Transcript: Episode #259: Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi
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Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 0:00
He became a monk very late in life, and then he was not learned in scriptures. One day, he said he went Ruby mining in moco. He had been a farmer, he had been a roadside worker and so on. And one day in moku and at a roadside stall, he saw this book, contemplating arising and passing away first, without even contemplating Mind and Matter, your wrong view, your deity would not even be shaken in the least bit.
What do I do to get rid of this wrong view of self, sekaya deity, it was close to the venerable was saying, you are only contemplating arising and passing away, and your Sakaya deity will not be shaken off, even in the least, least bit he was saying, so what do I do now? I was thinking, and he was giving me the answer to get rid of seq deity. Go back to contemplating Mind and Matter first only with contemplation of mind and matter, your view, your wrong view of selfsaid deity, will be dispelled. You.
Host 1:47
Whether one is listening to this in Myanmar or from outside the country, we know it is a very difficult time for those of us who hold the golden land and its people in our hearts. In trying times like these, we can all use a bit more care and compassion in our lives. So on behalf of the team here at insight, Myanmar, I would like to say, in the traditional way meta is offered, may you be free from physical discomfort, may you be free from mental discomfort, may You not meet dangers or enemies, May you live a peaceful and happy life, and May all beings be free and come out of suffering. And with that, let's move On to The show you.
Ah, so I'm so glad you stopped by a spontaneous talk with Dr Jenny koji. You were in the area, and one of the people that I really wanted to have on for a long time, it's really difficult to try to put into words everything that it is you do. One of the main things you do is translations. You translate for foreign Yogis here and all kinds of traditions in mon le and Mogok and SUU min yo Sayadaw, the Buddhist university, ITB mu. You've also done written translations for a number of work. I think you've worked on projects with sayagyi u ba Khin translations as well. So
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 4:09
it's YA Sayadaw, also known as the ba coqiao, of course.
Host 4:13
Paku sayada as well, right? And a lot in addition to that, we'll get to all of that. There's a lot of Dhamma activities that you're involved in today, so many ways that you've helped foreigners and enriched the life of foreign meditators and monks and nuns who've come to this country, and even these this hour or so that we interview. I feel bad that both of your phones have to be in a separate room and turned off. I can only imagine how many calls you're going to be getting from people who are in need of your help, but we just grab you for this moment here and able to check in and hear about everything you're doing before we do that. What I'd really like to know is just start at the beginning to be able to to know your background, to hear about where you can. Came from that that will help us to understand the all the different Dharma activity and the spiritual journey that you've been on up to here. So if we could just start back at the very beginning and learn about your early days,
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 5:18
like most of us, we started school in those days. We went to Christian missionary schools, the St Augustine on Ian road, and then St John's convent on Bucha Aung San Road. And having been brought up in those schools, I was not very much into Buddhism, but then when our family, my husband, was posted to the Western mountain ranges, I started to have this chance to read about the buddhavamsa. And then it was, it was then that I realized I wanted to really hear to talk about great people in the Buddhist way. And then I wanted to hear about their teachings. And in the most unexpected way, I met my very first master.
Host 6:26
If we can back up just a little before that, because I've heard your story before, and I think there's one thing you're leaving out that I found very interesting, was some of the first spiritual interest and contact you had at I think St Augustine's it.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 6:41
Before that, I was not much into Buddhism, because we we started school saying prayers, and then we went to the hall across the crossing over, across the compound, and then we sang hymns. And those were the things I loved, the Christmases, the Christmas trees, the carols. And then when I and before that, I then after, before that, I because I was a swimmer, and I moved on to St John's because I had more swimming teammates there. I loved those carols, those churches, because the atmosphere quiet, sweet, serene and when I when I entered churches, the the quiet and serene atmosphere was what, what attracted me.
Host 7:49
And how about your family? Did you come from a Buddhist family? Or, Sure, definitely, definitely. So although you came from a Buddhist family, you didn't have an early interest in Buddhism, and actually, your first spiritual interest was Christianity, Catholicism? Exactly, yes,
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 8:03
because my parents were so nice and whatever, whatever interest I had, they would not push me hard. So it was the hymns, the churches, Christmases, the carers.
Host 8:23
Those were the things as a young girl, and the saints as well, attracted you. Yes, yeah, in what way?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 8:29
Because in those days, it was what, what I what I heard, what I learned, because I will. I hadn't heard much about the arahans that I am now very much interested in, and so all those books, those and then, of course, the Christian the saints that we read in in Christian schools where also they were also very virtuous persons. They had their sacrifices, they had their good deeds that they rendered toward all they came across. And even though it's not like the those great beings in Buddhism that I now am familiar with those Christians. They also were great beings, great humans, with all their compassion, with all their faith and what they were doing. So they too, they have the very interesting and wonderful parts of their lives I was interested in.
Host 9:42
And so you went to Catholic school, Christian school, here.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 9:48
In Myanmar, those days, most of us, we all had to go to those schools. There were Burmese government run schools, of course. And then in remote villages. The Burmese schools, where all they all they had. But for most of us in cities, though, those missionary schools were all we all had. This was the best style of education. Even people like sayagyi u ba Kyaw was educated in his capital schools, every one of us, almost of right until 1962 when and then our teachers, the our fathers, our headmasters and had headmistresses, our mothers, they were also very lovely, and they were they too, in their own way, in spite of their missionary intentions, they they do had their way of giving us compassion, giving us all those teachings. They were from which countries? Sam it's the St Augustine, I thought, I think it was Father Kyoto. Was from France, I think. But our headmaster and our headmistress, they, they were born in Burma, Mr. Todd and Miss Reynolds, they were born in Burma, because in those days, it was during the colonial days and post colonial days. So we had all those from Descendants of the Western colonial rulers.
Host 11:15
So these weren't people. These weren't like expats today who were backpacking and raising their family another place. These were actually civil servants that were either members of the government, former members, missionaries, also the fathers the mothers.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 11:24
We call them fathers, mothers, like you do, I think so, and we are fond of them as much as they were fond of us, right?
Host 11:34
And this, these missionary schools lasted, I believe, until 1962 this was the way men who were educated in 62 all of them were closed down, and with it, this higher level of education that now only the older generation of Burmese tend to enjoy, because the after that generation, there hasn't been the same standards of education, unfortunately.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 11:54
And then what I liked a lot was the church. When you when you went in, it was quiet, it was serene. And whenever and whenever you went in, you feel this inner peace that you I don't know about the my other Buddhist friends, but I liked it so much. That's great.
Host 12:19
That's great. So you graduated from these schools. I assume you got married fairly soon after.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 12:25
My husband was from St Paul's, a very big missionary school, right?
Host 12:30
So? And then after you were married, then soon after that, you were posted to the jungle.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 12:36
Yes, to the near the western ranges. And then by that time, it was mostly Buddhist thing. But we have our chin natives from the Western ranges near the border with India.
Host 12:50
This was gengor. Was the Yes, yes.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 12:56
We have the chin, chin, chin. They call it the chin hills. But it's not the hills, it's those are very high mountains.
Host 13:04
So this is in the chin region in western Myanmar, close to India.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 13:08
Ours was the ours was the just Pong town, Pong Yang ranges. We call it the Pong town Pong Yang ranges. And beyond that narrow valley.
Host 13:21
Then come the high in the chin, chin district.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 13:24
So yes, afterward we were also posted to southern chin, which where we had a wonderful days and years of our lives and our son's lives.
Host 13:34
And chin people are mostly Christian?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 13:35
Mostly Christians. And we were in southern chin, so it was almost half, half, half way Christians, halfway Buddhists, but northern chin, it was mostly Christians.
Host 13:47
And what was your husband's position?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 13:50
That he was being posted at the Peng tau. He was a commander of the regiment there, the 50th Burmese regiment. And then after that, we was, he was chairman of the Council, or something like that, in southern chin.
