Transcript: Episode #261: From the Ground Up

Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.

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Host 0:19

Music, just a quick note before today's show, while we have transformed our entire platform to respond to the ongoing crisis, increasing our production of both podcast episodes and blogs, we cannot continue without your support. Please consider making a donation or contributing as a volunteer To support our active engagement At this critical time. You Saw Kapi, I'd like to thank you very much for joining us on this episode of insight Myanmar podcast.

Saw Kapi 1:58

Thank you very much. Thanks for this opportunity. I grew up in Myanmar until I was 18 or 19. Then I spent a few years, quite a few years, along the Thai Burma border in 1988 from 1988 to 1994 then I migrated to the United States. I stayed there, lived there, went to school there, studied for quite a few years and worked in higher education sector for about 11 years, until I returned to Burma in early 2013 since then, I started working. I have been working in education sector, and I am also currently working. Started I found a school called the school called the School of governance and public administration, and I am the founding director of it.

Host 2:46

Thank you. Great. That's that's a massive biography of work and accomplishment at warp speed. So we'll get into each parts of that journey, starting with just your background. You mentioned being from Tangu, and then at 1988 of course, a very important year going to the border. So can you share about your background growing up in tango, a bit of your family life and neighborhood life, as far as is comfortable, and then what drove you to the border in that pivotal year?

Saw Kapi 3:12

Yes, yes, yes. This is very interesting part of a part of my life. Actually, I grew up in tongu until I was 18. I was then second year a college student, a government Technical College student there. But in 1988 August, May, June, July, August, September, students uprising broke out in the country. I joined the movement, students movement for democracy at that time, and then September 18, when the military took over power the first time, not 2021 on September 18, 1988 after that, I stay in the country, or lived in the country about a month after military coup. Then I came to the Karen resistance area. So the having myself getting involved in students uprising and being part of the democracy struggle in 1988 was the reason I had to come to the Taipei border and join the student resistance forces at that time.

Host 4:19

So when you were involved in the 1988 uprising, that was in Tangu, or you came to Yangon.

Saw Kapi 4:24

It was in Tangu because I was going to college in Tangu, and I started joining the movement in Tangu.

Host 4:30

So I think we've heard a bit of documentation about what was going on in Yangon and even Mandalay during those 1988 uprisings, and not so much that I'm familiar with with Tangu. So can you paint that scene for us of what was happening there?

Saw Kapi 4:43

Yes, actually, the in Tangu, not relatively small, but Tango is also an ancient capital of Burmese dynasty, and after demonetization crisis in. The country around May, after that, tongu was a quiet, not lot, not, not a lot of things going on at the time, but starting in on August eight, 819, 88 on that day, I think massive, mass protest started, or began in tongu So the whole country. So Tangu population in Aung woo joined the whole country, also led by students, believe it or not, in there was only a technical college, but student from ye Xin University came down to tango and also participated in demonstration and the whole city, you know, we march in the in tango, and then we that was the beginning of mass movement, or mass protest in a city called tango. And that's when I started, basically my political movement, as, you know, when I was 18, right?

Host 6:01

And one of the things I've heard about 88 that's been different and how things have developed since in 2021 is just how inter ethnic it's been, how much diversity and solidarity we've seen here, versus in 1988 where it was largely ba Mar student led. And so what were your experiences at that time of being a student on the ground and seeing the the BA Mar involvement in Ba Mar student involvement in some of those early protests against the military, and to what degree there was representation from people of different backgrounds.

Saw Kapi 6:34

Actually, in 1988 it wasn't only ba Mar student at the time, but they are students. There were students from different ethnic backgrounds also participated in in the student movement at the time, but they did not really articulate, or they did not really make their identity known. Meaning the protest at the time did not take the ethnic dimension. There's no ethnic dimension to that student, student from Burma, and that's it. And we just have to remember that we just came out of the socialist era. So the country has been, had been very closed, you know, very close to the outside world for a long, long time, almost 26 years. And therefore people at the time did not have, although we were basically oppressed and we were maybe the country was shut and very close. We were in a closed society until 1988 and therefore people just did not mention their ethnicity. But in actuality, different students from different ethnic background participated in it, and if it's a pretty broad student movement, but very liberal. Consider very forward looking and progressive. Consider the time they had to start that movement.

Host 7:52

That's very interesting, that you're talking about a consciousness of locked in that particular period in time, in history and place, of how ethnicity, identity, community was understood differently then than it is now. And I think it's it's good to hear that description from someone who was there, because sometimes we and just as this happened in Burma, it happens in many countries, where we superimpose kind of modern political understandings of what's correct and right to say onto previous eras and generations where there was just simply a different mindset that doesn't so much accord with how we'd like to see things today, but sometimes hard to judge the past in that same way, through those same lens. And so then for you, particularly, how did you How was identity played a role in understanding who you are and your your role and and part in the movement that was happening in the work that you're doing.

Saw Kapi 8:47

Yes, identity play a very important role all throughout my life, of course, and even in 1988 when we decided to come to to the ethnic resistance area, because I am a Karen, also, I try to, I came to the Korean ethnic resistance area, Korean National Union control area at that time. But as part of being a part of the struggle student identity at that time, or my identity as a student, was a lot more important and a lot more politically significant than my identity as a current. So I do have dual or even triple identities, however, in terms of political movement, in terms of political consciousness, and in terms of participating in these democratic struggles, my identity as student was at the forefront at the time. So identity plays a very important role, but ethnic identity at the time took second seats, and identity as students and the student movement, student led struggle or movement, was took at the front seat or the front row at. The time.

Host 10:00

So that leads to a question of you are you're in your understanding, you're a student first, and khren coming from the Khin community, second, and the the the ambitions and aspirations of the student led movement is really what's compelling you. It's largely ba Mar led, but not entirely, but it's really the the the the ideology that's driving it, rather than identity based. But as a Karen, as someone who's non ba Mar, in this wider movement, did how did you feel accepted and understood by your your your student peers, many of them who were bimar.

Saw Kapi 10:41

Yes, it was very interesting. Actually, it was my I came to the taipamar border at the time with three other friends, three other friends, two of them are two of them were my classmates or schoolmate at the time, college mate at that time, and one other was a university student from Moe main University, Moe Mia university, at the time when we call it. And one of them, four of us, came to the Taiwan border. I'm a Karen, my other one a Muslim friend from Moe Myanmar University. And another friend was the Chinese sino Burmese, a Chinese Myanmar friend or student at the time, and the there was a Burma friend or ba Mar students. So four of us came to the taibamar border from different ethnic backgrounds or different different ethnic identity or cultural background. But we accept each other, we accept each other. But one commonality that we had was that our political consciousness, the reason we want to establish democracy, or we wanted democracy in the country, came to us or we, we were able to gain that political consciousness through student identity or being students. Because in Myanmar until now, I think students led movement or student led progressive movements, very history. You know, very historical. Because even independent movement was also led by by students movement as well. And the role student play, all throughout the history of the country, was very significant, and people were very proud of it, and students are very proud of it. And we were part of that, that trend as well, right?

Host 12:31

And what I've spoken to different 88 activists who ba Mar activists, largely, who have described what it was like to go from ba Mar urban areas to then ethnic village life and how different and challenging those circumstances were, from food to living conditions, language and relations as well, some of the tensions that existed between some of the animosity and the mistrust that some of the ethnic groups had. You're a Karen ethnicity coming living in in a somewhat urban place, in terms of taun WebU, certainly not the jungle, not not a big city like Yangon, but more of an urban place, going to a university, State University, and then going from there to an ethnic, your own ethnic Karen region, but much more underdeveloped and a place that's been under conflict for for so long. And so what, in what sense Did you feel like it was some degree of coming home, and what sense did it feel like a foreign place that you had to adjust?

