Transcript: Episode #165: Access Denied
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not undergone human review. As a result, some of the words in the text may not accurately reflect what the speaker said. This is especially applicable to speakers with distinct accents, as the AI might encounter difficulties in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it's important not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the precise words spoken by the guest.
Host 00:00
Oh? Welcome to the Insight Myanmar podcast. Before we get into today's show, I wanted to let you know that we have a lot more written and video content on our website. If you haven't visited it yet, we invite you to take a look at WWW dot insight myanmar.org. In addition to complete information about all of our past episodes, there's also a variety of blogs, books and videos to check out. And you can also sign up for our regular newsletter. But for now enjoy what follows and remember sharing is caring. Right really pleased on this episode of insight, Myanmar podcast, I'll be talking to toes a lot. And we're going to be discussing the recent history of communication in Myanmar the importance of different ways and technologies of communication, also the security risks, tracing it historically over the last few decades and looking at what are the current communication needs and challenges today and what is being done to meet those challenges for those in the democracy movement. So those all that thank you so much for making the time to join and talk about this important topic with us
Toe Zaw Latt 02:09
excellently vegan
Host 02:11
right. So you have quite a history, both in terms of your research as a reporter, as well as living through this as some of the work that you've done, start us off with telling us going back several decades and talking about some of the communication realities and challenges and how things were several decades ago and Myanmar.
Toe Zaw Latt 02:32
Yes, working as a journalist for less 20 years, I was with the DVB immigrant advisor Obama is an exact media but I was invited back to pharma back in 2012. So, historically, pharma Newmar is run by military government since 1962. And they have a due to anti communication among them, I was until now very heavy censorship. And also in the in the past me, it was very anti communication and information flow, especially in the parent information flow, especially military generate, they have they use media as a as a tool or more more about controlling about the information. So, only you know country where you have, you have to pay maybe one down a US dollar to $1 Failure US dollar to obtain center and say 90 until 2020 2010 When I was invited in 2012, but too young after operating from exile media, my first Semco I have to pay for 500 US dollar through MPT Myanmar posts and telecommunication Oh my ministry of information it is a joint venture. In those days there was only communication. Right after that, you know, there was a a let me go quickly, you know about the historical event in the AMA. There was an military Kubernetes 62 by a general event, and then one party rule and in the ADA uprising, I was one of the students, a division Ida and then there was a 1990 election of course and the National League for Democracy won a landslide but they never owner. And then you know, those days they the military coupe again and change their name to slop as LOC is ignored and order restored is in concert. Later they tend to SBDC stay present diploma comes up to down that eight draft in our Constitution. And then there was a legend in 2010 A legend or Of course enter the main opposition party wine got it, but into the top dogs so G decided to contest a by election and start and during the during the parliament so that is a that is an ally Obon in SoCo, parliamentary democracy predated nema. And say up to then there was no independent information flow, there was only one version or true, which is an army version not true. The media was tightly controlled, the censorship was very heavy, it was only state TV, radio and TV, radio and television and Ami TV channel called now where he was the only allow, allow media space,
Host 05:47
right and in this time, just to interrupt for a moment in this time of not having any internet or any official means of being able to broadcast or put information out what became very popular as kind of spreading information in some kind of informal way was the tea shop. So describe the importance of the tea shop during those years.
Toe Zaw Latt 06:07
Okay, I was growing up in 98, our primary source of information was shot with radio and via like BBC Burmese service, actually, the very well known ADA, the target date for the Democratic rally, it's progressed out of the BBC Burmese service from London, we received that those information from like you mentioned from the teacher, so it is a communication is more face to face, you know, person, you know, only nr Saiga and that kind of target and that's how we share information and that's how we get in those day like in throughout the Southeast Asia they were the kind of you know, generation that you know, how we personal information is very rare and very difficult. How to communicate mainly face to face, there were no not very effective. telephone or internet was not a case of Burma, Myanmar. It was a very effective and a 2013. So given this background on top of the Army General has very tendency to control the information flow that's what they make it very expensive. Come on radicalized to own a telephone same cat one on the US dollar 1500 US dollar and very limited service allow you know, so NT 2012 That is the beginning of the opening up under the tasing government because Dawn's So, Gina enter the start getting into the parliament. And there were a series of reforms introduce one other reform is relaxing or telecommunication center. So and 2013 and those military see me military government corps tender for Telugu communication operator they were I was in already young. And very, you remember when I went to get to internet I do go to Shangri La Hotel at the tea shop you know to connect with my fellow friends in Thailand or in Norway those day back and only the very intelligent a hot air has a very limited slow Internet access very expensive and also it is heavily surveillance by the Burmese army. So, that was a history the communication you know how I been through how to connect with the outside wall. And then you know the surgery and PT was the only player in my post and telecommunication and you know, they are the key player. And mainly it is a joint venture with ministry of information or ministry of communication and with the Japanese firm. And then they start allowing the telecommunication companies in early 2013. I remember correctly, you know they were 19 companies with that. And they were the two winner one is a Norwegian own Telenor in 2013 and then already do that is a Doha quarter page. telecommunication companies come into Burma, Myanmar, that is a beginning of the Obon another telecommunications sector and also the intruders, you know, the Facebook social media social media started in 2013. And then you know, now there are around 28 to 30 million active account user and then suddenly you know, social media Facebook and and communication is was very popular. I think both please do Brevik operator tele No. Are they do they left after military group again in 2021? Because they deny to call up Rate and intercept dinner surveillance technology into their, their service at the especially telling us they refuse to provide their audience data. I'm talking about 15 Millions and user that transfer to the military. And also for telling our case, they worried that there will be economic sanction by European and European Parliament and European governments. So they left. And so they are operation to the private owner.
