Transcript: Episode #217: Bo Thanmani
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:08
I'd like to welcome everyone tuning into this episode. Many of you now listening likely have a measure of personal freedom and liberty in your own lives, freedoms that the speaker you're about to hear from no longer enjoys. I do not say this to make anyone feel guilty but to offer a reminder that we are very fortunate to have a degree of agency and safety in our lives that the upcoming guests and everyone else and Myanmar these days can only dream of. So after you hear their story, please consider how you may use your freedom to support or advocate on behalf of the Burmese people any action no matter how small counts now let's hear what they have to say.
Host 1:08
in my way I I absolutely hate and it was it was it was it was so upside down I'm here with both m&e resistance leader who was formerly known by his monastic name as Shin SOPA. And when he was a monk and different name when he was a layperson, which must seem like many, many years before, both domine in your young life, you've taken on very different human forms and activities, which we'll get into here. I should note before we start that there is one very controversial story for which you're most known. And I think it would be good to address that, first of all, and then go a bit back into your your early life as a monk before that. But because you also have this richness of background that I had no idea about, and only started to learn as I started to prepare for this interview, which we'll get into in a bit after we address the some of the more recent events associated with your life. Most people who are familiar with you and know your name who are listening now, they would know you for a particular incident that you were involved in that happened last year. However, there's probably some listeners tuning in that don't really have any idea what we're talking about and are not familiar with this incident. So to start talking and start this discussion from here, I think it might be best if you can set the scene in your own words as to what happened last year that became the source of a very big controversy.
Bo Thanmani 3:09
So firstly, I want to tell you my shot back wrong Hall and became a novice. You know, my family was very poor, and they could not manage to send to me at school. So I decided to become a novice to learn further education. Yes, when I was 13 years old, I became a novice and I study around Myanmar, in Burma. And then later, I studied English and then I went to Europe, especially I was in Germany. nearly eight years, I was and since that time, I was involved in the non violence activities, like walking from Cologne to Berlin, from Cologne to Berlin, and from Bangkok to mess out from New York to Washington DC. So to express my country's situation, and also to do this activity. Then, when I then 2011, I came back to Myanmar. And then I wanted to do education projects. And I wanted to teach, you know, that is my vision to teach the kids especially I wanted to upgrade the ruler every area countrysides people to upgrade then I in 2021 and Expectedly, there was a military coop, and I was involved in also protesting against the millet Free cube. And nearly one month I was protesting every day, demonstrating every day. And then suddenly I I, in my eyes that literally was shooting with the, you know what with the guns, and I especially one teacher who was my friend and a she was shot and dead. And because of her and not only because of our but also because of the many young people dined. And I wanted to protect my people. And I wanted to respond against the military regime, then I decided to do something activities against the regime. Yeah, 2021 2022 I did a lot of activities to do against the military regime. And by 2022 Last year, I decided to disrobe because what I'm doing is against the military and involved in political activities. And that's why I want to do more free and more freely I want to do is do so I do this roped and see I'm trying to do revolution, let's say to do revolution. So yeah. Our our fight till end all the regime. So that is my, my mind strong decision.
Host 6:50
How difficult was the decision to decide to disrobe? Hmm,
Bo Thanmani 6:53
is this difficult because, you know, I was wearing a robe since 2006. When I was 13 years old. And the 40 years or many years I was wearing a robe. But it was not easy. It was not easy. But on the other hand, I think it is much much better to do a political campaign or to do revolution as a layman not as a monk. But now I know how to adjust as a layman live. And but it's not really difficult. It's okay I can handle.
Host 7:40
So you say that you disrobed in order to do revolutionary and political activities? That's a rather general and vague description. Can you be a bit more specific in after you disrobed? What exactly did you begin doing as a lay person to lead these revolutionary and political activities? Yeah,
Bo Thanmani 8:03
with the you know, with a robe I can't invoke everything and also I should not do some activities as a monk. So sometimes I have to I have to deal with this revolution fighters and I am organizing some activities and you know, the Military Region especially that they are searching me every wall and they wanted to arrest me and that's why also is not you know, not convenient as a monk that's why also ideas just robbed Yeah, as as as a layperson. I have to do a lot of a lot of things here. Especially like I'm, I'm helping people. And I'm doing also a university project, a University of rulership project here. So, as a limit, I can do a lot too, but mainly is that I wanted to do for many, and as a monk, I can do for many as a layperson, I can do too, but it's not the same as a monk. But as a monk, you can you can make a lot of influence on people, but at least as a lay power version. I don't have much power like a monk. That is different.
Host 9:52
Right? So as a lay person, can you tell us what you're doing what you have been doing? been for the last couple of years, what your position is, what your role is, what kind of activities you're involved in, as far as is safe to be able to share publicly. What can you tell us about what exactly you're doing as a lay person involved in the revolution?
Bo Thanmani 10:13
Yeah, at the beginning, I protested, leading the speeches, I was making speeches around the, around the township. Township is the mob and Township, I went to village to village. And then making speeches against the regime at the beginning, then construct, construct Odyssey directed by Aug, at the time not a new G, but crbh instructed to, to form the people's administration, people's administration, everywhere. So I did, that administration around the around the township, or from village to village. And then I am obviously elated, as advice advisor of advisor of people's administration, township. So I'm involved in down as administration of the, of the of the area of the township. The township means that under Township, there are 168 villages. So this in this time, revolutionary time, we need also to have our own administration. So that means we don't we don't accept the administration of a regime, the military regime, and we have our own administration. So I'm leading this group. And also I have to organize some armed groups to be united as a I'm like, organizer, and also as a leader of, of the township, I have to arrange some meetings, and to go on our revolution. So that is my role in right now. And, and we wish that to finish our revolution, as soon as possible. Yes, thank you.
Host 12:59
I would like to ask a follow up question about the work you did in how you describe organizing the different armed groups. This is very interesting to look at, in more detail for several reasons. I mean, one, in any country in any context, the idea of trying to bring together different armed factions is something throughout history that's been very challenging and very delicate, and how one does it and also very controversial and looked at from outside countries and trying to understand exactly what's going on. But also it has the added dimension of you being a lifelong monk who has just recently disrobed. And you're now involved in something related to machines of killing machines that are causing death tools that are causing harm, something very different from your life as a monk. And so if you can tell us what exactly we're doing and how it felt, for you, coming out of monkhood to be doing this, in dealing with and working with these different armed factions and trying to bring them together as part of the resistance. Can you tell us more about that?
Bo Thanmani 14:11
Yeah, I'm organizing the AMS groups means that I'm not a fighter and holding the guns and I've not a fighting, but I'm organizing not to not to have a conflict among the armed crew AMS groups, and I'm organizing to be united among them. So that is my role because yes, I was I was a monk, I'm ex monk. So I never I will tell you I've never been to any any any battle or any fight and just organizing not to be and united among the AMS groups, that is, that is my role. Because the, the letter to me as a leader of, of, of the township, so I need to do that, to be united. That's it. So I understand what the windup the Buddhism, and not to kill any living beings. But on the other hand, I am not not a monk anymore. And that's why I also had this roped, because somehow I will, I am, I'm involved in this, you know, political situation. And also involved in, I am just organizer for the for the different groups, not only arms group, but also many other groups to become together and to be united. That's it. Yeah, thank you.
