Transcript: Episode #166: Threads of Justice (Bonus Shorts)
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Host 00:03
May Allah for any Burmese language speakers tune in today, we wanted to let you know that our better Burma mission has launched three Burmese language podcasts, Myanmar revolutionary tales, dark era of Burma, and Myanmar Peace, women insecurity. These programs can be found on our website as well as on any of your preferred podcast platforms. We invite you to take a listen. But for now let's get on with this episode
00:56
is the day that I absolutely hate and it is it was.
Brad 01:32
And welcome back. Today we're going to be talking about a very sobering topic. Of course, we're all familiar with the phenomenal loss of life and property that has befallen the people of Myanmar and a very important issue to discuss is the means by which we can hope to seek reparations for the victims of these crimes. And to discuss this issue with us today we are joined by hanjie, who is a coordinator at nd Obama. So Angie, I'd like to invite you to introduce yourself for our audience and also to introduce in the Obama who you are and what you do.
Han Gyi 02:09
Thank you. My name is Han Ji Gordon, leader of the Obama Firstly, I would like to talk briefly about now what for human rights documentation Obama and Obama and Obama established India to Donna for a long time but my Bora Well, we are focusing on human rights documentation where our member organization base across the country some members based in active conflict areas Semmering ceasefire areas and main cities after the military field group in 2021. Now a dagger three is as conflict area. Now we have that team member organization which are diverse in their representation including ethnic jute, women and issue based organizations. We are and Obama has two main goals for humorous documentation in the short term, we plan to advocate for accountability for victims of state sponsor violations in the long term, using our data as evidence to seek justice, truth and reparations through transitional justice mechanism. To reach are those oils we have three main programs, trainees, data management and advocacy. Now, I would like to focus on the training we conduct the humerus documentation trainee for fee researchers who document the violation on the ground. Normally we conduct basic numerous documentation training. Many mainly focus on methodology of documentation process, such as finding the information type of evidence, gathering evidence interview with fit teams, survival witness and analyze of the documentation or in advanced level, we move focus on atrocity of state sponsor and nastic. Juice, analyze of international crimes such as war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide and international accountability mechanisms such as independent investigative mechanism for Myanmar dividable ICC iCj University, R G. addition. Also we conduct the transition adjust the trainee and how documentation process contribute to transition adjusted initiatives. Now we also share our information to the FBI, the UN agency and national unity government and ug for advocacy and accountability purpose.
Brad 05:31
Okay, so that's quite a lot. Right there. So let's move forward to specifically the, the the reparations component you've been working on this for for quite some time. Now. What What was the motivation for for focusing on reparations?
Han Gyi 05:49
One, National League for Democracy landslide victory in 2015 elections, and took the office in Yama, we started thinking about implement some kind of transitional justice initiatives, and are the civilian governments. We see reparation is as the entry point to implement the transitional justice issue. And if the government initiate reparations program implement, that will be helpful for the victims of human rights violation. And support for national reconciliation process. Loudly over 17 years civil war in Yemen, both political prisoner and conflict affected survivors never received the justice, they are seeking and holding public trade accountability. They have been suffering impact of the human rights violations, too much law, the ongoing civil war. That's why we start to think about reparation project.
Brad 07:08
So, so this is quite interesting. So you, you began at the very beginning of the NLD period, to look at the reparations process between the, say, 2016, the NLD, government actually went to name it all. So between the 2016 2021 Did you receive any support from the NLD government? Or was there opposition? Or were you ignored? Was there any success? What was it like for that five year period
Han Gyi 07:41
or during this period? We see only the civil society initiative, transition adjusted implementation, like Memorial support for the formable political prisoner and their families. So that's why we try to encourage and advocate to the UN and the government to work on the reparation project. That's why we started to establish the reparation Working Group in 3050 which is combination of the anti Obama and other CSO, which are interested in reparation issue. The art Guruji conduct, first ever Viton Needs Assessment campaign for a government rock racing program.
Brad 08:42
So if if the coup had not happened in 2021 How far do you think you would be with the reparation process? Right now? Would we be in a position where a civilian government would be attempting to compensate the victims of the military's crimes or would that still be far in the future?