Host 10:27
And just to back up a moment before this, we were talking about the development of cell phones and cell phones, SIM cards originally were very expensive. And then they got cheaper when the market was opened up, but to go back, even before cell phones or cell phones existed, because I think there's a big difference between how cellphones came to America, for example, and how they came to Myanmar. In America, for example, most every home and business, ever an office, everyone had a phone, everyone had a home phone. And so then when we got the cell phones, basically it was it was like everyone had a private phone line they can take with them everywhere they went. And the difference was that instead of a family sharing a phone at home, every individual person got to take their phone with them. But in Myanmar was, it was quite different. Because you didn't have most homes, most families owning phones, I remember when I first arrived in 2007, there were if you wanted to call someone in an apartment block, there might be one phone and an entire apartment block of hundreds of people. Sometimes there would be one phone, in several apartment blocks you would call a street corner and you would tell them which apartment and which which building in which number you wanted to contact, it'd be several 100 people sharing. There were also instead of payphones, there were one of the things you saw pre 2000 10s Yangon is these phone booths. That would just be clerks that would be behind the counter with just a typical phone. And there'd be three phones, there'd be long lines, and you'd make a make a call from from those phones to you know, those public phones to another set of public phones. So what do you remember before cell phones even came to Myanmar? What what do you remember about the way that that phone lines of any way were used and how secure they were,
Toe Zaw Latt 12:11
it was a report if they make it very difficult for security reason. So the communication is tightly controlled and monitored. That's why what you mentioned about those days, you know, if you want to call someone you do go through an operator, these are all registered for the phone was very expensive, like I mentioned, like SIM card or landline. And those days you have what you have mentioned is about landline, and also the cell phone was not that that allowed that much only cronies and business. And even you know, the funny thing is, if you go over see if you have a telephone, it's as rugged as you are SS very very well as as rugged as property like house and telephone number used to be used to be it is your grantee that you are rich you are you have access to telephone, because of the assembly, Army General has a funny idea of controlling communication and monitoring most of the communication that is that is the history dog. Army General mentality of controlling about the communication. So you are quite right that in before 2010 was, you know, heavily regulated through the operator. And most of them are monitored after right in those day. Also what popular is they start allowing the private internet cafe, you have to be registered MPD and other information and Myanmar posts and telecommunication. And also most of most of those, you know, internet cafe era also heavily surveillance and all the Sava is going through the army of military control, communication and Obama. So So you are right that you know to 2010 Why Myanmar communication is heavily censored control and monitor and also register by the registration. So you have to go through operator you're the go through the particular Sava unit license to get both, you know, landline and phone line.
Host 14:24
Yeah, and I think that's that's important for two reasons to keep in mind I think the first reason you've already hit upon and that's that you mentioned Burma being a place where face to face trust and contact is very important. And that's true even to this day. You know, even to this day having someone vouch for you having face to face meetings being able to personally know someone that takes on an outsized importance as it does in other societies. And I think that when you understand this history, this helps to understand how because there was such a limit on information flow, because there was such a control on Being able to have any semblance of private communication with someone through, you know any form of phone line or mail or anything else the tea shops take on this outsize importance that you actually have to sit down with someone face to face talk in a whisper at a tea shop to them. And that's where this trust is developed and based and I think that explains why to this day, the sense of of trust and closeness and proximity are still so important in Myanmar versus, you know, establishing connections on on email or other types of things that the face to face is still so vital. But I think the second point that this kind of history illustrates to us is I hope that it's given an appreciation to our audience listening in now, just how fast things developed in Myanmar, just the lightning speed the warp speed that happened where as opposed to like the United States, where you go from having a most everyone has a phone line in your house to suddenly you have a mobile phone with you could take around in Myanmar, you're talking about going from the phone being an exclusive object of privilege, that even if you do have it, everything is monitored, everything is listened to, you're going from that reality very quickly. And just a matter of years to suddenly, not only does everyone have affordable mobile phones and affordable SIM cards, but also everyone is on Facebook and everyone is chatting and reading so called news and everything else. And so it was really just this watershed moment of going from a very tightly controlled totalitarian state with very limited access to information and freedom of, of communication to suddenly the things just just opened up and pouring out. And I think that led to a lot of confusion understandably, in how to adapt from one extreme to another.
