Transcript: Episode #218: Dhamma at a Crossroads
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Host 0:20
many longtime listeners know that our podcast platform was initially focused on interviews about the many spiritual paths that Myanmar offers meditators and monastics. But when the coup hits, we couldn't in good conscience continue to tell those stories, with many monastic sites on fire are occupied by soldiers and the Burmese people living under the military's Reign of Terror. So we expanded our mission to cover a wider range of post coup Myanmar stories. Still, some guests have a unique insight into both the intersection of the spiritual with the worldly, allowing a deeper understanding of both planes. Today's guest squarely fits in that category as you will soon hear you let's get to that interview now. The towel on me
1:38
ha ha ha ha, ha ha ha ha Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Host 2:16
For this episode of insight, Myanmar podcast, we welcome back Beth Upton, who is a meditation teacher, she was a nun with Polk Buddhist nun for many years with potlucks ADA in Burma, and has now moved into a position of teaching that meditation. We talked to Beth, I talked to Beth we talked together several years ago, before the pandemic actually. And that interview was released a couple years later. And I have to say that in looking at all of our episodes, over 200 that have come out, that is in the top five of most listened to and most popular. And so this is definitely a voice that many meditators and others out there, have really appreciated and gravitated to. And so we're really happy to bring you back. And before I bring you on Beth to just set the context for our listeners, Beth reached out to me, expressing concern about the ongoing crisis and conflict in Myanmar and feeling that she wanted to do something and be involved and engaged again, in trying to speak about what her time and Myanmar meant to her spiritually and personally, and to be able to talk about it in such a way and bring it in the radar, so to speak, to highlight her own gratitude of the time spent there and the lessons learned and the transformative experience. So that's what we're going to be doing here today, as well as talking about her experiences and how that time changed her. So Beth, thanks for reaching out. And thanks for coming back to talk on inside me and my podcast.
Beth Upton 3:56
My pleasure. Thanks for having me. And thanks for that introduction. Yeah, so I reached out to you, because towards the end of last year, I sent out a newsletter to my community. And I was just asking them for feedback. And if there's anything that I could be doing better or differently, that would serve them better. And a couple of suggestions came back that I highlight or sort of give more attention to what is happening in Myanmar, because obviously, without the Burmese tradition, there would be no, me here teaching the Dharma. And it's easy to lose sight of that. But just on a practical level, I think it's it's really difficult for people to know what to do. And so I know that you're you've been heavily involved in this issue for the past many years. So I reached out to you to see if we could collaborate.
Host 5:07
Yeah, I, I really appreciate that. And I really appreciate how where I hope this conversation will go and breaking down some of what I call those artificial barriers between the spiritual and the worldly part of it. And I think and when you're in Burma, you see how it all goes together, if you're interested in human rights and democracy, but you kind of leave this Buddhism and meditation thing aside, you're not really going to understand the country, your culture that well. So also, if you're coming only for quote, unquote, meditation and nothing else, you're you're only going to go so far, because in Burma, these things are so intertwined, interconnected. And so that's what we also want to bring to our audiences talking about whether you're coming from a background of looking more politically or at the concern about the conflict or coming from the spiritual side, being able to talk and an intersection of both of those themes, which is what we're doing here. And as we planned, and plotted out this talk and looked at what we would cover, I really appreciated the suggestion that you brought and looking at, and you just kind of hinted at just now looking at the, the uniqueness of the Dharma that you get in Burma, and what that means if it can't be accessed, and so take it from there and flesh out that idea a little more.
Beth Upton 6:28
Yeah, I mean, well, Burma isn't the sort of the only country in the world that is holding a depth of dharma, but it's definitely one of the main ones. And if we look at the teachers who have really had a huge impact on Dharma in the West, over the past few generations, couple of generations, then many of them have been really heavily influenced by the Burmese tradition. And I also think, many of those teachers who are spreading the Dharma in the West are resourced by the Burmese tradition, it's like a well that we dip into when we want to find depth. And the average practitioner, maybe just, it's easy to lose sight of what of wealth we have there. And how desperately we need to protect it. And that's one thing is just that it might not be in our minds, the value that is held there, and how much we need to protect it. And I think another piece is just not knowing what to do. And when we feel kind of disempowered or out of ideas of what to do, and most people have plenty of other things to be getting on within their lives, then we do nothing. And yeah, that that's how I see it.
Host 8:14
Thanks for that, let's, let's pick apart those different, those different points you brought, piece by piece, looking at the first one at the wealth of traditions and of spiritual practice there. I think that there's, in looking at how Buddhism and meditation has come from east to west. Over the course of generations, really, there has been some kind of thinking, I might call Orientalist in nature, in the sense that you, you're getting this special gift that has been preserved in this culture. And then you're bringing it and making it your own. And there could be a feeling like, we we've gotten what we need, you know, yes, it's nice to go back. And yes, it's nice if it's, if if it's peaceful there, and if the practice continues, and we can go back and access but really like this Dhamma is universal. And we've kind of gotten the basics of what it is and how it works and how we practice it. And so you know, it's just as valid anywhere as it is here, because it's a universal thing. And so, with that kind of mindset, there could be a feeling like, oh, yeah, that's bad, what's happening there. It's also bad what's happening in Gaza, and Ukraine and Syria and these other places, but, you know, what can I do? And I think that kind of ignores, at least from a meditator standpoint, the difference that it can feel in one's practice to come to the Dhamma and Myanmar and what it's like there versus taking it out as a package and feeling that you've got what you need. And in some ways, hey, we could bring it to our own culture actually improve upon it. There's actually there is that mentality in some traditions and some meditators is okay, well, I can fuse it with this and I can put this spin on it and I can share had been into this way and and they're kind of stuck in these old traditional religious models. And so speak to to that mindset that's there speak to what it means as a practitioner to really come and engage in the practice and Myanmar and how that is different.