Han Gyi 09:08
Yeah, I will let you explain a little bit about the what we will working on the reparation project after we established the reparation Working Group. Firstly, even we understand the concept of the transitional justice. When we start to work, and focus on the reparation project, we build the capacity of more understanding about reparation issue, through the workshops fulfill date by expertise from other countries such as Indonesia, Sri Lanka and flipping are based on other country experience with this sight and focus on the survivors groups and reach of humorous valishia They had suffered. So survivor former political prisoner, conflict survivors and land grab fit hymns and had suffered a range of violations, including about arbitrary arrests, torture, killing, disagreements free forced relocation and arbitrary taxation. Then we interview conduct with fit himself humorous violation between 2017 and 2018. We conduct an interview in 11 states and region such as Yari McQuaid a guy named Ari Jango and bucho region and also share chain the chain most x final stature we are evil to solid were 111 cases 85 cases related to conflict victims, that thing do land grab victims in 32 former political prisoners most of the violations were carried out by terminal now military gender. When we conduct the interview, fear researchers ask fittings about the humans violation they suffered what the physical, psychological, social and economic impact had been and what they would like to see from perpetrators and the government to help them built their lives. According to in view, we see the impact of the violations in almost every single case victims that their lives had been negatively impact that freedoms have often suffered multiple consequence as a result of the violation, including economic hardship, have problems fit in so they are children having to drop out of education, then we collect the victims desire. The most common desire for justice was in institutional reform for guarantee of narrow recurrence of victims separately acts for either former grantees have narrow recurrence or some form of governmental reform to prevent state in insurgent violence. Many victims are asked for some form of symbolic satisfaction to make them feel like they had received justice. This includes public and private acknowledgement on the part of the perpetrators, apologies or to receive the remains of those kill and disappeared of fitting. Fitton frequently asked for compensation to help them overcome the negative consequence of human rights violations. Victims often ask for restitution of their situation to what it was before the human rights violation took place. So this specify Return of the lands or property release of the relative wrongly in prison or full restoration of their civil and political rights. Many victims asked for justice, but they are forced low levels of confidence in the domestic legal system. Then we start the policy advocacy because of our objective to implement reparation projects, is campaigning for government's reparation program. Firstly, we launched the report in October today at Nintendo and advocacy to government and member of Parliament's in devido for several times, and 2010 30 February one COVID-19 outbreak in Yama. We hold that focus during the pandemic, then military fake group in the detail one. So here I would like to explain a little bit about advocacy experience. We receive positive feedback from member of Parliament's From both lower and upper house, sometime we are officially met with MPs from several parliamentary committees in the parliament. And sometimes we invite MPs from various parts parties outside of the parliament, as informed discussion about reparations, issue, finding and recommendation of reparations report. When we met with bees informally, we also invite some experts from other countries to share their experience campaign for reparations for victims of human rights violation in their country. When we met with NBC in the parliament, according to, to the night constitution and formation of parliamentary committee, each of the committee has at least one representative from military while we explain about reparations, report, fittings needs assessment, fittings desire and recommendation, including how they had been NGR the violations, mostly committed by military, then military representative from the comedy while strongly rejects and give negative responses to the information in the report. So if we can continue your campaign, all the advocacy at the Davido and civilian government, maybe we will reach some stage when the NBS and the government office, more understand the reparation? Why they need to work on the reparation on behalf of the perpetrator who did wrong in the past. Then they can implement the reparation process maybe started discuss just discussing in the parliament and tried to pass the bill. If we continue after 2020 Now,
Brad 17:43
right. So I want I just want to jump back a little bit, because what you're talking about with regard to the military, having a negative reaction to accusations of military crimes, that is something that we've seen a lot this this is a very recurring motif. In in Myanmar politics, we have very clear cases of the military carrying out arson, murder, torture, rape, theft, many, many, many, many crimes. And the problem that we often have, is that it's very difficult to prove them. Because the military often operates in the border regions. They don't always have access to electricity, they don't always have access to the internet. They may not have access to reliable policing, reliable courts. And they would have to complain to the commander of a military base and and accused the soldiers of committing a crime, which would be very dangerous for a lot of these civilians to do. So I'm wondering how you've managed to to deal with this problem. How do you collect evidence that the military has committed a crime and when you do have evidence, how do you approach the military to say that the military should acknowledge what they did?