Toe Zaw Latt 16:45
That's correct, especially youth and student are they always you know, always forefront or the democratic struggle. So, like you mentioned, and the medium between student activists and youth usually take place in teach or face to face and then you know, suddenly there is an open up and then you know, from that from face to face to overnight, and to giant international telecommunication, tax communication came in, I remember, you know, the overnight the the my my $500 and be the same cap, and do next day you can start by in 1500 jet dogs is 1.0 dollar 1.5 dollar available from Telenor and an already operator on top of this MPT. So I know that I remember people are queuing and furious about why you cannot believe that you know, there is a very cheap SIM card available. So at first you know, and then you know, they're telling us they're building their network, you know, it's expand rapidly and from Django to Mandalay big city nebula they start putting up more relay station more outboard, you know, than their coverage reach, I mean, within they start operating in they got the license around 2030 and bullet and then you know, there was a a second operator already got their license telling about the license and they expand their network overnight and then you know, the Simca was went on the fire on a very cheap and they are coverage it's rapidly expand. And then and then suddenly Burmese army also you know, they don't let it alone they'd suddenly introduce a mindset you know, the funny thing is MITRE is the operative MITRE is owned by two biggest Southeast Asia army MITRE is a joint venture with Burmese Army and the Vietnamese Army it's called V Viet so until now and they are the number four operator because our telecom said that is suddenly overnight very popular, affordable and they make lots of profit from Yamaha really love consuming data. If you look at those past data, you know, they're telling already do and then make very lucrative business. And you know, at the same time, there are an invader problem like my mom the majority they were like both they both enjoy like telling or having a 20 million customer and already do having a 15 million customer within very short periods and the data is a easily available and then you know the majority user has no digital or information literacy. So the Facebook become suddenly one of the popular medium of communication like you rightly mentioned, Mama Mama Mama economics are the leak for like Sarani there is a mobile banking became very popular overnight, because banking was very difficult I mean, because of this communication barrier and to have a bank account is very difficult then suddenly there is a money a change and then the telephone payment you know online payment and also the telephone, Telly, Telly banking overnight so that is rapid. But at the same time, information literacy, majority Burmese are very low. And then you know there is an invader problem of misinformation disinformation, where information deliberately produced by the Burmese army again then our Mr. Foreman you know, cybercrime unit and Senate, they are soldier to Russia and China to learn how to monitor in the old days, you know, I was with the DVB DVB once I was under a DDoS attack, and also most of the exam media was under heavily the virus, you know, DDoS attack by the Burmese army, you know, organize, groups start attacking on the independence media WhatsApp. And so this is a this is the very, very in one hand, a lot of majority are the people enjoy getting access to information. And also at the other hand, on the other hand, a lot of people don't have information literacy, Burmese, especially in online there are a lot of misinformation disinformation and male information are heavily circulated. On top of that there is a delivery army Sagwa until now, they use a very effective psychological warfare targeting to their own soldier plus, you know, majority majority Burmese Burmese population. If you look at Amin spokeperson, and generate momentum, he does say run there his his mother, you need a score, public relation and psychological warfare attached to the commonality before the Army military coup. So their army primary function is psychological warfare and target into their own soldier. And then then then, general public so so information is always you know, for the general or Burmese army always they use as a weapon. To, to monitor and also to to Kaga about the democratic movement and it descends. So this is the overnight situation, the Obama 70 change from very close country. And also, this is the new generation that they call it generations that at least you know, they have a five to seven year old information, free access to information, make them connect with the outside world. And that's why they are very well knowledge and equip that that is a that is a one of the key challenge for Burmese army to control, especially blogging or information flow, and also producing their own narrative, one version or army true, it's no longer relevant to those, you know, younger generation because they go there, they got the taste of the information flow, openness, and connect that with the entire world. That's what you know, Gen Z and the new generation are Auntie Cooper and democratic forces after 2021 military coup, make the very forefront of the previous resistance today. And also the biggest cannons to Army because of these, you know, they can never shut out Obama again. Because there is already information flow open up. So now these days, you know, and I mean, even mizzima We have 23 million online, on our Facebook 23 million followers a lot on our YouTube, we have a millions of following a follow up. And also on top of that we have satellite TV, and shortwave radio, and also the FM attend F and look at f and also very popular because our media is now cutting off most of the communication in the conflict area. So there is no information flow. So we have to have a lot of area, go back to radar, you know, shortwave radio, or the or the FM radio information on top of the satellite information. So my point is that, you know, there is no way we can control information entity, the platform about information flow these days. That's make me one of the biggest challenge and promise me facing is all these you know, independence, information flow, and via money, TV, radio, and online. This is the also biggest challenge for me at the moment.
Host 24:50
There's something really interesting he said I just want to go back to where you're describing the experience of the transition years. And you you really beautifully done ascribe the the chaos and the swirling forces coming from different directions happening simultaneously. I was just taking notes and noted down four different elements. You said this era was marked by an open flow of information and communication like never before. It was marked by media literacy. It was marked by military spine it to greater degrees and having more to be able to spy on and it was marked by military propaganda SIOP campaigns to be able to convince their soldiers and the populace of certain things. And so these are really strong forces, positive and negative, that are just all being unleashed with really no, no holds barred, just free flowing overnight, you know, going from an era of decades and decades where there was such limited flow of information and communication where the tea shop became this kind of metaphor, and as well as physical place where you could actually talk to people carefully and exchange news going from that to just having kind of all the dams bursting simultaneous at once, and it almost feels like it's going to take us years, if not decades to really understand what was happening in that era, because things just everything just ignited and came through all at once.
Toe Zaw Latt 26:17
Yes. And until now, you know, those you know, independent operators are gone because they don't want to negotiate with the army, especially the surveillance they refuse an army where they refuse so what happened is they sought out to the army crony so for exam a tele no they sought to know which group they sought to Amman, which is the Lebanese and Burmese crony and also already they sorted to another group Singapore joint venture and refusing to collaborate with the Army Tada surveillance so only actively noun is remote what remains is MPD as always know my posts and telecommunication and mindset. My TED is as I already mentioned, that code you know, to bigger Southeast Asia army, Yamada, Vietnamese Army Oh operator remain and also also their their heavy censorship on top of that, there is a lot of information blackout for example, recently there is a bomb in one of the village 100 And some people were dying and internationally known in the area and nearby village they don't know there was a big moment and there was a mascot because there is a affected information cut blackout, they deliberately cut out all the other telecommunication and also they blocked you know most of the most of the most of the SIM card most of the telephone telephone line and also only the information they got is from that via independent operator from outside. And so, there is a another challenge how do we get information from those blackout area and also Burma NUMA completely changed now, because more than 50% or territory is not under military control, it is more like see me library that either um groups or newly library that newly formed and PDF or there is a backup and look at administrator then you know, then there is a heavy or delivery information cut or the switch of a lot of area about telecommunication. So, now this now, a day you know from this given this history to the currently there is a greater demand to have a proper independence and communication means apart from these heavily army surveillance, so there is a little hope that you know that is an American NDA and Burma at somebody known as Burma recently spat out they are going to have not only that a communicate Natalie their support, mainly focus on strategic communication and Bama, but there is no clear Sparrow, but now currently, you know, the above that emigrated and emigrated and federal forces one of the biggest demand is to have a have a strategic communication and neat and then you know, own communication facility without going through an army monitor, monitor Sava or their network. So and also on top of that there is a Burma Myanmar having a humanitarian crisis 1/3 of the country. I'm talking about around 20 million people in urgent need of humanitarian aid And you know, the conflict is more than half of the country and Armenia is effectively blogging. And so, there is no information how can they get access to those you know, very vital humanitarian and delivery needs everybody talking about it and also there is a greater demand for independence information flow, especially those seemingly see me library that area or at an eel control area and needed needed need a greater communication and strategic communication needs. So, this is this was this whetted my Hungama Myanmar Suja going to be you know, so, I think there is a there is a huge gap and huge demand about this, you know, need for information flow and independent information flow what I mean is both you know, online, digital TV and also telecommunication. So, this is the this is the latest situation that you know, we are we are facing and also the on ground situation. So the one of the biggest challenges how how can you provide these you know, information needs and information, flow information to to Burma, Myanmar p, but for their day to day survival needs?
Host 31:16
Yeah, I want to go back to the start of the coup because I want to I want to try to go chronologically towards what we were laying out, we talked about the pre cell phone era, and how limited access was then the role of the tea shop, we talked about the transition when the floodgates just opened. So let's go now to the start of the coup, you know, the the coup happens February 1 2021. And there and when in the hours that the coup happened literally for several hours internet shut off all over the country. So people in the country can't communicate about what's going on. And then over the next several months, there's kind of weird things going on with the internet, there's there's a period where something like 11pm to 7am or something the the internet is consistently off in those hours. And for those of us that are overseas, we kind of as 11am 11pm Myanmar time approaches, we kind of hold with bated breath, what's going to happen that night? Because we know we're not going to be getting news. There's rumors in in those first several months that they're just going to cut internet completely like like for good. They're just going to stop all internet in the country until they get control. Can you describe a bit as far as you know about the military's thinking? Why? Why does Why does internet persist to this day? Why did they allow it? Why did they not just completely cut all access to it so that they can have a more iron rule? And why does it really exist in any form?
Toe Zaw Latt 32:38
Okay, let me recall, you know, that first day I was in Yangon, and the military groups and, you know, there were a lot of room of all the cooks. But one I know that cooks around 4am For RFS, and one of my friend who got arrested ADA generally, it's another information that I got arrested and is a military group. So I didn't believe so, I drove out I first I drive to the army headquarters and I ate mine and there is nothing happening then I drive back, but to the city hall in Yangon, then I start seeing the army trapped and there is a heavy security present, then I start right in my on my in my my Facebook account and saying that there is military groups and then suddenly I got bored, you know, locally or internationally, Quora. So what is what is going on? Where are you? I'm in City Hall, there is a heavy army present and there is a military groups that is a first way for you. And I went back to my house and I turned on television because those days DVB and also mizzima running the terrorist terrorist shirt, television licence for the ministry of information, we are running there, our our, our our television operation on the OBD platform and then suddenly dVV and mizzima Our channel is freeze and until then, you know they are they already pulled out. But that is the first response that you know, I face the information and cut off so our television signal cons overnight. And then I have a three you know three full internet access. I have both the node Telenor and BD. And so already I have a I have my own routers and stuff. They say walking and they have to I did they revoke and there was no immediate action apart from freezing our our tertiary digital TV signal. There is a limited allowance and they did much and they start announcing that they revoke our obviously revoke our license. I didn't listen much at the mud Much of May 18, you know, maybe one or two min later and then they start is that a restriction on those those other firstly go for the television of course, which is the most rich and the GJ AtariAge progress later they start going on into the internet telecom operator, namely, both you know the Telenor and Urdu and maybe they may, they may be series on negotiation, basically, I mean, want to install it Chinese or Russia, Russia, bad surveillance that has Avila sensor. So, at the beginning we had put operator reviews, you know, they need to they are obliged to protect their private data. But then, you know, of course, this is an army. And so I did everything go wrong, right after maybe four months, five months, right after the military groups, and there is a heavy demand to monitor the dissidents and Youth and Students, and also also the spring revolution. I mean, they are the, they are the main Youth and Students. And remember, there is a first time voters 5,000,001st time voters in 2020 election, pre coops, so they are the they are the main driving force of this spring revolution. They are the recorded data, they are the they are the native native Internet user, we are the migrant, and they know very well how to use internet, how to use mobile and how to use affordably not only use, you know, they are very good, this young generation, they call themself Gen Z, which is a 5,000,001st time vote and in 2020, and then one of the key presidents and 2021 military groups, so the army started realize that they somehow has to back control, but all these communication channels started from television, and then they go, they go to a telecommunication provider, and then that entity their platform, so that's how they start controlling you know, that is no wonder and pulled, you know, these two operators suddenly decide to sort out, I mean, they are very lucrative business, they are making lots of money. If you look at Burmese, these short lived for the NLD government, you know, prisoner, SATA, Bama, Myanmar, telecommunications, that I was booming. And I didn't add that telephone intensity is 120%, which mean, but by Myanmar having a two three at the center. And that data, and the telecommunication data is a lot of consuming a lot of people buying data and joining these, you know, Freedom limit as I was, when I was a younger I want to violin and Germany, I think the jungle internet is faster than Germany internet those days, I've been to Europe and we do many country, I think Myanmar was one of the faster but that overnight, they all slow down, and armies that controlling and monitoring and the manner that they are surveillance equipment will be installed. That's that's the main reason that you know those international I mean, like telling or telling are not only operating in Burma, it is a small market, they operate in Thailand and India, you have a big footprint. So you must already already also can do the desire to do so. So they are they are they are operation to the cronies and AmEx basically refuses to compromise with the the surveillance and also the privacy data to hand over to the army. So since then, I mean, it's become a very actively, you know, getting the mainly help from China and Russia, about China, they got the they got the firewall, basically to control that they are also there, and they have their own creation or they are AI and you know, and they have they do keep their soldier, online, you know, in a particular particular place. And they divide their active sidewalk and say well, in the highest level, and also they start controlling and monitoring and surveillance over the independence and operator. And also only active is only the army control mindset. And and I think after one year, and now after two years of military schools, most of the most of the television and because they revoked their Thirteen's media houses operating license, including DVB that mizzima Demand license broker's license was revoked. And 152 channels was Jay and for was K, Bama Myanmar suddenly became one of the walls was I mean, the reason yesterday, may three was at Press Freedom Day, our press three index were 173 out of 180 countries for a military coup, it was around 140. So the freedom of expression is no longer permitted. And there is a heavy censorship on top of that, there is a very going back to the old era, old days of you know, controlling of communication flow, and both TV only the state TV is available, and only only the army monitor, internet. And also they heavily monitor over the money transition. And because a lot of a lot of support, you know, from the overseas Burmese and flowing back to inside Burma, Myanmar resistant groups, so they do actively monitor on that kind of money flow, and also the information flow. And so this is you know, and now, after two years, a military group from the first day first and army do respond is of course controlling or the information flow. But good luck with that, you know, there are a lot more money option. And thanks to technology that you can bypass these days, a lot of those you know, and those control, control information flowed and Sava and an operator. So I think that is that is the current stage, but after to hear, to hear the groups, they get help from Russia, mainly Russia these days, about their psychological warfare, and also information flow. And also they got a firewall from China, and to keep their soldier defatting army, you know, go rather than have their own level rather than for China. So this is the this is the current situation. So the Army's trying very hard to control, and then communication flow information flow back to their control. But I think it is very difficult these days to do a newly developed technology these days.
Host 42:16
And in your opinion, why did they not just shut the internet off entirely because they were experimenting with having the internet shut off for half the day and then several days it was off that was in the first couple months? And then and now it's it's they they restricted in certain areas where there's campaigns, but generally the the internet's working in some of the big areas. So why why would they leave the internet on and not just shut it off completely?
Toe Zaw Latt 42:40
I think they they, if they shut it out completely, they are shooting their own food. Remember, Julian Tyson government and somewhat dogs are the government they are talking about E government and E commerce and everyday E. So most of the Business and Administration is I think slowly transformed into the the IE internet base, a base economy, for example, banking, you know, there was a lot of Kells. And they try? I'm not saying that they didn't try it. They did they did try to shut down completely, but it didn't work. Because even the banking, you know, because they freeze or they assess, and then you know, they allow only a very limited amount to withdraw. And then it is all through internet banking, or ATMs or online banking. And also, also, I mean, if you look at the Burmese passport, recently, you know, it is I mean, because of because of the military route and because of all these ego dramas, drama and mismanagement, a lot of young people are trying to leap out of the country, but then, you know, they introduced their online passport cyst, and recently I back back back in place, they tried to shut down but it didn't seem like if they are going to completely shut down their student their own food. I think most of most of the basic infrastructure, you know, from the issue in personal banking, communication, I mean, now they already somewhat transfer. It is a somewhat, you know, it's all online now. And so I think it is almost impossible to completely shut out. So what they can do only monitor and surveillance, that is the only option. And also, of course, they have to put a heavy and heavy firewall, that's the only option. It is almost impossible after like five to seven year, let's say you know, from from the 2012 to the 30 and they don't have 2021. So it's seven to eight years. Mainly internet based, you know, leap frog frog and like mobile banking, you know, the money transfer, online transfer, and also these you know, most of the processes Know the online system in place, you know, so it's almost impossible this shutdown, although I mean, really hate to see, you know, they're out of control. So I think, you know, it's a completely shut down, they should in their own foot impose overdue back to the old days or pre 2010 And no internet or no telecommunication, so I think it is a little too late and to completely shut up or they have to do all they can do this, you know, this put heavy surveillance on their system and that on the operator. And also, I mean keeping a monitor about this, Siva, online activity. So it is almost impossible to accomplish at all at this stage.
Host 45:46
One of the things they do do is they, as we've referenced several times in the conversation is they have blackouts and they've had blackouts in strategic areas in the last couple of years. But this is not new. There were blackouts in Rakhine State going years back. So, explain a bit about the history and the strategic thinking behind as well as the technical process of how they actually do it the the military use of of regional blackouts at certain times in places
Toe Zaw Latt 46:16
Okay, that is a history though, you know, no news is bad news in Burma, in the old days information blackout something bad happened like 2007 several several revolution in those days before the internet is available. So, they completely shut down everything. So, there is a saying that no news is bad news Obama. So, the same thing now, there is a very interesting specific time blackout. Now, what they do is there are many bad operator mainly for example, that is a ceremony you will receive their very weird SMS message about the missing information mainly lead into the dos and Soo Ji are very public speaker you know, some rumor widely circulated, why there is a particular time slot blackout. So, which means that there is a very active organized cyber unit operation and so, what they do, they do particular time slot and then completely blackout and then they they start producing the misinformation or rumor that they want and favor to the army some kind of they want to that is that is that is that's become a very scary operation that we are experiencing. So whenever there is internet or or telecommunication blackout, we start to say that's, you know, there will be one bad really bad they're going to happen. So, this is this is how they operate. So, until now, we keep keep our eyes on that kind of specific, you know, timely blackout that you know, when when there is a vacuum then there will be some misinformation and disinformation will be coming out of this I say what apartment this is this is the tactic that they are using. Another one is a blackout on the on the military operation. So whenever there is a heavy military operation mainly there's a guy named McGuane and chin area that is also complete blackout or full before the army heavy operation. So these are the things that you know, the way that I mean operate,
Host 48:28
right and without without putting anyone at risk or giving away any confidential information. Can you share anything you know about what it feels like to be in an area that's blacked out and how people communicate if the normal lines of communication are dropped? What what alternative or traditional or unusual methods of communication and in information flow exist in those regions where the blackout occurs?
Toe Zaw Latt 48:54
Did they is somehow you know, since 2008, nugget, there is a limited primary satellite facility available, because we know that we will use it effectively to revote as Cyclone Nargis, which is 2008. May 2, which is not not long ago. And then you know, there is there is a limit of user privacy, but it's quite expensive to operate. And there is a I'm not saying that, you know, that's why there is no way that they can completely pluck up and there is also a limited FM station may need in the in the CME library that area I'm talking about Qin Shan and currently Maguey is a guide there is a limited look at construction and operation. On top of that, there is a nation covers like mizzima is emerging in the nation, a satellite television and also also radio coverage and recent BBC media assurance survey indicated mizzima Is the The most, most, listen or receive independence information in your mouth, which is 69%. Our audience, we are talking about 28 million. There is a latest BBC media audience survey available, we were shocking to see the number followed by DVB and Quebec. So it is only the online operator. So things stay, although, you know, there is a heavy attempt to block the information flow, especially in a conflict area or, or Sydney library area, there is somehow a lot of information flow. That's almost unstopped. David, I have to put it that way via you know, satellite TV and shortwave radio and also, so the local FM station and limited limited independent satellite facilities available. So these are happening. So I think on top of that, there is of course, what amounts change. You know, there is a privately transpose system, change your information flow like old days going back, and cross border communication. I remember suffering revolution Bozo the information came out from inside Burma xmega to Thailand, I used to go to and receive most of the face to face information from the Thai Burma border and then we package in Norway ever to Burma through satellite TV or radio, that's that kind of change happening actively cross border activity also have an if you have a giga fine, or, you know, mascara atrocity, the information flowed. And so, so there are many different ways of communication. And we try very hard to get this information, information flow, I mean, continue and come in out of out of my out of country by Manemma.
Host 51:55
Now, I know in Ukraine, when that crisis developed, they immediately had access to Elon Musk's Starlink, which provided satellite internet and there have been attempts in Myanmar to try to get Starlink access in some of the regions there. What do you know about the role that Starlink has played in helping the movement in Ukraine? And to what extent it's been proposed or possible in coming to Myanmar in what would providing better satellite internet in Myanmar at this time? Do what how would how would that play I hope enroll at this time,
Toe Zaw Latt 52:31
I didn't you know, we really look into there's a styling and potential if you couldn't click styling by Manemma or even in Thailand border. They said the service is not available. But sadly, we're available in 2023 which is this year. So we're hoping that you know there will be a silent service available in Yamama. And we know that Ukraine you know Sterling have a very, very important role in terms of communication after Russia blackout there is already prepared and styling and styling is quite cheap, compared with those, you know, limited satellite facility we have I mean, I'm talking about very expensive in terms of operational weights, I'm not talking about you know 2500 US dollar to operate one one independence fees, you know, so, we are hoping that the styling were held by mom Yamaha in terms of communication flow, because they are FURever they have footprint or they need is they can expand their little network available into Burma Burma with those you know, they our own smaller I think Ku band and to feed prepay dish which is which is you know instalation feed is very cheap and so, monthly operation is very cheap compared with other like less than 400 or 500 US dollar and then you got unlimited internet access that is what we are hoping we write a lot to Aloma due to open switch on the they have what they promised that they will they will come into Burma Myanmar in 2023 So this is the right time and it's it's have a lot of I mean basically it's have it saved a lot of people life because like I said you know there is a ZG Bowman and next village they do not know because I'm a blackout information. So we they will help a lot of they will save a lot of people about their ally one instance and about their mission aeroplane bomb and also how to get access to humanitarian aid through the information. So we hope in that styling. We're coming to Burma Myanmar, as they promised in 2023 and also in Coca Cola collaborate with Bama ads and the ad which is that America to boost their strategic communication and Obama Nima and we are really needing it. Especially those you know see me library that area Like namely you know half the country you know we got a key three C Korean touching currently and chin they are almost 75% vibrated under their control on top of that there is a guy Maguey now, now the huge para xs array, they they began elaborated so we want those those satellite facility front and Starling and to come up operate in those you know and see me laboratory area. And so a way to assess you know, their their satellite, a satellite footprint and satellite coverage, I think that will help millions of people live through you know, the early one is his turn about the air raid, you know, Bowman so that also the, the information flow legend Obama's army tried very hard to block that in the help of Russia and China and also Starlink I have a lot of people live in the big city like Nero Yangon Mandalay about those heavily surveillance, and you know, monitor service that run by my entire Burmese and Vietnamese Army and run telecommute telecommunication, and service, you know, then we should have an identity service that you know, that without respect the privacy, and the booster information flow and rights to information or rights to digital digital rights. So I think this is a good timing, also very critical to the operator, like Starling, and also other other satellite commonly do come into by Manemma start operating with those semi or fully laboratory area, I'm talking about more than half of the countries and also give access to those, you know, who live under the military control to get the data needed. Communication means that's where have I think, of course, you know, because we have an democracy then federal state in Burma. And I think that will be the beginning of the another army attempt to block down pull up the information flow. So we really request those you know, not really a stallion Allama but also other the satellite operator or Delhi communicating operator to come into Burma start operating have those, you know, millions Obama in need of the Independence you know, access to essential information, and also the G The G the footprint, that will have a lot of Mr. McGraw type movement. And hopefully they will be they will be hand in hand with karma through this, you know, America and DA or Karma. I've been, you know, that will be the game changer. If we got that kind of assistance. I think, you know, of course, within one year by Myanmar will change, and we'll be the democratic country. So, we really request those you know, international operator mainly started to start operating in Burma, Myanmar, and other other other services like India, you know, that is a sealant or many other you name it. And also we really need and those you know, those independence and to operate our our radio, or our FM station, we say D internet independent internet asset. And those libraries are the similarity that area. So I think I'm really requesting those operators to think twice and each time I do an operation in Dubai, Myanmar,
Host 58:43
I mean that that does sound just enormous ly important in terms of saving lives in terms of helping the democracy movement and resisting the state control, military tyranny oppression of the people. Do you have any sense of why it's not being provided both in terms of Starlink and some of the other independent satellites as well as the NDAA, the Wehrmacht? Do you have any sense of of why it's not being provided yet? When it's so incredibly urgent or any sense of timeline as to when it will be? Or conditions involved? What are the reasons why it's not available yet? And what what do they have to work out in order to provide this access?
Toe Zaw Latt 59:22
Oh, one of the journalists named by Myanmar problem, you know, compared with Ukrainian Obama, Nima, about the intelligence and consent is outreach and do nothing. Outreach, but no action policy. It is always, you know, if you look at the UN Security Council, there is an outreach, and there is a have a really concern, but there is no action, you know, where it's compared to Ukraine. I mean, we feel like we it's again, second citizenship. So I think I mean, this is the time maybe Of course, one year is pass two years military control, I think It is we have to switch, you know, this outreach and outreach but no action policy do you know very proactive Ria, meaningful hap, especially happen in terms of strategic communication? I think that is that is a vital need if you really seriously serious about Obama NUMA setting and about boosting this information flow and boosting the strategic communication, open it up, there is already policy, us as a heavy bureaucracy, of course, that talking about us also, if they are serious about Obama policy, in terms of geopolitics, they start thinking about this series options, is that, okay, they should start off with a styling and make that happen, make that into action, not only our original, the reactive action, where we were we the game changer, I hope, you know, though, that they will still consider this essay, one of the most important, urgent need, you know, because of the spread out not only that, what do you mean, not only that, I didn't start from this information flow, strategic communication, it's a real meaningful now that there's support, and that can help a lot of, you know, early ones can save a lot of humanitarian assistance, and you know, many other will follow up. And so I think they have to be really, really consider active engagement to open up this information flow, and also the JIRA gateway. I did that with that will be the game changer or the perma Myanmar, my issues at the moment.
Host 1:01:29
Right, let's certainly hope that's the case. I also want to ask you about kind of your ideal vision of looking at flow of information and communication and Myanmar, projecting it sometime in the future, assuming a postponement of federal democracy. The reason I asked this is because we talked about Myanmar going from this extreme of heavily controlled censored limited state information, to suddenly the floodgates opening and being able to have a free flow of communication and news that's accessible and cheap as well. But along with that, you have extraordinary an extraordinary amount of media literacy, you also have military spying, and military propaganda and Psyops and so what and this is because things went from one extreme to another, and just the floodgates opened and everything came out everything good and bad all at once. So if you were to project you know, years into the future and imagine that in some way some federal democracy has come in in some some probably imperfect form but it's come in some way what how would you like to see or mold or shape the balance of people being able to enjoy an affordable and safe and private form of communication with with also unlimited access to news coming from different sources about different topics and to balance that that freedom of what they're able to access and how they're able to communicate with the state controls have a lack of spine and lack of propaganda that's that I know that's understand that's asking for a lot but in your mind what what kind of balance would you like to see in the shape that communication and access to news can take in a post Hamid our future? I didn't
Toe Zaw Latt 1:03:22
you know, I have no doubt that Burmese army were trying their best to control information flow and they were boost there they were boosted this you know, psychological warfare to what their soldier and the people what they have or Russia and China. If you look at you know, Chinese Foreign Ministry ministers and Yangon Bhama yesterday is going to India today. And then there is a heavy present in Russia. When Russia go there. Of course there is a psychological warfare and that is a cyber cyber operation you know they were they were they were trying their best to boost through to raise two for two reason. Bama nama administration, biggest defense defection there are there are so far you know more than Jonathan soja so they never be that the Heitner Marathi Fattah Amin Amin diverse gender there so they were blocked that one how do they block definitely they were do their own you know Evo rodano Keeping soldier in Sudan and digital space. So they were do and also they are admitted there is a leak interior minister. documents say that they are losing their media butter. So they need to control They even named the amounts I mean the brilliant subject and for the network or and format and they lose in the information butter. So they are going to boost and they're going to win. You know, if you look at the army budget presenting the debate, I'm talking about billions of dollar injection into the defense budget 40 CCI so the 2023 you can regard I can easily project everywhere do their best to boost the information flow sidewalk and and Nigeria welfare and by the Hubble, Russia and Russia and China, how are you going to conduct they were do they were in truth they were they were boost more or they are firewall especially make sure that there is no Amity fashion how why why soldier decided to defy I be interviewing a lot of divided soldier basically because of information they got there what is going on because of army, I mean make sure that they are watching the nobody I mean TV channels, and also they are their own telegram channel and I'm a bad tenant. But those Soulja got information out of that and that decided to defer. So this year, I mean, we're trying to pass then how are you going to count that this only way it is, you know, we have to count the weather information and operate that we have to invite we there should be more more obsessive I mean, it is a p but no profit, like I completely understand standing is a profit oriented organization. But income is why it's come to Obama it is the people first like what they did to you great. I think, you know, it's it's not much I mean, but so it is a it is a people before the profit. So I know that you know a lot of telecommunication or other company they are the primary concern is about how to maximize profit, but it is abama Myanmar. So it is a people that matter. So they have to consider you know, about at least one year. Let's see. I mean, I'm not talking about unless, you know, timeline, let's do let's see one year or those, you know, strategy, access to information, let's open it up, then you know, Burmese, we Burmese especially younger generation, we will do the job, we will bring the army into the highest division right? There is a no biggest, like region murder Bedelia Antifa DiVita happen yet only individual level of small, smaller group level, we can turn that we can turn that into the bigger, bigger, you know, disintegration of the unforce. Morally, they are really in bad shape. And we interview a lot of a lot of divided soldiers. So let's let's let's invest one year, I mean protesting from from now for at least you know this this year, let's boost the information flow. Let's let's consider you know, pick well first before the profit, I think that will be that will means a lot a lot for these democratic forces. And also be serious as you are talking about changing Obama seriously about it. And we can start from these you know, and this information gateway and especially young people, they know how to do it. I give you one specific example. And army they K they K the MPs wrap up Seattle, and what Burmese you do they put him in a games. You know, a weeks ago Burmese army has to announce not to play the game online games, that's you know, Sayadaw physically die, but on the game, he does stay alive. That's how resistant is you have to understand this younger generation, the GJ resistor, and pharma resistant change. So front edge shift in this tradition, you know, I'm resistant to there will be more cyber dissidents, there will be more Digital Designer online games is now I mean, it's really having a new burden of this, you know, online game that they're physically taking the Seattle there rapa young MP, but now he's still alive among the Burmese young people. So let's continue this kind of this kind of, you know, sidebar dissidents among the younger people. So I think it is very important. And to boost this communication projection, at least let's try for one year. And that is my my main sincere request enough, that will also mean a lot a lot for Burmese democracy and democratic movement.
Host 1:09:06
Absolutely. I mean, you've made such a case, you've made the case in terms of how important the getting access to internet is to combat the myth of the military Disinformation and Propaganda. The humanitarian crisis is going on for early warning and prevention and then you just open the door on military defection and how that one of the reason I've heard this from other guests I've been hearing this for some time that one of the reasons why they restrict access to internet is more for their own people getting access to the truth and getting beyond their propaganda of why they're justifying the killing that's going on to outside information and so access to internet can actually access to communication and news can actually help in defection which is let's face it, you know, this is this is the having soldiers put down their weapons. This is the Since the most non violent outcome that one can hope for that you don't have to, you don't have to fight a soldier, the soldier just puts down their weapon and stops killing innocent people. So if turning the internet on and turning lines of communication and information flows can do that, that's, that's a really compelling argument. And it's really sad and really, really painful to hear that this is not being done because there's just simply not enough outrage. And so we definitely encourage those people that are listening to have a little bit of outrage if you're living in the United States or in other places that have the potential of supporting Burma to be able to voice a bit of outrage to wherever you can to local politicians, or, or media or online or anywhere else about just how critical it is, and how achievable it is to get access of communication and new and information flows in these places. So that's that's all a very compelling argument that you've laid out.
Toe Zaw Latt 1:10:58
Thank you very much. Yeah, that is the message you know, help help us in this you know, information flow and the access to information and rights to digital rights that can change the world that will be the most important for for projects and what for the next year, this year and next year. And so, bear in mind that you know, this is pre revolution, or Generation Z, they are actually digital native. They are the young people who know very well how to use effective user information. So I think that I think that is also the hope for our future. My generation many ADA generation we will come from very close country we got no idea rely on software radio Burmese service BBC into your current very innovative and Dizzy than sidebar to z dot h. I did. I did. That's the beginning of the another Burmese military.
Host 1:11:56
Absolutely, those are those are good points. And let's let's hope it continues in that way. And with that, thank you so much for taking the time to explain that in detail to our audience. It was very powerful stuff.
Toe Zaw Latt 1:12:07
Thank you very much good are you met.
Host 1:12:17
as inspiring as today's guest was, I know from experience that when you're listening from so far away, there can also be a certain kind of helplessness and hearing about the people's dire struggles. But thankfully, our nonprofit offers a reliable way for interested listeners to provide financial assistance to those local communities who need it most. Your donations will be sent to support urgent humanitarian missions, as well as those vulnerable peoples being impacted by the military coup. By taking an active role in supporting the movement, you can help ensure that people like today's speaker, have even a few more resources to draw on and can manage just another week and continue in their efforts. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian immediate missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM for families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished committed military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming leads. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause and both websites accept credit card. But you can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled DTTRVURM a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar. Available at a local craft stock count. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's a local crafts spelled a LOKCR a ft s one word, a local crafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and