Transcript: Episode #212: Sean Turnell

Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.

---

0:09

Now Myanmar's deposed leader Aung San su chi and her Australian economic advisors, Shawn Terrell have been charged with violating the country's Official Secrets Act. The charge has come almost eight weeks after the military seized power in a coup, and as the jointer continues a violent crackdown on opponents to the new regime.

0:27

But Sydney Economist has been sentenced to three years jail in Myanmar following a secret trial by a military court. In

0:35

a rare Olive Branch Myanmar junta has announced it will release almost 6000 prisoners. These include a British former British ambassador and a Japanese journalist, was an Australian economic adviser who worked with Aung San su chi has been set free. Will Australian

0:52

Professor Sean turnout has touched down in Melbourne optimally two years behind bars in the Canberra prison.

Host 1:05

Hi there and thanks for listening. If you're enjoying our podcast and have a recommendation about someone you think that we should have on to share their voice and journey with the world. By all means, let us know it could be an aid worker, monastic author, journalist, Doctor resistance leader, really anyone with some Thai or another to the ongoing situation in Myanmar to offer up a name go to our website insight myanmar.org And let us know but for now just sit back and take a listen to today's podcast.

Host 2:42

We're back with another interview here with Sean Brunel. We talked to him on a previous episode, the focus was more on his economic background and looking at the Myanmar economy in history as well as the current conditions. This interview is going to be more focused on his personal story. And also talking about some of the details that he shares in his new book an unlikely prisoner how an eternal optimist found hope in Myanmar's notorious most notorious jail. So Sean, thanks so much for taking time to come back and talk with us and share your story beyond the economics

Sean Turnell 3:18

that I think mice is an absolute pleasure to be on the Insight Myanmar.

Host 3:22

Thank you. So I want to start as well as this is more of an interview of your personal story and trajectory. You note in the book how you've had a passion for the Myanmar economy and for Myanmar itself for 30 years, three decades. So tell us how that started. Oh,

Sean Turnell 3:39

well, totally accidentally, right, which is very often the way I guess. So I was living in a share household while I was doing my PhD, you know, three decades ago. And one of the people who was in the house is wonderful, young woman called Tim Zola, when her family had come out to Australia about a decade earlier. And Tinder was full of stories about Burma, Burma, Myanmar, and was connected to the democracy movement and all that. So gradually through 10s Were actually got to interact with the democracy movement. And of course, by then I was an economist, I was working in Australia's central bank. So I started to help out on some economic stuff. And then just gradually, little by little, I just got pulled deeper and deeper into the Myanmar universe.

Host 4:24

And yeah, that can certainly happen. But those of us who become involved in the country and hooked on any matter of things and in the culture, you then you, you became an author and you wrote fiery dragons. Can you tell us a bit about the background of that book and the research that led to it?

Sean Turnell 4:43

Yeah, absolutely. So I started working on contemporary things. And again, sort of trying to help the democracy movement on economic matters and critiquing just the terrible things that the military was doing and had done to the economy. And but it drew me in further as it does was particularly in to me in Mars history, because so many of the economic problems had very deep historical roots going back into the colonial era. And then back even before that, so far dragons really reflected that it's, you know, simultaneously a critique of the economy as it existed in the early 2000s. But it required me to go deep into into Burmese history, which, and that's really where I fell in love with the place. Because it was an extraordinary story. I mean, it sounds, you know, extremely unlikely that history of, you know, monetary and banking systems in Burma could be exciting, and all that, but it was, you know, a credible story, which summarizes so much else about the country. So, it took nearly 10 years to write that book. But it was a real labor of love, took me all over the world to archives just about all over the place. And then finally, of course, to me admire itself. So yeah, in many ways, I think fiery dragons was my deep emotion into the country. But, but but it was sort of fulfillment of something I've long believed, which is that economics to be done properly, needs to be rooted in national institutions, or an understanding of those institutions, which in turn, requires knowledge of history and culture, and you know, all the aspects that actually make for a modern economy. I've actually been an economist who has long been critical of the narrowness of my own discipline, as economics has gotten narrower and narrower, and more and more mathematical, to me sort of lost the plot. So in many ways, you know, foreign dragons was a reflection of that, you know, to, to really understand the economy, you've got to understand so much else.

Host 6:41

Right, and you say that in the process of researching this book, which took a full decade, through the process of that research, you developed a love a deep connection and interest in the country, people History Society, what was it that grabbed you from that research and had that real human pull from the initial approach of economics and then finding something much deeper, perhaps unexpected? What was that?

Sean Turnell 7:06

I think the unexpected right was the incredible generosity of Burmese people initially amongst the diaspora, but then when I finally got to go to the country, in the country itself, the the enthusiasm, to some extent, some negative stuff as well, in an identification of how much the country's political system had fallen short into giving the people what, what they needed and what they deserved. So yeah, so part of the Passion rate was, in some ways, as I say, sort of almost a negative motivation. It came from a sense of frustration, a sense of anger that these wonderful people who I was interacting with, were just not given the opportunities that someone like me from Australia could enjoy. And yet, you know, these people were just, as I say, incredibly generous, incredibly smart and savvy, and I just think should have been better for them. So, yeah, so it was a sort of real mix of emotions. I think.

Host 8:03

That's interesting. I think a lot of people that come to spend extended time in Myanmar walk away with that, that extraordinary feeling of just untapped potential of hunger for opportunity of a moment to Excel that I think when you're when, when you're not touching the ground, so to speak, it's, um, there could be a bias towards developed and undeveloped countries. But for those that have spent time there, there's there's just this hunger and thirst and I'll never forget what one podcast guests said to me early on after the coup, a Burmese and young Burmese who had been at become an entreprenuer, during the transition period. And he just described that his metaphor was that the transition was our moment in the sun, we had been denied the sun for so long, and we knew it was out there. And we just had these few years where we finally got to have the sun and show what we could do with it. And we just wouldn't let that be taken away from us. And it was just so tragic, yet also an accurate metaphor for thinking about this, this long denial of this opportunity and untapped potential. And just this, as he described it, I'll never forget this moment in the sun, where they finally got to have some sense of normality and climbing back up again, that was tragically taken away. Of course, it's

Sean Turnell 9:12

a really powerful metaphor, Wait, isn't it and really does capture that moment, which turned out to be all too brief.

Host 9:21

And so I understand that based on your book that Aung San su chi had read the book and become interested, and that's what led to your introduction with her. So describe how you came into her orbit and how she was interested in your your economic background.

Sean Turnell 9:36

Yeah, so again, all sort of pretty accidental in a way. So many of the documents that I was writing critiquing the military's economic policies made their way to her so she had some awareness of who I was. Then I started doing some economic analysis for the BBC Burmese service. And she was able to listen to that during that period, one of those periods when she was under house to race, and then later actually the BBC Burmese service. And again, it seems impossible to imagine, even now as I think about it, but they serialized much of fiery dragons. And so she was able to listen to that, and then fight so many episodes in that, as, you know, fitting her own personal experience, I wouldn't mention names and institutions long, long forgotten. And she remembered them and thought, oh, wow, you know, somebody's actually written about this. Yeah, so So gradually, just sort of, you know, increasing ties, we started a correspondence. And then in that, what we'd hoped, of course, not turned out to be so that final what we thought the final time, she was released from house arrest, I went over and saw her and we established a rapport and so on. But yeah, but initially, it came through that analytical work. And in through the broadcast, they they see Bernie Sanders.

Host 10:56

Right, so you met her through that, and then became an advisor spent a long time by her side and, and developed a relationship with her. So talk a bit about beyond the headlines beyond the things that we that many of us might think we know about this iconic person, describe a bit about what you would describe of her character and personality, as well as the type of relationship and rapport that you had.

Sean Turnell 11:19

So she's pretty tough, I would describe her and I guess the analogy I reach for most, is she reminds me of a sort of English schoolmistress. So she's very proper, exceedingly bright. And not given to sort of mindless small talk. So if you do venture into that, you'll you'll find yourself that you will explore fully whatever idea it is that you bring up and take seriously what you say, and interrogate you as to why you might have this view, or that view, and so on. So in other words, you in a conversation with those who I always used to have to bring my main game, you know, just to be really on top of things. But yeah, very engaging, extraordinarily, intellectually vibrant, and so on. And so to give an example, you know, she's, she's prolific in her understanding of language. I mean, her English is way better than mine. But as an Australian, that might be expected. But obviously, her Burmese is leagues that beyond what I could even dream of. But she speaks fluent, and can read fluent French, and German, and so on as well. And so, for relaxation, what while she was in office, but also it seems that she's been in the prison. She'll read French detective novels and things like that. So yeah, so intellectually, just a truly extraordinary person. But but very tough, you know, and this is what I guess, even before her own proclamations To this end, I always knew that she was a politician, I always knew that she was pragmatic. And that, you know, she was someone who could roll with it with the tough time. So, to that extent, I think, you know, and this became, I guess, widespread soon after that, you know, she she wasn't the sort of person that that the mythology, particularly in the West, held it to beat she was a much tougher person. But, but for those reasons, too, I think more effective as a leader, as well.

Host 13:25

One thing I've always wondered about is just the amount of time she spent in house arrest in isolation, having some access to the outside world, but limited and certainly not in interactive social ways. And for anyone, I think, to go through that number of years, that much time passing, and the world and your country, society, technology, your family, even your family, when you come out, it is a different world than when you left left, when you left, you're older, and there's an adjustment to be made to that changed world. You met her soon after she came out of that house arrest has you thought that hopefully the last time that she came out, that's not the case. But to what degree did you see her kind of acclimating or adjusting or understanding this new reality? She had been in this kind of Time Warp since she entered that house arrest?

Sean Turnell 14:15

Yeah, I guess for me, like, just to be clear about it. She'd been out a few months before I saw her. So I think some of the basic stuff sort of reacquainting with the sort of modern world if you like and happened before I actually met her in person but so in other words, you know that that famous first meeting that she had with a mobile phone, for instance, that had taken place, you know, before I met her in person, so she got on top, a lot of that sort of stuff. Also, I think because of her reading and so on and listening, etc. She perhaps wasn't as behind on those issues as we might have thought. Having said that, though, I think your points well made. And in fact, part of my readjustment over the last little while, has been quite a steep one. And actually, I've just been out of things for, you know, for nearly two years, but hers was much longer than that. So why, but I think what we're it's had an impact perhaps, in terms of, you know, the way that she deals with things or certain resilience to things, which is mostly positive, but it can, I think, have traits with respect to politics, that that sort of puts you in a different position to most politicians who sort of move and sway with events, if you like, I think her views are much more fixed than average politicians be.

Host 15:36

Right now, I want to talk about a couple of the thing, the big things that happened while you were an advisor before getting to the coup and your 650 days in prison, which is the most of the content of the book that that's coming out, the unlikely prisoner, and one of the things you had to deal with was a banking crisis. And I'm going to quote a passage from the book in which you describe the crisis that you walked into as an advisor, you wrote, quote, most banks were little more than corporate cash boxes for the crony conglomerates within which they sat, and often did little more than facilitate money laundering, tax avoidance and influence peddling. Some were barely disguised Ponzi schemes. The worst were simply fronts for the financing of the narcotics trade, human trafficking and other criminal activity and quote, wow, that's that's a lot to deal with, especially coming from from, from a probably a very different country and sector that doesn't necessarily have those as normal banking procedures. So with that, that basic introduction that you would provide, in your book of characterizing some of the banking crisis that you dealt with, expand on what you saw the banks doing, how the banks had come into existence at that time, and what you were trying to do in your role to help create a better banks and a more stable society?