Host 14:05
So how was life different there?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 14:09
When you when you move our family, wherever we were, we enjoyed everything. We loved all the people. So being being posted to Pong Ng and being being posted to the chin hills, we loved every day, there, every moment, there.
Host 14:25
What did you like about it?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 14:29
The people, yeah, the people, the place, the winters, the cherries, the pine trees, the oranges, the apples, very different. Yeah, the and the people. I love, the people.
Host 14:39
What did you like about the people?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 14:42
I love them. So they loved us. They loved our family. Because, although our family was the chairman's family, but our children, they, they, they were all mixed up with the native children, and then, oh, my. Husband was a musician. He played the guitar, he played the organ. And then the natives, the Christians and the Buddhists, the natives, all came, and they had this band. It was the wacog, is the bird with that big beak. And then we had, we, my husband, made made disorganized this band. And then many days they were all the children were there playing all their drums, their guitars, and then the electronic organs, and then they were making music. They left us too.
Host 15:43
Great, great, yeah. And so then sometime into your stay, there was when you had a very significant encounter with someone?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 15:50
Oh yeah, when we were in gang go in the in Punta, Aung pun Yangon, and then I one of our majors, wife, she gave me, me this book on, he gave me. She gave me this book on, I think about loving kindness, and then I, when I read it. I couldn't put the book down. It was and then after that, I went to the book because I was the commander's wife. I was a I was a young wife. But then all the monastery and monasteries in town knew me, so I I read all the books and translated into Burmese. And although SUU Dan Das, SUU tan Das. And then one after another, I I read. And then there was sayagyi moe U dams, translations of the Sultan Das. And there was this, there was this chapter on the on the Buddha's passing away. And it was there, or the Venerable Ananda was weeping, all, all the, all the, all those who had only attained the lower stages of deliverance, and they were weeping. And the deities came, and the Buddha was, the Buddha was asking, where Ananda was, why are you so? In tears. And then I wept too. And then, and then I fell in love with the Buddha while, oh, I want. I want to be I want, Oh, I miss him. It must have, it must have been such a sad thing, and so on. And after that, I read about arahants, and I thought it would be good if I could see an arahant in my lifetime. And then I was working at the cooperative clinic at that time, and I worked in the morning. I worked the morning shift and the other doctor, my my commemorate him, he worked the evening shift, so in the afternoons, I was free, and I had this, I had this young teacher, and I told, I asked her, where have you Been? And she said she was at a meditation retreat, and I told her, Oh, I, I, I want. I want to have, I want to have this chance to have an encounter with an arahant this life. And she said, I'm not sure if he's the one, but if you are interested, I will take her. Take you to him. And then this is how I met my first master, and hundreds of instances I had with him.
Host 18:52
And what was his name?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 18:55
Mong Lesiado, Mong Laciado. And in those days it was, it was a small meditation center. Not very many people there, only the villages near the near the little hill. The Moe le center was on a hill lock. And then there were paddy fields in between. And then there was this West kangaroo, a now Kangol village, and most of masters devotees were from that village. And now gang go, and there was Xiong Xi those were the chin Buddhists. They, I think they had been there before the colonial days. So they were chin Buddhist. And they, they were the they were the only, only devotees, the very well had at that time, so a small following to begin, yes, and during the rainy season, when the Betty plantation started, there was almost no one coming to the monastery. But of course, they would have, they would have a meal offering they sent. Through the Capilla, the attendant and during the in those early years, during the rainy season, I was almost the only one going to the venerable to the MOE center every day. And in those days, we didn't have a bridge, so we had to, we had to whistle the boat to come pick us up. And then, and then we we crossed the sesame fields, and then we went up a small hill, which was the palang in those days. It was for palancon, 100% chin Christian village. And then beyond that, we walked through the paddy fields, and then only then we got to the MOE le Hill lock.
Host 20:47
And so it was quite a trip to walk from your place.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 20:52
And during the summer, the water level was low. And occasionally, once or twice, I would just swim across the Oh, wow. Rivulet,
Host 21:06
Really, countryside life.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 21:07
yes, I loved every every moment and each time we were the order came for us to be transferred. I wept, the family, the regimental family, wept. And when we were to leave the chin hills, also, I wept. The natives wept. I was so fond of these people.
Host 21:33
What were your early experiences like with Moe Sayadaw?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 21:37
I didn't know he. I thought he was just an ordinary monk. And then the first thing, the first day I went there, it was, at that time we could, we could drive across the rivulet. There were the men mayor. It was a temporary bridge made of bamboos. And then, and one day, I went there first, the first time, the second time, and then the third day, I thought, Okay, this is enough. I just study because there is this dependent origination circle. And I Okay, I'll just study at home. And then on that dependent origination circle, I found something. And then, oh, this I have to ask. So I I asked my, my husband's chauffeur, chauffeur, to come. And then we the salmons would start at one, but we have to drive all the way along the along the small town, and then into a small village, and then cross the very shallow river and then reach the other end and again, cross, go drive through two or three other villages, and another small stream and so on, and the Bank of another stream and so on. So I was saying, Oh, I won't I don't want to miss the salmon. I don't want to miss the salmon. I don't want to miss the salmon. I was thinking, Oh, may I be there in time. May I be there and I may I was I was praying this the whole throughout the journey to the center. And then I, when I got there, they were about after the rains retreat, when all the petty hair had been harvested. There were about 10 or 12 people, or sometimes 20, when the teachers after holidays, when they have the holidays, they come so and when I, when I went in, it was a very small hut. And then when I went in, the master said, of course, you are in time. You are not late. And then the first time I had, maybe he knows I was praying, I would, I would, I would be there on time. And this is the first time. And then the second time, it was the fourth day, I think. And in those days the deforestation started those who had power, those who had money, and those Pong, tun, Pong, ng ranges all covered with thick wood and hard wood. And then slowly, they were gradually starting to disappear. And I was very sad about this, but this, this was how things happened in those days. And then some of those with power, they start, they started to get involved in, though, in those things also, and on the way, on the way to the center, on the. Day I was, I was saying about, I was, I was saying about, in a Burmese saying, there is, there is this saying a wheel that that turns so fast, then they will it will have, it will accidentally step on the pile of Tang.