Host 16:08
So I understand that you're not actually holding a weapon or leading men into battle, but you've been elected into a position as a leader, and so you're respected as a leader. And you have to make leadership positions in very difficult circumstances, and try to bring about unity and order and discipline to different factions that are now armed and might have different aims or ambitions or strategies in terms of what they do. Can you describe a little about some of the difficulties that you faced, what what were the problems that you encountered in trying to bring people together to form a united resistance?
Bo Thanmani 16:48
Yeah, there are many difficulties to be united is also much, much more difficult, I will say much more difficult to take arm and fight, you know, Unity is a power to have this unity. So you need a very you need to be patient, especially trying to be patient, and also I have to teach young people to be patient. And also, you know, I told many groups that they are like, you know, scatter scatter in flowers, that I am ministering to be making beautiful, you know, beautiful flowers. I always say that. So, yes, I was facing the difficulties, especially young people that they wanted to fight, they don't want to accept the regime. Sometimes, young people, not many people that but some people, they have a different point of view. They have a different ideas. They want to have like many weapons, but they are not many weapons. So then they cannot be patient animals and the like that. And also the administration, there are conflicts, or Monday, villagers and the administration leaders, Sunday like that, that there are some small conflicts among the people. Not big complex, but some complex there are so I have to solve these conflicts, and together with the other leaders. Yeah,
Host 18:51
I see that does sound like it's a lot to manage and to figure out, especially in such a dynamic and volatile situation. Did you have any background for the kind of work that you were doing? Obviously, I don't I know that you don't have background in that in that capacity, but in the capacity of a conflict zone and in working with different armed groups. But did you have any background or training in your work as a monk or your travels overseas in organizing different people with complex backgrounds and trying to achieve a common aim that might have helped you in this current work?
Bo Thanmani 19:29
Yeah, first question is, did you have any background for the kinds of organizations you were having to do now? Yes, the background is ug government and ug is a unity. Government national unity government is formed by the CRP H CRP, h is the elected parliamentary members They formed after the after the coop and this crbh group formed the UG. So, n ug is my background and ug is the main Let's see our our government that that we are working together since a month I got a contact with the Legion leaders of a new G and I started to organize some activities like protest and my main my main activity is to, to protest against the military coupe and against the shooting at the people that was my activity as a monk. So, after, you know, one year later, I did not do any activities. And then I was a Hidin and in the forest nearly one year, so I did not go out, I did not meet with many people. But then I on the other hand, I sent the wrong message to the regime that I went to a foreign country like India, so that they do not put pressure on the villagers, or on the area where I was living, where I'm living. So it's it's so much easier. So right now because I already disrobed. So steer the military personnel as they are searching me as a monk, I think. Yeah, that is a tricky way that I'm doing.
Host 22:05
Right. Thank you for that background and in terms of how you learned how to organize very complex and changing situations, how did you go about that? How did you manage that? How did you attempt to try to bring people together and resolve difficulties and tensions and misunderstandings in such a high stakes environment?
Bo Thanmani 22:28
So how did you learn how to resolve differences and walk towards a reconciliation with when the different groups wanted different things? Yeah, that is good question that. You know, I'm, I was I was a monk. So I learned a lot of Buddhist teachings, I'm using some method of the Buddhist teachings, very simple is that I, I use the power of JMeter that's the JMeter near the middle of power is very powerful methods to solve the differences to you know, to have different views. So, I said not to forget the metta loving kindness, the base on the middle, we must work together. So, that is my main RSA main tool to solve the problems. So, that is reconciliation also, how to do regular reconciliation also the saying that I use a lot of you know, methods from Buddhist teaching and also I like very much your reading books. So, I used some method from the different leaders and methods and I like very much the leader of Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew and also I like very much from Vienna, Vienna, Lita, the whole Chi Minh and I like very much Nelson Mandela. So, different leaders. So, I sometimes I used their methods also hone the soul to the problems. So, yeah, different so many different methods are used. But the main point is that you know, it's the main point is not to To be angry, every situation so, so, that that is very important to anger management. So, both sides I have to manage to reduce anger to manage anger. And I myself also realized that I have to do also my mindset to manage my anger. So, manga anger is the main point of the main point of the not to be united JMeter is the point to be united. So, that is the anger management and JMeter power. So, these methods are used are used for for the AMS groups and also local leaders. Yeah, right.
Host 26:02
Thanks for that. And I appreciate the mental challenges of trying to overcome anger and also work to have metta and I was interested to hear that you're reading books that talk about you know, like Nelson Mandela and no Chi Minh and Lee Kuan Yew, I'm wondering if you can give us some more specific examples or even just one example of what you've learned about the leadership style or strategy of these type of figures that you've applied yourself in this position. So,
Bo Thanmani 26:33
firstly, Nelson Mandela is the master of Master of you know, fight fighter master of a fighter against discrimination. So, apartheid. So, he was fighting against apartheid. So, also I used his method not to have discriminate among the people among the different groups.
So, that is also very important, all the different groups to come together not to not to look down on others, that is very important. And hajiman or ciments mother is a very symbol that he lives a very simple life. And I also told my young people not to be proud to much and to humble themselves, the humble is Haji means methods. And also he means method also that organizations and people to find the to fight the regime and Lee Kuan use, we can use method is that to educate people, education is a very important what he said is that, if you want to know whether he is good or bad, just give money and power what he said to Lee Kuan Yew. So, you know, I found that some people they have a money and they have a power and they change their mind I found. So I told people not to change their mind because of money and because of power. You know, sometimes group they have, you know, guns and they started to change their mind. So I found those people, so I told them not to, not to do like that. Yeah, some I can, some I cannot. So that's I have to face the problems.
Host 29:01
As a Buddhist monk, you said when we talked that you took care, never to harm any living being that was something very central to your practice and beliefs and ethics systems. So can you share how it was that you followed this precept? Also, I'm just thinking, you know, there's so many insects and Myanmar, how does one avoid living a life that does that aren't harm harming all those insects that are all around just something mundane like that? And how else did you try to abide by this precept? Anything else you want to share with that, as
Bo Thanmani 29:34
a Buddhist monk, not to harm other living beings? is not difficult, I will say. Because not to harm means trying to cultivate compassion or loving kindness. There This is also very important teachings, teachings of the Buddha. That's why I like very much that precepts. Yes, there are many insects in Burma, especially mosquitoes. But I can try not to not to harm because I use mosquito nets. And where I'm living also not so not so many insects or mosquitoes. That's why it is also not difficult to follow this precept. Yeah, this precept, it is very important to practice not only Buddhists, but also also other religious followers or other people, because it is based on kindness, compassion, loving kindness. That's why not to harm others means the beginning of peace, for animals for also human beings, that is important precept. And I read one scene from internet that is also very good, that is. That is about kindness. That is kindness makes us the most beautiful person in the world, no matter how you look like, there is good. Say. That means if everybody is Chi that is making beautiful, if everybody is kind that is peaceful. That's why it is very important. To practice kindness. To practice, kindness is means not to harm others. And just to give to share, love and kindness, love, kindness, that is the beginning of a peace of the world.
