Transcript: Episode #260: Beyond the Headlines
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:08
You're listening to a special version of the Insight Myanmar podcast, which covers the fallout from the military coup and the Democratic resistance. During this crisis, we are not only ramping up the production of our podcast episodes, but also our blog and other social media platforms as well. So we invite you to check these out. Along with signing up for our regular newsletter. All of our other projects have been paused indefinitely. So we can focus entirely on this ongoing emergency. But for now, let's get into the show.
Brad 1:35
And welcome back, my guest today, once again, we'll be sharing a perspective that we have not looked at in particular depth throughout our coverage of the crisis. And we are going to be looking at, among other things today, the German perspective, the German media and political perspective on the Myanmar crisis and potentially more broadly, the European perspective. But before we get into all of that, we will be talking about a fascinating trip that my guest today took to Myanmar itself. So with all that said, Helen, I'd like to thank you very much for joining our program. And I'd like to give you the chance to introduce yourself and your background for our audience.
Helene Buchholz 2:13
Thank you for having me. I'm Helen, I'm a journalist from Germany, I usually work from the German public broadcasting network as a radio journalist. But for the trip I did to Myanmar, I went with some colleagues, also from the German Broadcasting Network. And we're going to produce some films for a younger audience on YouTube, for this public broadcasting network, about the trip. So my interest in Myanmar is more a private one, I have some friends from and in Myanmar. And so I'm interested in the region in the country in the conflict. And I was reading a lot about it during the past years. And so this cooperation between me and those experienced wire reporters happened.
Brad 3:13
Excellent. And I think the broader theme is going to be shining through this episode talking about the importance of getting that information out and trying to reach an audience that maybe has not yet been. All that all that impacted, and all that aware of the ongoing crisis. So with all that said, you said you yourself, am I correct? You said you are not a war reporter by trade?
Helene Buchholz 3:42
Yeah, that's true. I usually work for the local radio station. And I don't haven't been to any war areas before this.
Brad 3:54
And so I'm just curious, like, on the internal side of things, how does that? How does that happen? Is there a particular processes that particular training that you had to undergo? Or did you just put your hand up and say, you know, I really care about this issue, and I want to be on the ground so I can see it for myself and so that I can report on this what was the process that took you from someone who stays sort of away from conflict zones to subdue someone who actually traveled to one?
Helene Buchholz 4:22
Yeah, I think there are two main aspects. So in my private life, in contact with a lot of garment workers unions around the world and I have visited Bangladesh or Northern Sri Lanka, which I would say is obviously, obviously not a war zone, but still a conflict zone. So this is where I have already been to areas that are not very touristy before. And then when I was talking to my colleagues who are experienced wire reporters, we obviously prepared for a long time So it was months before that. So we were talking to the people on the ground with the low codes, how the situation is and how it's developing. And yes, I had to do a certain training, which is mostly for the insurance, because there are insurances for wire reporters. But then you have to do this certain security treatment training. It's called heat, hostile environment awareness training, where you learn about first aid, about how to deal with fires. Also, if a car is on fire, or how to change a tire if you're not, not in the city, with all the right equipment, but also how to act if you're in a checkpoint.
Brad 5:57
So this is the training I had to do before I could go through the interesting stuff, actually, because we don't, we don't see much of the we would say in English, how the sausage is made, we don't necessarily understand how, how a war correspondent is created. So knowing that there is this process to go through is really interesting.
Helene Buchholz 6:12
So they're also sorry, they also faking a hostage your yoga taking, you're getting taken hostage during this training, too. So really, it says, yeah, they train you a few days before that always was like, only a short amount of time where they fake an attack or something. And then at some point, they come and take you hostage for a few hours, and you have this thing above your head so you can see anything and tide hands and they will interrogate you and stuff like that.
Helene Buchholz 6:56
It sounds very, yeah, but there's also a psychologist there. So that's, I think, an important aspect that you can always leave the scenery. Yes, always someone who will take care of you.
Brad 7:10
I mean, yes, it's pretty important to have that safety net. But then, but then, of course, ultimately, I mean, the end of this is you go to Myanmar, and you don't have that safety net, that you don't have a psychologist on hand. And, and you know that, you know, if you do get taken hostage, it's you know, it's for real. So I'm always I'm always curious to know, like, as you're preparing to cross into the country, and and you're thinking, Okay, I'm currently in a country where I am, you know, residing legally with my visa, and I have legal protections and people know where I am. And I'm about to move into an area that is a conflict zone where there are landmines and drone strikes and artillery and people are not going to know where I am, my phone's probably not going to work. And I'm definitely not going to be welcomed by the regime. What's going through your mind, as you're preparing for this? Are you are you apprehensive? Are you you know, second guessing your choices? Or are you just so focused on on the process and the checklists that you don't even think about it?