Host 25:25
And we were talking about this. Can you say that in Burmese?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 25:28
A Leone, if it goes round too fast, a Leone being chain step on the tang pile of dung Leone. So the case got you the higher people. And then the girls in the car who were coming with me on that day were saying about this, this thing. And I told them a Leone, Ben chi, Mina BA, I was saying, because this, this will turn so fast it it stepped on the pile of Tang. And then we entered the small Dharma Hall. And then venerable he started narrating the story. And while narrating the story, he He stared right into my eyes and with with lips. What do you do when he was exaggeratingly saying this? And he said, You know what? This, this, this, and this happened to that person. And he was narrating a story. And then he said, so he was exaggerating. It a Leone being chain the wheel that turns fast. It steps on the pile of dung he was saying. And then the second inn looks like he knows he must be the one who knows things that I had been looking for. And then he asked me to enter attendee retreat. And my young son's one was only seven. Was it seven or they were about six and eight or seven and nine? So the final examination was coming, and I, I was hesitant to enter the retreat. When the venerable was saying, telling me to do it, but he said, see which one benefits you more, the practicing the Dharma and succeeding, doing, doing well in your practice, or the children's examination. Just weigh yourself which one is more beneficial. So I was alone with my two sons. My husband was in the front lines, at the front lines, but I went home and asked the teacher, the class, teacher, could you help me? The venerable says I had to enter a retreat. So he and there were only my two boys would be left there and private. So I just left them. And when I and then my practice started, of course, and when I concentrated on in breath, out breath, the most I could do was five times, seven times, 10 times would be the most. And then mind would start wandering. And on the about the fifth or the sixth day, I decided, okay, I can't concentrate at the nasal tip, so I might as well give up. And on that night, the venerable mentioned in his Dharma talk, the sermon about temperaments. And he said, those with those with predominant craving, predominant Jerry da, they have to practice the we don't pass Sana, contemplation of feelings, because, in the mahasati, patana, the Buddha says, because, in the dependent origination, the Buddha says, we don't bijya Tana. Therefore those with predominant jorita, craving, predominant craving. They have to practice the contemplation of feelings. And then those with predominant teacher, Rita temperament, with wrong views, predominant wrong views, they have to practice the chaitanu Pass San, because it is in mind that wrong view to us. Of course, you, when you when you go into details. There are so many, so many practices and so many steps. But the venerable was, I think he was intending. This particular subject toward me, and this is this was all in this very brief way he was talking about this. Therefore, those with Te tirita, wrong views, predominant wrong views, they have to practice the chaitanu Ba Sana, the contemplation of consciousnesses, because it is in mind that wrong view dwells. We don't know cheta kya, nupa Sana, those with what is the word for that ragacharita, raga cherita? What is the word for that raga, raga, raga jorita, they have to condemn them follow the Kyaw nupa Sana, lustful, lustful temperament. Sorry, thank you, lustful temperament. They have to contemplate the Kyaw nupa Sana, only when you are aware of the non beautiful, those loathsomeness of the kya of the of bodily, loathsomeness of the body and so on. Then your lust will be gradually overcome. And finally, he said so while he was mentioning these, the those with lustful temperament, those with we did not we did not be chattanah, those with lustful temperament, the Kyaw, nupa, Sana and then te tirita, predominant wrong views. And while he was mentioning these three, I was wondering mentally, mentally, I was trying to make out what, what category do I belong to? And because I was, I was only 32 or 33 at that time, so I was rather young, and I was, oh, do I belong to the last 12 temperament, or this, or this, or the wrong view, the temperament with predominant wrong views.
And I was wondering which, which category I belong to. And as I was wondering, though I'm speaking, while I'm saying this, it goes, it takes some time, but while I was thinking the Venerables instantly giving the answer, in those days when, when I was just thinking, and he was instantly giving me the answers it was taking. These were taking place so fast. And while I was wondering which, Which category do I belong to, and while I was just thinking, and before the my thought even ended, the venerable, save the venerable, Venerable, was saying, those with, those with, with, do I say intellectual or intelligent, intelligent temperament, or what do I What do I say? They have to practice the tama new persona. And even when he has, even when he had said that, I was not getting the answer. And he was, he continued to say, those with intelligent temperament while meditating, their mind goes here and there. One thought comes up, another thought comes up.
Host 33:37
These are those with intelligent temperament, or, I think, I hope this is the right word, maybe an analytical mind or something, yes, yes.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 33:41
And then he said, those with this temperament, intelligent temperament, they have to practice the dhaman upasana. So I or maybe Sana is what I have to do. I was thinking. And I was at the same time I was thinking, What do I do with Dhamma nupa, Sana? And while I was thus thinking, while I was thus thinking, What do I do with Dhamma anupas Sana, the venerable was saying, Dhamma nupa Sana, in brief, is to contemplate the arising and the passing away. So okay, I contemplate the arising and the passing away. And from the next day onward, while I was walking, I would contemplate, when I set foot on the ground, this is hardness. And then I I raised the foot, I lifted the foot, or the hardness has passed. So you changed your practice from the in breath, out breath, in breath out breath to arising and passing, right?
Host 34:46
I think that's a really interesting story, because it also highlights when you're in a country like Myanmar, where you're able to have access to some of these great masters who not only have the study of the words of the Buddha and are able to quote. By memory what's written in some of these scriptures. They not only have the meditative experience of their own practice and knowing what what works and what doesn't, able to give directions that way, but they're also able to to connect with the student on a much deeper level, as you've described, answering questions almost before you're able to ask them, even as you're forming the thoughts in your mind, the answers are coming. And so this is highlighting this special experience that you're able to have in this country of so much wisdom background coming from a teacher that's able to not just give you kind of a one size fits all technique and just keep working at it, but is able to give you different options of how to practice based on both his party and Patti. Patti study to guide you exactly.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 35:47
The thing is, he became a monk very late in life, and then he was not learned in scriptures, but one day, he said he went Ruby mining in moco as a lay person, as a layperson, as a very, very it was those who have very difficulties. He had been a farmer, he had been a roadside worker and so on. And one day in Mogok, he in a road at a roadside stall. He saw this book first, it was the but it was by another Seattle, not Chau Tembo. I think Chau tem Bo, Chau tem Bo. And then after that, he was he was very much impressed reading this child, Timbo, by the Chaldean Bo, Sayadaw, stone boat, yes, yes, yes, yes. Chalm Bo, and then stone boat, Sayadaw, yes. After some time, he found the venerable mo gokia's book. And then he and then he was, he was so satisfied reading the Mogok siyados, especially the dispelling the wrong views. And after that, he went to Manderley, and where he met his first master, teaching him the Mogok method.
Host 37:21
So this was a teacher in the Mogok tradition?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 37:25
Yes, right. And then he came back to that little hill, and then that was where he practiced. So he gained the instruction of the Mogok method from a teacher in Mandalay, and then went off by himself and the nature of the chin hills to pursue the practice. He it was his village. Oh, he was from there. He was. He was from Punta, Aung, at least.
Host 37:49
Right. So that was his home region.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 37:56
Yes, I'm not sure. I'm not sure he could be because he spoke chin, also, oh, a little bit of chin, right? But then the dialects the area, even this village and the next village, you don't understand it exactly. So it was about the servant, or the eighth day, I heard about Master saying it is to be to be aware of the arising and the passing away. And during me, there were not very many people there. So I I, I had lunch at the at the end of the at the west end of his monastery. I was the only one having lunch there, and I was while I was having lunch, and after I had each each time after I had swallowed a mouthful, I would say, Oh, the the tongue, consciousness has arisen and has passed away, and then there would be another mouthful, and then swallowing in and I would be contemplating, oh, another tongue, consciousness has arisen and has passed away. And it was about the eight day, because I would be there only for 10 days. And on the about the eighth day, he at the night, the night sermon. It was from seven to eight, and he was saying contemplating arising and passing away first, without even contemplating Mind and Matter, your wrong view, your deity, would not even be shaken in the least bit. He was saying, and I knew, because there were only about 10 or 12 villages at night time, 20 would be the most when the teachers came back during school holidays. And I knew he meant it for me. And I was thinking, Oh, in those days, we could only light one small candle near the near the venerable It was everything was dark. The little Hall was dark. And I always would sit at the back of the little Hall, and there were, there would be only about 1220, would be the most. And I, I was thinking, Oh, now he is he. He is saying this for me. And so what do I do to get rid of this wrong view of self deity, it was close to the Venerables were saying, you are only contemplating arising and passing away, and your Sekai deity will not be shaken off, even in the list. Least bit he was saying, So, what do I do now I was thinking. And even before my thought had stopped, he was saying. I was thinking, What do I do? And he was giving me the answer to get rid of sekaya deity, go back to contemplating Mind and Matter first, only with contemplation of mind and matter, your view, your wrong view of selfsaid, will be dispelled. So the next day, from the next day onward, I was and I heard my other friend, dharma sister, teaching another man that at first it is the visible object, and then it is the hand moving, which is the air element, and I followed the same way. So I was the only one seat having lunch at the foot of the venerable small place. And I had all the time, and I could eat at leisure. I could eat contemplating. And then when I first looked at the plate of rice, I would contemplate, this is the looking at the what is conventionally, what is conceptually, the rice. I would say this is the visible object, and this is the eye base. The eye base and visible object are matter. The eye consciousness is mind. Oh, this is mind and matter. I would do it very slowly with every step. And then I would take the hand forward, forward toward the spoon. And then I would contemplate the hand moving. This is the air element. This is the air element. And the spoon, the spoon hardness. And when I touch the spoon, this is hardness. Hardness is matter and the hand base. The hand base the body base, we call it the body base is matter. So the hardness and body base are causes. Hardness and body base are matter and cognizing the hardness, which is the body consciousness is mind. This is Mind and Matter. And then I take the full spoon back to the mouth. Again I was contemplating. The hand is moving toward the mouth. So this is the element is matter. The hardness is matter. And cognizing. Hardness is the mind, a body consciousness, mind. This is Mind and so on. And then, as I chew the food, the tongue base and the tongue base and the tongue base, what is that? Te taste, taste, the taste in English, sorry, taste and tongue base are matter, matter is not capable of knowing. And when this matter, taste which is not capable of knowing, comes into contact with the tongue base, again, which is not capable of knowing. So that which is not capable of knowing is matter. Therefore the tongue base is matter. The taste is matter. But when this taste which is not capable of knowing comes into contact with the tongue base, tongue base and taste that which are not capable of knowing come into contact. There arises the tongue consciousness, which cognizes taste, and that which cognizes taste is mind, and the two, the other two, are matter, or this is Mind and Matter, not I eating, and then you swallow it, and this mind matter passes away, and another mind matter arises, bringing the hand toward the ends we contemplate the same way.
Host 44:46
And this was your first meditative experience. Very much. So, yeah, so it sounds like it was a very deep experience to have as a first taste.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 44:53
Yeah, very deep. But the shortest way how? So, history, yeah. Well.
Host 44:59
What do you mean the shortest way?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 45:04
The shortest way to understanding, I should say, because most, most other friends that I have come across, they don't go into such details in contemplating the ultimate realities. This is the most you can be, the nearest you can be toward understanding the ultimate realities, the MO go it's the Buddha's way, but taught to us by the Mogok Sayadaw and then by my first master, because this is understanding, contemplating mind and matter in this way. This is, this is your Nama, Rupa, Ricci, Iranian knowledge of discerning mind and matter even then the Buddha says that is, this is not insight yet, understanding Mind and Matter is not even insight knowledge yet. And after contemplating Mind and Matter, and when you have swallowed down the mind and matter that cognized taste, it passes away. It has passed away only then and then, if one passes away, the cognition the mind matter cognizing. This has passed away, another mind matter arises. The hand, the air element, taking the what is conventionally the hand toward the spoon. One passes away, another arising. Only then insight begins. The Buddha says, and this is you go in intricate steps, in in, in small steps, but this is the nearest you can be toward understanding and practicing.
Host 46:56
Why do you think that is? Why? Why do you suggest that this is that this methodology is, is the shortcut you can say to?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 47:06
Yes, because, though it is slow, you are you are going, you are contemplating at a very slow pace. But this is the most you can be toward this knowledge of understanding mind and matter. Now, marupa, Prachi, Dhana and then understanding causes, Bucha, the body. Base and the element are matter. These two matter are causes and cognition cognizing. This matter is the body consciousness. Is the result. This is the you go in slow steps, but you reach very far with with this small step, your knowledge opens up. You, you are open. You. You see this knowledge, you understand this knowledge, you contemplate this knowledge. So though it is small, though it is only a small step, but it reaches far in your understanding of the crucial steps in your insight knowledge, and after that, when he, when he said, You have to contemplate mind and matter. Without contemplating Mind and Matter, your wrong view of self will not be dispelled, because what you are contemplating will be on hands, feet, conceptual objects, which which are not the ultimate realities. The ultimate for instance, conceptual objects. You say, this is a spoon, and then a Burmese will not understand it. You will say, This is rice, and then a Burmese will not understand it. So also, when the Burmese say, Bring me a spoon, in reality, he is asking you to bring her a spoon, and because you don't understand it, what if she, if she comes back, bring me a bowl, a cup of water. This is how the concepts cannot, cannot be actually, put to actual to the actual practice.
Host 49:20
The difference of concepts and actual reality, ultimate reality.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 49:23
Call it Tamil and the Western the English speaking people say it is rice, but then this is sound only the the Burmese, the mill, the Burmese people will not understand when you say, Bring me a bowl of rice. Or when, when the when the Burmese say, I want Tamil. Jen, so, these are concepts, but give the baby my this is all one of the many examples. My great first master you used to give, for instance, give the baby a. Piece of chili, the baby chews it, and he he wails out loud, and he start crying, not stopping. Ask him, why are you crying, baby? And he will not be able to give you the answer. But it is evident This is the spicy taste that he has the chili that he has chewed that makes him cry so hard. Therefore, in the spicy taste alone, there are no words. A child tastes it, it's spicy. A dog tastes it, it's spicy. A king a Westerner tastes it, it's spicy. An Indian who are fond of spicy food, he tastes it, it's spicy. Therefore, in spicy taste alone, there is no word at all, only the essence. This essence, which is spicy taste is true to all. It is spicy taste to a queen, it is spicy taste to a beggar. It is spicy taste to a dog. This spicy taste, which is true to all, is the ultimate reality, calling it chili, or US Burmese people saying it is nayoti. These are all concepts, and when you contemplate, you have to understand this ultimate reality. Contemplate on the ultimate reality. For instance, you stand, you stand, and then it is the supportive air element that helps you able to stand upright in the Buddha's language, it is the air, why you're this is the Buddha's language, why you're the Pali language, spoken since the Buddha's time and still being used in Buddhist countries where Venerables learn, have learned this Pali language, why you're the element, therefore this way yo, which is true to all, is the paramatta. The paramatta The ultimate reality, true to all. But even then, this paramatta is only the paramatta in the sense that we, those speaking the Buddha's language, understand that this is supportive air element, but the English call it the supportive air element. And because of this supportive air element, we are able to stand upright. Or the as Buddhist, we call it, how come wayo. But then this is, these are names concepts based on the ultimate reality, the paramatta, the supportive element, the way your in the Buddha's Pali language, or talking way, or in our Burmese language this, these are the words describing the ultimate reality.
Host 53:02
So it sounds like a large part of moe lay Sayadaw teachings as followed by his own teacher, Mogok Sayadaw was helping the yogi be able to separate between the concept and the ultimate reality.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 53:15
Yes, this is contemplation. Mogok Sayadaw is based on the great Mogok Sayadaw teachings and taught to us by our first master, the MOE le ciad,
Host 53:25
using a lot of dependent origination.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 53:29
Yes, yes, dependent origination. I hope we, we might one day have the time to talk about this dependent origination. Yes, yeah. I would love to do it.
Host 53:40
Yeah. So this. So after your first course with Moe le Sayadaw, you had had a very powerful introduction to being able to contemplate using his specific instructions to you based on what he was seeing in your practice and checking in, you were able to get these instructions that allowed you to distinguish between the concepts which you'd always seen things in life and the old, and just entry into the ultimate reality of how things actually were, and how did this affect you once the course ended, once you went back to life.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 54:11
And when I went home, and when I reported to the master that I have made the 10 days, and he said, even when you are home, continue with the practice. So but, of course, many times I would be forgetful, but many times I would remember to do it too. Was
Host 54:32
this like a formal meditation practice he was recommending, or just an awareness or contemplation to have throughout life
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 54:38
there's in everything for in of course, many times there would be anger, and then, and then, oh, the anger has passed away. This is, this is your meditation, right?