Host 32:12
Right? Can you take some time and talk a bit about your meditation practice? I think you said you follow Mahasi to
Bo Thanmani 32:21
talk about meditation, I have learned both moko meditation and meditation method and I'm Ha see meditation method. I like both but I prefer Mahasi because it is more practical. And I like it very much concentrating on breathe in breathe out. And also every movements to concentrate on the song I like very much and I learned that is the method that to control my mind, it is not like controlling but by knowing your mind, your mindset that What are you thinking about? And that you have to concentrate on it. And also, yeah, that is also that you are your body is like your home always used to come back. They usually the mind is going from place to place by concentrate on on how you're thinking or if you have no thoughts, then you have to concentrate on breathe in breathe out. And that is combination of body and mind. And and because your mind is not going away, and then you got the rest. You feel peaceful in inside yourself. That's why I like very much Mahasi and another one that I like very much is also midterm meditation. With that meditation is firstly, you have to say yourself that may I be well and happy May I be peaceful. May I be free from dangers Where is sadness, fears, anger, hatred, aggression and all sufferings? Firstly, USA and secondly, your friends. When you are your village, your your town, your country and then your worlds and then the universe's universe, the whole universe you have to send firstly, the center is a you With that, if you are peaceful, if you sent your peace of mind to all over the world and then you are the center, if you are peaceful, then the whole the whole means your surrounding will be peaceful. And this is why also I like very much metta meditation and also there is also a good method to handle your anger. Yeah, that I do both Mahasi meditation method and metta meditation
Host 35:36
drawing then upon your past meditation experiences, can you describe why you decided to take those peace walks described to us what are those peace walks, what did you do with them? Where did you do them? And what was the overall purpose and how would you say that related to your life as a Buddhist monk,
Bo Thanmani 35:55
I decided to do a peace walk to show the situations in Burma when I started to be swore it was in it was in Germany, I was in Germany, and I started to from Cologne to Berlin. Normally highway is around about 600 kilometers, but I can't walk from highways. So, I have to walk from the forest. So that about around about 1000 Kilometer I walked I I walked because I want to show the situations in Burma, that is a main purpose and what I see is that the world is not peaceful until today, you know, to do lack of leadership of United Nations today is a very, very chaotic situation in Burma and around the world. So, to show this situation, I did the peace walk. And on the other hand, I liked very much the non violence non violence idea or non violence actions that is a peaceful and that is also related to as a Buddhist monk nonviolent action to do that is peaceful way to walk and the walk in is that is also good health. And also I can see many villages and many cities many towns on the way. First I did in Germany from Cologne to Berlin. Secondly, I did from Bangkok to mess out that is also roundabout 700 kilometers then I walked from New York to Washington DC in United States. So I did three times a long walk. Yeah, that is peace walk. That is a non violence action. Yeah, the walk in USA was very, at the beginning very difficult. Because I don't have many followers. only just beginning. I started in front of the United Nations. From there, some people walked together. But later, nobody together. I was walking alone. And I could not cross you know, tunnel. So I have to walk other round from Washington Bridge. The first night I had no place to sleep. So I was sleeping in the park. The next day, I wanted to sleep in the park. But luckily a couple from Brazil helped me to sleep. And yes, I was asleep in the second night at Salvation Army from next day summary from a New Yorker by Macy sports to stay at mortal every night. So I want to walk in like two weeks and USA, and many people were interested in our action. And yeah, on the way some cities, some of peace lovers they walked together. Finally in Washington DC, some Burmese joined also. And we finished in front of a Burmese embassy and Washington DC. The Balkan in Germany was a great I studied from dome, you know, the cutter, the church, the famous church, from Cologne. And since the beginning, many people joined walk together. I remember that one lady. She's my friend told me to go back on the first day, she said that Berlin is so far to walk is not late yet that you can decide now to go back. And I said, I will walk on as so long as my life. So long as I'm at sea life. I will go on. So I was walking the first day, the second day that thought they were very painful. My feet were very painful. But I have decided I want to reach my aim. That aim is a brung and boy tour, and in Berlin. So it was it was quite interesting. From behind my friends were organizing to meet some mayors and the cities. So they they walked also together on the organized meetings, where the local people it was good. And also I got a media attention that many newspapers, wrote about my walk, and also about Burma. So yeah, my main purpose is to make awareness of the situation in Burma in Thailand started in front of a Burmese Embassy in Bangkok. First day, mini Burmese joint and pray together, we decided to meet our meditation there. And simple is came to but they didn't make any problem. And one novice and one monk and one young man followed along the way. On the way many time police Secret Service, they followed us and they have dubs to find food and also to find shelter, where to sleep. So they will have been on the way it was quite good on the way but finally, before we reach mess off some soldiers they were trying to stopped and you know, it was not easy. Around about 10 kilometers away from Mossad. So we were forced to stop our walk. Especially Thai Army. It was 2007 because of Burmese regime that I generate tension is a regime where we're trying to put pressure on sighing government so that's why entire army trying was it was trying to stop us. But anyway, we were walking finally a novice and a monk a young while the three were arrested by the Thai lady and I was walking and I myself also was arrested by Thai Army I was I was in the Thai Army and then they were they told me to stop and then and Yeah, finally I was sent back to Bangkok. Yeah, it was very excited time. I could not finish just five kilometres We, my destination to reach from face to face deliveries from miss out. Yeah, I cannot finish. But to those 2009, I went back again to Thailand and I finished with many people together. Yeah, I finished after two years later. You
Host 45:21
know, it also seems from hearing you that part of your purpose was to raise attention to the democracy movement in Burma to do these walks. So first, I just want to know, is that right? But then, you know, it also seems sad to me that you have to take such an action to go on these walks, because the world really isn't paying attention. This is what you're trying to do to make them care to make them notice what's going on? Yes,
Bo Thanmani 45:46
that's right, that I wanted to make awareness of the bombers situation. You know, my country was so long. So long regime, a military regime, since when I was born, and the region and Burma, and it was only a short time and democratic system Burma. Yes. The I wanted to make awareness of our civil democracy movement. Yeah, it's dead today that the world's is not really enough attention yet. We feel that our country is ignored and do nothing. Especially United Nations, even our country is a part of the United Nation, a part of the United Nations a member of the United Nations. But still, we we got no help. And I feel, you know, we are headless. The justice is where I don't see real logistics in the world, the beginning of the United Nations, and the formation of the United Nations is to have not to have been any war in the world, but still today that the wars, civil wars in Burma, civil wars everywhere. And invasion. From Russia to Ukraine's, so many things are happening. And is the question now today? Why four United Nations for what is the United Nations? What is the role of the United Nations? This is the week next of the hill, the world's top leading organization is is not function? Well, I want to say. What I want to say is that the United Nations, it's, it's also not democratically formed, especially because of the veto power, you know, there are five countries that the they own veto power, the own view, veto power means that they can do whatever they want. For example, the highest the highest power in the United Nations is the Security Council and the Security Council, there are 50 members, you if for 14 countries were vote yes, but only one country will say no, then that country who says no well, when because that country has as a veto power. So, that is a very anti democratic system. So, even United Nations itself has no democracy, where is the real democracy and especially in our Asia, that real democratic country, real remote kradic country we can find as not real pure democratic country we can we can find in Asia. But yes, in Europe, there are many countries I like very much European system and helping each other but our our Asia, our neighboring countries. We they don't share their democratic system because they Dhindsa also no real democracy like India, China, and Thailand, so many countries, they are not really democratic country. So that's why we are suffering. And hopefully sooner or later that Asia will be free. And people will be will be open minded or start to think of not only for oneself, but also for many, hopefully, and the future. You
Host 50:36
talked about the United Nations for some length, but how about also the media, foreign governments, international organizations, foreigners, foreign people in general, Myanmar has been struggling for help with establishing human rights for many generations. 7075 years, you can say going back to the post independence area and the the initial coup, and it continues to be ignored, really. So as wonderful as it was to take these walks that bring awareness there's also something there for me, that seems kind of sad, you had to do it, that people just aren't paying attention. So can you speak to that, after
Bo Thanmani 51:13
the military coupe 2021 First, February, we got a media attention around the world, not only in bombers, but everywhere around the world. And foreign governments, international organizations, they support our movement, the at the beginning, the people in Burma, they were protesting peacefully, you know, almost everybody around the country. They participated our peaceful protests but Saturday the regime reacted by shooting at people there are many people are dying to who are no sets. And that's why the, you know, the AMS groups everywhere around the country to a marched and started a fight against the regime. And some foreign people, they support our movement. Yeah, it's very difficult and our situation even we tried to raise awareness, but it's very difficult because of the Ukraine, Russia case. The that is more influenced than our our Myanmar issue. And, you know, nowadays, you can hear everywhere the crisis between Ukraine and Russia, almost almost not media around the world, they don't describe our situation. So that's why it is difficult right now to raise awareness. From media all around the world. Yeah, that is a very sad situation. What is happening in the world?