Beth Upton 10:15
Yeah, well, sometimes I joke. But it's true that in the Theravada tradition, we we don't have innovation. It's not an innovative tradition, the tradition kind of by definition, is one of preservation. Sort of literally the word of the elders, were preserving the word of the Buddha, and the commentators who, who recorded the teachings of the Buddha after his death. And the idea is really one of humility. And that is that we can't improve on on the teachings of the Buddha, he was the Buddha. And the further that we get away from the time of the Buddha, the more potential we have for people's defilements to come in and distort the messaging of the Buddha. So all we are going to add is defilements and distortions, we're not going to add any great new invention, to how to make an end of suffering, the Buddha has already laid it down for us in the most elegant possible way. Now, of course, it's not that the Burmese culture has added nothing. It's, I don't think it's possible for human beings still with defilements, to engage with the Dharma and not distort it at all. Because we have defilement. So the Burmese tradition has influenced in an added some of the Burmese culture into the Dharma. But from the options that we have available to us in the world, in this day and age, they're one of the countries that has done the best job in that work of preservation. And where they have added something culturally, for the most part, they tried to bring awareness to that or declare it openly. There's a great respect for the commentaries, because there's an understanding that if we engage with the suitors just through our own modern day cultural lens, then the only way that we are going to understand that suitor, the suitor being such a brief outline of the Buddha's teachings is essentially by inventing our own new commentary, our own new interpretation of what that SUTA means. And so there's this philosophy is, okay, well, whose interpretation of the sutras likely to be more accurate, the ancient commentator, who was alive a few 100 years after the Buddha's death, or my commentary, and they fall back on the humility of relying on the commentaries, going back to the texts. And when you live in that culture, you are immersed in the richness of that, and how it shows up in little ways in in all aspects of life. That can't be encapsulated in a meditation technique. A meditation technique is, is great to have, but it's a very, very small part of the teachings of the Buddha. And if that's all that we've taken, just a meditation technique, then there's very, very much that we miss.
And I think this has been felt by by anybody who has gone to practice in Myanmar for for a stretch of time long enough to immerse themselves in the culture that we feel these teachings like faith, humility, generosity, sila, so deeply embedded in the, in the culture in a way that we can't carry away with us in a in a meditation technique. I wonder what you think Joe, because you will say lived in Myanmar for a long time.
Host 14:35
That's really beautifully put really wonderful brings back a lot of memories for me and it. If I just share a bit of my personal story, I went as a passionate meditator and the Glinka tradition. And when I've been living there for a couple years, I was taking courses at the Glencoe centers and then as I started to find monasteries in caves, which were I I found quite special places I would go and sit my own self courses and silence with eyes downcast and trying to sit as many hours as I could. And in those special places, and somehow after years of being there, I had this realization that I was taking Glink, as instructions of looking for the truth inside, we're always looking for the truth outside and have your eyes closed and look within it. This is good advice. But like any advice, you can take it to extremes that you miss out on other insights and experiences where you can gain wisdom. And I realized that in this quest to close my eyes and develop a truth inside, I was actually closing myself off from outside of the actual technique that Goenka teaches the wisdom that I could gain from being in this monastic environment with good ethical monks and lay people that were around. And so I made this decision. One time, when I had a break from work that I was going to go to this monastery, and I was going to have my eyes open as much as I could, I was going to talk in Burmese as much as I could. And I spent a week there, and I would meditate a couple hours a day, but for the most part, I was just hanging around all the different people in this this little special monastery and learning through those interactions. And I just I was blown away in feeling that I had, I had I gained so much this week, almost things that would have taken me course, after course, after course to understand of that technique, just by being in that environment, and engaging, opening my heart and not being fixated on this technique that I had to practice and my own practice. And it it freed me up and loosened me and, and, and opened me to this Burmese Buddhist culture. And once I had that insight, I mean, that was transformative. And that changed me. And I'm not saying that, in the sense that this is better than intensive meditation, of course, there's a time and place for both more, it was just a balance that I saw it and I found. And so when meditators become in the country, and I became something of a became somewhat known at that time, and people would ask me for advice and help out in different places of where to go and what to access and such, I would start to give that advice to people coming in and start to say, start to speak to those practitioners who were feeling that they had to spend every minute of the country in this intensive practice, and encouraging this balance, not talking them out of that practice. But saying the way I would describe it is I'd use the analogy, I'd say it's like you came to this beach, this, this gorgeous beach of endless coastline. And you just insist that you want to spend all your time in the swimming pool. You know, okay, it's great to be in the swimming pool, but make sure you go in the beach as well, because the beach is really amazing, or the analogy that's often used is that whatever practice one is doing this is like a plate from a buffet table, and you've been served this plate, this is a great plate, this is one of the best plates you can make with the buffet table in terms of the balance that you get of all these different dishes that you choose. But you're at the buffet. Now you don't have to constrict yourself to this plate, you can be at that buffet. And that's where when when I speak to people like yourself who have spent this time in Burma and develop from a spiritual practice, one of the questions I always go to, is I say, I know you came there for this intensive spiritual practice, and you did this meditation. But please tell me outside of that, those courses or that those retreat you did or this time with this great master teacher, outside of that, how did you actually learn from Burmese Buddhist culture. And that's where you start to get the story of the conversation with the taxi driver that, you know, you tell you're coming from meditation, he invites you over to his house for tea and, you know, or the old woman at the monastery that comes and gives this Donna every day or, you know, the child who wakes up early in the morning and picks the the blossoms to be able to put on the Buddha statue. And these other stories come out where Pete you you find that these practitioners are actually more moved by their experience as I was this experience within this Burmese Buddhist culture by that's coming through all facets. That that becomes at least as as transformative as the actual practice itself, which is really incredible to say, yes,