Host 54:50
So when the anger would come, then you would observe the concept of anger going into the ultimate reality of the manifestation. So it wasn't so much a formal. Sitting practice.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 55:02
It was more of in those early days because the house was quiet. This my little boys would be at school, I would come back from the clinic, and in the afternoon, I would do about there. It was only half an hour, the first time I met Master. After that, these days they do a one hour session and and and the thing is to be, I can't say to be mindful, because I'm not. I don't tend to be mindful at all times, sure, but when I when I remember to be mindful. And then during meals, of course, I will. I was having lunch alone after clinic, and then having meal. And then sometimes I would enjoy and enjoy the lunch. And then I would it, you can apply it from every aspect. So, this is somina. Saw, we done pleasant feeling. You enjoy the lunch. This is somana. Saw, we don't know. Or, then sometimes our mind and matter, okay, tongue, base and taste are matter. The tongue consciousness is mind. You swallow it, okay, the mind matter concerning tongue, base, it has arisen, it has passed away. Or, then I hold the spoon. Or, this is hardness. Hardness and body based Armada. Cognizing hardness is Mind Body, body consciousness is mind and so on. So you continue to follow those instructions. Yes, whenever I remember to these days, I'm my my attention is much on the translations. But previously, previously, I was more and more into contemplating and anger also would benefit me a lot. I many times I would be, at times I would be angry. And then all anger has passed away. And this is, this is very good feeling. And then, and then the pleasant feeling, the pleasant feeling, has passed away. And after I had done done it for I had done it for years, I won't go into all the details. This thing, this space is matter, this object is matter. The two come into contact. This this consciousness. I wouldn't go into all the details. I would concentrate on only one i i I might do all, or I might do one, so.
Host 57:23
Right, depending on the mindset and
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 57:26
how I felt like doing it like this is pleasant feeling. Or I would say, in Pali, the swamina. I don't know Pali very much, but those common things, I would say, Oh, this is somina savidana. The somina savidana has passed away. Or, anger. Anger benefits me also a lot. The anger has arisen now, the anger has passed away. The anger has passed away now there is, there is neutral feeling in different feelings.
Host 57:52
Your husband must have been pleased for that practice.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 57:58
He practices more, much more than I do, because he was at the front lines, and he was a very good commander in the military, yes, yes, yes. He was a very good commander. And in the villages, when, whenever he would go and the villagers would say, Oh, this is a BAS patelli and a pass regiment, meaning, this is the commanders. So we don't they just hide their weapons. And he wouldn't. He would be there was this, what do you call kerosene lamp, or at night he would be at the primary school. There was this kerosene lamp so bright, and his his surgeon, he was a chin Christian, and he was so worried, what if they it is so dark outside, what they if they aim straight at him, and what do I do? He would be thinking and then, but the villagers, they would they would just come hide their weapons, and they would come listen so when wherever he went, in the near the kitchen and San boundaries, things would be peaceful.
Host 59:01
And those were not peaceful times or peaceful areas in general.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 59:05
And then, because they had to stay in houses. So he would, he would go to one of the old ladies house, and he and in the morning, he, as soon as he woke up, he would meditate.
Host 59:17
So after you took your course, he then became involved with Moe le Sayadaw, yes, yes, yes, very much. So he became a Dhamma family, yes.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 59:24
And the villagers, they would be Abbas meditating. The house would be quiet. And a BA means big uncle. They would call him a BA is meditating.
Host 59:36
So he would meditate in the morning and then go out to his military post, and yeah,
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 59:40
At night. And when they were in villages, they would, they would have this, this kerosene lamb. And the even from nearby villages, they would come listen to the Dharma talk by about,
Host 59:54
Oh, he would, your husband would give dharma.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 59:56
He was very fond of doing this. And the villager. When the Buddhist villagers, even from nearby villages, they would come, and they would come to listen to him.
Host 1:00:03
Yeah, how interesting. So you carried on taking courses from Moe Sayadaw and learning from him, and developing, I imagine, over the years.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:00:13
And then one, one time we we invited the venerable moe seeado, but we couldn't go to the village. We could go only as far as mapay, the nearest small town. It was, it was all those ticks, tick cutting season, and we went all only as far as mapay. And we, we had Dharma talk given by the MOE siyado and APA sent some trucks to those villages to come and join the retreat.
Host 1:00:42
Yes, he sent military trucks to pick up the villagers.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:00:46
In those days, we had track from the from the construction, all right? Construction ministry, those old, rundown tracks like this.
Host 1:00:55
And eventually, you brought him to Yangon for a course, right?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:01:00
Yes, many times, and it was my sister and my brother in law who who donated this place in tent Mai Baku. But the venerable is no more, and we have got other masters.
Host 1:01:11
Right. My memory serves me right. When we talked about this before, you had mentioned that, because you you and your husband were learning from him, you wanted to bring him to Yangon to expose him to more people to learn his Dhamma and his teachings. And so I think you said that it was your home, or your family's home, where during Water Festival.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:01:30
So the first time, because I knew that my master was someone definitely not ordinary, so I I just brought him, brought him. And because there was no, no one to come listen to the Dharma talk in those in those first days, so during the Water Festival days, I would go to all the neighbors houses, and would, would would ask them to come listen. And then the when it was a very small group in in those first days.
Host 1:02:06
So we should say Water Festival is the new year where there's several.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:02:12
And then I, when I, when I got back, when I got back, I think I was thinking about it the whole time. What do I do to make people know master and hear his very beneficial Dharma talks? And then I then I realized I had to write some articles. So I wrote articles on my master. And after the magazine came out.
Host 1:02:43
This is like a Buddhist magazine.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:02:47
In Burmese. It was tamayoso, and then the editor was U San lui, who was born a Muslim, and then because he met a Christian girlfriend, he was thinking about becoming Christian, and finally he became a Buddhist. Okay, so he was the editor. And then, from the it was the first, the early magazine, and when my my article was there, and people knew it. And the second time I brought master to my family, my parents place again. And then this time, the people had read this, these articles, and it was a very crowded place.
Host 1:03:31
So the first time you brought him to give these sermons, New Year, and no one came this great master from the forest.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:03:41
I was satisfied, because there were some people listening to master, and I was very happy.
Host 1:03:46
But then the second year after you got the news out, it was a very crowded place, and so you actually had the course in your parents' home.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:03:55
Yes, there were three houses, the front house, my mom's place. The second house, because I was in the mountains, I didn't live at home. And this the middle house, my sister's place, and she had two houses away. She had a new, big, new house. And the third house was my brother's place, my childhood home, and then my one of my neighbors who had recently built a house. She donated the place. So it was my family compound with all the. Yes, so it was not very comfortable. There were not enough toilets, not enough bathrooms, but, but I didn't complain, because it was, Do you realize that master was someone real extraordinary.
Host 1:04:43
How long was the meditation course? And what type of people attended because
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:04:49
Here it was seven at a seven days retreat. they had read my articles.
Host 1:04:54
So all people from Yangon or from all over, or what types of people.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:04:58
The first time? Because. Uh, I realized that I had to write some articles. So for the second retreat, there were, there were people having read my articles, and those who had read this, they knew, because when they read my articles, this is, this is these teachings are from someone who knew, who really knew, and they understood it.
Host 1:05:25
They understood he was authentic.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:05:27
So it was a very crowded place, I see, yeah, but it was very beautiful. Oh, in the afternoons, all the yogis, where they were walking, meditating or just sitting and relaxing, because there was no fixed pattern, you can't sit or you, you have to do something, this thing. So those people were just taking some straw, a quiet and lovely.
Host 1:05:50
Right. And I think you had one very special guest that you told me about before.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:05:53
Yes, it was the it was the third or the fourth time, and then, and then they were those intelligence people, and then, and then my husband got into trouble.
Host 1:06:07
Oh, what year was this? I have to look so she wasn't. This was a year. She was not under house arrest, I guess so she was, she was in.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:06:17
Maybe under house arrest, but she did.
