Transcript: Episode #251: A Sacred Struggle
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Host 0:37
Hi there and thanks for listening. If you're enjoying our podcast and have a recommendation about someone you think that we should have on to share their voice and journey with the world, by all means, let us know. It could be an aid worker, monastic author, journalist, Doctor resistance leader, really anyone with some Thai or another to the ongoing situation and meanwhile, to offer up a name go to our website insight myanmar.org And let us know but for now just sit back and take a listen to today's podcast
1:31
everyone my way that I absolutely hate and is so upset about it
Host 2:03
For this episode of insight Myanmar podcast, we're joined by the author and scholar Alexandria, capital Unitas whose recent book baptizing Burma, Religious chants in the last Buddhist kingdom has come out, we'll be talking about this book and her background of research. Alexandra, thanks for taking the time to chat with us about your work.
Alexandra Kaloyanides 2:22
Thank you for having me. I like your subtitle better, I think it should be called Religious chants. And the last Buddhist Kingdom.
Host 2:28
Oh, I'm sorry.
Alexandra Kaloyanides 2:31
That does sound good. I actually originally was going to call the book, objects of conversion relics of resistance because it's so much about material culture. But the editors were like, no, no, no, that doesn't look good on a cover. But I think religious chance does look better. On the cover.
Host 2:46
I was literally holding the book, as I said that so I think I must have squinted on and I'm looking at it. Now the G does kind of look like a C, but it's my mistake. Yeah. So I first want to ask how you came to this topic? And I'm coming at that question, knowing that you were an editor at tricycle for some time before this. This is a magazine, whose main focus is the spread and practice of Buddhism, particularly in the West. And so how did you come to find interest in the spread and practice of Christianity in Burma, which can kind of be seen as the mirror image of this background with tricycle?
Alexandra Kaloyanides 3:22
Yeah. So even before tricycle, I had some interest in not only Buddhism, but Burmese Buddhism. I had the opportunity to go abroad my junior year of college and my first semester I was in India and the Antioch Buddhist studies program. This is the Burmese vi har. And they're not only did I get to study with mon engergy, through that program, which I was very lucky. But I also got to meet this wonderful the Cooney, who was originally from Myanmar. And so then when I was able to do an independent study, I was able to do a month long travel and I chose to go to Myanmar at the time to study Burmese women and nuns, specifically thinking about gender and Burmese Buddhism. So I had this interest from back in my undergrad years in Burmese Buddhism. And when I came back to the States, I actually ended up writing my senior thesis on the pasta movement, the modern Lawson movement, which I know is very interesting. Yeah. So it was it was something I was really thinking about a lot when I was in college, and then I had studied Asian and Middle Eastern cultures and Buddhism. And I ended up getting an internship actually at tricycle first. And then after I graduated, I started working in their editorial department. And I had studied Buddhism largely academically, although I'd spent a year in different Buddhist countries. So I had some sort of lived experience, but really, it was a more sort of academic framework. And when I worked at tricycle, I started learning about Buddhism and all these other ways, you know, the ways that it was practiced popularly and then also the specific one. Ways that Americans and Westerners were interested in Buddhism. And so when I wanted to, I worked there for six years, and I loved it. It was great. And I but I always wanted to go back to graduate school. So when I went to graduate school, I wanted to do some work in American religious history, some training in that discipline, as well as an Asian religion. So I still wanted to continue with Asian religions. But I was really interested in the American side, which I hadn't studied as much before. And so then when I got to graduate school, I was doing both things and looking for a project that brought these things together. And that's when I started finding out a little bit about this mission. And I became really fascinated with this idea of these young evangelical Americans who ended up sort of by accident and in Burma and sort of realized that I really wanted to tell that story because of the sort of way that I had come about as a as an American, you know, also young American who ended up in Burma and then thinking about this sort of longer history of Western fascination and confusion and conflict regarding Buddhism. And so that's sort of how I ended up at this project.
Host 6:04
That's really interesting. And speaking from my own experience, and looking at where these worlds come together, having myself I've spoken to hundreds of foreign meditators and monastics in Burma over the years, I've found that the ethnic Christian experience in Burma, it largely goes unseen and invisible, and were friends of mine have met Burmese or ethnic Christians, they've almost expressed to me some form of like amusement that they've left a Christian country themselves in the west, to go and practice Buddhism in Burma. And then they've encountered someone back from a Christian community. They just don't really expect it. Although of course, there are many people that are many Christians that have been there for a very long time. It's just not something in the awareness, especially for meditators. And you know, speaking personally, one of my closest friends in the country is a chin Christian. And she ended up going to study in Florida, I went to university there. And when she came back, we'd have these long conversations, contrasting just this divergence that she would express of her coming from a chin Christian community, and then trying to fit into Christian communities in the American South and the divergence that she faced, why would talk about my own difficulties in adjusting from coming from Western Dhamma communities and then integrating into Burmese Buddhist environments. And so you've also done work in your studies and your background and your life in terms of bridging these communities, both the religious communities, as well as in some cases when you're talking about a shared religion, but different cultural communities on different sides of the ocean coming together. And so what have you found through your just through your life experiences, as well as through your work of what it's been to try to look at where the similarities and divergences come along, when you're looking at different cultures and different cultural understandings of religion,
Alexandra Kaloyanides 7:57
you you put your finger on it, when you're saying there's really not that much sort of attention to the history and the lives of Christian communities in Myanmar, because when I when I first went, like, you know, when I was an undergrad, I don't, I didn't really pay much attention at all to Christianity, I was focused exclusively on Buddhism, I went, visited a few Catholic churches and said some prayers from my Catholic mom, you know, while I was going around, but otherwise, I didn't think about it. And when I came back and wanted to do more of the scholarship on it, I couldn't find much scholarship, the scholarship, I did find, you know, some of it dating to the British colonial period, would describe different communities that would convert maybe they would describe them, you know, in the kind of offensive language of being so gullible, you know, they just converted because the sort of missionaries tricked them, or they were uneducated, and then later scholarship, looking at the sort of material history side saying, well, these people were savvy and converted, because they wanted to feed their families, they wanted access to jobs in the colonial environment, they wanted English language skills, you know, so their relationship to Christianity was largely a kind of sort of strategy to access, you know, worldly resources. And then when I went back to Myanmar, to do research as a graduate student and started to meet different people, like people in the 10 community, the Korean community, the content community, I realized, wow, this was such a distorted way to be thinking about the history of these communities. You know, I think sometimes when we talk about religious encounter, or we think about, you know, we think about these, you know, we have a very clear picture, I think many of us have the the missionary, the kind of chauvinistic missionary that's very assertive and wants to go and change, you know, heathens into Christians, and they're very clear and sometimes they're very educated so they learn languages and think about different soteriology and worldviews, and so on. And then sometimes you think about oh, the occasional very impressive Buddhist who learns, you know, theology Christian theology. Philosophy and so on. But I was like, what about all these other people, these convert communities? Who? Yes, I'm sure they had very realistic thoughts about, you know, economy and social status. But they also had these questions about, you know, the nature of salvation and God's and freedom. And you were really trying to explore new and familiar religious world. And so that's where I started wanting to think differently about how a project like mine, which, you know, in some ways, a spread across a lot of different communities and a large amount of time, could still kind of take up these different, more minority religious experiences in light of both, you know, mainstream Buddhism in the country. And this real power of American Christian imperialism and missionary work, which is, both was was powerful at the time, but also has really been so strong in the stories we tell scholarly and popular about the sort of history of colonialism in Asia. And so I really wanted to think about that differently. And so that's where I started really being curious about Christianity. And I had to learn a lot. I mean, I mentioned my mom earlier, but you know, I hadn't really grown up spending a lot of time with Baptist communities, I grew up in the Northeast. And so when I started studying, this was the first time I really spent a lot of time and had to learn a lot of things about, you know, their approach and and also how different it was in different places. Not just, you know, America versus Myanmar, but you know, urban versus rural, you know, Qur'an versus chin.
Host 11:29
And so, right, yeah, there certainly is a lot to unpack there, and not a lot of scholarship recently has come along, looking at that. You do mention in the book that the past scholarship has, one of the reasons that it's perhaps not focused so much on these missions is that academics associate the Christian missionaries is, as you said, just now with being chauvinistic, also bringing in imperialism and violence. And that was certainly part of the worldwide missionary experience. But these things are often nuanced. And you found in your studies that the Christian missionary experience in Burma was much broader than this. So what can you tell us? What can you start to unpack to tell our audience about some of the broad contours of what you found as he started to explore this more,
Alexandra Kaloyanides 12:11
it was nuanced. And, you know, I still want to be clear that it was also part of, you know, the history that of British colonialism that the missionary movement did sort of aid and abet, that you know that that's I do want to be sensitive to the real sort of violence of certain forms of colonialism and evangelical Christianity. And certainly this mission was a part of it, even the most sensitive missionary reports back to the States still, you know, that still present Buddhism as inferior to Christianity, even when they're celebrating Buddhism and saying how wonderful his teachings are, and its ethical practices and how similar it is to practicing Christianity. So there is that but, you know, I, first of all, I didn't even realize before I started this, that the Americans had arrived and set up this mission, even before colonial occupation of Myanmar. So they arrived 13th, right. So they're even their first their small operation, but they grow quickly. The first Anglo Burmese war isn't until 1824. You know, sometimes you think, oh, first comes, the colonists like the, you know, the merchants and the political people. And then the missionaries follow. But this was a different story. Also, the Baptist side of it, you know, they had they had left America's Congregationalists. So they themselves went through their own kind of religious conversion on the way they end up as Baptists, they end up in Yangon and Rangoon. And they are, you know, learning the languages, but they themselves are going through all these different kinds of changes. And it's 1813. I mean, it's not so long after the American Revolutionary period. So they themselves had, you know, family members who had fought against the British, so they were had themselves an uneasy relationship to the British that were coming in. And, and so, politically speaking, they were in a kind of odd place. Also, the way that Burmese culture and the Columbine dynasty and royal Buddhism and, you know, they totally failed to convert people from you know, the Bomar Buddhist communities, especially in the urban centers. And so they have this impact, this impact first with the Koran, and then other groups of people. But so they were always kind of on the fringes of society. And so they have this interesting relationship to, you know, Buddhism to power structures and eventually to the, to the colonial presence in the country. And, you know, Burma didn't become a full part of the British Raj until 1885 1886. So this was a long time of a lot of different changes in power dynamics. And these missionaries, again, you know, I think people who study missionaries and other places to find similar things, you know, are surprised to think about, you know, they're more open minded than maybe, you know, I was expecting going in, that they themselves are Working really hard. I mean, you spent a lot of time there, you've worked hard, the language is like the languages are hard. And these people work really hard to like learn the languages and met people and, you know, different kinds of translation works to rethink their own ways of presenting Christianity. And I really do think that the records that I looked through the evidence the sources show how Baptists Christianity itself changed, you know, was so it's not as if that the the only agents or the people with power were these Americans coming in, you know, and so, that just made me think differently about you know, the way religious imagination and practice work. And, and yeah, like you say, it's more nuanced, of course, there is the real effects of, of British colonialism, just like there are real effects of, you know, Burmese Buddhist empires, you know, and so, so, you're right, it's nuanced.