Helene Buchholz 8:17
Yes, I do. I do think about it a lot. And the thing is, as I said, I'm not worried Porter. And this was something where I was asking myself constantly, why do I do it? And what I do, what do I do it for? So for me, it was very important, because I think I'm not only taking a risk for myself, so also the people who are welcoming me, the people from the camp are taking a risk. And I always wanted to make sure I don't know if I can fully do that. But at least for myself as myself. Is it necessary to go? And I decided, yes, I think there are reports in Germany on this conflict, but not, as I see it enough. At the moment, I mean, I do appreciate the work all while reporters are doing but at the moment, I would not go to Ukraine or Israel, because there are a lot of reporters. So I always wanted to make sure that I see some kind of sense in it. So we were planning the trip for November, December last year, and we had to postpone it. And after that, after Operation 1027 The situation changed very much. And for a while. There were a lot of journalists who were covering the situation and then I was like, Okay, should I still do it? But then the conscription law came and the reports were declining again. And then I said yes, I think I I should still do it. And I was preparing for this for a long time. And I do think that I know a little bit about the country and the conflict. And I think it was the right decision. But this is something that I asked myself over and over again, like every week that I was thinking, Okay, does it still make sense? And I think I had a lot of trust to the people who I was planning it with on the ground, the locals because these were my contacts. I'm worried not all of them. But some of them I knew before, and I trust them a lot. So I was thinking, if they say it's possible, I will go with it. And then I wouldn't I try to not think too much about how it is if something happens. Yeah, I know, something can happen. And I'm reflecting on that. But everything else, I think, is a training of mind control. And that's also what we were alone learning in this heat program now that they will always saying the worst is if you don't accept things, so I tried to accept every situation that made me nervous, like waiting for a long time, sometimes just waiting, and you don't know what's going to happen. And you just have to accept that. And I just, it's easy to say, but I tried to prepare for that to just accept what's happening and that I cannot control everything.
Brad 11:43
I mean, that makes a lot of sense. And so timewise when when did this happened? Because you mentioned the the conscription law, if I remember correctly, that came into effect in February of this year. We're currently recording in April. So this trip would have been quite recent.
Helene Buchholz 11:59
Yeah, the trip was in the end of the end of March. We were there end of March. And I came back I think first of April, something like that. Maybe 30? March? Yeah. So it's just two or three weeks ago.
Brad 12:17
Wow. Okay, so that's, that's pretty incredible. So it must be very fresh, fresh in your mind. So let's, let's talk about the actual content of the of the trip. So you were you were in the east? You you get across the country? And if I remember correctly, you said you were you were embedded with or not embedded with but you were interacting with PDF groups and go into civilian villages you didn't you didn't come into contact with with the military at all, did you? Yeah,
Helene Buchholz 12:48
no, I did not come in contact with any military checkpoint. We got pretty close, I think. But I was in a PDF camp. And we also visited other camps, mostly. Training camp when you recruit arrived just 10 days ago. So we were also talking to them. So the conscription law was quite present. And my main interaction was with the PDF soldiers and the new recruits.
Brad 13:21
So it seems almost ironic, but would you say that that one of the effects of the conscription law has been to drive higher levels of recruitment for the PDF?
Helene Buchholz 13:33
Yes, I would definitely say that because most of them said that themselves because they say the whole population, more or less, the whole population is on the side of the PDF or not on the side of the military. But maybe not everyone wants to fight. But when you don't have a choice, many people say okay, if I have to fight if I don't have a choice, then I will go to the other side.
Brad 14:01
Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so So this is where it gets interesting. So you say you were in the PDF camp? Can you just describe to us what, what is a PDF camp? Like, what are we? How big are they? What is what is life? Like? What is the rhythm of life? What is the activity going on there? What were you doing? Because you have 24 hours in a day to fill? And I'm sure you weren't filming every second of it. Like what was life like in a camp?
Helene Buchholz 14:33
I mean, I have seen this one camp and visited others. So I really don't know if it's everywhere the same, but the camp I visited was it changed during the time I was there, because the commander wasn't there the whole time? I think. So. Usually, they start the day with lining up. They didn't do that every day when I was there, but you As far as I understood, they usually do that when the commander is there, they are lining up in the morning before breakfast. And they are shouting or chanting something which was more or less like my sole purpose is to protect the civilians to remind themselves of why they are there. After that, that's breakfast. And then they have some duties like cleaning the campaigning, the weapons, things like that. And then I think the rhythm with us was maybe a little bit different, because we then went to visit the, the training camp for the new recruits. And we always had to take soldiers with us. So we were not allowed to leave the car during the trip. And then we always had to sit inside the car, and they will all pick ups. And on the back, there will always at least two or three soldiers coming with us. So they had the purpose to go with us and to protect us during that time. And in the training camp, they were just getting started, they did not have even the bamboo huts yet, because also the PDF camp itself. It's not like built houses, it's bamboo huts, they build themselves in the jungle, because, as you said, there's always the danger of air strikes. And you don't have these systems that like sirens or any warnings or anything. Yeah, so in the training camp, they were just getting started. So they did not have any bamboo hats yet, as they have in the PDF camp. Because also in the PDF cam, you don't have like real houses, you have bamboo huts. It's in the jungle, because you don't have like sirens or any warnings if there's an air strike or anything. So the main thing why they are protected from airstrikes is that it's hidden that the hunter doesn't know where the camps are. So the PDF cam, in the PDF can we were sleeping in bamboo huts, and in the new recruits camp, they were just getting started and preparing to build the bamboo huts. They were sleeping in hammocks in the jungle. And that was their main task for those days that we were staying that preparing, because they also had to build up their own shovels and preparing the sticks, the bamboo sticks. So that's that that was was mainly was happening are lining up talking about what they are doing their what their purpose is. Preparing food, obviously, because it's also an important task that they have enough food, they get donations from the civilians around, as far as I understood to have enough food and preparing that and building up the camp.