Han Gyi 19:20
Yeah, normally we always focus on the veteran approach. So when we see the Assam incident happening in some particular areas, we conduct the interview this morning with the victims and survivors and the witness. So they can tell their their story, their experience, how they have been violent, like torture, like arbitrary arised forced labor force relocation but problem is the most of the violation happening in the Atlantic area. So, first off of our language barrier. So, most of the ethnic population, they cannot properly speak Burmese, and they do not know which petrolium which military units operate in their area, they know this is Burmese military terminal, but they cannot make mention exactly what is the military units operate in their areas in village. But we have some information about military operation in area where they operate are like kind of military or Shala. So, basically the the military base in the military command base in each of the state and region. So, we have such kind of information from the CSO and some military observation groups. So then we can refer friends such kind of information, and then we realize which 10 Which military unit operate in particular area. For for the complaint mechanism, yeah, it's too much dangerous for the fittings are there family complaints to the commoner coming off of the units operate in their area, sometimes they committed crimes in the region. So in this situation, we encourage the victims and their family to complain to the manager in a humorous promessa. Sometimes, we also send a complaint letter to the new manager numerous comes in actually am an HR is not independent organization. So they don't have capacity and authority to investigate such kind of case, we complained to them. So we always keep the information in our database. For Sunday, when we have reliable judicial system in the country, or the international judicial system or the original system, we will use our information for seeking the justice for the victims of numerous violations and the perpetrator accountability. So according to our documentation, experience, that victims never see the adjusted for the seeking, and the arbitrary outcome, accountability, because the military enjoy the institutionalize impunity, and also according to the to the 2008 constitution. So they enjoy a lot of immunity from the Constitution and also the other oppressive law.
Brad 23:54
Your experience does the military ever do? Any real investigation of its own crimes? Have they ever accepted allegations have? Have they ever launched a legal proceeding against soldiers who have been accused of these crimes? Or have they have they ever attempted to cooperate and investigate? Or do they always reject the allegations?
Han Gyi 24:20
Sometimes some cases? Well, no. Because of the the media report and the NGO report, they try to investigate within the military coat not in the civilian coats. So we don't know about transparency. And also sometimes they punish low rank soldiers for the low standard says like a two years in prison three years in prison, but actually after the six months or 510 months later. So those soldiers get amnesty from the military. And then they all are released. So many cases. So they bring the military coat, not in the civilian code. So we don't know about the transparency of proceeding process. Even the center's low rank soldiers are later the release and now the MST.
Brad 25:36
Wow. But so the sentencing or investigating an officer is not something that that they would do. Yeah. Well, and so, okay, so let's so let's talk about the report. So you said the report was released in 2018. This is during the NLD period. So what were the findings of that report? What were the recommendations?
Han Gyi 26:02
So Rockem recommendation based on the vetting desire. So we recommend, like kind of institutional reform, for guarantee of narrow regards, because most of the victims, they don't want to suffer, repeat again and again, and also the subjects. They don't want other population experienced like them in the future. So kind of institutional reform, and also the symbolic certificate ship, like victim needs some kind of apologies and acknowledge from the perpetrators. And also, some victims, they want to receive the remains of their loved one due to be Shinra according to their religious or their culture, and some the victims, they want compensation to help them overcome the negative consequence of human rights violation. And also recently tuition, like land grab fit dems, they weren't back their land. up before the the situation humorous violation took place. And some political prisoner. They weren't back, they are. Profit professionalizing like loyal lysing, medical doctor lysing, and also some political prisoner in exile, they went back they asserted citizenships. So based on their desire, we recommend, like institutional reform, by symbolic satisfaction, and the compensation risk distribution. Yeah, that's all.
Brad 28:18
Okay, so there's still quite a lot that that needs to be, needs to be done. So let's, let's talk about that, that subsequent period. So after 2018, we start moving forward, we go into 2020, we obviously have, even even in late 2019, we started having rumors of COVID-19 Spreading back then we called it the Wuhan flu. And early 2019, it starts getting more and more so 2020, it starts getting more and more serious. And so most of 2020 The government is focusing on COVID-19. And then, of course, February 2021, we have the military coup. So between the 2018 report, and that the 2021 coup let's let's talk about the advocacy that you were that you were doing in in Apt or what was going on after this report was published.
