Transcript: Episode #167: Steve Smith, Part 1
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript has been generated using an AI transcription service and has not undergone manual verification by a human reader. Consequently, there may be inaccuracies in the text that do not precisely reflect the speaker's words. This is especially applicable to speakers with pronounced accents, as AI may struggle to accurately interpret and transcribe their speech. Hence, this transcript should not be referenced in any articles or documents without cross-referencing the timestamps to ensure the accuracy of the guest's actual statements.
00:01
He or not annoy him who know he committed he Oh boy, aka hate. Oh, my movie Luca at it carefully he Malou may cakey Kapono Aki coo.
Host 00:33
Many longtime listeners know that our podcast platform was initially focused on interviews about the many spiritual paths that Myanmar offers meditators and monastics. But when the coup hit, we couldn't in good conscience continue to tell those stories, with many monastic sites on fire are occupied by soldiers and the Burmese people living under the military's Reign of Terror. So we expanded our mission to cover a wider range of post coup Myanmar stories. Still, some guests have a unique insight into both the intersection of the spiritual with the worldly, allowing a deeper understanding of both planes. Today's guest squarely fits in that category as you will soon hear. Let's get to that interview now.
Sai 01:12
In a moment of peace, away from the shelling and sniping to soldiers play and laugh in the simplest of things aren't your children longing for sun to shine again?
01:49
He ate my way that are they? Good Yeah. Maybe that is what I saw
Host 02:24
really pleased to be talking to Stephen Smith for this episode of insight Myanmar podcast. Stephen, thanks for joining us.
Steve Smith 02:30
Thank you. Host.
Host 02:31
So you have quite some connections with Myanmar over the years, I think it's fair to say yeah,
Steve Smith 02:37
it's fair to say since 1977,
Host 02:41
right? So when you hear the word Myanmar or Burma, depending on which one uses more often what what what images come to mind what connotations to those words bring to you, as you think of your your life and your spiritual growth,
Steve Smith 02:55
the Mahasi center begonnen Sagaing hills and antiquity and purity of the lineages that seem to have been preserved in Burma up to the time that I was going there, and the power of the practice itself, you know, the how I resonated with the first time I heard Maha C's name mentioned in 1974. At the Naropa Institute, it felt familiar it felt like home. Like where I headed, where I was headed. And two years later, I was in India and able in those years to only go for a week at a time. Until, until the early 80s, when monastic sponsorship allowed, began to allow Western practitioners to come as long as they were stay at the monastery. They were sponsored and taken care of. That was all new to me. I had been living in India for some years. But dropping into Burma was like another you know, another huge plunge into the, the power of this dispensation of the Buddha's dharma. Because it felt to me in the monastic compound and Maha sees that I was in the time of the Buddha and seeing monks and nuns move slowly and seen their their faith, their devotion to Mahasi and the other senior Nyaka side at us, was just profound and inspiring to me, what year was your first visit 1977.
Host 05:08
And tell us a bit about the circumstances of that what brought you out there? What propelled you to go, what you did during that visit, and then impressions of being in the country and around the monastic culture for the first time
Steve Smith 05:20
I had. I had been in India. Graham white, and I had managed the first western teachers retreat at the Thai temple in Bodhgaya. And that was, I think it was a month long retreat. And we, we plan the Western teachers and students, and Graham and I plan to visit the heads of the tradition. So we were planned to go and meet Mahasi in Burma at that time, and that's what we did in March of 1977. We went from Bodhgaya to Calcutta it was called at the time and, and met with Lupin with Deepa Ma, who had spent time well over the years while I was there, and Budaya. And so a group of 12 of us 12 or 14 of us, stopped in Calcutta and met with Deepa MA in her hugely humble apartment, dwelling. And after we spent a week or so there, we went to and met some of her relatives who had also like Deepa Ma. Practice with Mahasi in Rangoon over the years, and so it was from there that we flew into Rangoon Mahasi wasn't there at the at his Mahasi Tatiana Yetta is compound monastic compound. He was in his home village. And so our Burmese hosts arranged for all of us to fly to Mandalay and rent the truck and then a diecut of Mahasi has also met us with her car. And we then we drove way up to Sugan. Is that Mahasi is
Host 07:40
place sacred Yeah, yeah, near near shobo. And we
Steve Smith 07:44
made that trip 12 of us and a two year old child, my daughter, Chandra. Oh, wow. And the moment we drove in to Maha says home village was also similar to my description of what comes to mind when I think of Burma, my first impressions. Like it was going back in time, that the monastic compound and the ordained nuns and monks and lay people it could have been the early centuries and a time of the Buddha 2600 years ago, except for the trucks, you know, a few modern amenities. It just seemed ancient and in powerful and pure. And we drove in right as Mahasi Seidel was giving a Dhamma talk in an open pavilion, open wall pavilion. And as soon as we drove in, he stopped the talk, and clearly asked Burmese disciples to greet us take care of us. So they immediately showed up and did just that they, they saw to our besides to our rooms, and where we can wash and bathe, have a meal of the day meal, and were incredibly kind. And the first emotion I actually felt upon kind of entering that realm was their total faith. Their faith