Brad 18:12
Okay, so most of the activity is it seems like it's more your maintenance construction and just labor basically seems to be the Yeah, yep. Okay, it's really interesting. And did you like Did you speak to the civilians themselves as well? Or were you separated from them?
Helene Buchholz 18:33
Yeah, we did not speak to civilians. As I said, we were not allowed to leave the car when we were going from one place to the other. Because white people in that area are always suspicious. And you never know. If there's any informant between them, so they made sure that usually people did not see us because they don't know what we're doing there.
Brad 19:04
Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense. So, but I presume that you're able to conduct some sort of interviews with the PDF. While you were staying with them?
Helene Buchholz 19:16
Yes, yes. Sure. I talked to a lot of people.
Brad 19:22
One would hope. So the question then comes like, what, what were you getting from the PDF themselves? Like, what would they say? What was their perspective on the conflict, their perspective on the PDF as an organization? What, what what are the themes that you were hearing from them?
Helene Buchholz 19:39
Um, there are I think, two things that I've found most interesting. On the one hand, these are not like they have not been trained soldiers before like you have another war zones or conflicts where you have an army anyway and They start fighting when the war starts. So all those people had different hopes and dreams and jobs before that, and never thought of fighting with guns for their lives. So this was the one thing that was special to me, because they were usually saying, my motivation is to protect the civilians, because the junta kill civilians. That was what I heard over and over again that the junta is just killing elderly, women, children. And this is something that motivated people like them were students, or just workers or I met a graphic designer, he was a graphic designer before the coup, who are fighting because they just see how cruel the junta acts, and that they really want to protect the civilians from that. So this was the one thing. The other thing was that I think they were quite professional. And we were asking them, how do you do that there is at least no official support from other states for the resistance from armies. So how do you get this training? How can you act so professional, even if there's a lack of everything, they don't have enough weapons, they don't have the same weapons, they have different rifles, they don't have enough cars and stuff like that. But to us, it seemed that they were acting quite professional. And they said that they get, they get trained from the ethnic minority groups that er owes. And I think that I would like to talk to a speaker of the Qur'an or any other group if they would confirm that, but to me, it seemed that they are really appreciating where they are, and where they get the support from, because we were in in a cabin area. And they really appreciate that they get trained by those people who are fighting already for decades in the jungle, so they have all the knowledge. And as far as I understand, this was not the case during the past decades, even under military dictatorship, that there was so much cooperation and appreciation for each other. And at least this is the impression that I got that they do know where they are, where they get their training from. And that that is something that I find very important if we are thinking and talking about what is going to happen, even if the hunter is defeated, because there are so many different groups, so many different interests in this conflict. How are they going on if the junta is defeated? And if they are already building, building up networks between those groups and starting the negotiations already now, not only the fighting, and if the Burmese people are appreciating the ethnic minority groups who are fighting already for decades, I think it's a good start. And this is something that's really came up more than one time?
Brad 23:48
Absolutely, I think it's one of the themes that that we've seen, there's, there's one person that we're talking to I don't know whether the episode is I can't remember whether it was actually recorded yet or not. But one person we're talking to who was embedded in Finland, one person we're talking to who was embedded in Karenni. State. The the narrative of cooperation between different resistance groups is just a a consistent theme that that we are seeing, and you are quite right, to say that this is unusual that there was not this level of cooperation between anti military and anti dictatorship groups before the coup. De says this has really been a galvanizing point that has brought together ironically, the military, who has deliberately fostered mistrust between different groups, and factionalism across the country, as a way to justify its continued existence has in fact, inadvertently created unity and solidarity and the new national identity I'm through the coup, it's a really fascinating thing to see. And I'm frankly, I'm a little bit jealous that you get to have this firsthand. It was, it must be such a such a, such a unique experience to have had.
