focusing, not quite the case, officers focus a lot on the current economy and political landscape in the AMA. And basically, from the forum, or from my experience from from my other colleagues experience, from my friends experience, I could say that eight out of 10 applications of these applications are getting failure, rejection. Sometimes case officers are very generous and explaining why they refuse that this for those type of cases is good to learn, get to, we got to know where their decision making process is coming from. So that you know when we try it again, try again, or maybe try again for other visa applicants is actually give us a idea of what to expect or how we can how we can change the way we do things. But mostly case officers are very, very, they don't very difficult. They don't really give us any reasons. They just they cause in the rule of law. Every case has to be assessed on their own merits. But for the Burmese situation for the NEMA people, everybody has been generalized. And even though if you submit a crazy number of documents, to the government Case Officer don't tend to look at everything that you are submitting. And maybe they they may have but they don't put it on the decision. They just they just quickly made the review A decision based on the country's profile, not the individual characteristic of the application. That's, that's where I feel a little bit. I feel very concerned, not know a little bit because yes, our country is in a turmoil. Things are not that things are not getting better yet. But the thing is, I think it's for almost every part of the world at the moment. Even Myanmar has a lot to offer as well, for Australian community. A and also I wouldn't Australia is famous for is multiculturalism and also accepting overseas students, the education system is, is one of the top in the wall. So our country have a lot of talented young skill, individual students that want to further their studies. And, and I don't want them to, you know, not saying discriminative but, you know, please allow them to give it give them a chance to study here and show them show them the values, you know, because the students are also you know, like not that their focus is not only Australia as well, if they can, they also want to, if Australia is shutting their borders for Myanmar, they may also go to Canada, US but the thing is, is Australia's still is the best attraction for students, because it's not that far compared to UK or US, which is the another part of the wall Australia is doing an Asia Pacific. So, it is it is in terms of distance, it is quite accessible. And also not comment I cannot comment on Tasmania or South Australia etc. But in terms of Western Australia put Sydney even in Canberra Mabin permies community here has been getting bigger, bigger and people have been very, I can see that people uniting and and in terms of the feeling in terms of those students who are missing home is actually give them a close knit closeness, which, which is a little bit rare for me when I was back in my own university life. I still remember we had one fools started a new math student association in UNSW. And even that group has been doing really well. creating so many events, activities for for numerous students, newbies and existing students and even alumni. So, but the thing is, the amount of students coming from Myanmar, which we compare to other even countries from Southeast Asia like Thailand, or, or Malaysia or Indonesia, our population is very low in terms of studies go wide. So but I don't know how it's gonna pan out since 2021. Until now, the refusal rate is too high, which which doesn't sit well with me because it actually blocked the career progression and of our younger generation. But actually, we recently published not not we ABC recently published an article about Myanmar visitor visa been denied without without looking at every documents that visa applicants give to the office. It was released yesterday. It talks about you know, like accountability of the case officer, you know, like, for example, if the lawyers made mistakes in the submission, you know, we, our clients don't like it. That's a duty to our clients and also to the administration of the law. We have so much responsibility. Any case officer I understand they have 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of visa applications that they have to process but at least one of them to get some time they take a lot of time to process the visa application as well. So just a better decision making process from the government. And in I would like the case officer to consider you know, all the documents. In each case my case not just purely straight away for refusing our applications on how our entry landscape is at the moment.

Brad 25:03

So let's, let's talk about this then. So the picture you're painting is quite a negative picture as it stands. So you're saying that we have people in a situation where you and I definitely understand the context in Myanmar, but immigration might not. So would, would immigration at the very least be aware that people from Myanmar who are making applications are making applications either from a conflict zone, or from a region that is adjacent to a conflict zone? Where things like electricity, fuel and even food supply are unreliable? Is this been taken into consideration?

Ko Ko Aung 25:43

No, it's not. They just, they just mentioned the amount as a whole. And that is where my concern is like you need to it will be grateful case officers do tasek not just focusing a lot on I'm not even sure that they are even looking at the country information like defect report, and etc. I don't know. Because the decisions are like oh, you know, because of your because of the country's economy and political in stable, instead not being stable, we are not convinced that you will be a genuine with, you will be a genuine visitor, we are not we are not, we, we were not sure that you will be a genuine student. And even though those students have to pay, because in order to apply for a student visa, you need to first enroll in University of colleges in Australia, and you cannot enroll just for free, you have to pay a certain amount, even though it is not a full amount that you have to pay for us in order for the universities and colleges to issue you with a confirmation of enrollment COA letter in order to be able to apply for a student visa. So some of the students that I've seen like my friends, brothers and sisters, they'll be like, oh, you know, they are also going to a university in in, in Canberra and new or New South Wales universities or Sydney or UTS, Western Sydney, all these top universities that Australian government has named as top eight. The policy says that if you're going to top a university, the student visa student visa application have to be streamlined, streamlined as I know, a lot of evidence have to be provided, like bank statements, and I still remember like my parents have to show a lot of assets and everything. It was crazy compared to other other student visa applicants from other countries who who does not have to show that amount of financial capability or writing a two pages paragraph about what I would do after I finished my studies, do I have a reason to go home, you know, these are the things that we have to provide is a lot. So the thing is, the students have already paid like 20% 30%, or even half of the enrollment, half of the like, first semester fees or something. And then in order for them to be able to apply for a student visa, but when the case officer refusing, that's also another thing that they have to do like, either try to withdraw the amount that they have already paid or some school or university saying hey, we're not going to refund or or these are a lot of consequences that people have to face that government case officer may not be thinking, you know, and in trying to study in a top university is not not not really it's a big ask in terms of finances and everything you know, so, if they really worry about it the students will even continue to study and all that look at the file, you know, please consider every single document for them to generate and as you have pointed out, right, like if you're applying from like Yangon or Mandalay or where you are applying from these are the also these are the things that they should be considering and one of the type of evidence that people visa applicants also providers, the parents business and ownership or property asset and etc and then and then it's funny because Case Officer even if You provided some careful case officers say that you can just sell them off. Okay? You can just sell your property, you can just change your ownership to another person. As soon as you come here on a visitor visa, or so we're like, Hey, we are trying to follow your policy. Some businesses, not some businesses, most of the businesses that people are running from our country are family businesses that run for generation and generations, you know, they are not going to be selling like one day to fund or completely move all of their assets from Myanmar to Australia as well. And it's, it's, it's a mess, sorry to be very negative. But that's how I have been seeing in it is even the article, the ABC article says it's like a, it's like you're trying to buy a lottery ticket, actually, to come to Australia to visit some of the case that we have some of the stories that we have received from my friends, I actually asked a few of my friends to pitch the story to the news is, one of them is she had a wedding at the start of this year. First, you wanted to hold a wedding in Hunter Valley. And she actually paid for everything wedding, oh my god, so expensive. Right, booked the venue and all that. And then they apply a visitor visa for for her parents. And then she provided everything like parents, family ties, business ties, social ties, culture ties, to Myanmar, to show that they have a reason to go back. And also and also like wedding receipt, booking receipt, and, like, detailed itinerary of what her parents will do. But it got rejected. And never considered any information that the division looks like they have, they haven't considered any of the things that I just said to you like ties and receipts and all that and they just straight away refuse it. And she had to change the change a wedding to Bangkok, to somewhere in Thailand, I forgot where is it, but last minute, she has to change it. And all the money that she had paid to the venue in Australia. It's not we're not talking about a couple of $100 $100 is like 3000 4000, or some sort. Sorry, I don't know the figures and details. But it's around that it's it's a live once in a lifetime event and then got being denied. And then, you know, and we're not we're not even going there for those family. Those parents who would like to visit the sons and daughters graduation come here, it was really on a graduation in which they have actually paid a lot of money to the Australian Government. But they were not able to enter Australia on two reasons. One is their visa rejected, or the visa application take too long from the case officer that when they start processing the file, the wedding authority, the graduation date has already been passed. And then they say, Oh, we don't have a reason to give you a visa, you know, so. So yeah, these are the little bit of a in terms of people who wants to come to Australia, the current landscape is quite leaning towards a negative side. Based on my experience.

Brad 33:50

So, a couple a couple of things from what you've said have become clear to me. The first it seems to be the case that people who are residing in cities in in your mouth, who are not currently in a conflict zone and have not become internally displaced are in a position where they have to apply for a tourist visa or a student visa or or some other type of visa that is not directly connected to the fact that they are in desperate need of humanitarian relief and and humanitarian resettlement. And the second is that the entire immigration system, as far as students are concerned, and tourists are concerned seems to be predicated on the idea that coming to Australia should not be the first step towards becoming a permanent migrant to Australia, that everything is predicated on you coming for a period of time and then returning to your home country. Would that be an accurate description?

Ko Ko Aung 34:53

Yes, that is an accurate description. Yeah.

Brad 34:57

So then, is there any mechanism Is there any legal framework that people who are currently trapped in Myanmar but are not internally displaced persons can appeal to, to be resettled and to be taken into other countries like Australia, so that they don't have to become internally displaced or have to become refugees? Do they have options?

Ko Ko Aung 35:20

Yes, they do. But it's not a very straightforward process. One of the example is one of the cohort is like students who come to study while studying gain work experience, because after you finish the student visa, depending on what you study, say, for example, if you study a diploma level, the government will give you 18 months post study visa, for you to be able to find an employer to gain work experience and all that. And then after that, what this diploma let's say, for example, if it is bachelor degree, you will get at least two years visa, postgraduate visa, if you're studying masters, three years, at least PhD five years and whatnot, okay. So, during that, post study, graduate visa duration, you can find employment. Some people find a relation, like they enter a relationship, they become family, and then at that time, they can explore a family visa program, you know, or some, like those people who find employment. Depending on the work experience, they can also apply for skill independent permanent residency visa, which is like a point as Visa depending on how many points you gain, and you had a better chance of getting invited from the Australian Government to set up here, it's like a green card system thing in us. And and if you already have an employer, and then your your relationship with the employer is, is very good and amicable, then the employer can sponsor you, so that you can continue working for them in Australia for a certain number of years. And after that, they can also sponsor you on a permanent residency, that that's how people do it. So this, this this one way. The other way is that say for example, if you have already finished finish a degree in Myanmar and also, you have some work experience, you can also try a direct PR from Myanmar. But the chance of getting a direct permanent residency in Australia is very, very difficult. Especially when you're talking about skilled independent visa where you you have to compete with Myanmar nationals who are in Australia, Myanmar national, who are not in Myanmar, but in other country like Singapore, who was the one to come to Australia. And you're not just about it's not about just Myanmar, you're talking about other skill candidates from around the world who wants to be invited by the government to settle down. So for those people who are in Myanmar is the 10th is quite low, let's say, point visa you, you are competing with a lot of different skill people. And also, number two is if you're outside of Australia, like if you apply for a job, since you're not outside of says you're not in Australia, the job no matter how skilled you are right. An employee here wants to find an immediate solution to resolve the skilled labor shortages. And even if you apply for a work visa from Myanmar, it will take like a few months to process by the government. So finding a employer itself is quite difficult is a huge challenge. Even if you find an employer, the processing time takes a while the requirements are also quite high. So it's a little bit it's difficult for people to just migrate purely out of like coming straight out of Myanmar. That's why a lot of people have been trying on like, for example, for those who just finished their studies, they just want to further their studies by masters and all that that's that's how I've been seeing and then a lot of also, family visa program. The family visa program got a lot of visa applicants as well like they like people meet online. And then they, they they they have correspondents from Facebook or whatnot. And then they meet in another country country, like Thailand or Singapore. And then after that they get married, or they just apply for a partner visa, Australian partner visa or like that's family visas. And in terms of family visas, there is also a parent visa, parent visa, parent visa takes a while to process like, a while as in takes a lot of like five years or six years for the government to process. So like, for example, like me, I want to bring my mom even though she does not want to come to Australia at all, because she does not like a culture here. Because she, she because when I go to work, she is always alone. So she doesn't like that much. So let's say if I want to bring my mom to Australia there, I cannot apply for permanent residency for her because my family composition. My two brothers are not Australian citizen or permanent resident only I am the permanent resident here. So I can so that there are a lot of rules around there. And then even if I can sponsor her to apply for permanent residency, then it will take some time for the government to process depending on how much money you pay to the government is like, very, very expensive. We're talking about 40,000 or something, just to get a visa. So this parent visa for you. And so what people are trying to do is trying to ask the parents to apply a temporary visa like visitor visa so that like expert like for example, like my mom to come here on a visitor visa first, to see whether she likes she likes it here or not. Because it all comes down to her as well. Right? Even though we would like to bring our family everybody to here, but it all comes down to the subjective intention as well. Try to let her test out the water here, whether she likes it or not. After that, we explore different other visitors to continue to keep my family members legally a widow with a visa. Yeah, so now even that first step visitor visa is extremely difficult for for for people here for people from from Nima national because government knows that nine, maybe 80 to 90% of all the people that are coming here on a short visa like student or visitor has a definite intention to continue stay in Australia. And they that's why I ended also understand where the government refuse refusals are coming from.

Brad 42:47

Okay. But nevertheless, does Australia not have any sort of obligate? Like, does the international community not recognize any obligation towards people who live in countries that are undergoing strife, internal conflict? You know, instability in general? Like, do we have to wait until they become refugees before we take action? Can we not act before they become refugees?

Ko Ko Aung 43:16

Very good question. I will love the government that thing like that. But in a very practical level, depending on the visa that you are applying, like, they have a set of rules that they have to follow. And, and one of the one of the ingredients in the policy, let's say example, for example, is this is applicable to all the temporary visas, not the permanent visa temporary visas. One thing that is in common is they will look at your country's profile. And if they see somewhere that the country is not in a good shape. There'll be like, oh, sorry, like temporary visa may not be the one. You know, like, like, for example, like visitor in student. Most of the refusal come from that.

Brad 44:07

But so that, if anything that seems to be contrary to logic, if if we're looking at a country where people have a desperate humanitarian need to escape that country, you're saying that the end result is that they're actually less likely to be granted any form of visa protection, because they are more in need of visa protections.

Ko Ko Aung 44:30

You can say like that, but one thing that I have also seen is one, that this way the media attention and everything also comes into play. Very, very good question. Because one, one the Yeah, one, one Myanmar could happen in February 2021. Right. We have our own protests and all that. The media attention, government response is not that great in our opinion, which can go into a very detail later. But when I have to compare to like Ukraine or Afghan, not quite i We are still waiting for how the government is going to respond to Gaza issue and all that. But from my experience our I would like to focus on those to Ukraine and even Hong Kong, Hong Kong, Ukraine and Afghan situation. Yep. As soon as Hong Kong situation conflict happened with China, and the Australian Government made an announcement that, hey, we are going to prioritize a visa applications from Hong Kong and from Australia, doesn't matter where you are, we will prioritize for you. We will even give you like an automatic five years extension, even if you don't ask, we will give you straight away. So they just automatically extend the visa for five years. So yeah, that's one thing that I have realized. And for Hong Kong and for Ukraine, yes, I understand is, I'm not saying that, you know, people are not affected over there or anything, like I am just saying, in terms of the government response from Australia, like Ukraine as well, Australian government actually allows visitor visa application, and to be streamlined and prioritized. They can also apply for in country refugee visa, like, subclass 445. Do order to apply for this four to 445, you cannot just apply it from from yourself, you have to reach out to the government to apply for it. So these are the options that the government gave, there's like a temporary protection visa, for Ukraine, Ukrainians, even if you apply for visa, you are being streamlined so that people can actually get out of the country as quickly as possible, which is very new for us, which never happened to our country. African also, when the couple falls to Taliban, like a lot of even like legal centers in Australia, they actually set up like a mini clinic, just for Afghanistan situation and and that's why I volunteered where we submitted like 607 100 applications and quite quite a lot has been approved. And they also have to wait like one or two years for the rest for for the applications to go through. What I'm trying to say is the government response is very, very different. When it comes to Myanmar situation, and so, like, even for those people like like, or I just say, from the Ama Nationals getting rejection, if you go and look at the Burmese Community Forum in on Facebook, people have been complaining about this since could happen. And and Sayadaw actually, and UGC RPh group also spoke to Australian Government about this, they lobby a lot about this Numa Numa campaign network MCN has also been talking about this, but the government response is, has hasn't been that great and, and they don't really solve the issue of you know, hey, you know, like here, the people that are coming here actually showing the resources that they can to be able to meet the legal requirements that you have, you have, you have set up, you have put in the policy or law, they want to meet it and they are showing that they meet it. But then you are straight away refusing them from political ground, that these people that some of the people are not everybody is also politically involved as well. They are just law abiding citizen, they're just they're just working on their own, you know, not being in conflict with anybody, they actually put it in the statement. And you know, but never consider nothing always very generalized. So, that's where I am. That's why I'm lost in terms of you know, I'm helping but at the same time, end result is not not as I have expected. For those people, I'm not very concerned with people who are currently in Australia. I'm really really concerned with people who wants to just leave Myanmar due to the situation. And when also one other thing that I also want to highlight is when I was studying in 2020 12 to 2017 2018 I have met with I have met a lot of friends from Myanmar background because I We actually started up a new mastering Association and then a lot of my friends who are very eager, you know, to go back to Myanmar, and they have no intention whatsoever to stay in Australia at all. And their main intention is just to go back and contribute to the Myanmar community of what they learned. So that things are getting better, like economics and everything or getting better over them. So all in all, I want to say in Australian government, not to just generalizing, you know, people, even though I understand Australia is a very good place to stay. Not a lot of people share this sentiment. And you know, and, yeah, that's this a reality. And I feel though I feel for my friends back home as well, because they actually reached out to me or, you know, at that time, we thought we have made a decision, you know, which we think is very good. But because of current government, current junta, the way they are running, they also struggling a lot. And then yeah, it's it's hard to say it's like a spider web. Yeah. So that this this way that things are.

Brad 51:27

So this is all so quite depressing. But then let's move to a slightly more pressing case. So what about the people who are internally displaced in Myanmar, so they have not yet crossed the border, they're not internationally recognized as refugees, they cannot be recognized as refugees. But we have a lot of people in Myanmar who are living in IDP camps, who are subjected to regular attacks by the military despite this, do they have a pathway to resettlement in Australia on the humanitarian grounds?

Ko Ko Aung 52:02

There's a pathway for it, which I just mentioned, a 445 visa, but I have never, I have seen other nationals like African being granted with with this visa, like emergency rescue type of visas. But maybe maybe other my other people in the legal community in Australia maybe may correct me on this, but I have, I haven't seen one being approved for people who are currently displaced internally. In Myanmar, so

Brad 52:45

it's not for internally displaced people really. So

Ko Ko Aung 52:49

there is a temporary protection visas, like it's under the subclass 200. So, so in Australia, all the visa have subclasses and classes, classes, normally, people don't use it, but subclasses are those numbers, three digit numbers. And for those people who are not in Australia, enter the refugee cohort, the visas that you can apply, like offshore refugee visa, pro program, and under there, when you submit the visa application, you are applying every visa, and that program of your refugee visa program. And then the case officer, when they are going to look at your profile, they will choose the category that you meet, for example, like emergency rescue is something that you can actually apply from Myanmar, from the country, but other visas like subclass 200, just a normal refugee visas. The other let's say, to 200, woman, at least visa by all these other visa and other offshore refugee visa, you have to be outside of the country in order to be able to apply. So that's how the government system works. And then when in to give you an answer very to give you because I don't really have statistics to back it up, because I have never seen anybody inside the country who doesn't matter whether they are internally displaced or NOT TRY THIS offshore refugee program. Because I have never seen any approval from that category. Even though there is a pathway to do it. The reason being that is even if you meet the definition of a refugee, as per the migration act 1958 and Migration Regulations 1994 Even if you meet the definition of a refugee, there's also one other thing is there a certain type of V There's in Australia that are being kept being kept smi every financial year the government will announce that for the offshore refugee visa program, they're going to bring in this amount of people. Okay, and at the moment, so not at the moment, like, every year, this the amount that they have prescribed, like maybe 300,000, or something. A is designed for all, refugee at any location around the world is not just in Myanmar or in like you're sharing with other people. And then when I say about Ukraine and Afghan, they are also part of this cohort. So Australian government, the way they make the decision is all sorry, even though we understand you meet the definition of a refugee, a, our program size is quite limited. And this year, we have already been running out of allocations. So we have to refuse it, unfortunately, you want to try it, try it again. But you want to appeal

Brad 56:13

clear that this number is, is set by the government, correct? Yes, yes, sir. by the Australian Government. Yeah, this is this is not an act passed by Parliament. It's not legislation. It's not constitutional. The government could change this number if it wanted to, yes, they wanted to. So they've artificially imposed a limit on the number of people that they will accept. And then they using that number that they themselves have made as an excuse to not help people who would otherwise qualify for humanitarian resettlement.

Ko Ko Aung 56:42

This is one way to put it. Actually, they, for example, they have a right being, the law allows them to set the number, but in terms of how many they want to set is under their control. And then they get most of the refusal, not most of every decision that is come to me or the refusal decision that come to me. And this program, refugee visa program is always on the same ground that they refuse.

Brad 57:16

So it just seems like an easy excuse for them to us to simply not accept people, when they could very easily just raise the number of resettlements that they accept and then acceptable people.

Ko Ko Aung 57:26

Exactly. Exactly. That's, that's, that's why I've been speaking to a lot of people from our community that we and a lot of people are also advocating for lobbying for a better transparency from the government on where the where the number goes, and, and so far, we have yet to see it.

Brad 57:53

So that's okay. That's just on this point, what what we're discussing. It occurs to me if you're living in an IDP camp, you talk about the 200 series visa, you talk about the 405 visa. If you're living in an IDP camp, how are you expected to go through the actual administrative process? Like can you do this by an application that you can fill out on your phone? Or do you physically have to transport yourself to Yangon and go to the embassy? What's the methodology? Oh,

Ko Ko Aung 58:25

I have never seen that. People cannot just go to the embassy because embassies Australia embassy, everything is online at the moment. Normally, people there are a lot of organization here, like government funded legal centers, like Rex refugee asylum case, casework. Sorry, these racks, a lot of legal centres. And I think in Brisbane, there's one organization called Wales ILS. They are also part of the refugee program as well. You can actually reach out to them and to help you apply for these visas. And normally how people do it is if you have a family member, or if you have a friend here in Australia, they can propose you they can endorse you to submit the refugee visas filling out the forms online. That's how people normally do it. You can in a very, very rare occasion, you can apply it on paper, but if you want to apply it on paper you have to go to embassy in Yangon and during COVID It is not really a good idea to go there because embassy is usually close and not quite sure about how it is at the moment. Because every other visas we just have to submit it online. So That's how the in terms of procedures wise. Okay, so

Brad 1:00:04

you can even if you're not located nearby to to Australian government representatives, you can still go through the process, you can still apply all like you can submit the documentation. Yes,

Ko Ko Aung 1:00:14

yes. And on that topic as well, I have, I've come across some people say like, oh, you know, even after we submit, we don't receive any acknowledgement that sometimes the acknowledgement letter comes like, three or four months after you have submitted the application. And then a government saying like, Oh, we acknowledge you have applied for it, please wait for a period of time, we'll get back to you if you need further information, if we need further information, etc, etc. Even that, sometimes, I still remember and ug office in Australia, one time told me that we submitted these applications, but when we contacted the embassy, he or even Australian Consulate in Bangkok, or Department of Home Affairs, they cannot find it. They cannot find where the applications are. So, so it's so yeah, it's these things, you have to expect a spot because it's not online. Most mental paper loss men always have the issue.

Brad 1:01:16

Okay, good. So, okay, so if someone, let's say someone has actually crossed the border, let's say they're living, you know, near the Myanmar border in Thailand, let's say they're in Chiang Mai, or something like this. Now, they qualify as a as a refugee in theory, and my understanding is they can now reach out and they can they can enlist the assistance of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, does that improve their chances of resettlement?

Ko Ko Aung 1:01:47

It is it is, if you have, if you are recognized by the United Nations, as a refugee, or UNHCR, as a refugee, then yes, they are highly prioritized. So just a little bit on that the way how it was with the refugee category visa is a goes, it goes according to the priority list. So these subclass numbers that I just told you like 200 212, and 132, and one, four, they are not that they are there for priority reason as well. Let's say for example, if you have a if you're coming, if you're if you're a woman a risk to fall, you, you will get a better chance of your being your application will be prioritized compared to just a subclass 200 visas, when you do not have any family members support in Australia, or friends supporting Australia, that's that's one way to prioritize is another way to prioritize this is let's say you have a de let's say, for example, this is a couple right, like a wife, husband and wife and three children, wife and two children, wife and three children got a refugee visa, and they are currently in Australia. They want to bring the debt bring bring the dad to Australia as well. And at that time, because because your family members come to Australia on the refugee visa that you've got, you're being assessed and what we call a split family member provision. And then you get more prioritize. So compared to what your ties are. Who, so when you submit a refugee visa as well, there are two ways to submit it. One way is if you do not have any support from UNHCR, you don't have any ties or in Australia who can propose you to apply for this visa, you just submit it on his own for the application, and they are ranked as the lowest in the priority. You can still apply for it. But you have you have grounds to meet the refugee but you are being prioritized at the lowest. And for those people who have a family member or who just even have a friend or relative can propose you to you could think and they have to submit a proposal form. I think it's 681. Please don't quote me on that. But that's the form there that they have to propose. And then the visa application has to submit together with that that's how you how you do it. And then depending on who propose you who your proposal also affects the priority as well. Let's say in that case example that I gave to you like they want to bring the debt to Australia. In those cases they have been prioritized highly. But for example, if you just know a friend who is not holding who never hold any protection visas or refugee visa in Australia, they are just here like Australian citizen from from the beginning from Cisco or they become Australian permanent resident from the skill visas. They are being ranked lower. So that's how the the program works in terms of offshore refugee visa.