Sean Turnell 16:56

It's a great question I, I haven't used to say to people at the time that that is before the coup, that two things kept me awake at night. One was the idea that there might be a military coup. The second was that there was going to be a banking crisis. And that's the one I actually feared most, and I thought would come first. So yeah, so that that's the level of of nervousness I told about the situation. So going into the government in 2016, right, it was the obvious thing that really stood out, again, because of my work in fire dragons, but But beyond that, as well. And I used to be a banker, a bank regulator at Australia's central bank. So my whole focus had been banking, I had had a glimpse a glimpse into the balance sheets and some of these banks and understood where they came from. And I was discomforted beyond measure. Because, you know, when the NLD took office in 2016, scarcely a bank, in fact, I suspect, not even one bank was it was solvent in with the application of proper accounting standards. So the idea that there could be a banking crisis seemed not only a reasonable expectation, but it really seemed to be imminent as well. And the thing I'm most worried about was there, that if there had been a banking crisis, that would have destroyed the reform agenda, that civilian government would have done nothing economically for the next three or four years, except trying to fix up the bank. So it was a desperate sort of feeling of, okay, we've got to shore up these banks on how we're going to stop them collapsing, we've got to get them into a safe port, but at the same time, we need to clean them up. So in many ways, there's two conflicting objectives going on here. They were very often criminal entities. If you look into the backgrounds of them, you can almost see bank by bank, what sort of criminal activity they grew out of. Right? Many of them come out of the Shan State, great many come out of, you know, just all the areas that one might imagine that illicit activity takes place in Myanmar. So yeah, so even from the get go, you know, you don't really want to live too many rocks when it comes to the banks. But But yeah, even apart from sort of an unfortunate origin story, they condition as of 2016, was was absolutely dire. So it was a matter of just trying to convince them and try to apply the laws to get the banks into a safer position. And there was huge resistance to that, in ways that that I could never be open about at the time. So in fact, I can only be open about it. Now, you know, when we used to sometimes get threats from the vendors. And in the book, I think from memory, I quite one of them, who said to me, Shawn, is if we go down, you're going down with us. And that was sort of the mode, you know. So because essentially what we were doing was to try to get well try to clean up the ownership of the banks by applying fit and proper person test which is just a fundamental of banking. But of course, a very incomplete and imperfect effort that was, but then also to shore up the banks get them to put more money in. And so that that really was the bottom line. So the resistance from banks often came from from simply that he you know that just that well as the, as you mentioned in that, quote, most of the banks were simply distributing money as a way of peddling influence. And that was sort of into a crony if you like. So, as I said, some of them sort of sat in the middle of these controlled crony conglomerates and acted as a sort of corporate cash box. But also they interacted with each other as one crony led to another and bailed each other out, even when sometimes they were these competitors in other ways. So the whole system was pretty rotten. And it just meant it's incredibly difficult, incredibly slow. And somewhat perilous, which I think, you know, later events demonstrated.

Host 21:00

Yeah, right. I have so many follow up questions on that. I'm going to table my questions, because I know that we're going to get to some of the economic matters later in another interview, but I wanted to just touch on that because it it is part of your story. Your involvement in this and beyond the financial story of this is your own personal involvement. You're being told by by powerful people behind the banks that you're personally going to go down if you're going to have some of these regulations that that is quite terrifying to hear. The other thing that you mentioned in your recent book that also marked your time as an advisor is the Rohingya crisis. And I want to read another passage from your book in which you describe what it was like being involved with this was taking shape you write quote, as it turned out, the worst damage to the reform process of the NLD care era came via the genocidal atrocities being committed by Myanmar's military in the country's Rakhine State and other places. These brutalities, coupled with the government's own missteps, in responding to them, severely undermined international support for the economic reforms that, in my estimation, provided one of the few plausible avenues to the emergence of something better, and unquote. And that is an analysis that definitely fits with what many people have said is how the Rohingya crisis derailed the transition the NLD itself, I think your perspective is something a bit unique, because you were actually advising the government that was, you can't say completely responsible, because the military was of course, leading it, but was definitely not innocent, or, or the the opposition either. So and as this crisis was emerging, I also want to emphasize we don't we didn't know everything, then that we know now. And so you're learning things in real time. But what was it like for you, as you were an economic adviser and this crisis, and what's now a genocide started to emerge? And your understanding of what was happening started to develop as being a part of of that government at the time?

Sean Turnell 23:06

Yeah, it was just a growing horror, I would say, Nothing undermine things more than that, at every level, you know, the actual mechanics of reform. But even at a personal level, you know, as, as I explained earlier, in terms of my origin story, with respect to Myanmar, I'd got into Myanmar work in order to, you know, to try and do the right thing, and morally and in all sorts of ways. So to be caught up in something like this was horrifying, beyond belief, and immensely challenging about what what to do, you know, so I'm over there. And, of course, as we all know, I mean, you know, terrible atrocities against the Rohingya go way back, you know, certainly the 2012. But back further into history, and there's any number of just terrible things done in, in Myanmar. But, but obviously, the Rohingya thing became this, you know, much more significant issue during the term, the NLD government, and it was a horrifying moment, you know, to be there, and just to think, Well, okay, what, what do I do here? What is my responsibility? A few times, I thought, Look, do I go, do I just leave and go back to Australia? And I thought, Well, okay, I've got to try and help this, see if I can, in a couple of ways. I think one of the ways was to get the message across to the government, that this was a really serious issue and that the international community took it very seriously. Because I think, you know, many people who know me and my will, will know that it's a place where sometimes shields itself from from international opinion, and even very good, well minded people will sometimes hide away in a sense from the implications of what might be going on in the rest of the world. So one of the challenges I had was to make sure that the seriousness to which the rest of the world I took the issue was was understood that that was number one, that the second one was was to think about within my area of expertise. And here I had to, you know, be appropriately modest and think, Well, what can I do? And, and, you know, the first understanding I had was that I didn't know enough, you know, I spent a lot of time in me in mind knew I had lots of Myanmar friends and studied as much of the country as I could, but my knowledge was, you know, severely limited in so many ways. So I had to be realistic about what I could do. And for me, it's obviously the economics of it. And I thought, Well, okay, is there any economic way that we can make things better? How can how can man have an input, but at the same time, not overstep their either because, you know, it's a, again, a tradition amongst economists to be somewhat imperialist in their, in their understandings of their own discipline, and, you know, burst into areas in which economics to be honest, is has really no place or a very secondary place. So I had to be modest in in all sorts of dimensions, both to my understanding, and also the limits of what economics could do with your life in that situation. But that those were the tasks that I set myself. So I was absolutely full on. Again, and again, and again, they bring up their anger issue, in personal meetings with door Sue with our ministers, with the other reformers and so on. But the second thing was to come up with ideas about on the economic side. And those IDs, again, were sort of both positive and negative. On the positive side, was there anything that we could do to to make the situation better whether were there structural economic reforms, that that could help the situation and not discriminate, essentially, between different groups? But then on the negative side, as well, was there any way that we could inhibit the military's activities? And that I suppose it is the is the thing that that I've never been able to talk before, except I do briefly in the book was that I did come up with a plan of sanctioning the military from inside understanding the the financial interests of various military officers involved in Rakhine. And so I wrote a memorandum of how we might do that. And, you know, to the risk of fast forwarding too much that that memory memorandum became a key document in the prosecution against me later on, when once they saw the implications of that, so, yeah, but look, it was enormous ly challenging at so many levels, and you know, beyond that, words, are almost not not enough actually to convey both the horror against the Rohingya but but also just the terrible moral dilemma that it had for me and others as well. And, you know, very seriously considered, because it really put in jeopardy everything.

Host 27:56

Thanks for that. And before we move on to your eventual incarceration, as you know, we did take some questions from our audience who knew that we were going to be speaking to you and there's a couple questions on this topic that I think are, are are quite powerful, quite tragic, even in even posing the question that I want to make sure their voice reaches you. The first question that came from an audience member or Burmese audience member is, What is your thought on some of the foreigners attitudes that the Burmese people now deserve all these atrocities being committed to them by the being committed to them by the SEC, because they denied the Rohingya genocide?

Sean Turnell 28:37

All? Well, I obviously might not reject that completely. Again, one of the things that couldn't really be that public at the time was the the extent to which key members of the government but particularly amongst the reform team, were absolutely horrified at everything going on with the Rohingya and you know, all the other atrocities that the military will committed, because, like me, but even more so at much greater risk to themselves, they were in it to create something better. And so, for them to be to be part of something that had become, you know, essentially, so despoiled was was deeply problematic. And so I mentioned my role here in this. Now here, I've got to be really careful, of course, because I don't want to endanger anyone. But just to say that the Reformers more broadly, were deeply involved in trying to make the situation better. So those efforts that I that I mentioned that I was involved in, some of the other reformers were involved in very, very strongly as well. So yeah, so I got to witness that, you know, it was not indifferent at all, that so many of the Burmese people who who I know, were just yet it was at least as horrifying for them as it was for me and they really did a lot of hard yards to try and make the situation better. The other thing to say, I suppose, just on that front to win We expected something like this, the actual form of it was perhaps a little bit unexpected. But the idea that the military would do something, to try and bring the civilian government down and to tarnish the international reputation of norsu, and the NLD, and so on was something we absolutely expected. Which then sort of just adds to the frustration of how well the military pulled it off.

Host 30:25

Right. Yeah, that's, that's tragic. And then the question itself, the premise of the question itself was so tragic, I almost cry just just reading it just to think that anyone is is that any atrocity against anyone is justified? The follow up question then, which is also asked by a Burmese listener, and which also fits in? Well as a segue and where you left off, is, if this was being anticipated? And and there was some thought that they would try to derail the government. This is, this is me speaking to segway. And then the question itself is, why do you think that Aung San su chi stubbornly protected the military by refusing to plead guilty in the ICJ is the question.

Sean Turnell 31:07

So, I mean, this whole issue is something obviously best put to her. And we're not going to be able to ever be able to do that. My feeling of her strategy at the time was to appease the military, and then to do stuff in the background is to try to get them to stop, basically, I think her reading of the situation was that she would be able to influence them, and needed in a sense to Well, firstly, to stop them undertaking a coup, and to try and change them in various ways. Now, obviously, that calculation never turned out to be to be accurate, you know, this way that perhaps she might have felt that she had over the military was not really there. But, but I think that, that, that was her thinking that and I suppose this relates to another thing, which I mentioned earlier. You know, I said that the two things that kept me awake at night was a banking crisis. But the other one was the idea of a military coup. And so I think we always have to factor that in when we're, whenever we're thinking about some of these political tactics he liked around this situation. And that is that there was an ever present feeling every single day, in Apt all from 2016, right through to the end, that the military were only sort of a hair trigger away, was a constant. You know, every few weeks, there would be a scare around Navy door that there had been a gathering of troops in a particular area. And this was a sign of the coup, etc. So I think in that sort of febrile environment, I think a lot of the decisions made by people like Dorsey was yet was made in that context about how do we stop this? How do we somehow really change the military's behavior. Now, in this area, I think there was some some miscalculations very, very clearly. But to me, it was less a moral failure than it was just simply a tactical failure, and perhaps a misreading of just how far the military would be prepared to go. Right.