I can confirm that that it was brilliant. But the other one as well as I want to talk about the morale because, you know, you're talking about all these people who have lives and careers and their jobs and their prospects and dreams. And they choose to give that up so that they can join the PDF, they can join the revolution and try to liberate the country from the military. But what was their outlook? Because it's one thing to say, this is the best thing that I can do, or other people who are just saying, Well, if I have to fight, as you say, if I have to fight because this conscription law is coming into effect, I may as well fight on the revolution side. But how do they feel about their chances of success?
Helene Buchholz 26:07
I think quite good at the moment. So the interesting thing was that I mean, I was in the jungle with people who had, as you said lives before World War or less forced to fight. And I didn't see devastation or much. disappointment in life, I had the impression that the morale was quite high. And I think this is there are two aspects why this might be on the one hand that they are gaining ground. I mean, I say they but it's the like, since operation 1027 And the three brotherhood Alliance, they're always reports on that the anti junta movement gains ground. And I think this is something which is really empowering for them. They know that they have good chances at the moment, because the morale for the hunter soldiers is very low. I mean, if you compare the junta has the support of China, Russia, also Iran, and they have all the money that they can have, because they are controlling the economy in the country and the oil and gas industry. But still, as I always hear it, they don't have the soldiers anymore. And this is the the reason for the conscription law, because the soldiers just don't want to shoot their own people anymore. And on the other hand, you have the PDF and the ethnic groups who are fighting and who don't have airplanes, and not the same equipment. But still, they have a very high morale because they say, Okay, we don't want the civilians to get killed. And so they are very motivated. They're fighting for their future. And they are connected now, what they haven't been before 2011. Under the other military dictatorships, they did not have the connection within each other, they can communicate with other parts of the country. They know what's happening somewhere else. And so this is also motivating. I think if they see we are not isolated here, there's a big movement around the country. And there are successes somewhere else. So I had the impression they have very empowered.
Brad 28:55
Okay, that's really interesting to hear, I would. I would say it's even better than then. You portray it in some ways, specifically, when you say that the junta have have the support of China and Russia and Iran and things like this, that some of the information that we've we've been receiving lately is that that support is greatly diminished. China is is very angry because their economic interests are not being fulfilled. They haven't been able to receive copper, they haven't been able to receive Nicolle dysprosium, terbium Jade and so on. Plus, you know, what is it like 120,000 predominantly Chinese citizens are being kept as slaves in the scam centers. And China's very angry about this. Russia is busy in Ukraine. Iran seems to be you know, busy focused on on Israel and the Middle East and conflict. So the friends that the junta has a sort of walking away from them because they have have other things to do or because the junta is not good for business and the money is drying up as well with with more and more sanctions being put in place that are actually impactful and actually do cut the junta off from major sources of revenue. So if anything, it seems like the revolution would have even more cause to be optimistic than even that, and you seem to be saying that the attitudes are good. And this was just to clarify. Melody was just recently liberated. In in Korean, you were there before this happened?
Helene Buchholz 30:34
Yeah, just a few days, I was still in Southeast Asia when I heard the news that was just a few days after I came back.
Brad 30:46
So it's really interesting that it's like, yes, so Operation 1027, which you mentioned, obviously has a very positive effect on effect on morale. Operation. Oh, 307, which is the k a's counter offensive in in Cochin, obviously, again, brings positive morale. But you were saying morale was already high, before the liberation of melody. So presumably, right now, things in Korean would be would be even even more optimistic than when you were there? would be difficult to imagine. But you know, oh, to see it. So. So that anyway, so that that trip that you took? It sounds absolutely fascinating. And it's a fascinating little glimpse into the PDF and how the PDF operates. I'm wondering, did you did you interact at all with ethnic armed organizations? Or were you only interacting with PDF?
Helene Buchholz 31:45
No, I was only interacting with PDF. That's why I said before, I would really like to talk to at least a ghost Karenni or current spokesperson or from any other state channel or Rakhine to confirm my impressions. But I mean, I was there for four days, which, before I went, I thought, that's quite a long time if I'm only in one camp, and now I think it's limited time. And I have so many more questions. So yeah, so I think my read my research is not really done yet. Because I'm still interested in other perspectives. And I still have a lot of questions left.
Brad 32:31
I mean, I think that's kind of the sign of good research. If you if you have a research question, and you investigate, and you answer your research question, and you go home, you probably didn't do very good research, good research ends with even more questions than you started with. This is always the case. But okay, so all good things must, must come to an end. And back to Germany. With all these extra questions that do that you haven't been able to answer, but you fly back to Germany, you've you've investigated as much as you can you've done your interviews, I presume you've gathered together a lot of media that you say you're you're producing for YouTube content and things like this. My question then is when you fly back to Germany, other than the psychological decompression of returning from a conflict zone? What is that reaction within the media space? Because you're you're working in the media space. So here they have someone who's just come back from a conflict zone, you've been talking to what essentially we might regard in the West is rebel fighters. And how is this being treated? Is this being treated as a priority within within the media that the media organizations you're working for? Or do you find that even with all the work that you've done, it's not quite getting the traction and the attention that you think it should?
