Transcript: Episode #250: A Critical Junction
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Host 0:19
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Host 1:57
All right, we are happy to kick off this episode of insight Myanmar podcast in the sea junction here in Bangkok. And I would like to ask my esteemed guests to introduce herself and her background. Yes,
Rosalia Sciortino 2:09
I am Alia Shortino Rosalia Shortino. But everyone called me Lea and I am the director, the founding director of C junction. C junction is actually under a foundation, the foundation for Southeast Asian studies which I established and is the main activity is C junction as a public thing to better understand what is happening in Southeast Asia. Thank
Host 2:35
you for that. And before we get into what kinds of events and mission of your organization, can you tell us a bit about yourself and how you came to care about Myanmar and being involved in this cause
Rosalia Sciortino 2:52
I it started a long time ago, Italian by your region. And then I studied all and anthropology and development sociology. And of course, the internet study of cultural anthropology is about other people, particularly what is called the developing world at the time. So then I did my research in Indonesia. And then I started to work in Indonesia. And since then, basically since 9393 Up to today, I have been working in Southeast Asia first with the Ford Foundation. Then I was Regional Director with the Rockefeller Foundation. And then again Regional Director with IDRC. So we fund that many programs in Southeast Asia and including in a Myanmar since even when Myanmar was a closed at the time, we manage to do some grantmaking insight Myanmar with some partner and later on, of course, when it's open up, we also participated in that funding different kinds of programs related to health, education, agriculture, gender, etc.
Host 4:08
So you've had a long standing personal relationship with Myanmar, even though you been experienced in the overall Southeast Asian region. What about Myanmar, particularly among all these country has pulled at you in such a way?
Rosalia Sciortino 4:23
Well, because I say I started to work when I was with the regional director, and we're the program on the Mekong region and it was important, the focus of the program was on Transnational issue. So to deal with transnational issue now, like in the few in the past, it's important to include all members of south of the Mekong region and of course, Myanmar is a very important part of that area, that geographic area, which at the time was a CSA there was the embargo so it was quite difficult Particularly for us foundation to web program in that area. And maybe that challenge already stimulated us to focus on that we were interested on issues of migration of trafficking, of cross border health. Even if at the time you know, even before SARS and avian flu, we start to give attention to those issues. So we also found that network of groups working on communicable disease, and that included also people from the Ministry of Health, who now are the frontline of the civil disobedience movement. So in 20 years, I had the pleasure to see many things develop, not always for the better, but this is the privilege when you stay for a long time in the region. So the challenge of Myanmar the issue of fight for democracy is something which has always been of interest and passion. And I believe in social justice, and this kind of issues, social justice in all this manifestation. So for sure, Myanmar deserve Particular attention for this, but also because of the culture, the people, etc, is also fascinating. It's not the country I know the most I knew the most. Now in this years, of course, with T junction, we have done a lot of programs. So I have come to know more and more I start as Indonesian specialists. So now I worry a lot about what is happening in Indonesia also. But this interest for our democracy, develop our civil society develop as the core to my work as well as my interest. And both this issue are extremely relevant.
Host 7:00
So that is interesting that you come from more of an expertise in Indonesia, because that is often used as a contrast to the direct to directory that Myanmar is going in terms of a military led country that is trying to have a rather rough and uneven transition into something other than a military regime. Indonesia has been referenced as one possible pathway to that. So as someone who is so familiar with Indonesia's history and current events, and also now involved in Myanmar, how would you contrast these two scenarios
Rosalia Sciortino 7:35
I have never buy into this idea because this optimism about Indonesia is, as I think misplaced, and we are seeing now with the current election, why I am saying this because the presence of the military has never been really dealt with. So the issue of impunity. Unfortunately, it's very present in Indonesia, as is present in Thailand, as in President Myanmar. And that is part of the problem that these countries have never dealt with the past and never brought just this to the victims of abuses and Indonesia is many abuses starting from 65. There was a mass killing of people accused of being communists, then later on the were abused to during the Suharto regime in attractive or less the time was the Mortimore, etc. And now and we have kidnapping of activist riots of Jakarta, so many, many, there are many other example of human rights recognized human rights abuse, which never have been dealt with. And the people who are in charge today are still related somehow not Jacoby percent the current president, but all they are the end, the next president of Indonesia, of course, is also part of the Suharto history. So but at the time, the comparison was about the parliamentarian, you know, to kind of change the role of the military and to ensure that was more similar to that Indonesia, that they will no longer really use force, but they would more support the parliamentarian process that has been to up to a certain point, and now we are seeing an effort to come back and go back to the so called griefing. See, which is the double function of the military as military as well as in civil and parliamentarian life. And that is, of course, dangerous. So I'm not sure to Indonesia unfortunately, I can be used as an example For sure.