in the Dharma and Mahasi and the teachings in taking care of us their happiness for us. Combination of appreciating, that we would come all the way from this, in their view, a deva realm, meaning the West in America or Europe, to their, you know, the the simplicity of village life in Burma to meet their, their teacher, the great Mahasi, Saito, and the have this desire that we had to, to immerse ourselves in deep Dharma practice and study, understanding. I just felt held by that, by those emotions and by their service in their care. And so humbled by it. It's like, if it wasn't, fruition of what, what faith meant, in the, in the Buddhist psychology, so, we met with Mahasi and paid our respects and Western, the Western teachers presented him with their, with their book or books, and ask questions, and we just had an hour or so, of really lovely introduction, with this incredible figurehead of the Dhamma in in Burma, who I would only come to appreciate more and more as being a leader along with a few of his contemporary colleagues, in bringing the practice the Dhamma practice. So, out of centuries of monastic enclosure to the lay life, making it available to to others through shorter, non purely monastic style retreats, they could come as lay people on practice, for the length of time, that they were able to go back to their, their daily life and return when they could. He had that stature of being a Superman, super Person of the Dharma and really interested in seeing it spread His own, His own faith was so imperative and he, you clearly seem like this. The feeling around him was vastness and void. Just radiating presence and emptiness at the same time. It was indescribable, but very powerful, kind of goosebump energy to be in His presence and in the context of the simple villagers way in Upper Burma. who devoted their lives to to the Buddha and to their teacher and Mahasi. And to caring for the monks and nuns for the teachings. It was the first time I had a sense of what Sangha, the meaning of sangha was the community of monks and nuns lay women, lay men, practitioners, even the young people, they soon found out they were retreats for for kids, really quite young. In later years, Mahasi sees air sight out Pandita in the month, in the new year, month of April, the whole Mahasi center in Rangoon became at later Pandita Rama Wuhan Ditas monastic compound in Rangoon was virtually taken over during a period of time with young nuns and monks seminaries you know, as kids and they would be kids, but they'd also have a pretty deep transmission of how to how to meditate, you know, shorter periods of time for them and then they'd be kids and run around and kind of act like it but then they'd kind of straighten up around the senior nuns and monks. And they would get some study time and then practice time and it was their first entry into the, into the discipline of the Dharma was incredibly inspiring to see at such a young age, young people getting a sense of what it's like to view life and the world and people and each other and themselves through the lens of the Buddhist teachings. So while while I was there that very first time and felt that faith at the mossy home monastery in his home village and sick gum I vowed that if Burma ever opened because this was the week long visa that route allowed tourist visa in the 70s that of Burma ever opened, I would come back in ordain with Mahasi. So it was only another few years. And that came through Burma opened up for meditators sponsored by various monasteries. And whatever. Whatever was ignited when I first heard Mahasi his name at Boulder, Colorado in 1974. You know, six or seven years later came to this fruition here I was. Now in preparation, I actually took the lower Saman era ordination with Tom Pulu saya another great Burmese, senior monk and forcefield of the Dhamma I took the law of ordination with him under the Bodhi tree in Bodhgaya. With a number of my friends and colleagues who were ordained for a short period of time, few days a week, maybe a month that the longest I stayed in the in the robes of the Salman era novice monk with the intention to take the higher ordination once I got into Burma. So I went from but Gaya to Dhaka, Bangladesh stayed with some friends who were worked for NGOs in in Dhaka. And still in robes with a friend of mine who was in robes. We were there for a while. And then we flew into Rangoon went right to the Mahasi I say Tatiana Yeka peaceful place to practice the actor. And right away, we were taken to meet Mahasi Syrah and it was arranged within the next two or three days to take the higher ordination with him. And he was just as I remembered him, this incredible presence, sense of vastness and and yet transparent personality like no sense of self centeredness or self importance or anything but this pure transmission of these liberating teachings that was that was the energetic field that he radiated. And that was his life. So it was it was For the extraordinary ordination, I think we were the last three Westerners. A couple of other I think they were Canadians. And then one other American or European, three or four of us, were the last Western ordinations that Mahasi. arranged and welcomed us into the bhikkhu Sangha before he passed away later that year I'm lucky to have had the youth and the, the, the energy, the varia. And the inspiration, you know, to practice there, because the Western students were just beginning to come and find places to practice in Burma. And the Mahasi center, there was a section for for foreigners that had never been that filled up with particularly young Western foreigners section for women and a section for men. Even after being ordained, we stayed in the same foreigners building as the lay Western men in my case, and similarly with women, the women, lay women would stay where the nuns were practicing. There are plenty of challenges, particularly in the rainy season with food and various kinds of stomach bugs and vulnerability to the kinds of things that our immune system