Host 15:54
Right, so in looking at what launched these American missionaries to go so early on, I mean, post Revolutionary War, pre British colonialism. One of the things that you point to is the imagined existence of this mythical book that is believed to be in India, that is this last Christian scripture, adding, as I understand it, adding details on to the life of Jesus and identifying the existence of certain last Christians that are perhaps in India and in the East. And this is what starts to inspire some of these early American missionaries in wanting to make that voyage over. Can you tell more about that story?
Alexandra Kaloyanides 16:35
Oh, I love this story. I was really interested, you know, I had sort of come to this by way of sort of Indology and studying Sanskrit and Pali. So I'm interested in this longer history of philology and Orientalism, and the mapping of indo European languages. So when I started reading these correspondences and diaries of these missionaries talking about what really sparked them wanting to go, you know, why do they want to leave their home country, I found reference to this one sermon by Claudius Buchanan, from 1809, this British guy, but he was talking about these theories that were being published by Orientalist scholars and, and European centers of learning. And they were fine. They were looking through poring over Sanskrit manuscripts that they had taken from India, whether they were given them or stolen them, or found them or whatever all of these manuscripts start circulating in these universities. And people start reading them and finding parallels, or they think actual stories of Christ in this vast corpus of Indian literature. And this missionary, you know, makes the claim that actually, the story of Christ is already known in this land, it's just been forgotten or distorted or confused, and so that, therefore, this place is so ripe for Christians to come and reintroduce the teachings of Christ. And so this idea that this there's this really rich history, this literature, this religious, complicated religious tradition, and that somewhere within it, there are these ideas of Christ really fascinated these young, these young people in the states who themselves are learning, you know, Latin and Greek. So they're kind of thinking, in some ways, like the philologists, and become fascinated with this idea. And so they themselves are like, let's go, let's go to India, I really want to go. And, you know, I myself was a kid who was like, I want to go to India, that seems so exciting, and so to read, and then the same kind of enthusiasm or somewhat of a familiar enthusiasm, but really inspired by the stories of the last, you know, Christian, Sanskrit manuscripts, you know, and, and so that's what they ended up doing. They tried to go to India, that was their plan. And when they arrived, the British didn't want them local communities didn't want them, they end up just kind of stranded in Madras and ended up by accident almost on this ship that takes them to Yangon. So they, they themselves are just trying to get to India, the sort of fascination, the romance a classic sort of romantic approach to India and the last history is that somehow entwined with with Western histories. So yeah, that's even how they got there. And I started to get really interested. And that's sort of where, where I started turning to book culture, because of course, there's the real books, they're the Bibles that they get, they bring, they're the missionary tracks, they introduced the printing press in 1860. And so, so books and book culture proved to be a sort of way into starting to understand the history of these these Kindred, like these exchanges and confusions and whatnot. And
Host 19:33
you reference how this, this interest in India was fitting into this wider Orientalism that painted that period, as well, as you know, probably some way informs the way that many in the West look at at parts of Asia today, and I wonder how this concept of Orientalism fits into that dynamic you're describing? Because often this term is used to describe the West exotic sizing Asian practices and Particularly the religious and spiritual practices. But in this case, you have these American missionaries that are being captivated by mysterious remnants of their own faith that are believed to be in the east. So they're, they're still they're not looking for another faith or practice. They're just kind of looking for an aspect of their own cultural religious faith that is lost in this faraway place. And so, would YOU in looking at this, would you apply an Orientalist lens to wanting to understand their drive to want to come to the east? Or how would you characterize it?
Alexandra Kaloyanides 20:32
Well, I think it does fit in some ways into the classic definition, you know, asides definition of Orientalism, as sort of imagining the east as this place that's exotic, you know, that doesn't, you know, even the theory that they they used to have Christianity, then they somehow lost it, you know, this idea that they're sort of right now cannot live up to the glory of their past, and therefore need outsiders to come in and introduce ideas or control things, you know, that kind of that binary. And, of course, people have been othering, in exotic sizing, different people all over, but because this is happening within the context of the asymmetrical power structures of British colonialism, you know, that's where Orientalism really has, its its problems, and you know, what side, you know, how to retaliate, who coined the term and 78, he was really talking about these other people, not just the people who were explicitly trying to take over other lands, but the artists and the missionaries who had the what they thought of as just genuine, enthusiastic, romantic ideas of other places. And so I think there's some ways that the early missionaries and their sense of this land of darkness, that they could bring light to this, you know, this other that was very different from their own, you know, did sort of support this larger, imaginary binary, that then ended up supporting colonialism. However, like you said, there was also Rome, almost a sort of a self romanticization, you know, thinking about ancient Christianity in these exotic ways and reimagining their own paths, and, and, and up, you know, futures where these things come to light. And so there was this way that, you know, Philology, we think now is this kind of stuffy practice of, you know, linguists stuck in their libraries. But this way that this was this fantastical elements of it. And even you know, when they came the way that they, the missionaries themselves were exotic size were imagined to be, you know, fulfilling prophecy, local prophecies and so on, and sort of how this different, you know, theories of the past and the future get projected onto the real people who are coming into these new spaces. Yeah,
Host 22:35
that's, that's very true. And let's get into what you inferred, right here in terms of this of, we're looking at so far in this conversation, we've been looking at the West, and particularly the missionaries, perception and understanding an exemplification of what they were finding in Burma. But on the other way around, there's this, many of these native cultures had this kind of mythology that they had lost something of their religion and somewhat some, some sacred religious book, and that someone would come to bring it to them. And so when the missionaries came, they actually fit within their own the mythology of some of these native peoples, so take it from there and tell us how this the historical work you did and trying to track what this theory was that some of these native populations were working with and where the source of them was. And then when the Americans came, how they respond to them based on this preconception.
Alexandra Kaloyanides 23:34
I first heard about this story when I was traveling in Myanmar in 2013. And this one, really wonderful ended, this member of a Korean community there, told me the story about how their community used to have a last book, that there was a time but well before the missionaries, even before the rise of, of sort of Burmese empires and the strength of a long, long time ago, when the Korean were illiterate people with a special book, and that this book, depending on the version, you hear ends up being lost sometimes it's, it's willfully neglected, you know, sometimes it's eaten by animals. But this one book that contained language and knowledge and access to sort of immaterial powers and and transcendent truths was lost. And it was this tragic story. But there was this prophecy that one day it would be returned to them. And when I was told the story in 2013, this was to explain to me why the Korean community was just so ready and willing to convert to Christianity, and why even their Christianity wasn't a foreign tradition, but rather a recovery of a lost faith of their own. So it wasn't as if they were converting to some kind of Western or white religion, but instead we're we're reconnecting with their lives. long lost history. And so I became really interested in this and wanting to track it as much as I could, I started just collecting going through the records trying to find evidence of this particular story of the last book, and where it might come from. And it's an oral tradition. So it could be very, very old. But what I became interested in is the way that the first recorded versions of it all happen after contact with the American missionaries. And the way the story itself transforms to have very particular details that the foreigner is, in fact, a white foreigner from over the water or from the West, who is going to come and bring the Bible back to them, and that this loss brother, and that they're the stories and even this idea of maybe being part of the lost tribes of Israel. And so it became this really interesting. You know, I can't speak to the previous oral history of this tradition. But from the evidence that does exist to the recordings of this tradition, you see this community telling the story with more details, and more information, and these really interesting ways that, that work to show show and legitimize a form of current Christianity to, you know, claim it sort of indigeneity in a way, you know, that was not really the term that they would use. But the idea that this was there as this was their book. And so the idea of a book itself being really important. And then, once they had started working with the missionaries, they devised scripts for current languages. And finally did once again have or for the first time, depending on who you talk to, you have a written language. And so much of this the stories about the last book were also told as a way to explain why they were seen as inferior by the Bomar people why the Burmese Buddhists had oppressed them had, you know, had made them work and, you know, the sort of live on the margins and work and lower level jobs and so on was part was to explain because they didn't have this book. And now they had the book again. And so that's I became interested in that story. And since that I've learned you know, there are others who told me for demaras scholar out of Japan, who's working on this as well and other scholars and other regions to looking at these last bookstores because it has echoes throughout Asia and perhaps beyond. But this very particular Korean legend, still is told today and so it made me think, again, about books, why books are so important at this sort of time and place. And
Host 27:30
it also makes me wonder in hearing that story, if obviously, they're at an oppressed minority population going back centuries from Bomar Buddhist empires, dictatorships, kingdoms, whatever the era is, and the existence of the theory of this last book is can almost function as a, an explanation, both of why they're in that prejudiced position, as well as what they need in order to find themselves or realize themselves. And so I wonder to what extent it might play into an identity of of looking looking at and trying to understand and explain why they are not the ones with the power. And then once this identification comes to them, one of the things you write about later in the book is that I don't remember the exact words you use, but it's something about how being a Christian is being a non Bomar for the most part because there's so few Bomar that are Christians and so this identity of of a Christian is something that can be held to as as almost a definition of not being a Bomar person, meaning that that one has a different identity and a powerful identity and identity that you're identifying with a powerful world religion that that much of the West, historically at least has, has followed. And so to what extent do you see this this question of identification, as well as the role that mythology is playing in looking at the power structures that existed over time of some of these ethnic minority communities? Yeah,
Alexandra Kaloyanides 29:06
I think you're right, it certainly has a lot to do with power structures, and in some ways was a very, you know, concerted way of asserting a particular identity that was strategic and felt true. It's also I, I would be wrong to also ignore the sort of, and I have this as, like, come across, I don't think at all in the book, but it's also often told, humorously, you know, this idea sometimes, the guy who loses the book, like falls asleep, or, you know, so sometimes it's also this kind of self deprecating, like, oh, we had all this great stuff, but then, you know, we were we fell asleep, or, you know, these kinds of different ways, you know, so, it's also kind of like a funny way, you know, of kind of talking about the human condition and all its foibles, and, you know, how people end up in different places for, you know, accidental or, you know, reasons to or mistakes that they've made, so, it's also, you know, part of a sort of funny narration of a history but also is is wrapped up in these very real political and economic and religious structures that have for a very long time and continue to put minority groups like the Koran and very difficult and oppressed positions.
Host 30:15
Right. Yeah. And now in looking at the contrast between some of these Christian communities and Burmese Buddhism, something you've alluded to already in this conversation, and something you write about in the book of some of the similarities. For example, you talked about previously how these the some, the Protestant Christianity, as it was developing in the West, started to see certain similarities with Burmese Buddhism. And maybe another example, which is the complete opposite end of the spectrum is supernaturalism. That, of course, supernaturalism, we know is so prevalent in Burmese Buddhism, with the gnats and the Divas and visible spirits and everything else. But you write about how, following the American Civil War, there was a prevailing belief among southern Christians about supernaturalism. And so can you talk about how some of where there might have been some common themes between these very different cultures and very different religions that were were unexpected, maybe anticipated at the time. And of course, this is a time, obviously, far before, you know, Wikipedia or internet research. But this is before any kind of authorities at all, you're sitting in a boat across the ocean, you have no idea what's going to await you and what the religion and culture you're landing is there's, you're, you're picking up clues and trying to work them out as you go along. And so as the these American Christian missionaries are coming with their culture and religious understanding themselves to this foreign land, and starting to just gather the pieces without any authority as to what this religion actually is, or what the practices are, and just trying to piece it together, as they're there, they start to make these perhaps, unpredictable connections. And so what what did you find in the connections of these faiths and practices as you looked more into it?
Alexandra Kaloyanides 32:03
Yeah, there's a lot there, you know, because there wasn't even I mean, I know, Johnson makes this, you know, first extended Burmese English dictionary, I mean, they were trying to can you imagine, like, trying to learn these languages without John locale, or I mean, without the resources, without YouTube or, you know, things like that, like, you know, so really, yeah, they were trying to work with, you know, local people trying to figure it out. So for sure, and they were coming. First, like you say, to a land that has this long and rich history of, you know, the landscape being alive, all of these invisible and visible beings, you know, all all around. And they themselves also came from a time where there were these kinds of supernatural powers. I mean, they were we do think about Puritans and a sort of kind of strict Protestant Ethic and so on. And they were Calvinists. They had that idea that, you know, the extension of idolatry, it wasn't just foreign people with manufactured objects that were offending God, but even Christians themselves, who had images of Jesus or the saints or any occupants of heaven, were committing idolatry. So they lived in a certain kind of Stark culture in the sense that they probably had never even seen a painting or an etching of Jesus ever in their lives before they left. So there were no visual depictions of Jesus or the saints or heaven, that they would have had experiences with. But in this period, you know, 19th century America following these wars, this idea of communicating with the dead, you know, this was the sort of, you know, people now talk about all these different death practices that people had the idea that you could have these connections between different kinds of worlds and with beings that were not visible, was, was very, I think, very real to them. And so I think there was one sense, you know, a lot of the writings, Emily Chubbuck Jetson, she's the third wife of this pioneering missionary at an Arab Judson. She writes, she gets when she finally arrives in the harbor of Rangoon, and she sees the landscape she sees Shwedagon, she sees all these pagodas and she's like, has like starts convulsing, she physically has this huge response to all of, you know, these golden buildings, you know, this idea that this place was somehow you know, alive. And so there was some kind of, you know, culture clashes, who say something new about this landscape, but again, they also weren't leaving a place of just, you know, empty churches and cold, you know, silent prayers, you know, there was also this sense that the world that they had left was also alive with different kinds of powers. And so it's interesting how they're different encounters with, you know, Tera Vaada doctrine, not worship, you know, all these different kinds of practices, surprise them in some ways, and then also had, I think, unexpected familiarities to them.
Host 34:52
Right, so let's just jump ahead and pick off what how you reference Jetsons the third wife of Judson either Her feelings upon seeing a pagoda she arrives because one of the chapters you have is on the pagoda structure and the the complicated feelings that the American missionaries have towards Buddhist pagodas and Buddhist Buddha images. You describe these, this mix of feelings they have towards them a fear and attraction. It's a physical and emotional response. Very intense. You described it just in relation to this one individual. Can you unpack and share a bit more about some of the what you what you gleaned and read from some of the other missionary writings is when they would come in contact with on pagoda grounds? Just how intense that experience was, and why it would be that intense for them? Yeah,
Alexandra Kaloyanides 35:41
I was surprised. I mean, even though, you know, I think still now people who travel and spend time, you know, we end up in a lot of pagodas, and we know how the sensorium of those spaces and the power of those spaces, but I was surprised how much the missionaries wrote explicitly about the power of those spaces, you know, sometimes they would censor their writings, especially if they were sending them back to the states and want to be more sort of proper Baptists and not talk about, you know, other powers so much, but there was so much writing about these spaces, and the way that they were both places that were good to go, because they could get an audience there, you know, they were these kinds of public sights of gathering, but also that they were the sounds would draw them in and the glistening sunsets on, you know, the top of golden tops of the pagodas would enchant them. And it was almost confusing. And also the Buddhist statues themselves, were for, especially for the first wave of missionaries, surprisingly, human, by which I mean that these missionaries, if they had seen any kind of imagery of Buddhists are, or sorry, Asian art really, before that, it was largely Hindu art that was coming through, you know, British sources. And so they had seen different kinds of Hindu and especially it being highlighted, as, you know, look at all these arms, look at all this, this different iconography, there's blood, there's, you know, weaponry, there's corpses, you know, all this. And then, when they get to Myanmar, they're seeing these, you know, Buddha's, often in the earth, touching posture, you know, sitting simply, you know, of course, they're adorned and whatnot, but they looked, in many ways, surprisingly human to the missionaries. And so I became interested in the pagodas as a place where we can really see the local Burmese material culture and the ritual practices and the communities acting on the missionaries impacting the kinds of ways they started to describe Burma and Burmese religions, back to the west. And in this period, even if you look at other descriptions of other Asian religions, Burma starts to figure as this place of a kind of more pure, quote, unquote, pure Buddhism, this idea that, you know, other forms of Buddhism had gotten corrupted or so on. But Burma is sort of celebrated as this place that has the more, you know, seemingly Protestant, really idea of, of Buddhism, and I think some of it is, is sort of the physical, the lived experiences that were happening, because so many of these other people who are making these lists of world religions back in these colonial centers had not spent time there, you know, but the missionaries who are spending time moving for the rest of their lives, and, you know, weekly on a weekly basis, going to these pagodas, I think we could see the pagoda space actually acting on them and the kind of impressions that then gets circulated in important ways throughout the world.
Host 38:31
Right, and you describe some of these missionaries and their different impressions and writings on it. There were certainly many that were dismissive and horrified and probably would like to see all the pagodas and Myanmar reduced to rubble and move on to a different religious and Christian message. But then you have one example of Reverend Ed Stevens, and he takes it very differently. He's not dismissive of the pagoda structure, he actually sees it as an important place that where he can better learn what the Buddhist faith is by seeing it and acted, perhaps to undermine it and perhaps to then bring in a Christian message but He's respectful in so far that he thinks this is something important to methodically and critically examined to better understand and better understand the faith and then and then to use that understanding for the purposes but it seems like he stands out from others that just come with this kind of sense of horror and dismissiveness and and looking at it in a more juvenile way. So what can you tell us about Ed Stevens?
Alexandra Kaloyanides 39:34
Yeah, Andrew Stevens is a good representative of a kind of more, sort of bookish, I would say, a bookish missionary and he was not, you know, singular in this in the States. So there was a lot of high level of education that went into it, but he was really serious about really wanting to study and understand Buddhist doctrine. And in a way, he was kind of like a proto anthropologist, you know, it's kind of a participant observation, but he's also Studying Pali texts, you know, he's learning Burmese, he's he's trying to really understand the philosophy behind things like gaining merit, reincarnation, trying to understand what it is about if the Buddha historical Buddha is gone, why do people find his power still present in these spaces? What do relics do? You know? So he's sort of looking at the pagoda. And he himself is trying to study it to understand better Buddhist doctrine. Yes, like you said, you know, especially what ends up being published, he wants to compare do a kind of comparative religions, so that, of course, Christianity comes out in favor, but I think, to to, to end there ignores the fact that he was also very serious and curious about investigating Buddhism and had, you know, a lot of knowledge and I think, respect for the tradition. And so try and the way that he used the pagoda, and sort of cited it as a sort of symbolic representation of these more abstract Buddhist ideas, is something that continues to happen in the way people study and talk about Buddhism. And he was doing that for his American audiences, in his own edification. But we had a lot of people who were really starting to learn really starting to study these complex ideas about how does marriage work, can you? Can you pass it on to someone else? Is it your own? How does reincarnation work and all of that, and so he was thinking, but then again, yes, we had some missionaries who are doing horrible things, and like you said, wishing they would be reduced to rubble. There's one guy who's putting his cane in the eye of a Buddha statue. I mean, people were doing also horrible things. But there were other people who were taking more time to really try and understand what was happening in these powerful places. And
Host 41:35
he in Stevens can perhaps be contrasted with another character that you describe Edwin Bullard, who has quite a unique and contentious relationship with Buddha images. So describe some of the stories that you tell as to how he comes to interact with these statues and how he tries to frame them to a Burmese Buddhist audience.
Alexandra Kaloyanides 41:53
Yeah, he was like the one of the worst. I mean, so some of these missionaries were really chauvinistic, and horrible, violent. I mean, he didn't hurt people, but it statues. So there were some missionaries, who were really thought this or thought played well, and the letters they sent to be published and missionary publications or whatnot. Were really aggressive towards Burmese Buddhist imagery and image practices. You know, they said, This is horrible idolatry. And they use the tropes of the ignorant, you know, heathens who think there's a Buddha really in there, they're, say, giving prayers to this long dead Indian man, why are they doing that? You know, that was the kind of the trope of it. And so he was gonna do this dramatic display of standing and starting to literally attack a Buddha statue to show and the idea, I guess, in his mind was that he was going to somehow attack the Buddha statue. And when the Buddha statue couldn't fight back, all the people would somehow be like, Oh, I thought he was in there the whole time, which, of course, that is our they thought, because they were very clear that they didn't think there was actually, you know, Siddhartha godson was sitting inside that statue. But there was a, you know, a strain of the evangelical press, especially, that seem to enjoy these kinds of stories. And so we do have evidence of people, you know, literally attacking, attacking Buddha statues, which is really, you know, shows the sort of visceral nature of what it would be like to be in Myanmar at the time and have someone show up and start doing that, and how awful that must have been.
Host 43:17
So we move forward in your book, at least in looking at your chapter on pagodas. But I think this is a good segue to move back, at least in how your chapter arrangements are in the book. And you have another chapter on schools. This is a very important part of Burmese society, the time especially as colonialism comes because of course, you have the monastic, the Burmese Buddhist monastic schools that have been there for time immemorial, you have the American missionaries that are starting to have this growing interest in seeing what missionary schools can provide and the conversion efforts. And then you also have the British colonialism and need for more secular education that can serve that can be that can make cogs in the whole modern machine that the British are trying to build. So what was your first your overall perspective on what was happening with education at this time, and then we'll get a bit more granular in terms of the characters and activities you've described?
Alexandra Kaloyanides 44:11
You've really done your homework, Joe, I Yes, I have a chapter on schools. And even though I guess it's like the second chapter, it was the last chapter I wrote, okay, because in some ways I was looking at so each chapter was around an object. So the first one we talked about was books, I guess it's the third one. Now I'm trying to remember the third one is on the pagodas. And then I look at at portraits and paintings and the last chapter, so the school kind of fits a little less easily into that framework in that it's not a single object, but I wanted to look at the school as a school house with teaching aides like globes and telescopes, many of which were first brought. The first ones came from these missionaries, so that ended up being sort of I fit it in that way, but it was the last one I wrote because I hadn't been I've been collecting information about the schools. But I hadn't sort of sat down to really think about it. But when I was working on the manuscript, I realized that that was a huge part of the story. I mean, if anyone knows anything this you probably knew about this before. If you think of the legacy of the American Baptist mission, you think about the schools, the schools remained poor, and through the colonial period, and still, you know, into the 20th and 21st century, so people often when they rarely thought about American missionaries, that what they thought about what school so I realized I had to think about that. So to go back through that I had been interested in globes and telescopes and different ways of imagining different worlds, you know, how was the world map? Was it flat? Was it round these kinds of ways that because we had people going to missionary schools that were not Christian, and never were going to become Christian. And so I was trying to think about, like, what they were doing there. And a lot of the descriptions of what was happening in these places, was we came to see the glow, we came to see the map, you know, this kind of Expo, we wanted to look through the telescope, we wanted to explore other worlds not because we're going to change our particular commitment, there was an idea that, you know, karma was karma, you know, reincarnation was reincarnation, like, there's no way to, to get rid of all that and change and salvation was this other way. But I want to see through your telescope that looks fascinating, you know, so I started to think about schools not just as a single kind of tool of evangelism or colonialism, but also as a way as a place for people to explore other religious worlds. I also was very interested in schools because this was a domain in which women had a lot of power both in the missionary schools, but also increasingly in other ways of thinking about education in Myanmar, so I talked about this one text assassin of Ahimsa, and how that sort of sort of holds up these these young women and girls and and mothers and suffer expert, Polly, expert, Polly masters grammar, and so on. And so this idea of the educated woman, and the reality of writers, and chorus, and teachers, and these, these some of these single women and married women who are from the states who are working in the school system, I was able to look through a lot of their correspondences with each other, and sort of enter into into a world where it wasn't just women writing for men or men writing about women, but sort of women writing to each other. And so I thought, because so much of the history that we have access to or has been told of this period is mostly through men and elite men, the school chapter was also an opportunity to spend some time with these women figures who are interesting and complicated in their own ways.
Host 47:32
And it's also interesting transitioning in our story here, because we're going from this first contact of this kind of Orientalist lens of this excitement of finding in this foreign land, finding these last mysterious remnants of your own faith and then bringing, as you say, bringing what you believe is this light to this dark place, and then, but by this time, we're transitioning to these communities have been there for some time that have members of the American missionary community that are now becoming fluent in Burmese are making Burmese dictionaries are, are having audiences with the king are having different conversion attempts underway understanding Buddhism to a greater degree, etc. And so it's transitioning into what's working and what's not one of the things you described is that they're starting to realize, I think it was Judson who said that you can't just go out and preach and expect to have conversion, you need to start at a lower level of education, you just start with the children. And this is something that one of the women that you described, the first one Lydia Lily bridge takes on in arguing to her community that to change the faith of a people, you need to start at a young age. And so there are certain ways they can bring the faith into youth that are much harder when you're just putting up a soapbox and starting to preach to an assembled community. And so what was the thinking that went on with people like Jetson and Lydia Lillibridge, that are thinking to want to bring education and and perhaps there's some secular education, there's this technology with the globes and the telescopes, you mentioned that are these objects of fascination, but somewhere in there, there needs to be a hook of where the Christian conversion comes. And so how are they thinking about these educational missions and schools they want to set up and the and the point that it's serving in their overall conversion mission and why they're in the country in the first place?
Alexandra Kaloyanides 49:31
Yeah, there's women like Lydia Lillibridge, even Ellen Mason, you know, different people that I write about Emily tbic Judson, people who are there and working in the schools are starting to really make this case that it's not conversion doesn't happen just by some guy preaching to a captive audience in the local language. That was the ideal right just to go and preach with the fewest amount of things necessary. The simplest way you're just going to go on these itinerant tours of remote locations preach the gospel, then everyone will convert. And they were like, first of all, that's not happening. Second of all, you know, when we do see this happen, it happens through a, you know, through different media are helpful. books themselves are a form of media, you know, there are other things that people are using telescopes and gloves. Those things are happening. And it has to happen and through younger people and through repetition, and it's not just the first time you hear this, that people are coming around. And these these women, these female missionaries from the States, are learning this through their interactions with local Burmese families and the way they see Burmese Buddhist ideas and practices being learned and passed on through, you know, taking families to pagodas, you know, teaching, you know, learning about, you know, doing practices to earn merit, to practice the precepts, ethical practices, practices of generosity, giving something to monks that this was happening daily, that these were things that were happening. And it seems obvious, of course, but for these mission missionary women who had limited power, except for what they were doing in classrooms, they were making a case that they needed more resources, because there was a lot of money being spent to sending guys out into the jungle alone to preach. And they needed more money for their schools. And so they were the ones who are saying, Come on, please. Think about this differently. Also, as the British colonial apparatus got powerful, and more and more parts of Burma were annexed by the British. There was this concern that all we're doing is trying to teach, I think it's literally British who says, they're just learning how to eat sleep and drink in English, like this isn't just like English people. Like it's not just about languages, it's not just learning about British society. That's not what we're here for, and that we really if we want to, and for these people, you know, one real concern was this idea of karma. Being that you know, you did your wholesome acts and your unwholesome acts, you know, the Buddhist idea that you had your wholesome and unwholesome acts, and that you had to sort of live out the consequences of that. And that eventually, you do more and more wholesome acts, and over many lifetimes, that you can then achieve nirvana, this was awful to these missionaries who really were like, No, there's a way to be saved from your sins, you know, that you that you can have, you can you can have, there's a grace, there's salvation. And so for them to really try and impart this message, they needed to think about how the other messages of, you know, karma and Mara, and, you know, liberation were being formed. And so they had their own sort of educational theories, that they were sometimes successful and sometimes less successful, of promoting in terms of how do we really introduce Christianity in a way that will become soon to become embodied, to be learned to be habituated to be believed?
Host 52:41
What strikes me as you're saying this, that's really interesting that that's an example that comes out both in terms of the schools and the pagodas is it seems like there was these contrasting missionary thoughts of some that came in with just this horror and ridicule and perversion of Buddhism is just something to not even take seriously something that was dark and and in juvenile and it should be obvious for all to see. And then there was another wave that seems like you're describing that, both in terms of the schools and people like Ed Stevens with the pagoda, that are saying, like, No, we need to take this as seriously as we take Christianity, we need to understand it on its own terms, we need to look at it in a mature, even, perhaps even academic way, understand in its within its own community, what it's trying to say and where those beliefs come from. And of course, the goal of that the end goal of that, even as you're saying respectful and nice things about the religion might be undermining or might mean to show that it's really Christianity is, is, is bringing tools and ways of life that Buddhism can't, that might be the end goal. But it's been accomplished by another wave of these missionaries trying to take it seriously on its own merits, rather than just kind of write really nasty things about it.
Alexandra Kaloyanides 53:56
Right. And of course, it's the people in Burma, the people they met who, you know, who get them there who, you know, when they start trying to debate and tell them, Okay, this is Christianity, this is like, I think you need to understand something about karma whether or not you believe in, you know, the Buddha's enlightenment or not, doesn't matter, you're, you're piling up karma, you know, you're piling up. And so a lot of people, you know, were patient and took time, or were defensive, and, or whatever, you know, this whole complicated way that humans interact with each other, of course, but really, we're, we're trying to help these people also understand, in a complicated and sophisticated way, both intellectually for the purposes of debate, but also trying to help them to be like, Yeah, I hear what you're saying about this great God of yours. We've got a lot of gods and spirits too, but none of them are actually going to get us all the way and so we want to tell you about, you know, about right action and write thought and, you know, and wisdom and all of that too. And so, you're these people are living there for decades, and they're around this and they're learning these things, and they're gaining that kind of knowledge and a respect and they're forced to really specify for themselves and for their communities. What is distinct about Christianity? You know, and it really does come down to this question of salvation and faith in God and grace and, you know, and joining into the church. And so, you know, yeah, so you're right. Yeah. And of course, like you say, like we keep saying, because I think it's fair to say there were people that were were less empathetic and less patient and didn't learn, didn't do, you know, pay attention to learn, and so and so on.
Host 55:28
Right, that's really interesting. Another of the women that you chronicle in here, who just has some unbelievable stories, that would be great if you can share as Maria Baker in goals, in don't say, and the stories that you tell of the tree of the dog of the relationship with the mug, these are just incredible if you can share some of these anecdotes with our audience.
Alexandra Kaloyanides 55:52
Oh, yeah. Marilla Baker angles is fascinating if anyone wants to. I also wrote it, there's an article of mine somewhere floating around the internet. So you don't even have to buy the book. You could find an article that I wrote about her a while ago, because she is really, really interesting. And she is not easily slotted into some of these kinds of types of missionary. So she was considered the most successful missionary among Burmese Buddhist. So murli mega Engels, she ends up being considered the most popular popular converter of Burmese Buddhists. So people at this time when she was there, in the mid 19th century, most resources, the mission has started going instead to minority communities and not to the mainstream communities. But for this woman, she really wanted to be in a Bomar community and wanted to convert people from from Buddhism, and her husband ends up dying. And so she stays in the country as a solitary missionary, which was relatively rare. And she ends up doing these extraordinary things. She's also a prolific writer. So we have a lot of her published essays available to look back at. And some of her more interesting stories revolve around this shrine tree, there was a NAT tree on a property nearby where she was setting up her miss her mission until Wednesday, and she befriended the monk who was the head, the head Abbot of this monastery where there was this, this tree, you know, as I'm sure many of your listeners will know, nats often take residence in trees. So there's some trees where people will go to present offerings to, to the spirits known as Max. And so there's one of these trees and Marilla ended up befriending this monk. He was old and blind, and he never converted to Christianity. But he loved the story, she would tell her she was a great storyteller and to tell him all these stories, and finally, he ended up giving her a piece of the property. And she ends up inheriting this naturally, which she then transforms into a kind of Christian shrine, with biblical verses, there's a picture of Queen Victoria on it. There's advertisements for different kinds of medicines, including one that had some kind of opiate in it that was popular at the time in the states and missionary travels, I think. And so she has this, this tree, and she writes about it. And she writes about people coming there and how they make offerings and how she uses it to introduce them to Christianity. And of course, this speaks to the power of objects and so on. But her stories are so detailed, and there's so many of them that even reading a little bit between the lines, you could see how this tree may be a place where Jesus joins, you know, other gnats and becomes a kind of head NAT figure and people end up becoming interested in him for that kind of reason. And how she kind of uses these materials of local culture, but also local culture kind of turns her Baptist Christianity into a Southeast Asian religion. She also has this dog statue that she uses and she kind of uses the same tropes as like I bollard where she says, Oh, you know, I tried to tell them look, are you afraid of my dog? And they're like, no, he's a statue is a cast iron dog, lifesize cast iron dog. She has a friend, some friends in New York, which was somewhat expensive to ship over anyway, I couldn't find out that much about it. But the she has this dog statue, and people are making offerings and engaging in a certain way. And so I think she was, you know, very familiar. She was apparently very good at local languages. And she was very good at understanding the culture. And so I think her story and her mission, even though she was careful to say, I'm just doing all this and this is all just sort of, you know, skillful means you would have said that, but just I'm just using the local, you know, culture to teach them about Christianity. I think her mission really shows how much Southeast Asian Buddha's a Southeast Asian culture really kind of localized Baptists Christianity really Baptist Christianity transforms from being this foreign religion to being really a you know, another Burmese religion. through people like the people that were visiting her mission.
Host 1:00:06
That's quite interesting. And going back to these telescopes and globes that were being brought in these were scientific objects, you can say that showed a different understanding of the world and a different way to, to do understand cosmology and and where science was coming in. And in many cases, you describe the people, including the royal court, we're fascinated by these objects. And then we try to use these to encourage interest in their schools or their mission to varying degrees of success. But I'm just curious and looking at the integration of these new modern objects into Burmese society at the time, and globes and telescopes that neither of these had ever been seen before. How did they fit into or challenge a 19th century Burmese Buddhist understanding of cosmology on their own terms?
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:01:00
This is hard, because you have to be a little bit more I end up being a little more speculative here, because there's not a lot of like clear causal evidence, you know, what's changing what, and this is a larger phenomenon. I mean, this scholar Don Lopez talks a lot about this kind of way of modernizing Buddhism. And, you know, the Abhidharma. And its ideas of cosmology are often the first places where people are willing to change things up. I mean, even the more contemporary example of the Dalai Lama saying if it's if science, modern science disproves it, we're fine to get rid of it. But in Burma, the Abhidharma has been really something that's been really important. And people have been less reluctant to challenge the Abhidharma. And, you know, that basket of the Tipitaka of the Pali canon. And so, you know, I think it's interesting to think about how ideas, for example, that the earth is flat, with a central, you know, Mount Meru, and the continents and those kinds of things that when people are starting to look at these globes and telescopes, and there's something I learned about, if any of your listeners could tell me more, there's something called a crane or trope that they're talking about these different models, you know, solar models of how the, you know, the, the earth and the solar system works. And people are really having to rethink, you know, what, what they've learned and figure out, okay, was the Buddha wrong about this, or the text wrong? And, and, you know, of course, I wanted to find some, you know, you know, some Burmese letter where they say, Oh, I met this missionary, and I really thought, you know, and I, but I didn't find any of that really direct thing. But we know that at this time, Burmese, Buddhism and education and things were changing. And so this idea of, of rethinking things like geography, cosmology, and figuring out what are the Buddhist teachings that are most important? And what are the things that are, you know, that aren't as important to pay attention to, and that's all happening. And the Christian missionaries were there, they're the ones, you know, walking around with all these telescopes early on. And, and so I think there's something there, but in terms of actually finding some causal thing. I mean, if there were other influences, you know, you had people in the, you know, the Royal Court, traveling to European places to Sri Lanka, getting information. So just the changing nature of, you know, worldviews and technology was happening in a lot of different places. But I do think the missionaries must have played some kind of role there.
Host 1:03:15
Yeah, well, it's also interesting to look at just these perhaps unintended consequences that that that happen as they start to go and set up roots and have communities. I'm just just one anecdote that just comes to me right now and thinking is that you look at Sayagyi u BA, Khin, he's the teacher of Sn Glencoe started his own passion and mission, mindfulness around the world in terms of his passionate meditation courses, and see as you begin, he was a very promising and intelligent young man who came from a very poor background, and one of the Burmese industrialist saw his promise and basically funded his entire education in missionary schools. And it was in these missionary schools that he learned English and that he, and that he had an understanding of technical skills, he was later able to be accountant, General and Minister and when he was government, and of course, it was his understanding of science and the world and his connections with foreigners and his ability to speak English. All of these then went into serving perhaps the opposite of the Christian missionary movement in terms of the passion of mindfulness movement, and then went around the world and was made possible this way. And when I was first starting to learn about this is just one example. And it begins case. But as I was starting to learn more both about historical figures as well as friends of mine, or the older generation of friends that I had in Burma, and I would just hear story after story of someone whether it was someone known or someone famous as a new begins case, going to a missionary school and when I first heard that I didn't know much about this topic, my immediate question would be like, Oh, well did they did, did they try to convert him because If you had an E or was he did he learn Christian things or, you know, kind of come in with this angle? And I'd often get a response of like, oh, no, this was just the education that was provided. And so I learn or in some cases, it would be like, oh, yeah, we so my friends, I'm thinking of particularly it say, oh, yeah, we learned about the saints or, you know, learned about these Christian theories, but in many cases that didn't really move the bar in any negligible way of actual conversion. Instead, for many people, the schools became set something else in motion, just the education, the internationalism, the modernity, the language, whatever else it was giving them set something entirely different in motion. Inuvik kins case, that's one example. There's many other examples. And so it's just interesting to see where seeds from one movement, then transition to something else, and then have these unintended consequences. I don't know what that says about cause and effect. But it's pretty interesting to look through that lens as well.
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:05:51
That's a great story, isn't it u BA. Khin who ended up coming up with the 10 day retreat format. And he was wondering, yeah, so yeah, you think about it, there are a lot of people like you say, who ended up being, you know, going through these schools. And, you know, in some ways, the schools had different rules about how much they could try and convert. There were rules about not being explicitly Evangelical, but like you said, of course, they're in that context, they're learning about Christianity. And as I write about in the book, if anything, I think what happened is that Burmese Buddhism became even more strong and asserted that, you know, the kinds of ways of refuting Christian arguments and kind of saying, No, we hear you. Well, I'm sure that guy Jesus was really nice. But you know, this is where we're standing. And this is why we hold these beliefs. So dear, and this is why they're so powerful. And if anything, I think that Burmese Buddhism changed, even became stronger and more pronounced. In the face of you know, it was obviously there's a lot more Burmese Buddhists, I mean, the Christian movement was, especially the American missions where you know, was was relatively small, but still right there. They're coming in contact with these increasingly powerful ideas and systems of thought and, and education, and learning really all different ways. And Alicia Turner writes wonderfully about this, but a ways of, what do you take with that? And how do you how do you really respond? How do you protect Buddhism? How do you change the country? How do you promote, you know, more local ways of understanding and living? You know, in the face of all of this?
