Transcript: Episode #204: Ashin Kovida
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Host 0:29
Many longtime listeners know that our podcast platform was initially focused on interviews about the many spiritual paths that Myanmar offers meditators and monastics. But when the coup hit, we couldn't in good conscience continue to tell those stories, with many monastic sites on fire are occupied by soldiers and the Burmese people living under the military's Reign of Terror. So we expanded our mission to cover a wider range of post coup Myanmar stories. Still, some guests have a unique insight into both the intersection of the spiritual with the worldly allowing a deeper understanding of both planes. Today's guests squarely fits in that category as you will soon hear let's get to that interview now.
1:09
Get a stand up Stand up for your good stand up don't give up the fight
1:27
was sick and tired of you is excused from gain done go to heaven and Jesus name we know when we understand Almighty God is live in man you can fool some people sometimes but you can't fool all the people all the time. Now we see the light we're gonna stand up for
Host 3:00
I'd like to welcome Ashin Kovida to join us for this conversation monta thank you for taking the time to talk to us,
Ashin Kovida 3:07
and very happy. Thank you very much for having me for your interview. Yeah,
Host 3:13
I'd like to get into your life which has revolved around monasticism and Buddhism and also activism, and learn what you've been doing now and to but before we get there, let's learn about your background. I understand that you're from rural village in western Burma and take us back there. Tell us about growing up and your childhood and your ordination as a monk. Yeah,
Ashin Kovida 3:42
I was. I was born in a village, a village is no in Burma. There's no electricity, no television, no motor car, this car village in Burma. And I've grown up I was learning only in primary school for four years. After that, I went to monastery, a village monastery, I study Buddhist scriptures until 2020 years old, and at the age of 20. I was ordained, higher ordained ordination. I got ordination as a monk. After I got ordination, I went to Mandalay to study further Buddhist philosophy and mentally I study Buddhist philosophy and at the same time, I study English. But to study English as a Buddhist monk is like, taboo at the time, because this the senior monk the older monk, did not include are rich the young amongst to study any foreign languages because they think they believe studying foreign languages, especially English has nothing to do with, with the Buddha's teachings. Maybe because we were under the British colony, but I have no idea. So I studied English secretly, the senior monks didn't know about it then to 2020 20 or 2000 years 2000 I start teaching Well, I share my knowledge of English with my, my colleagues and my students. And at the same time I share my opinions of human rights and politics, which is democracy, democracy. When I was in village, I have never heard of human rights and democracy. Only when I was a Mandalay, I have learned something about democracy and human rights. So I share with the students, which was very dangerous and the military dictator, which was very brutal to the people oppress the people and torture, the people even killed the people on the monks. So, it was very difficult times. And fortunately 2006 I had an opportunity to go to Switzerland as a refugees, I will I stay there for 10 years after 2016 after the NLD. Won landslide elections, I returned to Bama and 2017 and then I thought the country would be better and the civilian world not 100% civilian government according to the 2008 constitution, which was very undemocratic. Made by the military junta, but anyway half democracy of dictator I think. So, I tried to organize events and formed Association, which is called Swiss heart for EMR foundations there. Then we start building and unfortunately 2020 21 The military sees the coup again. And in May one of my colleagues at my monastery he was arrested early morning and in the morning that the military coup fast, February 2021. And I was a little bit to hide in some way. And then I came back to the monastery after I think three months the military meant they rate my monastery I prepare everything's so my computers my laptops and my phone everything is I clear because I knew they were check everything so when they read when they came to my monastery, they check everything. They came to my sleeping rooms, my check my computers, my phone, everything. I delete everything they they didn't find it. Very often they came and they were very, very rude to us. They were pointing with a guns pointing at us with the guns and the shouting yelling to us. But we were very quiet unfortunately took a 22 turn this year much to turn 23 Yes much the military men finally they they bring the accused the two accused. And then they killed these two men's at my monasteries. And I decided I had to leave after escaped have to flee them their countries and I could flee with the help of my my colleagues monks and then some of PDF en que en you soldiers they have made to to flee the country to come to mess up. So I'm safe and secure and mess up Thailand. Now. I still continue to give some information to the purpose people and work with the I teach some CDM teachers. Yeah.
Host 11:11
Thank you for sharing that background. And I'm just so sorry to hear about the murder of these monks, your friends by the military. There's no words that can express my sorrow and the and just how awful that must have been. I'm really sorry for your loss.
Ashin Kovida 11:32
Yeah, thank you. Yeah. My my colleagues, he was arrested in two. He was charged 66 D. I didn't know which is called the Law, the Law times I didn't know. Then in prison. He was charged again with another accusations. five or five. I don't know what what is what is it means the law terms again, four years total four years. He was sentenced for four years. And after that, last June, he was released from prison. But the military mental camp. But no news he was missing. We don't know where he is. The military. They didn't inform to the family and his teacher and his friends. So he was missing somewhere. I hope he says they're alive. Because the military is they they kill the people and the teachers, the monks whenever, wherever they if they find, so we were really worried for him. The families didn't get any informations about him they were afraid to.
Host 13:04
Yeah. And how did you finally find out the news?
Ashin Kovida 13:08
Well, I got the news from the prison authorities. So they sent me the letters through Viva viva. I got it. And they said they released but the military man came to the prison. They took him to the military interrogation center. This all the last time I got the news. After that I didn't get any more news. I don't know I but I still I hope he is to stay alive. I don't know.
Host 13:53
That's terrible. That's that's just what snapshot of the reality that so many people right now in Myanmar are going through. And these are the these this is the unfortunate stories and the tragic unfolding that we're trying to inform our international audience about that this is a regime that is calling itself Buddhists that is murdering Buddhist monks behind bars and not informing as to their whereabouts or their status or or anything else and leaving so many people in such a state of mind of despair. And and then this is the work that you're doing in it so many are doing to try to confront this regime. Yeah.
Ashin Kovida 14:42
Yes. Because the people that people really confront against the military regime because they are really hungry for freedom and democracy and human rights in Burma. To the military, we oppress and violated human rights.
Host 15:01
So let's talk about human rights in Burma because you mentioned how, as a young monk, you're 20 years old, and this is the age when a man can become a monk for Bhikkhu, you became interested in English, English language. And this was something that was frowned upon or looked suspiciously by other monks at the time kind of foreign influence. And then you also began to be interested in human rights. And I'm curious about where the origin of your interest in human rights came from, because this is not something talked about very often and normal Burmese society, certainly not monastic society and human rights, then links to politics of military dictatorship and democracy and everything else. So what early influences came to you that had you interested and looking into these topics, which are very quite rare and dangerous to be interested in? And in that time in Myanmar?
Ashin Kovida 16:06
Well, when I stopped learning English, just interested in learning English language, that's it. But fortunately, I met some well informed Well, educated monks, who is really open minded and I talked, I had an opportunity to talk with him about politics. And I didn't believe I didn't support I didn't like Aung San su chi at that time, because I was influenced by the state media, which is called the new light of Myanmar state run out is at the moment, the military printed, printed, so all the times they blamed themselves with it, I, I talked about it to the monks. And so I told him, when nervous Fenerbahce ah, I, I couldn't understand our sensitivity and sensitivity all the times he talked about democracy in human rights. But the people do not understand what democracy means what the democracy is, what human rights is, if she really want to establish democracy, and human rights in Burma, he should educate the people about human rights and democracy. I told him, I told the monks about it, that the monk, too, told me, the monk explained to me well, is that I want to tell you some saying is that if you don't have any opportunity, your ability doesn't account. He said, You have to have you have to think that if I'm sensitive, he has had any opportunity to educate the people. You have to ask yourself, he enlightened me. So I just start thinking about it. And then, of course, I have a heart about human rights also, from the radio, BBC Burmese program, and VOA voice American Burmese program, I listened to quite often that time. And at the same time, I had I received many tourists at my English class, and I asked their health, if they can bring a book, which is called freedom from fear by Aung San su chi. And they said, Oh, it was very, it can be very dangerous to bring them books, especially at the airport, and migration, you know, they might not allow them because they have to show everything that I told them. Just replace the cover with other books. And then inside of the books, if, if you have any photos of ourselves, we just tear it out because the officers at the airport today can't read English, so that way they could smuggle out the books i. So I have read, access, which is book, freedom from fear that also really enlightened me about democracy and linking connecting with the Buddha's teaching. So really And that helped me to appreciate his heart of books and understanding human rights and democracy, linking connecting with the, with the Buddhism.
Host 20:19
So tell me that how do you see democracy and human rights connecting with Buddhism because this is an argument that some people make that, especially in the conservative military, kind of side of the in Burma, that there is an argument that has been made, that these are not compatible, that these that a Western understanding of human rights and democracy style that these are not in accordance with the Buddhist teachings and that, to have a Buddhist country, you need to operate society in a different way, and that these would actually be harmful for the survival of Buddhism and this asana. And so describe as a Buddhist monk, how you found a compatibility between the Buddhist discipline and the Buddhist teachings, and these concepts for perhaps Western, perhaps not of human rights and democracy.
Ashin Kovida 21:18
Well, the Buddha, if you was from our is in front of kings, the kings of family, he understand about the politics, of course, he didn't get involved in politics for the powers, but he still give the advice and for the good governance. So, the Buddha has said once the king should not against the will of the people. So the Kings, then the rulers, must rule the countries according in accordance with the will of the people this is the most important, I think, which is the fundamental of democratic principles. So the any government must respect the will of the people but the military Hunter, they never respect the will of the people or the times they against the will of the people and then they misuse the abuse, the teachings of the Buddha, and recently the military junta, they built a huge statue of the Buddha, they just want to be I would say they will just want to show that they are the great Buddhist supporter, actually, the Buddha said, if if you see the Dhamma, you see me so. So, if he really wants to be called a Buddhist, he must practice the teachings of the Buddha, but he called himself the Buddhist, the Buddhist, but his actions are really, really removed from the teachings of the Buddha. So even though he called himself is his action is totally removed from the teachings of the Buddha and and ancient times to like a tremendum. Commando, he called himself the supporter of Buddhist he was reborn according to the prophesies of the Buddha, so this is the I think this is a misuse. Obviously, Buddhism is religions and majority of the Burmese people in Burma, the people are Buddhist. So they they have to say they misuse the word, the name of Buddhism. So, until now, the military Hunter, they misuse the religion actually, they do not really practice the Buddha's teaching. So actually, the Buddha encourage freedom, and Denmark, which is righteousness and respect that all beings so which is really how to call as which is the same principle of democracy.
Host 24:33
So I appreciate you sharing your views and your background, your criticism of how the military has been misusing Buddhism or misunderstanding it. I think a question that I have that I know many other people around many other foreigners who been closely watching what's happening in Burma have also had this question and that's why these these the senior military Leaders are not called out, you know what they're doing to someone, even to someone who's not Burmese, someone who's not Buddhist, they look at their actions, and they see their actions and claiming they're doing things to defend Buddhism. And yet, what they're actually doing are against all the Buddhist precepts of how they're killing and stealing and use not only using intoxicants, but actually making a lot of money from intoxicants from narcotics on and on and on. They're breaking every core Buddhist principle and precept. And yet they're not just calling themselves Buddhist, they're saying that they're defending Buddhism. And certainly you have some senior monks who are playing some kind of role in being able to support them or cover for them. But I think one of the questions that some outsiders have is, why are there not more monks that are, are speaking up and speaking loudly? And I know that there's an enormous risk for this. And I know that you're one of those monks, who's doing this, but I think outside of Burma, to say this sensitively, you're you and people like you are not so well known, your your names are not so common, and your work is not so common. And so why is there not more of a movement, more of a voice more of a shout, even from the real Buddhists and the real monks from Burma, that are saying, these, these people running the country, they are not Buddhists, they are not practicing Buddhism, they are going against everything that Buddhism stands for, and this has got to stop and they are they are outside of our religion, they are misrepresenting us, they are destroying the real teachings that we're trying to follow this kind of in, in English, at least, this kind of movement, this kind of voice, this, and I, I don't mean to say this as criticizing, because I know that the risks for doing this are extreme, you know, that, that it's not so easy to just say these things against a brutal military dictatorship, even if you're outside of the country, you have friends and networks and families that can be impacted. But, you know, still there's this confusion on the side of foreigners that they they think they understand something of what the Buddha was teaching and some of Buddhist principles and practice and certainly meditation. And, and there's also some naivete there of I think of, of the way that they've come to understand Buddhism in the West. But at the same time, there. As they see how this brutal dictatorship is claiming to be Buddhist, there's, there's no strong voice that is being picked up by the media. And then maybe it's also some responsibility of media outlets that are not trying to cover this or give attention to this story as much as possible internationally. But it's not being heard there. The and so this confusion rests, that it's a question that I get all the time, I'm sure you get from your foreign friends as well. How can this country which has, has been the birthplace of this mindfulness movement, the birthplace of so many meditation traditions, and so much wisdom? How is this the same place where these, these brutal dictators are also using this religion manipulating the religion to justify their violence? And I think to me, one of the ways I've come to answer that is that there's not a compelling and a powerful voice, that from inside, whether it's inside Burma, or exiles who are living outside Burma, but there's not a compelling voice that is getting attention, that is calling them out consistently and showing them that they're not Buddhists, and they're not following the Buddhist teachings. And so, I wonder what your thoughts are on why there hasn't been this kind of counter argument, this this critical look, that has been calling out these military leaders that foreigners and Westerners are, are able to hear from and to understand that there is this real difference of opinion as to what is in line with Buddhism in Burma and what is not.
Ashin Kovida 29:09
Well, I think though, the wisdom medias I think, they are less interested in environment, I think they give more attention to the, to the Ukraine's and I think of course, there are some, not many monks and only a few monks who speaks out. Against the militaries and many monks they are afraid of killings. The Buddha has said, among the gift, the gift of dharma is the most precious of Guatemala is the truth, so to speak the truth. Even Kim, you can you have to give them the life for The truth in Burma, many people give their lives for speaking the truth in the young people, the students. And some monks also, of course, after, as a turn 2013, after Mahabharata nationalist amongst, organized, supported by them, military hunter. I think the monks also they are confusing because the monks, most of the monks, were born in a village that we were not well informed about politics. So we were fooled. Many young, many monks, were fooled by them, by the military. So of course, they are afraid of losing the religion, religions, the Buddhist teachings, actually, the Buddhist teaching, we will lose the Buddhist teaching and the military wanted. Buddhism would be I think, the teaching to the Buddha would be flourish under democratic principle, because of the Buddhist teaching, encourage criticism and critical thinking. So Buddhism, is really in line with the democratic principle.
Host 31:32
So you referenced Martha, and the rise of that movement and 969 and reroute to in the 2010s. Tell us your reaction and your thoughts as you saw this movement. And these and leaders of this movement start to get more attention, not just in Myanmar, but around the world. Did you? Did you see what was happening before it got so popular? And when it was starting before it got so much attention? And then as it started to become so big, what were your thoughts and concerns as you were watching it?