wasn't prepared for. I never got really terribly sick, just the usual kinds of travelers, stomach issues and getting used to not completely unfamiliar food, the food, the food, there are many ways similar to the tropics, subtropics of Hawaii, same fruits and berries and kinds of nutrition. There was a vegetarian table and there was a meat eaters table. In the, in the hall, everyone would follow the schedule, fairly strictly, wake up bell would come at 330 in the morning. And the last sitting ended at 11 at night. So it was expected that one sleep about four hours a night. And the practice itself would would take care of the rest the the repose, deep relaxation of the mindfulness and insight practice. And I found that to be true because of different conditions of weather and food and whatnot. I I'd say sleep time for me was maybe between four and six hours. And at the beginning of the time, there I was. I was practicing with a young nya Casaya Nika senior appointed by Mahasi to be on this console. And maybe there was eight or nine of them at Mutanda was the youngest. And I've found him very personable and friendly It spent time in Sri Lanka, he spoke English quite well, we, we became friends as well, I would help him with his English understanding and read things that he's written and he, in turn, share with me things that he had written in, in his journals or in the Mahasi journal about practice. I liked him a lot, I had a lot of respect for him. And you actually was the first one to inspire me to do the walking meditation. in equal measure, and with equal respect, as a city sitting and walking. It seemed me practicing in the sitting posture for long hours and asked me why I wasn't walking more. And I, I told him at the time, I felt like I could get concentrated and stay mindful, better through sitting than the distractions I experienced in walking. So in his agreeable and personable way, he said, Well how does this sound for just two weeks you you practice, you do the walking as per the schedule. And at the end of the two weeks we'll assess it. And if you still don't connect with it, in a similar way, then you connect with sitting posture, then you don't have to walk. Of course, he knew that I would get hooked, which I did, because I did as I promised, and set an hour would walk an hour sometimes if I sat longer than an hour, hour and a half or two hours, I'd walk longer as well. And and found that I could I could reach those same degrees of concentration Samadhi. In the walking and then the walking, momentum and energy summoned through walking along with them a more fluid and flexible concentration, since it was meditation in motion, those combinations of a fluid concentration and the energetics of mindful movement would carry about to the next sitting till I began to feel the inseparable connection or interconnectedness in in those two and later all four all four postures so I really credit say it out tundra for teaching me the magic and power of the walking meditation he once said just walk until you're a stranger to yourself I didn't ask what he meant at the time, but I took that in and before too long, I discovered what he what he meant in that in the build up of that energetic movement, the very end the fluid concentration just be these sequences of awareness where there is only the.is the elements. The expressive elemental sensations are element of texture and the water element of fluidity and cohesion and the heat element of warm and hot, cool and cold, and the air element of movement, oscillation Viber, vibration and, and support, firmness. And that that I understood what it meant to just walk until one is a stranger to themselves. That is there was no self referencing of the experience I'm experiencing this or surely there will be thoughts. Well, this is this was interesting or I'm feeling tired or hungry or normal thoughts but in practice mode, in moments of really being connected, mindful with the process of, of movement, it became exquisitely clear that it was just the dance of the elements moving along with very lifting, moving, placing, shifting, lifting, moving, placing, shifting, stopping, standing, turning. And it became exquisitely interesting to me to experience the body from within the body in this way, and begin to connect with that experiential, direct reality not filtered through thoughts or our conceptual knowledge. We'll turn around what's a really good Dharma friend in that way and teach it to me of it, sad to learn that he's got sick, pneumonia, and he was allergic to penicillin. And he passed away. I think he was just 47 years old. He would have been, I think, a really prominent teacher for Westerners there in Burma and and in the West, which, which a number of us Westerners felt he would be invited to Europe and America. So after that 1982 period of practicing as a monk, I went to Australia where Joseph Goldstein was teaching a retreat that's still a monk, and with a good monk, friend of mine, who had been the one to accompany me from Bodhgaya to Dhaka to Rangoon the previous year, and at the end of that retreat, that Joseph was teaching at a retreat center near Sydney I disrobed at a Thai temple and came home to the white to be a dad. My daughter was six years old, and spend time with her here in Hawaii. And then, after some months, three or four months she went to be with her mom on the eastern coast of the continent. And I went back to Burma, and this time I ordained with Saito Pandita. Who I began to practice with towards the end of my previous term as a monk and who I had a very immediate and obviously karmically close, connection with upon meeting was like a recognition and where we each recognize each other. My friend who had accompanied me and introduced me to set open dita. most Westerners were assigned to had been assigned to tundra when he was alive. So open data, didn't teach many foreigners, but he was, my friend was working with him. And he was trying to be convincing to say it out with Pandita that I was worthy of practicing with