Host 10:03
But then as you would contrast the two countries and contexts, how would you what similarities and convergences do you find in those two,
Rosalia Sciortino 10:10
then I think that Myanmar is exceptional in the level of resistance that we are seeing for this region. Yeah, I think now we are seeing that the old populations base, not the old population, but a large section of the population is against the coup. And if Myanmar manage to indeed win, this battle, eventually will be a significant example for other countries in the region. As you know, Thailand, as well, the Philippines, they're all struggling at this moment, with issue of democracy, even if elected. So the difference, of course, with Myanmar is that the military are there with a coup. In the case of other country, we still have authoritarian regime, but formally elected through various mechanisms and manipulation of the electoral process. So but still remain authoritarian. So if indeed, Myanmar manage to win, and this is why other governments in the region I think are also watching what is happening in Myanmar closely.
Host 11:27
Right. So that's another question given that you deal with the overall Southeast Asian region. Often, we're seeing that within Myanmar is not just having an effect in the borders, but obviously outside as well. So segwaying off of your last point, what is depending on the way that things go? The struggle between freedom and democracy and tyranny and corruption and military, depending on the way this struggle goes? What impact or message do you think that sends to the region?
Rosalia Sciortino 11:55
I think it's you know, in Thailand, that is, Thailand, particularly is affected by what is happening in Myanmar is affected in multiple ways, positive and negative. I think a lot of Myanmar people are bringing money to Myanmar to start with their buying apartment, they are investing in this country. But also there is a lot of people who had to leave everything in the country. And now they are in Thailand, and they are having difficulty finding a job and finding security from the way to live and livelihoods, etc. There are also the migrant community, the original migrant community will were there. So there are also bombing on the border. And so there are many issue and there is issue of trafficking, cyber trafficking. And we know that that has also expanded, taking advantage of the situation now, so all these impacts on Thailand, but for instance, cyber trafficking also impacts on other countries in the region, there are many Indonesian there are many Malay and other that have become victim of that. So for sure it is of relevant what is happening there now is relevant to the rest of the region, there is the issue, the issue of influence of China, how China is going to react, how China is reacting to all this, that is again, an issue of relevance to other countries in the region. We are seeing a civil war with all the negative impact even if we need at the moment, but still a lot of people are dying. And there is trafficking of arms and other which again, as an impact on so there are many different issue. And I think at this point, the ASEAN countries should start really to talk more with the other party. And that is I know, they have done this informally here and there. But I think a more systematic interaction with the government, legitimate government should be I think, timely at this point. Particular because what is happening currently in Myanmar, where it seems that the the ethnic armies, as well as the PDF are gaining ground, still not far from the complete country. But there are areas that are now under the control of the ethnic armies and the PDF so that it's time to start to have a dialogue. So that is one, let's say negative impact from the government point of view from the other government. point of view. The other one is what I say for civil society movements and movement for democracy, they can see this as a positive development because as I say, if the democracy movement we in Myanmar that will be important for that.
Host 15:21
So you've referenced how you have a 20 year history of familiarity with Myanmar and a unique, even more even more a unique kind of a unique kind of familiarity that is not just paying attention in a passive way to the events, but funding all kinds of programs throughout that time and watching what's possible in the impacting from generation generation. And you referenced how you've seen the changes, both good and bad over the cycle. So I wonder if you can go into your relationship with the country? And what kinds of changes and transformations of both kinds you've seen from the start of your relationship until today?
Rosalia Sciortino 15:59
Yeah, first of all, I think that there are always we have interacted with people that always believed in the values of democracy, as well as social justice, gender, justice, etc. These are the group that were funded, as I say, a part of regional network. So I have always had the privilege to really interact with people that even in constraints condition that was before the opening up of the country, they were already committed to many of the issues that we are talking today. And from that, then I have seen them that all that the new government would doing, I remember I went at the time, I was the Regional Director for IDRC. And we went with the Canadian ambassador to Bangkok, and my Vice President and other people in a mission to Myanmar to see because as you know, that western country were very eager to come back to Myanmar. And they also share the hope that Myanmar would be developed into gradually to a full democracy. And so yeah, the the honor to be part of that, in a small way of seeing our this eagerness, although there were always voices, as you know, that say that was premature that we couldn't believe the military and couldn't believe the awkwardness. But I think in the end, it was convenient for many to believe that this was going to happen. And indeed, in the beginning, it seemed that was going to happen. Then, the next phase, if I can rush through was when I was no longer as founder, but I see junction, and that is when there are Inga Exodus up then, actually, in the first event of C junction, when it was established, almost seven years ago was about Myanmar, by chance. And that was about the pipeline that was being built and all the controversy about Chinese rolling, Myanmar, etc. That was the first but the second was about big event was about the exodus of the Rohingya. We did a number of photo exhibition and other related to so that was, of course, in my view, a sad moment, because then is when ethnic tensions, which we know are everywhere in the countries of Southeast Asia and even in Europe, unfortunately, but they're clearly we saw our orrible is when this tension when and how even answer chi was not able really, to play a role in the defense of the Rohingya minority. And many still went along with saying that they were not throwing the word Bengali I think that was a general feeling in the country as well, unfortunately, among many international organization that were willing to go along with the Myanmar government and not call the rowing, rowing and all this just to be able to work into the country. So that I think was already a sign of disease or malaise of the society as such. And I think in the end, also it weakened at UC San su chi in the sense as we see now that she doesn't have the support that she would have had from the international community, otherwise, and then of course, the last stage of the position of the military that clearly now we are seeing the coop since three years. So I have gone through all this in a sense in different role interacted with Myanmar people, Myanmar organization, you're my donor, un etc, in as well as academic community through this long period and scene of this is I think, a privilege of being elderly, right. I mean, you see how this faces change. And if of course, Myanmar did it one time they can do it another time that is the optimistic view. But of course, we are also aware I think like you are aware that the challenge mainly in terms of ethnic for instance, now the American army victory what it imply for for that or what, what it will imply that I should that needs to be watched.