Han Gyi 29:19
Yesterday as I mentioned before, firstly, we explain about the why we are working on reparations. So if the government implements reparation project, so that will be support for the National consultation process and the health for the victims of human rights violation for rebuilt their life. So when we advocate to the member of Parliament's and government officer We also invite some expertise from other country to share what is the process of operation in the countries like a flipping and other countries. So, the most of the MPs from the various parties, so, they are interested in the restoration project, and they are willing to work on this issue, but the problem is, so, we need to we need them do understand more about reparations in other countries, and they need to prepare the bill in line with the country context country situation. So, why we and they are trying to work in together so, such kind of obligation we face like a COVID and the, the military coup. So, that's why we cannot continue, they cannot continue situation like, like a limbo.
Brad 31:11
Absolutely. And we're gonna talk about the coup in a second. But I just want to go back and recover the significance of what we're doing. In your opinion, is it possible for Myanmar to transition to genuine peace and stability and under the N ug, we've heard a lot this phrase, federal democracy, federal democracy is a federal democratic system possible. Without a a reconciliation process. You've mentioned that truth and reconciliation, truth and reconciliation is something that we've seen used very effectively in South Africa following apartheid, something that we've seen used very effectively in Rwanda following the genocide, something that we've seen used very effectively in Liberia following the Civil War. Definitely, in many other countries, truth and reconciliation commissions and committees and groups have had significant success. But is it possible for Myanmar to transition to federal democracy and to transition to a stable pluricentric country without this reconciliation and compensation process?
Han Gyi 32:27
Yeah, that's why won the national unity government establish and the N UCC establish, we tried to engage with them to work on the transitional transitional justice issue. Firstly, even though we cannot continue policy, advocacy, about reparation, due to pandemic and the effect, we successfully conduct when transitional justice similar for the national unity console, the deaf culture and UCC and the national unity government of Yama and ug in December 2021. We invite International Center for transitional justice to full slate the workshop focused on how transitional justice measure can be incorporate or even guarantee in a constitution. As in this workshop, the expert is from South Africa, Philippines and Chile. They explain about one the prepare the drafting constitution in their countries. So this is the first stage to introduce transitional justice issue to the unused stakeholder. Now, they they are learning a lot from our advocacy and also working a transitional justice issue. And also the within the drafting of Federal Democratic of new for constitution or how they can be incorporate the transition adjusted issue. So now the process is still ongoing.
Brad 34:28
Absolutely. So now let's, let's finally move ahead to to the current situation. So obviously, a lot of the work that you were doing, has been cut short, by the military coup, and since 2021 Now we're coming up to the second anniversary in a few days we will mark the second anniversary. We're doing this in January 2023. of the coup and we've seen a terrible death toll and and phenomenal loss of life and property Can you can you talk to us about out in terms of, you know, what you research and what you deal with? What is the toll what is the level of loss that the country and the people have faced since February 1 2021.
Han Gyi 35:14
Now, two years after the military attempted group against the democratically elected government collapse, or areas such as social political, economic rights, or mass commerce violations by 100 troops are 1000s of civilians are killed, detain hundreds of 1000s of civilians are as IDPs. Without essential needs, as our member documentation show, after two years of faith group, almost 3000 killed over 70,000 arrests, over 13,000 state detain. Staggering further, 1.2 million people have been internally displaced, and over 70,000 have left the country. Also credible information indicates that over 34,000, several years structures, including homes, clinics, school and place of worship have been banned over the past three years, especially the guy reaching Qin states going in states. In the year 2030, alone, over 2000 human rights violations committed by military Honda across the country. So that's all based on our assessment, our documentation, and other reliable source.
Brad 37:00
So now, let's put that in terms of reparations. So this is, this is huge. I mean, for certain communities near the borders, certain ethnic minority communities who have been facing repeated repression for years and years and years and years. This might not be very new for them, but for a lot of communities in Myanmar, and I think, particularly for communities in Sagaing. Way. This is this is a new level of military abuse of, as you say, awesome. Against their properties we saw in Chin State, they destroyed food stores, to starve the people. We've seen, you know, schools and churches blowing up. How is reparation even possible? Is there any mechanism that will allow compensation for these victims? Like, has it gone too far? For reparation? Or is there still a chance to achieve something?