him. And an Pandita held up his hand so that my friend stopped talking and said that he could see the qualities within me that would be useful for practice. And so I felt this recognition and this affirmation felt seen by him immediately. And then in the coming days and weeks and months, I felt like, there was nothing he couldn't see about me. And so it just made me completely relax. And be straightforward and honest about my life and my practice and the ups and downs and the fears and courage and likes and dislikes, and I trusted this person quite quickly, more than I had ever trusted anyone in my life, said openly. And based on that trust and confidence I did, I follow every instruction he gave, you know, and then some because my youth and my energy were were great. So I could easily get into striving, overdoing it, not sleeping enough and, you know, interrupting circadian rhythm, sleep and food and practice. And he'd have to admonish me and tell me, you know, try not to be so concentrated at the mealtimes. We had early morning meal, where we'd go up in a line of over monks and lay laymen and nuns and lay women in another line. As soon as there'd be a pink color on the palm of our hand, when we held it out in the morning light. With that, that pink color represented, it was appropriate and okay for the monastics to take food. Whereas normally take no solid food after 12 o'clock. There was one allowable called Satsuma to use four ingredients of honey and molasses, sesame oil, and one other ingredient. Most of it was awful. A couple of brands that we learned after a while are given to us from open data or other senior monks were quite good. That's an allowable, that means that later in the day, when we haven't eaten, you know, for six or seven or eight hours. So often, eight or nine in the evening, if we were still had the energy for more practice would take this bit of sweet nurturing. So to me too, I appreciate it when oo Pandita would admonish me and told me to get more sleep, because I would sometimes shortened my sleep to you know, two hours or 90 minutes and he'd speak of the importance of, of sleep and food and physical and mental energy and you know, how all these things needed to come together. And the dangers in striving. And he liked very, he really liked energy very and he'd like citta intelligence and he liked the qualities that people had even though they might be different qualities and different people applied to the practice, that they that some of us would discover what we did have and develop those that quality of the His qualities, but he was very good at regulating and modulating. So as to not overcharge, or undercharge our system, he was always looking for balance. I describe sight out open data as someone who looked through the lens of the seven awakening factors, for example, in determining balance, the energizing qualities of precise precision awareness, what's called often called investigation, and then energy itself and the PT or joyous, intrigue, interests that would arise from for example, when I mentioned walking until I'm a complete stranger to myself fascinating, it's like kind of dropping in on a subatomic level, to our system, our physical mental system from in within but to take care, to balance all all the energies and not over not overdo it. As I did, often, in the early years, with with striving to energy beyond its usefulness of working with concentration so I think I've been talking about balancing the energizing factors of the precise discernment of physical mental phenomena sometimes called investigation and the various the energy itself and the intrigue or the joyous interest that all lift the mind and body and give it buoyancy and sustaining energy to balance those with the the calming qualities, tranquillity, concert concentration and equanimity. With mindfulness as the the central core quality of the practice that initiates the awakening factors and balances them matures them brings them to fruition. That's how I saw Pandita. As I realized he was viewing, yogi's and practice through that lens. And later on, when I was being trained by him to teach, I saw that he was credibly talented and resourceful, and creative. Often working with individuals in very different ways according to how he saw them what features you wanted to bring out or what skills they had, you know, natively developed within them. And continue to nurture and cultivate that bring it along. I never saw anyone work that way before our sense. And because of my trust in him and my complete faith and willingness to do whatever he asked. He experimented, experimented with me a lot in the sense that it gives me little resolutions, for example, to take the four foundations of mindfulness that I might resolve to to primarily pay attention to the body The elemental nature of the body for a period of time, hours or days, up to a week. And then followed by going to the next foundation of mindfulness, feeling tone Wadena. The same thing just notice the changing velocity of pleasant, unpleasant and neutral feeling times with regard to the physical stream sensations, the mental stream of thought formations and ideas. Emotions and without kind of zeroing in on, on that realm primarily, and leaving other phenomena in the background, kind of moving along the third chiton upasana, the same similar resolve to watch consciousness itself may be focused attention around the solar plexus area of the body, which is regarded as the seat of the heart, mind, and Buddhist psychology and just observing the citta nature. Right down to the subtlest, most subtle stream of consciousness itself. And finally, Dharma, new persona, where the phenomena that arise out of citta are noticed and known. For example, six cent store awareness could fall under this category of noticing, abiding in the awareness of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking, as they appear in the moment that they appear at that scent store unfiltered by mental commentary just as the phenomena enter that sense