Host 53:23
Can you describe how you felt after the coup? What did you initially do? And you have been engaging in these non violent activities and peace marches all your life? Did you look to do something like this after the coup as well,
Bo Thanmani 53:36
the first day, I didn't recognize that there was coop because I'm living in the countryside in my village. And you know, every morning when I wake up, I used to go to toilet and the toilet I read the news suddenly I could not use my internet and you know, there is no signal animal all the internet lines formalized cut off when the RE by the regime on that day. I didn't know you know, it was I thought it was the my main telephone. My telephone is something wrong, I thought. So I was restarting again and again and again and my telephone and then I recognized that Sunday's round and later around about nine o'clock. I didn't know exactly you know, I didn't watch news. I do. Listen to radio, so I didn't know that I went to Nia MO You Are there people told me about the coop everywhere people were very sad you know some people were very very upset and very disappointed. I saw an amazed sir was also this very disappointed. But in the evening I got back the entered telephone lines, I could call. Yeah, the first day was like, really, you know, the war is end. It was like in the darkness in our country. We didn't know what to do the first day, second day, but while we could later on seventh, people started to protest in Moya, and I joined there. On eighth Oz, I joined but on Ninth I could not go to more yoga, but I was gathering and our sight because more you're between more yoga and our township, there is a big red bar, you know, Chindwin river, so I could not, we could not cross the bridge. So we were protesting near the bridge nearly a month. You know, soldiers and a police, they were waiting there, but they didn't do anything. After one month later, shooting started everywhere in Myanmar. And we were very disappointed on trennis 28th of March. Not February 28. On February, I went to Moya, and protested. And I came back. But on the eighth, I had that very bad news that my very good friend, she is a teacher, she was shot and dead on the thought of a match. And so I was very upset. You know, we I tried many, many things, to protest peacefully. And then, because of a shoot, we're like, we're like that is buying protests and not violent way, it is impossible to change the country. So we wanted to finish up this military regime. So the young people, they started to do, you know, some weapons and started to fight. Yeah, so that's, that's the beginning of the fighting against the regime, you know, they did not respond, why we were protesting to peacefully if they would respond response, by peaceful means, I mean, by discussing together with the, with the leaders of protesters, that will be the solution for the regime, so many people will not die and will not happen like this chaotic situation. You know, non is very difficult to stops, you know, the Yemeni people already dying, the more than 3000 people already dying, and many soldiers from the region side also die. And so, you know, in these situations, no, no, no, no big organizations around the world that they are not involved in, including the United Nations not really actively involved in to solve this problem. That is a very sad situation. So that's why I feel fed up to the United Nations. And actually, I don't have any help from the United Nations United Nations is also very weak, weak leadership is the main problem of our world. Know, when we protested, and some donors, they donated the food for the protesters, but we also gave the soldiers we also give the police and they were very happy, you know, both sides were very happy because of our non violent engagement. Here we did like this like to show our our love to them. And at the beginning, you know, we had no problem and also the soldiers also the trying to handle peacefully, our protests later because of the the order from they are they are, you know, generous or you know, they are high official leaders, they could not deny and to shoot at the people. So, then everything changed. We can do anything, we could not do anything. And then, you know, the soldiers started to shoot at the people. We were very, very sad, we could not do, we couldn't do anything at the time. But, you know, stay today, some places protesting. But I want to do also again that, you know, all people to come together and protest again. What I believe is that, you know, power is like a hot hardware. And, you know, people's power, like protesting demonstrating is like software, you know, Soft power is in people's power and hard powers. Hearts power is like weapons, you know. And so, if we wisely, if we can use wisely these two, two powers, you know, soft power and hard power, then I believe that sooner or later our revolution will be over, you
Host 1:01:16
talk about hard power and soft power complementing each other. Did you always believe that? Did you always see a beneficial role that hard power could play? Or is this new? And I also would like to know, did you build did you use to believe that soft power, you know, an example of that being like nonviolent and the nonviolent movement? Did you used to believe that soft power was enough? What led to you changing the way that you looked at this dynamic before
Bo Thanmani 1:01:43
I believe, always, always non violent is powerful. And I believe that non violence with can change peacefully, because I like peace very much. But the idea that compliment and hard power and soft power is, after the military coupe that, you know, people were protesting peacefully, but suddenly the region react, it's all shot, get shots, that innocent people, that's why I started think that not violent alone is is not really function and is not enough. So then I started thinking, we need a hot power. And that is also I was thinking of computer, you know, or telephones, the, you know, nowadays that the computer hardware alone doesn't work. So to work, you have to install the software, the same, the telephone, hardware alone is not a not a walk. So you need a software. So that's saying that, to complement the the situation and political change in we need a we need a both soft power and hard power, the People's Power and, you know, the answer power. This is not I will say this is not a new idea. But I was thinking, you know, logically when we are living in our, you know, technology, technological age, that we're using computers. You know, that's why I believe that both if we can work or use properly, or wisely then then we can we can change our country.
Host 1:04:11
You know, it's one thing to support the idea of hard power. And it's another thing altogether to take part directly in an action that contributes to the exercise of hard power. Can you share your decision to disrobe and join the armed movement after a lifetime of non violence? Just talk us through that?