Brad 1:05:16

So it's still not great. So there are a lot of different subcategories. So you're kind of saying that you have to hit a specific combination of additional factors to really have a good chance, is that accurate? That's accurate. Okay, so and it sounds to me like if if you are a sort of elderly or if you are male, if you are not sort of family connected, your chances will be lower? That's correct. Okay, so that's, that's still not, not? Still not great. It's still not great. So, like, realistically, if someone is currently in Chiang Mai, and and I'm sure that we all know, people in this situation or in Chiang Mai, applying for refugee protections, the Thai government is definitely not going to give them refugee protections. What sort of chances would they have to successfully be resettled to Australia?

Ko Ko Aung 1:06:13

Oh, usually, what people, what people have been trying is from the offshore refugee visa program, and the chances maybe I'm more like, I'm not being negative or anything. But I'm just looking in terms of statistical that statistics that the Australian government has released to me. Now, not the recent statistics. But last year, only 33 applications out of I don't know how many might be more than 1000 of your refugee Visa Program has been approved by the Australian Government. That's why I'm looking at, then it tells you a lot about how offshore refugee visa works. So that there are still those people that I just mentioned to you who has applied for submitted offshore refugee visa, we're still waiting, I have to give that a little bit of, I have to give them hope. Because if you do not get a review of the decision straight, straight away, you apply, because if they want to refuse you, they will, they will give you a refusal letter in maybe in two weeks, or even a month time. Just even coding because Myanmar situation is especially people watching my mess out they are the one who has to flee. Nobody wants to play, right. But they have to flee because of the reasons that are not under their control. So in those situations, they, of course, this is case by case, but first part of that refugee definition, they will definitely meet it, okay. But it depends on person to person, but they will meet it. But the other part about relocation settlement program that Australia have in terms of allocation, that is where government love to not love to, but they like to the refusals rate are always from there. So let's say if they want to refuse you, they can just straight away refuse you in two weeks or two months time, that's very quick. But if your case, already got an acknowledgement letter, the government says we will process but still haven't got anything from the government, there's a little bit of hope in there, because they're just government just have a lot of cases for them to handle. So that's why they're taking their time. They actually do a triage and then they already a they already get rid of those applications that they are not considered very quickly. But now it's just a matter of time, they may ask you for more information, or they will ask you to do health check or whatnot. So you have to wait for them. So in order to answer your question very truthfully, honestly, offshore refugee visa is the one that people love to apply for it. But the chances of getting there are very tough. We are looking at negative end of the spectrum, but they're still like, two digit number that we have seen a getting approved last year. So there's still something that government still at least gave. So that's that's, that's one one visa options that I can think of the other thing is Yeah, the other thing is also this is a very, very new program pilot program. The Australian government has announced this is kind of like a labor agreement is called a skill refugee Labor Agreement. They are not part of the refugee visa cohort, so that allocations and everything is not applicable to scale refugee Labor Agreement program. They have their own cohort called On allocation, but the thing is, for the other of your review visa, you can just apply on your own even if you do not have any proposal anything. Yeah, but and but this one is because it's under the scale. So you need an Australian employer who has an interest to tap into this agreement program. And then they are the one who needs to give you a job position and then and show the show the government that they have active skill labor need, and then they want to, they have look at your resume. And then and then they they are willing to help you and they need you to come and work here in Australia. But skill refugee visa, I've done a lot for Afghanistan, nationals and Syrian Palestine, I've done a lot because they their community here is competitive Myanmar community, they have been here for a long time. So they're quite said of yours, they have their own businesses is the business. These businesses want to help their own kind from the country as well. So that's how they have been doing it. And that's what I am proposing to the NEMA community here as well. We, our community here is also getting bigger and bigger. A lot of people have been starting their own business and then giving back to the community as well. So they might also want to consider that option. Because scale refugee, sorry, refugee from Myanmar, this displays people, like a lot of them has a lot to offer, to the country that they do the country that help them who is willing to help them. You know, so they have a lot of skills that contribute back to the community here as well. So that is where another option that people can explore. But nobody has touched yet, which I'm advocating for people to try this skill refugee visa program. And the other thing is, as if you have a family member in Australia, like you have a partner. I'm not saying that that partner has to be Australian citizen or permanent resident, but even if you if your partner is holding like a temporary visa student visa, you can still apply for dependent visa on the student visa as well. But depending on your family ties, there are also other family visa programs that partnership visa or even if you even even if you have, like if your parents and if you if you are if you have children in Australia, who are Australian citizen or PA, there is a permanent visa option for you who and also the other thing is, let's say if your parents are in Australia, and you are like maybe under 25 years old, then you can you can also explore child visa as well. But depending on the visa that you are going from refugee visa program, like not refugee visa program, but the other visas, there's a relative cost to it. And the cost is not cheap. And people who are displaced, they have to run, you know, they don't have all these financial support that the government may consider. Government should consider as well. Not everybody that have all these finances to you know, consider other visa options as well. So, but these are the options that they have.

Brad 1:13:43

So because you talked about the community, and I think you're very accurate in pointing out that the Myanmar community is quite sizable, I mean, the largest community would be tough, but there are still sizable Myanmar communities popping up in Sydney and Melbourne. And they've been expanding pretty consistently. So is there is there sort of enough of a community that that there are Myanmar own businesses that could sort of engaging along these lines?

Ko Ko Aung 1:14:13

Not so much yet. Because it is also another thing that I want to talk about is where people want to focus on a lot of community events in Australia, Sydney, especially because I don't know about any other states. We have fundraising on Sunday usually on Villawood or there's like specific special events like Shawn Turner talk is happening in two weeks or, or how to say the other events like the way Linden and to do a short film and Premiere premiere of the film or COBOL movie, all these events, we have a lot of events, but every time these events were being held, they are not. They are held for one specific reason is to get enough funds to, to transfer to, to the, to those people on the ground to help them with their mission. So that's a very, very, that's the end goal that everybody has to everybody is fighting for everybody should be fighting. Well, I agree with that. But in terms of any other to get out of the people from borders and stuff. Not a lot of emphasis have been put in there. So that's why I like the IV. Because because I'm also like, a lawyer just practicing in the very private sector, not unlike I'm not a public government servant or anything. So I've been reaching out to people that I know. And because there's a lot of effort going into there as well. Like, for example, I skill refugee pilot program, the employer has to pay government a certain amount of money as well. That's why people are a little bit hesitant to touch on the program. But all I'm asking is to the community is at least give give it a try just with one case, and then see how it goes. And if it goes insightfully then the other things are going to be the other cases will flow like very naturally. But yeah, so not a lot of things have been put into there. And yeah, that is something that we have to work on.

Brad 1:16:44

And so talking about the Australian context, just because I think this is a very pressing issue. And I think a lot of people who would be listening would be in a situation like this or would be the familiar with people who are in situations like this. We have a lot of Myanmar people who are residing overseas, many residing here in Australia, on a legal visa with a legal passport, but that passport expires not Not long now like Myanmar passport only lasts for five years and the who was already two and a half years ago. So many are facing the situation where they cannot get a new visa because they don't have a passport. Or they just don't get a new visa and they faced with the possibility of going back to Myanmar. So what is it that these people can do because for many of them going back to Myanmar is not an option because they have been involved in rallies and and raising money for CDM and PDF and all this sort of stuff. What what can they do? This

Ko Ko Aung 1:17:43

is where the Austrian we have to acknowledge how the how supportive Australian government is in that sense. Last year, Australian Government, Department of Home Affairs, head of the department of Home Affairs actually made the announcement that they are going to make sure they will prioritize people from Myanmar in Australia, those those people in Myanmar from Myanmar in Australia who have difficulty returning to their home home country who cannot get a passport renewed because of their political involvement. They actually they actually encourage people to get a get an asylum get a protection in Australia and this protection visa is is even though it is a permanent visa, let's say if you want to go back to the country, of course, we're on a production visa and the country is is our country is not getting better, then if you go back the protection visa is going to be cancelled. But of course no nobody in the right mind who have very difficulty going back to the country will not be doing that. And reduction visa is designed in a way that it captures the difficulties that our national our people are facing. And number one is I would just encourage people not to be noticed there. I really suggest people not to stay illegally in Australia. It will just further complicate a lot of things in their different ways to legalize your stay in Australia. If you would like to seek a protection or asylum that's one way to do it as well. And this will give you while the department is processing IT department is processing time also is very very easily it can take months two years. But during that time you will be given a proper a bridging visa which will allow you to live in Australia lawfully and most of the time it will also come with a full walk rights and, and a pathway to study and continue studying if you are still attending school or university. So that's this, this very positive for people here who are very difficult, who have difficulty. Their visa expiring government does not actually give us like automatic visa extension or anything, but at least they give us this venue so that they, they have one less, one less thing to worry. And then also passport. If you apply for protection visa in Australia, it doesn't matter whether you have a valid passport or not. And after you get the protection visas, you can request the government to issue you with what we call a travel document. And, and if you wish to travel to another country other than NEMA, but you also need to at that time, you have to check with the authorities, like in other countries that you wish to travel, whether they accept Australian travel documents or not. But we most of the time they do, then of course, you have to make sure that you you have done your homework. But that's where the difference is, that's where a little bit of light positive things that's why I can be positive, like where everybody is positive is government approach to Myanmar nationals in Australia is, is very good. Not very good as in, it's good. And they have given people options. And then those people who are already being in or who have already been granted with protection visa, they are also contributing a lot to the government as well. Like I've got a few friends who are currently in who have who have made an application to a refugee panel, refugee panel, part of those non government organizations so that they can contribute back to Australia and community. A, of course, this is very different from people to people. But oh, I haven't seen because I have to do all the Burmese visa inquiry, most of them actually come to me. So I actually know a lot of people and they're coming their contribution to the Australian community. And they are very hardworking, they're very diligent, you know, like, they are not just staying in Australia, you know, or wanting to get a Centrelink payment or anything, they are actually actively looking for work and trying to trying to stay valid, and trying to be useful. So So and on that as well. That's where things get a little bit complicated. So people in Australia, people who arrive to Australia, from Myanmar, or from another country, on a visitor visa or student visa. They're this type of group as well, of course, but this is the right as well. And, and they have every right to do this. I'm not condemning or anything they it is. It's a right and I don't have anything negative to say about this, there are certain type of people who just who arrived to Australia, and maybe in a month or two months time, they will also be a seeking asylum protection. In Australia. Of course, things are really bad over the over there. So people will seek protection. What What effect does it make is it affects those people who will apply to enter who applied temporary visa, like new application, it affects a lot, because Australian government has all the records that says that, you know, because most of the permits nationals in Australia turn into like 10 the application tend to visa into a production they are trying to seek asylum. So we are trying to limit the people that are coming to coming to Australia, you know, like new obligations. So that's where the dilemma is. But all I want to say to the permit to the Australian community and government is yeah, we're not just looking at the statistics at the government protection visa statistics, they have that. And then for me the amount of people that apply for protection visa from Myanmar is is one of the top 10 At the moment, but they're always like maybe at nine or eight or 10 You know, it's not like any other countries like Malaysia No, no, I don't have anything negative to say to them as well but Myanmar is always the lowest. Okay, it's the highest is the maybe 10 highest or nine highest eighth highest but is not as many as other other other National Ocean other national Are these people always contributing as well? You know. So I can see the dilemma from the case of his point of view as well. If they give a permit to for for people to travel here, they will just straight away apply for asylum in here. But at the same time, you cannot just assume this to everybody who wants to come to Australia. So, there's a positive but because of the post this positivity, there's also a bit of reaction to it to the topics that we just cover. So yes, that's, that's, that's where the things are.