store, in the moment of that scene, consciousness, hearing, consciousness sensing consciousness, knowing consciousness, be right there other times he have me do that other kinds of resolve resolves to re experience something I had experienced before, or to experience the Dharma or sila Samadhi Panya that had not yet been experienced. I felt like he was exercising all these spiritual muscles of my system that could be activated, you know, and then just let them form on their own, that they just come together and converge like the different reveal that's at contribute to the river so there's always something that would be offered like that. Those kinds of exercises in addition to in addition to others, and sometimes he would just take me back for whatever his reasons I don't know now, to the simplicity of one hour sit one hour walk be like refreshing to refresh the system and when he began to offer a complimentary practice of the four Brahma viharas unconditional love, wise compassion, empathetic joy, and equanimity, mental equipoise. There was such a sense of completion and fullness complimentary unis. As I others were trained in, in these Brahma viharas or divine abidance. realized how important a teaching tool and fulfillment this would be for for Western Yogi's who often we suffer from unworthiness or outright self hatred and blame. This brought out a whole new element to the mindfulness and insight Vipassana practice. It was clearly a completion. And then to have them intertwined to intertwine the Brahma Vihara practices under deep concentration. To refresh later I read, old Mahasi material, that when we grow tired or experience a lot of pain, it's a time to go into deep Brahma Vihara Samadhi like a jhana level, concentration of loving kindness, or metta, karuna compassion mudita empathetic joy, pika the mental evenness even mindedness. to plunge into those deep concentration, states with object being one of the Brahma viharas to regain buoyancy and fill the areas of weariness or relieve that, the pain or sense of monotony whatever was happening, that it was, it was a way of drinking the nectar of the gods is set open data would often mentioned and then to come out of that, usually all this by pre setting resolve to make a simple resolve to spend so much time in deep concentrative loving kindness, compassion, joy, equanimity and then to come out say in 30 minutes, and then observe the dissolution of that concentrative state the metadata for example, and just watch it dissolve disappear and then with the dissolution of that subtle and strong China consciousness to then begin to observe the sixth and store phenomena as they appeared, sensation sounds, thoughts, images and so forth. And then that's the way he worked with me, you know, for over 30 years, usually, was those combination of practices Brahma Vihara practice and intertwined with insight meditation practice. And I read from Mahasi material that he preferred if one has the ability to use the technique of concentration as a basis or side by side as a complementary complimentary practice to Vipassana. For similar reasons, as I was trained by open data to to refresh or gain, deep rest and relaxation from the malleability and, and profound rest of concentration, and then to emerge at the present termine time 30 minutes or an hour, whatever one resolves for, and observe the minutiae, minutiae of experience, breaking up, dissolving, disappearing with the intention to attune to their a Nietzsche, dukkha anatta nature which are the wisdom, doorways toward liberation, to see things as they are to see things as they truly are, releases our, our grip on reality, our clinging, our attachments and as our system learns this process to, to be just concentrated enough and, and then to observe with this kind of reality, consciousness, this mindful, insightful awareness it's noticing exactly what's happening with the system we're born with this body that's the body has felt from within the body. And this mind as the mind has felt from within consciousness within the mind heart. And to notice what's there and how it's behaving? Set up in detail with describe it this way. You know, what's there, the physical sensations, the thoughts, the sound moments? And how it's behaving? Is it stain it's a disappearing, how is it being experienced? Years later, or over the years, I would often take me to special events. And one of that was the funeral of the of the great swaging side, up in the sky in Hell's swages inside I was the head of the Golden order, which is the lineage that Mahasi and many of his colleagues belong to the golden order. So we went to this affair that dissuasion site I had took great care to outlined the exact procedure of what to do what his after his demise, what would be done with his body and how and what would be done with his remains and how and who, what monks would handle the remains and the chanting the whole procedure was meticulously written down. Because it was said that, when the Mingan Sayadaw passed away, he had done the same thing. Though perhaps not as meticulously written down and spelled out. So the government stepped in as a political move, and put the city and they usurped the wishes of the of the Mingan Saira, one of Maha sees teacher who Narada Sayadaw as he was known Mingo and describes the area where he's from. And so, the swaging said, took even greater lengths to try and preserve his passing. That'd be handled by his by the Sangha, the ordained Sangha. But the same thing happened. I showed up with EU Pandita and set up lacuna who, where I had been doing self practice in the sky and hills, Chihuahua monastery, in northern sky and hills. And it was just a huge look like a movie set. Cameras, TV, videos everywhere. There were helicopters and jets and generals every Were And though some of the most senior monks were allowed to give their speeches interspersed were the 10 top generals. And this was really disconcerting and senior monks were not happy side open teeth, it really didn't say a word. But he was