Host 1:07:14
Yeah, exactly. And just as some of these different waves of Christian missionaries are trying to understand Buddhism on its own terms, respectfully, in order to have mature and rational arguments that they're able to undermine, you also see Burmese Buddhists like Lady Seda, for example of not breaking from how other monks or ministers at the time, were acting of being fearful of the English language, fearful of science and technology, fearful of Christianity, ladies actually curious about it. And actually, later in his writings, he starts to compare he's, he has an interest in the latest scientific developments. He's not afraid of it, he's actually integrating that into his Buddhist understanding. And as he's describing, as he's trying to promote Buddhism to a world religion that should have the same kind of respect and stature of Christianity is trying to understand Christian thought in its own terms, and then perhaps undermine, perhaps be able to show the greater validity of what Buddhism is, but But yeah, then as as this, the modernity itself, as well as Western influence and Christian ideals come in, you do have people that start to study it on its own terms as a way to strengthen and understand both Burmese Buddhism as well as the institutions in their own country.
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:08:29
Yeah, that's really well said. And it does have this interesting mirror effect to sort of what was happening on the other side with the Christian with the Christian missionaries. Yeah, you're totally right, I think.
Host 1:08:38
And just staying on lady Seta for a minute because we, to segue further, you mentioned him a couple times in in your writing one of them. And this, this is interesting to explore, because this is going in the different directions. So much of this conversation has been looking at the American missionaries and Westerners and what they're bringing to Burma and of course, things are going back another way. And you also describe examples of that in your book. One of the examples you give is kombucha, which you describe as possibly the first Buddhist book to ever reach the West and which you also reference lady say it has relationship with it. But can you describe what come of Asha is and the importance of it as well as how Westerners are understanding that because that's another key part of it is not just what Kombucha is in the Burmese Buddhist context, but how Westerners start to relate and perhaps distort what they're seeing it and then we come back to this Orientalist view again with that,
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:09:35
yeah, the kabocha is this ritual manual. It's also called the Kamala sometimes when you're in Burma, and it's a ritual manual, it's in Pali language, and it has the most important Buddhist rituals, especially monastic rituals, so rituals for ordination, for example, or for putting a boundary around a monastery. So really important, you know, some of the oldest rituals we have in the oldest one language we have, however, in Myanmar and Burma, these manuscripts are the most adorned mass produced manuscripts. They're not just simple palm leaf manuscripts with, you know, bamboo pegs. But instead, they are often gilded, they're lacquered. They are done in a special kind of script. They are, they have paintings on the, in the margins and on the cover boards. And so I'm sure many of your listeners will be familiar with these manuscripts. And I became really interested first because of the history, I mean, seems like they're really early circulated to the States. I found early in my studies, I found them in different archives in the United States. They are in different places in the UK. And of course, they're all over Myanmar. And I became really interested in this particular manuscript because in some ways, it preserves the teachings of the Buddha and ensures that the rituals are in line with what I've been practicing, you know, over centuries. But I started to notice different changes in these manuscripts, specifically the emergence of these sword bearing figures, maybe not some kind of Deva, some kind of figure holding, these are weapons that seems to happen. So the earliest manuscripts I could find some of them were made of Perl, some done in copper, I've read a variety of motifs, but by the kinds of time that kingman's on men sends up Mandalay, so at 57, even 59 In that period, again, a lot of these manuscripts are not we don't know when they're from they're not dated, there's not often call the phones. But when when we do have that information, it seems that over the course of the century, they became more standardized. And they often had these kinds of sword bearing spirits. So I was interested not in this way that they preserved an ancient tradition, but what they might tell us about the time and the place in which they were circulating in 19th century Burma. And I was thinking about them not as sort of symbolizing, or directing people to abstract teachings. But if they themselves being active in participating in the changing culture and political dynamics, and sort of theorizing that the royal sponsors and local sponsors and people who started asking for these, you know, weaponized spirits on them, we're seeing these participating in it was just not in royal centers throughout the country, people would use this kind of manuscript, you know, you go to Amman, any you know, any different locations, they would have these manuscripts. So the idea of unifying a kingdom with ethnic divisions, but also as kingdom that's at war with the British, and the role that spirits and powerful objects could play. And there's a quote that I found through Eric bronze work on lady Sayadaw, where lady Saito says that you should use one of these powerful adorned manuscripts, you know, that this, these are the powerful ones, and that they could bring, you know, to sort of bring the spirits to bear and sort of act in the world. And so, that's what I wanted to really think about these objects and sort of how the they themselves and the history of them and writings about them are, were having me think they weren't just symbols of abstract doctrines and theologies, but were actual things with powers that were acting in the world. They're both connecting to worldly powers and other worldly powers. And yeah, so you had, you know, different people who are really calling for, you know, these kinds of objects, these manuscripts, these spirits to get involved, like get in the fight, they were conscripting them, I think, in a way.
Host 1:13:18
But what's so interesting about this is that they're playing this really important role in Burmese Buddhist society where even the revered lady say it as is. It's a big part of his life and practice, which really seems I remember when I first read that I read or before Braun published his book, I'd read his thesis. And he had described that in the thesis many years ago, and I remember it just I hadn't read much at the time. And it just blew my mind because it seemed to really kind of contrast directly with my understanding of what the modern passionate movement was supposed to be. This seemed to be the antithesis of it. And then of course, in later years, as I would dig deeper, both in experience and conversations and books find that that was a result of the framing that was a result of the messaging of of what this movement was that was prioritizing certain aspects and diminishing or reinterpreting or even hiding other aspects of it. I mean, Brian also points out in his thesis, this is not in the book. I think he wanted to be a bit more polite and diplomatic, but he points out how the Glencoe organization went so far as to actually Photoshop beads out of meditation beads out of lady's hands on book covers, because it doesn't fit into their kind of modern, scientific rational presentation of the practice, but getting to your work. It's really interesting because this is an important part of Burmese Buddhist society. And you describe it as possibly being one of the first Buddhist books that gets to the west. But going back to this Orientalist mindset, there's a rejection in the west of Buddhist rituals that is seen this as less valuable or less pure or not the real teachings, not the real ins All right. And so how are early Westerners as they start to see these come of Russia? How are they relating to them?
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:15:08
I think at first, it was really just trying to, you know, read and parse the teachings and the doctrine, I think it was really trying to understand Buddhist philosophy and practice, just on sort of just to get the sort of one on one aspects. And so when they got this, they were really interested in the textbook to say, okay, you know, when you even see this, some of the earliest published excerpts of the Kamala Wacha texts, you'll have them sort of explain stuff like, oh, by the way, monks are beggars who can't handle money, or you see how early this is in the sort of global understanding of Buddhism. So they're using this text, and they're giving, so Oh, and they also, you know, they shave their heads, and, you know, so really trying to understand this, Buddhism 101 stuff, and, you know, and then there has the longer history of Buddhist studies where there was a real interest in in teachings and, and practices like meditation, but not in the material stuff that was seen as a real cultural baggage lesser, or hindrance, and so on. And I think that still is somewhat at play. But I think, you know, for the last couple of decades, you know, people like me writing about material cultures, because other people were interested in material culture and ritual and embodied practice, and living Buddhism. So I think more people are paying more and more attention to that. But still, yeah, there are still these, sometimes you're like, you find yourself being surprised by some of the materiality, both the Buddhists and you know, for these, for these Baptists, and why am I surprised? You know, is it because of the reality of their, you know, mediated lives? Or is it because of my own preconceived notions of what their religions are like.
Host 1:16:41
And so these, the Western interest in Burmese Buddhism, and I was pausing, as I was saying that because I was realizing that there's this western interest is coming from different directions, there's Christians that actually want to learn about Burmese Buddhism to undermine it, there's, there's people involved in trade and government that wants to learn about it to better control their populations and make a profit. And then there are those people that actually want to learn the, the esoteric, and, and in their mind at that point, probably mystical practices, because they themselves want to, they're interested in perhaps becoming Buddhists or learning these, this philosophy and this practice for its own merits. And so people, the Westerners are coming in with different perspectives and different incentives and motivations and, and biases of how they're related to this information. But it seems that across the board, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that even with coming in with these different perspectives, there is this kind of consistent rejection of wanting to look at the ritual practices. So what how do you understand that bias taking place in terms of how they were relating and trying to understand, in its own form, what was happening with Burmese Buddhism and in within the populations and the practice and the country?
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:18:01
Yeah, I mean, I think there is a for on the Baptist side, you know, there is a Protestant sort of anti Catholic just sort of aversion to spending too much time thinking it's thinking about rituals, or, you know, be with with rituals, I really wanted to understand doctrine as being as far more important and beliefs, especially individual beliefs. But I think you also have different forms of reformation movements happening within Burmese Buddhist traditions, and concerns where they themselves are also questioning, you know, ritual trying to think about what is most important, what are you know, what is selling in? So, you also, I think, have people you know, they're talking to you saying, like, Yeah, you see all these people, they're doing their, their rituals, they're coming to the pagoda, they're, you know, and that's one thing, but that's not what's most important either. And I think so there's also these internal and debates that long precede the arrival of the missionaries, these reformation movements and questions about what are the rituals we should be doing? What are the practices that are the most correct and all that and those are no longer debates that are happening in the country?
Host 1:19:01
Yeah, and one of the most fascinating groups that you describe in, in in diverting from the mainstream Burmese Buddhist practice is the paramount, so tell who they are and what their belief structure is, and why the Christian missionaries became so intrigued and interested in what they represented.