Brad 1:25:39

Okay, so Okay, so it's not all doom and gloom, which, which is a nice thing. But I think on the whole, it is clear that the situation is bad, and that people who desperately need assistance are not getting it. pointed to Afghanistan, you pointed to Ukraine and fight and presumably, there will be a government response to to the ISRAEL PALESTINE conflict as well, but we don't know what direction it's going to go. But the Ukrainians Hong Kong, Afghanistan, you're saying that they're getting much easier access to to protections from from Australia than Myanmar is. But the situation is, is severe, I think we can point to a couple of surface differences. We can point to Ukraine being an actual invasion by a foreign country, but Afghanistan is an internal conflict. Hong Kong, for better or for worse was an internal conflict. Why do you think there is this disparity in response when it comes to these cases vs. Myanmar?

Ko Ko Aung 1:26:53

I think this is I can give you my opinion. But the thing is, maybe outside of my expertise as well, but the thing is, in my understanding is I think Australia does have a lot of this is what I think please correct me if I'm wrong as well, because I'm not very they're not very cover in sanctions, and everything is what they had some sanctions that government has imposed to Nima as well, but not that money. And even in our friends cycle, and even even an offense cycle mutual friends, yeah, friends cycle. I have seen some people from I don't want to put names or anything, but I have seen some some from crony families or some military junta, John Hunter, high level toward the sons and daughters studying in Australia as well without having any difficulties. So you can see that already where the government, like government feels you add anything to that, even though I think there was like a lot of social punishment on those topics. When that could happen, but nothing has happened. And then also, this is just what I heard, is they actually made a lot of some investment from the Myanmar on the government to the Australian Government as well, I don't know, this is just pure rumor or anything. But this is what also where I heard. And then maybe, there's also one other thing is our country situation, it happened from time to time, the coop and everything and, and so, I'm not sure whether Australian Government thing, this is just one of those episodes from in our country and, and not being the case not being given 100%. Or we cannot we cannot just be be talking negatively about Australian Government as well. It's also about our community as well. That's why I want those people who are very active in our community in Australia. I want I would like them to just know, just do more media coverage, you know, do not just been holding out events and activities, fundraising events, or anything expensive, special events just internally for the Burmese community. But just make sure that when these events are happening, you actually invite academics from the law school, like Kaldor center, who is very active in refugee law, you know, has a huge interest in and professionals who are have a lot, a lot, a lot of interest in EMR conflicts media to come and invite them so that they can actually attend to those meetings and events and Then they can, is organic, right? So they can also be immediate honor to make sure that Australian community become more aware, aware of this because NEMA situation is just nobody's reading it because nothing is there, whenever we do something is always private, probably as an within our community only, it was not being reached out to any specific industries or authorities, you know that. This, that's how I feel. So is there's always two ways, of course, you know, like, there are a lot of like CRP H Gu energy, advocating for Australian government to do something about it. In terms of Department of Foreign defense, or this type of government authority, that is good. But dealing with government is, of course, it's not like, one or two days, you will see a significant improvement or anything. But it's also like an extra like media outlet, because government is shaped by the people. And we have to target the people maybe change the different approach. So the, when the public become aware of it, then government has to do something about it, right. So that's where I would like things to change, for me is about engagement and awareness. That's where I see is a little bit of lacking.

Brad 1:31:36

And so you talk about these groups, the CRP age groups and various Myanmar groups that exist here. And I think quite rightly, the question is, do number one, do they have, in your opinion, the real chance to influence Australian government policies and decisions? And number two, and this is related to that? Do you think the Australian Government is suffering from simply, you know, apathy? Or is it that the Australian Government is not? Or at least the the Border Force who handles immigration is not aware of how bad the situation is in India? Is it the lack of knowledge perhaps?

Ko Ko Aung 1:32:23

I don't think it is lack of knowledge. Let's say it is a pure lack of knowledge, then they won't be even giving us a priority for protection visa is asking individuals here to Hey, we are supporting for you like you can apply for this, we are going to streamline it, if they do not have any knowledge or empathy or sympathy, they won't be doing it. What I feel also is, is Australia, politics is also driven by other countries like US and UK. may be wrong. But if the big players are not doing anything, Australia also may not be doing anything as well. And in terms of like, for example, I have seen, let's say last on the weekend, in Kouji, on Saturday in Kouji, and also on Sunday in town hall. Security when you these areas, there are a lot of protest protesters from Palestine support group about devising it out, the media's are everywhere the media is just everywhere with which was the case when we won the coop happened. When the coop had been back in 2021, February and March, April, there are a lot of protests, the protests, need permits protest, some videos come and take note of it, I said we are not like a front page news in any media outlet at all. So that is where I think improvement can be made. And and then like, there are a lot of Australian Professional that academics who are very, very a interested in their lifelong commitment to Burmese politics. Economy, as I've seen, I've encountered a lot of them. I regularly seek their advice in terms of my immigration work, but they are like, oh, you know, I want to reach out who should I reach out, you know? And then I reach out to the people who are running the show here. But not a lot of conversations develop from there. And then I feel like we are the one who should be reaching out to them, you know, to to get their support as well to see what they can do. Maybe Our message is not getting across to the Department of Home Affairs or defend or any government that we're dealing with, why maybe we can use these people, sorry, use a very strong word, but we can, we can get assistance from these individuals, they're more than willing to give, you know, to stick to them and see generate a channel. And also, of course, everything has to be worked together. It's not like they can just recommend you on the next day. And then the next day, you're connected to the prime minister or something. It's not like that, right. But it's just different way of channels that you have to go. And, and also, going back to media coverage as well, like, Australia will react according to how the media is portraying overseas as well. But in terms of our country's situation, and not not a lot of media presence as well, that's where things have to change. In my in my limited knowledge is to do to have a better, better, more more more things that that government can do. Yes, government, Australian Government, approach to our situation is lacking a bit, but lacking, not a bit lacking. But we also from ourselves, have to try different means. If it is not working, we have to keep trying keep trying, and not just fundraising. And that's it. You know, that's why I want to say,

Brad 1:36:38

okay, that makes sense. So I think I think we've covered quite, quite a few bases here. In quite a few dimensions, none of it. I mean, very little a bit is sort of uplifting, but there are at least some glimmers of hope. And and hopefully there's quite a bit of applicability to be among communities, in other countries as well, I think I think you're quite right. When you say that Australian politics is he's heavily driven by US politics, and is heavily driven by UK politics, and the sort of prevalent winds of the English speaking world. But speaking of Australian politics, but for those who are not based in Australia, we're not aware the the Australian government, that that existed between 1996 and 2007, with a Conservative government that implemented this many, many policies towards refugees, which were quite heavily criticized, and very rightly so. These were continued under the Labour government that that came to power between 2007 and 2013. Although they have had a better reputation, that they did continue these policies, and then the Conservative government came back into power from 2013. And a few years ago, they lost power. Have, have you perceived any measurable difference between the Liberal Party and the Labour Party, as far as dealing with with refugees is,

