Transcript: Episode #151: The Revolution will not be Incarcerated
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Tomas Martin. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
The situation currently taking place in Myanmar is abominable. There's no safety anywhere in the world is all but turned its back on an entire people trying to claim their freedom and insist upon their human rights in the face of blatant evil and inhumanity. international media seems to have moved on to the next story scarcely reporting on this one anymore even as the horror continues we at insight Myanmar podcast find this intolerable and we stand behind the Burmese people in their courageous effort to live in dignity. This platform is dedicated to making sure that we keep the conversation going while ensuring these voices continue to be heard. Today's guests is one of those voices and I invite you to settle in and open up to what follows.
01:14
seat at the table and I really like the way that are they gonna have a good day Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Teddy 01:55
Welcome to our insight Myanmar podcast. Our podcasts reflect a wide range of topics that include meditation, Buddhism, arts, wellbeing, human rights, you must bring revolution and military dictatorship, democratic resistance and emergency situation in country and much more. Today, I'm going to introduce you to a renowned researcher, author and anthropologist who is specialized in development studies, and prison psycho social oggi, and who also has many things to share about prison life in Myanmar, through his extensive research works and professional experiences. During the pockets, you may occasionally hear noises from flying airplanes. So I hope you will bear with me in this regard. without taking any longer. Let me welcome our special guest, Thomas, Max Martin, is really free to having you in our pockets. How are you today?
Tomas Martin 02:53
Hello, I'm very fine. And thank you very much for having me. It's really exciting. I enjoy this podcast so much. It's really a wealth of extremely important stories and information about Myanmar. So yeah, it's it's an honor to be with you today.
Teddy 03:09
Thank you for supporting our insight, Myanmar podcast. I have read your paper. And it's really, really interesting. And however, before we go further into your research work and talk about general prisons in Myanmar, and then your reflections on the paper, would you like to introduce yourself first?
Tomas Martin 03:29
Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, I'm, as you mentioned, I'm a prison researcher. I've done research on prisons, from social science perspective for quite some years, actually started. Yeah, 23 years ago. By accident. Yeah. I was young master's student. And I was interested in studying situations where people were under pressure and try trying to cope. And I was, I was in India. And a little bit by accident, I ended up doing research in a prison in Tihar jail in New Delhi. And it was actually a very famous person, not least, because there were an extensive investment in meditation in that prison, so after many debates with prison managers, I ended up doing a study on prison staff. And so I ended up in a prison on a meditation course with a lot of prison staff who had disciplinary issues who had broken the rules. And so they were sent on a meditation course. So that's where it all started. And since then, I've been very, very interested in in better understanding prisons, prison life, the people who live and work in prisons, because the prison is a very influential institution in our societies. It has a lot of impact. act, but it's often quite ill understood and difficult to access. And there's not so much thorough research based understanding of what actually happens in prisons and what matters to people in prison. Not least in countries outside the US and Europe. So that has been my professional career for Yeah, more than 20 years.
Teddy 05:25
Yeah, that was very impressive. 23 years. Yeah, it's
Tomas Martin 05:30
a long time.
Teddy 05:31
Yeah. I'm sure you have a lot, a lot to say about, you know, things you have learned to different prisons throughout the world. And then, particularly in the case of Myanmar, is there anything you would like to go about that?
Tomas Martin 05:49
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can tell you that right now. And for the last six years, I've been working as a senior researcher in a Danish NGO called dignity, Danish Institute against torture. And this organization where I work, it's, it works to prevent torture and violence, and also to ensure that survivors of torture and violence can access rehabilitation. And dignity does this on many fronts. We both have a clinic here in our headquarters in Copenhagen, we have many partnerships across the world, where we do different forms of intervention to prevent torture and to enhance rehabilitation. We do capacity building, we do advocacy, we do treatment, but we also do research in many aspects of torture and violence. And the research I do is, from a social science perspective, trying to understand the dynamics of violence, sort of the underlying demand dynamics, what are the cultures and the rationales and the conditions that enhance violence, or maybe even can help us to inhibit violence. And here I look at prisons, especially from, from my experience with prison institutions, because prisons, as as well known is an institution where a lot of violence actually takes place. So why is that? And how can it be addressed? That some of the research that I've engaged in? And for the last five years, out of my attention have been on prisons in Myanmar?