Han Gyi 38:08
All right now, when we talk about reparation, we can we would say Arjun Anita of reparations and long term reparation. So right now, even we don't have any kind of transmission mechanism to deal with the victims of numerous violation. We cannot provide your operation through the any transition adjusting mechanism. But right now, we can do like gender studies or violence and to allow humanitarian assess, as Security Council's resolution that demand and immediate and to the violence among other urgent steps. So the father of gender need to allow humanitarian says to the population who needs who urgently needs that humanitarian assistance. So that is our first step. So when we have Jeanne Ewing transition period or some kind of transition adjusting mechanism, definitely, we have to work on reparations with the other transition adjustments, components. So that's why even we don't have a transition period. We are working on the documentation for many years for those victims and survivor who suffer a lot in the past to support In the future for their justice, reparations, and any other Transmission Mechanism what they will look to see or receive?
Brad 40:17
And is there any collaboration with the energy the in UCC, the CRP H, do you? Do you see them as useful partners and trying to find a way to towards reparation? Or do you prefer to work independently of these groups.
Han Gyi 40:38
So, we prefer working independently, but at the same time, as we did, under the under the government, we try and do advocate the government's implement reparation program for victims of human rights violation. And also right now, when we see the unused stakeholder, we try to advocate advocate them to work one the transition period, so, they have to deal with paths including our operation program, as far as I understand when the operation program, implement by the government, government need to assess like documentation establish the kind of truth and reconciliation commission based on the recommendation of and finding of the truth and recommend recommendation, the government implement the OR operation policy or operation projects. Right now, the the new stakeholder, so, they are kind of the transition government. So, but they need to make reliable policy for operations or the transition adjusted policy that will be good for the future implementation. Right now, they cannot practically work on any kind of transition adjusted issue.
Brad 42:25
So, looking more internationally, do you think that there is a possibility to take this issue to an international footing rather, obviously, we have the ICJ case between Myanmar and the Gambia on behalf of Bangladesh, but do you think there's any any possibility of moving some of this to for example, the International Criminal Court or is that too difficult to organize?
Han Gyi 42:52
Yeah, right. Now, we see some opportunity for the countability issue like you said ICG, ICC and also some countries study in initiate using the university edition like Argentina, Turkey. And recently we we saw the news that the international human rights organization by fortify right summit so the case India, Germany for the the military regime, like in Southeast Asia, the Indonesia start to prepare using university tuition. So we have some opportunity to work on the the Accountable issues, including the zoo and divide the bar, so we have a chance to work with such kind of Indonesia, Cote, Indonesia, a venue and also International Gold a voting mechanism that is somehow good for us.
Brad 44:11
So that's quite a robust overview of of what you're working on. So at this point in the interview, as is our tradition, I would just like to invite you to leave our audience with with a thought or with a piece of information for them to consider over the course of their day. Something that you would like them to take away from our discussion here today.
Han Gyi 44:41
Yeah. So as I mentioned earlier, so we are closely working with the NEA the international accountability mechanism Same including UN agency for accountability holding public trade account accountability for Myanmar, because the currently we are now the the domestic JT Chain system is totally collapse. We cannot rely on the domestics legal and judicial system, we rely on the international accountability mechanism quote. So that's why we always are closely working with them and they share the information.
Host 45:45
For whatever reason, even as the conflict and Myanmar continues to worsen, it somehow continues to be shut out of the Western media news cycle. And even when the foreign media does report on the conflict, it's often presented as a reductionist, simplistic caricature that inhibits a more thorough understanding of the situation. In contrast, our podcast platform endeavors to portray a much more authentic, detailed and dynamic reality of the country and its people, one that nurtures deeper understanding and nuanced appreciation. Not only do we ensure that a broad cross section of ideas and perspectives from Burmese guests regularly appear on our platform, but we also try to bring in foreign experts, scholars and allies who can share from their experience as well. But we can't continue to produce this consistency and at the level of quality we aim for without your help. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. And the donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar. Available at a local crafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's a local crafts spelled a LOKCRAFT s one word a local crafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support
49:12
what am I Nanga we're gonna do we are done and the reason is, we got busier and busier. Oh blah yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda