Transcript: Episode #262: A Woman's Place is in the Revolution
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
0:14
So women have been very active in politics since, you know, since a long time ago. But we don't see them on media so often quite often. Usually, like we see men you know, all the time we see men in a lot of mainstream media. We don't see a lot of women at the decision making levels, you know, there's like very, very few women at the decision making level. And when you look at the arm revolution, there's not many women who are fighting at the frontline. The women are not actually getting the rights or the respect or the space or participation that they can provide to the revolution.
Host 1:08
If this is your first time listening to our podcast, welcome. Our programming brings a diversity of voices connected to Myanmar to share their perspectives, thoughts and reflections about what has been happening. There's this military coup in 2021. All of our guests share one thing in common a deep personal stake in the ongoing crisis. And it is an honor for us to be able to bring their voices into your ear buds. But however difficult it may be to hear some of their stories we hope that you will come away with a deeper and more nuanced understanding of what is happening.
2:07
Hey, evening, everyone, my name is Eliza.
Brad 2:45
And welcome back. Today my guest is in temple can and we are going to be discussing something that, again, we haven't spent perhaps enough time discussing and looking at, but that is the different facets of the roles of women, both in the broader Burmese societal context, but more specifically, in the current societal upheaval in the revolution itself and in the societal changes that are happening around that revolution and the ways in which society in Myanmar and in Myanmar communities internationally has responded to these changes. So before we get into the many different bases that I'm sure we're going to touch on, and thank you very much for joining us. I'd like to give you the chance to introduce yourself for our audience.
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 3:32
Thank you. My name is Hnin Thet Hmu Khin. I'm a woman's rights activist. I've been working on women's rights for for quite a long time now. But I've been more active and active since the coup in 2021. And I also work in Rakhine state during the Rohingya crisis, like 2018 in northern Rakhine State, providing humanitarian assistance, Euro hinges and other ethnic people.
Brad 4:03
And I'm sure we're going to be sort of touching on on that as well. But before we we move into sort of the Rohingya crisis element of this, let's talk about women's role in the revolution because it's not something that we think about in a separated sense, we think about the revolution and we've heard a lot of stories of Myanmar society, particularly among the Gen Z, the youth, particularly among the pro democracy, factions of society, embracing change, embracing societal progress, and therefore embracing feminism. But the role of women within the revolution doesn't seem to really be covered enough, suddenly, we haven't given it much attention. So can you start us off? Can you tell us a little bit about how you see women's roles in the current revolution and also whether you think women are being given the opportunities that they deserve to be able to contribute to the revolution in the best way possible.
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 5:04
So women have been very active in politics since, you know, since a long time ago, but we don't see them on media so often, quite often. Usually, like we see men, you know, all the time, we see men in a lot of mainstream media. But since the coup in 2021, since the start of the revolution, people start to portray more women. So we see them, you know, women like holding guns or holding banners. Like everywhere, you can see women everywhere, from mainstream media, to social media and everything in between. And we see women, you know, women activists, like from the from the protests, or civil rights, civil disobedience movement, or everything like that, like you can see women everywhere. And you will see photos of woman all the time, which in a sense means, you know, there's an increased visibility for women in politics, and especially since the revolution. But the question is, do they actually are getting? How do I say, like the space or the voice that they deserve, or the rights that they deserve? And I think the answer to that is, quite frankly, it's no, because even though there's a lot of women that we see on mainstream media and social media, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're getting a lot of participation, right. So when you look at the energy, or when you look at other arm groups, we don't see a lot of women at the decision making levels, you know, there's like very, very few women at the decision making level. And when you look at the arm revolution, there's not many women who are fighting at the frontline, there is a lot of women participating in the arm revolution, from you know, administration, administration departments, or finance or logistics or other support roles are like maybe even like medical professionals. But that does not necessarily mean that they are taken to the frontline for the combat roles. And even though we see some women like sniper woman, or other woman's at the frontline, the number is very, very few, like the number is very small. So. So still, it's showing that even though there's a lot of women participation, there is still a little bit of you know, like gender stereotypes. And then the woman are not actually getting the rights are the respect or the space or participation that they can provide to the revolution.
Brad 7:50
So let's, let's start then on the civil side of things, right, with governance. So you point to the national unity government, you say they don't have a lot of women. I think it's a very interesting case study in Myanmar, because, of course, very famously, you had on San su chi, who was sort of elevated as this figurehead in in the 1988 revolution. And she very much became a symbol and continued to be a symbol right up until the coup for a lot of people who advocated for progressive for democracy, and that gave the country a very high, shall I say, politically female friendly image, right, this idea of well, you know, here's this powerful, influential woman who has the respect and has the admiration of, of, you know, most of the people in the country and she's leading a major political party. And, and it it sort of shows this image of a powerful woman in a position of power. And even now, when we look at the national unity government, of course, the the the Minister for Foreign Affairs, as well as I believe the Minister for women, youth and children are both are both women. So it's not the case that we can say there was zero women in these positions. But are you saying that the NUJ has sort of underperformed in finding qualified women in order to take enough ministerial positions to really bring women's representation into cabinet?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 9:29
Yeah, so when you look at the energy, you will see women ministers and deputy ministers, but when you actually look at the numbers, the number of woman ministers and deputy ministers is lower than their counterparts. Right? And it seems like the energy pays more attention to ethnic ethnic representation rather than you know, gender represent gender representation. And also when you look at the roles of the deputy ministers and woman, woman deputy minutes Churches and ministers, you can see that they're given roles that are still, you know, typically associated with gender stereotypes, for example, health, education, woman, Youth and Children affairs, you know, things like that. But like things like Ministry of Defense, then again, it is the males. So, so so you can see that right. And also, I think the other thing is, is not about having, you know, one female figure who can be at the top of the country or at the top of an administrator administration. But it's more about like, Okay, how many people how many women on the ground in, you know, day to day life are actually actively participating in the politics or in social spheres, right. So it's not about having one woman figure who's, you know, doing all the things and who's, you know, being like an icon for other women for an inspiration. But also, when you look at our dog's SVG, you can see that she comes from a very privileged background, you know, family background, educational background, everything, right. But there are a lot of women who doesn't have those privileges that she has. And they have a lot of barriers to get to the level that she she has, right. So so yeah, I think it's not about like, participation, per se, but it's about how meaningful the participation is. And also how, how powerful the roles of the roles that the woman are holding, is a decision making level, or is it just, you know, sitting on the table not doing much? Or, you know, do they actually have a voice to voice out there concerns? I think those are the questions that we have to ask ourselves.
Brad 11:54
And so the the question that also comes to lower levels, because when we look at the cabinet of the national unity government, obviously, that's the highest, we'll say civilian lawmaking body that there is, but administration is a very complicated thing, and it stretches all the way down to the local levels of of local government. So I you, I you saying that, not just at the highest level, but sort of throughout the different levels of regional, you know, District State level administration and local level administration? Are you saying that there is still a sort of over representation of men across the pro democracy areas? Or the or the sort of energy controlled areas in the country?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 12:45
Yes, that's correct. Because even like, when we're talking about, like energy, specifically, not the whole revolution, even the on the energy level, like you can see a lot of men during interviews, a lot of ministers and even like the other like a township administration level administrators, they're all highly, very male dominated. But of course, we don't really know the exact numbers because, you know, because of the security concerns, we don't really know the exact numbers, but it is still very highly male dominated.
Brad 13:26
Interesting. And then turning of course, to, to the the more combative aspects of it, the revolution. So you were saying that there are these images coming out of women with weapons and women in in these military roles within the revolution, whether it's PDF, whether it's a yo. So directly in UG controlled and organized or or loosely and ug aligned, but pro democracy. And of course, this contrast, very importantly, I think, with the military who do not have women in combat positions, I'm not sure whether the Dumbledore's an organization has any female members officially, but I know certainly that they don't allow any women in any any combat or combat associated positions. But so you're saying that a lot of what we're seeing is, is what is like is propaganda trying to sort of portray an image of women that is not actually being realized by these organizations by these armed groups, these resistance organizations on the ground that the women are not actually going into into these combat situations.
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 14:41
The woman definitely get the same military training as men. But usually like there's only a very small number of women who are actually sent to the frontline for combat roles. Mostly like they were sent to the frontline for you know, Medic purposes or support roles or any other roles, but not necessarily associated with combat roles. But of course, it doesn't mean that there is none. There, there is a few, there's like a handful of women who are sent to the frontline, like the sniper woman that I just talked about. But it's very few. And also, we also heard cases of women who joined the armed revolution, experience, gender based violence, or sexual violence or sexual harassment, and things like that, that are heard that are often talked about, like, in small groups in closed meetings, or like, you know, in private, but not necessarily, we don't necessarily see that on mainstream media or, you know, even the N ug, we don't see and Yugi talking about it. So in a way is showing that, yes, to some extent, the armed groups are trying to take women into their their groups, and trying to give them roles and you know, trying to make them participate. But even then, that's not enough. Because, you know, we heard reports of sexual assault all the time. So, so yeah, so I think, you know, there's a lot of questions that we should ask ourselves.
Brad 16:22
So, so I just want to clarify that. So what you're saying is that, within these revolutionary groups, whether it's PDF, whether it's EEO, you're saying that the women have gone, they have joined these organizations in order to join the fight against the military, and within the confines of these organizations, where they received their military training, and whether they're volunteering themselves for military operations, they are being sexually harassed or sexually assaulted by their ostensibly by their comrades? Is that what's going on? Yes. Well, and do we, because you're saying this has been discussed in small groups, closed doors, all that sort of stuff? Is, is there any case that you you know, what that you can think of where this has been reported? Obviously, I imagined through through like an EA or PDF or something like that, it would be very difficult. There's no, you know, human resources department that you can, that you can report things to, but any military, or paramilitary organization has a chain of command. So in theory, the women should have the right to report this to a superior, do you know of any cases where these incidents have been reported to someone who should intervene and take action? And do you know, whether action was taken?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 17:39
So I think there are two things, there is a difference between a more established er owes, and then less established newly formed PDFs or other other groups. In terms of more established er O's, they have a proper chain of command, and they have, you know, reporting mechanisms and things like that. But the problem with them with a lot of them is how do I put this but like, they have a high tolerance for, you know, what sexual harassment is and whatnot. So usually, like, I have heard a case, you know, this is just an example, I have heard a case of a woman like, you know, being sexually sexually harassed in the camps, and then she took it to the superiors, and the, you know, superiors were like, oh, you know, they're just teasing you, you know, this is okay, like, they're just, you know, they just love you. They're just brothers, you know, they're just ankles. So things like that it's quite normalized. So she can take you anywhere. And it's been like so many times that at one point, she was like, Maybe I should get a boyfriend, or maybe I should get a husband, because it's gonna keep coming up. As long as I'm in the camp, I'm staying in the camp is gonna keep coming up. So maybe I should just have a man so that, you know, I will feel more safe or less harassed. So yeah, so usually, I think that's the case with more established er O's is not that they don't have reporting mechanism. It's just that the way of thinking that they have when it comes to sexual harassment and gender based violence is more in a way traditional, and normalized. So it's hard for the girls or the woman, the females to talk about it. So that's one thing. And then the other thing with the newly formed PDFs and other armed groups, is that the perpetrators usually because they're involved in the revolution, they feel that oh, I'm involved in the revolution, you know? So so they know that, that even if someone talks about it, it will not come To them, it will not come back to them, they will not be punished. So, so they feel like they can do it. Right. And, and of course, usually the public or the community protects them because, oh, they're participating in the revolution, you know, so they're taking covered that they're, they're, they're taking cover because of their participation in the revolution. So yeah, so I think that those two dynamics are, you know, quite different.
Brad 20:26
But it's very strange that you say that, because, of course, what comes up is that sure the perpetrators are participating in the revolution. And so the community protects them. But their victims, those women are also contributing to the revolution. And the implication, then, is that the community will not protect them. So it doesn't, it cannot be a question of we, as a community will protect those who are working for the revolution. This is one person working for the revolution, who was victimized and other person working for the revolution. So the decision of the community to take one side or the other side, by definition is not based on wanting to protect someone who is a revolutionary, the decision must have been made based on on some other factor. And and I mean, it seems that the the logical conclusion to come to is it must be some sort of entrenched misogyny or just a lack of a willingness to address the imperfections of the revolution and have to come to terms with the fact that, yeah, some some revolutionaries are not good people or are not acting correctly. And having to recognize this this truth is very unpleasant and very difficult. And it's better to sort of ignore it. But both both of the people in these cases are working for the revolution. So if if the community says we're going to protect the perpetrator, the community has simultaneously said, we are not going to protect this other revolutionary, who is the victim of this, of this violence? Like, I'm just wondering whether this this line of reasoning is, is is clear to these communities.
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 22:13
Yeah, totally, because I will give an example. Right, a very recent case. So there's this guy who is married to this woman. And she comes from Singapore. So she, she came from Singapore to meet to meet him and Mossad. And they had a fight, they were in a hotel, and he killed him, he killed her by just, you know, hitting her with his fist, like repeatedly that she died. And now there's no one to reclaim. reclaim her body. And it's just like that. But a lot of people don't want to talk about it, because he's also part of the revolution. And he's, he's actually a soldier. And yeah, a lot of people even though they know the case, they didn't talk about it, because, you know, they don't want to put a bad image to the revolution. So it's been like, talking about it in public or in private, but not in public. But recently, a journalist spoke about it. And then, you know, it gained a lot of public attention. And then now it is taken to the Ministry of Human Rights, and also Ministry of women, youth and child affairs. So we'll see what will happen, but but to be really, really honest, it is clear that there is not much that the NUJ can do right now. Except maybe issuing arrest warrant, but nothing more than that. So. So yeah, so I think it's not just about like the community, protecting the people, sorry, protecting the perpetrators, but also, how will we punish them, especially during this time? You know, and like you said, there's also a culture of victim blaming, and then normalization, and then a lot of patriarchy internalized misogyny, so it's all very messed up, honestly.
Brad 24:16
I agree with that. But it's the problem that arises from this. And it is a very serious problem that extends beyond these individual cases. This is something that governments grapple with whether whether we're talking about, you know, a small militia group all the way up to whether we're talking about the government of the United States. If you have people who are committing crimes, and you know about this, and you fail to take action, then it's going to look bad for you. And it's it's perpetually every case, where you have these these massive crimes being committed, whether it's by the military, whether it's by police, whether it's by I, you know, the the very security services of espionage, whatever. Governments always tend to want to cover these things up and say, well, we don't want to hurt the image of the state, we don't want to hurt the image of the organization, we don't want to, you know, deal with the negative effects of the PR. But the problem is that the fact that you know that these crimes are happening, and you're not at least trying, yeah, and I take your point, the national unity government is not in any position to punish people. The national unity government doesn't have any prisons can't build any prisons, even running court cases is very difficult thing to do. But if they don't acknowledge that these crimes are happening, then they're complicit in them. And the negative effect of that will make it such that international communities will not be able or willing to support the National Unity government will not be able or willing to support the revolution, because we'll basically be looking at a situation where the the NUJ knows about these crimes being committed by their people, and is not taking any steps to to rectify that does. Is this message getting through to people? Do you think? Or is this something no one's thinking about?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 26:14
I think now, there are some people who are talking about it. But like you said, you know, people usually think, oh, we have to talk about how the military member military is committing those crimes. But they don't want to talk about when it comes to the revolution site. So I think it's very problematic. But also the thing about this particular case, it happened to mess up. So it's in, you know, Thai territory. So So I think, well, this specific case, all he can do is to talk to the Thai officials and work with them. But again, like I said, it's very political, and also very, very problematic. And also, the other thing, when we're talking about this is, there's a lot of women who are at the border, especially Mossad, or, you know, at the border, who are facing sexual gender based violence, but they can't take it to the police to the Thai police, because they first of all, they're undocumented. And second of all, the perpetrators usually are part of the revolution. So so not only they have to face, you know, challenges from the Thai side, but also, they are also scared that you know, the Burmese community. There are a lot of women at the border tinium or border who are facing sexual and gender based violence, and sometimes they need like shelters immediately, you know, and there are Burmese organizations, and also Thai organizations at the border. But the difficulty is, Thai organizations are usually hesitant to accept undocumented Burmese women to their shelters, because, you know, their legal requirements and things like that. But also with the new the the restrictions of challenges, let's say challenges, challenges of Burmese organizations, they can't usually, like accept people easily, and they can't operate very freely at the border. So yeah, so so there is also a high need for temporary shelters for women who are facing sexual and gender based violence, especially like responses that will immediately help them to get the services or whether it's legal or you know, shelter or psychological, even the services that they need. It is really difficult right now. So like I said, it's not just, you know, the revolution and the sexual identities violence is also about like politics and border border officials. And yeah, so it's, it's, it's tiring, honestly, exhausting to think about it to even think about it.
Brad 29:07
As it's terrifying. I mean, the conditions of the Myanmar migrant workers living in Thailand are horrific. We recently did an interview about that as well. And it was genuinely harrowing to hear about the abuses that they're subjected to by Thai authorities, their local police, extorting them for money and abusing them in all sorts of ways. It's that that notwithstanding, I do feel that the picture you're painting for me, is a picture in which it's not just that okay, the Thai authorities abused the Burmese migrant workers because there's a long history of doing that and because they can get away with it. It's not just of you know, the the Conservatives and the military and the military cronies. is entrenched within misogyny, it's, you're basically saying there's this undercurrent in society that we have to protect anyone who's working for the revolution, we have to protect the image of the revolution. And we are willing to sacrifice our women to, to this, it's, it's, if that's the mentality, then what I want to reconcile that with is what we saw from 2021 onwards, because what was especially in 2021, what we saw, at least on social media was rapid, and it was powerful. We saw, you know, women taking to the protests with with the timing kind of that, and, and, you know, some women were using, you know, menstrual products and things like this, to build barricades, all of which ties in, of course, to the traditional Burmese concept of porn. But although that was very effective against the military, and the police, we also saw on social media, a wave of young men, defying these traditions, wearing, you know, tomatin on their heads in an act of defiance, and saying, No, we don't care about these superstitions, that they're backwards, and they're sexist. And that's not who we are. And that's not something that we need. And we saw, you know, women standing shoulder to shoulder with men in the protests, we saw, you know, the LGBT community coming out and joining the protests, and we saw a lot of people, softening their opinions towards women, softening their opinions towards the LGBT, offering their opinions towards ethnic minorities, as a result of this protest movement that really seemed to unite the country into two major groups, those who want democracy and freedom and progress. And those who want to go back to the military controlled crony capitalism of the past. And it seems, then that there was a very rapid, very sudden leap, in terms of how society particularly young society, views the role of women and views, the abilities of women, there seem to be a great leap forward for feminism in in Myanmar society in 2021. And continuing on, as the revolution has continued. And now, what you're saying is that, at the end of the day, it hasn't progressed far enough for society to say that calling out gender based violence, calling out sexual harassment and sexual assault is more important than protecting the image and the reputation of men who are working for, for the revolution. So what happened? Where is the disconnect, where's the failure of this societal progress, to recognize that a line in the sand has to be drawn? And gender based violence is on the other side of that line?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 33:10
I think I think in the beginning of the revolution, people had hopes and dreams. And they sort of feel themselves as like, Oh, we're really different from the military, because the military is very patriarchal. So they sort of portray themselves themselves. As you know, we're different from the military, we accept LGBTQ, we accept women, we accept, you know, ethnic people, things like that. But, but it's, it's not enough. It's not enough. And it's just that they it's not that they don't accept that it's not that their perspective hasn't changed. I mean, it has changed to some level, we can see it from the tomato revolution and other types of, you know, societal changes. But usually it happens on the surface level, and it's not very, how do I say it's not very sustaining. So so like I said, that's why it's still very deeply patriarchal and victim blaming. And, you know, it's like that. And the other thing is, even though the women are participating, and even though we've been talking about women, women's rights, there are still a lot of people who says, We will win this revolution first, and then we can talk about women's rights later. And that's very problematic because women constitute more than half of Myanmar's Myanmar's population. And if we are not talking about those half of the populations rights, then you know, it means that you are ignoring the whole more than 50% of the population. But we hear that narrative all the time people saying Oh, women's rights, I mean, they're important but We will talk about it later, you know, revolution first other things later. And it's the same with not just women's rights, but also LGBT rights or other issues, where they say, Okay, let's win this revolution. First, let's defeat the common enemy first. And then we can talk about this later. And the the way that it's portray is also, again, very problematic, because it means that you are ignoring a lot of people. But also it means that after the revolution, post revolution scenarios, there's a lot of things that we have to uncover, we have to solve. So yeah, so again, even though the people's perspective has been changed to some level, it's only on the surface level, but not very sustaining.
Brad 35:47
It's kind of strange how you say it's when the revolution first and then we can talk about women's liberation, ethnic minorities, LGBT and so on. Whereas I think it would be fair to look at the situation and say, No, that the liberation of the historically oppressed groups is the Revolution like that. That is what winning the revolution is like unseating the military is one part of that it's a very important, very essential part of that. And certainly, the most difficult part of that, because they're fighting back with with lethal force. But if you if you unseat the military, but everything societally stays the same, and you have, as you say, more than half of the population are oppressed, because they're women, and then you have some, you know, 1/3 of the population being oppressed, because they're ethnic minorities. And then you have some significant percentage of the population being oppressed, because they're LGBTQ. You know, you wind up with a situation where you got rid of, of the problem, but you didn't actually get rid of the problem, you just you just got rid of one element of it. And you're stuck in the same loop. And you haven't actually made progress. So is there is there no sense among the people that the societal changes these improvements, these, the hashtag to put this, the fight within ourselves, within our own minds, is just as much a part of the revolution, as the physical fighting on the ground against the soldiers of the Commodore? Is there no connection that it has to be one and the same thing? There's no point getting rid of the military, if we're not simultaneously fixing the mindset that they that they put into the people over the decades and decades and decades of indoctrination that the military subjected Myanmar to?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 37:46
Yeah, that's why we've been, you know, activist, a lot of activists have been talking about ideological revolution as well, when we're also doing the arm revolution. And when you actually think about it, I don't know if you heard about like the military, back telegram channels who are targeting against women. But physical, physical sexual assault is not the only issue, right? There are also digital assaults and digital issues targeted against women. And these are done by military back telegram channels, right. But the reason that they've been fueled, is because the society is deeply patriarchal. So they are using, you know, patriarchy, and nationalism, as their core values or key themes. So that, you know, when they expose politically active women to their telegram channels, and say, like, oh, you know, they're impure, or they're promiscuous, then the community feeds into it. Again, right, you can see that the problem, it's not only the military, back telegram channels, exposing women or targeting against women, but also the community who are feeding into it. That's why like, instead of protecting these women as like, oh, you know, we don't have to care about this, or, you know, they're just trying to target you, blah, blah, blah. Instead of protecting them. The community is still feeding into it, and like, Oh, these people are, you know, these women, you know, who are they dating, you know, so, so yeah, so I think the society itself is very patriarchal and problematic, and also still holding on to a lot of stereotypical gender norms even now, right? Even though the young, younger generation has changed a lot, I think, middle aged people and elderly people they're still holding on to very typical gender norms.
Brad 39:43
So I just want to make a point there because you mentioned the telegram channels. And this might be something that some of our listeners are not particularly familiar with. You know, Telegram obviously is a is a messaging app on phones but the the situation me Memories. There has always been many different chat platforms that are used increasingly, you know, signal rose in popularity after the revolution because it has a relatively high level of privacy and security built into it. It's open source. You know, WhatsApp has been popular Viber has been popular. Telegram has a couple of features that has made it very popular. A lot of pro-military channels are on telegram. One of the reasons that telegram got popular is because telegrams policies themselves, do not allow any data to be handed over to authorities. Telegram refuses point blank to code to collaborate. Telegram has an absolutely no censorship policy, as far as I know. And while this is very good for privacy and security, unfortunately, the corollary to that is that a lot of criminal groups on telegram able to very openly and publicly share criminal activities, you know, leaked information or even your pictures and video of of crimes, there are telegram channels where you can, you know, watch torture and you know, in raping murder that the that the military are committing, and they're sharing with one another, these these channels exist, they're quite brutal, they're quite shocking. They're quite violent and telegram by policy, does not censor them does not shut them down and does not divulge any information about them. So telegram has really allowed this to, to flourish. And I think we should be fair as well, because it's not just the the military side that the pro democracy side has also had quite a few instances since the coup of targeting women who are perceived as being pro military, or who are working for the military government, and going after them, going after their families, leaking sort of naked images of them and things like this, it does seem that both sides have engaged in this type of attack on on women, while men on both sides have themselves not really been targeted in this sexual based way.
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 42:23
Yeah, that's what makes it even very depressing. Because even though we talk about the military back telegram channels, not a lot of people are talking about how the revolution side has also, you know, done the same thing, even though it's still a few cases, but it needs to be told it needs to be highlighted and like, you know, solve.
Brad 42:52
Absolutely. And so, the question is what, what is happening, because I believe you yourself, have been sort of harassed as a result of the fact that you are, you know, an activist and you're trying to not just, you know, advance, obviously, the the rights of women and Myanmar, but that must go hand in hand, of course, with calling out those individuals and those groups and those societal norms, which are holding women back. And of course, a lot of people get very upset, they get very angry, and they feel that they are being targeted, which depending on the situation, they may be being targeted, deservedly so, and they lash out. So I don't want to sort of pry too deeply into into what I'm sure must be a very difficult thing that you've had to deal with, and the many other people in your situation have had to deal with. But I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about your own experiences with with this type of campaign.
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 43:53
So for me, it's from both sides. On the other side, you know, on one side, there's the military pro military accounts like attacking me because I'm talking about revolution and women's rights and things like that. But on the other side, there is this individuals, maybe groups who are commenting on my posts, or like finding my photos and making memes and spreading hate speech and rumors, talking about my dating history or my family background, education, anything that they can think of, and just, you know, trying to defame me. But usually, one thing that I noticed is that, even when I'm talking about the same thing, as my male counterparts, when it was when the opinion is discussed by females, people like me, the comments that they give on my Facebook profile, or my other social media platforms are really different because if a man is talking about those issues, they A argue based on, you know, the content of the thing that the man is talking about. But if it's me or any other female activist, then they talk about, you know, my private matters, or my personality or my dating history or, you know, my preferences in men or things like that. So. So it's very sad that, you know, even though you have different opinions, people don't want to talk about it, people just want to harass you, for whatever you say. And that is not only the telegram channels, but also such form of sexual harassment, digital digital harassment, it's a threat to my right to freedom of speech. And it is, you know, sadly, the tactics used by the military. And even though the military was the one who's using that the people are also now using those same things. But of course, from the military side, usually, it's systematic. So I had an experience when I was hosting a panel for sisters, sisters, and then there's this account came into my Zoom channel, my Zoom Room, and then it started flooding the channel, sorry, the room with, you know, exclusive pictures and videos, and I can't do anything. But But later that what I realized is it's not just one person trying to, you know, do this, it's just a whole group of individuals, targeting against female activist. So it's by the military, but I think on the other side, the revolution side, it's more, it's more that they don't like me is more that they want to attack me. But again, both sides, do those things. Because Because of patriarchy, and you know, because they want to harass women, and because they know that they can get away with it.
Brad 47:07
Because that, that, that then becomes the next question. But the motivation behind these people, because there's a, there's a big difference between being a sort of misogynist troll who, for whatever reason, we don't need to speculate, but for whatever reason, just doesn't like women, and particularly does not like women who are speaking out and demanding that society do better. And something about this rankles them and so they want to go out and they want to upset those people, versus someone who has a much more targeted motivation, much more political motivation, who is actually of the opinion like no, these types of of groups, these women getting together talking about ideological revolution, talking about feminism, talking about societal progress, calling out men for their bad behavior, this has to be stopped, it has to be shut down on a much more serious, much more organized level. Because it's, it's, you know, whether they believe it's bad for society, or whether they believe it's, you know, in the interest of the military dictatorship, or whatever the case may be, there is a significant difference between people who are genuinely opposed to your message, and are genuinely trying to stop society from progressing, versus people who are just for whatever reason, unhappy unsatisfied, just, you know, pissed off because they see you saying some stuff that they don't like, and they decide to take time out of their day, to try and make your life hard or try to make, you know, activists lives hard in general. So where along that spectrum, do you sort of see the opposition? Is it just individual men? Because you're saying it seems to be both like on the pro democracy, it seems to just be individual men. And on the military side, it seems to be much more organized and much more pointed and much more politically motivated. So what's what's really the major factor here, in your experience, in your opinion?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 49:09
Ah, I think in my experience, the military, like the intentional targeting of women, it's more pronounced, because there was this case, when, you know, we were hosting panels about mantle's men only panels. And I did that like last year, or like something like that. I did. I did those panels talking about metals a long time ago, but, but when Women's League of Burma was talking about metals, they immediately link that mantle things to me, and they started sending a woman sick of Burma like with my name and like, oh, this person, baba, baba Tada. So, so you can see that they've been watching me and other female activist and seeing that okay, they are doing these things, you know, like, so So, so We can see that there are actually watching female activist and maybe other activists as well. But like they are actually intentionally watching these activists and spending quite a lot of time to see like what we're doing and how they can, you know, target us and how they can spread sexualized disinformation campaigns. So, so yeah, so I think the military's military side, it's more pronounced with those type of campaigns and those type of intentions.
Brad 50:28
Yeah, I just want to clarify, when you say that they're watching you like I do you mean that they're watching you as in, they're following all of the content that you're putting up all the different speeches that you gave all the panels that you go on building a profile of your activism? Or are you saying that they're watching your non activist activities, your family relations, your romantic relationships, where you go, what you do, who you associate with? What are they watching?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 50:56
I mean, honestly, I don't know exactly. But I what I can say is they are actually watching female activist like how they've been doing. And that's why sometimes, even though I posted a photo, like a long time ago, I see I see my photo, and then my name in other places, even though I've deleted the photo or, you know, even though I've changed my privacy settings, so we don't really know who's doing what, for sure, because, you know, it's hard to track. But but we are searching that there's a group of people probably trained by the military or probably, you know, linked to the military who are watching those panels, and watching those activists.
Brad 51:40
Okay. Interesting. So that's, I mean, that's relatively concerning. Because then it's, it's, I mean, as I say, it's one thing to watch the panels, and one thing to build up a profile on an activist and say, Well, this is what the activist has been saying, in public. This is what the activist has been posting about online, you know, making sure that the content that you're collecting is relevant to that person's activism. You know, it would make sense if you, if you oppose someone to say, well, I want to know what this person has been saying, I want to know, what this person's, you know, major sort of quotes are so that I can bring that up in a debate. But it's a completely different thing. When, as you say, you're talking about photographs that you've posted, that even if you've deleted them, that someone has clearly gone online, someone has copied, you know, saved out of your out of your control, and is continuing to post and continuing to circulate. That's, that becomes a whole other level of, of I would say it's definitely bordering on on harassment. If nothing else, is definitely concerning. Do you do you feel afraid as a result of these things? Like do you? Do you feel that your your personal safety and security is at risk?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 53:00
Yeah, I definitely feel it. Because when I was living alone, I usually sort of, I think it's just like, it's not the someone is actually like, doing things to me in, in, in real life. But the digital harassment and the threads that I face, they actually interfere with my daily life. And also, it is actually a threat to my freedom of speech. Because now like, before I post anything, you know, I always think like, Okay, what, what will I post because years later, or even days later, like, it can come up, you know, people can come up, people can come up and like, you know, use it against me. And so I'm very careful with what I post and how I say things. And like, especially, I'm very protective of, you know, my family and my personal relationships and the way I dress the way I speak. It's hard, honestly, it's hard because, you know, I don't want I just want to be a normal Facebook user. I don't want to be someone who's being watched, you know?
Brad 54:05
Yeah, absolutely. But, I mean, this is the sad reality of the world in which in which we currently live that yeah, it's it's very easy for people to start stalking online, it's very easy for people to start building up a profile of what you do, who you associate with what your relationships are. And, yeah, if you're someone that has enemies, and it seems that you definitely do, unfortunately, it's very easy to target you. It's very easy to make you feel afraid and not, not quite. The activists feel but I do know, for example, through Instagram influences, particularly very wealthy influences, because they post so much content on Instagram. A very large number of them have been the victims of of robberies because criminals are simply able to ascertain their locations, they know where they're going to be they know when they're going there, how many people will be going and, you know, they know ahead of time, oh, this person is going to be wearing an expensive piece of jewelry. I can, I can ambush them in this location, I can steal it from them. And it's very, very, very easy to get this information from social media. And so if people have a vested interest in finding you, unfortunately, they can't. Yeah, it's scary. It's really scary.
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 55:29
It's scary, but also in Myanmar, because the country has just opened up, right. Like before the coup, that country was recently opened up. So we're not used to like digital security and what we post online and things like that. So it comes from like, zero to 10. So once we don't have anything, like, we don't have Facebook, we don't have anything. And suddenly everyone has phones, everyone has Facebook. And it's like, we don't have time to adapt. Right. So it comes from like people, you know, respecting each other, you know, talking good about each other, to commenting, and on people's posts, and harassing them. So so it's such a, it's such a very black and white thing. And, I mean, we're talking about Facebook, but the reason that I like clubhouse is because you can hear people's voices. And you can know that they're a real person, you tend to restrain yourself from you know, talking bad about those people, because you can hear them, you can know that they're human, right. But like on Facebook, especially because you only see the photos, you only see the content, you don't really hear them, you don't really talk to them, you know, life action, right. So I think it's easier for people to just like, say nasty things on my posts or other people's posts, because it's easier, right. But again, like you said, if you're an activist, or a social media influencer, or someone who's you know, quite public, then I think you have to be really careful, because that's what my case because I don't post things, you know, before I go somewhere, I won't post because I don't want people to know where I'm going. So I would only post like one month later, or like maybe like a week later, because I'm very concerned about my security. And also, the sad thing for me is that is not that these people talk about, like my political opinions or my participation in the revolution, it's just that they attack me using like my family background and my own personal information, private information.
Brad 57:23
And that said, He's and I think, an essential piece of context here that some of the audience may not be aware of, in the Myanmar context, before the coup, you could get a gigabyte of data for about 1000 jet dependent depending on what phone provider you are with, depending on the data plan, but you could very often just get, you know, a gigabyte for about 1000, maybe a little bit more than that. And that's quite affordable, if you are living on a foreign salary. But for people who are living there, when 1000 job could buy you a relatively good meal. And you might only be on if you're a minimum wage, you might only be earning, you know, 3000 4000 a day. The phone data is quite expensive, especially if you have to run everything off of your phone, because you don't have a Wi Fi modem in your houses, as was the case for a large number of people. And so, because Myanmar didn't have net neutrality, and not all internet traffic has to be treated the same. Facebook went behind the scenes, and they made a lot of deals with a lot of the phone providers to basically say that when you buy a data plan, when you buy a package, when you do whatever, you get a certain amount of data for Facebook and Facebook only, in addition to the data that you would normally be provided. So if you're on Facebook, you're not burning through, you're relatively limited into their data. And the effect of that was to drive so much traffic to Facebook, that obviously brings in ad revenue for them. But it basically make Facebook the be all and end all like before I went to Myanmar, I never imagined that I would send a resume through Facebook to get a job. I never imagined that it would be interviewed through Facebook Messenger. But every single thing in Myanmar was just done on on Facebook when when I moved there in 2016. It was already entirely Facebook based. It's phenomenal how dependent the country was on Facebook, if it became more like Google for a lot of people. I think instead of Googling something, you just went to Facebook to try and find out the answers because the data was were cheap. Oh, we're free as the case may be. And so that made it absolutely unavoidable. Like here in the West. A lot of people say you know what, I'm quitting Facebook, I'm quitting social media. I'm not going to use it. It's better for mental health. But I couldn't imagine in the Myanmar context, standing up and saying I'm going to stop using Facebook. Like, oh, how would you get employed?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 59:58
Yeah, that's true. That's your. So that's why I have a Facebook profile. But you know, in some ways, like you said, I've always kind of felt like maybe I don't want to be on social media, maybe maybe at least Facebook, right? I want to be on Facebook. But then like, how are you going to connect to people, like, basically you can't live away from Facebook, because then you won't have friends. And like, with the digital, what's it called, like the digital development, a lot of people, a lot of young people, they are creating slangs, and new words, like every single day on Facebook. And if you're not on Facebook, you won't understand any of these. And especially if you are like an activist like me, you have to have a Facebook profile, because that's how you connect to people you have to post and then there will be a lot of campaigns on social media, and you have to engage with them. So everything happens on Facebook, and like, funny thing is, in this revolution, some people even say that, Oh, if you don't have a Facebook profile, are you even working? Like? What is you know? Like, why, like, do I have to prove myself to you, you know, like, do I have to post on Facebook to show that I'm working, you know, it's crazy, it's crazy.
Brad 1:01:09
It's absolutely insane. Because, like the power of a Burmese Facebook Messenger chat, it's, you can't you can't get away from it. Like, if you're in a workplace, they will be a messenger chat for that. You know, I was teaching my my school students would come and one of the first things they would do is they would make a messenger chat. And that's how they would know, you know, if someone missed class or was going to be late, or like, I wouldn't find out about it, but one of the students will say, Oh, you know, he's gonna be 15 minutes late. It's in the group chat. Like, that was the first thing that you did, at least at least what I observed from, from the students I had. And this included adult students as well. So it's just so ubiquitous, it's, it's that basic, because of course, if you send an SMS, that costs money, and you're typically only sending it to one person, it's not as easy as just having a chat. And then you have, you know, people sending voicemails, I never send voice messages before I went to Myanmar. I never did what now I send our long voice messages, I fully converted to that way of life. But it never existed before. It's it's Yeah, you can't exist without it, I think.
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:02:22
Yeah, that's your. And also, I think, the other thing is, when you're talking about like the revolution, and you know, having a personal life, the profile that we have on Facebook, it's very mixed, right, on some ways you have the personal life that you want to show to your friends and family. But on the other side, you also have to have some sort of like, a professional life, where you're showing people that, you know, I this is my job, this is what I do. These are, you know, my professional criteria, things like that. So, so I think being an activist, that's the challenge is there, because you want to be sometimes you just want to be a normal Facebook user posting about your dog, or your friends or your family. But on the other side, you also have to be this person who talks about, you know, politics and revolution and women's rights and things like that. So, so for me, it's it's usually like, I'm very confused, like, what do I do? You know, because I want to keep my personal life very private. But on the other side, I have to be public because of my work. So sometimes I'm like, do I stay low profile? Do I stay high profile? Because I'm, you know, I'm very, very confused.
Brad 1:03:36
Yeah, I would make two accounts. To be completely honest, I would just have two Facebook accounts and or one Facebook account, one Instagram account, something like that? Because, yeah, it's I think it's an impossible situation. It's, it's very much here, like you have politicians in the West, but they'll have an official Twitter account and official Facebook account and official, whatever. But we all know, they don't touch that account. They've never seen that account. They don't even know what that, you know, that website is they have an assistant or a team of people who are running that page for them. And it's only for official activities, and then they might have another account, a personal account. And that one has, you know, super high security settings on it and privacy settings and, and members of the public are not supposed to see it, and that's how they they connect to their families. But, you know, that requires balancing two different accounts. And Facebook tries to make that as difficult as possible. So I think it's a very difficult situation that that you find yourself in and that your colleagues find themselves in because yeah, there's no easy way around that. Unfortunately. But yeah, let's, let's jump forward. And another interesting topic when we were discussing for this, the wives, the wives of soldiers, that's a fascinating, largely unsung element of women within the revolution. Getting soldiers to defect has been a major Your objective for the revolutionary forces. And if the statistics that I've been given are accurate, twice as many soldiers have defected as have actually died, it seems to be a much more effective tactic to weaken the military just by convincing people to defect or at the very least convincing them to desert and run back to their home villages and wherever else they can hide out. But I believe you were saying that one of the most effective ways of getting a soldier to desert or to defect is actually to try and find that soldier's wife and start getting her to try and convince that soldier to, to make moves. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:05:42
Yeah. So I used to do, I used to host a lot of panels with spouses of people soldiers, in Burmese is be this task anemia, which literally translated into wives of people, soldiers, but we say spouses. So, so the military, as we all know, is very patriarchal. And they've been silencing women, and they've been putting women as like second class citizens or, you know, slaves or something like that. In the military, right. So the men, the soldiers would be getting high level positions. And the woman in some ways has to do some things that the military wants them to do. So they've been in this position for a very long time, right? Where they feel oppressed, they feel like they their capabilities have been ignored, not acknowledge and appreciate it, things like that. So when we found these women, these women have a lot of potential, they are very influential, they have a huge influence on their on their husbands who are serving in the military. So actually, these these groups, this group, in particular was founded by a woman called Masuda. So she's, she's actually my senior from the university, she is a pharmacist. So yeah, so she founded this group with other other women, other wives of soldiers. And they basically convinced their husbands to defend the military. And then they started coming up with this idea of like, actually, even though these women are portrayed as second class citizens in the military, they are actually very powerful, they have a huge influence on their husbands. So they started talking to this wives, to convince their husbands to defect the military. And it's been very powerful, but because now there are a lot of soldiers who have defect the military, and they started their own channels, they started convincing other soldiers to defect the military, they expose their experiences, being in the military, or being in the military, linked family situations, or, you know, events and things like that. And they talk about how the military has been violating the rights of those soldiers and their families, when they are serving in the military. So it's a very powerful channel, I'm very happy that I, you know, get to work with them. And I'm very, even though I have left the organization, you know, I left on good, good terms. And we're still very much I'm still very much involved, and I'm really honored to be working with them.
Brad 1:08:12
I mean, that's incredible, because I think, you know, we've spoken quite a bit today about the treatment of women, even among the pro democracy side. And any, it's kind of depressing, it's kind of depressing to talk about that women are not getting the respect that they deserve. Women are not even getting the basic physical protections that they deserve. And, and women are being held back from making the types of contributions that they want to be making, that they can be making, for the revolution because of these stereotypes. And it's, it's a sad reality to talk about. But when we do look across the aisle, we look at the military. And, I mean, you've described the military itself as as patriarchal, I don't think that that's sufficient to describe the stories that that you hear of the ways in which women are seen, the ways in which women are utilized within the military. You know, whether by by fathers by brothers by husbands, they very much do seem to be treated like borderline slaves, in a lot of cases, just sent to, you know, a superior officers house, to do you know, housekeeping work for for that superior officer's wife or being seen as a way to gain a promotion if you marry a woman who's who's related to a more powerful man. It's it's not just patriarchal, I think it really verges on on the commodification of women as a as an organization. And so I think there is a something of a delicious irony in that The women within that system being instrumental in turning around and getting their husbands to say like, Hey, let's let's not be part of this, let's let's get out of here and find find a better life elsewhere. It's, I think it's the military's hubris of not respecting the women and not seeing the potential of those women coming back to bite them. Because those capable.
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:10:28
Yeah, exactly. Like you said, you know, those women, the wives of soldiers, then you tell us about their stories all the time, like have, you know, they had to, when they go to a superiors house, they had to leave from the back door, they can't leave from the front door, because they're the woman. And sometimes you have to wash, the endo wears off the wife of the superior. And that's, you know, really crazy and very, very oppressive. And also, not just that, but also like their husbands as well, you know, being very oppressed and harassed, not harassed, but like being very oppressed in the military. And sometimes, you know, the wife's even though, how do I see like, the, they have, like a group of wives, right, like talking to each other, you know, doing things together, and they have to call the superior wife, Mama, even when she is younger than you because you know, the level is higher. So you have to call Mama, and all these, you know, stories of, you know, how they've been treated in the military. And I think for them, it's such an eye opening experience, to be in the revolution, to be engaging and working with, you know, activist and people who are involved in the revolution and other other like minded people, because their potential has been ignored and appreciated for a very long time, like when their husbands are serving in the military. But when they get to the revolution sites, everyone warmly welcomed them. Everyone appreciates their intention to join the revolution, and their participation and their influence. So their their capabilities have been, you know, their potential have been appreciated. And they feel more empowered to be working with those, those type of like minded people, because, you know, now they have a chance to fight out the stories that they didn't get a chance to talk about, like when they're in the military. Now, the first time in their life, they can talk about it publicly. And they feel really empowered to have an audience that wants to listen to them. And that's, you know, really appreciate what they have done for the revolution.
Brad 1:12:38
Absolutely. And I think another thing that we want to talk about here is, I believe you, you were affiliated with the frontline ethics podcast, can you tell us a little bit about that?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:12:53
Yes, so actually, I started the pockets channel called frontline ethics. So it is to talk about like, what ethics? Do we follow what ethics and principles do we follow and uphold at the frontline? So for example, how do we differentiate between, you know, civilians and combatants? And how do we treat a combatant? If they if you're the revolution site, arrest them, if they detain them? And then how do we get them a chance, you know, to maybe join the revolution? Or, you know, how do we deal with those things? So basically, like that, but the main main thing is called not a target. So it's about saying, the armed groups that civilians are not a target humanitarians are not a target, medical professionals are not a target. Volunteers are not a target, you know, and other, you know, civilian properties and other things that are not military targets. So basically, to protect civilians and civilian properties from being targeted.
Brad 1:13:57
Excellent. And so talking about the civilian targets, I know, I know, this is going to be veering off the topic of feminism and women's role in a strict sense. But veering into that. How does this How does it how does this touch on the Rohingya crisis that I know that you've been quite engaged with as well? What what is the, the sort of focus there?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:14:25
I think the focus is because I have worked with worked in Rakhine state during the Rohingya crisis. I've experienced a lot of things by myself and like with my own eyes, I've seen a lot of things. So even before the coup in 2021, I've experienced what war is like, you know, and how civilians have been suffering because of the armor of sorry, because of armed conflict. So so the reason that I came up with this podcast is because the warrior will be so along the armed conflict, the revolution on revolution is going to take a long time to, to win. But in the meantime, we have to protect civilians and civilian properties so that they will not suffer. So that we can minimize the side effects of or collateral damage of the arm revolution so that people can tolerate more even more, because the warranty chain has been ongoing for a very long time. And when it started, people have hopes, right? People are like, oh, yeah, of course, we're gonna fight them, we're gonna win this. But after many, many years, people burn out and people started feeling like, Okay, we just want to live, we just want to survive. We don't want war anymore. But with this revolution, we don't want that because we want to win this revolution, we really want to win this revolution, we really want our next generation to get a free the freedom that we didn't get to get democracy that we didn't get so. So if we want that we have to be able to tolerate war, or we have to be able to protect civilians, and fight war justly so that people have more, so that people will support the armed revolution, people will support that this resolution can bring an end to the military. So yeah, with that intention, I started that. And also we have an element of conflict related sexual violence as well. So we will also be talking about how women have been, you know, facing sexual and gender based violence from the military or other armed groups that are related to the conflict. And you know, how, how can we help them or like, how will we seek justice, things like that?
Brad 1:16:43
And I think just our last one, I do want to follow up on that, because that is something that is is horrifyingly frequent, like to the point where we can definitely say that there is a there's a pattern. So when I speak to people with a background in international law, one of the questions that comes up when we're talking about the difference between a crime and a crime against humanity, or a crime and war crime, comes down to this question of, has there been a demonstrated pattern? Is this an ongoing? I wouldn't call it mean but but an ongoing phenomenon. That is that is deliberate. And when it comes to sexual violence perpetrated by the military, against civilian women, that definitely seems to fall into the category of something that E is ease, not necessarily organized, but it is it is an ongoing campaign. It is something that the military leadership know about, it is something that the military leadership, have no intention of taking any action to prevent. And it seems to be very much part of their playbook to try to terrorize the population in the same way that they terrorize the population with airstrikes. They terrorize the population by cutting off food supply, they terrorize the population by cutting off medical access. They also terrorize the population through sexual violence. This seems to be a very, very common and very widespread practice, particularly it seems, among the light infantry divisions. And the question of justice in that, I want to ask you whether you think there is any light at the end of the tunnel, because I, I do remember a case that I had to work on personally, which is a relatively brutal gang raping incident that occurred in Chin State. And the unfortunate conclusion that we came to is that we don't think that there is a likelihood that these victims, and there were quite a few victims, that these victims are going to be able to receive justice. We know, you know, the unit that the soldiers came from who who committed these crimes, but we don't think that there's going to be any way to identify them after conflict. So do you think that there is any hope for justice when it comes to the sexual violence that is perpetrated by the military?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:19:24
So the military has been committing those crimes for a very long time. And it is clear it is quite clear that they be using rape and sexual harassment, sexual violence as a weapon. So for many, many years, there are so many cases in the chair and the chin case that you talked about, where three soldiers raped a pregnant mother, sorry, a mother who had just given birth, and they forced they basically forced her husband to watch when they were doing it. So those things you know, it's not just with kitchen, it's not just with chair it's not just with Rohingya. I mean we all So have reported cases of Rohingya women being raped by Myanmar soldiers. And is not is not only limited to armed conflict areas is it also happens in, you know, at an interrogation center mentally parents mentally perilous interrogation center. So those notorious detention centers and interrogation centers. There are also cases like that. So I think I think we can draw a pattern from there that the military has been weaponizing rape and sexual violence for many, many years, and like you said, it can amount to war crimes, or with a range of case genocide, or crimes against humanity. So So I think with that being said, we can take it to the International Criminal Court, or we can build a case and, you know, take it to take it to the court. But, of course, it's, it's a long way, it's honestly a very long way. But sadly, what we see right now is most of the conflict related sexual violence committed by the military, we can't talk to the survivors because they don't survive, honestly, because they kill them. The victims have been killed, they rate them, and usually they kill them. And even if they don't kill them, they are so scared that they can't talk at all, like we can't find them. So with the with those cases, committed by the military, it's hard to talk to the victims or survivors. But on the other side, if those crimes are committed by the revolution side, we at least they don't kill them. I mean, in general, right. So we can talk to them. So this project hasn't started yet. So we'll see, like when he actually implement the project, and we'll see how it goes.
Brad 1:21:54
I mean, obviously, we're very hopeful that that project is going to be very successful. And as you as you say, yeah, when it's the pro democracy side, I mean, it's not, it's not much really, like it's really not much to be able to say, well, at least they don't kill their victims. But from from the perspective of sort of long term justice, I suppose that yes, that is that is a very significant factor. By Yeah, it's it's a very daunting task, I think, trying to trying to unpack and trying to process and trying to do go through a legal system to try and find these. I mean, it's even occurred to me, and I'm sure it must have occurred to others, that the people soldiers, right, those who are part of the Commodore who have left, who have defected and joined the revolution, there is a possibility that among those soldiers who have, you know, defected, and they've received, you know, some monetary compensation, and at the very least, they've received a tacit promise of immunity. Among them, there may be people who have committed these types of violence. And after off the victory in the revolution, there might be some very difficult questions of like, Yes, I committed crimes, and I did terrible things. But I also defected, and I joined the revolution. And I was promised amnesty as a result of that, and I have no intention of answering for my crimes. It's it's a very difficult situation. I think to try and unpack I think, I think, after the after the conflict has ended after the actual fighting is done. I just genuinely cannot begin to imagine the work that has to be done to try to track down the perpetrators of these types of crimes, especially sexual violence, which is historically a very difficult crime to investigate. It is a crime that people very often do not report, as you say they're terrified. And, and I would, I would ask, I don't know what the cultural context is. But I would ask, is there an element where if you've been a victim of sexual violence, that that marks you, as the victim, as a bad person or as a person to be avoided or a person to be socially shunned would would someone trying to come out and say I was the victim of this crime and I want to get justice? Would that person as the victim face social repercussions and social ostracism for attempting to come out and get justice?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:24:56
Yeah, I think even though the society has been more welcoming and helping people to voice out their concerns and their experiences. And there's still a lot of victim blaming. So even when like the victim comes out and the victim or the survivor comes out and say that, okay, I've been the victim of this crime, there's still a lot of pushback. And I think it really depends on the case, sometimes people are very open to, you know, help them and very kind. But a lot of the times, there's a lot of victim blaming, they would always ask questions like, Okay, what were you wearing? Why, you know, why did he do this to you about why did that all points to that? The person, you know, being blamed? There's a lot of that, and with what you said about the soldiers defect in the military, and how they can be the perpetrators? I totally agree. Right? So I think people, people, soldiers, they always have to be really careful, like, who they let them in? Who they let them like, join the groups, because, you know, they have to go through a due diligence process, to make sure that this person is not someone who has perpetrated committed those crimes in the past when they're in the military, or who maybe you know, can be an informant. Right? Who knows. So So I think that people soldiers, you have to be really careful of, you know, who they help and how they help them? And how, to what level that they lead them into the circle?
Brad 1:26:29
Absolutely, absolutely. It's, it's difficult times that we're in and that need to sort of take someone who's an ally, but still sort of keep them at, at arm's distance. Just in case, I think, I think needs to be, needs to be remembered. But, but so this, then it's just as you were talking, I was just thinking, this is a feedback loop. Right? If this is a feedback loop, when you have a situation where you have a society that puts pressure on victims, you do not incentivize people coming forward, you have a society that will protect perpetrators, based purely on their political alignment. And you you have a society where, where people just don't want to deal with it, they don't want to talk about it, they don't want to bring it up. The end result of that, of course, is that the perpetrators are not punished. If the perpetrators are not punished, then the message is being sent to other people that, hey, like, it's it's open season, you can, you can commit these crimes because you won't be held accountable, you won't be punished for it. Yeah, it's technically illegal, but no one's actually going to stop you. And that perpetuates a cycle where these types of sexual violence, these sexual crimes become much more commonplace, and become much more normalized by society. And then because they become so frequent, society just sort of gets used to hearing about them. And people start thinking, Well, you know, this is, this is just the world in which we live, you know, if you don't want to get robbed, don't, don't, you know, walk around at night wearing expensive clothing, if you don't want to get raped, don't walk around at night wearing revealing clothing, and these, these sort of excuse making, you know, mantras just sort of creep into the, into the cultural vocabulary. It's, it sort of feels like the problem exists. Because the problem existed before, and nobody took it seriously enough, and now it's gotten worse. And it will continue to get worse until someone puts their foot down and says no, like, enough is enough. But society is just not there yet, unfortunately. But then again, most countries struggle with this for some, for some reason, though, very few countries genuinely take sexual violence seriously enough, I think we can agree on that.
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:29:06
You know, I think that's why we have to have you know, even when the energy cannot do much, or even when the organization's cannot do much, we have to have a reporting mechanism, where you know, women and girls can report to, can report to and then talk about their experiences in the cases. And then someone keeps a, you know, a report or documentation on them. And, you know, maybe one day we will be able to suggested maybe not now, but, you know, we have, we have I think the potential to actually doing it, and especially taking the case to ICC or other platforms.
Brad 1:29:45
Yeah. Which unfortunately is quite difficult when it comes to the ICC when it comes to a lot of these international bodies. That's that's that's something that's come through very clearly whenever I've spoken to international law experts, there's really no If the ICC, the ICC doesn't want it, apparently that seems to be the answer. The ICC doesn't want to have to do things, if at all possible. They just want things to be handled quietly, domestically. Away from The Hague. Yeah, that's that's kind of the this kind of the mess. But speaking of the ICC, of course, you know, what they're most famous for is dealing with genocide dealing with with war crimes and crimes against humanity. And so, I know, from previous discussion with you that that one of the the topics, one of the themes that you've been be focused on bringing it back to what we're discussing before, is the idea of battle ethics. You know, the, the way that you prosecute a conflict matters. You know, there's, there's a very, there's a very strong sense among a lot of people who fight and who put their lives on the line and have maybe seen people die. That, you know, this is not playtime. This is not an opportunity to philosophize, and be a sort of, you know, poetry writing revolutionary, far from the front lines philosophizing about, well, you know, what is moral? What is not moral? And and how should we ask, should we resist in the most ethical way possible, it's very easy, very tempting to say, No, this is life or death, if I don't kill them, they will kill me, or they will kill my friends or they'll kill my family. Although I've burned down this village. And it, it's very easy for people on the frontlines. I'm not saying that they will do this, but it is very easy for people on the frontlines risking their lives to justify to themselves, things that under other circumstances they might look at and go no, that was clearly wrong and immoral. And and we've definitely seen this, there have been even on on the PDF side, the EO side, although there has been a very strong concerted efforts to maintain the principles of the Geneva Conventions, there has been a strong concerted effort to maintain a level of professionalism and a standard of ethics. We have seen cases of violations of the laws of war and violations of of human rights in conflict. So what can you tell us about the focus that you've had on battle, battle ethics and the sort of work you've done on that?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:32:26
So for us, the rule of thumb is like, Who is the target? Who is a military target? And who and what are our military targets? And what who and what our non military targets? So so a lot of the times people generally see as Oh, it's easy to spot a civilian, it's easy to spot a combatant. But in the case of Myanmar, there are a lot of informants and spies and things like that. And who the businesses who, who, who are linked to the military. And you know, those who are in the gray area, right, let's see those who are in the gray area. So what we do is we question we invite the leaders of armed groups to our panel and Oxfam like, okay, sorry, no panels, interviews, Oxfam. Okay, who is, who is this event and who is a combatant? So basically, we give them a space to think, to think carefully. Okay, is it really that clear? Is it really distinct distinction? This? is the distinction very clear. So that's what we do them like, we don't push, we don't pose our influence onto them, or we don't push the answers. We don't pressure anything. Basically, we just give them a space to just stop and think. And then you know, they can come up with their own answers or their thinking. But usually what we see is, after we have interviewed them, they go back to their armed groups, they question they keep the question to themselves, and then the policies, we can change the policy policy making improvements.
Brad 1:34:10
I think that's, I think it's very interesting. I'm just wondering, how do you how do you verify that or how do you measure that? Because you're saying like, when they when they go back? It has this, this effect?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:34:25
Because they come back to us, they come back to us and say, okay, yeah, these are the policies that we have come up after our last talk, like maybe like, it takes like, three months, six months, but usually they come back, they come back and say like, okay, these are the, these are the things that we've been trying to work on. These are the policy that we've been trying to make, what do you think of this? So So then, like, we can actually sit down with them and talk about it. So So because we're not fighters, we're not fighting at the frontline. We don't think we're in a position to tell them what they should and they shouldn't do because they're the ones who are fighting at the frontline. So of course it's totally up to them to have whatever policy that they think is good. But what we can do in the meantime, is to familiar, familiarize them with, you know, rule of war, and then, you know, to come up with policies like sit down to come up with policies together, so that, you know, they can ask those questions, and then we will answer them to, to our best extent possible, and then, you know, come up together. So. So basically, what we do is to pause to make them pause and think that's all.
Brad 1:35:32
Because, of course, the the N ug Ministry of Defense does have the code of conduct that they've been slowly out of the question is, have you, I assume you've seen the code of conduct? Do you have any thoughts on it?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:35:49
I think it's one way to have, you know, code of conduct or slogans written down. But a lot of people say that these are just slogans that are not really actually implemented on the ground. So and Yugi, to some extent, I think, want to have a symbolic effect. So they would have policies, and they would have things on paper that will say, Okay, we have those things, you know, we follow these rules, but how much the energy have, how much power and you have on the people at the ground? It's a totally different question. Right. So So I think, instead of having the slogans that you may or may not follow, it's better to talk together and come up with actual strategies or policies that can actually be implemented and followed on the ground. So that's why, like I said, we don't tell the armed groups what they should and they shouldn't do. All we, all we do is ask them difficult questions, so that they will go back and think to themselves, and then come up with their own answers. So so it's very, like close to the reality of what they can and they can follow. Rather than like having slogans written down and not being followed.
Brad 1:37:00
You know, what I really like that it's, there was an observation that, that I made a while ago, there are two things that I realized about going back to Facebook, Facebook arguments, I realized two things. Number one, it is incredibly rare. For a person who gets into a Facebook argument, to admit that they are wrong, right? It is very rare. However, what you tend to see, and I've observed this in myself as well, like I'm not, I'm not beyond this, but what you tend to see is, you get into a Facebook argument, you had a very strong position, somebody came along, and maybe they were very aggressive, maybe they were very sort of mean and they made you look like an idiot. But they brought good information. And you walk away from that experience, very angry. But you also remember that their information was pretty solid, you you couldn't respond to it, you couldn't react to it, you didn't have a counter argument. And so the next time you go on Facebook, and you try to say the same thing, you say it a little bit softer, you leave yourself more opportunity to sort of, you know, defend against these types of cases. And each time you get into that argument, you never admit that you're wrong. But each time you get into the argument, you soften your position a little bit, because you do accept some of the information that is being thrown at you, you might not like those people, and you'll never give them the satisfaction of letting them know that they were right. But you kind of you learn from that. And, and the other thing that I that I realized, and this is why I get into a lot of Facebook arguments that that, you know, my friends will tell me like, why are you wasting your time you've been in this argument for two hours, you know why you're doing this? And I explained to people, I believe that when you get into an argument online, you're not arguing with that person. What you're really doing is you're laying out information for the benefit of the 10 people who are watching that argument, the people who are thinking, Wow, I feel really good right now that I did not join this argument because I would have lost and they're learning something. And so your approach, I think, has hit on exactly what needs to happen. You're not combative, you're not confronting, you're not saying well, this is the thing, and this is what you have to do. And this is what you should have done. All you're doing is you're just sort of you're putting something on the table, and then giving them the space to walk away and think about it and and come to their own conclusions and maybe realize like, hey, damn, okay, maybe maybe my thinking was not perfect, maybe there was some gaps. And by not coming across confrontationally you leave that door open for them to come back and say actually, can we continue this conversation? I think, I think that approach is is if anything more likely to be successful than a top down I'm sort of commanding approach, even if the Ministry of Defense were capable of walking in to every single local PDF and saying, This is the way that you're going to operate, and we're going to have oversight, and we're going to punish you, if you don't do this. I do think that your, your approaches you've described it from a psychological perspective is, is probably the, the best way of doing it. Because you're just sort of getting a person to the point where they are realizing that there is a mistake in their thinking, you're not walking up to them and saying, You're wrong. You're just saying, here's some things you should think about. And then waiting for them to put the pieces together and come back to you and say, Hey, I've encountered a problem. Can you help me with that? So? So I do think that that, that is a very smart way of going about it, I do think that that's, that's a really positive, positive approach, especially if, you know, if a lot of these these groups are men, and, and a lot of you and your colleagues are women, I'm wondering, does that? Does that dynamic? cause any friction or cause any problems? If you're trying to give this type of advice to predominantly male fighters?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:41:21
Yeah, I think you're right, that, you know, basically like this, my approach, not on this panel, or sorry, channel, but also my day to day life. Because usually, like you said, like when someone post a nasty comment on my Facebook post, usually I would ask them, like, Oh, I see that you're angry, like, What makes you say that? And then they question themselves, like, Okay, why am I angry? So, so that's my day to day approach. And with, you know, with regard to, for my ethics, we're not fighters, right? Like, we're not at the frontline. So we're not telling them like, Okay, you shouldn't use use this. weapons or things like that. But I asked a lot of times, I asked the leaders of armed groups like questions like, you know, what weapons in means and methods that you limit your soldiers from using? And then maybe when I ask the question, maybe they don't have the policy, but they, it makes them think it makes them think like, oh, do I have a limitation? Like, do I limit them? Do I restrict them? And then they go back, and maybe like, they come back to us and say, like, okay, we're thinking about it, we're starting to think about it. But what do you think we should do? And then only then I said, Okay, do you use land mines? You use this? Do you use that? So things like that. So maybe they'll use land mines, but I don't go around and tell them like, Okay, do not use land mines, because that's not my position or my job to tell them that because they're the ones who are actually fighting the worst. So they know better than me. But all I can do is ask them those questions. And, of course, those armed groups are mostly very much, you know, male dominated. But I think generally, my experience working with them is fine, because I have a good relationship with them. Before I interviewed them, I tried to keep a good relationship with them first. Because you know, I can't go around and say like, Okay, I want to interview you, because first I have to build relationship with them. And then I told them, like, I'm not here to criticize, I'm not here to judge you, you do whatever you do, we just want to talk to you, we just want to ask you a few questions. And then only then like, they come up with their answers, and they open up and then we discuss. So I think that's actually like the way to create dialogue with you know, not only on groups, but also with people in general, right? If you want to have a proper discussion, you give them a chance to talk you give them to find out their concerns and their experiences, and you do not judge them. And after that, you know, you will have proper fruitful discussion.
Brad 1:43:51
I'm wondering, can you estimate how many, not how many groups, but even how many people are in those groups, that that you would have been able to impact in this way?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:44:05
Oh, it's hard to say because the numbers are always changing. But um, I have done 10 episodes. So let's say turn on groups. But I mean, of course, it doesn't mean that like I changed their policy, it just means that I have talked to 10 people from 10 Different armed groups.
Brad 1:44:24
Fair enough, but do you have like any concept of how large those groups could or could not be?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:44:30
Ah, they're really different. So sometimes, like I talked to people from can you, which is very large, and I talked to local PDFs as well, which is relatively small. So it really depends. It really depends. But and also, I don't just talk to the leaders. Sometimes I talk to leaders, for example, like candy F and B PLA, like those I have a good relationship with. But I also talked to like, you know, not very high level soldiers as well. Or like logistic persons, or basically like anyone who's at the front line.
Brad 1:45:05
Interesting. And just tying this back into what we were saying at the beginning, in any of these, did you? Did you ever speak to women in these capacities?
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:45:14
Of course, of course, I talked to more women than men in these capacities. Because I think it's really important to hear their voices. We also talked to LGBTQ as well. So the people that we talk to, that I invite to our interviews and podcasts is, it comes from a wide range of backgrounds, right? There will be like a drone person who gave technical support to the drone team, in the n ug, or there will be like a leader of an armed group like mo Sankar, the leader of B PLA, or you know, like a woman, a Muslim woman who has served in the military or like, it's very different. It's really different, like the age, the age range is also really different. And ethnicity also different. So we try to be as inclusive as possible. But of course, because there's not a lot of women at the frontline, it's, in reality, harder to find women. But we tried our best to invite more women to our interviews and panels and podcasts.
Brad 1:46:19
Excellent. And so that that then does indicate that there there still at least, are women who are who are working in these military roles. Whether even if it is logistics, or things like this, at least, they do exist.
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:46:33
Yes, at the frontline. They do exist, but maybe not combat roles.
Brad 1:46:36
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting stuff. So look, I think we've covered a lot of different topics here today. And I think, I think they all tie well into one another, I think it all sort of comes back to the same basic underlying issues, the same basic underlying underlying problems. But as, as we've been able to discuss today, whether it's, you know, targeted at women, whether it's targeted ethnic minorities, whether it's targeted, LGBTQ, you know, whether it's being perpetrated by the military side, or whether it's being perpetrated by the pro democracy side, the same problems, and the same issues seem to continually creep in, they seem to continually come up. Because the roots of this type of thinking are, are very deep in the communal mindset of of society. And there is definitely going to be a lot of work to be done going forward, to change this mindset and to change the culture, and to really set a new standard. And, and I'm grateful, and I think millions of people are grateful that you and your colleagues are doing the work that you're doing. And that's that's why I do want to thank you very much for coming on and sharing the story. But before we end the episode, we always invite our guests to, to leave the audience with some thoughts, it could be directly related to what we're doing today could be something a little bit more broad, but anything that you think the audience should think about, that they should know that they should consider share with their friends and their family. Any final thoughts that you have on this episode, I'd like to invite you to just share those with us now.
Hnin Thet Hmu Khin 1:48:16
Thank you. So my advice for First of all, men and LGBTQ and allies, is to help women voice out the concerns as much as possible, and amplify that a woman's voices. And my advice to women themselves is to speak up whenever they can. And sometimes I say that, you know, you exist in in this very male dominated world is already enough. Maybe you can't speak maybe you don't have a chance to speak. Maybe there are barriers, but just you know, just living just surviving to exist in in this very male dominated world. It's already a voice. So thank you so much for having me. I hope you enjoyed this talk. And I hope the audience will also enjoy this talk, thank you.
Host 1:49:17
For whatever reason, even as the conflict and Myanmar continues to worsen, it somehow continues to be shut out of the Western media news cycle. And even when the foreign media does report on the conflict, it's often presented as a reductionist, simplistic caricature that inhibits a more thorough understanding of the situation. In contrast, our podcast platform endeavors to portray a much more authentic, detailed and dynamic reality of the country and its people, one that nurtures deeper understanding and nuanced appreciation. Not only do we ensure that a broad cross section of ideas and perspectives from Burmese guests regularly appear on our platform, but we also try to bring in foreign experts, scholars and allies who can share from their experience as well, but we can't continue to produce this consistency and at the level of quality we aim for without your help. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities post. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CVM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or you mark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by a nonprofit mission that any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website betterburma.org and donate directly. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at betterburma.org. That's Better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar available at alokacrafts.com Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's aloka crafts spelled a A L O K A C R A F T S one word alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.