Host 33:05

So let's get to that military coup. And your book starts out with the moment the coup has taken, place your reaction to it, and then the hours and days that lead to your arrest. So for those of our listeners who haven't read the book, and we definitely encourage those who are listening to eventually seek it out to the unlikely prisoner highly recommended to learn more about your personal story and how that intersects with the story of Myanmar these last couple years. But for those who haven't read it, can you describe again, relay the circumstances around the arrest and also your reaction and when you were in Myanmar at the time when the coup took place?

Sean Turnell 33:41

Yep. So the coup, as we all know, took place on the first of February, it came as a complete shock to me, in terms of its timing, because there's been a lot of talk in the week leading into an I'm sure everyone will, will remember that. There had been a breakdown of talks between the civilian government and the military on the Saturday beforehand, I think, be the 30th of January. So there have been a lot of talk, a lot of talk from the military, partly, I think, inspired by the very similar campaign then being waged by Donald Trump in the United States against those election results. So I can't help but feel that the Burmese military took note of that. So it was very similar sort of agitation, leading up to the first of February. And of course, the first of February was not only the day of the coup, but of course it was on the eve of the sitting of the new parliament of the new government. So it was a very key date. So there was a lot of tension leading up to that. Those talks that I mentioned between the civilian government, the military broke down on that Saturday, and we got very nervous. I'd actually made some calls up to Naypyidaw to get a feel for what was going on, and had received what ultimately turned out to be false assurances. I was told that look, the situation's tense but it's okay. Yes, there was reports of military units moving around the Capitol. But not to worry, these were just getting in place for the celebrations for the opening of the Parliament on the second of February, and yeah, so I thought it was I was quite comforted by that. And then, of course, then the coup took place in the early hours of first February, I was alerted to it from the United States, funnily enough, I got a phone call at about 2am or something like that, just to say that it was on. And yeah, obviously, you know, the world started crashing in from from that moment. And then spent some nervous time and I should add to, I was at that point in quarantine in a hotel in Yangon, because I've made a trip back to Australia, and had come back to me in my butt forced to quarantine for a couple of weeks. So, I was still in my quarantine hotel when, when the coup took place. And, you know, just started to worry about it. My first anxiety, of course, was for all of my friends, and what was happening to sue what was happening to the ministers are all of my friends, and so spent the next day or two just getting reports of who was safe, who'd been arrested, who had gone out of the country, etc. And it was only a little time into it really, that I started to think about my own situation. Because I think at first I had two false comfort safety like one was I thought that the coup might just end by just collapse and sort of hard to get into that headspace now, isn't it but I'm sure you probably have a story that, you know, it wasn't at all clear that this was going to work. So I thought, Okay, this is a period of terrible disruption, but it might all pass. But the second thing I thought was like, it doesn't make any sense for them. To me, you know, because at that point, they tried to convince the rest of the world right, that they that they're not Mad Men, that they're not going to engage in atrocities, etc. This was an internal problem, but manageable and blah, blah, blah. So I thought, well, they're not likely to go after foreigners. So yeah, so real false complacency, I think for the first couple of days, then I started getting word that no, the military are actually coming after me. And looking into things, using me as a basis of getting some of my Burmese colleagues and things like that. So that point, I thought, okay, hold on, I've got to try and get out. But of course, again, this is COVID. So there's no flights coming in and out. The only flights coming in and out of Yangon, pre arranged charter flights, emergency repositioning of workers and diplomats and things like that. And of course, all of those flights would fall beforehand, but they're overfill. Now, of course, there's people are trying to get out because of the coup. So I couldn't get out. So I really just had to had to sit there, tried to help some Burmese friends get it get out of the country that that was part of the job if you like. But other than that, just sort of wait and see what the situation turned out to be. And we get up to the to the Saturday, the sixth of February. And I woke up at about five in the morning, to stare at an email that told me that military intelligence had taken over the hotel that a security camera was focused on my door and the defy called it was time to get out. But of course, but by then it was much too late. So by the time I sort of, you know, very nervously packed my bag, rang the Australian Ambassador to tell her what the situation was, went down into the lobby to check out making careful to pay my bill. And then as I'm doing that, I can just feel the police, the military intelligence guys all coming in behind me and they basically rested me from that moment.

Host 38:44

Hmm, yeah. And you one of the images that stands out in your book, as you describe as you're being hauled away by the military intelligence, the the workers of the hotel almost have like a farewell party and almost an apology and a shame that, that this is happening. It's just a color and a feel for for Myanmar society that you're giving in, in this context of of being arrested, maybe even some of the people that are charged with the rescue. And you feel that as well. And certainly the the hotel where you're staying.

Sean Turnell 39:15

Yeah, no look, a really great point and a great moment and reflect something that you said a little while ago about how tragic it would be for the rest of the world not to have sympathy with the Burmese people because of Rohingya crisis. Because, to me, this was the first illustration in this extreme situation of the incredible courage and compassion of the Burmese people. Yeah, I was experienced that again and again in profound ways over the next 650 days, but the first sign of it was the way that they just lined the driveway. And this is in the full view of military intelligence police. Some of them are crying, some have gone hand over their hearts. Some are good Seeing the three fingers. So it's amazing. It was just extraordinary. And as I say, was the first amongst many demonstrations of just yeah, the incredible courage and compassion of the people of Myanmar. So, yeah, so it's a great thing to highlight. And it was one of the things I really wanted to get into the book. Because, you know, I just had so many episodes of just courageous, compassionate acts that saved my life. And that was the first.

Host 40:28

So you're Yeah, so this is such a tragic moment of being taken away and the response of those that that you described as you're physically leaving, and you have your electronic devices taken from you. For the next two months, you're held in what you call the box. So tell us about that experience. Yeah, so

Sean Turnell 40:47

easily. The worst experience was the first two months. So I was taken away from the hotels briefly processed in a police station, Tommy police station, and then around midnight, taken to the headquarters of Cid, which just sits outside the walls of insane prison. And I remember that awful journey through the empty streets of Yangon. You know, with horror, my hair stands on end just thinking about it now. But we're driving through the MPs streets heading northwest and I thought gosh, okay, northwest, there are two things in the northwest. One is Yangon airport. And maybe they're just going to put me on a plane and deport me somehow. The other thing is insane prison. And I'm just praying as the veins going along. And I've got handcuffs on everything. And just thinking, please, please don't let it be inside prison. It turned out not technically to be the prison but Cid headquarters just outside it. And I was pushed into this thing that as you rightly described, made, I call it box throughout the book, just a tiny little room. No windows except a tiny sort of slight window through which the police outside could view me inside. But very small, like one of those small shipping containers, those 20 foot equivalent units, nothing in it concrete floor, sort of faux wood paneling walls. The only thing in it was a steel chair bolted to the concrete in the center of the room, and attached to that chair with links of chains. Legs of chain and ankle and wrist medicals. That was it by way of furniture and I was put into that room. And I lived in that room then for the next two months. Just a horrific place. It was hard to obviously had to sleep that was hard, willing to live there. I mean, it was just claustrophobic to the Max was exceedingly hot. There was like a fan up on one of the walls. But of course, as everyone knows, with all the power blackouts in in Yangon, the fan would often stop working. Yeah, just absolutely horrifying place I was completely isolated there, no contact with the embassy, no contact with anyone, the only people who came in who I did have contact with whether interrogators and interrogators will come in at any time in the day. But above all, they love to come in in the middle of the night to 3am and things like that. So So even when you know you're sort of huddled on the floor, trying to sleep but always in your mind was that you're going to be woken up at any point by these these guys. Yeah, just a really horrifying experience. And of course, the psychological tension is building all the time. Particularly because at first the interrogators didn't seem to ask anything sensible, it was all just to try and I think just discombobulate me and, you know, make me nervous, reduce my morale and all the rest of it and make the you know, perhaps easier to interrogate later. So yeah, just an awful experience, and just went for two months, and call upon sort of all my resources to just to survive.

Host 43:56

But one of the things that does impact your morale in a positive way, maybe the only thing that you describe in that part, which really stands out to me, another bit of this imagery is the sound of pots and pans being being banged, I think at eight o'clock at night or 6pm, whatever it was during that period. And I just can't imagine that sense of like solidarity and community and support just in hearing that noise and those kinds of circumstances must be brought to you.

Sean Turnell 44:23

Oh, absolutely my totally right. It was with real joy that that I felt that so even as bad as my situation was I got such a lift from hearing that. I will also hear the demonstrators walking past the prison and shouting things out. They've reached and sort of percent made the people in fact, it's a great question, though, because I haven't really thought about this until this moment right now. I remember the looks on the faces of the interrogators and they were suddenly nervous. It was a great, great moment you know that they were so all powerful in this little world inside the box. But coming into this little world in which they had all the power was just yeah, a real moment where where they thought, oh, okay, you know, maybe we're not in charge. And, and that continued on and off throughout the whole period and then even even after things, obviously then the military turned on people as we all know and started shooting and all the rest of it. But even Well, after that, you'll get isolated incidents. I would hear a car vaguely going past and, and people shouting out of the car at the at Cid and so on. And I suppose you know yet another illustration of the bravery of people, you know, to do that just to directly confront these tormentors. So ya know, a real live from be able to hear that.

Host 45:48

Right, so then you have those two months where you're in the box, and then after that, your worst fears do come true, you're moved, not far to insane prison, this is the colonial British belt prison at the time that is now infamous in, in Myanmar for generations. And you, you, you you have you bring a lot of physical imagery to the book and describing what it felt like to walk into this dark cavernous place and in details about the feeling that make it come alive and all of its its ugliness and terror. So as far as you can do now and bring into memory for those of us who have been spared the having to to enter such a place described to us what insane was like as a prisoner.

Sean Turnell 46:38

Yeah, so complete an utter horror. You know, just seeing that that old guard house which of course is deliberately built to intimidate you know, that that's the whole purpose. And I think in the book, I just describe it, as you know, something that's always shouting at us, despair, all of you who enter here, you know, but it's many, very many evil looking, you know, is built in the 19th century, of course, but the big old now door just reminded me so much of a sort of Castle, you would see the Lord of the Rings, films, or medieval dramas, this is just enormous old, pitted wooden door, but so big that it was hardly ever opened, but a small door to allow the passage of of human beings and me being one of them. And of course, I'm all chained up, etc, as I'm having to step over the lip of this small door into the, into the guard house. But yeah, absolutely medieval is the sort of, descriptor I'm, we're going for. And even, you know, so not just the physicality of the guard has sailed from the door, but all the accoutrements, you know, even the handcuffs that they weren't the modern sort of handcuffs that the police forces used around the world, they're the old iron chains. So coming from Australia, you know, we grow up with the story of the convicts and all that, and but the bay and, and the transportation system and all that, it reminded me of that, you know, it's all just heavy iron that is attached to you. And because the place is incredibly rundown, so you just get that just that overwhelming feeling that you're entering a dungeon of the soul, you know, he the two I'd only ever seen in movies. So yeah, just extraordinarily despairing. All sorts of emotions come to you as well, even a sense of shame. You know, I been a person who never even received a parking ticket, I mean, to talk about someone who had a sort of blameless, boring life as an academic, I mean, I was the sort of guy who, you know, sat at the front of the class taking notes and, and, you know, just avoided trouble my entire life. And the idea of being dragged in chains through the doors of this horrifying prison in in Southeast Asia was, you know, just beyond unbelievable. So, yeah, so but but it did mean a certain mental disassociation with with what was happening as well. So in the book I described at simultaneously sort of being aware of the horror around me, but but also as if I was viewing it and, and also actually being very mindful of being able to describe it later. So so I was sort of all ears and eyes and just trying to record the whole thing. But yeah, certainly just horrifying beyond belief that that first entry into the prison.