Beth Upton 19:26
exactly. In the Buddhist teachings, we find these two truths. And these two parallel truths one, that we are an island unto ourselves, which is in a way true and then the other that wise association is 100% of our of our success on the path and the way that the Burmese Dharma has come to the west for some Reason has been largely in the form of silent retreats, maybe because it's a relatively easy context to replicate. And kind of commodify if you like, it's a relatively simple way for people to engage with the practice. And but in that we lose the whole of the relational side of the Dharma, which is a massive part of our noble eightfold path, our right action, right speech, all of the skillful things that we learn in relation to one another, the runway hires, the generosity, the trust, the way that we support each other in community. And the function of the relational side of the practice is that it mirrors back to us things that we don't see in ourselves when we're just alone with our little meditation technique. Because to us, those defilements have been normalized in our experience of ourselves. And obviously, that's exacerbated when we've come from a whole other culture. So when we as Westerners immerse ourselves in the Burmese culture, oftentimes we realize how close we are and a little bit distrustful. You know, in comparison to the Burmese being so generous and open hearted, warm and humble, it mirrors back to us when we also have room for growth in the Dharma. And we're losing those skills in the West, I've spent the last many years building community here in the West. And it's sad to see how much the relational skill is gradually atrophying in us over time, how much work we need to do, just to be open hearted with each other, just to be generous of spirit with each other, their skills that we need to teach each other, that we learn through immersion when we go to a country like Myanmar.
Host 22:01
Yeah, that's very true. And I'm thinking, an anecdote, anecdote came into my mind as you were talking and thinking about what you learned from the spiritual community and what you learned from an intensive course. And there's, I want to share one thing, personally, one insight that I had in my time there that was transformative, and has really changed me to this day, that I don't know how many courses I would have sat before this, of intensive meditation before I came to embrace this, once I opened my eyes to this culture and to this manifestation. And that was that, you know, as Westerners so much of us are wracked by guilt and an insecurity and feeling of not being enough and, you know, self doubt all these things. And, and for me, personally, just feeling that always kind of questioning my motives and my pure actions and finding fault with good things that I do. And I would find that someone when I was at this monastery, and looking at the interactions, that, that a person would come to the monastery, and they would do some small thing, they would give 1000 chat to, you know, $1 donation, or they would clean the toilets, or offer some, some sweet or rice or whatnot. And they would just feel so happy with themselves just this unadulterated, pure joy of what they were giving and this truth that they had done something good that this this this holistic, devotion and belief that that this single action was good, this didn't mean that they were a good person or a pure soul, or that they wouldn't extrapolate in that way. But just in this one moment, I have done something good, I have done this good thing, and I can take refuge in that. And seeing the way that they held it, it changed me because it made me realize that when I did a good deed, however small it was, the smallness didn't matter at all. I could take joy and refuge without any self doubt that whatever else I did, whoever else I was, whatever else was part of me, this one single thing I did was good and wholesome and pure. And I could feel happy that I did that and let go of everything else. And how was transformative to me, you know that, that, that letting go of that weight, which I don't again, I don't know how long I would have had to sit to be able to find that for myself and just seeing that that Buddhist culture enacted in front of me. It showed me how I could just build on those small good deeds and take refuge and feel joy in something without beating myself up for it and leaving the rest aside. Yeah,
Beth Upton 24:40
that's a beautiful example. I remember once being a part of OIC and we were in group interview and the teacher said, if you've done an unskillful action, remember it once and learn from it. And then don't think about it again. If you've done a skillful action Remember it again and again and again, rejoice in it again and again and again, because it will condition you to do more. From our cultural conditioning, we like what. And, you know, maybe just hearing that once, wouldn't bring about great change. But as you said, being immersed in a culture where you see people practicing that is, is so transformative. When I heard you speak as well, it reminded me of a time when I'd been on retreat with Pat oxido. And I'd already been in Myanmar, about five years at that time, in love with the culture, it felt like home. And my teacher had just told me that he wanted me to join him on a trip to California, and that he wanted me to essentially leave Myanmar, at least for a while. And it really hit me hard, like, oh, gosh, I wasn't expecting that I didn't see it coming. And I went back to my cootie, just to sort of digest the news. And there was a old Burmese man who had been given the job to come to the retreat center and water the plants and do the gardening. And when I got back to my cootie, he was watering the plants outside my cootie. And I just looked out the window, and I saw him kind of in the way that you described, so happy to be doing this service for the monastery. So happy, so humble, so grateful to be surrounded by Dharma, and I cried. And it the thought arose in me, this is what you lose. You lose moments, like every day, you lose these small moments of seeing that gardener in his humility, happy to be here for the for the Koestler that he's doing, you lose the the joy of the cooks who chop your vegetables come and do voluntary service from the village every night, you these tiny things, this is the big loss. And, and it was a lot to grieve.
Host 27:22
Another anecdote that comes to me and I shared this on a couple of episodes, for those listeners that have heard it, it was very impactful. And a surprising one to quote as, as, from all the different experiences, it's a surprising one to stand out. I was in this again hills. And there was a guy about 30 years old Burmese guy, and he was kind of known as the village drunk and couldn't really hold down a job or a relationship and was kind of seen as something of a failure. Really, really nice, sweet soul. And so I talked to him occasionally. And at one point, we were talking and Water Festival was coming up, and he said, Oh, this, this Water Festival, I'm going to be a monk for these 10 days. And as many Burmese men do, and I said, Oh, that's, that's great, that's Glad to hear it. And he said, Yeah, you know, kind of opened up and he said, You know, I, I drink a lot, and I can't handle being a monk for much longer, because I'm addicted to alcohol, but for these 10 days, for these 10 days, I will be pure. And I will be able to take refuge in the purity that I hold in these 10 days. And that's I'm kind of paraphrasing because this was years ago, it's my memory of it. But it was something like, this is all I can do. But I can do this. And I and I'm so happy that I'll have this. And that that conversation just it moved me for years and years beyond. And it's a strange one to quote because you're talking about a drunk who can't come over his addiction to alcohol, and is by his own admission, is only able to have these 10 days in this year where he can, he can devote himself in this way. But what I found so beautiful and so inspiring and so powerful, courageous with a story is that you, you have this opportunity in Burma to be able to take this path when and how you choose it and to make it your own when and how you can. And even by his own admission, if this is the only way at this time, maybe things will change. But at this time, this is the only way he can access. This is again speaking to this Western sense and this this struggle that I have sometimes of being unkind to yourself and beating yourself up too much for your failings. And just to see that someone whose life has clearly not gone the way that he wanted to, and he's not really on the track to come out of that. Even in even even a life like that is able to access this is in his own words, these 10 days of purity, this thing that can bring them joy and know that he's at least for that time that he's he's getting the seed and and embracing it. I was like, tell me what other culture in the world would have someone from this walk of life having this insight of information in terms of what he can do with what he can become. And if he can see that if someone from from his station and his experiences and his struggles, can see those options and take advantage of it, then whatever challenge I'm going through in my life and whatever feeling I feel I have, I cannot like him as an inspiration. I can also embrace for whatever momentary access to something pure and good and wholesome. I can also do that and leave behind my own insecurities. And it was it was a such an inspiring little moment of conversation.
Beth Upton 30:40
Thanks so much for sharing Jaya, that's a beautiful story I hadn't heard it before. And yeah, it made me think that here in the West, there's some sort of Buddhist words that have become naturalized, we kind of know now what is karma, for example, Jana Vipassana these words have been, become quite well known. But there's this word, which is just so central to the Burmese vocabulary that hasn't quite integrated into our western Dharma vocabulary in the same way. And that's pusilla or CUSA, as they say, in Burmese, and whoever you meet in Myanmar, the shop owner or the local drunk, they all know this word. They all know what is Kusa? And again, COSLA is just, it's so much more rich and so much more broad than a meditation technique. It's know that the wholesome way in which we engage with the whole of life, and there's an instinct for what is pusilla, what is Akkus love what is wholesome, what is not what is the right way, what is not? What's skillful, what's unskillful. And I don't know what we do to integrate that richness of understanding into the West, my instinct on it is that it needs like I said, more of the relational side, more of the community aspect. So that we learn those ways of engaging with life more broadly, in a Dharma way.
Host 32:23
Well, I think partly what it needs and what happened, particularly in large, much larger numbers during the transition period. And this is again, talking about this intersection of the worldly and the spiritual, and how you really can't live in just one sphere in Burma, if you're trying to understand or integrate and the country. But what it needs is those as more and more of those practitioners going to the golden land to have their own experiences, their own insights directly in those communities, and then bring them back in their own way as you've done to their culture in their community from whatever different meditation lineage they're in. And so this is really a perfect a natural segue into looking at this question of what is lost when this has become closed off. And we're in a situation where for three years, there has been terrible conflict, and it's not safe, nor is it appropriate or ethical for foreign meditators to go to Burma right now for reasons we can get into later. And we don't know when it will be safe and ethical, again, we don't know how bad the conflict will be and how long it will go on. And God forbid, if the military wins, what kind of perverted Buddhism, propagandized, hateful, nationalist Buddhism, we're going to see, in ways that they've already showed their hand over the last decade. And so we certainly hope that things can come to a piece sooner and that that this can be accessed, but for the time, that it's not touched upon. What it is that we as a as a Western foreign practitioner community, what we lose when, although the Dhamma might be universal, as we say, this source, this richness is something that we can no longer access indefinitely.
Beth Upton 34:21
Hmm, yeah. Well, the first thing is what we've already spoken about now over the, over the beginning of our conversation, which is the richness of a culture that has been holding the Dharma for hundreds of years. And that shows up in little ways that we can't anticipate, because it's built and it's layered over time, and it's complex. It's rich, and it's diverse, and we lose that. And so what we the little pieces and fragments that we carry back to our own culture. It's like the simile that you gave where we've got one dish from a buffet, so we lose that diversity and complex STM richness and layering of the of the Buddhist teachings that we find in a culture that's been carrying it for years. And then something that we haven't really spoken about yet is if we really are no longer going to have access to that culture, then we lose an awful lot of depth, an incredible amount of depths that I had. Before this conflict, I had kind of assumed that, if ever I had a very refined question about some technical detail of one of the texts, I could go to Burma and someone would give me the answer. That's where the real refinement of first of all scholastic knowledge, but also very deep practice knowledge is held. If I want to find a practitioner, who is significantly more refined in their practice than me, I want to go to Burma. If I want to find out what this one line of the pattern is referring to, I want to go to Burma. Where do I go if I can't go there? Where do I go? In Myanmar, even in the tiniest little village, you can wake up in the morning to hear the whole of the pattern any day. So be in China chanted round and round on loudspeakers blasting out across the village, very few Buddhist practitioner being Westerners very few dedicated practitioners would even know what the pattern any day set is. And so we lose this. And that's dangerous. Because when we lose the really refined teachings, when we lose access to them, it's only one or two generations before. We have no living person who really understands what they mean. And then gradually, we start to lower the bar for ourselves in terms of the refinement of our practice and the refinement of our learning knowledge. So that's another huge huge loss. And so much, incredibly powerful wisdom, held in that deep refined scholastic knowledge and practicing knowledge. The pattern, for example, just to go on about this same text, is like a seven volume exposition of cause and effect detailing in unimaginable refinement, the causal relationships between mind and matter. It's like solves this so called hard problem of consciousness that's stumping science. And it's there, it's recorded. And there are people in Myanmar who are discerning those things in their meditation practice. So I want to do my best to keep these things alive in the West. But I'm nowhere near an expert in these things like some of the scholars and practitioners we can find in, in Myanmar. I know some, but I'm like a baby in comparison to some of these scholars and practitioners that we can find in Myanmar. So a huge loss if we lose access to this culture. And the other thing that comes to mind is when somebody's given you sort of like the ultimate gift, and then they are suffering. If we don't reciprocate, then we lose something in ourselves. We lose some some authenticity or alignment in ourselves. On some level, we know something is out of balance there. And whether you've directly spent time in Myanmar or not, if you are a dedicated practitioner of the Dharma, then part of that has come from the Burmese tradition and the dedication of the of the Burmese practitioners over hundreds of years. So when we receive that gift, and we don't repair you when reciprocity is needed. We are not fully congruent in ourselves, which is well, it is why I reached out to you and it also brings me back to this question of for your average household The who feels this in themselves? What to do? Because I don't know, I don't, I don't have the I don't have the practical answers for people.
Host 40:19
I appreciate that. And I appreciate how you commented on this last time we talked, we actually last episode to inform listeners that haven't heard it. It was most of the interview was something we had recorded before the pandemic, but there was about a 30 minute introduction to it, where we addressed the post coup period. And you said something in that introduction, I've always remembered and always kind of reframed back to guests, I have tried to understand this problem in this context. You said, How am I as a as a practitioner as an emerging meditation teacher? What am I supposed to do to respond to a brutal violent military coup and resistance happening halfway across the world? I, I have no training or background and even knowing what I'm supposed to do about this. And I just think that's a that's the way a lot of people feel, I think, for those people that have decided they want to care. I think this is the question. There are practitioners that try to separate this and try to see this as, as in these lines between the spiritual and the worldly, and trying to delineate that they're in one and not the other, which I don't really think is possible. That's another, another tangent we can get to later. But to respond to your immediate question here of what can you do, I think, one thing to look at, is to frame that feeling of confusion and helplessness that you feel in terms of being out of your sorts, and being out of your depth was really no different than everyone in Myanmar right now, you know that they're not half a world away, they're in the midst of it. But when this happened, everyone, whether you were Burmese, or a friend of the Burmese or in the country, or outside the country, you're a student, or a professional or monk, or whoever, whatever you are, who among us, aside from very few of you know, grassroots activists, or human rights, democracy, promoters, who among us, whatever our stations had any bearing or understanding of what do you possibly do in this moment, and so, including myself, and so for the past three years of what it's been Now, unfortunately, I think all of us from our stations and walks of life, who have chosen to want to be involved in some way, some a little more, some a little less, doesn't matter, have had to figure out that question for ourselves is, what can I do if I if I choose to care if I choose to open my heart? If I choose to give my time? What can I do? And for myself? Once I really answered that question, which took a few weeks after the coup to really have a clear answer in my heart. Is this something I want to engage in? Is it something I can? Is it? Is it something that I'm ready to give myself to? And once that answer became clear, and also being clear to myself with the personal risks that I would take and doing those actions? Once that was something I chose? I wanted to do it was then a question of, well, how do I do it? And I think it's like many things in life, once you have that inner volition to want to, to want to care in whatever way one can, whatever, whatever limits on that which we all have, then the opportunities of realize, you know, I'm not helpless, I do have agency, I can do this, I can do that I can do this. And just to name some of those things off, I think people that that start to open their hearts and their minds, Will, these things will emerge themselves. But to give some guide into the ways one can proceed Well, of course you can. Being informed. First and foremost is is very important. Just being able to understand what is actually happening, whether that's listening to podcasts like these or reading books or articles. And then using that information to be able to inform people in our community in our government, in the media to encourage more people to pay attention to. One person described Myanmar has been the Myanmar regime the Myanmar military has been like a mushroom that thrived in the darkness and the cruelty and the violence and the atrocities have always thrived in a short attention span, a perceived lack of geopolitical importance which is absurd because it's extremely important geopolitically. And to kind of fatalism in terms of, there's nothing we can do this military has been in control forever. They'll always be in control and And then maybe, maybe you can throw some racism in there too, that they don't quite look exactly like us or like people in other countries which we might be more engaged with. And in that darkness, the military is like a mushroom that just thrives and grows. And so what can we do from our corner to just keep some bit of light on there as much as we can. Another thing is reaching out to Burmese friends. Just simply letting them know you're there. You're an ally, Burmese diaspora Burmese in the country, just letting them know you're a friend, you're an ally, you're there to help you're there to listen. You're there to talk, whatever, whatever one can do just that you're showing up to some degree you're showing up. Another thing that can be done is volunteering. Our organization better Burma, we we are engine as volunteers, we almost everything we do is volunteer driven. There are other organizations out there that could certainly use volunteer help according to your volition, and in your time and skills and availability. Of course, donation, you know, material donation, financial donation, is always helpful. And, and many of the small organizations like ours, like better Burma is only able to stay afloat and only able to survive month to month based on small donations by individuals who care and trust the mission and want to, to be able to support it. These are just some of the ideas other things can emerge. I think the the first thing is just opening one's heart. And, and choosing that this is something you want to care about and want to stand in solidarity while also acknowledging and knowing that limits that we all have in our own lives, you can't give unconditionally in this way and looking at within this space of where I can care and what I can give. Okay, let me open to what I can do. And then things start to fall into place and start to realize whether you're, you know, a Burmese in harm's way trying to protect your community or a an ally living abroad who is showing up and caring, then these things start to emerge of realizing, oh, I can this is small, but I can do this. No, this is small. And I can also do that. And that starts to grow. Yeah,
Beth Upton 47:29
thank you, that was really powerful, actually, just to hear you list off some very practical, very possible things that people can do, just for your average person who cares. I also wonder Joah because you, you know more of the detail, I think, than I do about what it's like in Myanmar at the moment, on balance, would you advise people to go?
Host 47:59
No, I wouldn't. And I wrote an essay on this actually an open letter, because I've been getting more and more questions from Western students, asking about the ethics and safety of going and I'll put a link to that letter in the show notes. It's an open letter just so I didn't have to respond to every individual email that came. First is the question of safety, and your own safety. Anyone who tells you that there's some way to be personally safe, physically safe, and Myanmar is delusional. It's true that there are places in the country that are more or less safe, but it's delusional to think that there is a place which is protected from the possibility of violence, it can come at any time from any corner. And it's also delusional to say that if you're, if you're going for dharma, if you're going to the monastery, if you're in a meditation course you'll be safe. You will not be monasteries have been bombed, they've been turned into refugee centers, they've been taken over as military bases to carry out further atrocities. There have been silent retreats as June bin Zayed, shared in one podcast where silent retreats retreats were interrupted by soldiers entering dama halls with full gear. Bullets were actually flying through cooties and meditation cells. You You cannot take any guarantee of safety anywhere you go. That's there. Yes, places are more relatively more safe, but there's no safety. A further question of safety is not your own as a foreign meditator. But in those Burmese that will be helping you and by associating with well wishing Burmese who as we know are generous to a fault and want to help to a greatest extent possible and not share their difficulties. You will put them in harm's way by generating suspicion of why they're associated with a foreigner at this time and any A spiritual benefit that you might accrue will be completely negated by the fact that you, you, willingly, selfishly could have put someone in harm's way by by being able to be there, which is a tragic fact of the current situation and not the Myanmar that we knew. Another issue is the broken economy. And you know, we better Burma, we're sending all the donations we get to support not just the growing displaced people, IDP camps and medicine and food and such, but many monasteries and nunneries that don't, the local communities can't feed them anymore. You can think about how painful it is to think of how generous the Burmese are to the Sangha. And that they don't have enough money to feed to provide basic nutrition to some of their own monasteries, which is why we're stepping in with whatever donations we get from supporters. And so you're taking your your, again, it's it's a people that are generous to a fault, they treat you like royalty, when you come they're so happy to share the Dhamma with you, they're not going to share their difficulties. But you're going to be taking the little that they have right now. Then the last bit I put on it is that you're legitimizing a murderous regime by going, let's not speak around that. It's a very common thing for meditators to say, and I've heard this many times, oh, I'm going for Diamond not for politics. I don't worry about that. I'm not involved in those things. That's magical thinking. You know, you're by saying that you're not going for politics. It doesn't mean it's not political, it means that you're pretending it's not political, you're telling yourself that the regime is trying to get foreigners to come to show a sign of normality and and even at the top levels, even min on lying the dictator has been for for these. Largely this this big Buddha image in Naypyidaw, which is getting a lot of attention, as well as other consecration. They're trying to bring in foreign monks, there are pictures of foreign monks at these consecration ceremonies. And you can say, Oh, I'm just I, this beautiful Buddha image that's going to give devotion I'm just going to be able to give reverence for that. Well, no, this is a, a delusional, ignorant way of trying to artificially separate the spiritual from the worldly, and not looking at hundreds of years of Burmese history of how these things go together. And by you being at a ceremony, religious, spiritual Buddhist ceremony, where the military is seen as legitimate in the offerings that they're making, while they're, you know, butchering their own people, your presence there, and even if you're not going to these consecration ceremonies, but just by being in the country, you are indicating, by your presence, that the military is the authority there. And so that's also a problem. So these are the points that I flesh out in terms of why it's not physically safe, nor is it ethical at this time. To go there, tragically, which is obviously painful to say, because you and I, and so many others have just benefited so tremendously from experiences here.