Saw Kapi 13:34

Yes, of course. You know, obviously I felt both right to some, to some extent, it was about coming home, because I also developed some of the or I also started learning ethnic struggle, or the political struggle, or political side of ethnic struggles, when I started joining, coming to the Taipei border, and started joining ethnic resistance movement, or student movement in the jungle at the time, and because we didn't get to read a lot of these histories when we were in the city, so we did not know, but I started learning, and when we came or arrived in the KNU or Korean national union or Korean resistance area with political leaders, we feel like we didn't feel a lot of different treatment, because political leaders at that time knows and understand student movement. They themselves at one at some point were students leader, even in the city themselves too. But the local area people, the local area mean, for example, villagers or people who are who are very local in those areas along the Thai Burma border, at the time, throughout their whole life, the only people that they know as ba Mar is the soldier. So. Soldiers, Burmese soldiers and Burma people are synonymous to them, and therefore their understanding and the way they perceive students or the way they perceive Myanmar students are quite different. They feel they don't trust that they didn't trust they also would like to understand better also, I think also from the side of my students, the way Burma students understand them also, was very different, because when you are, for example, part of ethnic rebel or ethnic resistance movement, you are termed as insurgents, terrorists, etc, all these bad people who do not, you know, who do not know how to behave civilized in a civilized manner, and therefore misunderstanding or misperception towards each other. But you know, to some extent, I had to play also a bridging, bridging role. And I think it didn't take us very long. We, I know, a year or two, we were able to establish trust, and I think it worked out quite well. But of course, the population that remained in the city, however, they didn't get to learn it until, for example, in the recent round of military coup.

Host 16:19

And so then what exactly were you doing and spending your time with in the border regions in 1988

Saw Kapi 16:26

Yes, I first joined, of course, the military. We had to undertake, we had to undertake military training, and then we were in the military battalion. But later, I also joined the teaching force, because you know, not a lot of people who can teach or who have some education background. So I was recruited into the teaching. So I started teaching for a high school in not very a place, not very far from Massad at that time too. And then later I moved down to the southern the Nina area. At that time, two thirds of the Nina I region that we know today were control, or were under the was under the control of Korean national union. So I went down there and served as teachers and also in under the mining department at the time for about three and a half years, until I migrated to the United States too.

Host 17:19

So that was really quite some time where you were continuing with the revolution with the hope that you would see success. And after 1988

Saw Kapi 17:27

Yes, there was quite altogether, almost like four years and eight, eight months, I decided, before I decided, we decided to to migrate to the to the United States. It took us for because we wanted to give it a try. But I also quickly realized that education was very important. We need to make sure we are able to, for example, understand our own struggle, and we that the revolution, or the Resistance Movement itself has its own political goal, and also in order to achieve our political goal, we need to also help our people gain some education. And therefore, those of us who had a little bit of education background needed to continue our education. And that's the very reason that I decided to to leave and pursue education, further education.

Host 18:23

So in the revolutionary struggle and in the new country you wanted to create in overturning military rule, it was really education that you started to invest your time and importance into knowing how to be an educator yourself, and then how to share that with the future in the country you'd like to see. I think this is also interesting, because at this time, as we see today as well, people that are coming from different backgrounds, trying to see what they can contribute, are landing on different areas of focus that that are central to them. And I'm highlighting this now because this early area focus that you started to gravitate to, this, of course, has shaped your whole journey up until contemporary times. Going forward, is this role of education.

Saw Kapi 19:10

Exactly? Exactly. It depends on how long things take, how long the resistance or revenue the movement takes as well, right? Yeah, because if the revolution takes about eight months to a year, or maybe two years. It's okay, but when the revolution takes more than 10 years, 20 years, we cannot afford to afford to let the whole generation grow up without education at all, and the to the the extent to which we can provide basic education in the revolution area is quite limited, or especially a lot more limited at that time. So we understood early on that some of us needed to continue and further our education. Some of us need to continue doing be part of the revolution, and also some of us need to be part of. Forces that continue to provide education, or whatever education that we can provide in the resistance area as well, simply because if we we allow generation after generation growing up without proper and and a certain level of education, then that danger is even more dangerous or the bigger the danger is, bigger than growing up under military rule, simple military rule only.

Host 20:29

And these cycles are just so, so devastating, because you never kind of get out from under of the putting out fires everywhere, and having to recover, and so trying to actually build something sustainable, whether it's education or infrastructure or economy or whatever it is you there's, there's never really the time and focus to not be harried and recovering and surviving, which is, of course, what the military wants. And so you're, it sounds like you're having to simultaneously figure out how to manage education in extremely less than ideal circumstances, because that's all there is, and that's all it seems there's going to be going forward, while also trying to build an education system predicated on the hope that one day there will be peace to be able to make these plans possible.

Saw Kapi 21:17

Yes, definitely. Because if you if we really think about it, it's we. I mean, we, we understood that it's almost impossible for the whole generation, or whole population will get a chance to to migrate and continue their education. And other country that is not that's not possible either. It's almost impossible for us to, you know, build our own education system and provide quality education in our area without some of us gaining or getting more a higher level or more advanced education from somewhere else too, and therefore the revolution, the resisting the oppression and also building up our own political foundation. And in the meantime, continuing to live and continue to to build up a whole new generation with a certain level of education is also very important. And therefore all these things has to have to take place simultaneously. And you know, different people or different part of people from different parts of the struggle have to take their own responsibility and try to do we just need to coordinate. And it also have. It has also has to be simultaneous as well.

Host 22:29

That's, it's, uh, it's just so much to bear thinking about it. It's, it's, it's just remarkable. Again, I've heard these stories so many times, but just to think about the intergenerational turmoil and pain and devastation that's gone on, and yet, while that's happening, how many people and organizations have continued to try to rebuild, even in the midst obstruction, yes,

Saw Kapi 22:53

yes, and that's that's The continue, the continued struggle that we are engaging until, until today, right? Because, because this is even now. We don't know when the struggle will end, and it will probably never end, but it has to transform itself from one stage to the next, and we need to make sure we progress and we advance. And therefore people, if we happen to be because not all of us were ready to pursue our education abroad, either because you need to have a certain level or certain access to a certain opportunity. So we we played our own role, and we just want to make sure everyone has their own role to to to play, and we just need to coordinate and synergize.

Host 23:51

You know, we need to it really just, you can't help but hear this and just think about what, what a a metaphor for really lightness and darkness. Yes, battling this, this eternal battle of these different forces that have come together for so long and that are continuing to this day. But then looking at your journey, so you mentioned in 1988 or 1988 you go to the border, you stay almost five years there, and then you realize you want to go to higher education in the US. So tell us what that was like.

Saw Kapi 24:23

So of course, at that time, opportunity came up for us to be able to migrate to the United States as as refugee. So I simply started everything from the very beginning again. So because I was a college student in 1988 but of course, I didn't bring any evidence. I We have to even reestablish our own identity when we migrated so back then and I started going to school called adult. Suu. So it's for people who are over 18 and who needed to, for example, brush up their English and also computer skills and typing skills, etc. So we started, I started from adult school and then prepare myself to take GED General Education Development, which is the equivalent of of of high school diploma. So it took me about eight months to prepare myself for GED tests and then started going to community college. It takes another two years to finish community college and then transfer to a four year school. So it's a step by step approach. One has to be very diligent and and have to have focus. You have to focus and, okay, I'm going to try to finish my education, because by the time I started my college, most of my classmates were a lot younger than me and I, at least, I was about four to five years older than most of my classmate at the time. But you know, we understand the value, the importance of education, especially in the resistant, revolutionary setting, and therefore we took our steps.

Host 26:18

And this is not just an educational journey you're continuing, but also this cultural transformation of now being in America, being away from your homeland for even longer and even further away. What was that like at a personal level?

Saw Kapi 26:31

It was, it was quite difficult at the very beginning, at the very beginning, because I felt like my body was in the United States, but my mental state, or my thinking, a lot of my thinking, I was still in, in the jungle, or with, with, with the resistance, or most of my comrades in the jungle at The time. But I also know that, okay, I was given this opportunity. I need to make sure I am able to take it and then educate myself. And therefore, at the very beginning, I try to make a lot of we try to make a lot of friends. But fortunately, in I we arrived at a small town in California, at the time, Central California, we were able to start taking classes, and through friends and new friends and through different organizations support, we were able to enroll ourselves in college. So started taking classes and I basically we were very fortunate and blessed in many ways that we encounter professors who understood our you know what? We have to struggle and it this is what is, I think I appreciate most about us, education system, community college systems is, I think it's very unique to us, education system and professors, there are very community oriented. So they they they want to know our personal story, our background, and when they try to help us, counsel us based on our own experience as well. So we it was difficult, but we were able to go through because of our, you know, the good people that we encounter at community college and adult school as well.