Ko Ko Aung 1:38:08

oh, a lot of positive things are actually coming out from this current government. For example, this girl refugee pilot program that I mentioned to you about is never on the table with the previous government, there's one positive thing that we have seen. And then this is might be a very non permissive, just not Burmese related, but in immigration landscape in general. A lot of positive changes that happen like in the news last week, the High Court decision about indefinite detention and being scraped off, that's very, very important. And also, the other thing is, and let's say for example, if your visa, let's say if you have serious character issues in Australia, like if you have been imprisoned for one year or so, you your visa can be automatically cancelled by the government. And then to get the visa back is an extremely difficult situation. And now, the government, the minister policy, direction, they say the direction has been changed. And to the sense that if you have a ties, if you have family ties and Australia, they are going to regard this as a primary primary consideration to give you your visa back, instead of deporting you, to wherever you come from. So these are the I understand the government, Australian Government. This kind of current government is doing their best as well. And maybe there's also of course, you know, like I I'm, I'm told the interviewer that I want more things to happen for Myanmar, because I'm from Myanmar because there's a subjective push to it. But in terms of, for example, another person who doesn't have any ties to Myanmar, looking at this very objectively, there are a lot of quite improvement, the improvement here and there, and I cannot stress enough that the Australian government official announcement about prioritizing Burmese on shore protection visas, encouraging people to apply for it. If you're having difficulties returning to your country, because of your political beliefs, and whatever you do, in the country, this is also very a this is to to at least get the kudos to an ug office to mph in Australia, they I saw them they have to go to different meetings with different and a lot of different organization in order to get there, you know, so, and even though they're positive, I think the government also have to deal with CA current global landscape is, is it's interesting, because you know, like our global politics, climate has been a lot of issues. Recently, a lot of a lot of things that government has to address that I just want premise, situation to be a topic to, for the government not to forget, while other urgent, global political crisis are just happening from one thing after another, simultaneously, quite a lot. But I just want the permit topic to be there. So the Australian government don't forget about us.

Brad 1:42:00

I think that's a very sage position. And hopefully the Australian Government will change its attitudes. But as as you've alluded to, it requires awareness raising, it requires engagement with media, it requires lobbying the government, and that can be very difficult and very slow. Yeah, definitely. But, nevertheless, I think I think we've covered a lot of information that hopefully will be very useful to a lot of people listening, even if it's not particularly optimistic. And as we sort of come to the end of the interview, we, as we always do, I would like to just invite you to share some final thoughts with with our listeners that they can consider as they go about their day, or that they can talk to other people about just something to really leave them with. And to and to summarize what we've been talking about here today. Okay.

Ko Ko Aung 1:42:54

Yeah, I understand whatever I have been talking about, most of the things that I've been talking about is, is quite negative, but thing is this, this A somehow the reality of what's what, what the situation, but there's always a light in the tunnel, at the end of the tunnel. Having those issues, having those things that we need to address issues that we that's very important, because without that, we cannot do the good things, right. So, so Burmese community and Australia as a whole need to work together come together, old people, young people, everybody has to come together, to, to, to do something, to continue to do something. I'm not saying like, out of nowhere, you have to do something I know everybody in their own profession and own interest and on skills have been doing on their own, but it will be very good if we can all unite and do more. And during these difficult times as well. Because we haven't Buddhists, we have a Buddhist country, the teaching of the Dharma, we cannot be we cannot forget about that. Even though I don't talk about it at all. But I'm also just recently I've been having a lot of personal problems here and there. So meditation and our Buddhist teaching has been helping me a lot going through this not really that level, very committed level meditating meditator but yeah, I think I think going to meditation centers about trying to practice at home at least two times a week, three to three times a week. And I just We'd like everybody who is listening to do not know, forget about our party's values as well, during these tough times, I think, Buddhist practice following these Buddhist practice, not so consistently, but having this being mindful, and it will help a lot as well in terms of getting through these tough times. But, yeah, in order to for the, like, for example, like where we are, right now, what we are doing here is we are asking the Australian government to do something for us, in order to do something, in order to pitch them. In order to ask anybody to do something for us, we also have to do something, we also have to show them that what we can offer to them. And for that we have to work together to to, to reach the end goal, but I think we will get there somehow. But in order to do that, we have to be realistic about it. We'll stay positive, positive manifestation, even though the times are difficult, but let's do it again. That's, that's where I would like to end with like with the community here in Australia, in Sydney for especially a to do more media presence. And actively engaging the government rather than just staying on ourselves privately, but we are in Australia, we want to reach out to the Australian community and Austrian government, we have to put a lot of emphasis on that and also try to engage with people who have a lot of knowledge and experience from alternative Austrian community who have an interest in Myanmar welcoming them to our community so that they can also help in this in this fight against the military and

Host 1:47:07

we want to take a moment to introduce you to our nonprofit better Burma's online shop, which features handicrafts sourced from artists and communities scattered throughout Myanmar. Far from being mass produced knockoffs. The pieces we offer are unique and handmade, reflecting the wide diversity of different peoples found throughout the country. When Myanmar experienced its transition period moving from democracy in the late 2010s, after decades of harsh military dictatorship, many Burmese crafts people hope their beautiful work could finally be appreciated beyond the country. When me and my experience that's transition period moving towards democracy in late 2010s. After decades of harsh military dictatorship, many Burmese crafts people hope their beautiful work could finally be appreciated beyond the country's borders. But sadly, this was not to be so. Following the military coup, many skilled artists in suddenly found all possibility of continuing their livelihood closed off and began struggling just to feed their families. With this in mind, we prioritize working with artisans from disadvantaged and vulnerable backgrounds, because we know just how hard it can be to survive at the margins of society and Myanmar. This includes such people as those with disabilities, mothers who have contracted HIV AIDS, civil servants on CDM ethnic and religious minorities and more. To view these wonderful pieces please visit alokacrafts.com That's aloka crafts A L O K A C R A F TS one word, alokacrafts.com. Otherwise, please consider a donation to our usual channels. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by a nonprofit mission that or Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause and both websites accept credit card. You can also give the PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org. That's better burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar. Available at alokacrafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's aloka crafts spelled A L O K A C R A F T S one word alokacrafts.com. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.