Bo Thanmani 1:04:30
Yes, it's a very difficult question to answer. So it's take time to think the idea of hard power is just because of the reaction of the military regime, you know, throughout the country after the military group, peacefully protesting and gathering everywhere around the country. That had suddenly, unexpectedly that the regime or the military personnel they shot that innocent people, that is the beginning of the idea of the heart power, you know, because the military regime ridging doesn't understand the word of non violence, the actions of non violence, that is the beginning of the idea of the hard power. And that's why we, the people started to think it doesn't. It's not enough, or it isn't not enough only, you know, novelists that we have to think about it to understand the regime, that we the people have a power to react against the violence. So we believe that we have a we have a responsibility to protect the people. If the elimination of organizations such as United Nations doesn't protect the people, then we people must protect ourselves. That's the, the decision of directly to, to, to to participate, and hard power. So because of this decision, I thought it is not a good to be a monk, because a monk and or, you know, the the the, the an ounce or weapons, it's not a fit, that's why I have decided to do this rope. And even I decided to disrobe and I have never participated or I've never hold a gun and, but these bladed Annie paddles, so just I was trying to, to come together all the schools and non violence groups and, and I've been trying to take the leadership of all the different groups. And that's that is my role. But see, I believe the power of non violence. And I believe that one day, we need to do the non violence action that is to come all people together and to protest again, against the military action. I didn't find any hardest part of my decision. But one thing that I I really I really don't want to do is that you know, I don't like I don't like really, violence is, you know, I don't like brutality, I don't like killing each other actually. Because I, I like Buddha's teachings, you know, kindness, compassion, metta, that is my, my belief, you know, I was, I was a monk and I studied a lot of the Buddhist teachings and his teachings are in my mind and my body, the whole body. So, the arms struggle is is against the Buddha's Buddha's teachings, on the other hand, and there is a bit difficult for me to take about this role of struggle, but still, I believe in non violence and in the future, I want to do more actions, actions with non violence such as protesting together in you know, I believe in people's power. So I will go on this way. So step by step I want to step back of the arms struggle. And some people who believe in this struggle, they will go on their own way. You know, and I want to go on my own way, my own way is to non violence. And by I'm believe in the non violence,
Host 1:10:16
I understand that you believe in non violence, but you did eventually decide to support the armed struggle. Is that correct? Or am I mistaken? Yes, I
Bo Thanmani 1:10:25
believe in non violence. I still believe in non violence. And I will believe in the future too. I want to, I want to do some activities, like gathering people and protesting peacefully. You know, I think these are very powerful. And I want to do in the future, I think, um, struggle alone doesn't work, you know, to change the political situation in Burma. But buying, protesting and, or using non violence ways that that can be faster, that we can show our people's power, you know, that we don't serve to the military regime. So if we can do these bolt together, then you know, they've already changed Well walk out. Yeah. I'm trying to organize or to some meetings to meet together some some groups who you know, who PDF, the PDF means people's Defense Force, officially the name from your new G, the national unity government, our design government, our revolutionary government form to this AMS groups. So I am trying and those groups to come together and not to, you know, not to be divided. And not to be and unite it. That is, my, my God, my position. Actually, I have no position in the arms groups, and I don't have just, I'm the organizer. So that's why you can say that I'm in support of these groups. But I never participated. Any battles. Any findings?
Host 1:12:50
My next question would be can you describe how you have been supporting the armed struggle even though you say you haven't personally picked up a gun yourself?
Bo Thanmani 1:12:59
So that question is also very, for me difficult to answer. But actually, I am supporting I've been supporting the struggles by finding foods for the young fighters and also shelters for them. And also I have to sponsor some trainings for them for the trainings what they need. Also like food and medicine whatever you know, that is a my my my my God and I am an up in them Yeah, medical care, whatever. So that is my my my God, that I'm helping. Yes, as far as Is it safe for me an hour a span to my activities and responsibilities Yes, right now I feel that our place is safe and not so dangerous, accepts air strike. You know, jet fighters sometimes apply in tech in and helicopters fly in and tech in without them. I feel safe. And I sent just now the report about the the new projects the project is the revolution university. The university of our volition is the young people who have who have a hopeless who are hopeless. And because of the current situation and Varma, the students they don't know where to continue their education, especially university level, because the scale to go to the the militaries University and mostly are closed, and they are afraid to go there. So for those children, and I want to give you a give them hope, the hub is the future. And the hub is this revolution University. The idea is that we also want to fight against the, you know, the university systems, especially that the students have no freedom. Students cannot discuss freely, this university will be more freedom, and the students if they have a new idea they can create. So that is our dream. And, you know, this is what I'm doing right now currently, for the future. Education. Right.
Host 1:16:28
So, the question I want to ask next, the area I want to navigate and move this conversation into, which is a bit sensitive and controversial. There might be some listeners that saw some version of this story, as it was reported, there might be other listeners who don't really have any idea what it is we're talking about, we'll get into this episode in a bit more detail. I think also, we've learned enough both m&e about your background and how you came to this point and the decisions you made that we can now explain and discuss this incident in a bit more context from your own background. The incident I'm talking about is that you became involved in a controversy that was involving tensions with other PDF groups. This included an accusation of receiving weapons from the N ug that weren't being shared with them, as well as a much more serious charge that there were members of other PDF groups that were executed on suspicion of conspiring with the military and being military sympathizers. So, can you start, please take your time describe in detail your side of the story, what unfolded and and what exactly this episode was for those listeners who have not heard this before,
Bo Thanmani 1:17:55
you know, there there is, let's say there is quite normal during the conflicts that the PDF groups among the PDF groups, they have conflict, it is because of the misunderstanding. And now, we tried to you know, discuss together in our township, that we had some problems among the different groups, you know, the problem is the PDF groups, there are many different names and different lager groups. So, among them, they have some problems, but not really a big problem that we try to solve together. And especially, that we PDF groups, not to not to use any violence if we saw the problem. Yeah, there is main point. And there are also some times she just said, the PDFs groups, they have problems. Yeah. And the PDFs are known, like real army, you know, the they have the uniforms, but run the military side, they are scary to to wear their uniforms, because they don't trust themselves. And they are also I think, scary of the PDS so that would be that would be very scary for the for the military. And, yeah, some PDF groups they got weapons from the AUG. And sometimes it is also difficult to share because they don't have enough enough guns. But am I point I am the member of the administration. So, we are trying to sow some problems and find out the ways to overcome some difficulties. That is, in my mind, my my main point usually, I don't go to the battlefields just I tried to come together all the groups and to be united. That is my main point to be united all the groups. Right
Host 1:20:56
understood and concerning this particular incident that happened last year, Voice of America called this quote the first confirm massacre by a PDF group and quote, and there was some real concern among those in the international community as well as within the movement, that this was a sign that there was a lack of discipline and a growing violence and unruliness among those in the resistance forces. So I think it's really important that we go back and understand what exactly happened with the not just the the weaponry that wasn't shared, the much more serious charge that there were, that there was an abduction, and torturing and eventually killing of, I believe it was 10 people that were accused of military sympathizers, which other PDF groups had protested and said, Actually amounted to a war crime that it was that that these were members of their groups. So can you tell us from your side, what exactly happened?
Bo Thanmani 1:22:07
It tapped into last? $2.21 Yeah, it happened in em of internship, my internship, that four people were arrested, because they were they were the military supporters, you know, they have a suspicion because of the ISD working for military that I saw and they were arrested. And at that time, other people, other relatives, the trying to negotiate and trying to release them, but unfortunately, because of one group is called CS and group CS and group is is is also a PDF group. So the quarreled and they were, like, you know, like, obviously, the the the mid understood, and, and then CSN group were very, very, very angry. And then, and they started, you know, the standard excluded these four people, plus six people were the religious of the four suspicious, suspicious military supporters. Yeah, that that it was like 2021, but the AUG trying to form as Investigation Commission committee that they investigated, and they found out who was a real real crime, criminal, and then the knowledge the energy and knowledge the who will commit it and and or to not to use any weapons or not to hold any weapons that it was does in one situation. I understand that the Indonesian Indonesian families that the worry about Myanmar, but compared to other countries, so and our country, mostly, not serious cases have not serious cases happened. I'm in this Tim people. Murder Case was sold by the N ug and by the code of annuity and already announced and already punished this person. So, yeah, but but I think this is a user that among the AMS groups happened and this case that the we need to also support from the United Nations to, to come to our, for example, our leverage areas into how the situation and you know, that is our expectation, but it's as long as that the the United Nations has no, no action or United Nations has no plan to take action, then such cases will happen. We we as a member of the United Nations, we expect that the UN Well, we UN will involve such cases. Yeah. That is our expectation from UN.
Host 1:26:25
Certainly, yeah. Looking into the execution of these 10 individuals, who was far as you can share, and tell who in terms of organization name and individual name, was responsible for the ultimate decision to take their life
Bo Thanmani 1:26:46
in the name of the organization is the CRC and group. It's called CRC, CRC and army, you know? Yeah, his name is also is also CRC. CRC is the leaders name. And the end Yugi. Immediately after the investigation, they announced that this person is a real murderer. And the AUG said he is he's in his normal, normal, normal PDF, that he cannot be PDF, something like that. But that there is not real, like a coach, you know, military code to to punish him. But only then that he can do is that he is a normal PDF member.
Host 1:27:53
I guess I'm confused to hear that because in the research that I did before the interview and the articles that I read describing this incident, I at least those articles in English, they did not reference anything about the CSN group. They referenced your Yemen people's Defence Force and your name in conjunction with this killing and that there's one article I read where I believe you personally took responsibility for being part of this act that happened and we're, we're welcoming consequences if those were determined for whatever part you had in it. So to clarify, can you tell us as again, as far as as a safe and you feel comfortable? Can you tell us the involvement in this incident both with the human personal people's defense force as well as you personally?
Bo Thanmani 1:28:50
It was a you know, it was attacked by another group, that he, he was my How to say, one of my members, and he wanted to be let's say he wanted to be a famous person by attacking Buddha money. He gave me a master this the, you know, fake accusation, not real, that he wanted to. He wanted to defame me, and he wanted to be great to one. I think you may know that his name is Bonaga owner is Mr. dragger. He is from another Township, our friend our district, but he is from Palais Township. So he is the one. He is the act user is the The master planner to two core Buddha money as a martyr, you know, that it was a fake. And you see when you say fake accusation, and that's why Aug investigated, and they found that I have no guilty. Yeah there is an announcement from a new G official announcement that I have no guilty. So
Host 1:30:25
just to clarify in this discussion, are you then confirming that you personally as well as your group had absolutely no involvement in any sense with this killing of 10 people that took place?
Bo Thanmani 1:30:40
No, totally not. We are not involved. No, I, I never ordered or I never ordered someone to kill them. Never. I can swear that.
Host 1:31:00
I see. And were you aware of what was happening as it was going on in real time? Or did you only learn about what happened afterwards? In other words, were you were you aware that these people had been apprehended and that there was the threats of killing taking place? And you were in the area and hearing about what happened? Or were you completely disassociated from that event, and you only heard about everything once it happened, and you weren't at all involved or aware as it was happening? afterwards?
Bo Thanmani 1:31:34
I knew, I found out that it already happened. So it was too late. So that's why i i made the announcement or statement that after two days later, it was the 29th of November, you know, I condemned this kind of this kind of acts, and then also ordered not to kill like this before, like this in the future. And yeah, even if even some how to say some tourism, soldiers, and police, they would be arrested and not to kill. So I made an strongly Nasmyth and 2021 I
Host 1:32:38
see. So to clarify, again, you're saying that you did not know that this killing of 10 people even took place until after it happened, you had no idea that these people were actually abducted until after they were already killed? No,
Bo Thanmani 1:32:56
I didn't know that. That's
Host 1:32:57
really interesting. That's That's news. To me. I'm learning that just and I'm just trying to process and understand that even in the context of this conversation, because it's just confusing that when this incident was reported, you were the center at least in the English language articles I read which are much fewer than the Burmese online space and Burmese media but from what I was reading and hearing in English, it was it was always centered on you and your group that you have among peoples defense force that was at the center of this accusation. So the fact that you're not the central figure involved not not only that but you're actually from what you're saying there's no involvement whatsoever you didn't even learn of what happened until after it took place. This is really diametrically opposed to everything I was reading about this incident
Bo Thanmani 1:33:53
Yeah. I I will tell you that at the time I was very upset and very disappointed the media you know, the media is only only one sided that the interview Mr. Drag on who is accuser so they the media use his voice more than my voice and they don't want to listen to me. So some IV IV Farah with the media you know, the media is only one sided. So I have no chance to explain and I tried to contact some media, you know some media's they also contact me, but other side is very strong and stronger than my site. So the forest English Language Media Center says the writer, the translation of a Burmese, so they don't directly interview me, you know, they don't directly call me like you, you know, you, you want to know really what is happening. And then you tried to call me and you want to call him clarify and but they don't do. That's why and because of media that I am the mother of these 10 people. Actually I tell you, actually, I tell you, I didn't know, I knew it after hours, say two days later. And, and I can swear that I never kill, you know, I it is not, it is not my way to kill someone. It is not my way that I am the strongly believer of non violence. See, I'm believing that. And I also believe in Buddha's mid power, you know, mid power, loving kindness power. See, I believe in that. And because of this, I can swear that I never order. And I won't order anyone to kill.
Host 1:36:19
Right? Understood so. So just to clarify one more point, just so I really make sure I understand you. You swore and you made what's in, in Buddhist terms called the vow of truth where you you have stated a truth regarding your faith or practice within Buddhist teachings. And then on the power of that truth, you've made a statement to a for affirming your actions, and asked to be believed based on that. So I understand that I just want to clarify one technical thing. You have said by this vow of truth, you have never committed an act of violence you have you have never taken a human life. Technically speaking, I understand that you haven't taken a human life. Have you been involved in a decision where a human life has been taken at your orders? Or at your instruction, even though you haven't personally taken part in that
Bo Thanmani 1:37:23
human that I am I involved? I important, someone take his life.
Host 1:37:31
Right, you might not have done the action, but you gave the instruction or the order that someone else committed the action?
Bo Thanmani 1:37:39
I never, I haven't never done that.
Host 1:37:43
So looking at your wider role and position as a leader in the resistance, excuse me for being naive, but I'm curious to know, how do you manage to run a resistance against a brutal military, when you are not personally taking life and you are also not ordering? That those on the ground are taking lives at at your command? When you're in the midst of a bloody and terrible conflict? How does one avoid committing violence in such a scenario?
Bo Thanmani 1:38:21
I so know, as I told you, that I am the the the one of the members of the administration. So the organizing, military case, our military issue, that one, one of my assistants, he is organizing all the such protection, the protection the area or, you know, some mission to organize. And that is his his duty, and he's my assistant manager. So he is organized in that usually I organize for example, if someone is hard, if someone is wounded and then I have to support I have to support for the some money or if someone for example, from PDF members would pass away would be shot and dead and then I have to donate some money for this person. So that is my my, my my my duty. So of course sometimes if they ask me the permission of the shooting, then I have to give the permission that's it's actually yes, we have to protect our area. So that's why sometimes I have to give the permission because it
Host 1:39:58
can you Say more about this permission of shooting the questions. I'm wondering, first of all, what are the guidelines that determine the protocols for when permission to shooting is given and when it's denied? And what is your role your authority in being the person that people come to that request permission to shoot?
Bo Thanmani 1:40:26
And the requests is that, you know, that our area that is under our control, if the military would come, and they they confront with the military, and usually, you know, and all the all the PDF members, they see this military passengers that the started to have battle. Strategy have a battle. It is avoidable. It happened. You know, usually if they if they, it was just beginning that they asked me permission, yeah. And later, because I find it binded, my resist my assistants manager. So he organized everything. So I don't need to say whether I'm permitted or not, whether I give permission or not. It is not. It is not my role. So only at the beginning.
Host 1:41:45
Right. I'm also just pausing here, because I'm thinking of your caricature in the media and a couple of ways. One thought that comes to mind is that whenever this incident of the killing of these 10 People is brought up, you're always the name associated with that it's all well, you're you're the kind of linchpin and representative of this act taking place. This is closely associated with you, and you're closely associated with this incident. And this incident itself has taken on these important undertones, as being this example, that well, both sides are doing this and look at look at what the resistance is doing. And this is getting messy. And this is devolving into violence, just taking these greater shapes and forms. And so it's come to the incident itself has come to represent a danger of the lack of discipline of the PDF forces, and you have been the person most associated with that incident taking place. You're often described, at least in English media that I've read, you're often described as a monastic turned warlord or a monastic term PDF fighter. And when you referenced how media hasn't sought you out to talk with you, you know, it's interesting because when it was suggested by a mutual friend, that we connect with each other, I was also very hesitant I'll just be honest, because I had read everything that there was to read at least in English and talk to people that were in country and I wasn't really sure what to expect and as I got a bit deeper into understanding your story, which by now we've also shared with our listeners, your background, I saw that there was a lot more there I was curious and just being able to hear your side of the incident I was not expecting what I heard I was not expecting that your your claim that you simply had no involvement of any kind whatsoever in this and you're telling that you were completely framed in this. I thought it was a he said he said kind of thing that you had a different view or understanding on it. But you're telling me something very different that you were simply not involved at all. So I guess my question is, what is it like to have the stain What is it like to have this characterization that this incident and everything it represents? It's an A very important incident that happened since the coup it's one that's referenced in all kinds of articles and, and discussions of this taking place and you're the one most associated with with this incident happening? It's
Bo Thanmani 1:44:37
just accusation, you know, already already finished. And I, I tell you that I believe in Buddha's teaching, so what it's teaching is always impermanent. So accusation is also impermanent. I don't know whether the Indonesian media or Indonesian we Here's the really belief or not that I am the murderer of these 10 people. But I tell you, I can swear. And I never order or I never sell summary to kill. So that's why I'll just say that it is already I, what I what I what I believe is that already haven't already finished. And I know it's not in my order. So and whatever I'm thinking is that in the future, what can I do? What should I do? And I want to go, I want to go on for the future. Because I don't want to live in the past. So pauses already finished. In the optimization, a accusation every wall, and media on Myanmar media, English media, they are, they were talking about me. They were blaming me. They were accusing me that's already finished. So what I want to do, is that what I can do for the future, and I cannot explain to everybody around the world, I can't. But I want to thank you that I have a chance to play from you. To to, to the people who want to know the real situation. And I want to thank you that. Thank you.
Host 1:46:46
Yes, of course. And I have just one more question about this particular incident before we move on to the overall resistance. You had referenced that it was this CSN group. That was actually the ones responsible for what take place. What took place with this killing? I believe you touched on this before, if you can expand on this relationship, what, what was your connection to the members of the CSN group? And do you think that whatever connection was there, do you think that there might have been a misunderstanding on the part of others on the ground or in the media that whatever your association was with the CSM group that perhaps you were lumped in or included with them based on this connection when actually you weren't involved.
Bo Thanmani 1:47:37
So at that time CSM rule was my and my name that they were, they were, they were, how they were involved in the revolution. So as as a leader of this group, at that time, under both the money there were 444 groups that they are, they are working. So CSN group is one of these foes. So as a leader, I had a responsibility for what happens, because he is under my guideline that he is working. So that's why I said I have a responsibility. But I have to, I have to, I have to solve this problem. And people around the world they understood that I am the person who ordered actually, you know, he is a CSM is living very far from me. And actually, he doesn't care of me, really. And he is a former former teacher, he was a teacher before. So a teacher is a little bit stubborn. And he usually decided by himself, you know, he doesn't wait, my order, usually. So that's why in this in this mark is he himself decided and committed by himself. A it did not wait an order from me or it did not discuss with me. And he decided by himself. So that's why people misunderstood in this case.
Host 1:49:41
How do you think things are going generally and the resistance right now is being someone on the ground, the
Bo Thanmani 1:49:47
resistance situation in our area is getting better? I guess he couldn't better and better but other areas or the other stakes Uh, I don't know exactly. But Manley is getting worse. Getting worse. Our area for example, less, less for forces less soldiers compared to other area. And that's why I'm focusing now on the education projects. The idea of the education project is that there are many students that they did not finish their university studies because of COVID-19, and the military coupe, and there are many, many students that they cannot go to go to Montreal or other big cities, but mostly the cities or the universities are not working or not opening. And that's why for this, I am I am so I am building the, the the University of a revolution. So that is also a part of resistance that we want to train students, the political science and other resistance studies, and also medical studies that we want to do. Yeah, so, our area is getting better.
Host 1:51:51
The next question I would like to ask is getting back to looking at Buddhism and obviously, as a former Buddhist monk, this is something that I think you'd have a lot to say. I'm wondering how you think that Buddhism will survive on and Myanmar what form and shape it will take. We've seen this military destroyed monasteries and pagodas. It's killed and arrested monks who do not agree with the regime and the messaging and its own interpretation of Buddhism. At the same time, they've perverted Buddhist teachings by bringing in anti Islam elements combining it with numerology and superstition many young people now in Burma, I've been told they see the Sangha itself as a kind of threat to the progress that they hope to build. So, as a former Buddhist monk, yourself a dedicated follower still of the Buddha's teachings, how do you look at the survival the transformation potentially of Buddhism in Myanmar,
Bo Thanmani 1:52:47
I want to say that the to survive Buddhism in Myanmar is very tough situation or big challenges facing big challenges in Burma. You know, the the belief in Bama on Buddhism is six years ago, it is it is traditional belief. You know, it is difficult to it is difficult to cultivate diba Buddhism and Burma and especially, you know, we bus and the meditation centers are not so many and there are but not many, but compared to other countries, I saw many meditation centers, that they are very strong and very effective, that they are trying Buddhism and Myanmar is weaker and weaker. And you know, it is just traditional belief. You know, to preserve Buddha Buddha's teachings or to survive Buddhism is very important to practice. Without practice, it would not survive, you know, buying, building the Buddha's by building the Buddha images. It is it is not really following the Buddhist teachings is it's not really practicing Buddhist teachings, though. So, if it is difficult to survive in Burma, you know, especially, it is against the Buddhist teachings, such numerology or superstition. It is totally against the Buddha's teachings. That's why what the military is doing is against the Buddha's teachings. They are not real Need to progress Buddha's teaching or to promote Buddhist teaching, it is only that they are destroying not only the monasteries, but also the whole Buddha's Sasada Buddha's teachings. What the Buddha taught is, for example, not to be angry or not to, not to hate others, but what has happened in environment is hate each other, you know, the military does the power, this is power. And then this is the showing of the hatred, but it's in it is totally against the Buddha's teaching. So, it should not be like that. And it is the beginning of all, you know, hatred all around the country. So don't be burr hate the military, people started to fight against the military, because of them, the military leaders who are calling themselves Buddhists, but what they are doing is totally against the Buddha's teachings. So not to hate each other is the number one and, and not to greed, because of greedy mind, the power and they want to be the you know, you know, they want to be the master, but buying, stealing and buying taken power, they will not be marsta forever. And then because of the ignorance number three because of ignorance, and because of ignorance, they do such stupid things, if they're brave enough, if they are bright, if they're intelligent, they won't do such as military cool. So it is shameful thing that they are doing. Because of this, you know, to survive Buddhism is to practice the Buddha's teaching to follow the Buddha's teaching, then the Buddha, the teachings will survive, otherwise is it will, it will disappear. So now later.
Host 1:57:20
Thanks. That's really great. To get your comments on that. I want to follow this up by asking some more specific questions not so much on the theories or beliefs of Burmese Buddhism, but the actual relationships that we're seeing between land Sangha, which are really essential for a Buddhist society to take shape. Before the coup lay people had this kind of trust that supporting monks was both good merit for a future rebirth as well as this reciprocal relationship where they provide food and materials for the monks and the monks support them through their hardships in life and spiritual trainings as well. But we're now seeing for the first time really that I can remember high level monks that are being publicly criticized by laypeople in a way that hasn't happened before in the country. And as some people are losing faith in these pro-military monks, others just feel dismayed by the entire Sangha as they're struggling on their own. And then you have a younger generation who many of whom are starting to see the entire monkhood as this kind of antiquated relic and hearing about the way that the military manipulates Buddhist teachings to support their own rule, much of Gen Z is seeing the Sangha as something that needs to be reformed or perhaps even let go of as they move on with the revolution. So there's definitely these kind of shifting fault lines. And I don't think anyone's really sure where they're going to settle. And so I want to ask you, what do you see as the future of Burmese Buddhism? Do you think that the faith is so strong that whatever hardships might be happening now, things will eventually go back to how they've always been? Or do you think that the actions of the military will significantly and ultimately weaken Buddhism no matter which way this turns out?
Bo Thanmani 1:59:07
To us at this question, I will say that the Burmese they see the monks who is right in the who is round, and the people are in Brahma because of this military coupe, they can see the reality. The reality means that some monks, not many, but some monks are pretending and that the, you know, the like, real great monk or so morally, the, you know, really respected, but because of the military ship military coupe, and they are going together with the military partners and military leaders, and people they see that those monks are let's see. I'm so, so greedy and thinking for themselves, and so selfish, that people will see. So the people see clearly those monks, they don't respect and they don't want animal, those monks. But on the other hand, there are many monks, who will lose support the the revolution was turning from the People's society and in this hardship time, and there are many, many monks. So I was, I would say, because of this military coup, but clearly people see who is right and who is wrong, and who is a right monk who is a wrong monk and etc, we can see in this revolution, because of this, I think, in the future. The monks who are highly respected by the people will take the place, and they will organize more systematically in the country. So that's why I will say, I want to say that I am optimistic because of this and, and the future the Burmese Buddhists and will. Welcome new era. So but those monks who who are not right, especially who are now following who are supporting the military, they were not, they will not have a place for them in the future. So they're high Haidee they are head is over, they will not have a place for them in the future. So that's why I am I will say, in the future, in the country in Myanmar, less monks, but to our right, who really practice amongst will take place and they were, they will be behind and they will be I mean, they will they will exists in this country. So let's monks, but clear, right Max will exist in the country. Thanks,
Host 2:02:29
your answers really helpful and causes me to reflect as well. However, I do find that your response is somewhat positive in thinking that the bad monks and their supporters will just eventually go away. And the good monks and their supporters well remain this is a positive and optimistic outlook, which I certainly hope is the case. But I'm not sure either. My fear is that the perversion and manipulation of Buddhism that's now taking place, well risk losing an entire generation of Burmese Buddhists who simply will not come back. What numbers I'm not sure. But I think that could be some likely result and there will be those that do not want to be monks do not want to support monks do not want to listen to monks or anything else. And so do you have any concerns about the future or the shape of Buddhism and the Sangha and Myanmar to come
Bo Thanmani 2:03:21
and because of Brexit situation, I think, in the future, less less monks and less supporters. But there will be only a pure Buddhists and the monks who really, really, really love Dharma, or who really want to practice meditation. Those monks are well the will remain in the future. So I don't concern that the Burmese Buddhism no will totally disappear from Burma, that you are Buddhists in pure monks, pure separate us were remain in the country like Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka is a Buddhist country, but also a democratic country that there are only a few monks, that they are still practicing meditation practice in Buddhism, and I think in the future, the Buddhists and the Buddhists in Burma will be like in Sri Lanka, that is my future dream. Because of this revolution, we can see who is the right who is round. I mean, who is the right man who is a Roman, etc. We can see that's why people know who Should be really respected and who the people know they can clearly see who is right and who is around and in the future, the right monks and right people, they will go together, they will go hand in hand together. So, I will say that in the future, there will be less monks, but the real practitioners, the real Buddhist monks will remain. And I think in the future, the relationship between monks and monks and laypeople in the world will be better and clearer relationship not only to believe in artificial seeing artificial things, but real insight was seen inside the monks mind. And that's why in the, I think the relationship will be much better and the future right now, and we can to do for this because we have no chance to discuss together and we can meet together or they will lay people on the monks, I think in the future there will be the we better organization. For example, there is a the monks organization Sangha Maha Nya, this is not a rightly formed because the the high level monks are dominated this organization. And these monks are cooperating with the military. That's why we can't, we can't change, we can't form the better organization, I think in the future, there will be better organization. And the letter to max I think, will be well dominated this organization thinks the military group started the whole country protested against the military regime. But really they reacted with reacted with the violence and shooting at people with the snipers. And that's why the people started to take the hands and started revolution. Since that I in the, the new GE government and US government formed a PDF PDF means people's defence force. Now taking control around 70% of the country, especially in our area, like 80%, or 90%, we controlled so we can say that is our successful, that is our successful revolution. We see that in the future, not only the power of arms, but also the power of the people we say that and the hard power and soft power if we can combine together and how powers mass protests, protect the people, save the people and got the people and the people must protest or demonstrate against the region. If we can do again, protesting to demonstrate in with the many people then we can change the country sooner or later. Thank you.
Host 2:09:08
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