Host 28:31

So that was a lot of years of schooling in America.

Saw Kapi 28:35

Yes, altogether, basically, since as soon as I arrived in United States, I started working as a dishwasher for almost four and a half months.

Host 28:43

What part of the country was that?

Saw Kapi 28:45

It's in Bakersfield, California, right? Yes, it's in bigger Street, California. I started washing dishes in my first job for four and a half months later, I transfer, or I moved to a new job the hospital. You know, I do hospital transportation and and because they allow us to work weekends and also in the evening and daytime, I go. I We took classes. We took classes. We started taking classes in typing and basic English and a little bit of Office, Office, work, filing, etc, because we need some skills in order to be able to move up to a better, you know, a more decent job as well. But we were able to do that and go to school at the same time. And it took us about two and a half years at the community college until we were able to transfer to four year college.

Host 29:50

And then Which college did you go to?

Saw Kapi 29:51

I went to San Francisco, State University, California, State University, San Francisco. Little did I know that it's a very it was. Very expensive city, but I wanted to study international relations and and transfer there, partly because we also had had a friend who offer us a very reasonably cheap housing or accommodation right near San Francisco, and I commute from the place to the university, which is university is in the heart of the town, right?

Host 30:30

So you complete your education in America still feeling psychologically like part of you is back in the jungle with the resistance, and ultimately end up with a degree. And so what happens next to that time in your story? What How old are you? What year it is, and where do you go next?

Saw Kapi 30:46

So I said I went to school six, six and a half years straight, because I continue my graduate study right after undergraduate as well after graduate school. I just apply for jobs. At that time. You have to go through newspaper or Sunday paper or weekend papers and and go through all the all the job announcements and apply for apply for it. I apply for different jobs, and I without knowing what I will get, what kind of job I will get, I applied for different jobs, but I started, very fortunately, I started. I got a job at University of San Francisco, it, which is a private university, Jesuit university, in the city of San Francisco. I started working there as a almost like as a credit evaluators at the university. So So Little did I know what I was going to do, but they train us right. They train us. So unintentionally, I got into into higher education sector in the United States without prior planning. That wasn't really what I planned or what I knew before, but I was given opportunity to start working there. So I started working for university one after another. The first university was University of San Francisco, then University of University of Maryland, College Park. Then I came back to California, California State University in Bakersfield, where I serve as university admission officer, a director for for over a year before I returned to Burma.

Host 32:34

And tell us about that, because that's that's really where the work you're doing now, the current adventure really takes another level, and your story intersects with the story and development of Burma itself.

Saw Kapi 32:47

Yes, it was in 2011 that I moved back to California. I started working for California State University in Bakersfield. But come 2012 more like we began to see as not that, not ideal situation, but the transformation began to some extent, meaning semi civilians, or, you know, allow civilians, leaders were allowed to participate in political process, and always in my throughout my educational journey, whenever I wrote essays and for my educational journey, or for scholarships here and there that I Have that I wrote my essays, I always said, Okay, after my school or my education, if I am, if there is an opportunity to go back to the country and do something, contribute back to the political process, we wanted to. I wanted to. So even though I was only in 2011 that I moved back to California. A year later, I started talking to our friends, and hey, this is, these are the things that are going on in the country. Are we interested in in, you know, we always thought about contributing what we learned or what what we have gained back to the country. And therefore we began to think about it very seriously. So 2012 December, I and a couple other friends decided to at least go back to Yangon, apply for visa, go back to Yangon and see what we can do. So our first few 28 days at that time was just observation and look for okay, what can be what can we do? Can we really do anything? You know? So we started in 2012 December. But I actually did not go back and and work until 2013 November or so. So it's a year later. I. After the first time going back to the country that I started settling in in Yangon and started working there. And what work was that, when he started, I worked for an organization called the BA Education Foundation, at the BA Education Foundation, and we, we run some bridge education program, college preparation program prepare students for their overseas studies or further studies abroad, those kind of thing, and also teaching them critical thinking, critical how to do critical analysis, to write their own analytical papers, both in English and Burmese, etc. So we started with basically basic critical thinking and social some social science or social studies classes that we think are key and foundational to their further learning.

Host 36:01

What was that like to be back in your native country after so long away and such hardships that you personally endured in the country itself, endured, and then this budding opening with the transition and doing and starting preliminary work in the field you love, of education. What was that experience like for you?

Saw Kapi 36:19

Yes, it was. We had, I had a mixed feeling at the time, the transition we knew wasn't ideal at all, but we wanted to give ourselves a chance to try to do whatever we can. So we went back. I went back and we were not really welcomed by the political elites or people who were in charge, you know, politically in charge of the country at the time. But I quickly realized that when I started talking to young people in the country, they have so much energy, yeah, and they really, they are so inquisitive. They are intellectually inquisitive, and that inquisitiveness that triggers me, okay, we need to, we need to make sure we jump onto this energy, and try to do whatever we can in order to to to bridge them or that energy with the real opportunity. Because even though they are intellectually inquisitive, they have a lot of energy there. We see, we also see that there is a big gap between the actual opportunity and there where they are currently are, and that's how we see we I began to see my role and our role people like us, you know, the role we, we can play. So we, that's why we started thinking about being the bridge, or building the bridge, to be able to connect them, that energy, that inquisitiveness of people, young generation, who are very inquisitive with opportunities that they can get. And I think we also realized at that time that the country was so far behind, because, I mean the physical infrastructure, the damage the physical infrastructure is one thing, but the damage that the military regime has caused to people, psyche and thinking and and There are so many intangible and not so obvious damage that the era the military regime rule, cost to the younger generation. And therefore we think, okay, we need to do we need to do whatever we can. They have a lot of hope. They have hope, and they are so glad to see us coming back to the country as well. So even though, honestly, speaking, I or we were not welcome by the political elites at all, or not that political elite invited us to begin with, but we went back to the country, and I went back to the country in order to work directly with this younger generations, who I think should be the leaders, should become the leaders of the country. And today we see in the tun post 2021 military coup movement in the country, that generation that gained access to the outside world and gained access to education abroad are now basically they have a different level of thinking, and they are now basically leading the movement and the transformative process, transformation process of of the country right right now. And I think that's what the military, current military regime is surprised by.

Host 39:53

Yeah, yeah. That's really remarkable, because you're talking about leaving the country in 88 as a young person, a student yourself, and then coming back and. 2012 is now a an educator and a more mature person. And so you have this sudden contrast that you're able to make because you did not see and feel the gradual development you have this before and after kind of approach that you're able to contrast very clearly, 1988 youths to 2012 youths, and then to post 2021 youths as well. But just staying on that contrast between 88 and in 88 of course, the country had been closed for quite some time and had its own isolationist policy. And was not I, as far as I understand, was not in great educational shape even up to that point. But how would you being an educator and a young person, someone who's worked with young people all these times, what are there examples you can give, or more details or colors you can provide, as to the 2012 things you were finding in youths, showing you giving, providing you evidence that there had been a serious degradation from 1988 and the time that you've been out.