Ashin Kovida 32:09
Well, the monks reputation was very, really good. The last 2007 Saffron Revolution, but after Mahabharata was formed, I think we, we, the monks of reputation to a very decline and notorious notorious about the monks reputations in in Burma, of course, you know, when the time I was in Europe, when I get a contact with some of media's so who visit Burma. So as soon as they go to Burma fast they kept interview is the leader of Mahabharata ocean reader to and I asked them I requested okay, if the interview with a reader to why don't they get to their interview with other monks who are not agree, Would you not agree with them? Whereas most of the media's I think they are not, they're not so interested in because it's not. Attraction ffensive for for the people. So I think that's also quite effect. For for the countries I think they I think there are many monks who do not agree with the Veda stew.
Host 33:39
That's, that's remarkable. So you're in some ways, you're almost saying that Western media is somehow complicit in covering the rise in the popularity, perhaps amplifying the popularity of the Roku and the mmabatho movement, because they wanted stories that really focused on how sensational and how shocking Their views were, while purposely ignoring intentionally neglecting views and interviews with monks who strongly disagreed with me right through to balance it out, because perhaps they wanted to have a story that just looked more shocking. Is that your thought?
Ashin Kovida 34:19
Yeah, it is true because you know, the media is when I think there's some kind of a story or say, they know when Tiger by human This is not how to say the story, but when a human bite the tiger, that's the story for the media's so when the monks against the dictator when the monks I'd say against the Mahabharata, it is not really a story for the media's I think when the monks really Get involved in violence and extremist. That's shocking stories, interesting stories for the readers I think. So that make reader to bigger and bigger. Yeah, I think
Host 35:17
so you saw this happening, you saw how you had this mad monk violating these basic tenets of Buddhism and behaving in these terrible, inappropriate ways, which you disagreed with. And then you see this Western media coming and just giving him attention 1000 times more to be able to become even bigger than he ever could have hoped for.
Ashin Kovida 35:41
Yes, it is true. I think it would be nice to to give balance information, interviews, informations from both RSA and open in opinions of both. Both sides. Were we just practicing freedom and democracy in Burma? I think it might be helpful to get the help from the international communities.
Host 36:16
Sure. And you reached out to these media and you you tried to talk to them to interview with them to suggest other progressive monks they can interview and you say they were simply not interested in hearing your stories or your views. Is that
Ashin Kovida 36:30
right? Yeah, it is true, because they it's not really interesting. For then, I think, amongst the monks who do not agree with me that that's not so interesting, I think for them.
Host 36:46
Uh huh. Yeah. How about your thoughts and opinions about reroute to himself, not the media attention, but looking at the conditions that led to him and the movement and the monks around him that he built that and the views that were being expressed, did you know of him before he became famous, and as he started to gather attention and started to express these views more and more, as a fellow Buddhist monk, what were your thoughts and concerns as you were watching this develop? I
Ashin Kovida 37:19
knew him before he was well known in the world. I knew him. He was I know I was anti Muslim. I think last 2000 to 2003 he start making hate speech to a Muslim Muslims. And I said 2004 2000 I think 2003 Here, he was arrested for attacking the Muslims. Because I think at that time, the military wanted the rest him because you want to show to the I think, Indonesia, Malaysia, that they are not to tolerate. Anybody who attacked the Muslims because Indonesia, Malaysia, some majority of Muslim countries, they want to, they want support from these countries. The military Hunter wants support this country's weighed up to he himself was educated monks, but he's not well informed about the world about human rights and he was very influential monks in Mandalay says after he was released from prison, I thought he, he changed his mind, but he didn't change it, after the military Hunter visit 10 approach and I didn't know how they persuade him. Immediately, he formed Mahabharata and then against the Muslim and the NLD, all Sensoji all the times. So of course, there are many monks who do not agree my colleagues monks who was in prison, who is missing also do not agree with him.
Host 39:36
And why do you think his movement was able to be so big in Burma because if we're, I understand that Western media has amplified his voice abroad so that people in the West have an outsize view of him and his influence that was partly created by this Western media coverage, but at the same time, you Can't you can't blame Western media coverage for how big he got in Burma. Because these are Burmese Buddhists speaking Burmese not speaking English not following Western media. And by the time Western media came, he already had a big following. He already had an influence. And you know, this was really big. I remember when I was living in Myanmar and the monasteries, I would go to practice meditation. And suddenly, I would come to those monasteries, and I would just happen to see 969 stickers, you know, in the shrine room. And I don't know who put them there they weren't these things are complicated. It wasn't necessarily that the say it that I had been talking to at the monastery supported 969. It could have been a layperson who came and just put a sticker on himself without asking. You don't know these things. But what I mean by this is the influence and and the omnipresence of 969 started even for someone like me, who at the time wasn't really following this, I just kind of started to see it everywhere. I started to hear very close friends of mine Burmese Buddhist friends start whispering and talking in fear about the Muslim invasion and the Muslim influence. And so, you know, I think that that certainly, you can blame Western media for amplifying his voice to the west. But I don't think they'd be so much responsible for spreading his message and his movement and his fears and his hate within Burma that that must be another cause. So what what do you make of why and how he his message was able to really start to be so effective and in a really harmful way and in the country itself.
Ashin Kovida 41:40
I think they manipulated the Buddha's teaching the 969 simply the meaning is not really bad, you know, nice, the quality, nine qualities of the Buddha and six, six qualities of the Dharma and nine, the other nine, nine qualities of the Sangha. The origin, the meaning is nice. It's nice, it's okay, but it it was misused, abused by in the military wanto Movember era to was supported by the military's I, obviously, so. Like, I have I listen, I like Bob Marley here. Of course. The Yeah, yeah. So many people in Burma, we were living under the darkness of the military Hunter. We don't know anything. So we were, you can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time, like Bob Marley. Yeah, Get
Host 42:42
up, stand up,
Ashin Kovida 42:43
get up stand, right. That's great. We were fooled, you know, people were fooled. 969 All is good. So just the qualities of the Buddha, the qualities of the timeline, okay. But, you know, these were misused by the militaries. And, of course, we that view is really anti Muslims. And he doesn't care, any kinds of the rulers comes the militaries, or whoever you just want to say, against the Muslims, I think. I have a hardy is his mother was married to a Muslim because his his father after his father passed away. I think he was some trauma, maybe his personal emotions.
Host 43:47
But it really was effective. I mean, there, there was a sudden shift among the Myanmar populace, the Buddhist populace, that this was a legitimate fear and very kind and rational and good friends of mine that I'd had for many years there, were suddenly really fearful and really hateful of a Muslim presence and insistent that, that I couldn't understand and no one outside Burma could understand everyone was kind of was was missing either missing the point either because they were naive or because they were they had a malicious intent. And it became something where it just became a non starter for a conversation it'd be became something I didn't even want to approach in the dialog because it was so contentious with people I respected and and so painful to, to bring this up. And, and so it really, it really started to spread and take hold among ordinary people that this is something they should be concerned and, and and concerned about that these are people these are not people these are they deserve the discrimination and that the West didn't understand, and perhaps was even even trying to cause harm and that the military was something of a protector. So these were really shocking ideas for a majority populace that had just recently itself come out of, of a rigid military dictatorship and was now in a transition period to suddenly take on these ideas in mass and the way that they did.
Ashin Kovida 45:25
Yes, I think the military's always claimed that they are the guardians of the religion, they are the guardians of democracy, they are the guardians of the countries even you even after the military coup, now the last time is 2021. When they rate the monastery, my monasteries, they, they said we are the guardians of the religions and the countries. I couldn't say anything because we they they came with a guns, just quiet. And, of course, many people that the beginning of the ICMR Bertha come to Burma, even the NLD you know, many people, they they shipped the time, to the Mahabharata, Mahabharata and Isaac's night that I went in. And also he went and immediately he knows, he knows about it. This is political and tensions created by from a graduate from the military and USDP. But many people, even from the NLD, they didn't know that in the beginning. But later, of course, they many, many people knew about it. But still the young monks they couldn't understand it.
Host 46:57
Yeah, and I'm just thinking how, you know, from my side i My background in Burma I'm I've been more involved in the Buddhist and meditative part, I have a lot of friends that are monks and meditators. And for me, it was really shocking and disconcerting. How many of my friends who I had, they, they had, they were living such a noble life, they were they were people I felt that had this wisdom, and that his kindness and compassion, and they were my inspiration for so much of my time there and, and taught me so much about the practice and, and the core Buddhist teachings. And they were, were suddenly not, most of them, many of them. Some exceptions were not applying. What I had seen is this lifetime of wisdom and compassion and meta to their understanding of what was happening in Burma, that that there was this this disconnect, and I couldn't believe the words coming out of their mouth. And I'm saying this because I had a podcast conversation recently with Scott Marcial, the former American Ambassador to Burma. And he came from it at a different point of view where he had talked to other people who said the same thing, Igor Plaza vich, another name that comes to mind, they've referenced how they've had long standing friendships and relationships with lifetime democracy activists in Myanmar from the ADA generation and beyond. And they were similar to how I was shocked hearing lifelong Buddhists and people I admired for their meditative background, saying these anti Islam statements, they were commenting that these lifetime democracy activists and people who've been imprisoned and been harmed by the military throughout their life, were similarly saying the same thing. And they were shocked to hear the words coming out of their mouth that these people who had promoted and worked for human rights and federal democracy for so many years, that they were also fearful of a Muslim invasion. And so it was a propaganda job. And I think that Facebook also played a role in this that has not fully come to light and how they also supported these anti Islam messages coming out of that time. And, you know, but but whatever I think how it happened is something that we probably don't fully know yet. And it's going to take some more time to uncover that it did happen and that it happened as fast and as complete as it did among the Burmese Buddhist population. I think that is something probably not up for debate. I think that's something that that we can remember as being a very tragic fact.
Ashin Kovida 49:34
Yeah. It is true, I think, I think because it happens because our education system in Burma was wrong, I think. The government's estate school also and then the monks education, we learn only a Buddhist philosophy. That's it. We do not we do not learn any other subjects like Mathematics or any foreign languages within within them within study, and then any Western philosophy, histories within within them. I think the bulk of the government, the military Haunter, they did not encourage for the monkey to lamb, any other subjects that make us like a blind, blind faith? blind to the world? I think so. We did not. We were not well informed about the world to that. So
Host 50:42
what was your thoughts as you saw this movement taking off in the 2010? So that Islamophobia that was happening in the Rohingya crisis? What was your how were you personally watching it and feeling as you saw this unfolding?
Ashin Kovida 50:56
What I thought 2000 I think? I think we got to, he was freed. I talked with him. I talked with him. It is it's not the right way. At the time I was in Germany, in Germany. Through the messenger, I talked with him. He didn't agree with me. And then I wrote some articles about him. Of course, you know, he was also against me. Rohingya Rohingya issue I think it is a problem because the military want us. No, they didn't amend the citizenship law is a very unsafe, helpful, and especially 21st centuries, the citizenship law in Burma 9882 laws. No foreigner can become a Burmese citizen, even that, even if they're married babies, woman or men, their children cannot become citizens of Burma, even the next year, only a third generation would be half Burmese citizens. This is citizenship law. This is not helpful for the countries to I think we should amend it, that law. And this This is not the only reason I think the military want as they just want to create problems. For for the NLD I think the the military wanted, they do whatever they want, and they didn't take any responsible. Of course, according to the Constitution, they didn't. They didn't need to take any responsible for what they were doing.
Host 53:04
Great. So we've talked about we rock through let's talk about some of the other well known Buddhist monastic leaders. And I think that as you have been a Buddhist monk for your life, you've been involved also in the worldly matters of your country. I think you might be able to help us break down the understanding of some of these other leaders and their actions and personalities and motivations and ways that as foreigners, sometimes we we can be confused and not quite understand what we're seeing or hearing. So let's start with Sitagu. Sayid is perhaps the most famous monk in Burma, he's someone who himself early in his career faced problems and threats from the military regime. He's someone who also has done an enormous amount of humanitarian work around the country in ways that we've never really seen before from a Buddhist monk. And yet, he's also come to be seen as many as Pro military and or as sympathetic. There are some that would, would argue this, that, that, that he's not quite understanding how he's being manipulated and used. And there are others who say that he's very clear and very intentional of what he's saying and how that is supporting this current regime. So what's your take? What's your first What's your relationship with Sitagu? Seda? How have you known him? Have you known him personally and as you followed his career and his role? What have been your thoughts? Well,
Ashin Kovida 54:42
I have learned something from Andy and at his university in Saigon for one year. Well, you can say I, he is my teacher, one of my teacher, my teachers. As you said, you I have a tie under the belt, a military one to 9097. So he was against the military want. And he was threatened, watched by the military. And at the time. i He was not naive. He was very one form mountaineer. He traveled around the world. I think he has a lift, you flee the country, matching it to the United States for two years. Form, speak out against the military on at the time. I think I think he, he is he works for his own popularities I think when we speak out against the military, because the whole country across the country against the military junta, so he just wants to, to get the support from the people against the military, and then I say 2013 And then approach Aung San su chi, and then our sensitivity, is she okay? In the beginning, they were a bit quite understanding, but after and for me, the the Mahabharata authencity did not invite him anymore. And then I think the Sitagu Sayadaw, he was he was not happy with her. And then another month was when a monk, maybe you might know them was sinking down from Yangon, Moby Moby from Moby monastery. He's a winner. And he's very close with the military. And then he, he advised the militaries to approach Sitagu, Theodore Sitagu, Sitagu Sayadaw is as follows his own popularity, and then of course, the militaries also visit Sitagu monastery. That way, I think they were very, the military and Sitagu Sayadaw. They were very close friends, the military took care of and they took him by military jet. He was very pleased for that. Since then, I think he support the military's now, I think the many people many people understand they do not support Sitagu Bucha Sitagu Sayadaw. Before, everyday, everyday, he has a Dhamma talk everywhere and across the country. Now. Nobody, I think majority of the people do not invite him the military support anymore. Anyway. Is
Host 58:29
that surprising to you? I mean, a few years ago before the military coup, just given the popularity of of Sitagu I rarely heard anyone say anything ever, even a whisper that was critical of him even though I think that people felt some concerns at the time, it was just as his the strength of his karma as armies were so strong, that I think there was a fear of wanting to say anything critical of someone who had that much spiritual power, so to speak. And yet a few years later, he's not there, there are normal, Burmese, Boulais Burmese Buddhists that are making all kinds of Facebook posts saying all kinds of things about him that just a few years ago would have been unheard of, to for people to have that that courage to speak like this are our use. Are you surprised or would you have been surprised if you looked a few years before that? The people would turn on him this quickly?
Ashin Kovida 59:30
I feel surprised but I'm very happy to see the young people, the young generations you know the against them. Such a powerful monks, you know, the criticize and very happy for that is now Burma is improving. I believe in the change will come the military will fall down with the power of the young. The young generations, I believe, before the before the military coup, the laws the law As a military coup, as you said many people, they were very sad or they say reluctant to criticize Siddiqui. Theodore, who is a very influential power for monks by my bad tooth 2021 The military coup all the people, especially the young people wake up and they didn't tolerate anybody, any monks, anybody who who stand to with, uh, with the military, for the militaries, they criticize. I'm very I'm very happy for this.
Host 1:00:47
Well, that opens up a really interesting discussion there of there's there's two different ways of Buddhist thought, I guess you can say one way is that the monks are in a different field and a different area of life, a different sphere, a different realm, than the normal lay people and that there's a feeling there's been a feeling for some time in Burma that lay people should not criticize monks, it's not appropriate that monks need to take care of themselves and lays need to take care of themselves. And that it's just as monks maybe shouldn't comment so much on the worldly or political affairs. lay people also should not so much interfere with criticizing the way monastics, teach or follow the Vinyasa or these other things, because that's really up to the monastics to administer themselves. And, and it also harms their marriage and harms their chance at a successful rebirth that if you're critical of some monastic, you're not being respectful and not being respectful to a monk is one of the most spiritually dangerous things you could do in Buddhism. On the other hand, there's these concepts of critical engagement of independent thinking of being able to ask and answer questions and make challenges that challenge authorities and different traditional beliefs that I think is not just an inherent part of human nature, but certainly goes back to the Buddha himself where the Buddha himself historical Buddha's is quoted as saying that we shouldn't follow certain religious traditions just because our elders say it to be true, we should go and explore and learn it ourselves. And so you have these contrasting views in Buddhism, and certainly in as the way it shapes in Burma as to whether one should kind of be quiet and respectful and gain merit and not do something that would look disrespectful to, to a religious authority. And on the other hand, to be able to explore one's own critical thought and, you know, does a as an example, like does a does a 21 year old lay, Burmese Buddhist women have the right to call out in question, a 60 year old Burmese Buddhist monk who's been in robes for two years and has whatever titles after his name? And is the abbot of a monastery? Do they have the right to engage in a critical discussion? Or is it more of a hierarchical approach where you just give you hold your mouth, you'd be respectful, and you gain the merit from having this respect and the critical engagement is, could be a sign of disrespect because of your station and your knowledge and experience. So what are your thoughts on this dynamic?
Ashin Kovida 1:03:34
Well, I think you know, the Buddha himself, encouraged critic criticisms, but of course, constructive criticism. Now, the monks, we follow practice venia rules and regulation, these rules and regulations, becomes appears, appears because the people the lay people criticize the monks. So that's why the Buddha formed the laws for for the, for the monks, from his father, from the normal people, it doesn't matter if they if if they belong to any kind of any other phase, you know, the Buddha respect their opinions. So, when the people or the lay people criticize to the monks, the Buddha, when you know that they he, he sets the rules for the monks to follow. So the monks, the Buddha allowed anybody to criticize the monks, even his teaching and one of the most intelligent monks in the Buddhist history, who is called Sariputta. After the Buddha he was the most intelligent and the young monks, the young novice, seven years old, criticize him for his weary He does not need. And then Sariputta he was very welcomed a criticism from the young novice criticism is not contradict with the Buddha's teaching, we should criticize anybody who are against it, Adama.
Host 1:05:20
Thank you. Thank you for that that's that's important to hear. Another thought that comes to mind is that whenever a society is going through a dramatic transformation, the traditional patterns and practices and religions of that society are threatened, because they, there's a concern that this transformation is going to make some of these traditional beliefs, less important, less relevant to the younger generation moving forward. And we saw that in the British colonial period, I mean, in the British colonial period, there is a real fear that the Sasa was going to be lost and the Buddhist teachings were going to be lost with the loss of the bath and the pine and the king no longer around to support it, the British colonial authority in place, missionaries are now arriving preaching Christianity, and everything else. And lady say it up played this incredible role in being able to make Buddhism and Buddhist teachings relevant for the modern age, rather than trying to protect them or preserve the way that it was practiced before against this, this really threatening tide of modernity coming, lady say it was able to take those core teachings, adapt them, and then make them relevant to the present age. So he wasn't afraid of science, or Christianity, or British colonialists, or English language or anything else, he actually used some of these. He used and he understood these these modern concepts to be able to show how Buddhism was relevant for the modern age. And I think this is valuable to think about today. Because Myanmar is changing again. I mean, after 2012, it's a process of change started, which is never going to be rolled back a process of change of everything, from education, to job opportunity to travel to internet technology and everything else. And it seems to me that there's this fear among Burmese Buddhists, that the only way to protect Buddhism against this change is to is to build a protective layer shield against the whole world, and to keep the society in the country frozen against all outside influence and change as a way of protecting these older traditions. And this seems to me the opposite of what lady said it was doing it and I'd like to get your views I'm not Burmese I'm I didn't grow up in this society. I spent 15 years living there. But I don't have the perspective you have, and certainly not as a monk. But it seems to me that the the best way to preserve Buddhism, and Buddhism, as it exists in Myanmar, is to look at what lady say that was doing of how can these core teachings and this beauty and this treasure? How can this be preserved and adapted to the modern age without fear, as opposed to the much more fearful approach that you know everything from the west to materialism, to Muslim influence, and what an internet and whatever else is coming that these things are going to corrupt Buddhism, so we need to, we need to build this shield so that the traditional way that we understand Buddhism is unchanging, nothing can affect it, nothing can change it, this is a way to really suffocate it, where there's no air and you're and and this protection ends up kind of killing it. I think that looking back, the lady say it gives a different perspective of how the country and the people can continue to move along and transform, while Buddhist principles are still maintained, but they're adapted rather than then having this kind of fearful protection on them. But what are your thoughts on these two different ways going forward that Buddhism can be in the world and in Burma or perhaps if you have other ideas of other pathways?
Ashin Kovida 1:09:28
I think the conservative monks, of course, they are afraid of losing where they are, so they don't want to move anywhere. I think this is everywhere. It happens in the world. I think so. Everything is changing. Nothing lasts forever, I think terrible. The Buddha's teaching the Buddha's teaching is the teachings of the Buddha is called the satsang. same as anybody. So it's simple. The Buddha did not call his teaching as a religion. So he just show the ways anybody who takes his his teaching his advices way to work at a peace if you want to call it peace or Nibbana you don't need to call yourself a Buddhist example. Like the Buddha said, the precept Five Precepts example. In Buddhist country like in Burma, I just I don't want you to any other countries in Burma, every Sabbath day. Buddhist holidays, they go to the temple, and then they take the precepts. But there are a lot of kind of crimes, still, something's corruptions corruption is kind of stealing and it aligns is drugs and drinking a cohort horse, these are against the Buddhist teachings, but they are reciting from their mouth, but in Western societies example they are not Buddhist, they do not go to the Buddhist temple. I think a lot less corruptions, I don't say they are perfect. Almost no no corruptions. Wherever you go, you don't let nobody steal how to say at home. But in Burma, I think even the pakodas is not safe, I think you have to they worry about losing their motorbikes or something like that. So, it doesn't matter I think you call yourself Buddhist or not. Actually, if the Buddha said when you see the Dharma, you see me. So, until we practice the Buddha's teaching the Buddha's teaching will never I think loss. So, we do not worry and then the Buddhist, the Buddhist, monks, they, I hope they understand now they already lost connections with the people, but even under the British colony, so at that time, the mount the month, they, they they have a communication with the people because they the monastery monistic education is a very important role at that time. But nowadays, nobody, the no young generations go to the monasteries for their educations. The monks, they didn't have their qualifying enough to give education to the young, the young generations, I think that will be difficult, they will lose connections, communication with young people, they will go fine for so they have to change, the monks have to change, if they don't change, they will lose their their positions I think they have to change their education systems or they have to open up their mind they have to learn the situation what the people want. So the Buddha always studied first about the people and then to give the advice to people. So now the monks they do not learn about the people just want to give the advice it is not the right way I think. So first we have to learn a good teacher, we say the Buddha is not a creator, He is a good teacher, a good teacher is not understanding about the subject. A good teacher is somebody who knows about this about the students, the students character, the students behavior, then give the advice. So now the monks if they really want to be a good teacher, they have to know what the people need what the people wants. Then they have to give the advice what the people want. If so, to be able to to to be qualified teacher, as a monk they have to change their their education systems to
Host 1:14:55
that's a powerful answer. And it really it also goes back to this conversation. We had a little bit ago, where we're looking at what is the relationship between lay and monastic is it reciprocal in terms of giving and respecting and deferring and not engaging. And I mean, even going back further, 100 years ago, the sometimes lay people would go to a Dhamma discourse, Monk would would give, would give a sermon. And he would put a fan in front of his face, and sometimes speak using Pali and the lay people couldn't understand a word he said, he would sometimes speak for three hours. And, and just the fact of going and sitting and offering and bowing down that was merit. And let this was another way that lady say it I really revolutionized and brought these teachings into a modern age was that he gave sermons that actually spoke to people actually gave them knowledge actually engage their critical faculties. It wasn't just going into a sermon and gaining merit by listening, but it was actually engaging the mind and giving you agency to be able to practice and think about these things yourself. But this is still an ongoing debate, even though in 2023, we don't really have monks who speak for three hours, with a fan in front of their face where not a word is understood, that part has changed at least. But there's still this question of, to what degree are lay people allowed to engage with monks? How can they critically challenge them? How can they disagree with them? How can they call them out if they, as you say, in a constructive way, where they're able to not keep their mouth shut and express a concern, and feel validated feel they have a place. And I think this discussion also moves to an examination of another monk I want to bring to you and that's the Bible say it out. And in the statements of Kabbalah say it, I've seen a real paranoia of modernity, he seems very, very afraid of development and influence beyond Myanmar, and feels that he's indicated that the only way to save and preserve the sosna and Buddhism and Myanmar is to prevent an economy and prevent opportunities and prevent travels and that all of these things will eventually destroy Buddhism and and that, basically, you need to keep the country frozen in time because as he said, once people start to be educated once they start to get opportunities, they lose their interest in Buddhism. And as the country develops, Buddhism gets lost. And so the way to preserving Buddhism is to prevent the country from developing. That's not he doesn't say that last point. But that's the only real logical conclusion you can come from and listening to him, at least for me. So what are your thoughts on the Bala and we should also mention that like Sitagu, Seda, the Bilasa faced enormous discrimination and problems from the military in his life, he was not prevented to study medicine in school, which he wanted to do. Because of his Chinese ancestry. The military would not allow people with his blood, even though he was a full fledged Myanmar citizen or or I should say, actually, he was, he was not a citizen. That was the problem. But he was deprived citizenship, full citizenship. He was a second class citizen, but he had spent his whole life in Burma, but he had Chinese blood. So he was denied educational opportunities. And then when he started his mission, the military was constantly trying to shut them down and, and, and persecute him and and causing him all kinds of problems. It was only when the NLD came to power that his mission really was able to grow with the freedom that NLD allowed. So like Sitagu say, that's a very interesting example of someone who has suffered from the military's influence over him and his mission, and yet now seems to act and speak in ways that are very appreciative and supporting what the military is doing and being very fearful of the loss of Buddhism through development in Burma. So what are your what's what's your relationship with the Balmaceda? And how have you seen his movement grow?
Ashin Kovida 1:18:58
I think about Theodore is not well informed. I think Sitagu CFO, is how do you say are more influential, I think if I was Jada was Yato is of course you know, is quite well known in Burma, but he's not dangerous to the people I think Sitagu zyada is more dangerous. Like I think we are not shortage of the monks who are open minded. But I think if we have opportunity, I think there will there will there will be some many monks who will change the age education system, but the military themselves they do not encourage like that is a door and open Do Pandita three donco Santa Anita Sayadaw they are not encouraged by the military they are banned to travel abroad to until he passed away because the he supported to the the unknown armies on Sensoji sushi. So, I think now adays says the, the young monks, they understand policy theory they have to change the education system, but they don't know how to change I think they still don't know how to change the education system yet. Now, they open the college and unit so called or college so called University the development is only the materials materials, but the education system does not really development, the curriculum is still the same. Of course, you know, they many more young monks stopped learning foreign languages English which is unprecedented in Burma now. They still need to change the curriculum also like studying the history of Western philosophy, approaching the Western philosophy the book and through Buddhist teaching, studying Buddhist teaching through the Western philosophy like like that, because we have to we must not lost communication with the people because the people and the monks we are interdependent and interrelated. Now, even the the monks I think they have difficulties for the fruit because many people now suffer. So now I say the monks they say before they got tissue Mark Turner sieben in Burmese said only when the lay people were to do they will be able to support the monks. So now nowadays the people oppressed by them by the military or into the the economy is destroyed by the military so they can't support the monks to the monks have the difficulties so I help the monk what change and the education systems to
Host 1:22:55
you mentioned that you think that Sitagu was more dangerous than yeah bahwa Can you explain what you mean by dangerous
Ashin Kovida 1:23:01
danger a big because there is more influential his smart smarter than us about the Baba Yaga to the to who has more students see. He can like can be a canny, more intelligence, he can be coming.
There locally and globally. He's small, I think, I mean, globally means that the people are Burmese people outside of the country, not the Western Western US. And so it's more influence. Right, but
Host 1:23:50
the baba Sayadaw does have quite a growing number of Western followers who aggressively are defending him against the democracy movement?
Ashin Kovida 1:23:59
Well, I didn't know that he has a lot of Western followers. But among the Burmese communities, I think in in the United States, I think there are many Burmese communities you guessed against him in tedlium. Obama, I think he lost a lot of his his followers, his supporters, he he said he has some difficulties. Even four to two feet of people in his yoga meditation center after after us meeting with the general divisor of the NLT.
Host 1:24:49
You Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But he also he I don't know how much you've heard his talks. But however influential he is, or he isn't, I think his person Bective is still very relevant and very interesting to know because his view is promoting a fear of modernity and a fear of progress and development and that there's a protectionist and isolationist attitude is the only way to really preserve Burmese Buddhism and the military is what's doing that. And so I wonder if you can speak to his what you see of his his beliefs and his perspective and why these might be relevant and understanding the way that some Burmese Buddhists and some Burmese Buddhist monks are feeling and fearing today.
Ashin Kovida 1:25:36
I think there are many, many Buddhist monks in Burma, I think, who do not agree with him. I I think he is a kind of xenophobia too. And because he got a lot of support. The conservative boot is delayed people. So that's a he's afraid to lose this kind of support. Now, the younger generations, I think they do not accept him anymore. I think even the elder generations do not accept him inside the inside of the countries. We are not really afraid of him, I think we will worry more. We worry Sitagu Bucha are among more than an hour.
Host 1:26:35
Right? He has proclaimed that he is the only one who's capable of solving the Myanmar crisis? Because he believes that he's the only one that both sides listen to and respect.
Ashin Kovida 1:26:46
I don't, I don't think so. No, no, no, no, no he for for us is for Burmese people, is almost nothing, I think, if the military did not support and is nothing
Host 1:27:06
I see, I do want to spend just a moment on his ideas, though, and not so much to focus on on him personally, because I've gotten your understanding on that. But I think that if we contrast these two different routes of how Buddhism can be preserved and practiced in Myanmar, you have the fearful paranoia, perspective that the Bible has promoted, and other people like him have promoted that modernity, foreign influence technology, internet education, development, progress, all of these things. And I should also mention a plural democracy, a federal democracy, where you have the inclusion and the protection of non Buddhists that are part of the country, that all of these features are very dangerous for the sosna. And that in order for Buddhism to be protected, all of these things need to be limited need that build walls, you need to isolate it. Otherwise, these influences and features will start to erode and destroy Buddhism, and there will no longer be Buddhism and Myanmar, and the sosna will disappear. That's one way of looking at it. Another way is going back 100 150 years to the lady, say at a model where you're not fearful of change, you're not resisting change, you're actually welcoming it, you're bringing the core Buddhist teachings without watering them down or modifying them or changing them. But you're bringing them into agreement and into discussion with all of these modern features. And yes, it's scary because the quote unquote, traditional forms of Burmese Buddhism might have to be changed to fit with the modern times coming. And this can be jarring or discombobulating or scary to some people understandably, but that in the long run this kind of meeting the present moment rather than running from it or building walls from it, that this is a better way to to try to preserve Buddhism and Buddhist teachings. And so I'd like to get your feedback on my description of these two different roads and these two different possibilities if if you also see these two paths as as as ways forward that different people are advocating or if there's other pathways you see and where you think that Buddhism needs to go in Myanmar, in order to be preserved and maintained for the future.
Ashin Kovida 1:29:36
I think that Buddhism doesn't need to go anywhere I think in because, like you said, Lady Sayadaw he is a revolutionist. So he was criticized by the the conservative monks because he gave a Dhamma talk in a Playing Burmese language, while the other conservative mousy they speak Dhamma in Pali, which nobody understand. And so we don't need to Buddhism doesn't need to go anywhere, but that the monks have to change the way to approach the Buddha's teaching. Because the Buddha, I believe, the Buddha did not teach his theories, his philosophies, the Buddha, just to share his experience. So, the experience, I think, is the nature. So the nature has always remained the same, I think the Buddha doesn't go goes to the internet, but the material and modern modernization goes to the external is different, but the Buddhism will give us peace. If we worry about losing the Buddhism, I think this which is against the Buddhist teaching, we don't need to worry anything, we don't need to attach anything that will make us peaceful, this is the Buddha's teaching, worrying about losing the Buddha's teaching is not the way to the Buddha's teaching. I think, just if you want to follow the Buddha's teaching, just practice. That's it, I think. So we don't need to worry. So the monks only show to have to change the way to approach the Buddha's teaching. And as you know, you know, the the monks have knowledge, this is borrowing, knowledge, SUTA my opinion, center my opinion and bawana my opinion, there's three different kinds of three different levels of wisdom and knowledge, borrowing knowledge, they just learn from the books, they do not know anything, if they do nothing about it. Maybe, you know, there's English saying, reading without thinking is like eating without digest, digesting. So, we Buddhist monks, we just learn by heart, by heart by heart, without thinking anything. So we learn a lot, but we don't know anything, that borrowing knowledge. It will not help us anything to say, to make progress or at dip loved physically or mentally anything's like, the doc the doctors give us prescriptions, suggested reading prescription will not cure our diseases, like the monks are like reading prescriptions from the doctors. So, and then thinking alone thinking the Buddha's teaching also it will not help us just we have to study and then what what we have learned and to practice that will help us I think, now the monks who worry about losing them, the to Buddhism. They do not really practice, they do not really I would say, think about it, and intellectual level. I think
Host 1:34:09
that's interesting. That's really interesting. So you're also pointing not just to the politics and the society, but you're also pointing towards the monastic education system. And not only how monks are interacting interfacing with delay, but how monks themselves are engaged in study, whether it's rote memorization or passing exams and getting titles or whether it's a more critical, nuanced and individual way to engage with the teachings. And I think what this brings up for me is the wonderful thesis by Kumar Dumisani about the history of monastic education and Myanmar. I'm not sure if you've read it. But one of the things that comes out in his book is talking about the the monastic education system During lady say it as time as a novice and a young monk and how the the type of monastic education that existed then allowed lady say that to become lady say into it, it allowed him to be able to follow his pursuits and his his interests and his critical explorations. And one of the big takeaways of the book is that the way that the monastic education system developed much against people like Maha can do and that we're trying to push it in different directions, that if a lady Sado was born today, or was born 20 years ago, or 30 years ago, he would not have been able to become a lady Seta because the monastic education system would have constricted him and trapped him in a certain structure that would not have allowed him to innovate and become the person that he was. What are your thoughts on that?
Ashin Kovida 1:35:53
Yes, I think Lady Sayadaw Yes, he's much earlier and then what is that is Mark and dial zero, right. Under your candle zero, he was he was also revolutionist. quite real. Yeah, he was, he was called a communist.
Host 1:36:14
Really? Oh, yes. He
Ashin Kovida 1:36:16
was a communist by, by the, by the conservative monk, because he did not encourage to build Sadie Agoda he encouraged to to build schools and a horse hospitals. So that's why he was called a communist and encouraged to study English and mathematics. And the monks education's even when he was born again, as you can see, I think it would be difficult for him to, I think, but anyway, I think I'm not losing hope.
Host 1:37:01
So it sounds like you're also suggesting that the entire monastic education system needs to be reformed. Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah. Tell us more about that.
Ashin Kovida 1:37:11
Yes, the monks education system in Burma is totally learning by, by hearts only without thinking they do not have any thinking by learning and then retold and the examinations and then anybody who can memorize than they are the best. That's it they have any critical thinking any ideas, they don't have any ideas about other world? So this is the education system amongst education systems in Burma, I hope it we cannot go that voice and 25 to centuries, we have to reform on how would you like to see it reform we have who have to reform in 21st centuries because the Buddha himself the the work come to criticism, we have to work them to criticism to we have to open up to the world, we have to open up ourselves to see the world to we'll have to work around the world. We have to say live together with everybody. So we all are humans.
Host 1:38:46
And how would you like to see it reformed? What reforms do you think could make a difference?
Ashin Kovida 1:38:52
I want to see them do reforms, reforms. About the education system for the markets to to to be able to study or about about the world about the people's like? Studying Pali is not a Buddhist point of view is studying Pali as a language. Now, the Buddha, the Buddhist monks who study Pali language, as a Buddhist philosophy, but no no monks can speak Spanish. in Pali language they we can't communicate in Pali language. I think no monks can communicate in Pali language in Burma, even though we have tested in 2030 years. So this is the wrong system, that roll method of education
I want the monks, the monks to study history, the history of the world. Not all but some central extent. And any RSA any foreign languages shall be in the exam and Buddhist curriculums that will help us to open up.
Host 1:40:33
And what are the challenges in preventing this monastic reform from taking place in not just at this present moment, obviously, that's kind of ridiculous with the current conflict. But, you know, looking back the past number of years and even decades and even looking at like Mahatma Gandhi one's life where his stated purpose of his life was to reform monastic education, to move it away from these exams and rote memorization, and he felt he did not succeed at the changes he wanted to make to it. Maha can do in itself for many years resisted. And I think it's a little bit different today. It's not quite the education there today is not quite as it was when Satan was still alive. But overall, this is in his vision, and also the vision you're talking about. It has been a failure. And so not just looking at this moment, but the past number of years and decades, what have been the forces that have been able to successfully resist these reform attempts?
Ashin Kovida 1:41:33
I think without changing the political systems, I think the the monk's education system will not change too, because of the poor politics. The military Haunter. misuse this RSA naive monks so fast to have to change the politics in Burma, and Federal Democratic in them, I think the most education system will follow automatically I, I believe that easily, not easily.
Host 1:42:18
No, it's not. That's a tall order. That's what I was gonna say. I was I was thinking how to ask you the question, you know, are you hopeful? In a way that wasn't? depressing, and? And impossible? But But are you hopeful? Do you? Do you think that this dream is possible? Yes. So what why are you still hopeful?
Ashin Kovida 1:42:37
Because, you know, because the, the monks alone cannot stand. We must, cannot allow extend ourselves, we always were we have to depend on the artist say, the charities depend, we are dependent that the lay people, if the lay people. I'd say if we cannot, if we are not qualified enough to teach the lay people I think the lay people will not support the monks, I think. So. We have to, with that. If we don't change, the education system will never be qualified.
Host 1:43:24
There's so much fear to change. There's there's so much attachment to the way things have always been. And such a paranoia that any change well, not reform things to make them better and meet the modern times, but actually open up the possibility of destroying the Sasana and and that's why this kind of tight hold protectionism, against reform in all aspects of Myanmar, from monastic education, to politics to lay monastic interactions, gender equality, so many other things. We're looking at a minute ethnic minorities, religious minorities, the the fear to resist, that change is built on and based on the fear of the decline of the sosna. So that's what you're up against, right? Even though you're saying that change is going to be what, like lady said, we need to change to save the sauce and we need to change to protect Buddhism. They're saying no, we need to protect, we need to prevent change, and keep out all influence and that's the way to protect Buddhism. So these ideas are fundamentally at odds. Yes.
Ashin Kovida 1:44:34
I think nobody can control the change. The first change is politics after the politic change. I think no monks can control the change of the monks education systems. I believe. I believe we cannot go that way. We cannot continue. Like like that.
Host 1:44:59
Well, I agree with you as well. I just, I'm it's a tall order. It's a it's a. It's a lot to do. Yes,
Ashin Kovida 1:45:09
of course, nothing is easy. But yeah, but we have to try, right? Yes, yes.
Host 1:45:17
Right. And we have to try by not just the work that you're doing, but by the attention that we want to give to you. And that's part of having you on this podcast to be able to amplify your voice to our audience. But you know, hey, we're a humble platform. We're not BBC, we're not CNN. So. And that's just the international audience. Of course, you have your Burmese audience and the way you reach them differently. So, you know, it's, it's a lot of work to promote these views, and get them out there. And it's a lot of work to actually work within the system to make those changes someone is great. And influential is Maha Ghandi own filled? Yeah. So it's a lot ahead of us.
Ashin Kovida 1:45:59
I, I don't think he felt but many monks, they, they, they they understand, but at the same time, they respect mark and do the same time like you said, they just worry to lose to the Buddha Sasana day. A bit contradict ourselves. Yeah, contradict?
Host 1:46:24
Yeah, so you don't sound like one of those monks, you don't say you sound like a monk, who is dedicated to the Buddhist teachings and Buddhist discipline, but you're not afraid of modernity and foreign influences? So how do you bring these two together?
Ashin Kovida 1:46:40
Well, I I'm not afraid of any any foreign influence, because I, I believe the humanity, I believe humanity, everybody is a human, a human. So I lived in Western countries also. So I lived when I lived there. I met many people who were very nice. To me also, even though they are foreign, even though they have never been to Burma. So I, I believe this is Respect, respect each other. That's enough.
Host 1:47:35
But not just on a personal level, also at a national level, and looking at it through the perspective of preserving the sauce, Anna, you are totally dedicated to preserving the Sangha and preserving Buddhism in Myanmar. And yet, you your way of preserving it is to not be fearful of development and change in foreign influence, but to actually welcome them and so many monks see these two things at odds they see one as threatening the other but you don't seem to feel threatened by it.
Ashin Kovida 1:48:06
No, I don't see this threatens I think that will be helpful, even more developed, I think, like a big fish way. He cannot, he cannot swim in it's more porn, you know, when whale need a big, big oceans, the seas. So like a Buddha Sasana is like a very whale, fish, big fish, you will need a big oceans. So if the development doesn't matter, no matter how much developed, even if the science developed, I think the science if the science much more developed, I think they will develop to to prove the Buddhist teaching is correct. So I'm not afraid to give love.
Host 1:49:00
And why do you think it was that in Saffron Revolution, we saw the movement guided by so many monks who took part. And this time around, it doesn't seem like the monks are so involved. Of course there are, are many people like you who are standing up and speaking out, but it doesn't seem to be getting as much attention as what we saw in saffron. Do you think that's a problem with the media, not reporting it and not giving that attention? Or do you think that the monastic participation in this democratic movement since 2021, has not been at the same par As the same level as Safra?
Ashin Kovida 1:49:37
I feel uncomfortable to talk about the monkey you know, because Saffron Revolution. Yeah, like you said, a lot of monks participate involve, but to turn to turn to one's not many monks participate. Like we talked in because my Bata many monks, a fear of RSA, they do not support the NLD and democracy. They, they thought so 2007 the international communities they, they, they saw the peaceful monks protesting on the streets, chanting meta Ahsoka, and so on. And so the military is brutally brutally crackdown on peaceful marching monks then say the military wanted they they really want to change that views. So they want to show that the monks are not peaceful the manga What the what was said to peaceful monks are not true. So they, I think, arrange they formed my Bertha and then say support Baba. And then they when they say, Hey, HP, the monks who made a speech, and an extremist mouth comes out that I would say, the military Hunter's dreams came true that the Mahabharata may make the military want us drinking true. Their dream is that what the world saw that the monks are peaceful monk 2007 who were oppressed killed by the military. So now the military show the what you say the peaceful monks are not really peaceful? They are extremist. So this is also Morrissey English sin. And cue with one stone has killed two birds with one stone. Right? So that they could show that the monks are not peaceful and extremists. And then they I'd say they could pass rate they could when I say to take amongst the amongst take the sight of the militaries.
Host 1:52:33
And I appreciate all the time you've taken with us. I know it's it's late there. And we'll close in a moment. And before we do I, I just want to ask you, I think there are many people listening now that are Buddhists and meditators from other countries outside of Myanmar, perhaps they've gone on pilgrimage, or taking retreats or their meditation lineage comes from Myanmar. And they're listening to this with interest and perhaps wanting to know what they can do from their place of not that much influence, but perhaps a good heart to be able to help Myanmar win and go forward in the right way, you know, and promote the right kind of Buddhism and the right kind of progressive open critical teachings that were the ones that planted the seed of the whole mindfulness movement that has since spread around the world, so much of that originated in Myanmar, and it's gotten into such a more constricted and hateful and fearful kind of mode. And so for those foreigners who have some type of meditation practice or some interest or respect in Buddhist teachings, is there anything they can do? Is there anything you'd like to speak to them?
Ashin Kovida 1:53:47
Yes, I want to speak I want to request all the listeners, the audience of your your broadcast, to give attention, more attention to the Burmese people, the Burmese people want democracy and human rights and peaceful, like everybody. So get more informations and give the information to your government and ask the government to support or receive the people the people in Burma were struggling for freedom and democracy. And we also do not to give up, we will struggle. We will work until we reach what we want. Which is freedom and democracy peaceful in Burma
Host 1:54:55
and what can we do from our side to be able to promote and bring out and listen to more voices like yours which are balancing and challenging these much more hateful, fearful Buddhist hoarse voices that have gotten so much media attention as well as the the false Buddhist propaganda that the military itself is putting out with this large Buddhist statue outside of Naypyidaw and the other kinds of Buddha's methodology and, and false beliefs that they're putting out there. Yeah, I
Ashin Kovida 1:55:26
want to speak to all the media's too and there are many monks who want to have the opportunity to speak out against the military hunters and then extremists monks here which is against the Buddha's teaching removed from the Buddha's teaching. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak
1:56:07
stand up Stand up for your get up Stand up. Don't give up the preacher man don't tell me his own do the I know you don't know. It's really he said all that glitters is gold. Half that story never been told. So now you see the lie. Stand up for your life. Stand stand up for your I'll
Joah 1:56:57
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