one of the 10 ciders who sat opposite. One of the 10 generals for the ceremony in which the generals then would offer the requisites to the monks their basic needs, toiletries and so to METU, that suitable food for Sangha after hours. And various things that they needed to a part of the ceremony for the funeral of the swaging Syrah were these 10 generals offering to the 10 top swaging site as the requisites open data was right down at the end, and I could see him about 10 meters away and where I was sitting, Nehru said Oh, lacuna. He was sitting opposite general kin yet at the time the intelligence chief and, and the reason I would later be blacklisted from Burma because of my friendship with Aung San su chi. So just at the time, when the generals were bending down to to pick up their offering, and appropriately offer it to attend suasion, Cider House, who Pandita stood up and walked out, walked out of the the tent the that had been set up for about 10,000 People just on the inside and signaled to say to lock in and I and got into the car and driver drove off. He never said a word never said a word. This is at a time where there was a lot of like now protests against the kind of tyranny of dictatorship government and it Westerners as well as Burmese, hesitated and giving coming to Burma because of those conditions and there often be questions at Edward politis Rangoon as it was known in those days Yangon. Now that is when acid come compound. Sometimes Westerners will have kind of politically toned questions about what was going on with the government and protests and you know, some of the Sangha were protesting and many of the Burmese people were being abused and jailed and just said that that time um, sang Shu su chi was in and out of house arrest. And side, I usually would answer in that public Dima forum that wasn't appropriate for a monk to comment on political things. And then after the after the meeting with Western students he might come up to a few of us who who were friends of, of the democracy movement, people. Aung San su chi and Hutan Ooh. And Kim Malkin other senior leaders who Tane when he was just recently executed all friends of mine and he just come up and he say, What can I do? You know, and show his concern show his care. And you know what he would do what he could do under the governed under the discipline of the Dharma and the Sangha. His protests was poignant and powerful and silent. Because he was also a teacher of Aung San su chi. At one point he was the military Hunter had one of their one of the senior side senior to Pandita that was under the hunters control call in the Pandita to admonish him Saira put on his impeccable tres robes and had his staff that was almost as tall as he was. And he went to the compound of this senior side are under the control of the hunter. And he walked in, paid his respects and stood up and the senior side on didn't say anything. Sara Benito just stood there. Minutes rolled by. And after 10 minutes or so, said open data said. You called you called I came. What do you want? And the senior side I was really speechless. Seem you seem clear he didn't know what to say and was intimidated and so he didn't say anything. And he Perdita paid his respects and left. Those were his poignant ways of expressing his dissatisfaction with the government. And he clearly clearly was not happy with the government or how they were treating people of Burma or those in the Sangha that did protest. Side Syrah Ji was was fairly strict in separating politics from the doings of the Sangha. There are instances where it's appropriate and known that a sangha an ordained Sangha can turn their bowl upside down as a way of expressing dissatisfaction and a deep moral sense of government injustice and wrongdoing. That understood all of that say to open DITA, but his own way was doing that kind of silent but poignant messaging, get up and walk away from a senior general intelligence chief and others who would come to his monastery and try and offer things so often he did not accept. And then he was also Aung San su T's teacher. Some of my visits to Aung San su chi separate from my personal visits where I would go for tea at her home in Rangoon, sometimes I went with cider, and a group of monks and some of the nap Lise and Burmese nuns known to Aung San su chi, and she would offer a Donna to the monks and few of us lay people observe all that and, and bask in its loveliness, beauty and power. And then and then eat with the labor miss people after the Sangha had finished. In that way I got to know her husband, Michael and her sons, Kim and Alexander and see how she lived her life, you know, all those years in solitude where she had a little bit of instruction, every now and again, from one of the scientists who Jonica and primarily through SATA Pandita. Or she would use his, his book of his teachings, to learn how to practice the Brahma viharas. And and do some experiment on her own with the pastor. And I got to meet her. Her colleagues, as I mentioned, hootin, who who came out the elder Callie colleagues, the three of them, are famous for kind of standing over her green gate with up to 10,000 people on the, on the street in front of her, her her compound in Rangoon when she would give talks in the early years. So she came out of house arrest, and then we immediately would go back to work. And then at another point, that a crisis was a tipping point where she would arouse the political and moral consciousness of the country. She'd be returned to house arrest again. And in the in between years is what I would often go and visit her either one on one or with her family, or an event with her colleagues there. A number of them who were part of the recent parliament that were all put under house arrest last year after the coup, the military coup in February of last year. It was another way of flushing out the fullness of my period of time in Burma. Initially entering as a group of young Western meditation enthusiast in 1977, where we met Maha Singh and that faith, emotion to me was a promise of returning when it was possible to enter Burma for longer than a week in ordaining with Mahasi then returning as a young novice monk taking that high ordination and working with these extraordinary Nika sidles like oh tundra. And then say it open data with a deeply motivating, unique creative styles, teaching techniques. I kept the notes of all my retreat, practice in a little notebook of what I'd be reporting and the instructions I get from Sayyida. There were four or five different resolves to approach the Dhamma practice, similar to what I did with the what site have instructed me to do with the four foundations one at a time, body, knowing the body from within the body knowing feeling tone, pleasant, unpleasant neutral, from within the feeling tone, momentary experience, consciousness, from within the moment of, of consciousness or the play of the mind as it first unfolded, thought formations, down to the subtleness stream of consciousness. And then the Dharma is the phenomena, all the phenomena that appear in our consciousness, Dharma, new persona and the unique way that he intertwine Brahma Vihara and Vipassana practice with me and the kinds of resolves according to how he read me at any one practice period, sometimes I would go with the expectation that I would do a couple of weeks of as I became accustomed to two weeks of Brahma Vihara, practice to set the tone and foundation of concentration and kindness, compassion, empathy, equanimity and then to begin and then to come out and then intersperse. Resting in the in the Brahma viharas. Coming out of them, watching them dissolve, and then observing phenomena as they arose passed away through the sixth sense doors. And this kind of became the style of practice. I developed and was leaning on leaning back on. But this one retreat. Everything was kind of fuzzy and mentally energetic, I couldn't. I couldn't get a try to do the Brahma viharas. Again and again over a week or so, this is a two or three month retreat loop on data. And it just wouldn't take and finally at an interview, Pandita said, drop the Brahma viharas for this retreat. The the wisdom practice of Vipassana is his calling and is stronger than concentration practice, go with the wisdom practice. So, then everything was quite smooth. After that, I dropped the Brahma viharas and I just returned to the simplicity of moment to moment attuning to the breath of the body arising phenomena through this sense stores, observing what was happening and how, what was happening, how it was behaving, and changing. Our seeming not to change or rising, passing or streaming along. At such a velocity was nearly nearly impossible to catch. Except during a relaxed moment of insight. It was it was a pleasure to invite Ooh Pandita to America and to Hawaii, where he did a retreat here. I think it was 1986 on the Big Island at a retreat center, down Kona Coast. He used to talk about Madame pelle, or mythical fire Goddess has been similar to some Whether the mythic beans in the in the Buddhist cosmology somewhat of a Daiva, but also somewhat of a, a surah, maybe our Dakar quarter remember, the Dave have been benevolent and light. The asupra been being more fiery, warlike, as is the Hawaiian, mythic Goddess of fire, Madame Pele for her creation of these islands, and for the destruction that a river of lava can have on people's lands and home, still to this day. So he was there at a time when there was an eruption for the first time in many, many years 1986. And you could see the smoking color in the evening sky. And eventually, it took him up there to view the life volcano, Madame pelle, and all her and all her forms of steam, fire and lava lakes. His curiosity and adaptability often went against his reputation of being this stern, Zen like mountain of intensity, you know, he was a strict teacher. Even my earlier teachers and Burmese students would talk about his strictness and say, I don't need to practice with him. If I don't want, I can ask for another teacher. But I didn't have that kind of relationship, side open data. As I said, there was an immediate recognition upon meeting. And he was really gentle with me, and it was a very loving relationship, and therefore an honor to have him in my home when he came to Hawaii. And then to be trained by him eventually as a teacher in his tradition know and have the respect and admiration. I feel for him and I think his strict strictness was part of his personality, and part of his a preservation instinct for the Dhamma itself. Both Mahasi Saira and other senior Nyco side has had a concern that the Dharma would eventually be challenged and potentially disappear in Burma. And so it was really important to see that it was established in other south eastern South Asian countries like Sri Lanka and in the West, America, Europe, Australia. So much of the inspiration for their mission was that like, anything that arises is always the inevitable. Falling or disappearance, even of the disposition dispensation, the Buddha's dispensation, an era that we're still within because it's still very much alive. And as as the senior niacl cite us feared. It's hugely challenged, certainly in the countries of its origin. Burma being one of the greater countries that has preserved and protected the purity of lineages passed down for 2600 years. All that's coming true. And there's a real move to preserve the purity and integrity of, of the lineages, whichever lineage what has come from that as the as the elders pass away open data now passed away some six or seven years ago now, he was 95 I I went to his funeral I think there's only a few of us Westerners who had practice with him all of our Dhamma lives on Seung Soo, she had ordered a state funeral that by this time she was in power through democratic election it was the last gathering. So far of of many elders, many elder nuns monks, lay men, lay women primarily Burmese and a few, a few Western students altogether that is come country compound Manasa compound and the city one