Saw Kapi 41:05

Yes, I mean, especially upon my arrival back in the country in 2012 December, I visited a lot of educational places where people gather for education, even though they were not formal education institutions. And also I visited some form of education institutions as well. That's what I do, whenever, wherever I go, anywhere until, until now and then I begin to think that, okay, on the one hand, a large number of populations, a large portion of segment of populations. They were in that very damaged education system and did not even know what they missed. I did not even know, though know what they missed, but there are also a small spark segment of population out there who, for example, not through formal education channel, but through different education center, including, like, for example, American Center, British Council. And also, there are some church based, privately led offices and institutions that they get access to, for example, the taste of education. Education outside of the country. Those are, that's the population that, for example, understand, okay, they get a taste of it. They want more of it. Yeah. And therefore they, when we meet and we talk to them, I was surprised by their ability to think critically, and I was surprised by some of the questions that I received when I started talking to them. You didn't get a formal education and you never study critical thinking, or you were not you did not grow up in the critical education and traditions, but you asked me this question, and I begin to learn that they they study, and they learn that from outside, on their own and and therefore, okay, this is something that we need to, you know, nurture and look for ways to be able to provide them more opportunities. But I think the difference also is that overall openness of, you know, opening up of of the country as well. Because by the time I left in 2019 88 I did not. I hadn't I did not. I had never had the chance to touch on a computer keyboard, sure, yeah. And also, we did not have email. We did not know what email was at the time in 1988 at all. So, but by 2012 they begin to use internet. They begin to use, you know, communicate, a mode of communication, modern electronic communication, so they were able to utilize that and be able to access even more to knowledge and to a little bit more easily and more accessible, more accessible, accessible to them. And I think that's what makes a huge difference for for that particular generation. Because I remember when I came to the jungle in 1988 I brought with me three or four books. And when I had nothing to do in the jungle, just keep on reading the four or five books again and again, again and again, because we didn't have any other sources of materials to read from. Because if we didn't bring, or somebody didn't bring it to us. We didn't, we don't have any, we didn't have anything. Yeah, but that generation in up to 2012 is very different. And I think the going in of a lot of international organization also brought, you know, other opportunities for them to gain access. To the outside world, right?

Host 45:00

But on your visit in 2012 just the very beginning, as the transitions just kicking off, you found that the students that you were meeting, the young people that you were in contact with, that there was a drop off from 1988 is that correct?

Saw Kapi 45:16

Yes, yes. Be because from 1988 to 2012 is about 2020, years, right? 20 years, there was a whole generation. Yeah. So the generation that I met in 2012 is the generation after us. You know, a generation, one generation after us. So they grew up entirely in under military rule. Yeah, they did not know, yeah. So they, and therefore those who have a taste of education outside of the former education sector, are the ones who number one, maybe by by by ways of their parents, or people who they know, or churches or organizations, or people who are in Yangon, probably who have access to certain organizations or certain education institutions. That it's right, you know, that's what they had. But you have to have a willingness or a desire, or you have to to be inquisitive enough to have access to the rare access to education outside of the former education sector, and that's a population that I think we have to start with in order to build a critical mass, for us to be to have to have a transformative power, right? Because to transform the rest of the country, it's not a one person or a small group job, but we need a critical mass. And I think between 2012 and 2021 or so, I think we were able to build that critical mass, or the critical generation, and I think that's the generation that is now, is now taking the lead in many sectors in the resistance movement and many parts of of the movement that are that is going on right now too.

Host 47:23

Yeah. So tell us about those nine years then, because we've been talking up to this point, really just about your re entry back in 2012 and contrasting that with 88 but then tell us about in more detail, these nine years that you're there, up into the coup and the as you've just indicated, and for just now, the real confidence you had and the ability of work you were able to do, and the growth you were able to have in the education with the students and where it was going, and then what it gave to that student body in terms of what they were able to do after 2021 after you to set the scene again. You come in 2012 you on 28 day visa. You're not welcomed at all by the military elite and looking for opportunities of what you can do visiting different educational facilities. So take us back to that initial visit and tell us how those next nine years panned out for you.

Saw Kapi 48:13

Yes. So first it was a visit. 28 days visa. It was a visit. So try to visit as many places as possible and try to meet with as many people as possible. And of the people that we met, we try to I met. I try to also meet with as many young people as possible too. So it was a visit, but it was intentional. And intentional. The intention was to be able to meet as many young people as possible to the learning age right, as many young people as possible. And so after that visit, we wanted to do something, and we see the gaps, you know, we we, I saw the gaps, what the gaps are. And then wanted to okay of these many gaps or gaps that we we saw which area we can fill. So begin to think about it. I begin to think about it a little bit more. And later, I joined that Education Foundation, and I realized also that of the many people that I spoke with, all these inquisitive and very young people who have strong desire to learn, are mostly from Yangon area. So when we started or I went back to the country and started different education programs, we gave emphasis to opportunity for marginalized young people who are from other parts of or outside of Yangon. Of course, people who are in Yangon also need help, but I think we also would like to give or provide as even opportunity as evenly as possible to those who are from different parts of the country as well. So. The education program that we started thinking about, we started providing was meant for or tun you know, we target students from marginalized communities. And when I say marginalized community, it's not only ethnic community, marginalized ethnic communities, but multi ethnic community. So therefore we have students from the guy mcguimander, Lee Kachin, Karen karini, you know, all these different parts of parts of the country. So we created that program. We invite them to come to Yangon. We train them for for nine months, nine months, and during the nine months, critical thinking class and basic social science and some basic international relations and also English classes that we offer to them, and we basically prepare them also for them to be able to apply for scholarships and continue their education abroad. Not all of them will eventually get scholarship, but majority of them someway, somehow, if not immediately, after nine months preparation. It might take them a year or maybe a couple more year after that, but eventually they will someway, somehow got opportunity. They will get some somewhere, somehow get opportunity to either study in universities in Thailand or in the regions, or some of them are in the in the Western countries as well. Of course, they have to apply for scholarship, but we prepare them for the scholarship opportunities that they need to apply for as well.

Host 51:37

And how safe did you feel during this time with the political developments taking place, and you're in education, which, as much as one would like to think that education is outside of politics in Myanmar, it's not very little is outside of politics in Myanmar. So to what degree were you feeling safe, both for you, your colleagues, your institution, your students, and what you were doing.

Saw Kapi 52:00

First of all, in Myanmar, education is highly political, and to be specific, education is highly politically contentious. Education sector is right. So I went back into the country fully aware of the fact that education can be highly political and politically contentious as well. But first and foremost, I thought of myself like I am coming back to my own country, my native country, and my conscience was very clear too, that we wanted to do this in preparation or preparing the next generation, the future generations, not to damage or destroy or cause troubles to the country, to the political process and the country too. Yeah. So we made it known, you know, but we kept ourself low profile most of the time. We didn't want unnecessary attention, or I didn't want unnecessary attention either, especially the first few years. Yeah, so we tried to do whatever we could, very quietly, but also, as somebody who, for example, speak the language, English language, and also lived abroad for so many years, look for access or opportunities abroad, and maybe also connect people from inside and people from outside or new visitor who are coming to this to the country, for whoever we already know or establish communication with or or contact with. We try to build that bridging, bridging be the play the bridging role as well. And I quickly realized that it takes a whole process, because from the start of inviting or bringing young people from rural or different parts of the country to Yangon, try to settle them and train them for about nine months, and then after that, we also have our alumni program, alumni activities, until they are able to connect with opportunities for them to be able to study abroad, etc. It takes several steps. It takes several steps, and we worked in partnership with a lot of community based organizations, but we are always cautious. I was always cautious, but I wasn't really afraid or felt my security was in jeopardy at any time, partly because I know I knew quite a lot of people who are in political positions as well, except that I did not. I. I wasn't part of that bigger political process, or I wasn't part of it, and didn't want, really want to be part that, part of the movement, but my focus was on education.

Host 55:19

But I we did know a lot of we do know a lot of people in this that political sector did things change in after the 2015 elections and the LD was in power in terms of your feeling of safety or not so much?

Saw Kapi 55:30

Not so much, not so much. Actually, 2015 election I felt, did not really bring us significant change that I thought it would have brought. However, I think we have to accept, we have to we accept the fact that, you know, they cannot also or or the party that came into power after 2015 elections did not have all the powers that we thought they should have, or they have either. So their hands are tied. They came into political power with certain string attached, you know, I think the 2008 constitution is surface, the strings. That is, that is, you know, attached to them. And also, they cannot do everything they wanted they wanted to do, and we understand that.

Host 56:37

We just accept that as a fact, and we do what we could within the given space that we had at the time right now, you mentioned how the result of what you were doing those nine years had an immediate impact in empowering and training, working with that young generation after the coup.

Saw Kapi 56:50

Yes, I mean one good example, or a few good examples are number one. For example, we recruited some young people from Kali city in Sakai region. They came to Yangon, they joined our program. Then they didn't get scholarship immediately, but we put them into internship program in our office for almost a year, when, when they were they were still looking for or applying for scholarship to study, to study abroad, and and the the score or they did well enough that they gained scholarship later, study for two years. But University, u peace, University of peace, the Costa Rica and Philippines, the joint program. And then came back to the country and another one study in Thailand. There are a few other who study also in Hong Kong. They came back after two years of their study, and they, one of them, started educational institutions in Rakhine, and the other ones are now leading pretty well known civil society organizations that are engaging in movement against military dictatorship in the country as we speak, and that, I think is very rewarding to know because nine year is about half of one generation, right, half the period what we call one generation. And I think seeing them leading civil society organizations, seeing them establish or founded, founding the community based education institutions, and some of them, we even see them, lead educational reform movement. And one, for example, even write international level, uh, articles, and also advocacy paper, etc. I think that's another level of movement.

Host 59:28

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's fantastic, that's, that's great to hear and to see, that direct connection. And then in your own journey, at some point, you start to shift, or maybe transition, from the focus on education to the focus on governance. So tell us about what brought on that change in what you were doing.

Saw Kapi 59:50

Yes, that's interesting. Very interesting to to because, like I said before, from 2012 To 2021 I was focusing on education sector 90% of the time. Of course, education is a very political sector, and therefore we had to engage in, for example, the system reform, because we cannot just train the be the bridge and train the younger generation, but we were also engaging in a system reform process, right? So education says system reform, etc, that we got involved. But we also are where we were aware that, for example, international community and also inside the country. There were attempts to fix the country from the roof, for example, you know, different organizations attempt to Okay. How do we change 2008 constitutions? How can we change the little the parliamentary process? And how can we get nationwide ceasefire a seal nationwide ceasefire agreement and and transform the country at the very top and roof level. And I think both international communities and people inside the country spend a lot of their efforts, energies and time and money resources for that process the last 10 years. But because the military, Myanmar military itself is not a credible partner to the process 2021 February, the first we knew what we know what happened. So my thinking was that okay? We give ourselves a chance for about 10 years to try to improve and fix the country, also from the top the roof, but now it is time for us to start doing something from the ground up. And I think I started thinking about it. And three months after military coup, I came back to the Tibet border. I came back to the border, because after that time, a lot of young people came to the border and tried to join resistance forces, and starting to join resistance forces. So I said, okay, the same thing that happened in 1988 will happen again. And therefore I came back to the Tibet border, and I said, Okay, we need to, because the last 10 years prior to 2021 we put all our efforts and emphasis on nipido and Yangon and cities inside the country, we did not pay attention to these ethnic resistance areas at all. So when these, a lot of young people left the city and came to the Taipei, Moe border, to the resistance areas, how do they how? How should they manage which sometimes we complain, okay, how do they accept these young people who come to this areas? So we came back and I said, Okay, we need to start helping build the capacity of these different governance entities in the different localities or different regions and different ethnic areas as well. And the best way to do is to create capacity building and educational programs in governance and public administration. So public administration is Moe almost is like an add on and add on component, because when you are in revolutionary mode, you think about revolution, you think about you think about governance and political change. But people don't really think about provision of public service, services and protecting the people and the public themselves, themselves. And therefore we added that public administration component, and we started thinking about helping build the capacity of people who are engaging or participating in different resistant movements. On the other hand, we also, I also understood that we need to prepare a new generation of public servants, or civil service people, public administrator administrators as well. Because in in Burma, we have about 350 townships. If you look at all the 350 township 50 township administrators, majority of them, almost 90% of them were former military captains. We cannot build a new country with this administrative force, and therefore it is important that we begin to do to train a new generation of public administrators. And therefore we started offering this online program that takes about six and half months for people who are or who are interested in participating in administering Township and districts in the country in a new setting in the future. So that's how we we switch our focus from normal, a more conventional education to somewhat demand based capacity building programs that we would like to we continue to run until today.

Host 1:05:36

This is a really key point. I want to go back to the example you gave of what it's like to have a military a former military man being in a position of local governance, authority, which you referenced, 90% are in that position, and the type of training that you're offering to civilians to go and undertake and be in that position. And I wonder if you could flesh out in more tangible terms what the difference is in terms of when you have those former military, largely men, I assume, if not all, in those positions, how they look at that position, how they interact with local community, what their mindset is and how they're seeing that position, and then the problems that develop at a very local level as a result of that, and then in a direct response to the evaluation that you've obviously made of why it's a problem to begin with, because you wouldn't have a training unless there was a problem To fix it, what you're trying to do in your training with this, this new class of civil servants, you're hoping, hoping to bring up what skills and mindset you're trying to impart to them, which will be a real departure from what we've seen up till now.

Saw Kapi 1:06:55

Yes, um, first and foremost, when you are a trained military personnel, and you come into the civil local governance sector, what they think about 90% of the time is to control to control the populations, to control the resources, to control the income or the revenue, revenue sources. So that's what they are very good at, and that's what they have been doing all along. So, but they don't think about it in terms of provision of public services and public servant mindset. I serve the public mindset. It's not there. And the other, the other major, the key point, other, other key point is people who came from military, people who think about control most of the time. They report and they see their accountability upward only. They do not see that they are accountable to the people. And downward accountability is not at all in their mind. They don't have that thinking at all. So the thing about, okay, I am responsible for accountable to, for example, my superior Ministry of Interior, and then, and then, you know, Minister of Ministry of Interior or home affair. Home Affairs is also appointed by or appointed through the confirmation of the commander in chief, and therefore, in a sense, a military personnel too. So, so it's all about military control and military military benefits from this administration too.

Host 1:08:42

Yeah. And when you're talking about being accountable to your military superior, not, in other words, being accountable means how much profit can I reap from this local place in order to personally give to this superior, personally, or for whatever fiefdom that he has, and so you're you're really the the the incentives for those accountability it's just getting further and further corrupt into this kind of like mafia, terrorist outfit that is just reaping the benefits from the people without any accountability or transparency or or provisions to them. It's all being taken from them into these higher level fiefdoms.

Saw Kapi 1:09:24

Exactly, and not only personally, but also to sustain that very institution, that very institution that produce that kind of people too. So that's what they do that, and that's what they're very good at. So for us, we try to change that, and we try to we see that in two different two different directions, or two different perspective. One is provision of public services. People who are the closest have to be a. Done by people who are the closest to the community on the ground. So almost like, in a way, a subsidiary approach, not subsidy approach, or concept of subsidiarity principle that we utilize, and we say, okay, if we need, we can establish a local level governance structure, and who will take charge of or be the leader of this local level governance are elected by the local different localities and people at the different local level. They will act and do things in the interest of this particular communities that they will they they have to administer the affairs, for example. So the work that we do, the governance, part of work that we do is to be able to create a tier, or the third tier, governance that is as close as possible to the local to the local people, and the competency of that 30 year governance, or 30 year government, is provision of public services because they know best what the community needs and wants and how they want to develop themselves. And therefore that part, that's how the way we think about public administration, or provision administration of provision of public services, and then third tier local government, governance, the two are connected and doing so will also directly help us build a future Federal Democratic Union that we want to build from the ground up, because there is no federal government or federal level government that we agree to and we Want to, we want, we wanted to establish right now, but by building this, each block of locality in the country, if we can do that, and do that well, gradually, when we come together one day, we should be able to build a state. We should be able to build the whole country, or the whole Union by all these localities coming together, I think that is very that's why building local good local governance and public administration sector in each locality is Very important for building a federal, democratic union or country in the future, from the ground up.

Host 1:12:45

Right now. Does this relate to some of the controversy that's come in the transition period and then after the coup of the GAD and the role of the

Saw Kapi 1:12:56

GAD it's very related. It's very related because, if we are able to create, if we want to create, to build a federal democratic country, whatever the function or the role that GED plays should be done by local different local governments, and these different local governments, they have to have their own, for example, competencies that, for example, the future state constitutions allow them, and they don't have to be accountable to the superior or upward. They have to be accountable to the people who elect them. Right? That's how we change the directions of accountability as well. So it's very important that way, and, and, and if we, if these local governance structure or public administrators are appointed by the top or the central government, we will remain the same as the previous General Administration or even the the previous as governance system I saw, it's going to be a very centrally control, centralized unitary system. But if we are able to build this 30 year local government, local governance, and governments in the country, and then come together as a union. Later, it's going to be a very decentralized they will they will be given a certain authority to take care of their own affairs, and then they come together as a union at the at the Union level, Union level government will deal with the whole union wide affairs, and maybe even foreign affairs and External Affairs even more. But right now we are still in the process of doing that. And then you can see in, I think, in Karenni, right in Kachin, some, in some cases, in Karan, state of KHULI, we begin to do that.

Host 1:14:59

It’s really quite. A striking example you're giving, because you're really talking about models that couldn't be more different of a model of as discussing, as is to say, a model built on exploitation and and being able to take as much as you can get from the people to see them as your local bank and your your everything that they have, and they can provide as something that you're entitled to, and you can extract until there's nothing left to be able to give to an elite group of very rich and powerful men that already have so much already and trying to transition from. And again, I use these words, a mafia terrorist kind of organization, to something that is fundamentally looking at this in a different way, a being accountable to the people, and being what we think of as a governance structure to be. I've always kind of recoiled at the term in Burma when they talk about the military government, because as far as I've understood, this isn't a government in any sense of the word as we understand this is a misnomer. And saying this is even using the language to call it a military government instead of a military regime or military junta, this is indicating that, well, they may not be the best and it may not be democratically elected, but this is the government that we have no it's not a government by any definition that I've ever understood a government to be. They are They? They? They are an extortion unit that happens to hold power and have a lot of weapons to enforce that power. And so the battle that you're waging, and the the ground level operations you're taking on is to fundamentally change that and promote a decentralized, democratized way of thinking, where those people in the positions, it's not a the position is not one to seek out the greatest level of corruption and exploitation, but to look at your responsibility to those people on the ground. So that's that's going back to this analogy that we talked earlier on your student days, of this real, forceful battle of lightness and darkness. This, again, you couldn't have starker reliefs of the light and dark battling in the form of this governance.

Saw Kapi 1:17:12

Yes, exactly, exactly. I think this is something like, you know, in order to remove darkness, you have to create more areas where light. You know, you can create more more more light. And I think, I mean, this is something. This is what federalism is all about, too. You know, politicians and people in the last 10 years or so, every people talked about, though the word federalism, we want to establish federal democratic system. Federal. Federalism is all about division of competencies and authorities, right? Authorities? When you have authorities, all the authorities concentrated in one institution, one area or one tier of government. That's that's very problematic. And I think what we are trying to do right now is okay, what are the affairs of each localities that we think they should take care of them on their own. They should administer their own affairs. These are the affairs that they need to administer themselves. We have no business going in and and telling them what to eat and how to how to run their city and how to, you know, how to drive in the city, etc. You know, we even law enforcement, for example, in a certain area or certain city. These people, if you create city level government, and this the government or officials at the city level governments are elected by the people themselves. They know how to take care of themselves, and they will. And do you know only affairs that are, for example, related to the whole union or all the different states? Okay, we take care of it at another level. So all we are doing right now is thinking about and trying to create the third tier, what we call local government and third tier level governance. And the third tier level governance, governance institutions are going to be the closest to the people, and therefore they will answer, and they are answerable to to the people in their community, and they know best their own problems and how to solve them as well.

Host 1:19:36

Now you reference this is something already starting to take shape, even in the revolutionary process that we're in, particularly in kathuli and kitchen and correni. You mentioned, can you give us some examples of some of the success stories, as well as the challenges of how this type of training and type of thinking, type of administration is already bearing fruit?

Saw Kapi 1:19:56

Yes. I mean in kathuli, we recently also published. First, or we work with Korean national union and and publish the governance and public administration handbook where all these township level or district level administrator will refer to and will reference and also, okay, this is, how do we how do we plan, or how do we make sure we consult with community and make sure the process is inclusive enough, and how we, how do we deal with diversity? You know, all these things. And I think we can see that in Carini, you know, the development of, for example, Guarini, state level IEC, the state level governance and how they allow a different township or administer themselves and different different type of administrations that are evolving emerging in the Korean state, and also how the Korean National Union is transforming its township administration and township administrators themselves, you know, for example, make reference to the governance and public administration handbook, and they begin to deal with, for example, diversity that they have within their Township. They begin to consult the public in their Township and try to make certain decisions that are, you know, relevant only for their Township, etc. And I think this is a huge development, emerging local level administration or governance. We that we are seeing post 2021 military coup, because there is no SEC governance. There is no central governance, the presence of any sense of central level governance in the areas. So they are trying to do that. And, you know, organization, or like, you know, IEC, in terms of council in the in the greeny and the Khin national union in Cotulla, are allowing their Township and their districts to be able to run their own affairs. And I think this is a very good example that we we see we are, this is not something that I can't we cannot claim, or I cannot claim, that we initiated this. They wanted to do this. We are helping along the process, trying to help build the capacity so that they can do the things that they want to do better and more efficiently, too.

Host 1:22:31

That's beautiful. I also contrast that with one of the criticisms that some of the eaos and ethnic communities have received from various parts of the international community, and observers have been that, well, look, these aren't really democratic organizations to begin with. They want autonomy. Sometimes they're engaged in illicit activities with the drug trade, or they they have their own patriarchal attitudes already built into it, and so these are kind of Western fever dreams to think that these are perfectly wonderful democratic institutions that are going to replace this evil military these all, and we can't obviously talk about the different eaos and ethnic organizations uniformly. There's many distinctions among them. But this is some pushback that we hear from observers and analysts on the scene that these are that these are not inherently democratic institutions. These are institutions that simply want their own autonomy, and what they do with it is a whole different story. And Yet, You're presenting a story in these isolated cases of some real successes, and even more so not going to them, but them coming to you for that education, which is really just remarkable. But how would you for those listeners that are trying to square away these success stories that you're sharing and what other analysts have shared in some of these organizations, being anti democratic, non democratic in their own ways and wanting different things. How would you sort that out?

Saw Kapi 1:24:04

Yes, I mean, we have to recognize, first and foremost, that these Eros or ethnic revolutionary organizations are playing a doubar role. On the one hand, they are still in resistance or revolution mode. On the other hand, they also have to govern, and they they they will want to be. They play a governance institution role as well in especially in areas that they control. So in some cases, it's we are seeing. What we are seeing is not a perfect democratic process, but for organizations that are engaging in revolution, this is a very impressive democratic process that these organizations are going through, especially when it comes to consultation with the public. For example, you. And especially when it comes to, for example, some good governance practices, and even some, for example, provision of public services and thinking about protecting the public even before, for example, strategizing military operations, etc. So I think the process may not be perfect, but the attitude, mentality and the desire to pursue certain ways and approaches show us or tell us, that these institutions are doing their very best, very best. Number one, to protect the people and take people into account as they plan for and and make some decisions that will be impacting the people as well. So and the only thing here is, some organizations are ready to write everything down and okay, you are accountable to this. Please go through this process. And you're going to have to go through this process, follow through this process, this procedure, etc. But in some areas, they barely started. They are not ready to put everything down in writing, because there are other political implications, complications that they still have to sort out. So I think it is important that they are given a chance to sort out some political issue first, and then, you know, start building and making the governance a little bit more systematic and improving on so the way I see this is, this is a very good start, a very good beginning, but it will be quite a long journey towards a more perfect, democratic system, reunion one day.

Host 1:26:53

Sure, so with your answer, I think there's a couple different ways that that interpretation could go. I think one is that I hear you expressing, look, this is a far from perfect process. This is messy. This is less than ideal circumstances. If I can extrapolate from what you said, you can go on to say how, how much were your own democratic processes in the West in terms of them being free from messiness, and just even looking at now some of our problems in the west and US and Europe that we're facing. So there's, there's one way to look at all this and say, you know, measure your your criticism, and look at, look more carefully at the challenging circumstances that people are facing and what they're doing within those circumstances. And please give us time to sort this out. We're on the right track, and don't judge us to perfect textbook standards that even your own countries aren't following. That would be one way to look at it, another way to look at it would be again to bring in that argument that is saying that there are some eaos Eros that are not necessarily committed to that have shown anti democratic, illiberal processes already, and that there's not an indication that they are open to this type of change and interest, whether one is and you mentioned three examples of places that are working towards this, but one can give examples of the AA or wa or tnla or other organizations that are other parts of the country where maybe those success stories aren't quite there. And so for just to keep kind of pushing back against the or to contrast this rosy picture that you're bringing, this promising picture, which I don't want to rain on. I want to celebrate it for all it's worth, but I also want to be able to to acknowledge some of the criticism that's there, and give you that chance to respond to those voices that would push to the anti democratic nature and real uphill battles that are not just a democracy as messy argument, but also is that, well, I Don't know if this soil is really at all receptive towards this. So how would you respond to that?

Saw Kapi 1:29:06

Yes, I think I am fully aware of some organizations, or Eros that are in a very early stage, and they are unable to, for example, initiate this kind of this democratic process in the areas that they control. My only not argument, but I will almost say like recommendation is to get the fundamental rights at the very beginning. Because if you don't some, if you, if we don't get some fundamentals right at the very beginning, we may never get it right. We will never get it right. So the system may not be perfect. Let's say, for example, we understand, I understand that they are in the revolutionary stage. For example, at this time, we are too in the revolutionary stage. But I think. Because being in the stage of revolution should not be an excuse of for us to not listen to the people. Yeah. And also, if we claim that this is the areas that we control or we want to govern, we have to govern the whole population. We cannot discriminate. This particular segment of the population is ours, and that is, the other segment of population is not ours, and we cannot just treat them differently. So our standard of treating the population that you know, for example, who are under the our governance, for example, we have to treat them right and to treat them with the same standard, for example, and also listen to them. And we are part of them, and they give us the authority to to to, for example, to govern so that it is important. It is important how we understand where our authority, the authority to govern, comes from, yeah, not because, because my only warning is that we should not really think that we get to govern the population because we have the guns and we are able to control the area. If we think that political authorities come from the bearer of the gun, then that the directions that we are going is to towards dictatorship, but if we think that we are given this authority, the consent of the govern so I think right now, we are in a revolutionary stage, but these different organizations understand, they at least understand that they need the consent of The people in order for them to establish a governance system. If we got that and and they get that, I think they will. Are. They are heading towards the right directions. However, they are always there. We all are always, I think we, we have always had some Eros that never they are never like the Eros that we understand, or I am talking I am talking about today, because they never started like A revolutionary organization that worked for the people so we, we, we want to make sure we distinguish certain Eros from the others as well.

Host 1:32:50

That's a very powerful acknowledgement at the end. And so it makes me think what can be done about that. What with that acknowledgement that there are certain Eros that have never seen the need, or had the desire to want to have different structures that represented was accountable to the people living in their territories. What does that mean for where we are now in this conflict and the future of federal democracy in Burma? Yes,

Saw Kapi 1:33:14

I think some of the existence of the existence of some Eros are due to the current military regime and the due to the Myanmar military, Myanmar military itself. So I think one way to deal with some of those Eros is to empower and to build the capacity of the good Eros, the arrows that are on the right track, and Eros that are really, that really represent their people, or the people that in the in the regions or in the areas that they they control, empower them. And basically, if we can empower them, and if we can support them, and if they can do more of what they do, I think other Eros will will also with faith there is one way of doing that, but I also am aware that so long as the darkest regime in Nibiru continue to exist and thrive. We will also have other their subsidiary er organization that are subsidiary to to the nebula regime. And I think it will be very difficult for us to to continue dealing with them, so long as we have that, and therefore number one is to support and empower and strengthen the ers, the good ers. And number two to make sure the source of these ers that deal with the drugs issues and gambling issues. And all these things. I mean, without Nibiru regime, they cannot survive. They are allowed, and they are able to thrive in certain areas because the regime in Nibiru allows them, because they serve their purpose, and it is important that we, we we do not accept it.

Host 1:35:19

Another thing I'm thinking, as you say this is, this is such a remarkable story, and it's such a it's really just a piece of good news. It's it's not the ending story. It's still something in progress, but it's a feeling for optimism. It's a feeling that things are going in a very positive and hopeful direction that we're seeing these signs of hope, that these long standing feuds, intentions and cyclical patterns of violence and instability, that there are Eros that are the desire is coming, the requests are coming from inside themselves to want to lead To a new future and to want to ask for help. And you know, really, when we think on an individual level, we often think that when someone has come to a point that they're asking for help, they're admitting limitations. That's such a helpful sign of progress. On an individual level, when someone says, I need help, I can't figure this out. I need to change in this way, and I don't know what to do, just that moment of asking for help and admitting that, that inability to find to that desire to want to lead to a better direction, but that inability to know how to do it, that that's such a hopeful sign in and of itself, and the fact that an organization like yourself is able to provide that help and provide that assistance of pointing that better future, providing trainings and other all other kinds of logistical support that you're doing. This is, this is, I don't want to over blow the optimism, because it's a very hard road ahead. It's a very, very hard road ahead. But this is even within that struggle and turmoil that's going on. This is, this is really great. This is really great that this is happening, and it's something that, in a modest way, should be celebrated and should be and when one is trying to get through a difficult period, again, whether as an individual or something much wider, you need to celebrate these momentary markers of success and optimism to boost your morale, to know that there's a brighter day to hold on to something with evidence that this is an evidence that's something I'm pointing to and that I'm holding on to, that good is happening and this can be built on for something greater beyond this, not just a theory or A something I'm telling myself or telling my friend, friends in this bubble, but something actually happening that's that's actually results oriented, that could be that a model that could be continuing to be built on, followed, expanded everything else, and so without wanting to move away to a sense of imagined optimism that ignores the rough road that's ahead, certainly, but wanting to to highlight the the small bits and even not so small bits of success that we can hold on to and celebrate. Is this something that you feel is not really known or celebrated or talked about as it should be, within this whole struggle and problem. And if so, why do you think that is?

Saw Kapi 1:38:25

I think partly because, due to security reasons, these stories are not, not out there. A lot. We don't hear a lot out there. But I think let's say, for example, because, for example, air potential air strikes, and the regime can still launch air against, you know, different areas, if we mentioned, okay, this particular area, we are developing the local gut, local level governance. And people are very active, and they're doing this and that the next day, it is possible that they will come and launch the air strike in those particular area too. So I think stories are not out there as much as we think we feel they need to be out there. It's because, you know, people don't tell a lot of those stories specific to the locations or specific to certain particular to the area because they are afraid of this potential airstrike and due to security reason. The other is the, I think, weakness on the part of international community itself, partly because people, you know, it's easy to, for example, if as part of your policy planning and as part of your you in the process of people would like to hear the stories of this, and that it's easier for for people to invite, okay, already known people who are already in Washington, DC. And Bangkok and Brazil and London and and it's it's quite easier to just listen to people there and then formulate your your policies, but I think it takes a lot more effort to look for people on the ground and to hear stories from people on the ground. So I think that effort is a little bit more it's needed on the so the first reason is for security reasons, for people who are doing things on the ground themselves. And the second reason is extra efforts, or additional efforts, are needed in order for, for example, those stories on the ground to be connected with, for example, to be to so that we can amplify and people to hear the real stories. But in a way that we are security conscious too. You know, I am fully aware of security issues that people on the ground are facing on a daily basis. And I am fully aware of also the need for people who have the wherewithal to support this kind of development. So I think more story needs to be told. A story like this needs to be told, however, with with the security consciousness in mind, sure.

Host 1:41:24

Yeah, and security is, of course, first and foremost the urgent consideration for all of this, that that proceeds and yes prioritizes over overall types of storytellings That being said, where security issues can be can be accepted and worked on, and where stories can be told without specific references to individuals or organizations or locations. This is this gets into what we talked about before the interview, of this sense of information war. Yes, and that, that there might be people that, as yourself and others that are very plugged in, inside the loop and know what's going on. But then there are the rest of us, or even those of us who might know things in some sectors but not in others, which is which leads, again, to why we have this platform and the purpose of these conversations that we're having to be able to to do our small part, and getting out these nuanced and informed opinions and perspectives and work of different engaged actors to put it out there safely in the public sphere, so that this can contribute to that information more. But you know, far, we're just one small platform, just doing what we can with a very small team looking at the wider scope of the Myanmar story and narrative and coverage of both of how it's portrayed journalists, where it's picked up internationally, which is seldom these days, as well as in terms of governments and international organizations. I think that these are the types of stories that, because these stories are are not just informing morale, which is something my last comment was more touching upon the importance of these stories in informing morale, something you could build upon feel good about. It's not just informing morale. It's also informing policy. It's also informing perspective and analysis and how this conflict is going. And if this is not information that people have, and if instead they have information that these are these are organizations seeking their own autonomy, away from democratic principles that are and then this flows into the narrative we've heard for so long that the military is this, this kind of Cold War era mindset, that they're a, yes, they're they're a bad actor, but they're a strong man, and sometimes you need a bad actor to hold everyone else together. And it's like, no, this is not the situation they are. You. No one needs a mafia, genocidal terrorist organization, quote, unquote, holding it together. That's That's absurd. So these types of stories are not just contributing to affecting and impacting morale, but also in being able to, to to to contribute and engage in this information war, in this information landscape, maybe war is too strong a word in this information landscape, and to be able to give in proper information of positive directions that some of this is going in that can then affect policy and support and international involvement and everything else.

Saw Kapi 1:44:20

Yes. I mean, I understand very well that, you know, most of us, or we have been focusing a lot on the bad things. The bad things that the regime has done is currently on doing as well. And I think it is important that to keep on pointing, you know, all these bad things that the regime has been doing to its own people in the country. So it's very important. However, if we focus on that alone, we it's only half of the story, because right now, it is important that we also focus on the good things that we do, the good things that we. Do, especially in order to replace the bad things that the regime has done. So I think this kind of development on the ground at the local level, with you know, us involving in the process, is very important to highlight the good things and the positive things, or the positive things that are emerging from different localities, that even if, let's say, for example, the regime collapse, or the region, the regime is no longer there, and when we rebuild the country, we're going to need all these these to be in place, the development of different localities and governance structure at the different localities, they are understanding their capacity the way that, how they understand public administration, etc. If we have that ready, it will be just because the regime collapse, there will be no power or authority or capacity vacuum, because it the Myanmar military regime has proven to us that they are, they don't have the capacity to build either nation or state or the interest or interest. They are not. They don't have any interest in doing that. But we are interested in we want to prove that we are able to, we have the ability to do, to do that. But we also need support from international communities and our neighboring from our neighboring countries to help us and support us in this process.

Host 1:46:30

Are you getting that support to some extent, but not as much as we think we need, or the communities need, right? And it's very interesting. I'm just, I'm pausing because I'm in my mind. I'm contrasting what you said, support internationally and support from regional actors. And these are two very different things, because not all of the regional actors are necessarily democratic themselves or have a an interest in the military being out of power. So it does get much more complicated there, as we've seen with the challenges of ASEAN and their involvement.

Saw Kapi 1:47:07

Yeah, yes, yes. So it's it's a continuing struggle. We need to continue advocating both our neighboring countries or regional countries, some of them are not supportive to our course at all, but nonetheless, they continue to be very important for our further, you know, progress that we make. But I think in as much as, let's say, for example, Eros are not really as united as we want them to be. I think international communities are also coming from different directions, and sometimes it's very confusing, right? You know, for example, even among ASEAN countries, different understanding of of commerce issue and different approach. And I think, of course, European countries and United States, North America, they also have different approach. East Asian countries, for example, Korea and Japan, they also have different approach. But it is, we think, is it would be a lot better if the international community and the regional countries coordinate as well, or are able to coordinate.

Host 1:48:34

Yeah. Now one other question I want to ask you is, we've been contrasting a lot. We've contrasted one ero against another, contrasted international and regional actors and the type of individuals you were training and the military commanders that were posted there. Another contrast I want to make, to analyze and better understand the distinction between these is when you first introduced what you were doing, you contrasted it yourself with the local ground governance that you were trying to promote, little by little, building up from the bottom with more the top down approach of looking at a federal democracy charter, a constitution, the the the looking at the elections, or some other real elite top structures that a lot of focus has been on, and in some ways, you presented the local governance structures that you're trying to set up as really intentionally as a contrast to these top down structures, which there seemed to be an indication that if all you're doing is These top down, you don't necessarily have the same confidence that they'll succeed, because there are they're not being built from the bottom. They're being imposed. And something that's being imposed can very easily not be adhered to or manipulated or not followed in some kind of way or the other. And so I'm wondering where you see the relationship, because I just want to pause. For this question to provide a little bit more of that context, that of course, there has to be some relationship between the ground context that you're setting up and the strength of these institutions to be able to rise on their own, and the overall more bird's eye view of what kind of system that they're operating in there, and what kind of structure and guidelines and rule of law has been set out. So there has to be some kind of relationship there. I'm wondering where you see the relationship between this bottom up approach, that you're promoting these ground level institutions, and because you have set that up to contrast with the strictly top down approach. Where does that top down approach of looking at the federal democracy Charter, the Constitution, where does that come into play with what you're trying to build on the bottom?

Saw Kapi 1:50:51

Yes, actually they are related, and they have to be related very closely, actually. And I think both approach we have to approach from both directions simultaneously, and we're going to have to meet somewhere at some point. So encouraging and and and promoting ground from the ground up approach doesn't necessarily mean we have to, we can undermine the approach from from the top as well. Because, for example, you know, the development of federal democracy charter, whatever the part that talks about the future, future Federal Democratic Union. Part one, I guess, is very important and fundamental. It lays the foundation for the future. What type of, what kind of a Federal Democratic Union we would like to establish in the future? What I have, or I personally have difficult time understanding or agreeing to is the interim arrangement or the part two of federal democracy charter. But you know, we we can have different differences in opinion, and it's, it's, it's okay, but we want to make sure we all agree to the type of federal, democratic union that we would like to establish, and therefore we started building the foundation for that. So the next level, or the next step is, for example, even in each state and region, they also need to build their own, for example, come up with their own constitutions that basically, that basically outlines what kind of states, regions or different units within the union that they would like to build, what kind of political systems, structure, etc. So that legal document, you can call it a state constitution, or you can call it state Basic, Basic Law. It doesn't matter, but a documents or a legal foundation that outlines the future type of states and structures that we would like to, we would like to build. What is the connection? Is whatever local governance that we are establishing, or we are trying to to establish, that has the public administration component at the local level. It has, it needs some kind of legal ground, or legal foundation, and that legal foundation has to be provided in the state or regional level, or the federal document that the federal constitution or democracy charter that we we outline, because we're going to have to talk about what competency these local governance, what, what kind of competencies and authorities will remain with this local governments, And what in the future we will have to share at the central level or at the Union or federal level. So the meeting points is the drafting or writing of all these states and region level constitutions or legal documents that we need to produce. And only then we will say, Okay, what competency these states and regional level governance will have, and what competency will remain with the local level government, and that the doc, a legal document that outlines division of competencies and authorities for local government, for state level government, or state or regional level government, federal unit level government, and also the federal government too. So that's a meeting point. I think that's a meeting point because look different all these local governance or governance entities that we are as. Establishing cannot exist or cannot continue to operate in a vacuum for a long time. Yeah, right. For the interim period, it's okay. We started with them, but at some point, we need a legal foundation, and it has to be at the state or region level documents, and in some cases it can be at the federal level Constitution as well.

Host 1:55:22

It's just such a compelling journey that you've shared yourself of going from a student activist, really a student activist, to a student, you know, who's whose education was interrupted, as so many students were then, and have recently to a student activist to in the jungle and continue with education and the nine year program that you ran on the ground until the coup, and then switching over into this public governance this, this has just been a remarkable personal journey that has impacted the country and society and the process and going forward. So I think it's really shown a light on and a window into not just your journey, but this journey of a country, one little part of it. So I really thank you for that. And I would also like to invite you, before we close, is there anything that we haven't touched on that you would also like to talk about?

Saw Kapi 1:56:15

I mean, thank you for this opportunity. I see this as an opportunity, and I think it is also important for our country people to hear positive stories, and it is possible for them to rebuild their country, or to build a new country from the ground up. And that potentiality and that possibility is a big hope for everyone in our country. I guess,

Host 1:57:00

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