Host 1:06:19
She had some access. I'm not very sure about that, right, right, right. So you had, you had Aung San Suu Kyi in your home.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:06:27
In law, from two sides, oh, yeah, with her family. No, here, my sister in law, my husband's sister, married Aung San Suu Kyi, first cousin. So sorry, I can I say this? So we are in laws from two sides.
Host 1:06:44
Right, right, right, yeah, so that must have been exciting.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:06:49
getting promoted. Oh, but now it's a fun thing.
Host 1:06:56
And how did, how did she take to the teachings? Do you remember?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:07:01
Yes, but after the second or the third day he could, she couldn't come.
Host 1:07:07
Right? And if I think,
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:07:09
Then my brother in law, whose father was assassinated a lot, the Bucha Aung San brother, was assassinated along with BuJo Aung San on Mother's Day. So he, he came my my brother in law and his family brought Moe Sayadaw to that house for salmon each time that theadore Aung San spread across the road. Aung San, Suu Kyi, please, right.
Host 1:07:35
So you're connected with all of these, these other kind of great Burmese families. And I believe, if memory serves me right, that your family home was next door to the Goenkaji family home as well. Is that correct?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:07:47
This was when we moved. My parents bought this new place, but actually my grandfather was for a short time the premier, which was, which is now the eye hospital on kandoji on the near the kandoji Lake. Previously it was the Netherland bank. Netherland banks house, so my and my parents grandparents place was between what is now the Eye Hospital, which was previously the Netherland banks. It used to be a very beautiful place on the hill with all green grass and everything. And the other side this was previously was the Rakhine family U Joe's place, which is now the Nepalese embassy in Sweden, was my grandparents place where, where all our cousins were born except me.
Host 1:08:39
Right, right? In the Goenka family was also our current
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:08:43
house. Oh, this is your current house, right? But they have moved away also, right?
Host 1:08:47
So you had a little bit of when you at some period in your life you were growing up when they were next door, or that
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:08:55
I was growing up most of our lives. We grew grew up in our grandparents place near the kandoji Lake.
Host 1:09:02
Okay, that was the other place, yes, right, right, right.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:09:05
So dad was the great grandson, was of Burma's last crown prince who was assassinated. Then, what was the name Kanal Prince canal,
Host 1:09:14
Right? So a lot of connections there, yeah,
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:09:15
But I we don't think very much about those things and those connections we got. We went very poor when our or our lands and our all our crops were taken over. We went very poor.
Host 1:09:32
This was after 62 Yeah, right, right. Yeah, sure. So you would take in Moe Sayadaw into Yangon to expose him to more people there. The first time, it was hard to get the word out. The second and third time, the courses were totally full. People were wanting to come, even though it wasn't your family compound. What happened then after this?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:09:52
And then we, we, we found that our place was not big enough, because after that, there. Are 1000s of meditators. Oh, wow, during the water festivals days. And my my brother in law, bless him, he's so good hearted. So even though he didn't have much money at the time, he bought this place at San maingon. Ba, go 10 mile. Ba go and started this moon. La,
Host 1:10:17
So your whole family was really involved and invested.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:10:22
And then the first the pioneers each month there was, there would be a meeting at my parents place in my sister's house, and then we would donate about 1000 each one of us. And with this small collection, and with a big chunk from my brother in law, we gradually built small buildings at this ba gose mango,
Host 1:10:44
Right? And, and so then that was his first monastery. That was moe sayadaws First monastery, is that correct? Yeah, right.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:10:51
And after, after that, I think we have had some, some talks about my master knowing what I was practicing if it was on the right track, and he would bring me back onto the right track. And then my master by the time, I had had hundreds, I can't I can't even count these. I had had hundreds of instances of master reading people's mind. And then that night, it was Christmas, and Christmas, and as as usual, my husband, he we would, we would be, we would get invited by churches, and we would have a very lovely Christmas for our chin Christian families, Christian fish, Christian families at the regiment. And then he would sing, he would play the guitar and so on. And his friends, young friends across town, would come, and they would be playing the guitar or the BA and so on. And that night, the Baptist Church invited us, invited us. And then on the next night, we went to Master's night sermon. And the master, this was the only time he did this, finishing the salmon. He went out, and having taken a step outside, he came back into the small Dharma Hall. He stood in front of us, and he said, when the time comes when the kamma is done. You pass away. Nothing can be done. Nothing can be done. Nothing can stop this. Because by that by that time, I have had hundreds of instances knowing my master and I was mentally in mind. I was thinking, oh, somebody is going to die. And went home, and that night, we didn't have phone direct phone lines. In those days, we didn't have electricity at night, and then the wireless communication, or do I call that? And in the middle of the night, the little apparatus rang and it said that was in critical condition, and then he died. So this is one of the instances that come up now to tell you of masters, my experiences with Master, knowing all these things, yeah, and oh. Then, then after that, we were posted to Yangon. We were posted to Yangon. And again, it was Christmas time, and my sister at that 10 mile ba go retreat, he was she was holding a small retreat. She was holding a small retreat, only with a close circle of our people, of our people. And then the venerable was not there. He had just left after the December retreat. And when he had crossed the chindrin River from Moe you are, to the copper mine, we used to, we used to stay the night at the copper mine. The Yugoslav people had left that very lovely place, and we always had a night stop there. And the master from Joah, Jason, down that copper mine, across the Chunn river from Moe, he called us, and this was the first time he called called us and my sister, I was so happy. Actually, he was hinting that something bad was about to happen. We didn't know. This was the only time he called us and was hearing venerable on the phone. We were all laughing, smiling, and then during the. Small retreat in 10 miles ago, there was this attendant monk, and he was narrating this story in Moe le, we have this custom all his assistants when they want to talk about, talk about this, Nama, Rupa, or a nature adoka, whatever he they would whenever they would narrate stories, it would always be the stories Master would always use and never out of that scope, out of that sphere. But that day, the attendant monk, the assistant monk, was narrating this story, if you are destined to die with this thing you can't escape it you are seeing, is my English Correct? Yes, yes, yes. And then he was saying, at a remote jungle village, there was this man and the astrologer predicted that you would die of Tiger bite. And from that day on, he never went out of his house. And in they had discussed them of having their toilets, having a hole on the floor and so like that. So he didn't go out. And after some time, the villagers came back and shouted to him, the tiger which was supposed to have killed you, is dead now. You can come down now. And so he came down, and there was this dead Tiger. And he he kicked the tiger, are you the tiger that was that was supposed to have killed me? And he kicked the tiger, and his foot scraped the incisor of the incisor teeth of the tiger, and then it got infected, and nothing could cure this infection, and finally he succumbed to this wound. And he was saying, and the monk, and he was saying, winding up the story. The monk was saying, if this is the only time, the first time, the last time, he said this, because they would not go out of the master's stories, right? And if you are destined, if you have been destined, to die this way, you cannot escape it at all. And then, because my husband would have to go back to Office, the next day, we went home, and my, my eldest niece, nephew, had already died of and then this was my second nephew and that and so this time also he he asked his mom's permission, my sister's permission, only this one night, I'll come back to the retreat for the retreat, he said. And that night he along with his friend and with his girlfriend, the they said, some, some other young people chased their car, or there were rumors going around, and some, some children of well known people like that. And the the car crashed against a tree, and they all died. And the assistant monk, and he after, after some days or some months, and when we can, went back to the 10 mile one center, and we were talking about that, and the monk said, I don't know why I was saying that story now, why I was telling that story, it never crossed my mind I would be telling that story so. So from my hundreds of experiences with Master, I knew it was master making him hint that this was about to happen.