Pandita Rama in Yangon. Even though I had forgotten most of my Burmese the speeches given I could feel how stirring they were and how they went deep into the hearts of the 1000s of people that came to came to honor the last rites and rituals of site open data and it's really his passing and sad locking it's before him. There's not many of these of these elders remaining. I appreciate the work of insight Myanmar. Host and his colleagues are doing to preserve what's been known what's been experienced and what continues as things change so much and in Myanmar, once known when I first went there as Burma for a very long time although Burmese democracy leaders continued to call it Burma, it became an issue. The military junta was calling it man Ma. And the democracy Burmese and most of us Westerners stuck to Burma for a long time. Symbolically when I got back into Burma after a 10 year blacklist one a site of site opened attendance showed me a photo where I'm standing with democracy Burmese democracy leaders, Aung San su chi and rutin Oh Mom can or who can now attend Wayne, who was recently executed and there I am in my Burmese lungi and, and dress Top and potatoes attendant was pointed out that the picture was taken by a government spy. And the likely reason that I was identified in addition, every time I entered her compound to visit with her have tea with her. She likes to discuss politics. And I tried to steer conversation to the Dharma practice as instructed by setup and Pandita. But when I entered the compound hit this show the passport and sign in. So the word was that I had I had visited her too many times. And that's why I was blacklisted. You It was heartbreaking. It was also an opportunity for Michelle McDonald to begin teaching the retreats I was teaching in the sky and hills will say that we're looking at his Chihuahua monastery. We had founded the meta Dona project for health and education in the southern hills, supporting a number of nunneries. And medical needs at the hospital said we lock in a founded and we built a school elementary school and each year adding grades through the eighth or ninth grade. So when I couldn't get back in I asked Michelle and Joseph to lead that year's retreat that I had been started looking at and I founded a Western retreat center. And he he he built like 40, cooties, little cottages 24 women on the southern wall of Chihuahua Valley and 20 for men on the other side, and then a Adama Hall and planted at all in pathways and gardens. Really lovely. So Michelle and MacDonald. Joseph Goldstein taught that year that I was blacklisted. And then Michelle every year after that she was be arguably the first western woman teacher in Burma. And unquestionably the first one that teaching with a Burmese monk side by side with a Burmese monk. So that gave me a lot of joy, that that could be going on for the years that was banned. I changed passports and got back in a couple years later for two years. And then was discovered again and then was absent for another 10 years until 2011. That I was allowed back in and we thought our last retreat there the Cha Cha, cha, monastic and foreigners retreat center, January of 2020 just before the pandemic and that's that's been it because since February of last year, with a coup I don't know of any events, dharma events especially that are going on are allowed I really don't know I think Burma's great gift to the world has been the Dharma either directly through these elder Sangha ordained monastics are in the way its influence nearby countries, Southeast Asian, Sri Lankan. And certainly along with Thailand, it's inspired this western surge of interest in practice, and Dhamma practice and training to the extent that our first teacher meetings were six or eight Westerners between America and Europe, Australia I think now they're counted in the hundreds it's it's hard to tell what's except from one's own heart and what's true and authentic. And well grounded, real anchor well anchored in this magical transmission of our teachers and teachers teachers, back a couple of 100 years at least in this current form. of practice, oriented experiential Dhamma came out of the more monastic study and concentration kinds of practices till around the mid 1800s When the predecessors of Maha seaside and his teacher who Narada Syrah, the Mingan Syrah, and their teachers and teachers, teachers, Lady saya we can thank them and thank the country of Burma for valuing the Dhamma. To the degree of protecting, preserving and sustaining the monastic community in the monasteries practice centers for so long. We need it.
Host 1:38:01
This concludes the end of part one of my interview with Steve Smith. This conversation will be continued in an upcoming episode in part two. Many listeners know that in addition to running these podcast episodes, we also run a nonprofit, that or Burma, which carries out humanitarian projects across Myanmar. While we regularly post about current needs and proposals from groups on the ground, we also handle emergency requests, often in matters that are quite literally life or death. When those urgent requests come in, we have no time to conduct targeted fundraisers as these funds are often needed within hours. So please consider helping us to maintain this emergency fund. We want to stress that literally any amount you can give allows us to respond more flexibly and effectively when disaster strikes. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and medium missions, aiding those local communities who need to post donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation funds supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by a nonprofit mission that or Burma. Any donation you get have on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r B URM a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar. Available at a local crafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's a local crafts spilled a LOKCR a ft s one word a local crafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.