Transcript: Episode #150: Overcoming The Nightmare

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Thiri. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

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Host  00:14

I'm really excited to bring you the upcoming interview with a very special guest. You'll hear her discussing all the great and courageous work that she is currently engaged in. And if you feel inspired to help her continue these efforts, please consider making a donation earmarked for her projects. Or you can give a general donation that will support the wider movement in Myanmar. Our ongoing support has been so very helpful and appreciated by many Burmese struggling during these dark days. Simply go to insight myanmar.org/donation to contribute today, or stay tuned at the end of the episode to hear more options. Now let's hear from that guest herself

00:59

the greatest traders to the nation of the cowards with the loudest silence.

01:37

In my way that really had a good day. Yeah, I was good at that.

Host  02:11

I'm pleased to welcome back to Insight Myanmar podcast theory, who spoke to us last year and is going to be rejoining us to give an overview and update both on a personal level as well as where the movements at so theory. Thanks so much for coming back here and send me in my podcast.

Thiri  02:27

Hello, Joy. Yeah, thank you so much for having me again, in this in this podcast. And really, really nice to talk to you again.

Host  02:38

Yeah, so I think it's probably good to start off with where you're at, personally, because as we just talked before the interview, we were recalling the previous one last year, which I highly recommend listeners to hear it's gotten really quite a bit of feedback in that time in the past year, number 49 as the episode for those who want to go back and hear it. And that interview left off with you theory describing how you had the ability to leave the country, but you were choosing to stay at that time. And in the past year, your life path has taken you in a slightly different direction than you were thinking at the time. So why don't you start us off by just telling us where you're at and how you got there?

Thiri  03:23

Yeah, sure, yeah. Going back, like a year ago, so when I was talking on this podcast, I was, I was pretty sure that I didn't want to leave the country and, and I want to stick with my own people. And mainly because of the mainly because of my friends and also for the hope and solidarity even though I couldn't really work because that was important that time but I couldn't work for the another nine months, a little over nine months. So that actually impacted me at the professional level and I want also like personal level and I just feel like yes, I mean, yes, hope and solidarity is important to be here. But also there may be something that I can do if I am outside of the country, because the situation was that after the pockets a situation is getting worse in especially in a city and and more tighter security control and more military presence on the streets and I live with fear. You know, like, I couldn't sleep at night for many nights that because there are more and more arrests at nighttime and they they will come and you know they will come to our neighbors and they will come into our neighborhoods and like arrest People and so I can my I have some kind of the mental situation is that I didn't sleep at night and I only sleep when I see the light coming like maybe like 6am and something because even though it doesn't mean the military will not come in, arrest us at in the daytime, but at least some kind of relaxed, okay, one day is gone one night is gone, that they're not going to come for me, they're not going to convert anybody in my neighborhood. So the situation is more and more stressful. And also, they will also personally there were two time in two different houses that I live to neighborhood that I live, the soldier would come and they will come and target the people who are banging pots and pen. And, and other time they will, there was one one time, just before I left the country, they they have a new police outpost right under my apartment, it has nothing to do with me, but they will, they will provide in the security for for the for the officer from the embassy. So Cambodian embassy and so they they block the way and it's really limited my ability to function as a as in my daily life because I don't feel safe going in front of the of the police or any security forces because there's they have the impunity and they can do whatever they want to do. And I I am subconsciously caring about what I wear or like what I do and because the area where they base is right where we go and throw the trash bin where we throw the trash, and also where we go to market to so we have to go past that. And I don't feel safe at all. One younger and also I'm a woman so because they are there and then the the setup the Myanmar military donate the these guys the security forces, they are conservative. And so when they see me like wearing, even like as a woman, even though I don't do any, even though my phone can be clean, but I was worried what if I wear shorts, and they're gonna come and stop me, and they may harass me or like if I wear the mask. So if I were head, I have to be very careful in every day, whatever I do, even though they may or may not harass me, but I don't feel safe because they have guns in my neighborhood. And they're there. So I cannot really stand that fear anymore. And that fear actually limit my way of thinking and, and also, I just couldn't live in constant fear. And knowing that a lot of anything that happened to me and the fact that they were very close to me, I couldn't talk to I couldn't talk on the phone. And I I don't I feel like my space, it's been invaded, and I have to live with constant fear. Everywhere that I go, like when I go to work, when I go to downtown, I have to hide my phone and I have to clean up the thing that was all the kind of unnecessary stress. And then they we heard the story about the stop the car and I have experienced myself that they stop that car and check and everything. So a lot of fears and a lot of military presence, the security presence in town that really destroyed me and that really impact my ability to to work. And at some point I got I even got to the point that I wanted to sleep so I I drink a lot so that I can sleep but I would drink until in the morning and then so that I can get a whole day sleep so I wasn't living in a healthy living condition and I also self doubt about myself, my capacities and also like impact in mice. My self esteem that I feel completely useless that I cannot contribute anything back to my society and back to my friends and constantly living in fear. So I cannot stand that anymore. And I don't feel like it was a healthy living situation physically and mentally. And I just like to explore more What can I do outside. And on top of that, a lot of my friends by that time, most of them have already more and more friends go to the jungle and Join the Resistance Movement, or more and more friends leaving the country and or some friend being in jail. So I were worried about of me doesn't really matter at this point. And I just like to see what are the things out outside that I can do. And so I decided to do leave the country. But it was a very heavy decisions. Because the day I left was the February 2 of 9am, February 2 of 2022, which is exactly a year after the coup. So the day before February 1, we have assignment strikes in town. And so my time is Yangon, the city, it was empty. And it was that it was you know, we will show you the solidarity with the silent strikes. And that was my last memories of home. And the next day, I was flying out of the country. But then until that point, I wasn't sure whether I actually want to do leave. So I didn't happen to pack until the first of February of 2022. And that even though my flight is the morning flight the next day, so even for the morning flight I that time, we have to take the CPR test the COVID test. So if you have a COVID you cannot get on the plane. So I was Loki wishing that I had COVID and then I may not even need to get on the plane so that it won't be me it just the universities it me that, okay, you shouldn't leave the country. And you are supposed to stay. So I because I don't even have a capacity to think whether I should leave or not. Because a lot of the day was like, okay, one day I want to leave one day I want to stay. And up to that point, I got to the airport, and I was like, we I wish I have I have COVID And then it will be my fault not to leave the country it will be just the universe wanted me to be here, be with my people be with the be in the country. So I I was lucky with him. But luckily, I didn't get it. I didn't get COVID I got COVID negative so I got on the plane. So I even at the transit airport, I have a 12 hour layover in one airport. And it was still close to the country. I was thinking like, I just got back, because I still have time to go back. So for that trial hours, I wasn't really make up my mind that I actually want to do leave. And but anyway, I I just I couldn't get out of the country. And when I got out when I actually got to the my final destination. I made my mind like Okay, that's it, that's the universe wanted me to be somewhere else. So I would just do, I will just be wherever the universe wants me to be. It sounds silly. But you know, with the capacity, a lot of things going on, I just couldn't make the decision of my myself and I don't want to be guilty of not leaving and off leaving. So that was the whole process. And I am it was it was such an experience. And I didn't even want to think about it the whole flight time. So I slept a lot. I took the sleeping pill and I slept through the time so that I don't need to think about that I have already left the country. And yeah, that was the recap of why I have to why I leave the country and the the process of getting out out of the country.