Host 49:34

So I guess one thing that might balance the horrid conditions that you find yourself in is some of the surprising and heartwarming members of the community that become your your comrades and your supporters and your friends that you go into detail describing some of them individually, so take us through some of the people that stand out that made this horrid stay just A little more manageable. Yeah.

Sean Turnell 50:01

And this is the real upside to the whole story in it. But again, that idea that, you know, just people in Myanmar are so courageous and compassionate. But yeah, so after the sort of horror entry into the prison, I'm taken into Ward four, which was this area of insane prison where I was going to be house. And the first thing that happened, the garden sort of brought me into this compound. And this young man came up to me with a jolly face and a T shirt, inexplicably with a big smile on his face and just said, Shawn, you're okay, now? You're safe. You're with us. And I'll just never forget the moment but having the thought as well, well, yeah, but we're all here. We're all in prison. But that young man who I can't name, because he's, he's safely not in the Johnsons clutches anymore. His name is pi e two, very well known, I think young democracy activist. been in touch with him since, but just wonderful. I mean, he, you know, this worst moment of my life. He's his smiling face is something you know, never be able to forget. But so many others as well. I mean, there was a huge crowd of them, came to help me one particular man to highlight at this point as well, in that it's both a great story, a wonderful story of generosity and compassion, and so on. But but also with a tragic ending, is kin kin Hmong sway. Muslim Burmese guy who lived all his life in Yangon, extraordinary person, dominant personality, someone that the prison guards were frightened off. And I think more than anything, and what wasn't really his physicality or anything, but he had just moral authority. And I think tragically that that that that would be his undoing, because the gods I think, simultaneously disliked him for them, but they also feed him. And so I think he was marked out but but he did so much for me, at a practical level, he was one of the leaders that sort of clearing this cell up, I was put into this dreadful cell that was filled, described, personified, essentially of it, this, this just this awful place. And he sort of led the charge with pi two and some of the others that just sort of fixing it up and making it habitable for me. And then I would join him for meals and things like that. And we would chat about everything. Yeah, marvelous character. But yeah, so both of those stand out, but but actually, all of them were great to me. You know, again, which is why I'm just lost in gratitude. to so many people in Myanmar, and, and mostly they were political prisoners, and most of them were young, that they were the people, they are under Section 505. That's, that's, that's the majority of them. But where I'm going on this is, I don't want to leave out just the normal criminal prisoners. There were some of those. And they were also incredibly generous to me and caring. And, yeah, I can't really say enough. But it also, you know, highlights the extraordinary incongruence at the moment, because again, you know, I'm this, this mild mannered academic guy of, you know, low, low esteem, particularly or anything, and here I am, you know, mixing it with people who were in prison for all sorts of offenses in but including, you know, international narcotics trafficking, they were, there were there were a few murderers, they were foragers, there were all sorts of people, most of them now there's only one exception, actually, the rest of the role incredibly supportive.

Host 53:49

The exception I assume being on wins off, he was the assassin of CO neither advisor to Aung San su chi that you referenced had it in for you. Absolutely.

Sean Turnell 53:59

So I'm glad you gave me up for that. Right. That That's right. So at first I didn't know who he was because I couldn't remember what it looked like. And all I noticed was that there was this prisoner who was in this same ward with all these wonderful people. And he would sort of scowl at me and just sort of project hostility, and I thought, Who is this guy? What did what is he going against me and and Cambridge way who I always knew by his Muslim name of Yacob. So Jakob said to me, no, no, no short, this is all it is. And he then went to describe it. And then of course, it all clicked into place. But yeah, so he was really the one exception. The rest of the prisoners were just fantastic. And, you know, occasionally I would see the mass of younger prisoners as well because insane prison is very big and it's segmented and all that but on occasion, I would be able to be moved around or as I was being moved around the jail, I would see many others as well. And I get all sorts of shouts of support the three fingers salute. I saw many young women prisoners at this time as well. Who were, you know, again strengthened compassion personified. So yeah, I have nothing but sort of profound gratitude to my fellow prisoners in insane and then later in Naypyidaw as well.

Host 55:22

I think this is such an important part of your story to highlight and to balance, the, the, the darker and more tragic parts of what we all know has been going on last couple years. But as I listen to this, also, I'm just I'm struck by this thought that I didn't have until this moment, which is that as as beautiful and wonderful as it is that these, that many of these prisoners are befriending you and supporting you in all these ways. There's also this kind of sad part of that story as well, in the sense that you're, you're you're one of your you're a foreigner, who has been a strong ally and supporter of the democracy, movement, human rights and other things. And there aren't that many of those there aren't that many of those who have really stood up and stood by and showed up. And in your case, Ben also been on the other side of it. And so I think that part of of that tremendous joy and support and admiration for seeing you there is also a kind of sad indictment that there are many people like you not then and not now outside of Myanmar that has made this a cause. And that goes to the media attention and the way it's been understood. Also, back to that tragic question of the way that the Rohingya crisis has been misunderstood by outsiders that there these days of this military coup, they're there, it's harder to find those supporters. You know, we've had people on the podcast that have talked about trying to go to New York and Los Angeles and kind of go to the same progressive crowd of people who support these causes, who supported it in the past, and who could use their platform or their name to be able to stand for the democracy movement and the resistance against the military. And they've reported back that I know that they haven't said the names publicly, so I won't but big names, but they to a person, none of them has really taken that step because of somewhat of partly that it's a cause that people don't think about in general, and partly because of the confusion, the moral confusion that happened after the Rohingya crisis. But it's also kind of highlighting just how few of those outside allies there are, and you being very much one of them, then the the the camaraderie and the affection, the loyalty, the gratitude that is being shown is, is perhaps a symptom, a sad kind of symptom of that as well.

Sean Turnell 57:47

Oh, I think you're absolutely right. I think it's a very good point, actually. And I think it sort of reflects another, which is that, I think, in many ways, it's not so much me as a person, as opposed to do that, that that symbolic role, if you like, and to the extent that I was able to get some pleasure inside NATO was exactly as you've outlined, actually, which was that I could tell just by my presence, and again, not not me, personally, but to the extent that I represented international interest. It was it was something that, you know, gave other people hope. Yeah, again, you know, just to stress, it wasn't not about my personal actions, because, you know, I was just, you know, just trying to cope and so on. And I was always aware of being the weakest link amongst them all. But But, but that symbolism, I think, was important in it. So to the extent that I derive any pleasure out of it, I think it was exactly that, that that my imprisonment and the fact that the regime cared to go after the sort of center, in some ways, a positive signal to my Burmese colleagues that, you know, that the international community was, yet through the persecution of me, if you like, still mattered to the jointer, you know, but, but your other point, I think, is equally you know, credibly well made, that there are many people who I think shied away from supporting the people, in my sense, the coup, because of, I think, a lack of understanding of that have gone on before, but also just, I don't know, I mean, one of the great tragedies, of course, is the world is in a bad way in so many areas. Now, unfortunately, Myanmar, that suffering is just slipped way down the list of international attention. So it's, again, this sort of adds to the tragedy of it all.

Host 59:33

Yeah, absolutely. It reminds me of something another podcast guest said, some time back, a Burmese activist in Los Angeles, who organizes different protests and rallies. And she made the observation you know, when when we just get one white person to show up and to be involved. We're so happy because then it becomes less of like an issue that the expat in the exile community is carrying and something and just showing that there's that International Bridge and connection and It just it makes me so sad hearing that, that the struggle to want to move beyond one's own community to make this a human issue which it is in which it should be, and which so much of our platform is also directed at wanting to engage and inform certainly within the community and those that have already that are already allies, but also those beyond to show them why they should care why this, why so many parts of this conflict in the story are something that we should take at a human level and not a, an issue affecting one particular community or ethnicity or nationality? Yeah,

Sean Turnell 1:00:35

look, I think, again, that's a really important point, I, sometimes I get it, well, not sometimes all the time, I get embarrassed at the attention given to me and the praise given to me, because, frankly, I know it's not warranted. But on the other hand, I'll take it, I'll do the publicity, I'll do all this stuff, simply because it does make a difference in the way that you mentioned, as, unfortunately, you know, because, you know, it's unfortunate that, that the suffering of a foreign in a sense is sometimes needed to break through, you know, and so, there's been a lot of coverage, obviously, of the book and local newspapers here in Australia and elsewhere. But, you know, my suffering compared to the suffering of so many Burmese people is negligible, you know, and, and in so many ways, you know, as much as I did suffer, and how long it went and all that, I was still in a really privileged position, I always knew that one day I would get out. But that wasn't true of the Burmese people who were showing me their compassion, who had great themselves and supporting me and all that. Now, they weren't that they had nothing like that they had no country that was advocating on their behalf. They had no country or family or home to go to in Sydney, Australia, this paradise that I live in, they had none of that. And then they showed the compassion and courage that they did, in helping me you know, so it's just amazing. So, yeah, as uncomfortable as sometimes get at some of the attention of being a foreigner in this situation, I've sort of, you know, if you like, come to accept it in part of a greater good, but, but it is a uncomfortable reminder, or remind myself of it, you know, almost every minute that, you know, well, my situation was just so much better than than so many people.

Host 1:02:22

And that segues to my next question. There's a line in your book where you say, quote, how to survive all of this, how to stay sane, how to not succumb to despair and quote, and this is pointing that how do you find hope or optimism in such dismal circumstances? This is the essentially the human question that we see repeated in so much literature and people who pass through such hardships and atrocities. And indeed, the subtitle of your book is an is that you you self, identify yourself as an eternal optimist. And so what was the secret to being able to call on that inner optimism in one of Southeast Asia's worst prisons, and to stay sane and not succumb to despair over the course of 650 days.