Host 1:19:06
Right, right? So your your experiences with him, you saw this clairvoyance he had, not only in being able to read meditators minds or knowing what the future is, also knowing what their their practice was going like, and being able to subscribe different kinds of meditative techniques, depending on who the yogi was, and you and your family were the ones that literally brought this great monk out of the jungle, out of the forest, into the city, and now monli Sayadaw, mon Lin tradition is pretty well known. There's various meditation monasteries throughout the country, and his he was able to expand upon his mission and reach many people after those, those initial attempts at the thin Jan, the Burmese New Year courses you heard about
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:19:47
then, sorry, you heard about that, about, about what the thin Jan retreat?
Host 1:19:52
Well, You the ones you mentioned. Yeah, you mentioned the early retreats.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:19:55
He was in America too, but then he we could, could take him on. Once before he passed away.
Host 1:20:01
Right, right? So you took him from the jungle into greater contact with people, and maybe 1000s, hundreds of 1000s, hundreds, hundreds of 1000s benefited from his teachings.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:20:12
When, when we were posted to the chin hills, we took him to the chin Hills too, but the first time it was at my, our office building. The second time it was at the monastery. And then the third time, we didn't invite much, but the venerable was there, and that they were chin Buddhists. So, so hearing that the venerable Was there some of the old ladies, they didn't understand it. But then they say they want to gain some good results. So they came. They didn't understand anything.
Host 1:20:49
So then you were also his,
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:20:53
His retreats there they gave always, it's only vegan, vegetarian
Host 1:20:58
food. Oh, he was a lifelong vegetarian.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:21:01
Yeah, that's fine. After this, I think they are. They have gone vegan.
Host 1:21:05
Okay, that's uncommon in this country,
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:21:07
Yes. But then Moe is a vegan, vegetarian, and then we have others too. Not much, no, not many.
Host 1:21:17
Right? You all say it obviously.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:21:21
He didn't, he doesn't make his followers follow.
Host 1:21:25
Oh, you mean moe sayada preached it as as one of his teachings?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:21:29
Yes, the center is always vegan vegetation.
Host 1:21:33
Oh, it's always been that way. Yes, the retreat also. Oh, interesting, interesting. And does that go into his teachings as well, the idea of vegetarianism.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:21:42
And then there might be some others, but we don't hear of many, huh?
Host 1:21:45
But did Mone Sayadaw talk about vegetarianism as part of his teaching, or was that just something that happened to happen that there he
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:21:52
Talks about compassion and the and the sufferings of animals. He doesn't like it. He's He's many times he would scold us. He might sound angry, but he's he doesn't like animals suffering. And he would describe how the animals fear, how they how they beg to be pardoned. And yes,
Host 1:22:16
Right, right. And so then, once he got to Yangon, and once these retreats became more popular, your family purchased this land in Ba go, I think you said for the first meditation monastery where he can hold retreats in a proper way. What then happened after that, to help expand the moonli mission?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:22:34
By that time, there were many rich people coming, so we didn't we, we just, we just didn't have, we didn't just have to do much, because people were donating, and buildings came, and then then many generals or high professionals and very rich people,
Host 1:22:57
They also came. He became popular in that crowd. Oh, they want
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:23:01
to be near the venerable all the time. We were at the back.
Host 1:23:04
Oh, you were kind of pushed away at that point, yeah, but,
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:23:07
but they knew we are the pioneers, so they gave us a they hold a good place for us. But then they wanted to be near the venerable.
Host 1:23:17
Why do you think he became so popular with that crowd and gained that following
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:23:22
many came to believe that he was actually someone not ordinary. So they had their own experiences too. I had hundreds of experiences, hundreds. I have even lost count. So they knew they have their own experiences too. And then at one time there were, there were about many good things, too, many good things, too. But then what comes to mind now there was, there was this other thing. And then there was this colonel's wife was there, and she was very fond. She loved her venerable very much. And then another monk, another assistant monk, was giving the Dharma talk at the Dharma Hall. And the venerable, with his other monks, was in his, in his, in his building. And whenever she came, she she wanted to be near the venerable all the time. And he was, he was he was saying all the things that she felt like saying the venerable for the first time, go listen to the Dharma talk. Go go to the Dharma Hall. And he didn't seem to notice it. And then he was, he was saying all that he wanted to say. He was very fond of the venerable the second time, also the venerable after after a few minutes, the venerable said, Go listen to the Dharma talk. And then she kept on. After a few minutes, 10 or 12 or 13 minutes, the venerable, the voice was a little. Harsh this time, and I was starting to feel afraid, because I understood the venerable and the venerable. It was rather harsh. And he didn't get it then too. And the fourth time, the Seattle actually shouted at her, go to the Dharma or listen to the Dharma talk. And at that time, the monk again, this time. This is the first time they said, this other monk, not the first other monk. This is the second, another monk, another second monk, or second another monk. He was saying, this is, this was the only time he was saying, when the mother died, he wept, and he wept, and he thought he would never be happy again, and he thought he that he was the saddest man in the world. There would be no other person sadder than he was. But now look at me. I am laughing. I am telling you jokes. So it all, it all passed away. And I noticed that being familiar with all the Dharma talks the venerable used to give all the Dharma talks his assistants gave, using the example of the great venerable. So this time again, like the man on the hut who never came down, afraid of the Tiger this time again, I noticed it, but didn't know who it was for. I noticed it. And the next Moe, oh, it was roots from South Africa. And there was saya Li kemacharya of the BA wa center. She's now back in her native Italy,
Host 1:26:46
right? She was also a follower of Yes, yes, yes,
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:26:49
Yes. When Sayadaw was there, and then saya Li kemachari And Ruth, it was their first time to moe, and they were there, and I was translating for them the next morning in Sayadaw building, and then venerable stopped it. Go have your break. I haven't had breakfast. I was late for breakfast, and go have your breakfast. And that time, my sister came to me in a hurry and said, Oh, mum has passed away. Let's go. Let's go. So the the talk, the last given, the last night was, was about given, was hinting at mom would be passing away. So these are the passing aways that come to mind and I'm talking to you. But there are many good things. There are many funny things, and there are many things he had venerable would scold us, or sometimes him good things. So I have had hundreds. So I have talked, I have stopped where I did about venerable knowing, the practices, or whether what you are doing is right or wrong. And now this, this is all about the venerable knowing things we never would know in advance, right,
Host 1:28:06
right? So you would have this early wish in your life to want to be in contact with a saintly person. Want to be in contact with a fool, our haunt, someone who was liberated, and then you got to be in the audience with someone very special indeed, yes, yes. And for someone who's never had that experience, how would you describe it? What was it like being in proximity with someone like that?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:28:29
Because the first time, it was about my mind and matter, because mind would be, mind would be always wandering off. And then I could, I could concentrate at the nasal tip for four or five times or 10 times at the most. And the first time he said, those with mind going off, those are with intellectual or whatever that is, temperament, they have to do the arising and passing away. So since, since that very first time, I had always appreciated so this was the first time I was even near someone so extraordinary,
Host 1:29:17
if foreigners wanted to learn more about Moe le Saya, does teachings or writings or practice? Is there a way to do that?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:29:26
I think because this is what happened. I had those piles of magazine stamayoso in in where I had written about Venerable stama talks, and then, after the Venerables popularity had grown, there were many monks at Mong, and they were late comers. It was after about 10 years, or more than that, after I had met the venerable so I took all the magazines and placed them. At Sima, where, where the monks, many of the monks, were staying and and when, again, I remember to go check the magazines. All were in pieces. So I I have lost all the articles I have written. But there is a friend who we met when he was also a captain, and who we met when we were posted to Bong Ng, and he was posted to Pung Taung. And if I could find some of the articles, I might be able to translate these. If there is anyone wanting to read more about the great, Venerable, sure, but the super normal things venerable didn't like me writing these. So it's more about the teachings. Which are better to for which will which would be more beneficial for the audience, right?