Helene Buchholz 33:55
Yeah, I think it's not getting the attention that it should. So you know, Ukraine is so much closer to Germany, and also the Middle East is not only closer, but there are so many more strings to the Middle East that these conflicts are much have a much higher priority in the media. And I'm not saying that there are no reports on what's happening in Myanmar. But even if there are the reports on what's happening, I have the impression that many people even that I know privately, they don't really realize what the situation in Myanmar is, even if it's in the in the news because they don't really know. Okay, where is this country? What's happening there? And if there's a report on, oh, they gave me Awadhi they don't know what that means. And the reports are usually not. Not long enough in the news, too. blank all of this. And I mean, there is a big newspaper in German news constantly reporting on that. But on page three or something, so I'm not sure about how many how much war can you process. So there is already so much going on, which is much closer to us. So this is it's kind of frustrating. Because, yeah, I think the priority is not really there. Everything else is more important. And now, Israel has a tag or has his attacks with Iran, which is just happening now. And we're just very, very up to date. So it's very hard to get in between those reports, I would say.
Brad 36:00
And I kind of understand that. I almost saying that there's a there's an element of, of audience fatigue or information overload, that you just can't keep feeding people information about, about conflicts around the world? Or, or do you think that there is a way that that this story could be communicated and could engage with an audience that is not going to overload them?
Helene Buchholz 36:28
I think it's difficult because yes, I do think there is this overload. And I'm not sure how to work with that. But as I said, we are producing content for YouTube. Because we have from the German public broadcasting network, we have a format for a younger audience. And this is basically on YouTube. And I think it can be a good way to address a younger audience, because the people in the PDF can are very young, and you can identify with them was their life they had before. And the conscription law, the funny thing funny and not as the usual offense. In Germany, it's discussed. Now, at the same time, obviously, it does not have the same effect on the younger people as in Myanmar, but at least there is some point of identification that they are discussing a conscription law, that they had different lives before. And maybe this is one, or this is the point where I try to go in and tell the story from this perspective. So they can identify with that.
Brad 37:51
So this is something that I am I'm curious about because I was quite I was a little bit shocked, you know, out here. So I, I'm based in Australia at the moment, and there are quite a few Myanmar citizens in Australia. And there was in fact, a an immigration firm, who were advertising on social media, specifically, in response to the conscription law, trying to advertise to Myanmar people saying, Hey, if you are trying to seek asylum as a result of the conscription law, then contact us we can we can help you to process this. That in and of itself was not unusual. What was unusual or disappointing was the comment section. People who don't know anything about Myanmar was saying, Well, you know, you shouldn't try to leave your country just because there's conscription law, you should serve in the military, you should do your national duty that and this is in Australia, a country that does not have military service. And I don't like that. I believe there was conscription in Australia in in World War Two, I think they may even have been conscription in Vietnam, although I'm not 100% on that, but they're there after that there has not been any military service. I do know that in Germany, there is a system of national service, which can be military or it can be civil service. Does that the presence of that system? Does that impact the way people react to this news of oh, there's a conscription law in Myanmar.
Helene Buchholz 39:27
It's a bit more difficult because we had the construction for a long time. Only a few years ago, they changed that. And then you could say no, I don't want to go to the military. I can I want to do so the service. It was only for boys but so I did not have to deal with that. But when I was about 18 to 20 All the boys and my surroundings had to decide okay, am I going to them lottery or am I doing some kind of civil service, but as a default, they had to go to the military, if they don't want that they had to apply and then they could change that to civil service. And then a few years ago, they changed that. And at the moment, there is no, that you don't have to do any of that. But they are discussing that now again, because of the war in Ukraine and the situation with Russia and stuff like that. So that's the situation.
Brad 40:39
Okay, so. So it's like the the idea of conscription is already present in the minds of German audiences? Yeah, that would be the Yeah. So then. So when you talk about the Myanmar conscription law, does it? How should I put this like, is it a story that you can tell? And have people sympathize with the Myanmar situation? Or is it a story that people will automatically flip from a Myanmar situation and bring the conversation back to the German domestic conscription discussion?
Helene Buchholz 41:15
Had to tell? I hope that it's more of a point of identification. But yeah, I think it's very hard to tell because I don't I don't really know yet. And I think it might be very different. Different in not, depending on who you're talking to.
Brad 41:45
Yeah, so So then it more broadly speaking, then, do you think that there is going to be any way to get the Myanmar story just across to German audiences? Because it sounds like there's not much going on currently, like I, from our perspective, I think we sort of think of the Germans, or at least I do, and I know many people in the English speaking world think of the Germans as generally being more invested in these international stories. And and definitely, when you look at the productions of things like Deutsche Avella, who do English language productions, covering a lot of different conflicts and a lot of different different things around the world, the impression we get is that a German audience is much more interested in foreign affairs and and conflicts that are not necessarily directly related to German interests. But you seem to be saying that that's not necessarily the case. So is there any way to overcome these hurdles? Do you think?