Sean Turnell 1:03:11

So two answers to that might one semi frivolous one theory is the semi frivolous and only semi is that I am an optimist, but it was often said to me, or once said to me powerfully by a friend of mine, Shawn, you're an optimist, because you're just not paying attention. Which may or may not be true, I also have an incredibly powerful fantasy life, I can, like I'm a voracious reader in books are absolutely central to my story of survival. So not only reading books, but thinking about books and creating an imaginary world is something that I was really able to tap into. So so so that's the sort of micro semi almost trivial level of getting through but but still powerful because of that, you know, but the second one was a longer view. So the my reading, always history. So you know, pulling back a bit about my own situation, I knew that I was just part of something much bigger, something important, something that in the long arc of history would be seen as a great movement. And so I was always conscious of that, that I was a doing the right thing. And then history would be kind to me that and kind of all of us in the whole story of Myanmar on the sort of democracy side so. So just being able to, I think locate my personal micro suffering within a much greater story enabled me just to get through I thought, Well, okay, this, this will pass, I'll have an opportunity to tell the story and I used to tell my all my Burmese friends in the prison, I said, Look, I'm gonna write this story. It's gonna be the first thing I do when I get out. And in fact, the the major question I had to them was, you know, No, I use your name. What what do you think about this? Would you like me to to protect you? Or what? What do you want on that front? Yeah, so I was always very conscious if you like that, right. And so again, in a way, but this time intellectually disassociate myself from my individual suffering and see it as a broader story and just think, Well, okay, this will pass. And, yeah, it's part of a bigger story, a bigger, a bigger struggle. And there are things to do was important not to collapse, it was important to keep going, it was important to stay sane for my, for the calls, but also for my family and someone back here in Australia. Yeah, so I thought, well, you know, I, I don't have any choice about what they're doing to me, but I do have a choice of how I react to it. And so yeah, I've just got to get through it just be very pragmatic, and sort of came down to that it was not, you know, courage or anything like that. It came down to a pragmatic decision, how do I protect myself, I do that by staying sane, by trying to busy myself intellectually as much as I can, by talking to my colleagues, supporting them being generous in the sense that receiving may help because, of course, it's very easy to, to push people back when they're trying to help you. And one of the things I realized was, was to accept that help. And that was that that will help them as well as helped me. So yeah, so number of things all together. But I would say that there's that twins sort of thing, sort of micro story of reading, and just escaping into imaginary worlds, and so on, but then a bigger picture view that this was something much bigger than me, and I just had to place it in that context. And doing that was was really helpful.

Host 1:06:44

Yeah, that's really powerful. And speaking to the importance of keeping morale, I mean, just the sense that you're on the right side of history, and the motivation, the encouragement that can give you to overcome gargantuan obstacles and knowing that, that this is all part of a process, a long process of seeing through a better world, that and the confidence and being on that side, that's a really profound thing to speak to, you referenced the books and I also want to bring that up, because you you do spend a lot of your of your book talking about the hunger you have for books, the the difficulty in accessing them the joy in having them the fear and having them removed, and, and the insatiable appetite to want them. And so I think for people who haven't been in that kind of isolation, much less the physical hardships and the extent of time that you spent there, it might be harder, and for those of us who are living in the modern world, and just have endless distractions at every single moment, where we have, you know, 500,000 things we can do at any time, and from streaming to, to, to games, to music, to books and everything, I think that they there might not be such a clear understanding of where this hunger for books came and this fear of not having them so just describe the role that books played in your life, I guess leading to your imprisonment, but then in the outsized importance, the books then had while you were incarcerated.

Sean Turnell 1:08:10

So yeah, books always central to my life, you know, going way back to it as a kid, I became just completely immersed in books, the classic sort of nerdy book route, bookworm was my life as a teenager. So yeah, which again, goes to the this idea that my whole story was just so unlikely. But yeah, voracious reader. But also, you know, speaking against myself, I'm totally caught up in iPads and iPhones and, and, you know, streaming and all the rest of it. So, to be suddenly denied all of that. So from that moment of the rest and placement in the box, I had nothing, zero not a single thing to read, except actually, there were some old newspapers that I carried with me, but But essentially, you know, nothing and, and to suddenly face that concrete floor and sell even the walls and the floor had no had nothing to interest you, you know. And so to be completely, to have any sort of stimulation completely removed was absolutely horrifying. And it was funny, too, because it was something that I've imagined in my life before about what would it be like if I didn't have anything to read? And I remember, you know, various times in my life thinking, Well, that'll never really happen, so I don't really have to worry about it. But you know, here I was, and I was exactly in that situation. So yeah, the first few months it was led nothing at all. And then finally books started to come to me, but as you will identify there was always uncertain, always fragile. The idea that I'd have books with me so so I got immense pleasure and support from having the books but they were also a key vulnerability as well, because of course, if they could be removed, then, you know, I'd be in this awful place. But anyway, I just had to live with that. The book started to arrive. And I then just read and read and read, partly to, I think, a little bit of a misguided thing about the property we all have right about wasting time. And I remember thinking, you know, this this awful situation? I'm not getting ahead. I'm not. I'm not, you know, I'm not developing my mind. I don't know anymore, etc. So, so I think it was partly that, you know, motivations, which were not not so admirable at all. But yeah, but the book started to arrive. And, yeah, I read the voraciously the books were selected by my wife, and my family and friends to be the most supportive books imaginable. So sometimes I will complete escapism. So very early on, I got Lord of the Rings, for instance, which was just wonderful and taking one's mind from everything, but also lots and lots of stories of people in extraordinary situations where they had to survive. So I was given a little bit of a boost all the time, whatever book I came to, I would get this, this real boost from from reading it and the experiences of other people. And again, I guess contextualizing my experience, you know, I mentioned that I could pull back and see the historical arc with which I was a place. And in a sense, the books are constantly reminding me of that, you know, that there are other people in much worse situations than me, they got through it, they told their story, they made it count. And so I think that coming to me all the time, in my reading, just helped, I think, an understanding that I had innately but but it's equally equally easily lost in the sense amongst all the, you know, day to day suffering, you know, all the pathetic things that take place, the filth, the degradation, and all that your mind can very easily be knocked off course. And so I think the books by being a constant supply of inspiration, were just so beyond helpful. I think I've got in the book, something along the lines that, you know, books were always a part of my life, but now they saved my wife. And I don't think that that's an exaggeration.

Host 1:12:10

And in some cases, they were relevant. You have a couple of the books you referenced, the uncaged sky was about an Australian prisoner in Iran, probably and not too dissimilar experiences of you. And sometimes they allowed you to speak in code. You talk about reading Robert Hughes book, The fatal shore about Australia's penile penal colonies, and then referencing certain sites to the ambassador during a zoom call that's basically speaking in code that is informing her about the conditions that you're in.

Sean Turnell 1:12:41

Absolutely, yeah, yeah, the books enabled me to reference things in the book back to harm my wife or or to the ambassador, because they obviously knew what I was reading. And I was able to then to convey a message and the example you gave is a great one, you know, because I wanted to convey to the ambassador because I was a bit worried that they thought that they might have thought I was in a nice house somewhere, and I was just isolated, but other than that, you know, having a good time. So I said to her that, you know, my my conditions were more Botany Bay, then St. Alena. So yeah, I wasn't Napoleon's or whooping it up on st Alena and having dinner parties or anything like that. But it really was bought eBay was old iron chains, and all the rest of it. But yet many similar examples to that. And you bring up a actually a wonderful example in the uncage sky by Collymore, Gilbert, who had been a political prisoner in Iran. And that book was great. I mean, it was great at a practical level, you know, because it was written only, what, three years ago. So it was highly, highly relevant to my situation and sort of highlighted another funny thing about the books, actually, which is that it was very strange to see what the prison authorities would allow him and what they wouldn't allow it. So for instance, they rejected a memoir of a cruise ship captain, and beans, you know, something like that. But they did allow the uncage sky they did allow George Orwell's 1984, which I think that was probably the most surprising, again, given the history of Orwell in Burma, so yeah, yeah. So it sort of highlighted just yet some very strange aspects to the to the selectivity of books aloud.

Host 1:14:27

And reading that part to just reading your your desire for books as a companion. I've spoken on this podcast to a number of Burmese political prisoners and have gone into some depth in terms of the meditation practice that they've taken up and the shape that that practice takes within the cell walls. That is just a fascinating inner exploration but it also, you know, reading as someone as yourself who isn't coming from a Buddhist or meditative background with that to fall on as as a Burmese prisoner would even those that don't necessarily have a strong background. They have most didn't have enough of a background to know about observing the breath or the abdomen or some comments of the mind or something from some of their background and it reading the how you were getting through your your time behind bars. It, it highlighted, the many Burmese I've talked to that have, have used that time to fall back on an intensive meditation practice, I suppose in your case, if you ever wanted to learn meditation, probably didn't have a teacher, but that probably would have been, would have been a time to, with not much else to do to, to be curious about, about some observation.

Sean Turnell 1:15:39

Absolutely. And this almost became a something an immense personal failing on my part. And as you just said, Buddhism, but and then meditation, both associated with Buddhism and separate was immensely important to just about all of the other prisoners except me. And I would get advice on it. And I would try and just completely hopeless. I think I was way too impatient. Just, you know, I try, and my Burmese colleagues were incredibly patient with me about how to go about things and, and incredibly helpful. I just couldn't do it. And, yeah, as I say, it really was a failing of me. And I really do think as someone sort of conditioned by an ever present iPhone, and all the rest of being able to pull back was just something I found very, very difficult. But yet from my Burmese colleagues, immensely important, I couldn't stress it enough, I would say, and even people who their whole life up until that moment was, was very Western, in a sense, you know, that a lot of them were the key economic reformers, and they pursued PhDs and masters and, and, you know, sort of dealt themselves in bond markets and stock markets and banking regulation and all this sort of stuff. They put that aside, and the principles survival strategy seemed to me and by their own admission, as well, was very much things like meditation and a deeper reflection on life, which, yeah, for me, I always had to externalize it, it's really interesting point you bring up because I think for me, the books, replace that if you like, but I don't think I had that inner grace, frankly, that I think my Burmese colleagues had.

Host 1:17:28

That's, that's beautiful. That's, that's really interesting to hear. I want to get to some of the daily rhythms of prison that you described in the book, you just to throw some themes out there. And you could pick these up as, as as you want to tell the story. Just normal human activities, eating, sleeping, bathing, social interactions, exercise, whatever, whichever direction you want to go and just giving painting the picture and describing for us what shape these things took, and the difficulties of of each of them all less than ideal and surviving the incarceration. Yeah,

Sean Turnell 1:18:04

so perhaps, firstly, I might start with the physical environment, you know, and so I'm living in a concrete cell. And this is the case both in insane and then later in Naypyidaw at a much newer prison, but where the conditions were just much worse, but yet concrete sell damp, and mold all over it, often with pools of water just lying on the floor. Because as we know, we went through to monsoon seasons, hideous places physically, in the case of insane prison, of course, very old and all that and the door being just a door of iron bars. And that's completely open to the elements. So these cells are not they're indoors in terms of the cells themselves, but immediately outside them is just just the outside world. So whether all comes through those doors, but so do creatures, and so I'm forever battling the entire time. Ants in particular, and ants just get everywhere. It was for this was Navy that will because the Navy, the old jail had been built in a sort of clearing of what had been a sort of monsoonal sort of swamp basically out there. And so yeah, the ants would just call all through you all over you through your bedding through, they would eat your way through any food that you'd been able to store so you can be so careful with things like that. And but yeah, apart from the ants, which I'm always distracted now the bat I have with the ants, but in spiders, and then a creature that we never get in Australia, but which is well I don't think we do but we're just horrified me since I was a kid which is a scorpion. On about three occasions, a giant Scorpion being inside myself, which is just horrifying when I saw it. Giant centipedes that were poisonous and then of course rats and things I They're coming in and out all the time. So and then on top of that, of course, just the accumulated filth, the the toilet facilities. So each of these cells had a had a squat toilet at the back, which you're perhaps not surprisingly, you've not been clean, you know, I would say since the day that was built. And yeah, it just isn't physical environment. And then on top of that, of course, the weather was awful. Again, particularly up in maybe it's hot, all the time, sweat is pouring down your face, you've got no fan, you've got nothing like that. So you just got to, you know, get through that. Yeah, it's so physical environments, awful. The food's awful. So two distributions of food in the day, early in the morning. And then again, in the early afternoon, the food is just delivered in buckets. One bucket of badly cooked rice under, down and overdone never in the middle, it seemed to me another bucket of sort of very watery bean soup, which was probably the you know, the most healthy option. And then another bucket of meat of some description. But by the time I got to the prisoners, it'd be completely picked clean of any nutritional value. So there was usually only some bones and GRISTLE sort of left in the in that last bucket. And you'd have to sort of just scoop out of these buckets with a ladle that was there. But you know, everyone's hands are getting in the bucket. So, you know, all sorts of diseases are easily spread. And easily this