Host  14:35

So in leaving the country, it's not just the emotional and psychological toll but you're also moving from a society that is very far from free to a society that's more or less free. And not just contrasting free and unfree societies but contrasting a society you're coming from which is violent, unpredictable, no safety, no security anywhere. You can't even And sleep at night, etc, etc, all the risks that you're under all the fear, the danger, everything else to go into a place where those really aren't concerns and it's a normal country functioning and whatever whatever normal is, of course no place is perfect, but you don't have the same concerns of of tears of terror and having to control everything you do and how you act and who you associate with and what you say and everything else. So do you recall anything about that initial adjustment as you as you were physically in a safer place, but perhaps mentally or emotionally or psychologically not quite understanding that and still holding the remnants of what the last year of terror has been? Do you recall anything about that transition?

Thiri  15:49

Yes, you know, the the thing is away from home, I am at this I just, I have been to the foreign country I live abroad, but this time is different because this time, um um, because I don't know when I will be able will be or can be able to go back once I leave, even though I tell my friends that hey, I and I told myself that I will be coming back just like get some fresh air and I will be coming back but in my mind, I know that it's not that possible, because once I leave the country, I'm going to start working and I'm going to involve more and in then lesser chance for me to go home with more works and everything. So it is emotionally very difficult. Because it's about you know, like it's about losing home. And it's like we're like plant that is taken out from the soil. Because home is land, it's not about the society itself is all together you know, even if everyone in the country moves to setting place and last call it home, let's call it Myanmar. Because all my family is and everybody is here, it will it will never be the same because land is very important. Land is a memories a lot of a lot of the things say just not just physical bodies you know, we're not moving physical body it is there a lot of attachment here a lot of memories, a lot of stories and a lot of a lot of things happen on that land. But knowing that our home disappear, even if we go back to the same land with the same society, it won't be the same it it will never be the same. So a lot of before that since before that point I really didn't understand the feeling of being an anxiety even though I am still an anxiety dial you know I can I still have a chance to go back if I want to because I'm not having any direct security risks yet. So I can go back if I want to. But the thing is, you know you are moving from one place human and attachment and memories and friends and little things. It's all matters. But we are just taking out from our own place you know, somewhere family a place because of the violence perpetrated on us to our home. So it's it is very difficult and on top of that there was this kind of guilty feeling, especially after I left things or I heard things are getting worse with the situation of not having electricity. I couldn't talk to my family all the time because of the day and night difference and also they have a power cut and they the the Wi Fi and conditions and everything things are getting worse and given the economy down for and security and everything it just I just feel part of me feel like oh my god, am I being selfish to the all of them like that. In here I am in an uncomfortable place and safer. I can sleep well. But they may not be able to do that. So that though a lot of transition it was the you know some of the day I just feel I know I shouldn't be guilty because the point is that, you know, I have to continue working. So all I can say is that since I left, my soul is not there is not here with me, something is missing. And I don't know what that is. But also something is missing. But it doesn't mean that I'm not happy or anything here where I am now. But I, it's, it will never be the same. And also, the situation that I ended up here, it's not like what I imagined, because as somebody who can come, who can go abroad and settle abroad, with because of my professional background, or because of my connection, this is not how I wanted to come, the process matter. And that's also impact me as well. And because when I come back to my friends, I don't want to share that another tragedies tread the tragedy in the story of tragedy or anything, I just want to tell like, oh, yeah, you know, here's my adventure, I had this what happened during the pandemic, and all that kind of catch up, but not in a way that he I have to leave the country because our country screw up again. Yeah, so the process is very, you know, very important and also feeling like losing home, it will never be the same. And my family is still there. And I don't know how and when I am going to see them. And, and while I'm here, one of my aunts and Uncle die, passed away with with help situation and see them. And I don't know, and a lot of my friends, I may not be able to see them again. So it's just physically safe and everything just better off here. But still, it's it's not necessarily guilt. But it's also feel like emptiness in me. That just I don't think that will ever be recovered. Even if I can go back home. At some point, it will never be the same.

Host  22:17

Yeah, yeah, as you're saying that I'm recalling how this just the difference between those who are affected and impacted by the terror going on in Myanmar and those that are not so much. And I personally speaking I'm enormously privileged in terms of what ability I haven't been over I was I was stuck over here when the pandemic broke, even though I was living basically living there before then, but was was out of the country when the pandemic broke. So I was stuck here when the coup happened. And even if I had been there, there's obviously I have a lot of privileges that those in the country don't have. And yet, when the coup broke, I was just, I was so devastated and so affected and was, was living in this other reality. And I remember, one of my very, very close friends that was in the US was later confided in me several months later that he he was being quite compassionate at the beginning, when I wasn't really returning his messages like I usually do and wasn't asking about his life. And was was slow on everything and sometimes out of touch or not answering questions for for long periods of time. And he later said that, that it was starting to test his patience and that he had given me this this kind of buffer, knowing how terrible this was and how I was impacted and helping the situation. But it reached a point where it was just getting harder on him for the friendship. And we're very close. So we talked it through. And we were trying both trying to explain our different sides. And at one point, I said something to him that really was a light bulb going off. And that's why I share this whole story here is that this this one way of phrasing it really stood out in trying to represent what it's like for those coming from Myanmar, in Myanmar with deep connections with Burmese people or the country in one way or another. And, and the distinction between that group and those that are virtually living on touch lives that that barely even know this is going on. I said to him something like well, at the end of the these the stream of conversations, I put in such a way of like, well, I guess for me, it's I'm sorry, but it's just like World War Two is happening. And I don't really know how to apologize for World War Two impacting my life the way it is, and you're not having to face it. And that immediately lit him up into like, Oh my God, oh, and he had been following Myanmar. This was not new for him. But it was somehow putting in that terms because World War Two was such a cataclysmic event that wherever you were living your most places you were living, your life was just irrevocably changed. There was nothing you could do about it. You were just suddenly plummeted into a new reality that you had to face confront. And even though as I as I go on to say And remind I was living in such privilege and such and not facing nearly what people in Myanmar are facing, but what I was facing was so much further than what he was that how I was being impacted with so far beyond how his life was, was still continuing on a normal course, that that kind of awoke him to the fact that that I was now living in World War Two, this was a reality, we both had to accept, and somehow manage our friendship going forward with that understanding. And that kind of cataclysmic change that I was in where his life was, if you want to take the metaphor further was the Sunni American 1950s. And, and that was our divergence. And so I think of that with you, and with coming from actually being in Myanmar and being in situations of such unsafety, and danger and fear, and then trying to coming out of World War Two, if you want to carry that analogy, and then physically coming out of it, but mentally and with your friends and family in the country itself, that reality of the conflict being so real and present.