Teddy 07:27
Okay, yeah. Before I'm, I've met you like through online, I've never really read a research paper or any articles related to the prison work. And I think what you said is also true, we do not have enough research or thorough research, you know, describing about prisons in Yama. And I for for me, personally, when I hear the words like prison, some kind of stigmas attached to it. And my reflection would be, you know, like torture and judgment, like oppressions. And it's kind of scare me to read to those paper. But when I read your paper, I, I have so many different perspectives, so many new informations that I've never think of before. So speaking of that, and I know that in your work, research work, you you describe prison as prism, and you are trying to look at politics policies and rules in Yama through prison lens. What would you like to call more about that?
Tomas Martin 08:41
Yeah, it's it's a, it's a research project that my colleagues here at dignity and our partners in Myanmar have been engaged in for some time. We call it legacies of detention and Myanmar. And we tried to understand what we say the history of the present of Myanmar prisons. And one of the catchphrases or sort of headings for our research is to look as you say, look at the prison as a prison to see what can our ethnographic analysis sort of like our fieldwork based qualitative interview based and observation based research, tell us about Myanmar politics about how imprisonment has been conducted in Myanmar and what consequences it has for people and for the relationship between between states and citizens. So we've done a large number of publications and research work there and some of them I've shared with you. I've worked on prisoners contact with the outside world, which is a key issue. I've worked on on issues around prison air, sort of like ventilation, breathing, including meditation actually and also feeling soft, warm and cold in prison, what it meant how it affects people. I've also written our beginnings to write at least the history of Mandalay prison, which is a very significant prison in Myanmar history. And, of course, we have also in the course of these years had some extreme incidents happening in prisons first, the COVID pandemic, and not least, and the dreadful coup. So that's also something that that we have begun to to work on, it's not things that we have yet published, but I worked a bit on COVID, and also how that has affected prisons and Myanmar. And lately, we're trying to get our heads around what happens with prison life and imprisonment during the coup, for instance, by looking more closely at at the prison protests that has really taken off for the last one and a half years, so. So a lot of that research is, is currently in motion. But I think it's interesting that you mentioned this, that you have this very specific perspective on the prison around violence and torture and stigma. And I think that's, that's, that's a very correct observation. Because the prison is an inherently violent place. But I also, I'm also happy that you note that, that you've also sort of experienced a lot of new perspectives, but I think because I think that when you do prison research, you also realize that that prison is a very complex place. And it's also a place where people are just living getting by are working, day in, day out, sleeping, working, eating. So a lot of our research has also been to try to insist on understanding everyday life in prisons, and try to get a fuller, fuller and better picture of what it actually means to be in a prison. And also to, in no way disregard the very explicit violence that takes place, not least recently, but also to, to be attentive to say the more subtle, long term effects and experience of imprisonment, sort of, when you're in prison, you're often very bored, you're anxious, you can't sleep, you're very close to people with your body, that you might not want to you, you might not have much of autonomy, very likely not to have physical integrity. And all that together, all these many small cuts, is what I think it's very important both to document and understand. And that's one of the reasons why I've also started this issue about air, which can seem sort of strange, and maybe not the most likely topic to look at in prisons. But actually, if you go into to a prison, you really feel the smell there. And you also really feel a lot of resonance when you start talking to people who are in prisons, when you talk to them about air, about their really urge for clean air, the way they try to protect themselves against foul air, and how they feel dehumanized by bad hygiene, and also how they really struggle to get comfortable, bodily temperatures and how all that is an integral and also sometimes quite an important part of the prison experience. And that's just one of the ways that that I but also in other ways, my colleagues have tried to go into this everyday life of prison in Myanmar, and to see how both the very spectacular and peculiar and extraordinary experiences of imprisonment mixed in with various sort of mundane, everyday domestic experience of just getting through the day.
Teddy 14:18
When you talk about air, and then you know, reflecting on your paper, when I first saw there, that section, mentioning about the quality of air and the smells, and I was surprised to myself that why I'm so ignorant that I've never think about this specific perspective. When I think thought of altruism before I know there is no good hygiene, you know, there is no clean water and then during the COVID they do not have enough COVID prevention equipment. But you know, the very basic and important element air I haven't really thought about it? Yeah, I think it will. It is a kind of like a huge, huge element when when we talk about this, this equality of air and how they will affect the life of prisoners there. So nice.
Tomas Martin 15:20
I'm glad you mentioned that also, because I think that that was also I mean, I've worked in prison for 20 years before I came to air came to my attention. So in that sense, it's, I share your, your immediate surprise of the richness of this very basic concept of looking at air in prisons. But I think that's also something that we as researchers can, can contribute with sort of we, we have the opportunity to take time to actually listen into people. We've done a number of interviews with former prisoners. And in that sense, there is also a division of labor, I think, between researchers like me, who can do in depth long term research and other people who are in engaged in prisons, apparently, and of course, also, right now when there is so much need for for critical and insistent attention to to prison life in Myanmar. I mean, there are people who are documenting human rights violations, there are people who are doing advocacy, but they're also researchers like me, who are trying to, to connect threats across history and and to inform our understanding of prisons through theory, and also have an opportunity to look into these more sort of, say, maybe peculiar, but still very basic. And in this case, I would at least argue, quite telling issues around air. But that's also something that I've tried to, to research for quite some time, sort of how we better understand the way that prisons are changing? And also what is the relationship between how we know the prison from the outside and how prison can be known from the inside?
Teddy 17:20
So why do you think it is really important for people to understand, you know, what's the relations inside and outside the prison walls? How would have that make an impact when people understand more about the prison?
Tomas Martin 17:38
Well, I think generally we, we have to be very insistent on the fact that the prison is part of society. Although you can say the logic of the prison is a little bit a little bit is very much the reverse, right? So you use the prison informally in a society to seclude people to take them out of the, the community. But the prison is very much part of society. And we need to understand that some of the dynamics that we see in society are also very prominent in the prison, but often in amplified or Accelerated forms. That's also why we at least use thing it's fruitful to use this notion of the prison as a prison. So as prison researchers, we think studying prisons tell us something about how politics and in, for instance, in our case, dynamics of reform, State Building, play out. And so in that sense, it's very important to open up the prison for this kind of examination. But I think it's also very important to try very actively and in practice to, to keep the prison open to society. And as I mentioned, we've done quite a lot of research on what we in human rights term called prisoners contact with the outside world that prisoners have a right to, to be in connection with their families, as far as possible, and a lot of prison research document that that the extent to which the prison and the society are in contact, the the level of relationships that prisoners are able to maintain really has positive impact on them and on prison life. So. So there is also this very, we can say, practical and very direct importance of keeping the prison as open as possible. In Myanmar, we see for instance, that In the extreme importance of our family visits of the interaction with, with families and prisoners, in terms of basic needs, families bring in a lot of resources to prisoners that they are otherwise not able to access. And in that sense, that contact with the outside world is not sort of only a way to, to ensure that they are able to maintain family life and relationships with the community that might help prisoners when they are released. Prisoners contact with the outside world in a country like Myanmar is also extremely important for their survival inside the prison. And families have a big role to play and families also have many, many challenges. And both financially, emotionally and has to go through a lot of trouble and many levels of you can say, extortion and abuse, just to reach their relatives inside prisons. So so this thing about the relationship with the between the prison and society both theoretically, conceptually, politically, but also practically is crucial. And, and that was also something that that in Myanmar, but also across the world, and also in Denmark, where I lived, something that was deeply affected by COVID When When prison visits were either stopped or greatly limited. So, so that's a key issue in the prisons across the world, but but not least in a country like Myanmar.
Teddy 21:57
Thank you. So, when you look at prisons, I am sure you also witnessed that you know, prisoners are supported to be treated with dignity and they also have you know, protection from the basic human rights. However, in the reality that is not the case and they also suffer a lot of suppression and interest treatment inside the prisons. So, in the case of Myanmar, do you have any, like important fact to highlight how prisoners in Myanmar prisons are treated and how they are trying to cope with stress and a lot of challenges that the outsider like me wouldn't be able to understand, but understanding that we make a you know, positive impact towards the society in the future.
Tomas Martin 23:02
I think when you look at human rights violations in prisons, I mean, there are so many dimensions, but I mean, we have got both see the attack on people's health and their inability to as I mentioned before, have have contact with their relatives. In many situations, they are not accessing fair trial, and they have no opportunity to complain, so they have no opportunity to in any way improve their situation. But what I think is, of course, well known and also quite rampant in Myanmar is the history of, of torture and the use of prisoners as a political tool for political oppression. So Myanmar has a long history of political imprisonment, which has been of course, extremely reactivated and accelerated after the KU prison Ivan mediawise, characterized by overpopulation, like there's so many prisoners crammed together in various small wards and cells. Solitary confinement is used very aggressively against, especially against political prisoners. And there's a lot of violence in prisons. That is somehow the you can say the main basis for a lot of the way that the prison is run informally, by strong prisoners, who the staff give the authority to control others So there is there is definitely a situation of quite significant violations of human rights. But But I think it's important as I think we started off was in this conversation that there is this harsh, explicit, violent and very physical suffering in prisons that are very directly and explicitly also targeting political prisoners. But it, to me, at least, it's important to keep remembering and also to noting the relationship between this form of violence and, and, and the general conditions of being locked up, isolated and challenged on your way to control your life. And so, so it's a very complex picture, I must say. Very challenging one.
Teddy 26:11
Yeah. It's also sad to know that you're talking about the, you know, they're the imprisonment, you know, over populations, people put in solitary confinement and lots of violences. And, and that's, that's apply to general prisoners. So in regards of, you know, the criminal prisoners who are on criminal charges, and people who are the political prisoners, do you think they are treated differently? Or it is the same? Or what what would you think how the political prisoner will be treated, especially in this context, you know, when military coup happens, many people, activists, people who involve fighting for the democracy and restoration of human rights have been sent to the present and under the category of political prisoners, how would you describe their life in the prison?
Tomas Martin 27:17
Well, I it's not something that I have studied so directly as some of my other colleagues, but I think that that it is. It is evident that political prisoners are suffering very extreme and targeted abuse, as I mentioned, especially in relation to interrogation and arrests, but that happens, we should recall outside what we call the prison normally, but in the interrogation centers they are exposed to, to torture and degrading and inhuman treatment. But they are also as I mentioned, exposed to solitary confinement in an extreme degree, they're held incommunicado, they're not allowed visits. And they are also subjected to unfair trial. But I think that that many of the things that these prisoners are experienced in terms of lack of access to health, and other forms of attack on their bodies, in terms of food and hygiene, overpopulation. I think that's, we have to remember that that's sort of the the the ground tone of imprisonment, that's what many prisoners, if not most prisoners are exposed to and has been for many years. So there are differences between the rules and the treatment of different categories of prisoners and political prisoners are, of course, one significant one. To some extent, political prisoners can also have some resources. They can have a voice, they can have certain strength in their political activism and communal relations with other political prisoners. And I think that that can give them some form of resilience, at least that what we have learned, but it can also be a burden to carry. And at the end of the day of the prison grinds into everybody, and the violence that you experience, both the very explicit one and the more sort of subtle one sort of sticks in the body and the mind. So there is a lot of need for counseling, rehabilitation support documentation, also to families of political prisoners, but Oh, also of other categories of prisoners, and I think that we have to keep in mind that that what can be most protective, if you are in prison is if you have money, because the prison isn't inherently corrupt place, or at least it's a place, it's a marketplace where most things can be bought and sold. So, so there are many categories of prisoners. I mean, it's, it's too simple to say political prisoners, or criminal prisoners, or normal prisoners or whatever category you want to say that. So a lot of our research also, we're struggling to try to, to, to, to critically question who's prison are we talking about their issues between gender and class, there are many different experiences. But I think, across the board, if you have money, if you have connections, if you have relationships with strong prisoners or with staff, you can, you can try to put yourself in a position where you can protect yourself, get a better place to sleep, access better food, avoid the most strenuous and humiliating forms of labor. So in some ways, some political prisoners are not able to sort of engage in this sort of marketplace of the prison, because they are isolated. And they may also not be interested in that. And, and some prisoners who are in the common wards are able to, to negotiate a little bit to improve their situation, both with staff and other prisoners. But it depends a lot on your your position, do you have money do you don't do not do have connections do have family visits, they can bring in food you can sell. And at the end of the day, if you're poor, if you have no connections, you might not be subject to, to explicit torture isolation, but you have absolutely no opportunity to protect yourself. So you will be exposed to very hard situations of hard labor have to rely only on prison food. And you will be sleeping close to the toilet in the ward. So in that sense, you can say that there are different categories of prisoners and different forms of suffering. So much yet, some are very specific. So when it comes to targeted abuse in terms of torture and solitary confinement, I think political prisoners definitely stand out. But I think we have to remember that the prison is also a place of sort of enhanced vise spread violence, and we need to keep our, our eyes on that too.
Teddy 33:17
Yeah, I, it's very interesting for me to hear the term marketplace and in the present, you know, this is something quite new to me. And loosening your what what you just said, it makes me realize even more that that the lives of inmates without the conditions and money, how difficult their life would be. And earlier in the podcast, you mentioned, you know, the family members also struggle a lot to you know, to send the basic needs resources to their family members in the prisons. So I could imagine people without money, basically, were suffering more in the prison compared to their other other inmates in the prison.
Tomas Martin 34:17
Sure, that that's definitely a rule of rule of thumb, but as I mentioned, in relation to certain targeted prisoners, although they have money, they there can be other reasons to keep them under extreme pressure. And that's, that's, that's what's its particular vulnerability of political prisoners, of course. So, yeah, it's it's it's not it's, it's not a good place, the prison anywhere in the world. That's for sure. But I think it's also important to, to remember that that there is also a place where where people do live every day? I mean, there are at times almost 100,000 People in Myanmar prisons, and there are people who go to work there every day. Yeah, I mean,
Teddy 35:13
glad to know that physically life in him is slowly improving, and I hope if it will be transformed in the future. One, one, looking back to the conversation you mentioned, you know, everyday life is happening inside the prisons, you know, people are going there to work. So it's given me the idea of we are now talking about prisoners inside the prison, but there are also staff who are working in the prison. So do you have any perspective to get life of prison stuff in the prisons?
Tomas Martin 35:52
Yeah, I think that's, I'm glad you asked that, because that has been some of the things that I've looked into over the years, as you might recall, I started off my my work as a prison researcher researching stuff in an Indian prison. And that was actually a little bit by accident. Because I wanted to study how prisoners in this particular prison and daily, I wanted to study how prisoners managed, with all the challenges of prison life, and the prison management. They were not so keen to let me talk to prisoners. And after some time, going back and forth negotiating access, I was a bit frustrated and said, okay, but then let me talk to staff. And then they said, Yeah, do that, that seemed less problematic. But in fact, after talking to the staff, and doing research on prison staff, you can get so much information about prison life. And it's it's an important perspective on prison to look at, at staff, because staff are often in prison longer than prisoners. And, and what they think about their work, how they carry their work, how they build relationships with each other, with managers, with people from the outside. And, of course, with prisoners matter so much to to how prisons are run. So it's a key research area. And it's also, of course, a key area of intervention. I mean, a lot of attention is paid to train staff to do things differently, or to equip staff to do things differently. So, so I think that's, that's that it's very important to look at prison staff. I mean, there's even some researchers who have this notion of the prison staff as the other prisoners, because they're in these institutions for so long. And they in many ways, share the histories of, of prisoners. Their work is stigmatized, often, they're subjected to harsh discipline by their superiors, they live in the barracks of the prison closed off from society. But of course, they also go home every day, and they get paid and they, with their family. So it's it's, of course, also many differences. But it's key to understand prison live to get a better understanding of the role of staff. And also, if you want to change things in prisons, you need to be acutely aware of how staff consider interventions. And often you will find that you can have many good ideas that are developed in other parts of the world, and then you transport them to a place like Myanmar. And if the staff are not interested, if the staff don't understand what's going on, or if the staff working conditions actually hindering at some of these interventions, it can be implemented, then they will not succeed. So it's extremely important, but it's been difficult to do research on prison staff and Myanmar because of the limited access to prison staff. You have an opportunity to talk to former prisoners to get a good understanding of prison life. But it's difficult to access staff, they're very suspicious. They are also in a situation where there might be in quite some trouble talking to researchers, especially if it's a foreigner. But We have had some interactions with prison staff. And I think it's, it's, it's very important to continue that line of research and Myanmar also, after the revolution, if opportunities arise to get a better understanding of their perspectives of what has happened, and what should happen in the future, I think is key.
Teddy 40:34
This is interesting. I have many things to ask what it is like you to be a medical doctor, working in the prisons and what the experience would be like?
Tomas Martin 40:45
Yeah, that's a very good question. But a tricky one, and it can take time to open up and and it's, of course, not to have any sort of excuse of the abuses that prison staff are engaged in. But we have to be curious and critically inspect their role. And also to, to, to allow ourselves to try to understand what was involved in? I think it at least traditionally, there is a lot of distinction to make between police and prison staff. And I think in the history of Myanmar prisons, also the the military, leaders of the prisons, and the prison staff proper, so to speak, inside the institutions, sometimes sometimes they are likely to be in conflict, sometimes not. And, and these complex dynamics, I think, are very important to understand. But as I said, it's been very difficult to research at least so far. We also have to consider whether their prison staff who are defecting or deserting and what they can tell us about what goes on. But, but yeah, that's, that's something we will have to keep focusing on for the future.
Teddy 42:22
And you just know, you mentioned, you know, it's the relationship between the prisoners and people who are working in prison is really important in many expats. And then, you know, since the, the staff prison staff have been working in the prisons for, like, maybe some maybe much more longer than other prisoners, they may have some kind of bonds towards setting prisoners, and I was just, you know, thinking out loud. in prisons, you will also notice from the news, certain kind of informations are shared between the prison members, there are real strikes happening in the prisons. So do you see this kind of, like relationship between prisoners and prison staff somehow contribute to the better communications, on politics in the prisons? I'm not sure I am. I'm getting right.
Tomas Martin 43:35
Yeah, I think what you're getting at is that that there is there is a relationship between prisoners and prison staff that are quite complex. And, as I mentioned, also, it's different from for instance, the relationship between police in the public or between police and the people they arrest and detain. prison staff are often very interested in in what you could say institutional reproduction. They just want the prison to stay as it always is. And sometimes they do that in collaboration with prisoners, and sometimes they do it by pressing prison prisoners very hard. And sometimes they do both things at the same time, maybe often. And so there are some relationships there. But they are at the end of the day, at least most prisoners will say that at the end of the day, they are based on on on the prison staffs control of the prisoner and the prison and they are based on the promise of retaliation and violence if the prisoners do not sort of follow the ways that the institution may be able to reproduce itself.
Teddy 45:03
Right almost. At the beginning, you were mentioned, you're starting research on prisons and revolutions, no prison protests and revolution. Could you talk more about on that regard?
Tomas Martin 45:20
Yeah, it's, it's something that's very much still a work in progress. But, of course, after the coup, we have been compelled and propelled to try to, to follow the developments in the prison and in the practices of imprisonment. And it's obvious that, that there is acute violence. But that is also as I've mentioned, it's, it's sort of embedded in an entrenched and long lasting history of suffering in Myanmar prisons. But there are definitely new things going on. We hear from from, from colleagues documenting human rights violations that that the torture is, is an abuse is rampant, and in some respects, worse and more widespread than before. And of course, very significantly and dreadfully, the implementation of the executions are very significant. And, and, and also a new development. But one of the things that we are trying to look at is, is sort of the relationship between the prison and the revolution. Both generally, and historically, and specifically in relation to to prison protests. Because there is you can say, the prison has a particular role in in revolutionary history and theory. My colleague Andrew Jefferson, I we are working with the idea that the prison is considered on the one hand and sort of an both an incinerator and an incubator of the revolution. So on the one hand, the prison is where revolutionary actors and protests are being quelled. People are being locked up and even killed, to destroy the revolution. But the prison is also a place where there is opportunity to, to, to collect revolutionary actors and to produce revolutionary action and spirit. I mean, throughout the history of Myanmar prisons, there has been a lot of attention to the prisoners, what what some former political prisoners called the Big School where there has been a certain kind of quickening of, of revolutionary spirit and education between political prisoners. So it has this double role, the prison in the revolution, and as you might know, in sort of in an iconic revolutionary moment is to storm the prison as we know it from the French Revolution, the storming of the Bastille. So there is something about a particular place the prison has in the revolution that I think is extremely important to, to follow and document. So we are trying to look into the protests that are taking place in in prisons since since the coup, where prisoners are organizing different forms of protest. What role do these protests play? What kind of reactions the the prison staff and the military What are they doing to to clamp down on these protests? And when and how do they occur? Sometimes they occur at least the beginning, very much in, in correspondence and resonance with with key events on the outside, sort of anniversaries of of the 888 or the tu tu tu tu so so there were these protests, but there are also protests sometimes occurring when, when, when, for instance, when political prisoners are reacting strongly against. You can see institutionalized abuse by by strong prisoners who are delegated by staff to control other prisoners. We've seen some pros Just sort of flaring up. When political prisoners are not accepting that kind of abuse. There's also been processed, especially in the early days of the revolution against COVID, and, and lack of medical treatment where prisoners have experienced their, their fellow prisoners, semi dying and not receiving treatment. So there is, I think, a very important area of research here, to better understand these protests to see what role they play in the revolution, also to document the reactions, especially the abuse, we've seen killings in relation to these protests, and also how they develop over time. There seems to be changing. From the beginning of the revolution, we saw a lot of communal protest, mainly by anchored around CDMS. Now, there are different actors in the prisons, PDF prisoners, and in there are different ways that these protests play out, we expect. And there's also, I think, in relation to this issue of documentation, there is also you can say, a tussle for the narrative about what goes on. I mean, the, the authorities will say there was a riot, whereas revolutionary actors would call it a protest. The, the authorities might claim that, that they had to react harshly because prisoners were trying to escape, whereas protesters would, would would, would rather state that there was not there was no no escape attempt. It was, it was a peaceful demonstration in the prison against dreadful conditions. So, so there are very intense things going on here. Also, the relationship between I think the prison staff and the military, the military, often enter the prisons in relation in connection with protests and start firing. And so so this is something that that we will follow closely in the, in this period, and I think it's very important to document what goes on with these protests.
Teddy 52:34
Yeah, it's, I'm personally really exciting to read this research paper when it comes out, because it's really intrigued me, I think it would be really important documents for the others to you know, find out and know as well. So, concerning the topics that you have cover in the research and things that we have discussed today, is there any other recommendations that you would like to you would like the audience to know to improve the current prison conditions and to reflect on the revolutions and implications on the prisons and society, and also time or support that you would like to recommend in the future?
Tomas Martin 53:28
Yeah, I think that's a big, big question. I think, in the short term, I think there is definitely it's so important to keep documenting what goes on in prison. I think that's important in any prison context, but it's, of course, I've accelerated importance in this particular situation of, of abuse, and the way that imprisonment I used to quell the revolution and pursue the people of Myanmar. So we need to document continue to document what goes on in prisoners and a lot of very capable access, striving to do that. So I think the continued support to this documentation effort, I mean, both to, to make sure that that that we are gathering key information about what goes on for the future, but also to ensure that we can support advocacy efforts and and also to simply help families to know what goes on with their loved ones. I mean, there is a long tradition, which is particular linked to sort of a military mindset of Thinking of the prisoner as an enemy of the state that has to be hidden away. And, and, and there is a tendency has been a long tradition of in Myanmar of withholding information to families and also other actors were interested in getting the lawful information about where their loved ones what happens to prisons, what happens to prisoners. So, so prisoners held incommunicado and it this you can say it's a way to weaponize MIS, or disinformation. And, and so there is a strong need to struggle against that. And to make sure that we know what goes on in prisons as far as possible. There is a need to support Legal Aid of prisoners, I mean, that there is very limited, if non existent opportunity to to access any form of fair trial for people in the criminal justice system in Myanmar. To some extent, this has been the case for some time for many groups, but it's especially bad now, and especially for political prisoners, of course, but still, there is an opportunity for for legal actors to improve our knowledge about what happens to prisoners and to support prisoners, although they cannot in any way guarantee or support their fair trial. In practice, of course, continued humanitarian support to prisoners, try to get medicine, foods and other forms of basic needs, made them available to them through their families and other contexts. Yeah, and as I mentioned before, advocacy to make sure that, that what goes on in Myanmar prisons are not forgotten and have as far as possible, political impact. But I think it's also important, and I'm speaking more as a researcher to to keep the attention that is now on prisons, in the long term, and we should not forget about the prison once as we hope the revolution succeeds, that, that there is an insistence on changing prison life in Myanmar, and that the revolution should also be directed to improving the prison also, in a very deep and fundamental way. This is very complex, and it cannot happen overnight, of course, but there is a need to, I think, to continuously try to, to make society less punitive. And there is an opportunity in a moment like this, to think about why we punish and what punishment does to people and try to do this better. And I think as I mentioned before, one of the key ways to do that is to open up the prison and to punish less. So I think that's also in the long term a very important task for the people who and I are trying to look towards how a new relationship between states and citizens in the future Myanmar can be, can be developed. So, don't forget the prison because it has remained very bad for many years. And now there is attention to how bad it actually is and how bad it can become when when when it is weaponized and and and when the violence and prisoners is amplified as it is now. So, so So there is definitely a need to change that fundamentally, if in any way possible in the future.
Teddy 59:48
Thank you so much, Thomas, you share a great perspective about prisons and things that we need to consider for in the future as a long term ending Ever. So this is a great conversation. And thank you once again, spending your time with us sharing this great insights. And I hope our audience will find this conversation as interesting and fruitful as I am.
Tomas Martin 1:00:16
Thank you very much. It was really a pleasure. And I it's It's tough. It's a tough topic, to discuss and also to work with. But it's also I think, important and worthwhile to to keep trying to improve on how we administer our relationship with the prisons, in practice, and in theory, and in the future. So thank you very much for inviting me. And it's been a pleasure.
Host 1:01:06
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1:04:47
what am I gonna do we are done and the reason is that we got busier and busier. Oh yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda. Yes.