Host 1:21:31

was during the pandemic. This was

Sean Turnell 1:21:33

during the pandemic, and I got COVID, five times. Even though I'd been vaccinated. My first vaccination was I think, I was told this by the jail authorities that I was the first prisoner vaccinated against COVID. But it was the Chinese vaccine that sinopharm I think first and then sign it back later, but they weren't very good, because I got four injections overall. And I got COVID, five times. So it was just something on that score. But yeah, so yeah, terrible, you know, just hygienic conditions, which just made the diseases and so on. Yeah, very easily spread food awful. You can augment it, though, with deliveries from outside. So I mentioned, you know, getting books, etc. But the other thing that the embassy was able to get to me was food from outside. And that even included, things that my wife could bake. It's just such a great story. And in the book, a wonderful picture of her putting a fruitcake inside a vacuum seal, sending it down to Canberra, where it then went into the diplomatic tie taken across to garner would ultimately get to me. And again, you know, I think the funny one is one about that was it, she loves it. It's a wonderful quote, of a fruitcake, which has lots of alcohol in it. And I'll never forget, you know, the moment of undoing one of these pouches and just getting that waft of brandy. Just fantastic. So, so you can augment the food, but but just as with the books as well, that that food supply, easily disrupted and the ease and the right to it easily withdrawn. So always vulnerable on that. So and there were numerous occasions when you just wouldn't get anything for a month, a couple of months, things like that. So always vulnerable to it. So which again, creates sort of problems, because you know, you start to depend on it, and you start to look forward to it. And you can get in quite distressed when when it doesn't happen. Other than that, lots of walking outside lots of talking, particularly again, when I was taken up to Navy door and reunited with many of my colleagues as economic reformers, and we would spend much of the day talking about economics, their optimism, I wouldn't want to not talk about that their optimism was extraordinary. We spend most of the time just talking about how we could fix the economy once it was all over. It sort of never escaped, you know. Yeah, just just marvelous. The prison guards, mostly innocuous, some good, and some obviously very sympathetic, some horrible as well, but But I suspect jails are not places to bring out the human character, maybe not sure, amongst prison guards and so on. So you get a lot of awful people but for the most part, I think that they were frightened, but probably tried to do the right thing within those parameters. With some exceptions, as I mentioned of people who were I think attracted to being a prison boarder because there's a distinct tendency, so you know, certainly if you're those water was always a problem. Getting clean, drinkable water, always problematic. Particularly again up in Naypyidaw, because the place is just so dry. Like during the dry season. It's really too Right. So getting drinking water was difficult. And getting water to wash, it was difficult as well. So just outside of the cells were these giant, big, concrete, sort of almost like baths. But just to hold water in which you could scoop out of and just give yourself a scoop shower. But but there were times when, when that dried up, which was awful, again, because of the heat and all the rest of it. So yes, and none of that was particularly pleasant. There are many sort of observations ahead about that. And I think I've been talking in the book about how you know, Burmese people were very modest physically. I remember admiring the skill, and which my colleagues would have a shower while positioning the loan G around such that they were never naked, for instance. It was quite interesting. And certainly a skill with that I can never be proper properly. But, yeah, so physical environment, you know, just just awful food was awful. prison authorities mostly awful. Every few days, you'll get visits from sort of senior officers, just checking how you were and all that. But it was all just a box ticking and Sharad, I even got to visit a couple of times from the Human Rights Commission in Myanmar, who said to me, you know, please feel free to tell us the truth and all that. And he sort of standing about one foot away from me, and then about two foot away from me, all the the lineup of prison authorities. And so yeah, I mean, the scope, to be honest, actually, as a foreigner, I felt that I caught and I was relatively honest, but certainly for my Burmese colleagues, there was no way that they were able to speak the truth without severe retribution being being put upon them. And then I think that the medical situation just awful. Once again, one of my Burmese colleagues are very well known young reformer, broke his leg, and he was just left basically to fend for himself. And in fact, the doctor, who was meant to be administrating said that he couldn't do anything because he ran out of forms to fill. It was one of the most extraordinary moments until another prisoner colleague who was a good doctor, a real doctor, basically shamed him into action. But yeah, but but I've met you know, the medical facilities, if one can even use that expression, for the average Burmese prisoner is essentially zero. And, yeah, so pretty awful Environment Day to day, but but you're, you're buoyed up, I guess, by your colleagues, and then you know, some of those other support mechanisms you can create for yourself.

Host 1:27:45

Yeah, I want to follow up with some of the social interactions and the types of the individual people, former members of the government that were there, before I do, I just want to give one small plug you you had talked about the care packages that you were able to get through diplomatic pouch, being a foreigner and having that kind of special access, it's very hard to get proper medicine and food and such into prison, I do want to give a plug to our nonprofit that is working with a local group that has its own access and networks of how to get medicine and food and family visits coordinated in such with prisoners, particularly in insane and so particularly for those prisoners who do not have that kind of outside access or support or, or or ability that that they're focusing on. So for those listeners that would like to support that with a donation to our nonprofit, better Burma, which details of which can be found anywhere under this episode, or by googling that donations can be earmarked for that, and that is able to, for those prisoners that are in a more difficult situation that are not able to get that access, this group is able to get the proper medicine, food other things into them. It's it's a great initiative. So just want to plug that for those that would like to support those that don't have that support. And then would also like to move on to touching upon the kinds of people that you were with, you know, you there's this kind of sick irony or humor that you know, so much of the the great minds in Myanmar at the time the Burmese that were trying to reform that were democratically elected or that were supporting the democratic government at the time so many of them were arrested to the extent that you had entire members of different ministries that were were there, it was almost that they were all behind bars together. You joke that you called it barbed wire University B Wu. I've heard it described elsewhere. And this is again, the cyclical nature of the way that recent Burmese history is played out that's so tragic that that even reading about you know memoirs. Ah generation or 2007 or whatnot, that the same kind of sentiment is there this the joke that you get your continuing education in prison. Because anyone who's doing anything away from the kind of crony violent oppression that the military is enforcing this doing anything to try to reform that probably sooner or later ends up in prison and that's where you meet you connect with your community and you you you continue to you continue your education so to speak. And I'm also I'm conducting some interviews right now with the the academic Elliot press Freeman, who wrote a recent book about the history of the last several decades of Myanmar resistance movement. And he describes among activists there's even a feeling that it's almost a requirement to at some time in one's career, have kind of logged those hours in prison, which is interesting, because you, you also fit that bill. Now, you're also someone who has not by your own intention, obviously, but you've walked the walk of having to now be a political prisoner, having gone through that experience. That's that's something you know, that's a that's a mark in your story that brings you closer to the Burmese experience, so to speak. But in his in, in Elliot's book, he describes how among the activist community, there's, there's this feeling that that's a that's a mark that everyone kind of needs to get sooner or later, to the extent that even those longtime activist that don't have that mark, they almost feel like they're standing out. Because they haven't, they haven't gone through that gauntlet before. So you went through it, you describe it in the book, you described it just now briefly, but if you can expand on what it was like being behind bars, with some of the greatest minds, and potential reformers that were all working together in a public way before some of them, maybe were in jail before that, but now you're all in jail together, walking in prison yards, talking about different reform mechanisms, that maybe someday you'll have the chance to put back into play. But that must have been somewhat of a surreal experience.

Sean Turnell 1:31:57

Totally surreal, I totally thrilled, just even at a practical level, you know, you'd be there, washing your clothes in a bucket, next to a person who have been a senior minister in the government, it's like all of them around, you know, and the last time I had sort of had a conversate, and many of these were much older people very revered and all that, you know, and I would have had a very respectful conversation with them before about some aspect of reform. And now here I am, you know, getting advice about how to use the bar of soap to clean a dirty shirt. So, of course, you know, the extraordinary incongruity that, but at the same time, I mean, more seriously, I suppose the issue, the intellectual story, and I think you're absolutely right, I think it's almost like graduate school, right? The prisons, in Mima, and just being intellectually vibrant, you know, again, it's part of the way that people survive. And they weren't particularly happy, naked, all lumped together. So it's essentially the entire will fall wing of the NLD government all lumped in together. And yet, we used to have this seminar in the afternoon that we call the barbed wire University. Now here, I should mention that the leading figure of this, the inspiration of this is the marvelous who in time, who I'm sure will be familiar to most people listening to this sort of great patron of the NLD just a marvelous man, I'm really small, right? So I'm five foot one or so who in turn must be one about four foot 10, or something like that. He's 85, I believe now, just a marvelous Old Man and His Spirit, His intellectual spirit. Everything about him he's carried, he had the prison in all of him up there, and maybe even to the extent that guards and the police would regard him with a great deal of reverence, but, but he sort of set the tone for this, which I think goes to your point right there. This is a very long standing tradition in me and that's how things don't and so yet for me, it seemed that who in turn set the set the scene, and we sort of followed along that and we had these as a afternoon seminars, nothing was off limits, we still had everything from religion to well, obviously politics, economics, but but everything, everything was Yeah, nothing off limits. And just have great experiences that the the physical environment for it wasn't particularly conducive, but we may do anyway, we sort of just sit around a concrete irrigation ditch that sat between themselves and just yeah, just use that as an opportunity to talk about that anything at all. But yeah, certainly a marvelous experience. And again, sort of highlighted to me just the caliber of people that have been put away and in the in the orphan contrast, you know, because by that time, so we're sort of well a year into the story by then. Occasionally, we get hold of government newspapers, and to read of the idiocy taking place. So David, apart from the horror, just how unbelievably stupid the the SAIC was, just or is. And in contrast to these mines behind the bars, and yeah, more than one occasion, I actually said that the prison guards about the wrong people were on the wrong side. It certainly come out in those moments.

Host 1:35:27

And this also goes back to what we were talking about beginning of the conversation that the missed opportunities, the potential that's lined there, that's just this this enormous potential between the repacks who fled the country and those behind bars who stayed in suffered, that the just the extraordinarily untapped potential of what this country in society can be and the brutal oppression that keeps it from achieving that possibility.

Sean Turnell 1:35:52

Yeah, and then the other thing is, came to me all the time was just a monstrous injustice of it all. You know, we're with a few of them in particular, who had given up in, you know, easy lives in the way to come back and help and all that. And yeah, and again, you know, the contrast between them and our jailers was just so extreme as to, you know, just add that extra layer of horror to the situation just because yeah, that that terrible waste.