Thiri  26:15

Yeah. So before about this multiple reality, before talking about my adjustment here, I also want to bring you back to where I was in the country. So even in a country, I will admit that my situation is not as bad as other people, you know, I still have my own life. Yes, we have a military presence and everything and, but still, I would operate my life in a certain way, it's not normal, normal, but it's more like a new normal, we have, you know, engagement, I will hang out with my friends, I will go, I will go and I will sometimes travel, and I will I will live because one I cannot die I will live. So, so but you know, there are times that we will love their time that we will sing. And then we'll tie that we will just like getting drunk and doing crazies and everything, you know, we do a lot of I did a lot of the things even in the country, but if you see, you may see more and more people acting like normal, walking on the streets and celebrating or whatever, just acting they will run in their normal daily life. That was I was running my normal daily trying to be living, even when I was in the country, even though in the middle of the all the tragedy, I just want people to understand this the days everywhere there is a multiple, true multiple phases, even in a conflict. So we are not the victim. So I am not the victim. So yeah, I will be loving and I will be doing all like hanging out friends and everything. But when you see the picture of us like this, it it also doesn't discount the, the you know the level and intensity of the tragedy itself. It just that that's another face of us. And so I just want to admit that even in a country, my life is not like miserable every day. There were days very bad, especially nighttime, they were very bad because I couldn't sleep. But at the same time, there were days that I mentioned as a normal human being. And trying to be like normal, even though it's not normal, like more like new normal. So every everything that we do have a multi multiple, you know, multiple truth. So I just want to emphasize because because usually in terms of the people fleeing the country, or people in a complex society, and those people who have never been living in this complex society or who have never experienced this, they have a certain image of us. They have the people in a complex society, like oh, you know, they must be poor, they must be crying. And when they see us laughing when they see us making jokes, they feel like frustrated. They were like, oh, maybe the suffering is not even real because they are loving, which is not true. Because those are two different things are just like you guys, just like or who are in a peaceful situation because even though things are hurt, we don't cry every day. And because we need to. So it doesn't really discount our suffering or anything just because we are trying to live our life. So that that's one thing I just want to emphasize. So because I want to admit that My life is not that, you know, not that horrible, even though it is very bad. But again, I'm way more privileged than a lot of people, a lot of my friends who are living in a jungle eating only banana stem and, and running away from the shell limbs and everything, but even then they will, they will time that they smile, and they make jokes and they sing and they perform, whatever so. So I just want to make sure that people have a deep, make sure that we have a multi multiple phases in in the way of living and conflict, not just single storytelling, like, Oh, if you're in this conflict, you have to be miserable. That's not the case. So I just want to, I'm not like I wasn't like this. And even though there's a security risk, but still I can navigate, I couldn't navigate it if I wanted to live in the country, but still discount my suffering, or my mental well beings and everything. So that's one thing. So the same thing, when I come here, people who doesn't know the level and intensity of our suffering, they, it's it in the way trauma works is not just you are set all the time, it just some trigger. And so for me here, because I cannot die. It is and also I cannot go back home, I have to make anywhere I come as home, I have to create a new space, for me to be safe for me to be mentally safe. And for me to be comfortable. And for me to make friends. So so I'm living. But again, the way trauma works is not like I'm constantly set or constantly feeling bad or feeling guilty. It just here and there. Some incidents come in some trigger come in it just kicking. And so. So my way of adjusting for now, I've been here for a while. So there will be time that I don't feel anything at all. And I don't, I was numb. And I don't remember a lot of the things happen in my happen in the past years. My memories, I've been losing a lot of the memories that some of the things I just feel like, oh, it's been forever, like for either my the memories of COVID the pandemic? I don't recall it, because I feel like it's forever ago. And, and the code itself some of the memories I forgot. And in and sometimes I forgot some people are gone. And I will still think that their life or their around. I will Oh yeah. We should talk to this person. Oh, yeah. Let's talk to like my grandma, for example, my grandma and my dad already passed away. But sometimes I forgot that I was like, Okay, let's, uh, yeah, I can. I can ask grandma on when I call my mom. I was like, How's grandma doing Sunday? So things are more like scheduled for me since I got here. So yeah, but most of the I'm fine. You know, I'm like, I live my life. And I just do and I operate at normal. But some of the day there's some trigger come in, and I really melt down and I let myself go. And I they will I let myself cry. And sometimes I will love it. Just don't hold myself to be strong or anything. I let myself to be vulnerable at any point. Because I want to live and I feel I need to live. So. So that's how I'm how I'm adjusting. And the analogy of World War Two and everything. Yeah, I mean, you know every because I don't experiences, it cannot really draw a parallel or comparison to it. But my experience is still is that I'm not I want to admit that I am not unhappy every day. There will be days that I'm extremely happy and I enjoy my time. But there were a day that I don't feel good at all. And there were days that I am extremely guilty. There were days that I feel like Why yes, I need to live. So it's a lot of up and down journey. And I am trying to catch up with every day. But all I can do is that I am living every day. I've relive again came every day. So that's how I have been adjusted, if it makes sense.

Host  35:07

Yeah, it does. And I just have one more question on this before we brought it out and take a wider view of what's been going on overall in Myanmar, just for many people that especially younger people, such as yourself that when this coup hit it was so few people had lived through anything like this in Myanmar, there was an institutional memory of previous generations and things people have been told that sometimes even the younger generation was doubtful and told because they hadn't experienced themselves. But that's not the case for you with as you went into your background and our interview last year, your experience as a as a fixer in journalism, going seeing the Rohingya camps, reporting on the military atrocities over the 2000 10s in documenting human rights abuses and other things, meeting victims as well, and learning about the atrocities soon after they took place and trying to report on them. You had ample experience of all kinds of reading of testimonials of interviews of actually site visits of helping to compile reports or articles. So you're quite different from many other people that this was thrust upon, you had some level of experience of knowing the very bad things that your country military, your country's military has done to minorities throughout the country. And so I'm just curious how, what it's been like for you to call upon this, this experience and this knowledge that you had before the coup. So in some sense, you you knew you know, what they're capable of very well in extraordinary detail. And you know, that this same brutality, and fear and terror is coming now to the cities in the Bomar population. And as it comes, you're seeing parallels of what you've been reporting and documenting for years. But the difference is that in those previous years, there was some degree and you acknowledge this in your past interview, there was some degree of safety and privilege that you always had, and that your friends and family always had, to some degree, that in some of these outlying areas, they did not. And now that privilege has all been erased, we're seeing towards the Bomar people as well as the minorities and in the cities as well as the ethnic countryside. We're seeing the same tactics being used. So what has it been like for you for someone who had this knowledge and experience and understanding in a professional setting and personally in terms of the people you would meet and talk to? And yet you would never face that yourself as a victim or your family and friends as a victim? Did that background help you to adjust and to understand or was it still something of a transition even with the intellectual understanding, to actually physically and psychologically go through that, that experience of of being targeted and living in unsafety? How was how would you contrast the actual experience of being in that position from after years of documenting and knowing about it?