Host 1:30:55
Was his teachings kind of purely in the field of Mogok Sayadaw, or were there any differences or innovations he had that were distinct from how Mogok taught
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:31:06
he, he's he would stick to the Mogok method. But if there were examples like, like, examples that that were not, not of much significance to be to deviate, not, not to do, not, from the Mogok Siya dos original teachings. You would use some examples. So we might illustrate something, for example, like the chili, the chili the child, the child tun and then salt. Like the concept, for instance, give, give, give some grains of salt. And the Indians will call it Nimar, or he used some Indian word nimk, I think, or, and we Burmese say it is, it is SA and the English and but then the taste, which is the ultimate reality, which is salty, it is true to all.
Host 1:32:04
So that was how he was able to illustrate the difference between concept and ultimate reality.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:32:07
Very lovely examples he would give, right?
Host 1:32:11
And so that the examples he gave might have been different than what Mogok Sayadaw would give, but the type of teachings were completely in line.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:32:19
Yes, the Mogok Sayadaw would stick mainly to the Pali, the teachings, the methods our master, much as he was devoted to and followed strictly followed, the great, Venerables, original teachings. The examples he gave were sometimes funny, sometimes very witty. He was very witty.
Host 1:32:44
So Mogok meditation today, it's largely considered the most widely followed meditation method in Myanmar, for foreigners who might not know the method because it hasn't been exported as some of the other methods have. Could you describe the Mogok method in a nutshell, for someone who really doesn't know anything about
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:33:02
it, the venerable Mugu sayado, like the Mong Lea Sayadaw, followed this great master. So it's mainly based on the ultimate realities, because when we say it's gold or silver or diamond, then we are greatly deviated from the ultimate realities, which is hardness, which is the visible object, four elements, which is hot or cold. So the great, Venerable teachings are mainly based on the ultimate realities, and the inside stages and the examples he gave are beyond these. Also, I could say much more beyond these. Also, like the seven javanas, the impulses. I like the seven javanas Very much. You can find it on my meditation, Myanmar, yes, the seven javanas. I like I because I like it so much. It was one of the one. It was one of the translations I made, some of the translations I made.
Host 1:34:09
And how would mo Gox Sayadaw guide meditators towards the realization of this ultimate reality?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:34:17
The thing is, the thing is, I I'm not even sure I should say this. There are many who can recite what they hear, or like in our case, they will. Whenever the master would ask, is it man, or is it mind and matter, they would say, This is Mind and Matter. Or they would say, Yes, this is so venerable and things like that. But it is not my level of knowing. Who can know whether they they really grasp it, grasp it in their wisdom or inside. Right knowledge, or in level of knowledge, it is only the great arahans with the only within the scope of the great arahans Who know what others don't know, but superficially, like like all others, whenever the venerable would say, is it mind matter? Or is it man? Is it Mind Matters, all would shout in unison, but only the venerable would know. Out of the 1000s, there is no one who really have penetrative knowledge, or there is only one who has this penetrative knowledge,
Host 1:35:34
Right? And what kind of guidance would the venerable give for the yogi who was trying to have this penetrable knowledge, but was still in the process of doing so. Joah,
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:35:45
if I have to say this, the venerable, from my experience of being near the venerable, the venerable knows, oh, they will only gain kusala kamma, and in this life, I will give them what kusala, Kamma they can gather. So it is not, it is not even the Buddha who can make someone become an arahant, or at least a saw Tapana. It is the past, all the collections they have gained, they have gathered, which makes them otherwise. Those all, all of them in the Buddha's time, they would have become arahans, or at least saw tabana. This is not even, this is what they have collected throughout the Samsara. I This is what I think. But I think I I'm not sure if it is what, what I'm thinking is completely right.
Host 1:36:39
So you felt that the great Sayadaw has moved,
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:36:42
Yes, being having been near this great Sayadaw, these great sayadaws, having been near Great, these great sayadaws, they they will know. They know.
Host 1:36:55
And so they would, then you're suggesting they would mold the extent of their teachings based on the paramis and the karma and the accumulated merits of the students, knowing what they were capable of and not capable of.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:37:10
If they can't do anything about it, they won't. Then, okay, he will just guide them, guide them as much as he can, and they will gain as much as they can gain.
Host 1:37:20
So the instruction that these sayadaws would give to the individual Yogis were largely dependent on what they perceived as their aptitude based on their past karma. Yes, right. So there wasn't one kind of structure.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:37:33
Do we say it's past karma? I I don't know what we could we could say that, but one thing I know is they know that this person will become someone, achieve something I can only guess. I can only guess because venerable will not say, Oh, he will become an arahant, and next morning he will become a suta Pana. Tomorrow morning, he won't be saying these sorts of things. So I can only guess. So they will know, but they won't say it. Oh, look at him. He will become a noble person tomorrow.
Host 1:38:01
Not they would give a different level of instruction to different students depending on what they saw in them.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:38:08
I think it's the instruction for all students, but the level of what they gain varies, I think, like, for instance, when I was when I was not successful concentrating at the nasal tip. He just said, it is to it is to go to Nama, Rupa, echidanyana, first knowledge, discerning Mind and Matter first. He didn't know. He won't say, this is for this woman, this lady, this
Host 1:38:42
but those were individualized instructions based on his knowledge of you. Yes, right, yes, right, yeah. So would it be fair to say there's not one Moe technique or one Moe methodology where students can just come and they all receive the same instruction, but that that instruction is personalized based on the teacher, student relationships.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:39:02
Yes, I think what the teacher sees through his insight wisdom about the student,
Host 1:39:11
right, right, right. So then the MOE le mission expanded. He became very popular with people with money, people with power in the country, who more centers were built, his name became more well known, and then where what happened with you and your family and your practice as as this really took off,
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:39:33
I practiced the same but now that I'm more involved in translations, I'm more into translations. And then I my found my second master, after we have come down from the chin hills, I found my second master, who knew mind on, who knew the practices as well as the Mong Lea Sayadaw and the Mogok Sayadaw. And then his teaching very unique, and I found only in his teachings.
Host 1:40:07
This was after Moe le Sayadaw had passed away, right, right?
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:40:12
And I was very fortunate, because all many of the people who we met in Moe le, and we happened to live in the same nearby, in the same same township, those, those previous, earlier people from Moe le, about 10 of them, we happen to live in the same township. And our second master, the nature Sayadaw, or the pakogu Sayadaw was there near Aung San Suu Kyi space also. Aung San Suu Kyi also became a devotee of our second master here. Aung San Suu Kyi, sorry,
Host 1:40:53
right, right, right. So we're just talking about Paku Sayadaw. We've just started to explore it. But as we're talking I know that you have a Spanish meditator waiting for you, waiting for your translation and your support at Mogok center. Is she there? Yeah. So I think we're gonna have to end on a cliffhanger here. I think we've we've explored some wonderful things about moonlight Sayadaw, and we've also piqued the interest of meditators about some some great things coming up with, uh, that will have to wait until the next visit. Otherwise, we're gonna have to get cut off on a story. And I know you have to be on your way, so that will have to be next. Yes,
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:41:31
it was, it was a nice talk. Nice meeting you. Nice meeting you again. Thank you.
Host 1:41:37
Yeah and it's so great to get this from you. You know, I remember the first time that I met you, and I when I was doing research for the meditators guide, and I had been introduced by mutual friends, I ended up going to your house and interviewing you there. And I remember as I was hearing all these stories, I was writing them down, they were going into the pages of what would become the guide. But I remember thinking, these are the kinds of stories that should be shared with other people. This is such interesting and inspiring information, I really want to be able to find a way to bring more people in to hear this. And when the studio was set up, you were one of the first people that I thought I would really like to have the chance to bring you in to share these stories, to have your voice and these experiences you've had go for other people. So I'm really glad that we got to start here today.
Dr. Jenny Ko Gyi 1:42:22
Uh, today. I'm very happy to thank you.
Host 1:42:37
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