Beth Upton 53:27
Yeah. As you were speaking, very decisively on that, that question, which I appreciate, it's very clear. It left me wondering, in this case, how do we keep this connection to the Burmese culture alive here in the West? You know, if we're not going to go, we're not going to form new memories of what it's like to be immersed in that culture for the foreseeable future. And one thing that came to mind is maybe what we could do with expatriated Burmese communities that exist in the West, what more support what more voice we could give to them, that we maintain this cultural connection?
Host 54:22
Yeah, absolutely. And there are not just expat communities in diaspora, but there's also hundreds of 1000s maybe into the millions of displaced Burmese they don't know when they can ever return home. And so, you know, this is a culture that is not public with their, their challenges and their pain. And as we maybe are in the West, and which I think has also been a topic and the Burmese diaspora community in terms of the advocacy they need to do that they need to be a bit more public, which is not natural them probably with their, their Buddhist background, but I think to whatever it's stance, we can reach out to those communities and they're very vibrant, not just Burmese communities and all the different ethnicities, but Buddhist communities that are still bringing their own status out and having their own retreats and having their own discourses. And there's not a great strong connection between the kind of Western Dhamma practitioner communities and those Burmese Buddhist diaspora communities, that I think there's a lot that they can share together. And I know when I tap into one of those Burmese communities in the States, I'm immediately transported back to Myanmar, the generosity, the mindset, the kindness, it it's just a microcosm of feeling back there again.
Beth Upton 55:45
Yeah, the Mohinga. I was I was in London, at the end of last year for three months. And I realized that there's actually a small but quite strong Burmese community in Walthamstow, which is the bar of of London where I was living, you can get a quite a good Mohinga, not very far from where I would stay in. And I didn't realize I just, I just got chatting with a guy in a phone shop. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you're, you're Burmese but strengthening these connections somehow feels really important. This is just me thinking out loud. You know, for anyone who's listening or any of the community of meditators that I work with, maybe we can share ideas about how to make those links stronger.
Host 56:38
We can and this would be lovely if this was the beginning of some conversation of greater collaboration, that's able to be reciprocal, reciprocal, and not just giving us this access to the spiritual community and these gifts that we've received, but also standing in solidarity with their struggle at this time of darkness. And, and I do want to ask you, we've touched upon this a bit before, but I want to put it directly to see if there's some some more to explore here. As again, we're looking at these two main questions. One being should one engage and and why should one and the second being? How should one engage? And I want to go back to that first question. And as I was preparing for this interview, kind of a funny analogy occurred in my mind, I was thinking of the the Black Lives Matter protest in the US and when professional athletes started to speak up more about the racism and injustice in America, and especially LeBron James being one and one of the criticisms that came that became kind of famous in our country, were certain conservative politicians or commentators telling LeBron that he needed to shut up and dribble was the term shut up and dribble dribble the ball, meaning that your job is on the basketball court, stay with the ball and leave this kind of social engagement stuff to us. And I'm thinking of this analogy because you Beth are becoming a very sought after teacher rightly so and developing a student base around the world and people who really appreciate you a testament to our hundreds of episodes that you're one of the most listened to episodes that we've had, that you're drawing this attention. And I think they're I certainly think there are many listeners there are many listeners there many students of yours that are feeling caring about this wanting to engage these are the very ones who wrote you in this newsletter and put wanted to put this more on your radar as well. There's many out there that care and that want to show up and and I don't want to minimize that at all. However, there's others that I think are more in the mindset of shut up and dribble, like, come on, Beth, I'm tuning into you because I want to hear about past lives or, or insight or your detailed meditation instructions. I'm, I don't go to LeBron James to hear him talk about racism, I see him shoot a three point or I don't go to Beth Upton to hear your talk about social engagement and political Myanmar. I go to meditation and structured instructions in my own personal development. And so for for those meditators coming with that perspective or background, and again, I don't want to overgeneralize I really want to call out and appreciate the large number of students of yours and meditators around the world who have donated to our nonprofit have volunteered in some way have spread the news. There are many individuals like that. But for those that are coming with the other mindset, how would you respond to that?