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:19:22
Oh, yeah. So sorry about the parents, because I'm hoping maybe some of your listeners will know more about them. They're this, this mysterious movement, like I need more sources, because I wasn't able to find many. But I did find, especially in the American archives, a kind of obsession with them. There are this 19th century sectarian movement, they were getting prosecuted, they were they themselves were trying to sort of promote their ideas and trying to have some independence for their own counter. religious ideas. You know, they themselves identified as Buddhists, but they saw mainstream Burmese Buddhism as having gone in the wrong directions of becoming corrupted. A big You obsessed with the same things that the missionaries or the Baptist missionaries were concerned with to concern with statues, and making offerings to monasteries and monks like the materiality, they want it to think about ultimate truth like Parramatta like that the ultimate what is ultimate truth, even the sort of figure of the Buddha, they thought was less important than, again, I'm putting piecing this together from very limited sources. But it seems that this was a sectarian movement that was challenging mainstream Buddhism, and had some interesting ideas about what the real Buddhist path should be, and had been. And the, you know, there have been all these reform movements and the kings get all involved. And so there's concerns about different kinds of, of developments. And so we have, you know, one evidence of a crucifixion this, there is a story of a crucifixion that happened and people didn't know why, why was this guy being crucified, was the Christian was he so on, and then it turns out, he was a Parma. And so these missionaries start learning about this persecuted group. And as they start talking to power about leaders and learning about their different ideas about you know, about, you know, not focusing too much on things and intermediaries, it sounds really Protestant to them. And so they, the missionaries themselves, sort of get this sort of okay to spend a lot of time with these Paramount's because they think they're a sign that the country is eventually coming to the teachings of Christ to eventually come into a form of Protestant Christianity. But when I was going through the materials, you know, I could not find that justified you see more of that being a kind of, of a missionary, a Western fantasy, but also you do find some interesting debates there. And I was interested in the way that for both of these minority religious groups, the Baptist Christians and the Parramatta that objects were key that that was where they were focusing a lot of attention on Buddha statues, pagodas objects, resources. And so this idea that religious change was happening around conversations of immaterial, and material powers became really interesting to me. But yeah, there's not a lot known about them, I found a few earlier works of scholarship where people had some different theories about it. So if anyone out there knows anything, especially of you know, a Burmese or poly or any kind of like local sources, I, I would love to read some more about this group, they seem really interesting and seem to have gotten into some a fair bit of trouble for their for their ideas.
Host 1:22:25
And yeah, certainly you can definitely get into trouble in Myanmar now. And in the past for having theoretical ideas about meditation and practice and such. But you You also referenced an incident of Anoosh Weibo, who discusses is on the record of discussing meditation with a foreigner, this is long before ladies at this time, he's talking about meditating on the 32 parts of the body. This is kind of pre staging the lay meditation movement that would develop in Burma really a reference many years before of lay people actually talking about Buddhist meditation, which would have been very unusual mid 19th century. Yeah,
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:23:02
these were a little bit later, this was more like 1880, some of that kind of stuff. But yeah, still, but still unusual. And still early. And, and like you, I, you know, before all this been really interested in the passion, and also in meditation, and so on. So when I started looking his records, I was very aware of that and trying to find references to meditation, and it was just absent, you know, the Insight Meditation movement was was later and so people weren't talking about meditation or learning meditation, it wasn't part of the conversation until I found this Paramount movement, and this and then, and talking about 32, body parts contemplation, and I was like, this was exciting to me, because I had been looking, you know, I've been looking in a lot of places. And so for me, I was like, wow, and this idea that, you know, the sort of debate about whether Nirvana was still something that people could could, you know, could you get enlightened now, in this lifetime, you know, those kinds of debates that people who have worked on, you know, Lady Sayadaw, and later, have thought about, I found it first in these Paramount Records. So it became really interesting to me for that reason to,
Host 1:24:03
in looking at the American mission to Burma, so much of the conversation so far, has really looked at their point of view in terms of who they were, what they were trying to do. In your book, you really go at lengths to want to not take away the agency of the of the indigenous people and the way that they saw it and not see them as objects that were just come in and their agency removed. And they were just converted by the force of this imperialistic group that sort of they're well on them. But in looking at, how did they see the arrival and the relationship with the missionaries, how did they view the possibilities that the religion and the faith offered them?
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:24:42
I think there there are multiple things but I think the story of a all powerful God that could forgive sins was something that was both really attractive to some to some listeners, this idea that there was a God you know, the idea that There could be some other being who could forgive them of the sins and that there could be salvation that way, was sort of the central piece. And then I think it was identifying with it was was joining a Christian community that transcended local environment, national environments that was this global, you know, not just because oh, I want to be part, you know, on the team of the winning colonialists, you know, but really, that this was this, you know, this global another universal religion, you know, Buddhism, you know, as, as a universal religion, but Christianity is also a universal religion, and the idea that there was this heaven, and this was also when I was in Myanmar, in 2013, this heaven was this place where these different people are still there, and that you can go and be with these people. And they're from all over the world that this is not an American religion, or a you know, Greek, Greco Roman or Middle Eastern or so, but of this global religion in this inter, cultural multi, you know, lingual, you know, really universal tradition, and that it has this kind of power, and then, you know, the practices themselves the idea, you know, the signal practice of baptism, you know, the real, the idea of, of really becoming new in one lifetime, not waiting another lifetime to, to have a kind of a new shot at life, but to really be able to baptize to, to be born again, in this lifetime, into a community that could that had this loving and all powerful God, you know, really, like it does all over different types of places that message has, has really, you know, resonated with different different communities.
Host 1:26:35
Yeah, certainly. And you start off the book by saying, quote, The Story of the American Baptist mission to Burma, then is a story of conversion, both failed and sweeping and quote, and that really sets the stage both for what we've talked about today, as well as everything you go into your book, but it's also a compelling statement, because to think of an ambitious movement that is both failed and sweeping. It definitely conjures up some questions and some images in the mind of where was it failed? And where was it sweeping? I think we've gotten into that somewhat on the conversation here. But if you can just address that statement and describe in what ways looking back historically, at the end result, and what ways did they fail when their mission and in what ways was it sweeping and ambitious in terms of what they accomplished,
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:27:19
it was certainly a failure with the mainstream Buddhist community, like we've said, Burmese Buddhism became, if anything more pronounced stronger, more powerful in the face of all of this change and challenge. And so for the people in you know, lowland communities and you know, centers of power, those people, there's, they're very even, you know, Mission loves to keep numbers and so on, like, the numbers of Congress were very low. However, in minority communities, you had lots of people converting, and you had so even now today, Baptists Christianity is the number is like, is the most popular religion second to Burmese Buddhism and Burma. So you, Christianity, you know, the actual number of people who are Christians, and then of those Christians who are Baptists. I mean, there were some Catholics before them. But the but the Baptist Church is so strong there, and you go to some places, Christian communities, go to places, and borderline committees and so on, where you're in majority Baptist spaces. And so to really think about that influence, and then like you're saying, the more subtle influences the changes that are happening the way people are thinking about geography, you know, modernity, you know, world religions, all of that. I mean, we all know, just sort of intuitively that Burma goes through this huge change there. And so when I, the question I really had was like, what role did this, you know, small and quirky mission have to play in some of those bigger changes? And so that's where I think you see, I think, you know, you don't there's, like you say, and people don't talk about or think about Christianity that much. But then also, there's places where it has this this, there's this big impact. And so, you know, how can I have, you know, my I have this is not a very, you know, it's a small book, and just starting to tell some of those stories, but I hope that other scholars will, you know, kind of have more to say about this particular history about these particular communities, you know, their more recent histories, I largely look at the 19th century with a little like, bit on the 21st. But, you know, I really look forward to see like, where other people are gonna go with this? Because I think there's a lot more to be said.
Host 1:29:23
Yeah, I think there is for sure. And that's I think it's so interesting to contrast the as we as we've just touched upon briefly in both our own personal lives, the way that Burmese Buddhist practices have been spread and reached us and so many like us. And then looking at that, that contrary movement of the religions and the cultures of our countries then, a couple 100 years ago going and reaching audiences in Burma, this these different transfers of religion and faith and practices and that makes me also wonder in terms when I look at the passion The movements that have spread and the different communities that hold with a certain kind of reverence figures like lady say it or Mahasi, say it, or SN Goenka or say, Juba can or some of these other Burmese Buddhists figures that have managed to bring this practice outside in unusual ways. How are these American missionary personality seeing today in these Christian communities? Did they hold them with a similar kind of gratitude or reverence or, or interest? How are modern and contemporary Christian communities in Burma? How do they look at these historical figures that really were the origin of their faith?
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:30:36
So this is where I kind of go in my last chapter, I was curious about the legacy of this movement and because they were celebrating their 200 year anniversary at the right when I was doing my graduate work, I was able to go in 2013 to see some of the ways they were being memorialized. More generally Judson at an arm Judson is, is remembered for first translating the Bible into Burmese and his work on the English Burmese dictionary. So the terms of sort of linguistic and and translation efforts more generally, and again, people think about the schools. But within Christian communities, there is a real celebration of these figures and of the stories that they went through and of their sacrifices. They talk about Adam, Adam Johnson's first wave, and how you know, the all was so so many babies who end up dying young miscarriages, she had an arm Johnson becomes in prison during the first Anglo Burmese war, she sneaks his Bible that he's working on into the prison, she keeps him alive through, you know, selling off her goods of her house, she does all this stuff. And then he works on the Treaty of yendo. That ends the war. And then by the time he gets back to see her, she and their little two year old baby have died, you know, there are these really dramatic stories of sacrifice, are told over and over again, especially of these founding missionaries. And so I was interested to see what that looked like, you know, in a contemporary setting. And so, I traveled with a group of Baptists to the American Baptist Historical Society, it was a kind of pilgrimage to some of these sites, and Myanmar and meetings with different communities. And one thing that I was really struck by was how many pictures of Jesus and the Judson's were just on display, you know, they were, you know, in churches and and pamphlets, and sometimes they would even be blonde, they were brunettes, you know, we have we even have a miniature of anvil, like, they would start to look even more foreign and more blonde. And so it made me think about not only how they had become kind of martyrs, you know, in a way, almost like kind of saints celebrated for that. But also how their foreignness was really important to the story, they had become anglicized to the point of being blondes, you know, and, and even the clothing that they would dress them in for these portraits would be this Edwardian fashion to these high collars and these for anyone, they would be terribly high. And of course, they didn't dress like that at all there, you know, but this idea of wanting to remember them that way. And you know, and it wasn't like, oh, they didn't know that it was like, it was a choice. It was a choice to sort of, like we talked about Orientalism it was a kind of exotic cessation that was important, and was sort of celebrating this sort of internationalism, it's American, this Western, this global history. And so, you know, I think that was 2013 A lot has happened in the country, as you know, better than I do since then. But there's a real interest in telling a lot of those stories of the Americans and then the first converts and different people and really celebrating the real hard work that they had, and, and really thinking now in terms of, you know, human rights and the support of minority rights and so on, and kind of pairing that with Christian missionary history that was, was working for the, you know, for, to help a lot of those communities in ways beyond just conversion. And
Host 1:33:49
I think that was so fascinating in your book, because you you you describe and show these pictures, these Burmese artworks showing just the highly exotic FIDE westernization and foreignness of the Jetsons. But then you have one image that's the other way around, that's actually Western or American artists portraying Jetson when he was in prison, and then it goes the other direction, and then they're in these fanciful, exaggerated Burmese dress. And so it just kind of speaks to this kind of desire, I think in humanity to always want to exotic size and to make connections with the other and with the foreign and this is so fascinating scene, you know, the Burmese artists kind of highlighting and showing their western nests and they're they're closing their features to just absurd and unreal proportions that wouldn't have existed in actuality. Whereas Yeah, the exact opposite the Western painters that are wanting to highlight they're in you know, exotic Burmese jungles and this is what they're wearing. And these are what the conditions are. So just kind of speaks to that underlying thing and humanity that we we were always in search for that other and that association was something that is very far away from us. He
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:35:00
has that picture too is amazing. I'm obsessed with that one illustration because you have Judson on his knees and you've got a piano. Yeah, that is a really fascinating piece of artwork.