Thiri  38:18

Yeah. So even though Yeah, I have a prior knowledge of the military brutalities. And, you know, I have not that I witnessed, but I did documented and I know how evil they can be and how they, they you know, they can be brutal. But again, before that, let me clarify, I don't want to call the name military, because military isn't. It's an operation with the proper chain of comments and following the policies and protecting the people. And this is not a military, this is a group so the current in the country, so I will want to call their name Syd debt, instead of giving them the legitimacy as a military. It just you know, it's a debt. So I will start from now on I will keep calling them to debt. That's funny. So yeah, so for me like yes, I know this. I chose to not, I didn't experience it myself, but I was more like secondhand. Listen to the stories and I know how much SciTech can be like how brutal they can be. So I know that but even so. It doesn't really helped me easier with the transition. Even a person like myself, who has that pre year, prior knowledge and more already expected brutality from the CIT debt. It's already too much to take in, because the level and the intensity and the scale of the violation that the Siddha is doing Now, it's beyond human imagination. It is. It is too much like, Yeah, before they did that, but now it's more like a full blown and they are clearly targeting any civilians as their enemy, the way when you see the way they target people and when you see the way they operate, it just they see us as some kind of enemies, complete enemies and and they wanted us to they want you to feed us. So that was you know that was that every day that just coming a lot of the violations and amount with the level of the full blown. It's really difficult. And also like before, as I said, you know, I was privileged enough when I go to the other other conflict areas, and I do the research, and then I can leave and yes, let's say I do the research in Mount Dora, which is in northern Rakhine State. And then once I get back to situate or younger, I am living in my you know, having going to my hotel room having champagne. And yeah, you know, this happened and that happened. But this situation when I actually be in a situation, it's totally different. And I kind of disgust myself in reflecting on what I have been before. Because when I was not in any situation myself before I just, even though I know there is a sense of urgency still, like, you know, I don't have much of the seriousness in the situation. But now when I'm in actually in a situation, I really want to get thing resolved. And I feel the sense of urgency in I cannot even stand the the word like research, let's do the research on that. I just like I was so mad like, No, we don't need research, we need the result, like do something about this, you know, there's an elephant in the room, let's just do it. So the difference is that before Yes, I was frustrated with the, the way international community are the way stakeholders engage with the human rights violation of the ethnic minority. This time, it's way more, because I'm actually in this situation, I'm way more frustrated, and I was angry. And so more thing that I have is not only that tragedy, not only being sad or something, it's also having anger, and also hopelessness. Because before at least I feel like okay, I can help something. But now that I feel like, I cannot help and I am useless, and I cannot really contribute much. So it's very even a person like me, it's very difficult to adjust, even though I already know, the atrocity that the debt has committed. And also, personally like the execution of the four activists, and two of them, is personally very close to me. And especially with Jimmy and he was like my father. And, and I know the family, I know that family members of both, both of them go to me and go to the door. In I have known them since I was younger. And, and so I have never experienced that in my, in my past experience when I document people, most of them, I may not know that before they won, they were alive. So but this time, I have never imagined in my life that I would have to document the violation. The Killing commenter tubes, people who were very, very close to me, so it's definitely something different for me. And yeah, that was that was the most difficult I will say in the past, I would document to go to Rangers areas or Rakhi or shin area, I may not necessarily know them personally, I don't know them as a person. So but this time, a lot of the people that I'm documenting are people that I know enough to picture them as as person. So that's the main difference and that's impact me a lot. And especially for the execution that we don't see the bodies and everything that I've been dreaming about it I've been like about the living with hoping desperate that at one point, I was no key, hoping that oh, you know, they live somewhere. And then other parties, I know that that is so brutal, they're gonna kill. So it just, it's a mixed feeling and very difficult to explain how it goals. But it's completely different from my past experience documenting for the other people.

Host  45:26

Right just to refresh for listeners who aren't caught up on all these details. And we did have an episode about this several episodes ago, there were four democracy activists that were sentenced to die and in fact, were hanged by the Sadat and two of them were very prominent democracy activist coup, Jimmy and they are thought one of them was active from the 1988 uprising, which was the the previous major democracy movement. And the second was basically the guy who brought hip hop into Myanmar, and then became a member of parliament with NLD. And as brutal and as terrible has these events have been since the coup and even before the coup in the ethnic areas, this death sentence being carried out was truly a line that was crossed in terms of using state apparatuses and sham state trials as a cover to basically commit murder. With the authorization of a state this was condemned severely all the way around. So that's just to catch our listeners up to date, who might not know exactly what that case was. And definitely encourage people to listen to that episode, or Google and find your own information. There are many articles about it and the leading newspapers around the world. But getting back to this execution, we don't need to talk about the wider case, which has been covered so much in our previous episode, as well as in articles that people might find online. I think going back to your relationship here, I think is what is especially important in looking at at the moment because you in your career in journalism and human rights and everything else, these were icons to you. And they were not just icons of inspiration, in terms of what they were doing at a national level. They were certainly that but they were also as you said, they were fathers or uncle's or older brothers or mentors, whatever word you want to use in terms of how they guided you and taught you things that that that created a real tenderness and in who these were as humans and as people and knowing their families. And so coming back down to that level, I know this is I'm I'm hesitant and careful because I don't want to say anything or ask anything of you that would trigger you and I definitely invite you to not comment on things that are a bit too hard and too raw to cover right now. But whatever you're able to describe or take on in terms of what it what it was like for you personally to go through the process of them being arrested being sentenced not knowing if they would if they if this would actually be carried out or if it would be computed or something else in some way and then seen and then the event unfolding and the aftermath of that just whatever whatever you feel comfortable being able to take on because I understand this is an extremely difficult topic.

Thiri  48:34

Yeah, it is actually a very, extremely difficult subject for me to talk about, but I also feel like it is important for their story to for the process to be shared, because we don't because all of us, including the family members, we want the very strong by the way, the you know the family member, the wife, very strong human being like they, they military killing is to put the fear on us and they wanted us to stop working and stop fighting for the family, especially the mothers and wife, all these women, these incredible women, they keep us they told us to keep moving and they told us to every you know they will give in a guidance that tell us to keep loving each other keep resisting and keep consolidating. So the message was very powerful. So to honor them and and also the sacrifice of the activist themselves not the sacrifice or not to being j we need to talk about this and as much as it is difficult for me that this new Hate to be disturbed, the story needs to be spreads and, and the wall needs to know that this is just the pure mother. And this is the extra judicial killing of the activist spying, the sitter and this is the this is the evidence that will be served. At one point in the court. This is the mill, this is a Siddha and me online, openly commit to and this is like clear as evidence that they commit the crime against humanity, and doing the extra judicial killing. And also, the process of killing is still it's it's very inhumane, I will say, that was after. So the going back to the situation was that they were arrested for being accused that they involved in the incitement of violence, and again, targeting against the Security Security outposts. So they were arrested, and they couldn't meet a family member, the family members and the lawyer, the lawyers couldn't meet them for the eight month for the whole eight months that they will, that they were arrested. And so family members and the lawyers or any none of us know exactly, where where they were. And then they were given the death sentence by the, by me minus the debt, and then by the regime, and then we couldn't meet and, and for like eight months. And then after that eight months, one evening, they came to the home of the family members, and they told they told their family members that they can meet that come and meet them at the prison at 6pm in the evening, and it's on Friday. And then you can have a video call with them. So they could meet, the family member could meet the Meet the activists over the video call with the president of them of the prison official, and one of the one of the one of the person who got executed, he couldn't even meet his family, because his wife is also arrested and was also in prison in another another town, and that three people but the mothers and their sister one and meet them in the in the prison. And so the family member keep asking them that if they will be executed, is that why they were meeting them, and then the prison official told them that it wasn't the case they said that they would inform if they will actually be executed. So everyone thought that Oh yeah, you know, they will be they, they have a chance to meet them again. And then they will be like the even even the person who will to be executed. They have no idea that no idea or awareness that they will be executed the next morning because they will ask you according to the testimony of the family member and the video interview of their family member the these people told them to all the family members to bring some stuff that they need it for the for the next time visit. For exam I go kill the I thought the the rapper he asked his mom to bring the English dictionaries and and and the reading glasses a cetera and the other person asked for the to to pace and to brush and shoes and slippers something like that they've been asking. So it shows that they have no idea they will be executed the next day. And and so we will kind of relieve that when we could see them we were like okay, yeah, the family will also relieve that we can see them they Okay, at least they're still alive. And there's a chance that they may be seeing them again in the next visit and something so the hope was up that oh yeah, we will be seeing them again and they are not going to be executed and we will we feel positive about it every one week one. I mean, we like the family member and us who are closer, we will kind of positive about this. This is a good thing. That's a good sign even though they cannot meet the lawyers because the reason that they couldn't meet the lawyer that's why they couldn't really appeal for the for the execution order. And so, so mill the sitter has been tricking away and they even trick the family member to come and meet and just to show off that they have done the fair trial and they follow the procedure which they didn't they just fake it they they just bring a family member and they brought Hold up for everybody. And then the family didn't know, these people were executed until Monday when the newspaper announced it. So until that time family will have no awareness that the execution happened and where, how did it happen? Where did it happen, and they asked for the bodies, and the prison refused to give the body back. So until now, we don't get the we don't get the bodies, and we didn't get the clear answer of what happened to them. So clearly, it was an extra judicial killing, done by NASA. And so they have to take accountability for that at some point in the future. And they have, they will be punished for that. And also, the thing is, you know, for me, like it's a human level, I was ill by this behavior, it was, it just reminds me of how NASCI trying to lower the Jews into the gas chamber during the Holocaust, like, it should be short, like it was, they will naturally lower the juice to be like some juice, like, okay, you can work you, if you have that capacity, you can work but we need to dis, we need to disinfect you, and you need to go to that chamber to disinfect you, and then you can work so people go in there without knowing that they will be killed. And so that's very inhumane. Not that remind me how they did that is how they carry out this execution. That reminds me so much of the Holocaust. And that struck me the evilness of how human can be if they needed to kill, they should just kill it. But they shouldn't lower and hopes up for the family member. And then so and then living with this kind of hope and despair is extremely inhumane. And it's exactly how Nancy did it to the Jew, during the Holocaust. So sit down have to be removed from the political space. Not because not only because they are the dictator, as a human being, as they shouldn't exit, they these this kind of human being, the society should not accept a setback at all. So they should hold up be held accountability for their action. That's why Myanmar people needs to be supported needs to be held.

Host  57:45

Right. Yeah. And that's that's bringing in another world war two analogy here to back to the horrors that happened during the war, and that people in Myanmar currently confronting just trying to grasp for some parallel that our listeners would would have a collective and shared understanding to be able to describe just some inkling of how truly awful it is there. And I think that's a good segue into looking at what you've already referenced several times on this call is, your friends that are in the jungle, and your friends in the jungle are part of a much, much wider, I don't know if anyone knows the numbers, I'd be curious to hear if you have any estimate or approximation of what numbers we're looking at, but more important, just on the level of, of what happened in terms of the transition from non violent protests, which is basically when we talked last time, we spoke just months after the coup developed. And at that point, there were large nonviolent protests that were going on in the streets, and that were showing resistance and nonviolent resistance in many levels. And there was a hope among many people, and probably not all, probably not someone like you who had the knowledge and experience of who this enemy was. But for many, there was a hope that there could be a sense of a shared humanity of a civil disobedience of a way to be able to communicate one's non compliance. And there there were masses everywhere in solidarity that were appearing on the streets, almost like a carnival or festival flare at the beginning. And when the when the military crackdown, it was awful. It was it was just awful. It was shooting people in the head on the streets, beating people to death in broad daylight and abducting people and locking them away in the prisons, and just on and on just terrible, terrible incidences that happened that made it no longer safe for people to go out in any numbers. And that then transitioned into people realizing that they had a choice to make of how or if they wanted to continue that resistance and what ways they could and many of them at that point, chose to seek a way of armors that stance and to go to the ethnic camps to be trained and to found these local PDF groups, the People's defense forces, along with other kinds of resistance units, and many of these resistance groups are now still continuing the same struggle to seek their freedom. But to do it through other means, because the non violent way has been closed off in many ways, not entirely. Of course, the CDM civil disobedience movement of people not going to offices still isn't a fact. And there are other ways as well. But this alone, people began to realize when you're facing this evil of the Sadat, and basically what amounts to a fascist society, it's going to be very hard to find a shared humanity through any kind of civil discourse. And so other means are going to have to be necessary in order to try to uproot this, this this depression that's going on. And so that's, that's more of a general overview for listeners that might be tuning tuning in and out of the Myanmar conflict. And catching us up to date on when we spoke last, maybe you could take over from there and fill in anything you'd like to add about what that transition has been like, to the formation of some of the armed resistance units and any thoughts or opinions or perspectives you might want to share? That might be new, or a different way of looking at things for our audience.

Thiri  1:01:26

Yes, so going back, we have to I will be doing a quick overview, quick overview of the, of the movement itself. So the you may, many of you may see this, this woman dancing in front of the parliament, like one, there was a coup happening at the background. That's a battery of what our life looks like, the day before the first of February, we have no we it was we just slept in the next day, boom, there was a coup and we have no idea we will very much like this woman dancing with the background of the coop, because that that's pretty much the accurate picture of what was what happened that time. And then and then you know, as always, we will like come out on the street, and people started doing the new environments, move resistant, like we started banging pots and pen was at 8pm Every night, which lasts for many months, even and the situation was very difficult. We never failed to people never failed to bend pots and pen at 8pm every night. Because the idea is to kick the evil out tonight. So that very traditional way of thinking like the evil out of the neighborhood, you have to bend the pots and pans so that the evils gonna go away. So that's one form of the very, very first form of the civil disobedience movement and follow by the government officers walked out of the office. And pretty much I think, according to some data by the by the people who are working with us civil disobedience movement, they are about 80% of the of the government stuff, walked out of the office, and later followed by the military soldier and other security forces. They also walked out of the office up walk out of their their Perec and they joined the civil disobedience movement. So that was the beginning. And then people started having the protest street protests has been very, very vibrant and very dynamic and very creative. Like we will you can see some videos, young people were dancing in young flesh smoke in different form. At the beginning, it was more as a festival than the than the actual protests because we were there and it was it as much as it was dangerous. But also it was kind of fun. That thinking about it. Because it was like even when the military started shooting us with the student protester with the rubber bullet, it was those they were kind of kinda like it's stupid. It's silly to think that way but also funny. It's kinda like, Hide and Seek que so the protester, young, mostly young people, they will go to the they call it a battle zone, like there was some zone that they go there and people go there before 9pm And they were dressed up like you know, like, cover them with the shoes and eye shields and goggles and everything because they want to stay away from them. tear gas and rubber bullets and everything. So they will be ready. by 9pm and all like the sheet You will and normal protesters and everything and they have the they have their own way of protection. And then after 9pm The soldier or the security forces will come and then they will shoot them and they will shoot the protester and the protests are going to be ran away into the neighborhood and in my neighborhood like in my mom's neighborhood parents that older people will be the older generation people will be waiting downstairs with a bucket of water and an tower and loads of Coca Cola bottles because Coca Cola reduce I heard in the US you use the milk during the job like protests like the point that he I guess happened before us we use a Coca Cola. So to wash them off and we have a medics and everything. So it was scary at that moment, but also kind of fun in a way like people will come in like mothers are the elderly people grab the young people like take off stuff and like okay, let's wash off your face and bring them into their homes. Like we my mom, my mom, she brought a lot of young people keep in her homes and our other houses as well. Like we lock our our doors like the the apartment building so that the soldier cannot come in and we just hide. So it was more like hide and seek gain. And then one the one protester come into your home, you just you're there, my mom is my my mom and my aunt, they were they became Pro that I visited them one time. And then they will like when they won that protest call me with a shield and everything they were making, like how they ingest the, you know, fashion behind the fashion, show it one person take off the goggle one person take off the shield and hiding. And they automatically change it into the home clothes. So that even if the soldier come they can say like, Oh no, this is my nephew. So that's what they wanted to do. And my mom's always cook the noodle have really big bowl of noodles every day, because you wanted to feed the kid to all the other people do different things I you know, they you will, you will get food or other other kinds of support. So I see that love, you know, that is important that I want to highlight. So when I tell the story about Myanmar, I don't want to just, I don't want to talk about the language of tragedy about people, you know, we deserve because we are just like you guys, we are just like other people. And look at how how much we love each other how much even in the middle, even though we know that there are a lot of risks involved. People were united against the regime, and people were helping each other people were supporting each other strangers, love between strangers, kindness between strangers, solidarity between strangers, that is very important in I want to keep that spirit alive. So that's all forms of non violence, civil disobedience movement, that count. And so I want to highlight it here because that's very important for us. But anyway, so this is how we were the beginning. And and also it was like the soldier would come from nine to six and there will be more like a battle going back and forth. And then after sick, they go back to Iraq, and we all go back home. And and we will be trapped at home and stranger's home we can run into it and they will change they will and they will chain our dresses and everything. And then that was the beginning of it. And it was more like office work. And after six periods as i Bye bye and people go to the big stations or like bars or something just out but it doesn't discount how scary the situation it's just another reality. And so it was artists and later on we couldn't really do that anymore because military is targeting more and more in the study also use the real bullet the life round and shoot the head. And then that more and more fear among the people and they also do the cultural punishment like if you keep your protester in your home, they will confiscate that home and they will arrest the family member that take care of those people. So more and more people the public space is shrinking and people will like you know, they have their own reasons that go back and also younger people they need to do they cannot live in the city anymore. They cannot live at home anymore so they have to leave to the jungle and and then the situation is that even if they wanted to come back military with Military and also your neighbor. They also do like a neighbor watch system, and we call it the land like informant. You don't know who they are, they are like, they can be like your friends, but they are in your neighbors that they can report to the military. And then the military is gonna go the whole family. So younger people, even if they wanted to come back, they don't want to join the resistance, there is no other option they it was completely a jungle situation, whether you protect yourself or you got killed. So that was a situation was very much like jungle Django law situation. So that for the young people to the jungle and aamra this and became the options for young for many young people, many of my friends do do that, because they cannot come back home. So since then, the the movement have more into the into the arms resistant, and more into the form of violence. But at the same time in the city, the civil disobedience continue until today, a lot of people don't go back to Office and the government operation, then the ridging operation is almost stop. And also, people have been buying counting businesses associated with the minute associated with the debt and all that kind of thing. And street protests and everything happened. But the street protests are also more and more dangerous, because military would the debt I mean, the debt which us the rent over the protester, young protester, and they will also incident that they use excessive force. And that leads many young young people, some young people running, jumping off of the road of the roof, and, and a lot of incidents happen. So but the number islands protests, the space is getting shrink, because military is brutally targeting the people who are going to hold the any arms, and they will accuse them of involving in the armed resistance. And at the same time, we have a full blown we are the country with a civil war, one of the longest civil war in in the world. But this time is different that we have a full blown civil war, people who have never joined the who have never seen arms or guns before they started holding guns and fighting back. And it's what I the numbers that I'm saying it's a millions of young people who are supposed to be cool, who are supposed to be at work, who are supposed to be enjoying their life, at the bar or club, whatever. But now they have to hold on and live in the jungle. And that's the situation. It is very much like Ukraine and Russia Russians war. But the only difference is that Russian is Russians and Ukraine, why is clear that it is a foreign invasion. And for us the 10. But it was buying our own debt killing our own people with our tech. And they are also using the air strikes. violation. So the UN also they would do the they do exactly how Russia do it to Ukraine. And for us, it's more like Ukraine civilly and like all the civilian, raise the fun together and support each other and fighting against the brutal nasty, that sit down. So that we are here we are talking about the imbalance warfare. And this is not the political crisis, a lot of the international government and in the SciTech apologists, they like to downgrade our crisis as the political crisis. But this definitely is not the political crisis. This is the humanitarian crisis we are doing with the fascists that sit down, who doesn't care anything about any civil ends? So I will like to use this as an overview of the situation.

Host  1:14:12

Yeah, right. Thank you for that. And I think it's worth examining this development of what's come to be the coalition of armed resistance, whether it's aOZ, the ethnic armed organizations, or whether it's PDFs, the People's defense forces and some ways in which there they they collaborate and cooperate and their various operations, and then of course, where the energy comes in. I think it's worth examining this in a bit more detail, especially for the audience who hasn't been following it so closely, because I one of the things we've seen in this transition is that for months and months after the coup, you had the the democracy activists requesting pleading for help of any kind anything from RTP En un, US you just anything that any any group or organization or body that would substantively come to be able to offer some kind of assistance beyond just the typical grave concerns and deep condolences and whatever else, and really nothing came. And then when the it was no longer possible to seek these nonviolent means of resistance, and even of protecting oneself and one's community, and there became some form of, of greater defensive units that were protecting their, their communities, you started to see commentaries of Oh, violence on both sides, and we want to see both of them be able to talk and work it out. And that condemnation of, of this, this will just make things worse, and you need to be more patient and, and everything else. And in some degree, I guess, if you want to make excuses for them, or try to understand that side, for those that aren't falling it so closely, you could say that, that that that one might just have a general non violent attitude and not wanting to encourage violence in any forms. Although it does come across as somewhat tone deaf and not really respectfully or accurately charting the trajectory and development of what has happened to this point. And at its worst comes out as just extraordinarily hypocritical and misunderstanding, really all the efforts and the pleading for outside support that never materialized. And this ended up being somewhat of a last resort. And yet still, we see either overtly stated explicitly, or something more implicit, that is going back to this, both sides argument, both sides need to need to be able to tone down and to, to come back to the table and to try different methods. And so to me, this has come across as just extraordinarily disrespectful, and real slap in the face for not really understanding how we got here. And just trying to give these platitudes from a position of privilege and safety without really any regard for what what people have been striving for for so long, and where they're at now. Because there there was really no outside support or other options that were given to them.

Thiri  1:17:27

Yes, that's a good point. And I really want to address that. Because first, I want to say like, personally, I don't support any environments. I am not a violence person. And also I don't like war, I have seen it. I have worked in there. And I was one of the person who will one the one the movement was at the trajectory. I was one of the person who keeps saying i Hey, you know, trying every possible way not to go to the war, because war is not just like in Marvel movie, okay, let's come and fight and like, Oh, yes, happy nd that's not how the world works. Once the conflict started, it's very difficult for us to get out of it. And there is consequences of mental cycle, psychological, physical, and a lot of things involved in the post war and a lot of grievances and that can also create another conflict. So I am personally opposing the idea of war. And ideally, a lot of my friends who are also joining the armed forces, they wanted to avoid war like ideally, myself and people that I've been talking to you my friend. Ideally, we want everybody to go home and get a good rest and get a good time with their family member and eat with the full stomach including the Sadat soldier, you know, we we were fighting not because we hate them or anything, they are also the military Soldier The soldier soldier needs to understand that they are also the victim in the system. We are fighting this for the freedom of every everyone including them. So ideally I want I don't I want everyone to go home and I want to have my own life. I want to chill I want to you know, I want to hang I want to you know, have a love live I want to be with my partner and I want to with my family and I want to eat well sleep well without necessarily thinking to talk about this violence or weapons or something because that's not what we sign up for. And I have never imagined in my life I would Talk about the arms and like weapons. And I would never imagine that my friends would be talking about weapons or anything. Because that's not what we sign up for. That's not who we are, you know, growing up in the military dictatorship being arrested or being being killed, it's not something new to us, we know that this is our destiny one way or another. But see my friends holding guns and have to kill. It's really heartbreaking things for me, I still cannot process it, to be honest, until today, even though I accept it as a reality. But on the other hand, we are fighting against the the Siddha that is extremely brutal that we that today's an argument, a lot of people say, oh, yeah, the resistor movement also do the bad things, and both sides are wrong. But the level and intensity of the violence committed by the military, the setup, and the non state actor cannot be equated it it's beyond I'm not saying that the resistor movement have never done any violation there are we also have an incident we also have a document that they are also there will some violation that they commit, but that we are talking here we're talking about the sitter that burn people alive, that burn the whole village, that rape and that that use rape as a weapon that were that confiscate the public thing and that humiliate people before they kill. They're not just killing, they will also tell in how they're enjoying their will some video testimony of the soldier who defected from the moon from the Siddha. Like they were saying like, how they have done certain commitment. So we are talking about we are talking about the the Siddha that is using the brutality and that is getting impunity from whatever butyl brutality that they're doing. And they're doing the retaliation killing as a retaliation and everything. So I want to say for the people who are the any narrative that is like, okay, both sides is wrong, it's, it can never be the same. You can never equate the level and intensity of the after set debt with any other actors. Because Siddha has a resource to use the state resources, and nobody, and they can use the airplane. And they are using the air strikes on school, children who are five years that school of the primary Children Hospital, and that's what they have been doing. And we are, do we are dealing with the pure evil here. So for the resistant movement resistant people, yes, I am not really I'm not denying that they are not denying that, oh, no, there is no chance that they wouldn't commit. They they do because this is a warfare and is also the warfare has a collateral damage. But on the ground, some group what they're doing is also I'm being encouraging them to document their own abuses as well, so that they have to the resistant people also have to take accountability at the end of the revolution. I don't think just because they are we are the revolution, revolutionary, just because they are that they shouldn't be they shouldn't get immunity from the violation. Because if we do, that's not what we are hoping for. We are fighting the culture of impunity of the sitter. So we try to make sure that we don't commit the same thing. So we want you to win. And I've been telling the the advocating for the people in the movement and also some leaders that come across they have been they have been saying about the responsible resistant, they want to win. They want to have they want to win it win the war, but how do we know why it is more necessary? They understand that and they are developing accountability mechanisms, so that they can take accountability, they should take accountability at the end of the revolution. And meanwhile they should also document their wrongdoing. And at the end we were doing because this is a revolution. And we need to be aware in everything every process, the victory with dignity. ET is very important for us. And also some leaders are very aware of it. And some leaders are talking about the Victory, with dignity, the victory with responsibility, because we have rights not to be an evil, we have rights not to be a perpetrator. And also, we are trying to change a system, we are not really the people, they are trying to change the system, the resistant people, and they are also trying to give a, you know, give a chance for the soldier soldier to get out of the military. So because this is an millage de Sitter is the root cause of all the violation in the country, so. So this is an elephant in the room, and we need to address about it, and we need to address the effective way of taken it out. Otherwise, our tragedies gonna continue. It's been forever since the, since the first coup since since before we were born. And we want our generation to be the last generation to face the atrocity and the brutality by the military. So we so we need to understand people, we are the resistant movement, the resistant people are also trying to do the victory with dignity. And before if they're more grievant. And if military started doing more, and more extrajudicial and inhumane, and undignified, and just way of winning the war, things can be into round direction, at this stage, things are not in that round direction, even though the resistance movement are holding on. So that's why they need to be supported. And that's why elephant in the room needs to be removed from power.

Host  1:26:59

And this elephant in the room this is, as we've established here, this is an entrenched evil that has been oppressing and exploiting for generations, and that we've already compared to the Nazis during the Holocaust. So the question for those young people that have joined these resistance forces, how can they simultaneously try to confront and uproot this entrenched evil while also managing and trying to hold on to their own humanity? This is a very sensitive and careful dynamic. And I'm sure you've had some conversations and have some perspective on how people have tried to hold this dynamic. So what have you learned? or what have you seen about how those resistance fighters are trying to balance and honor this tension and this sensitive dynamic?

Thiri  1:27:53

Yes, I'm here. We also I like to add on like the Siddha is a genocidal raging, they committed the genocide against the Rohingya population. So the world definitely have to take care of it, you know, to have to make sure that they hold accountability. And so for the movement, the resistance movement, I cannot say for the broader people, but some people that I've been interact with, still, it's a very dangerous game that they play the dangerous not in a way of not only physical way because it's so dangerous to it's a very risky game that they they don't want to do they're very they're trying really hard not to lose their humanity because that's very difficult. Because when you have a grievances when you when you see people got killed, your family got killed, targeted people you love and you know, the whole village is bent down and you have to know the thing it and especially when you're holding arms, arms, weapons holding weapon can give you another level of power and things can go wrong. But these are I'm I'm to be honest, I'm some some people that I interact with, I'm very impressed with how they have been balancing still balancing their humanity with the with with their duty as a, you know, resistant fighter. So the baseline for them is that my understanding, according to them is that it's not just about winning the war. They also care about how do they win the war? Like they just how do they just say how do they win the word like yes, they have the let's say like they kill the they have to kill the enemy because us attack does the war tactic, but it they don't. They respect the dignity of the people, even with your enemy like they don't humiliate or they don't targeted sexual orientations or other other form of human in indignant indignant fine way in so so they are very careful about the process some leaders like they are very careful about the process of how they do the operation and they are trying to follow the international law and they are trying to follow the rule of war. But yes, there are some cases that are things are out of control, that needs to be that the least resistant movement needs to hold accountability. But that's a different issue, you know that that shouldn't be equated as the Okay, this one is wrong, this one is wrong. That's why both around, that's not the, that's not the clear logic, those things come to come separately, the resistance movement, if they want, they do the violation, they also have to take accountability, but also the sedap. Accountability is a separate accountability, these are two different things that need to be addressed separately. But for the for, for this, you know, balancing the humanity and why holding the guns is a very extremely, it's an extremely difficult job, which they are still holding. But for me also, like, you know, that as a human myself as a seen grievance, even though I'm coming from the Human Rights background, sometimes I admit that I also have that evil thoughts like, okay, yeah, the grievance is so long, and I want to do I just feel like I was so angry at them. But again, you know, what the military one is the, how the dictatorship would work, it's to put us fear, and they want to press us down from the human level. So, for me, the resilient, it's go beyond the evilness of it. And to do that, we need to love more, we need to care more, we need to be more kind. So, so only then we can see the light, the freedom is with the physical freedom, yes, they can control the physical freedom, but the mental freedom is in on us. So we people helping each other, and people supporting each other people loving each other, those are the things that the SciTech cannot pointed guns to our head and night, they cannot tell us no, you cannot do this. For me, like I am, when I'm I am more like, you know, trying to hold the little candles that I have, which is my humanity. And, and me and a few other people around me are protecting our own candle light of humanity not to be faded away by the brutality of the of the of the regime of the dictatorship reaching. So. So what how they have been doing is we are just trying to humor and we humor is a way of coping it and also love and art. Those are all things combined for them. But sometimes, yeah, the light is fading, but sometimes the light is more shining. But still, there's a hope. Yes, they do. Because the darkness is very bit, the candle lighter, very little. But But these candlelight deserve to shine. And we deserve to live. As you know, we shouldn't be overshadowed by the fear of the brutality of the, of the debt.

Host  1:33:56

Right, as we're looking at this conflict between the armed resistance groups, as well as the ayos, the ethnic armed organizations and the CIT that I'm I'm wondering just tactically if you know, how things are going I think it to put it crudely, are we winning?