Host 21:04
So in that time of watching the trajectory and movement of Myanmar these last several decades, looking at now in 2024, what would you say has changed and what has stayed the same?
Rosalia Sciortino 21:15
Yeah, unfortunately, as you know, the military are still there. At constant, though, there was the hope that they would go eliminate at some point, but they have never really, as you know, the parliament was controlled by the military, which by the way, was a Suharto was an Indonesian creation. I mean, Indonesia during Suharto, the majority was with the military, they had a certain number of seats. It's only later on that those seats were eliminated. So that was very much in line with what Indonesia had done. In the past. So still, the was Salvador democracy or a semi democracy at the time. But of course, there was four, but the military were still there. So I would say this is a constant, the ethnic relation, at the moment seems that there is more willingness to try to work together until the military will be one until the June dice. Sand kicked out. But what then, right, because, of course, there are a lot of armies, if you know that are about 200. I don't know how many different army if you really count on the PDF, and I am not an expert in military issue, but it seems there is a large number of army and later on the we'd love to be all kinds of transitional justice approach and the armament. And so it's going to be very and ethnic issue to resolve among different the return of the Rohingya from Bangladesh. So there are big challenge and but there is a willingness, greater willingness to cooperate among different groups since at the moment, I said that would be the positive sigh. So it's a constant. I mean, this tension are there. They are not gone away, but at the moment seems they are more willingness to deal with that.
Host 23:35
So you've also talked about the various grants that you've funded over the years you must have worked with some very innovative projects, some very interesting actors and seen things develop. Is there an anecdote or a case study you can give us that might be of interest to our listeners?
Rosalia Sciortino 23:51
I think the Mekong disease surveillance Bacin is one example. Which included as I say that the government but we are talking about the Ministry of Health and particular that communicable disease departments have six. So it was the first time that including China, Yunnan, Yunnan Province, was part of this network and very timely because it was before the SARS and before avian flu and before unfortunately, was not too effective or to use although it still continued to play a role during COVID 19. But it also dealt with many communication of disease at the community level, not only at the, at the national level, which is often very important, including malaria and other disease. So that I think was very important and as you know, the Minister of Health is on the front line was on the front line of the opposition to the coop I So you see, and many actually I have also the privilege of teaching. So I teach at my dorm and Chulalongkorn. So I also have many students that are in the field of public health and demography and social science. And so they are disseminated now many in Thailand as refugees. So that is another way of interacting also with the country. Now another project is again the Macomb Macomb migrants network, which again, tried to monitor the flows of migrants in the region and has done many interventions related to migrants, we also add cultural programs. And so related to books library. And as well, as you know, there is a reading culture in Myanmar, on the street with so many books. So we have also supported some NGO that worked on social science and research. And yeah, so I think it's really I mean, it's, it's varied, because we are different program, dealing with different and I was overseeing the overall program. So that was from 2000 2007, with the Rockefeller Foundation, and then later 2010 2014, with IDRC, IDRC. programs still continue. They're quite still involved in in Myanmar. Although the office in Singapore where I was the regional director is no longer there. So So yeah, so there are many different example but also issue of gender support to the woman groups as well as later on. This is later I mean, not in the initial time, I'm talking the woman group actually out. So in the beginning, we have supported a number of women group and reports that they have done. And as well as later on, I think LGBTQI. Yeah, that is later when our ad was opened.
Host 27:25
Tell us about that. Tell us about how support for those groups went and the movements that they were trying to foster?
Rosalia Sciortino 27:31
Yeah, as you know, is, there is also a you can see also in the fight to the Giunta, the LGBTQI plus plus or non binary or whatever the terminology we want to use, they have been on the front line at great risk, I think at great risk in the sense that as you know, sexual violence is very rife, when people are arrested, tortured, and this is for a woman as well as a transgender woman, unfortunately, but not withstanding all this risk, really, they were very presence and we started to work with some of this group muscle with HIV AIDS. That was initially I think, for most of the country of Southeast Asia, it has been now so the trajectory over the decades, so initially, it really more Enel objective. But of course, also to if you want to address HIV AIDS, you also need to empower such groups. So that was part of the work of NGOs, and then later on, it became more really in terms of rights without need to link it to a knelt objective. And that is what has been happening in the last few years before the coop, I think so the involvement from the let's say, in the 2000 in the beginning, which was mostly HIV AIDS relate and now that is clearly more rights relate before the the Act. Now is still the acceptance is still not there. Still a lot of work needs to be done to really accept is not the level of Thailand that just passed. Right. I think Thailand that Thailand and Vietnam actually Vietnam is also quite advanced in terms of civil union, although I am not sure in that practice, how far it is implemented. But Myanmar is still a process in is still not fully inclusion, but I think there has been work done before the coop up and we can see If all organized they were during the opposition to the job, and
Host 30:05
how have you seen that growth of gender equality, feminism, rights for people of different sexual orientations? You mentioned that's a more recent development and you have an institutional history Myanmar going back many years and decades. So how did you see the growth of those concepts and values starting to grow?
Rosalia Sciortino 30:23
Yeah, here we have done so yeah, it because I'm talking about different periods of time is, but recently, we teach tension we have done for instance, and event on manholes, which was in collaboration with salween Institute, as well as the woman Federation, Federation of bitmax is, so is an that clearly was focusing on the fact that even in the democracy movement, still, there are issues of not full participation, a smaller sample, I mean, manual is not the most important things, it's been all that are all of men, right, this is what but this symbol is a reflection, that still equity is not fully implemented within even within the democracy movement. But the the good things I mean, this is, of course, it's a process. So, all over the world still, we are not about full equality or full inclusion, but but the ideology, which I liked from the from the beginning of the democracy movement, the spring revolution was very clear that the new beermann Anti patriarchy is an integral part of the new beermann. So the new beermann cannot be patriarchal. So gender equity and social inclusion are an integral part of the new Burma democratic Burma of the future. So I think the ideology is very good. And it's very inspiring also for other parts of Southeast Asia who don't link. So there I see the maturity of the woman movement and other movements, that gender movements because if you see that in the in the conceptualization is very clear. So military power is the extreme form of patriarchy. So that needs to be dismantle, dismantle the military needs to live as well as patriarchy has to be dismantled in society for aiming a new Burma. And I think this is, yeah, is a very important framework that can be used also for other countries in this region and EU still don't link. So let's say democratic movement in Indonesia will not necessarily imply also inclusion for LGBTQI maybe gender equity up to a level but then not necessarily diversity, respect of diversity knowledge for although some groups do that, I think in the case of Myanmar is clearly formulated that way there will be between vision and supplementation of division still far.
Host 33:38
But it's been you've seen signs of good progress towards now you've seen little sea change.
Rosalia Sciortino 33:44
And movement is very strong, actually, I was in Shanghai one of this seminar recently. And the if you see there was one speaker, Dr. Meyer will show the history of the woman in Myanmar is it goes back to under even anti the colonial time. And then during the war, the Second World War, there were a woman on the front line there was the suffragette movements, feminist movement in Myanmar. So, if you see the history is still there, but as usual, the woman is there is always kind of covered up and not many know about, but if you start to study about then you will see that actually there has always been feminist movement in Myanmar is not coming from western country necessarily, and our days are very strong. And of course, the woman Federation of Burma is a very good example of different woman organization coordinating.
Host 34:53
Can you tell us about that organization and what they do?
Rosalia Sciortino 34:57
Yeah, basically is the all ethnic groups A woman organization from different ethnic group collaborating today together, advocating for all kinds of issue related to gender equity and woman empowerment. And they have done this consistently for decades. They have produced very important report. I know because I was a bit involved with that. But one very seminal report has been the one about rape as tool of war, which was, I think, in the two times 2004, something like that, around that, that time and since then, they have really come up with very important research and documentation of the condition of women, and particularly about issue of sexual violence and abuse, use of sexual violence, to fight against ethnic community, they also also have been very solider to the Rohingya. They were one of the few group woman groups actually the defendant, there are Inga contrary to some other civil society, organization and media. So I think and now I have interacted with them on a number of we had an exhibition on the woman in the democracy, monument movement immediately after the coop and the photography were provided. A one part was provided by the movement League, the woman League of Burma, so and they provided all the photograph of demonstration that all over the country were done by their members. So again, linking reproductive rights, woman rights, as well as democracy rights together and human rights all together in the same demonstration. So again, I think this linkages between human rights and human rights are produced are very important.
Host 37:15
So this you really see this as a revolution, the true sense of the word what's going on right now.
Rosalia Sciortino 37:21
I think has the potential to be okay. Yeah, I think to be released is the potential to be a revolution. I think the the conceptualization, the initial conceptualization, immediately after the Democrat the fight the spring revolution, immediately there when there was this conceptualization that the consultation broad consultation with different civil society for a sector of society, this is promising now, I am aware that there are concerns that not all the groups are accepted in the same way not women are not necessarily put at the same level as as men or is but the fight I mean, the initial condition are there. So that now of course, there will be power those leaf easily sorry, is ingrained. So but at least the framework is there, and there is the potential for that. And you see that blue men are still very much active, as in the energy that are very capable woman as ministers. And other label you also see that women are in on the LGBTQ sides. I know that are some involved, but again, more needs to be done to include them at all level. I mean, that is the issue, how to include them in all kinds of levels from the lowest to the highest and not only as participant but as decision makers.
Host 39:10
And that is going to take some over something in the West. We haven't really figured out perfectly
Rosalia Sciortino 39:13
Yes, exactly. I mean, we are far from and the most also one of the most horrible in my view issue that is coming up in the west right xenophobia and Red Seas. I think we ever see it in Europe is coming is racist rising all over with right party taking over. So this is also a challenge to be inclusive for all ethnic group in Myanmar. That would be another big challenge, but at least the intention is that which was not the case right before Yeah,
Host 39:54
yeah. So tell us now about your work at sea junction tell us what seed junction is what its mission and events are and what your role in it is.
Rosalia Sciortino 40:03
Yeah, so C junction is a public venue. I mean, starting from the awareness from my funding days, where there is a lot of information out there, but often it doesn't reach the general public, I see junction was born out very simple at the time idea of, okay, if people don't come to us, we have to go to the people. So the idea was to establish a Knowledge Center, a public venue in a public space. So the Bangkok Arts and Culture Center is, of course, a very public place, there are hundreds of people 1000s of people coming every day, and they many are Thai people, they don't need to pay any entry ticket. So it's really public. And it has a kind of freedom as a public space where issue social issue also can be addressed. social political issue, they are very tolerant and they don't interfere with the program, I give them a credit about that. So we rented the space at the time was out of what you see. So it was very small. And we start to do discussion, public discussion to on different SSA, the first one was on Myanmar, by chance, because this researcher appeared to come to Thailand. So we invite him to speak and I will not mention is the sale don't even at the moment, but more and more we start to do event and then we start to do also exhibition using the space that you see around so not only inside our space, but also using the ACC space and art exhibition, as well as photo exhibition, I think are extremely powerful to reach a general public that don't know much about the situation and also have some empathy for so not only the mind is moved, but also awfully also the awareness and empathy of the people that see it is stimulated. And we have seen that indeed they work quite quite well in doing so. I mean, I am not saying they're going to change their attitude, but at least that will be one element that together with other information that will get will make them more caring about this issue. So we since the coop, but as I say even before with the Rohingya issue, another issue related to Myanmar, but with the coop we have been very consistent too because SSA I believe that what is happening on Myanmar is of relevance for the entire region. And therefore, we have started with a series of talks the updates on Myanmar what is happening in Myanmar now we have done 40 or something Wow. So you can see that first will be weekly. And then now they are a monthly we start with Anzahl from Irrawaddy, then was kin Omar, then was de be stolen from Alcyone and now is lads Tao from Mishima news. So we have a resource person and then the resource person give a kind of update what is been happening in the last weeks and then people can ask and answer a very simple format one hour but now we have seen the number of people that follow decrease. Although thank you with the collaboration with me Seema in the last episode actually we have very high reach on Facebook, but on the zoom you you can see that there is less interest compared to the initial phase where there was a lot of interest but we still continue to do so to document because at the end is going to be a very good documentation of what is happening during all this year because we have done it since the very beginning and since the very beginning and so we have done all kinds of exhibition related to Myanmar, on the democracy as well as they are the resilience the soul showing not only the negative side of the coop, but also the resilience of of people of Myanmar.
Host 44:57
What kinds of exhibitions have you done and shown Well, he said,
Rosalia Sciortino 45:00
he said the first one was this one on the woman. I think the title was woman on the street for the spring revolution. And that was about all kinds of demonstration woman demonstration and including transgender woman of which one was did the performance there is a beautiful photograph of air doing a performance during the demonstration that later on was addressed that she was LGBTQI activist and later on, she was also arrested. But so the the photograph are about the CDL movement, as well as the student protest as well as woman in the rural area. Because as I say, we collaborate with a woman league of women. So we got all kinds of photograph, we also collaborate with another group of photographer and they also gave shared. So that was one another one was about refugees on the border of Thailand, this is from for Myanmar photographer. Together, we come back compiled together and give a very good overview of what was happening on on the border. Another one was an artist from Argentina will basically use some of the most common most known photograph of the demonstration and painted later on, I can show you the catalog and painted and we did very big on this wall. So very impressive. The most recent was an exhibition by Chu Lai, who is a famous Myanmar woman artists who currently is abroad. And that exhibition we have also brought from here to Chiangmai. And now it's going to a mall in Bangkok great, so very popular a mall. Thanks to be SEC that they are starting a program BSEC pop art in that law. So they have asked us to provide for exhibition. Another exhibition was about COVID. The COVID was about COVID in Southeast Asia and social protection and that included also Myanmar, very tragic photographs of, of basically that during the pandemic, so also the election, which took part during the pandemic, and then the coop, during the pandemic occurred, all of that and we had very good photographer from done we than where I am not sure about the provenance but is Myanmar photographer who is now in dialogue. And you will also be the next exhibition, which is a combination of an artist and a photographer. And this next exhibition, the first is textile art by Psy and basically it's about his father being a political prisoner. It was the chef Minister of Shan State. And yeah, so it's about is the lack of press the absence of the father in the house where they used to leave. And the other one is about the tattoo of revolutionary tattoo of people against against the coop again. So it's a photograph of various young people and older people with different kinds of tattoo. All Symbols of resistance basically.
Host 49:01
So your work is mainly based in Bangkok and Thailand, you also have events. So how would you characterize living in Thailand and knowing what's going on in Myanmar the understanding or reception or interest in of among Thai people and people in this region to the crisis in Myanmar next door?
Rosalia Sciortino 49:22
Yeah, I think we also do exhibition sometime when we can afford to we have brought some of the exhibition to other parts of, of Southeast Asia and including one time I'll see Nairobi with a un event, we had an exhibition on textile art from Africa and Asia combined on sexual reproductive health. So our kind of exhibition is always art but for social change, so to characterize or for political change, it's always as some kind of issues. Beyond is not pure art. So to say so is social art or protest art? It has been defined in many different ways. So going back to your question, Thailand compared to the other country know much more about what is happening in Myanmar. Unfortunately, in other countries still, there is a lack of awareness, but not only in other country, I was in New York recently. And, yeah, if you talk with people, they don't, I mean, the mind is now gas. And gas. Of course, Gaza is a major issue is really genocide to be what is happening is intolerable, really. But it doesn't take away that also other issues should be taken into account that people don't seem really to know much about what is happening in, in Myanmar. Now, that is, the people I interact with are people who you could say have a certain education of a certain they are engaged in international issues, they are often connect to the United Nations and other international organization. But still, I found that depressing a little bit in that solito, they know that there is trouble, they know that there is a group that still is not really on there, rather, so to say now in Southeast Asia, I think is a similar situation for the rowing, there is more awareness. But it's often seen as a problem for the region, because as you I'm sure you follow the news like Indonesia now is not as accepting as it used to be to work there or India. So the people demonstrating against them, Malaysia is also at the moment stop all kind of acceptance of migrants. And Thailand, of course, don't want f India migrants on the board. So they let them go too far. growth risk. So often, that is an issue that they know more than the whole rest of what is happening in Myanmar. Now that I of course, even society group will care a lot, and we'll try their best to promote but it's not an issue that come up. For instance, in the presidential debate. In Indonesia, recently there was not on foreign there was like on Foreign Affairs, there was not much about what is happening in Myanmar and what ASEAN should do, or, but of course, Indonesia is very inside looking busy being such a big country, but I think more needs to be done to really educate the public about something like we are doing here should be done also in other areas in other countries to really, because at the end, ASEAN as you know, is useless is not the good way to define. It has not been and there are concerned now that they would start to accept representative of Myanmar already the Minister of Foreign Affairs. And then of course, they will try to really include again, Myanmar as if nothing is happening. And I think there needs to be pressure from civil society groups and from other part of the population now in Thailand. Finally, I think they're starting to pay at the political level, they're starting to pay more attention to what is happening, mostly because of concern. With the conscription in Myanmar, and that may imply more people coming into Thailand, and they have an ambiguous attitudes toward that. On one side, they don't want on the other side the benefit also from so it's a mixed attitude, which back so far they have done no special policy to include. I think it's maybe time also to think about what kind of policy See that can give a special status to all these young people coming from Myanmar so that it's easier for them to live in, in Thailand. Another issue is the monetary system that has to go through Thailand, as you know, that has been recently but through the Myanmar Red Cross, which is not ideal with government representatives. And again, that is not a good idea when you are dealing with displaced people in ethnic area or safe area, then it's not the best way to channel aid to this area. But these two issues are of relevance to the Thai government, of course, so they have to, recently as you I'm sure, you know, there was a meeting at Parliament House initiated by the move forward party and we participated with a collection actually of exhibition, meaning small part of for exhibition, one on Cartoon, we adults on the first year of the coop, a very nice exhibition, together with three fingers were collected all kinds of cartoon imaginary of the coop, so we updated that we did one year of the coop through cartoons. And so that was there. One part one part was from the two way exhibition and one part from the refugee exhibition. And so, people will come to the meeting outside location, there was also another exhibition by some another organization very good, and they themselves and the whole history of Myanmar. So that was important, but because was the opposition party, you know, the government was not there, basically, I am sure that we're meeting around with which we are not aware of, but but still it was important that was at Parliament House symbolically, I think for all the people who came was of importance that finally there was something like this at Parliament 10 official, a government institution. So Thailand, I think they know more also because of the direct impact that is aiming on the country but much more can be done.
Host 57:36
And how about the Burmese that are in Bangkok and Thailand I'm sure you must come in contact with many of them at the exhibition at sea junction and just through your community friends as well what can you say about their experience in being away from home and trying to gain their freedom while they're here?
Rosalia Sciortino 57:52
Yeah, I see you know, that are different guy in the US, I mean, the people that come from that come from Myanmar, there are many different communities right, I mean, you have the migrants who were already here, but they also have been very heavily involved in the, in the struggle for democracy by sending remittance as well as demonstrating in front of the UN at great risk for them, because they are temporary in diamond. So, they can be also set back anytime and they continue to be active in the movement, but then there are the political prisoner, the political activists that are very well recognized and that probably are going to be relocated to a third country whenever Thailand give permission for them to relocate then there are many CDM mer that are mostly my thoughts or Chiang Mai and then there are all kinds of other people who came here by flight and they are studying or they are trying to find some other ways of surviving in Thailand. So the experience are not the same for everyone depending on your finances, depending on your political status. So to say you have different level of acceptance in Thai in Thai society, I must say in general, from the point of view of people they are quite what they themselves would say is that from the point of view of people to people relation is quite okay. Right okay. At least this is what of course, there is always some discrimination, but that is mostly I think, from organization or other more more structural Institute rather than individual person in the sense of, of course, some are against profiting from. Right, I mean, the price of the hours in the rent in the areas where there are a lot of of refugees, or newcomers, the newcomers as they are called maybe goes up. At the same time, there is a lot of extra food now offer of food. So I mean, many of them are integrated, I saw in Chiangmai, for instance, is quite integrated into the daily life. Maybe it's not the case in Bangkok as a big city. But in Shanghai, myself, of course, my thought is very, very Burmese right in many regards. But still, there are issue of not easy for them to live far from the family. That is one big issue. They have concern about the safety of the family. For those more political I think the worry about the family, they also worry about being identified. So here also, we also have to remind people that everything is broadcast. So if they have concerns about but it's a dilemma, you know, the not want to be seen, but at the same time, also want to be identified for the work that they do. They do. So it's always Yeah, not easy to to make a choice whether you want to be seen or not, are not seen. Now, I think in the first year, of course, there was a lot of optimism that they could go back soon. Yeah. And now is the the cannot go back soon. So that is, I think for some is quite depressing.
Host 1:02:11
There have been some armies that have expressed to me that they have this fear that they're turning into the ADA generation that the ADA generation thought they were on the cusp of a victory, and then things got a bit scary and dangerous. And so then they went abroad thinking that it was a temporary thing. And then they stayed there several decades and raised families and had to settle in new places. And I've heard people in this generation have a growing fear that that they're what they see is just kind of a temporary reprieve somewhere else to commit themselves fully to winning back their freedom. That what if what if this becomes decades, and suddenly they find themselves not going back for 20 years to their home soil?
Rosalia Sciortino 1:02:52
Yeah, I think this is real fear. For some, some of them. I also see some optimism of the situation is going to change. I mean, mainly follow the news very closely. And then every small things that happen is already a sign of depression or is optimists, right? Like the core scription, of course, is making many worry because they have family and friends and others and that each group, so that is a very big, it's been a very big at the same time, whenever there is a victory of, of ethnic groups or at done immediately, they see it as Oh, this year is going to happen. And we are going to go back. So but it's now three years. And you can see the mood has changed, really. Compared to the first year when there was really the optimist. That wouldn't be a quick, but that's interesting realisation that. No, it's not so quick.
Host 1:04:00
Yeah. But it's interesting, though, because there was an optimism then, but the news in some ways has actually gotten better. I mean, most people I mean, it's terrible. And as awful as those atrocities are, you are hearing more and more analysts come out and say that the pathway to victory is getting slimmer and slimmer for the military and looking. We don't know how long or how bloody it's going to take but looking better for the resistance. And so it is interesting that as the prognosis starts to improve just the duration of time, the sacrifice, the exhaustion, the trauma, and everything else does lead to a lessening of the mood which would make sense. Yeah,
Rosalia Sciortino 1:04:36
I mean, I think we need to also realize many of the people that are now outside, we're not politically that's true. They are not the same as the activist necessarily. I mean, some of them were just normal people, normal students or normal people who simply enjoy We, the, the period of freedom and they didn't want to go back to what was before, but they had not political history or a history of activities. And many of the one would demonstrated on the street were in that category. I meet many of them specially in the beginning, they were many would come here because they know there is activity or Myanmar going to volunteer or, and we are grateful to all those who helped us also with activity at the same time as a place where they could interact with other people in the end and not everyone at. So this is why I was saying there are many different communities, some will release an history of democratic work or work with NGO work for interfaith work, work or woman rights work for etc. But many of even among the CDM are many are not necessarily political as the same way. So the expectation was also, maybe at the beginning with the demonstration that we expect that that was enough, and when they turned because there was the face, right, if you see the the history of the demonstration, the first day was a lot of creativity and art. And yeah, I mean, when we have all these comics and fantastic creativity, but then it started to turn bloody. And that is something which many did not necessarily aspects. And then of course, they had to run so that suddenly the founder and situation that they had to run away. So still, the OP was still there, or they were going to fight for with the ethnic organization, few of them, but the one who came here were maybe not necessarily the one that had that political commitment, or stronger political commit or some ad political command, and they had contact or they had been students here or there are all kinds of situations. So in that sense, the analysis they've become much more informed about on the way in Thailand real in some case. In some case, in terms of analysis of the political situation, reality is really hit home, in reality, as well as their intelligence in terms of really intelligence of security issue of military issues of political issue of the history of Myanmar, etc, many of them really became very knowledgeable. Why now in these three years, I see that they are,
Host 1:08:04
I see, it's just you can't say enough about what they're doing, you know, just this professional, brutal military, that they are being so innovative, so creative, showing signs of solidarity, and making such sacrifices and committing to these ideals that are held in the in around the world, and yet receiving the not receiving any support really from those countries that hold those ideals sacred or from the media, international media and representing what they're doing. And instead, the the same time, the bad guys are getting supports from all the usual bad actors, and it's just an extraordinary and inspiring human drama that's playing out in front of us. That's why as with you, our platform is also trying to continue to give it that attention and humanity that it deserves. But it is it is hard, it is hard to go outside that bubble and we try every day with the work that we do and the interviews and the guests and the topics that we bring on to just reach one new listener one new person show them why this is something that they should care about not because not as a guilt trip that Don't you know that people are suffering and you have a duty to know what no one likes that and that that approach never works, but something as if you are if you are concerned about certain issues of humanity, we can go anything LGBT gender equality, environmental degradation, engaged Buddhism, natural resources, police brutality, relations with minorities and majorities, you can you can look at any lens poetry in the face of tyranny, hip hop, cinematography, any any of these lens you can go through. And if you care about these features, and these topics, they are happening right now in Myanmar in the most extreme of cases with the highest stakes possible and people putting their lives on the line for these ideals whichever of those ideals they are.
Rosalia Sciortino 1:09:57
Yeah, I mean, it's but on The other side you see, I am I just wrote this article, but it's in French on individual funding of because that is another interest of mine funding streams and, and clearly the all this revolution is funded by pre marriage right by individuals as individuals and that is quite exceptional again. So if you I mean, because of the international community being so absent of course, there are some donor who still keep funding but it's decreasing and because again priority are many and mix, but there are few, but the majority of the funding including for the armed struggle, which donor would not fund necessarily because they have limitation on the on what they can find. That is mostly by the migrant community, the diaspora community, the Myanmar community and that is quiet. Yeah, exceptional again, many creative ways have been used to raise funding for including by the energy through all kinds of applications. So yes, there is a shortage of international community attention there is and unfortunately, they have abdicated the management of this to ASEAN, which would make sense I mean, it looks very progressive to say this is Southeast Asian problem so Southeast Asian, resolve it, but knowing ASEAN, there, there is a problem and, and you cannot abdicate, you need to remain active and implement all kinds of sanctions and embargoes and all kinds of stop the sale of arms. And so there is a lot of work to be done internationally. But at the same time, we can see that the people of Myanmar really and this is why I think is a fantastic example for the rest of the age.
Host 1:12:23
We want to take a moment to introduce you to our nonprofit better Burma's online shop, which features handicrafts sourced from artists and communities scattered throughout Myanmar. Far from being mass produced knockoffs. The pieces we offer are unique and handmade, reflecting the wide diversity of different peoples found throughout the country. When Myanmar experienced its transition period moving from democracy in the late 2010s, after decades of harsh military dictatorship, many Burmese craftspeople hope their beautiful work could finally be appreciated beyond the country. When Myanmar experienced its transition period moving towards democracy in late 2010s. After decades of harsh military dictatorship, many Burmese crafts people hope their beautiful work could finally be appreciated beyond the country's borders. But sadly, this was not to be so. Following the military coup, many skilled artists in suddenly found all possibility of continuing their livelihood closed off and began struggling just to feed their families. With this in mind, we prioritize working with artisans from disadvantaged and vulnerable backgrounds, because we know just how hard it can be to survive at the margins of society and Myanmar. This includes such people as those with disabilities, mothers who have contracted HIV AIDS, civil servants on CDM ethnic and religious minorities and more. To view these wonderful pieces, please visit alokacrafts.com That's aloka crafts, A L O K A C R A F T S one word, alokacrafts.com. Otherwise, please consider a donation to our usual channels. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission Better Burma, and your donation you give on our insight me More website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at betterburma.org. That's betterburma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar available at alokacrafts.com Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's a local crafts spilled A L O K A C R A F T S one word alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.