Host 1:36:25

Yeah, certainly another thing I want to hit upon is how interesting it was that being a probably an economist through and through, you had some interesting economic analyses, both of how the prison economy was working, as well as indications of what you thought was happening with the Myanmar economy based on things that you were observing in the prison itself. So can we get your insights and on these perspectives? Yeah,

Sean Turnell 1:36:52

so the prison was a wonderful microcosm to see economics in action. And with respect to the prison economy itself, you know, you'll get to see the supply of food, I've mentioned already, the meat being stripped away from the from the ration, get everyday and sold into the black market and all that. So there was a lot of that going on. To me, one of the most exciting things and because I'm a monetary economist, I've always been fascinated, if the question of what is money, we don't even really think about it, although we've been growing and all that we're starting to, you know, but yeah, the nature and the meaning of money, and funnily enough, prison camps, and prisons are great locations to, to observe the meaning of money. And so I was particularly fascinated to what function there's a means of exchange, what what was used as money, you know, within the join. Now, to some extent, it was actual money, like it was actual cash jet was, was not allowed, because, but, you know, it still functions a little bit. But the basic currency, I was surprised to see what coffee set sachets and, and the most valuable, were local branded, three in ones, high sugar content. So they were sort of the Swiss francs of the system that really high valued currency. And you will use them to measure the value of of other goods and even to use them to exchange you know, somebody might want to buy, you know, a piece of bread from someone else. And that might be two coffee, sachets, and Apple might be three or, you know, whatever it was. And so the coffee sachet became the sort of standard and unit of currency and you can sort of save in it, you can exchange it, or sometimes Yeah, it was just used as a unit of account to measure everything else. So I was really surprised to see that because I'd read many years earlier about the extraordinary thing in World War Two that that cigarettes had been the currency of choice amongst prisoner of war camps and so on. In Myanmar wasn't the cigarettes, although, except at the margin, because the trouble with cigarettes is that a they were being which, of course, didn't totally rule them out. But I think people wanted to smoke them. He never lasted long enough to be currency and instead was the coffee session. But yeah, also though, within the prison, we got some inkling as to what was going on outside. Because, you know, I've mentioned there were a flow of food into the prison and so on. There was also a system run by the guards where they would sell food. So in a gray area, I think, in terms of the prison regulations, but you can see through the pricing there and he, by pricing, I mean actual currency now and object currency. You can see the prices rise dramatically, as the as the LSAC become more and more entrenched in the economy just trended down. You could just see the spiking of all sorts of basic items. So yeah, so we had a fairly clear idea about the shortages outside about inflation. In particular goods just disappearing, you know, good goods that you could get before, which just suddenly weren't available. So yeah, was an interesting place from which to observe the collapsing economy outside.

Host 1:40:14

Right. That's, that's very interesting. I want to move now to the moving along your trajectory of what was happening to you in prison, we've been talking more about the generalities of the experience. But moving back on your timeline, you were arrested for violating the Official Secrets Act. That was the formal reason they gave for your arrest. And the plight that you would go through over the course of the next number of months and years, would be understanding why exactly they were charging you with this and how to refute it. And this was a process that lasted a very long time. So and eventually culminated in a trial, which we'll get to, but break down your understanding of why they were using the Official Secrets Act to charge you with an arrest.

Sean Turnell 1:41:05

So I think that the Official Secrets Act was what they finally charged me with. And I think they use that because it was very convenient. It's an old British colonial law, and it more or less could be used to go precisely against someone like me, someone trying to help the government, someone in possession of all sorts of official documents, for good purposes, in fact, for the purposes for which I was there, but it could be painted, as if I was basically a spy that I have unauthorized access to documents. So it was very useful. In other words, as a law to go after me even more, though, it was also very useful for their broader thing of going after my Burmese colleagues, because not only could they use it to go after me, but they could say that look, you were facilitating Sean's espionage. So if Shawn is a spy, then you are also in breach of national security, etc. So I think it takes multiple boxes. It also, of course, was useful, I think, for the regime, to go into that broad narrative that only they could be trusted with the sovereignty of the country, you know, when the democratic government would sell them out, and the foreigners were in control, pulling all the strings and all that. So yeah, I think the Official Secrets Act was a very useful law, by the regime against me, even though one of the more bizarre things that came up in the trial was that as a foreigner, and as not a formal employee of the Burmese state, the law didn't even apply to me. In any summation, right. At the end, the judge even acknowledge that, and then came up with a very bizarre comment, which was that even though the law did not apply to Shawn Terrell, nonetheless, one had to take into account the spirit of the law, which you know, to me is just so bizarre, given the nature of his regime, that they would even talk about the spirit of the law, talking about the law a little and the spirit of the law. But yeah, so I think the Official Secrets Act was just very useful for them.

Host 1:43:08

And as you describe the process, you go through and having to defend yourself and eventually having this 13 week trial, you describe the whole experience as Kafka esque and that's recalling conjuring up back to Kafka makes a lot of sense, because he, people often use Kafka as to describe these kind of surreal, almost supernatural experiences. But Kafka is writing actually, he focused on the bureaucracy. I mean, he has a, a, a book called The trial, which is all about just the confusions and mysteries of the state bureaucracy and action and, and being caught in that system. So in the sense, Kafka esque might be an especially appropriate word, to describe your situation, but give examples of it. And you gave some examples already, and some more that come to mind of in what ways your experience came to take off something out of Kafka's writing.

Sean Turnell 1:44:04

So I think you're either the first instance, by the way, just that it's normally a cliche, and I thought about whether to use expression, and then I thought know, exactly what. So, so many examples, I think the maddest one was, I was presented with a document that had confidential written all over it. And I was asked, How did I get this? And I said, Well, I actually wrote it. And they replied back to me, well, it doesn't matter. You shouldn't have had it, and you shouldn't have read it. And at that moment, I knew we were well and truly beyond the look of it interesting enough, by the way, that that document was the one we referred to earlier, which was about how retired military officers engaged in the atrocities against the Rohingya. So that that was that particular document so the confidential was on it put on by me, precisely against them. Actually, yeah. Interesting.

Host 1:45:04

Right. You also referenced in the book a couple other examples for, for instance, a document that was shown that had top secret, but it was clear from the image that that document was actually modified to put a top secret on it. A policeman that confirm no documents comprise compromised security. Another officer that was spoken to that accused, I think, accused you of, of having some conversation that revealed something but then revealing that he himself doesn't speak English, and you wouldn't have been speaking in Burmese. So all of these different Kafka has themes that just you have to wrap your head around. Indeed,

Sean Turnell 1:45:43

I mean, it just happened over and over again, I'll never forget that the one that had top secret stamped on it. But as they projected it up on the wall in the court, you can actually see document last modified dot dot, and the date was willing to my prison sentence. I mean, if you're gonna do that, please get but not not putting that up. Yeah, also, you know, I had police officers testifying that I'd made all these confessions do them, never seen them before in my life. And then yes, wonderfully, that police officer who, who likewise had said I'd had a long conversation with him, and, and my lawyer said, Well, you know, do you speak English? And he said, No, I have the conversation with him. Because I had been very careful, by the way just to use English, when it got down to legal issues in the interrogation process, because I thought I don't want to inadvertently make Admissions here by my terrible Burmese.

Host 1:46:42

I also do want to highlight for our listeners that although we're laughing about it here, because there is something tragically funny about it, I also want to highlight that these are the kinds of show trials that are taking place, to those people that we never learned about that are condemning them to horrible situations. And these this kind of fake evidence that's coming up. And as I think it is, there is something that we can have a kind of gallows humor and be light about. But we should also make sure to emphasize that the real hardships of this darkness that's being taken place, and we've had other very serious interviews with people from on the side of lawyers and law, that have emphasized the situation that many Burmese find themselves in that this is a snapshot of, of the circumstances that many of these democracy activists are many youths many women are finding themselves in. And, and to make sure that's understood as well.

Sean Turnell 1:47:34

Absolutely. And the implication is, of course, a huge that the maximum sentence you can get for breaching the Official Secrets Act is 14 years with hard labor. And then of course, it's only a quick step to actual treason, which of course then brings about the death penalty. So and which, as we know, has been brought back. So, ya know, very serious implications from this atom misuse of what you know, passes for law.

Host 1:48:02

And just as you gave a very colorful and descriptive description of the the prisons that you found yourself in, you also do the same with the courts and what these Burmese courts look like. So as far as your memory can bring that back, tell us what these courts physically look like. So

Sean Turnell 1:48:20

the first thing to say is that they're not formal law courts. So they've been or has law courts, but for some reason, they never used them. These were houses, they're sort of quasi ornate houses that were previously used for deputy ministers and, and, you know, senior executives of the civil service. So it was like, a quarter set up in someone's lounge room with sort of portable partitions stuck here and there to sort of make it look like a courthouse with, you know, a sort of, again, a makeshift Coat of Arms sort of stapled up on to one of the walls and yeah, but you know, terrible acoustics and of course, the blackouts going on. So the, the court would end every, every an hour or two, the power would suddenly disappear. Yeah, just just awfully, you know, the sound of chairs scraping against the floor. And yeah, just just places that were not set up at all. But, but all the accoutrements were sort of half the so yeah, bizarre sort of spaces that resembled courts, but weren't really and, and I think, to that sort of function, there's a bit of a metaphor actually that this was this. This whole legal system had some accoutrements of law but but it was really nothing but but a mockery of the law.

Host 1:49:40

And I think one of the things that will stand out in your book to many who read it is your interactions with Aung San su chi. I think that her her condition her attitude or feelings have been such a mystery to so many of us since the day of the coup when there's been so little access to her and you Were actually in her presence and you were able to have some short conversations and see her energy and and be able to have some short conversations. So what can you tell the world about who Aung San su chi was after this, another extended period behind bars and what what you saw of her attitude and her understanding of what was taking place?

Sean Turnell 1:50:21

Well, I think once again, it was also at her best, you know, this is why she shot to fame in the first place, of course, through her extraordinary resilience and courage wealth, under the tension so, so that that stood out more than anything, I would get to see her every week for the full year of the trial. So we had many conversations about all sorts of things, we would hardly ever talk about the trial, to be honest, because it was so nonsensical, it was just a matter of, you know, getting through it. So we were talking about world events, because because I had spoken to my wife, and I was able to have phone calls every couple of weeks with my wife. So I knew roughly what was going on. So I was able to give Dosoo, you know, just information about what was going on in the world that, you know, Boris Johnson's fall, death of Queen Elizabeth, the latest goings on of Donald Trump, blah, blah, blah, all of that. But we were talking about all sorts of things about literature about, about the meaning of things, the importance of staying strong, and all that, which, I guess brings me to the main point was it choosing credibly strong in good humor. Physically, she was suffering a lot. She was always thin. But I remember the shock of seeing it the first time that she'd seemed to lose an extraordinary amount of weight. But yeah, immensely strong, and her biggest concern always to keep our spirits up. And I remember in one particular way, I mentioned a long time ago in this interview, that there's a certain shameful acts aspect, even though you know, you're a political prisoner. You know, it's all nonsense. But in some ways, you can't help but take on those accoutrements of the criminal justice system, you know that you've done something wrong, there were prosecutors and lawyers, and police, and all that. And she was just so good at just basically deciphering all of that and crushing it all. And just saying, Look, Sean, the others don't, don't take on this don't don't feel that you've done anything wrong. This is this is theta. This is nonsense. Yeah, so incredibly strong in all those sorts of ways. But, but funny is, well, you know, because, again, these awful circumstances, but not lost her sense of humor at all. So we get lots of amusement about some of the goings on in the world, for instance, as well, as you know, all the serious things. So, yeah, but but in many ways, you know, I guess the, the abiding image I have of her is really at her best, you know, with, with all the pressures on her. And I should point out, too, that she was treated in many ways, much worse than the rest of us. So, you know, I mentioned the importance of books to me, but she was denied books and things like that for a long time. And only sporadically going to access to things like that. So yeah, but she was, again, I'll put her in that category of Myanmar people who, whose courage and compassion just helped me get through it.