Thiri  1:34:15

Yes, I will say within my knowledge, I do not know all comprehensive, you know, analysis of the graph of the dynamic. But on the outset, it's this is the first time ever in the history of Myanmar. The most United ever in the all the arms group not all like almost all the arms go coming together and also people young people when you retrain young grade or fighter they all come together and also with the majority Bama politicians and all come together. This is like a we have never been that united in the history. We have Myanmar. So that that's, that's one thing. And also in terms of, in in terms of winning I, the I cannot necessarily say that we are winning, but we have a chance to win. Or I can say that military, I'm confident that the SciTech cannot win at all, for given the given the circumstances that, you know, these newly trained fighters, even though they are pretty new, they we have been hearing seeing the victories in, in certain areas, and mostly in the rural areas of different parts of the country. Like, for example, like the middle of Burma, the traditionally they have no no arms conflict before that, and now there is armed conflict over there and in, in most of the according to the data that we have been receiving most of the village area, they could control the territory and administration administration for a certain period. But it is not like, it's not like the you know, solid control, my understanding is that it's more like because military is using the, the center is using the air strike. So whenever there's an air strike, they have to, they have to go. So and in major city, the city is still in control, but other area we they have been gaining the control. So if you look at this, they these young fighter have been trained. They, they wanna, they wanna holding arms at or they have never, they may have never seen arms in their life until the February 1 of 2021. And now how much victory they have, they have carry out and in terms of the control and in the surrounding area, and also given that military soldiers are also leaving the leaving the military, the soldier soldier or leaving the Sudan and either joining the resistant forces or they stay out of it. So those are the those are the victory from the people side. So at the beginning, yes, like you said, some political scientists or conflict analysts, they, they will consider it like, there is no way that people can win over the heavily equipped to debt that we they have because they have as right and they have manpower, they have technologies and everything. That's what people that's what the analysis thing at the beginning of the of the violence conflict, because which makes sense. Because if you compare the history and also if you social political science, mostly when you look at the data, if you if you do the analysis based on the given data, it makes sense for them to make this analysis at the beginning. But now you may also hear more and more people shifting their narrative that oh, actually military is losing. And it because it's a people solidarity and people determinations in, in how much they wanted to end the dictatorship in the country. And that's very important because human mindset, it's some something that you can never put it into data, you can never make an analysis because you can you can never really measure the grievances and disease in and how and how much desire people want to do free from this brutal cyda. So, at the end of the day, this mindset will be the one determination of the of the war. So, I am not going to say that we are winning, but we are on the way of winning and also winning. The reason why it got delay more is that the resistant fighter and the ethnics arms organization, they are very much focused on the responsible resistant and they still focus on the victory of dignity. If they have done like how the military did it. They may have they may have a better chance in winning but still, they don't want to do that because they know where the they know where the military family live. They know where where to attack. They know the family members and something but they are thinking it's as a as a dignifying warfare and that's why they are going to the conventional warfare. So Because of that, at the end of the day, it's not the weaponry is not the strikes, that will determine who's going to win the war. It's about the people determination and how much people want it to free. So those are the determination that it's stronger in the sight of people, whereas military, they don't really have the, this kind of combined false, because the whole time in the past year, people join the military are more for their economic benefit and for the other carrier opportunities, rather than to actually to protect the country or rather than to actually, you know, take care of the rather than having a spirit of camaraderie like the in in many conflict area men we, we have been, we have heard in rapport that the military, the sit down people, they don't even carry their own own comrades body. They don't have that comradeship. They are opportunists. They are cower, and they have no combined force. This for the sitter soldier, there is no actual reason to fight against it enemy other than protecting the interests of the altar leader of its own leader, who I asked for people individually, it's very important about our individual freedom and safety and security. So people wanted to be free, people wanted to be safe, people wanted to be secure. And that's why they know that as far as they don't push the elephant out of out of the room, their life will not be purely free, secure or safe. So that's what people have more, that people have a reason to risk their life fight for it. Whereas military don't have that ground value. So the I think the for the fighting, it's more about the resistance and resilience, how much you can resilient. And, and people have more resilience. And so we are more on the path of the more on the winning path, as opposed to the SciTech, where a lot of them flee when they have an opportunity.

Host  1:42:44

Right, right. So this is examining the forces within the country and the context of what's going on there. To widen the scope and to look at what conditions could support the democracy movement from outside the country. I'm wondering what you think of that with the caveat that we're trying to stay within the reasonable and actual Of course, one can say and one hope this at the beginning that UN peacekeeping forces would come that the US would come in force, that there would be drone strikes or whatnot, that has not come close to happening, and that is probably not in the actual reality of taking place. So within the actual reality of what the outside world might be inclined to do, and might actually do that would be of tremendous support for the democracy movement, or even what things are in place are under consideration. Now, how would you say that the conditions for the democracy movement could be made better by practical reasonable actions that could take place by outside actors?

Thiri  1:43:52

Yes. So he was in the, you know, I do not believe the idea that outside forces can come and save us. This is our issues, and this is our fight, and we have to fight for our own freedom. Other there is no supranet saviors to save us we have to fight for our own. So that's the what I believe in. In terms of the International I know it is a tricky subject like it's unreal and said that people are the country would give the weapon support to the military support to the to the resistant movement, but but it's not that it never happened. You know, we have a history that the see the US has one time back the the military coup of the 1962. So when I when I say like foreign country should help the US you help. It's not that Asking them to like save us, I was telling them to take responsibility of the mess that they have done in our country before. So, what the people international people can do is that we have a, I know that foreign country may not want to get involved in the other country military affairs, but we have a foreign reserve money that are frozen in the in, in, in the US and other country. So one night, recognize the people push for your government to recognize the the recognized civilian government that is appointed by the people, give them the gift them the legitimacy. And then in freeze, you can push for your policymaker and your government to increase the foreign reserve money and let the civilian elected government to a set that accept those money. And also you can you can pressure on advocate your policy maker to put sanctions on the Myanmar oil and gas sector, because that is the major source of income for the, for the city of Dubai in the buying the weapons mostly from weapons and aircraft, mostly from Russia, us and it's aligned. So the money is also going to be going to Russia. So now that we have bomber bomber, bomber ad, which is already passed at the house, in the US, in the house, but also in the Senate, the it's still not processing so you can go to your appropriate policy makers and your representative and push for them to move along with this farmer at which we'll have a broader accountability mechanism on Myanmar. And on the on the on the on the Siddha. And, and other things that you can do is raise awareness about about Myanmar about us. And you can support you can if you have any friend, sometimes, you know, moral support is also important. We don't want people to forget us we are like human, we know that this is our own fight. And we need your support in in solidarity with us do not stop from sympathy, just add on it reach out to any of your friends and they may need help, financial help or other moral help reach out to them and support them and, and read news about Myanmar and trying to learn the situation and, and talks about us given an join in our campaign. And in make sure your representative or your government cares about Myanmar in rather than pushing Myanmar issue as a volleyball. So those are the thing. I want to request the international public to you know, to work together with us. Because we are just like you guys. And whatever happened in our country. It can happen to you at any point. And this is a threat to democracy. So a threat to democracy in our country can be a threat to democracy in your country, when your government don't act on it. So, so push for your representative push for your government to take care of it. This is beyond the political strife of brown people in Southeast Asia, in a country of Southeast Asia, it's broader than that, we are fighting for the democracy and we are not the victim. And we are telling you to join us in this fight together. So, so that we all can live in the society where fascists and dictatorship cannot have a space. So you know, that's, that's those are the thing that I want to I want to tell and an even if you're going to do anything, just join our campaign and talk about us Do not forget us because hope is only one that's gonna drive us to continue this journey. But we're not asking you to save us. This is our fight. And we're going to we're going to fight towards the end but please support in any way you can to us Small things matters. And I just want to, you know, I just like to share the language of love and language of solidarity. That's it. That's the whole point. I'm not here to vent in about our tragedies and look how but that takes we are, that's not the whole point. That's not the point. That's more like look at how we survive in this hardships. That's why we deserve to live. That's why we should be held, we should be supported by our friends and whoever care about us.

Host  1:50:27

Thank you. Those are really powerful words to end by a lot for us to reflect on. And really, really grateful that you were able to talk to us after a year and update us about things and your your voice is so meaningful and important at this time to be able to get this insight and this window into what's happening and how people are feeling and some some really good points for all of us to reflect on and consider. So thanks again for that.

Thiri  1:50:51

Thank you. Thank you for having me, have a good day.

Host  1:51:08

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1:54:14

right

1:54:29

yeah, no, no