Beth Upton 59:54
Yeah, it's it's nuanced because I think we can definitely fall out of balance in both directions. So there's a way in which we can fall out of balance in the Dharma becoming overly politicized. And the way that manifests is sort of an underlying or an unquestioned belief or an instinct, that the way for me to, or the way for people to make an end of suffering, is to make samsara and not be samsara. So if I see external suffering, I have to go and do something about that. And if we go too far down that road, then well, to use the words of the Buddha, we reap only weariness, because there is going to continue to be conflict and suffering of all manifestations in the world. And there's, there's essentially no end to it. So if this is the only fight, we're fighting the political fight, then or the external, let's do something about the external terrible things that we see happening in the world, then probably something is a bit off balance in our practice, and there's maybe things inside of ourselves that we are not attending to, because it's, for whatever reason, psychologically more comfortable for us to focus on those external things. And there's no end to that. And so we see this caution in the Buddha's teachings about only ever fighting that external fight. But there's also the way in which we can take that messaging to the other extreme, and I think this is what you're talking about, where you hear meditators saying, Okay, I'll just do my silent retreat. And that's what I do, I don't want to involve, that's just externalizing, that's just, you know, can't do anything about that. This is also a mistake. And the reason is that responsibility is our working ground. So if we never pick up any challenge, then we don't give ourselves any working ground in which to build our spiritual qualities. When I say build our spiritual qualities that can sound quite self interested. But it's not because those spiritual qualities are service and generosity and faith and sila, and all of these relational, non self based qualities. And so we practice those things. And we learn those things in relation and by picking up a working ground. Now, the responsibilities that we pick up are always a choice. Always a choice, the commitments that we make, the responsibilities that we pick up are always a choice, and it doesn't work. It simply doesn't work to go around telling people which responsibilities they should pick up. Nobody likes it. It's always counterproductive. But what we can do is, is pick up the responsibilities that we choose, in our own way and show the benefits of being in those working grounds. In a Dharma for way, in a graceful way, all of the benefits that we gain from picking up a responsibility picking up a challenge and learning and growing in it. And I think, for a lot of Westerners, we are faced with so many responsibilities and challenges to pick up and work with in our Dharma practice, many people have the feeling that they don't need one more. And that is, that's ultimately their personal choice. But I think the point of this conversation is just to encourage, this is a good one to pick up. You know, for many reasons. It's a good one to pick up because we're in a debt of gratitude to this culture is a good one to pick up because by serving and supporting the Burmese community, our whole Dharma ecosystem is healthier. Yeah, so it's a good one to pick up. I think it's probably not helpful to get into shirts. But just encouragement. Yeah. Does that answer your question?
Host 1:04:46
Yeah, that's, that's beautiful. It's a beautiful answer of fleshing out this depth and complexity. I really appreciate it and I know you have to get going. So I appreciate this time you spent with us and perhaps as a last question we've covered a lot of ground and a short time we can climb forever witnesses to people who have lived in this country for so long and have so much to share. But to just close if there is an anecdote, a memory, a wish or any any any good thought are a good pass thing to share that you might want to close with and leaving our listeners mind.
Beth Upton 1:05:25
Oh, gosh, you've put me on the spot there. Because as you said that any anecdote or something my mind floods like memories of images, 1000s and 1000s of images and memories and images racing through my mind.
Oh, gosh, where to start. And one thing that came to my mind was, when I was staying at Park, there was a lay woman, they're called on Myanmar. And she had a special liking for the Westerners. And she used to go to such great lengths to find us cornflakes. She knew that we weren't used to eating like fried noodles for breakfast. So she would, she would, she would travel to go to the most rarefied she could possibly find. And then with absolute glowing face, she would come to my cootie come to my co teachers before breakfast, I have something for you. And she'd present us this box of cornflakes with so much joy. I don't know why I chose all of the 1000s. But yeah, just a small example.
Host 1:06:42
Thank you, thank you for sharing that and and thank you for reaching out and making this interview possible. I hope this is the beginning of more and more that we can explore what to do and how to do it. And I really appreciate you for taking the time to be here for that.
Beth Upton 1:06:57
My pleasure, thanks for making the time for all of the work that you do on this topic of course.
1:07:16
Need to anyway, Go Go's niZi Shuckle me a Nandana
Host 1:07:27
thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. As regular listeners are aware, we often remind our audience about our nonprofit mission better Burma at the end of the show. Truth be told, fundraising is hard work. And I can personally attest the fact that it's really no fun to keep asking for contributions. Yet the situation on the ground now in Myanmar so distressing that we continue to do so on behalf of the Burmese people. What is most helpful at this time are recurring donations, which help alleviate both the stress and time involved in fundraising. If you were able to pledge a certain amount per month, our team can plan around having at least a consistent minimum amount to work within each month. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CVM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or your mark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. And the donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org. That's betterburma. One word spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. See, if you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar available at alokacrafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's aloka crafts spelled A L O K A C R A F T S one word alokacrafts.com. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.