Host 1:35:11
Yeah, so just to wrap up this conversation and move it to present day, which you've already alluded to with the military coup. And, of course, we don't have to go back just a couple years to the military coup to look at the persecution of ethnic Christian communities. This has been unfortunately happening for decades of the military's rule. And I've spoken to so many ethnic Christians who've talked who have just told terrible stories about and this is in previous years, this is not even post military coup. This is pre transition years of, you know, restricting religious ceremonies and gatherings, meaning Christian, restricting the building of churches, tearing down crosses, and ethnic territories, and forcibly building pagodas, which is I mean, this is always something when I hear as a as a Western meditator practitioner, this is something that gives me such pause and discomfort, because my association with coming to Burma has been just this beauty of this pagoda on a hill and just the reverence and the faith and that that instills and when I started to hear about how other other ethnic and religious minorities that that they their rights were stripped away to have a forcibly a Buddhist monument built in a place where there were no Buddhists, that represented a lot of nuance and confusion in terms of my own faith and not being able to come and just kind of as naively and simply be able to say, oh, a beautiful pagoda a remnant of the Buddhist faith that reminds me of my own inner quest, and, you know, the Buddhist country that and the reverence that I'm in it just it makes things so much more complicated when you start to hear those stories. But, you know, certainly there is this sordid history of persecution of, really of all types from preventing religious activity and freedom of religion and expression and holidays, to, of course, much worse, the violence, the rape, the torture, the the incursions into ethnic villages that have been going on for so so long, and that really have not captured the international audience's attention as the Rohingya crisis was the really the first of these aggressions that was so vile and so egregious that it really did make headlines and transcend borders. But you know, a lot of these ethnic communities, they've been going through really something very similar, if not identical over a much longer period of time that has persisted, generation after generation generational trauma that you're talking about. And then we have the military coup. And, and, and it's and they certainly have, you know, in the transition period, many of them that I spoke to had better things to say about the freedoms they had in the transition, not ideal, but they had certain freedoms and religious expression that they never had before. I mean, the pilgrimage that, that you took, that even something like that, it's hard to imagine happening outside of the 2000 10s. And there were so many activities like that, that were happening. And now it's thrown back into, you know, churches being were all the time being faced with news of churches being bombed and priests being killed and different violations of religious minorities and ethnic minorities, we hear so much with the Ranga and the Muslims, but we shouldn't forget the Christians as well, they have been an object of persecution for many years and continues to be for this day. And so in your research, as well as the connections and the friends that you have there, what do you have to share about what that ethnic Christian experience has been? Especially since the coup?
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:38:43
Yes, I mean, it's, it's really awful. And like you say, I mean, there have been these ongoing persecutions you think of Koran and kitchen sort of civil wars going on for so long, and the violence and the way that they didn't sort of get their attention? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's really hard and, you know, the people that I've been able to be in touch with, and then really the scary parts of the people who now I've lost touch with and you know, it's, there's so much there to try and think about what's going on with the community. You know, you hear people really trying to want to document some of these atrocities. There's a great book, I don't know if you've seen it yet rights refused by Eliot press mannequins. And one way that I tried to think about it clumsily, just in the last few pages of the book, and the conclusion, was thinking about the three finger salute that became really prominent as a sign of resistance that had been in other places like in Thailand and Hong Kong, and how it got taken up so quickly, after the coup, and what it meant and for me, I was really moved by artistic renderings of it and pressed me to think about what it is to use various traditions and symbols and, and new and familiar ways. Because, you know, obviously it comes from that three finger salute comes from The Hunger Games, and there's this you know, it's a part of American Book series in a Hollywood franchise, you know, and so you might say, Oh, this is American cultural imperialism, like is it just the more Americans coming and, and you know, just just being overly dominating in terms of like, there. But of course, as you know, or anyone knows it's paying any attention, this movement was was using this powerful symbol for very specific and local and you know, this meaning connecting to larger, you know, concerns about oppression and what it's like to be a part of, you know, feeling as if you're in these these kinds of situations and wanting to fight back, even though everything seems so weighted against you, you know, and so, I'm really inspired, I think, at first, it was just so devastating, but I know that there's forms of resistance, and Elliott's gonna tell you about a lot more of them. And it's gonna be great and thinking about acts of refusal. And, and so I know that there are ways to think more positively about possibilities for the future. But I, I will say that when I hear about, you know, specific instances of violence and atrocities, it's it's really heartbreaking.
Host 1:41:03
Another thing that comes to mind, as I think about this is just of the many different ethnic Christians that I've had on to speak about their life and experience there, to a person, they're describing these horrific acts of generational trauma, and just the fear, the terror, the oppression, the constant fleeing the inability to develop their own community, because any sign of development or supporting their own infrastructure that gets torn down and taken away from them. And to several of them, I've asked this question where I framed it by saying, you know, excuse me for the how I'm, I'm about to ask this, I don't know any other way to say this. But just simply how do you not hate them with everything in your heart, you know, describing this, this, this oppression that's been faced on you for so long, and this terror and this prevention of growth, and of sustainability? How do you not just see with hatred every moment of your life, and going back to again, these kind of the history of the consequences of some of these historical conversion and religion spreading, many of them will share, because I follow the example of Jesus and wanting to forgive wanting to turn the other cheek. And this is what I really live. This is what the core of our teachings are. And it's just so remarkable to think of those early to tie a bow in this conversation and bring it full circle to think of those early missionaries, if they were to see, you know, a couple 100 years after their arrival and their intention that you're hearing these ethnic voices describing and you're fully embodying and internalizing and associating with the deeper beautiful teachings of Jesus in describing how they're able to continue working for the betterment and the stability of their own society, while also not giving into a hatred that they've been told by their religious and spiritual leaders, that this is not within our, this is not within our practice, this is not within what our teacher advises us. And so and so they're able to continue this resistance by by describing how they're not able to just slip into a hatred that I think it's hard for many of us to understand where that kind of grace and, and power and rectitude comes from given what they faced over the years.
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:43:33
For sure, I mean, that's so moving. And, you know, and I think that really speaks to the way that you know, we should be thinking about religious history, because we think so much of how, you know, religious communities and individuals are political, and the roles they've played in certain kinds of political and economic developments, you know, but the way that religion really has this distinct way of giving people are access to these other kinds of powers, I mean, the power of compassion, or forgiveness, or grace, or, you know, of, you know, Metta or you know, all of these kinds of things, that people, you know, that that's what religion feels like, and means to them, you know, and so, in trying to tell these stories, that's the real challenge, because you could spend a lot of time on the atrocities you could spend a lot of time on the horrors of, of colonialism and imperialism and, and you know, cultural misunderstandings, but you also do want to make space for, for the power of those things like compassion, of grace of liberation.
Host 1:44:35
And, yeah, as well as not taking away the agency of those people that have decided to take on a new religion as you describe them as objects of Western imperialism, but seeing where their own interest in agency is lying and being grateful and appreciative for this new way to progress with their community just as you and I and many people listening have been grateful that the teaching So Buddhism and meditation have reached us.
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:45:01
Right? Yeah, that's really well said, Well, I'm impressed you got you talked about all sorts of things. But But I do, you know, I appreciate you reading the book. I'm really excited. It's weird to have it in the world. And it's, it's encouraging to hear that there are some people reading it, and then it's giving them some things to think about. And I welcome conversations just like this one. So thank you.
Host 1:45:22
Yeah, and I definitely want to plug the book again, for those listeners that
Alexandra Kaloyanides 1:45:26
are let's call it Religious chants, religious chat I was.
Host 1:45:30
I was I was just gonna make sure that I said it wrong. And maybe, maybe tell your designer to make like a cheat because, or maybe it's just me squinting at the wrong angle. But baptizing Burma is the name, religious change or chances it'd be like to call it in the last Buddhist kingdom, there's a lot more in there that we haven't gone into. We've just covered the main points. So I, I do want to encourage listeners that are interested in these themes, whether you're coming from a Christian or Buddhist or any other background, that there's a lot in there that shows where this movement has impacted more than just the lives of the Christian missionaries. But where I think as we've shown in this conversation, where it's reverberating in perhaps unpredictable ways that affects many of us today, and is relevant even to looking at the post coup, Myanmar. So that's been great to explore. And thanks again for coming on to discuss and share about that. Thanks. So thanks, all you guys listening.
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