Host 1:53:14

That's, that's, that's amazing to hear. You also write in the book about her courtesy to the people in the court and her her strength in terms of encouraging others such as yourself to, to carry on, also some references to shared joys of Star Wars and Lord of the Rings that you have in common that both of you have enjoyed those mythologies. But one of the things that I wonder about that, I think probably is a burning question, in many listeners mind. Certainly, it's something we've heard about for the past number of years is that for so many decades, the understanding of what of the direction Myanmar was going and what it needed, that she was kind of his ultimate authority and had this outsized influence in Washington, DC, and in so many places of decision making around the world in terms of a ceding to her understanding and her beliefs and what was necessary and much transformation. And I think one of the things that's really characterized this movement in the past couple of years is her absence, which is the first in decades really, since I mean, obviously, she came on the scene and in 88, which was the one can't really say the start of this, but definitely so much of what happened, what's happening now leads back there, she's been even under house arrest. She was there was communicate, there was communication with her and different years and, and her opinion and in terms of being sought out in her direction was something that was so immensely important. And that's not something that's taking place now, by necessity with the movement that's developing. So I think a question that many have had is, how would she feel about it? And that might not be a question you can answer because the conversations you had didn't necessarily have the formation of what was happening with the armed resistance, the PDFs, the N ug, the, the ER o's and etc. But as far as there was an understanding of what was happening within the resistance movement at the time, and as far as she was able to communicate anything about it, what can you tell listeners about her feelings about how the resistance was the continued resistance to the military oppressive role and coup, what her feelings were on how that was shaping out.

Sean Turnell 1:55:30

So to me, the most important thing to say on that front was that she was immensely proud. You're writing your surmise, though, to say that the information we were getting was was somewhat limited. Also, of course, what we could talk to each other about had to be circumscribed as well. So we were always conscious of the fact that when we were talking that we were being listened into, so we had to sort of talk sort of ENCODE, as time went on, I think all of us became a little bolder, and a realization to that, you know, the Keystone Cops around this sometimes didn't pick up on anything that we were saying so. So we were sort of able to be a bit more expensive. But yeah, the the major in more than impression, what she said to me very, very directly, was that she was immensely proud of the people of Myanmar for standing up for democracy, even though their experience of Democracy had been so brief. And she was especially proud of the young people and the way that they had stood up and justified all the hopes that her and others had for them. So yeah, just immensely impressed. So yeah, we weren't, you know, able to go into detail. And so I never had, you know, any deep discussions about individuals or anything like that, within, within the AUG or anything like that, but, but certainly, she was immensely heartened by the whole thing. And, and, of course, at that point, was already also resisting some of the efforts of the regime to sort of plant people and sort of, you know, engage in phone negotiations, things like that. So. So a lot of nonsense was going on, around her. But yeah, it just remained sort of very steadfast, but is certainly in the context of the resistance to, to the military, I think she was just immensely proud was, again, the next question that used to me

Host 1:57:27

was great. And so then putting a bow in your story, you described your prison experiences and the what you were charged with, and this ridiculous show trial that you went through, what are now the circumstances for your release, and how that came about?

Sean Turnell 1:57:42

Well, so it came as a as an amnesty. So which is something that I had sort of hoped for and expected all along, because I'm sure we're all aware that the situation in Myanmar is usually foreigners run afoul of the law, what usually happens is that they tried, found guilty, held for a little bit and then just booted out of the country. So all through the process. For me, that was the expectation. And the fact that it just didn't happen, became the story, you know, became a very different story, if you like, one of the worst moments was infecting being formally charged with that breach of the Official Secrets Act, and charged alongside also in the in the ministers because from that moment, it became clear that the trial was going to go for a long time. So I knew I was going to be in prison for a while. But come the conviction, I thought, okay, surely, they're going to release me now a year and a half in. But they did, they kept me on. And then finally, to nearly three months after my conviction, I was suddenly released. And it was an amnesty exactly in the traditional way of a particular holiday, but came as a complete shock and wonderful surprise to me. I'd only spoken to my wife her the day before, and we reconciled ourselves to the idea that I would probably still be a few more months in the prison that I would see another Christmas go while over there. But yeah, suddenly, on the 17th of November, God just appeared at my door and said that I'd been given an amnesty. And I joined about 5000 other prisoners who have been released that day. And then, you know, flying back to to Australia immediately by the Australian government, I think he was just to get me out of the bicycles, which is great. And got back to Australia. But where I'm leading up to on this less happy thing was that after I had made some comments back in Australia, about the nature of my imprisonment and all that the regime actually revoked that MST which had some implications for me in terms of traveling and things like that. So yeah, so I was given an amnesty now formally revoked, and then Ms legal situation as it is to the present.

Host 1:59:58

So are you able to travel outside Australia.

Sean Turnell 2:00:02

I can, but I have to be careful where I go to, I suppose one of the good things, if one can call it bad is that the regime in Myanmar was so on the nose, that there will be very few countries that would act cooperatively with them against against their enemies. So but it does mean, you know that there are parts of the world that I shouldn't go to I probably shouldn't go to Russia, for instance. But some of the neighboring countries around me Mara as well, I probably should just be quite careful about what I do on that, on that front.

Host 2:00:36

Right, so reflecting back on your 650 days in prison and your now your, your, your, your presence now and advocating, speaking and just being the strong ally and advocate of Myanmar, just reflecting on this whole journey and experience you've had, how do you feel it's changed you? How do you feel that this experience going beyond the academic and the theoretical and the analytical, but the the the experience, that the hard pressed experience that you pass through? In what ways do you feel that you've personally changed from this,

Sean Turnell 2:01:09

I think I've become a little bit more impatient with with academia, I that that was often see central to my world, and that that melding of academia and sort of activism was, again central to my life, I would probably now have moved fairly substantially away from that, that academic side of it, which I guess, you know, just follows the nature of what happened at cetera. So I think I think that in fundamental ways, I don't really think I've changed to be honest that that much. In fact, you know, perhaps even in some positive ways, because, you know, yes, I suffered in the prison, but I got to experience humanity at its very best to cop some awful things. But again, you know, I keep talking about this courage and compassion of Burmese people around me. And that just came through again and again. And there was a little incident that you might recall in the book, where I write about this young Burmese girl who I was, in a vein being transported with from the prison to the courthouse. And it was the most terrible circumstances imaginable. And in the middle of this, she hands me a cake. Just incredible gesture. And to me just summarize so much. So yeah, in some ways, just the way that people who had nothing who had less than nothing, the way that they were so generous to this person who every way imaginable was in a better position than them, in a sense, reaffirmed my my sort of faith in people and that sort of then, you know, undergirds, I guess, what I've tried to do since

Host 2:02:47

that's beautiful. To close, I just one more question for you. I know that we've talked about the kind of symbol that you've been in helping the, the democratic movement before and then the personal suffering you underwent at the hands of this regime that has been causing such suffering on Burmese people as a whole. And there was definitely enthusiasm among our listeners, that you were coming on to open up and to share your story. And although there, there were only a few questions that came, there were many messages of gratitude, encouragement, camaraderie, affection for you. And so I think it'd be very appropriate to close in having a message, speaking directly to those Burmese listeners, and just having having a captive audience here that is tuning in and listening and knows your story and knows you, what you would like to say and how what you would like to speak directly to them. We're in this current moment where it is dark, and yet there are these moments of hope and transitioning what it can be to finally take this untapped potential and turn it into something. What words would you like to say to them now those people that know you and have stood by and supported you and your journey?

Sean Turnell 2:04:03

So the first thing I think, is to say is I'm just humbled by their humanity. And so even when the attention goes on to me, and it will be in the next few weeks, you know, the book and book launches and all the rest of it, but I really want to turn the attention on to them because again, you know, this is not false modesty or anything, I was arrested and they just sat on my butt for, you know, two years or whatever, but, but those people just did so many things continue to do so many things. So again, to me, this whole experiences underlined their courage and compassion, I know using those two words, but they're the ones who immediately leap to mind. The other thing is just to say, I suppose both based on my prison experience, but also beforehand, when I worked with many young people up in neighborhood or is just to say that these are people with immense capacity. This is yet again another terrible blocking in Myanmar's progress but the raw material if I can be crude is to call it that is absolutely there that people are there. I think funnily enough that the role for for foreigners like myself useful at the moment, but I think in terms of the the economy, I think the resources are all a the the certainly the intellectual resources are but but the answers are all there I don't think me and my needs to needs assistance in that way it needs, I think support to defeat these evil forces that are currently there at bay. But but you know, the the forces of God are all in the country. So, yeah, so I don't want to sort of be too Panglossian about this at all. But just to say that, that, you know, the, the removal at some point of this military regime, for that to happen, I actually have immense confidence and optimism in the place. But But none of that of course, you know, under, under, appreciates the struggle ahead, because, you know, it really is a mess. But yeah, from what I've seen, you know, the Myanmar is the collection of the the best, the brightest, most courageous people I've ever met in my life and I'm I remain confident that they'll wind through in the end.

Host 2:06:20

Thank you, thank you so much for this, I know that you're a busy person, you have a lot going on in your life and to take these hours out of your day and talk to us and speak to our audience. I'm immensely grateful for I know, the messages I've been receiving from them in anticipation for this, that they are appreciation, they're they're appreciative to hear from you in this expansive way as well beyond some of the the quicker sound bites that you get. And and I just I thank you for all you've done and also for taking the time to sit with us and share your story as well. So thank you very much.

Sean Turnell 2:06:51

Well, thank you, in turn, actually, to the whole insight, me and my team and all the things that you do with the podcast and around it. I'm a keen listener, as I'm sure everyone is listening to these days. And, you know, you're part of the part of the solution.

Host 2:07:19

Since the coup better Burma has provided consistent humanitarian aid to vulnerable communities across Myanmar. Over time, however, we have also come to realize that another consequence of the coup is a severely collapsed economy. Trade and Tourism have almost entirely evaporated, and local artists and community suddenly found every opportunity of continuing livelihood closed off to them. To help support those artisan communities. Better Burma now brings item direct from their workshop into your home. These lovely pieces from a far corner of the world will not only light up your room or make a lovely gift for a loved one. But they'll also help dozens of artisans create sustainable businesses and livelihoods. Part of each purchase will also go towards our ongoing nonprofit mission. See these beautiful crafts, visit a local crafts.com That's a loca A L Okay, a crafts C R A F T S one word a local crafts.com. Of course, as is your preference, you can also consider making a donation through our normal channels. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian immediate missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. And the donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website aid for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b urma.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar. Available at alokacrafts.com Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's aloka crafts spelled A L O K A C R A F T S one word alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.