Helene Buchholz 42:44
Yeah, had to say. So. It's interesting that you mentioned I developed because I think it's very interesting what they are doing, but it's not that perceived is that the right word that there is not such a big audience in Germany, it's more the international audience that they are speaking to. And I also think that this also differs a lot with the interest in different parts of the world. So we have a rise of the right wing parties. And I think they are mostly interested in conflicts like with Russia, or something where they have some kind of interest in this field. And there is this other group, I would say, in Germany, where the more or less, more liberal left intellectuals who are very interested in what's happening around the world. But still, I think the focus usually is in where the ties are, and what affects us the most. And I think Myanmar is geo strategically not very much connected to Germany. And something like the oil and gas industry, who's working in Myanmar. That is something which is very far away, because it's not like, you go to a store and you decide, Okay, do I buy here or not? Because I know where they are producing things. Oil and gas is more or less the second line. Yeah, you don't see that every day even if there are companies who use this for their production and then you profit from that, or you benefit from that. So that's it. So much more complex the supply chain, that the people don't really feel connected to this region. And I think it is difficult to really to really place this this topic in the media or in the public consciousness.
Brad 45:26
But it's because this comes into the other thing that we saw coming from Germany, that I think, for many other countries in the West has become, I would say very successful PR in Germany. That is, if we go back about 10 years, we look at the period around the Arab Spring, and then the subsequent sort of destabilization in many countries in the Middle East and the rise of ISIS. We saw Germany take a very leading role within Europe, with regards to welcoming refugees resettling refugees, and we saw scenes in Germany of you know, the football fans, who you would naturally think of as, as more hostile to migration in many other countries, they would be very hostile to migration, even they were coming out in support of refugees. So the image that Germany has, has cultivated very successfully, I would say very deservedly, through the 21st century is of a country that is very invested in humanitarian causes, and it's very invested in, in helping people who are who are fleeing persecution and fleeing oppression. But that one would presume would translate to having a greater interest in Myanmar and a greater interest in in helping and talking to you it seems as though Germany is not really in that position, at least when it comes to Myanmar is is not is not all that interested in taking up a humanitarian cause just for the sake of taking up a humanitarian? Cause? Can Can you sort of explain like why this is?
Helene Buchholz 47:06
Yeah, I think the picture that you were just drawing is just is just one picture of whole, I'd say mosaic. So there were those people were welcoming refugees. And it was very public. But it was, on the one hand, only a very short period of time it changed. When they work. They're welcoming more and more and more refugees over the years. And in the beginning, it was very easy. Yeah, you could just hold the banner at a football match. Or you could just go and donate your old clothes, and then you felt you have done something for humanity. But in the long run, a lot has changed, because some difficulties arose. Yeah, where where are they all living? We have a, I'd say, a housing crisis, at least in the urban areas, we don't have enough space that is affordable, which is a different problem. I wouldn't say there are too many refugees. But this is the short answer that many people would give to this problem. And I think it's much more complex does not have to be a shortage of housing. But it's usually it's just too expensive. And that has something to do with the was the market. But this is one side of the story. And the other thing is that Germany is in the middle of other European countries. And it's more easy for them to say yes, sure. Come here, because they are not coming. I mean, there are refugees coming, but we don't have the same problems, like Italy or Greece will facing much more difficulties, because they don't get the support from other countries who are far away from the borders of Europe. And these are two aspects, I think that make the picture a little bit more complex. And yeah, so the right as I said, the right wing is also rising. So I wouldn't say that Germany as a whole is very interested in humanitarian or human rights movements. Of course, that are people in Germany who are interested. There are others who have a very different agenda. And everything is changing over this period of time and how the whole situation is developing. And that's very, very complex.
Brad 50:07
So long story short, you're basically saying that Germany has experienced what many countries and what many individuals experience when you, when you throw yourself into, uh, into something that that's, that's good. But when when the reality hits of the actual cost of effort and time and other ancillary things, you you start to cool your attitude towards, towards what you were doing. Yep. Yeah. Which is perhaps not surprising, it's not unique to the German context. It's just very unfortunate that this is this change is happening right now. And that's okay. And that's interesting. So, really, because what it is from, from my perspective, you know, we've been doing insight Myanmar for a while I, I've been working on this podcast for maybe two and a half years now. And in that time, the idea of an information campaign, and how to successfully spread the necessary information has been a consistent question. And nobody really has a good answer to this. But you know, it's, it's in the, these areas of silence and areas of darkness where the worst things can happen, because if no one's looking, and nobody's asking any questions, and nobody cares, you can get away with any, any crimes. And that's why it's so important to make people all over the world invested in this crisis. And not just Myanmar, obviously, you know, there are crises around the world that people need to be aware of, and need to be invested in so that we can put pressure on them, I think, a very wonderful example of this would be South Africa, international pressure on South Africa was actually instrumental in bringing about an end to apartheid. And so, that's why we need to have all the international eyes on Myanmar. And, you know, I work with indirectly media from from Europe, from different countries. And there are so many PDF groups, there are so many, you know, Aeos, there are so many people working for the revolution for the national unity government, whoever who was standing in line, saying like, please, you know, like, will do interviews will, will take you around the country will sneak you across the border, we will do all these things, we are happy to do these things, if you can spread this message, it seems mostly to be difficulty in getting media who are interested. And those media, when I do talk to them, the journalists, often what I hear from them is saying, Well, I want to, I would love to I'm very passionate about this, I'm familiar with the Myanmar conflict, all this, but my company is not willing to pay for it, my editor is not willing to give me the permission for it, you know, insurance is not willing to cover it. And that indicates that those media houses do not view that Myanmar crisis as significant enough a story that it will bring in that audience interest that will make it worthwhile for them to take the risk. So So ultimately, what I want to ask you is do you think that you have any ideas on what can be done to foster that engagement to foster that investment to foster that interest? So that we have a situation where the journalists who want to cover the conflict can cover it because the media houses do see the value in doing it? Because the audience is interested in knowing what's happening? Do you know how we can build those bridges?
Helene Buchholz 53:42
If I would only knew that so I have the same impression, unfortunately, what you described and yeah, if I only had an answer to that, I mean, I'm not sure how to change this information crisis on the Myanmar issue. I would just say, never stop trying. And I think in the end, that's, that's what I did or what I tried to because the people I was going with, to this camp, I'm usually not working with and I tried so many other offers before that, and they were all rejected. So I wouldn't say I can change the problem. I can only try to do my part and do the best as I can to inform some people and it's I think the it's more on a on a smaller scale. I don't know how to change that in the big picture.
Brad 54:52
Fair enough. I mean, I think you're doing a very admirable job, as it is by actually Going into the country talking to the people and trying to get their stories out there. And I think, especially the fact that you plan to put it up on something like YouTube is going to make it particularly accessible, much more readily shareable. I think many, many in the legacy media have not done a particularly good job of exploiting the the platforms that are more popular and are more easily accessible. Because of course, if you're using somebody else's platform, you don't retain as much control over what you get, you don't, you know, your analytics are not going to be as clear that money is going to be more complicated, but they are very accessible tool. So I think you and your team are definitely making a very powerful, very positive contribution. The big question then comes is like, how can we make sure that the recipients of that message are actually listening and are focused and, and are invested in continuing to, to get updates about what's going on in, in in Myanmar. And the only hope that I have at the moment is that with the success of 1027, with the success of of Oh 307 With the success of the current capturing K A new others of the Kenyan capturing reality, with against a different interview about that, on the horizon, with the successes that we've seen in currently state? I'm hoping that the Myanmar crisis is not going to be another story of depression and sadness, and Oh, how terrible is the world, but rather, is going to start being told and and shared as a story of hope and optimism and uplift, saying, rather, instead of saying, well, here's a terrible military dictatorship that's oppressing the people, we will now start telling the story here is a group of people that managed to overthrow an oppressive military dictatorship, which, which is it sounds very different. And it appeals to an audience, who are who are already very, I think, weary and tired of hearing about conflict after conflict after conflict. And they're looking for a little bit of optimism. And I'm very much hoping that we can start to, to tell them Myanmar, conflict in these optimistic, appealing terms in the near future.
Helene Buchholz 57:27
And not only overthrowing the military, how we have seen in the Arab Spring that they were overthrowing a dictatorship. But after that, nothing really developed and to a better direction. And this is something that I'm interested in now. And what I was saying before, and that I would like to ask also other spokespersons from other groups or from ethnic minority groups, if they are really already working on these strong ties, among all these different interest groups, and building up federal democracy, already, before the junta is defeated, are already working on that before and working on administrative structures in the freed areas, then this is something special, and this would be very interesting. If you're looking at other conflicts, because this is something I don't really remember where this happened before, I think this is it's a common problem that there are many people who have the same enemy, and defeat this enemy. But after that they don't know how to go for forward. And this is what I'm hearing now that there are so many efforts on this process already. And if this is really working, then this is also a very interesting story, and not only the victory of the hunter, because the very challenging process will begin after that.
Brad 59:07
Absolutely. And I think, you know, this has been a conversation we've had on our side as well, this this question of, but what do we, what do we do after? After victory? What do we do after the conflict? And the answer I get given is like, well, after the conflict, we have even more work to do, even even for our role as media. If you'll permit insight Myanmar to label itself as media. After the conflict, there'll be so much work to do and so many conversations to have so many people who need to have their voices spread in in the long complicated process of forming, forming a nation forming a stable democracy a stable federal system. They will be much but at the very least we can say Then in Myanmar, we actually have a plan, there is the roadmap for democracy, there is already a plan in the works for how to tackle that difficult, difficult road. And as you said, in the Arab Spring, I mean, we saw what we would say, Out of the frying pan into the fire. In some cases, we saw the installation of military dictatorships after after the governments were taken down, and it's just a perpetual cycle of, of oppression, really. And yeah, Myanmar, I think does stand out as having possibly the best shot of not only the braiding itself from military dictatorship, but yeah, as you say, establishing a lasting, you know, democratic democratic system. And it just, it just boggles my mind how we don't have more people who are who are deeply invested in this. It's such a, such an incredible case study. It's such an incredible story, such an incredible conflict, which which represents, I believe, a radical turning point where we say like, No, you don't, you don't need Western intervention, you don't need the United Nations, you don't need the EU, you don't need the US, you don't need these things. You can overthrow a dictatorship by yourself. And you can result in a stable democracy, hopefully, that's what we're going to be seeing very, very soon. If this succeeds, or when this succeeds, I think it's permanently going to change the ways that we look at conflict, the way that we look at international relations. And I think it's going to have flow on effects to all of the the governments around the world that depend on their populations being broken down and, and depressed and pessimistic about their chances of ever seen freedom. Because it will remind them that at the end of the day, if you do come together, and you do unify against this government, you can succeed, there are more of you than there are of them. And when that message gets out, it is it is terrifying to dictatorships. So I again, I'm just I'm just very shocked that we don't have more people who are following this, you know, second by second by second. But I don't know, we just have to hope that the message gets out there. In some weigh in, in some shape. Yeah. And you're doing your part with this podcast. So slowly, inch by inch. But then the question that becomes on your end, are you planning at some point to return?
Helene Buchholz 1:02:41
Yeah, I'm planning to return when the quanta is defeated to celebrate on the streets. Latest, no, there are no no other plans for now. But still, I will stay invested, and they will stay interested. And I, as I said, I have all these personal contacts, and also the union contacts. And this is what I said before, in my private life, not my journalist life, I have these connections to the unions from Myanmar. And we already had those contracts before the coup. i When the coup happened, and they had to go underground, or they were becoming illegal. And they were very invested in the city and movement. We were already supporting them. So these are ties that are, I think, hopefully strong enough, but we already have them for like more than three years now. And so even if I'm not crossing the border, again, very soon, I will most likely keep in touch with the people and maybe meet them soon again, in exile at least.
Brad 1:04:03
I mean, yeah, I have to agree that I'm in a very, very similar situation without myself but that that dream of going back and and celebrating in Yangon, with you know, with the people who were fighting with the people who fled, you know, whose lives were turned upside down. That, you know, it's a comforting dream. It's a comforting thought, you know, it keeps you going. And, and, you know, my hope is like, okay, it's 2024. Now, let's say the war ends in 2024, as there have been some analysts who are saying that it will, let's say the war ends, you know, 2025 2026 What if we go forward to 2030 or 2035? You know, Can we can we sit in Yangon and look back and say, things are actually better now because The coup happened. And because we were able to get rid of the military, things are better now than they would have been, if the military just continued to control the majority of the economy and control, you know, the government and control the budget and, you know, limit the amount of political progress that could occur. That's everything happening now is terrible. But if it leads to a country that is better off, because it managed to completely free itself of this disease, of this this corrupted and suppressive military, then then you know, we could argue that it's, it is worthwhile, it is, it is, in the whole, good for the country, that that it has come to a head in this way, and that there will be an actual conflict to, to completely get rid of the military. But all of this is conjecture. We don't we don't know what, what will happen. But we do know that what is happening now is you're going to be you're going to be making your documentary gonna be sharing that. And please do send that to us. And we will, we will make sure that our audience, if, if you have something uploaded, we will we will link it at underneath this episode. So our audience can find it and they can view it, I assume that the content will be in German. Yeah. Unfortunately, but you never know. We, we have we have German listeners as well. So we will, we will link the content if you have something ready to go. But in the meantime, I do want to thank you very much for for coming on and sharing the story. And I really hope that we can find ways that that get this story out and get the German audience and all audiences around the world to be much more engaged in this on this issue.
Helene Buchholz 1:06:54
Yeah, I think it's what we were discussing just right before. Be interested in what's happening, because it might be, it might become a good example in the future, because I do think there is much more to this conflict. And with all the negotiations that are happening in the background, and not only the fighting, it's it's very interesting what's happening there and how they are trying to prepare for federal democracy among so so so many different groups that are invested in this conflict and have different interests. And I do think this is a very special thing about this conflict. And so it's really worth to be informed or get informed about what's happening there.
Host 1:08:00
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