Transcript: Episode #130: Igor Blaževič on the Spring Revolution
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Igor Blazevic, which was released on November 3rd, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
00:00
You know crocodile Nova rebel groups Myanmar military carried out its air strikes in northern state of Karachi,
Host 00:07
killing over 60 people and leaving around 100 others injured. Just a quick note before today's show while we have transformed our entire platform to respond to the ongoing crisis in Myanmar, increasing our production of both podcast episodes and blogs, we cannot continue without your support please consider making a donation or contributing to the volunteer to support our active engagement at this critical time
00:32
for every knife taking the coolest way possible my hands go numb. And if we asked me what will you we actually need a world racing piece of pieces Hey, any way that they got a Yeah. Maybe that is so awesome.
Host 01:46
Really excited for the upcoming conversation that we're going to have with Igor Blagojevich. Igor, thanks so much for taking the time to join us and talk to us here at insight Myanmar podcast.
Igor Blazevic 01:56
Thank you very much. It's really a pleasure and honor for me because partly because you are yourself doing a great work, because you already had a such such a marvelous group of the people who are speaking. So it's a nice and pleasure and honor to be in a company.
Host 02:12
Well, thank you, you're you're very kind and you're certainly part of that great audience that we're bringing in, you've led quite an eventful life and your life more recently has intersected quite strongly with the Myanmar democratic period. But before we get into Myanmar, I want to go back into your life and your background, where you came from, and what earlier in life, what you were facing what you were doing, and I think that'll probably lead into Myanmar. So can you take us back to the start and tell us a bit about by yourself and your background.
Igor Blazevic 02:46
I was born in Bosnia in a former Yugoslavia. I have grown up in a city named Sarajevo and I basically have been reading person, as a as a as a young man I was, I was pretty much a social zombie. I was spending most of my time sitting and reading books and hoping and dreaming in one moment, I will write a book as well. I have studied in one moment, I moved from Sarajevo to Zagreb, another town in Croatia and former Yugoslavia. I studied philosophy and literature and continue this path to writing thinking, basically, internal sensibility reflection. But then the war started in my country. In that moment, I was leaving a short period of time in Czechoslovakia at that time, that was early 90s, after the Velvet Revolution, and after changing sear. But the war started in my country in Bosnia, first in Croatia and then Bosnia. And that profoundly changed me later, they changed me from being a social zombie. Because I've started let's say, to be active and looking how I am as an individual, and with the group so the people can respond on the on the distraction on the evil of the on the end of everything, what you believe is humanity. And, and I basically kind of, in that moment, as Wikipedia describes me now became a prominent human rights defender of the Bosnian origin living in Czech Republic Europe.
Host 04:31
That's, that's really interesting. And I think you hit upon this theme that we've been seeing so much in the last year and a half and Myanmar of what happens when everything you think you know about a society and about being human about one's own humanity and what it means to be safe and to to have a normal and conventional life has just been suddenly and terribly uprooted. And this is something that it's a topic I've been, unfortunately quite sad fascinated and interested in for the last year and a half just because it relates so much to what my friends are going through and how to support them and trying to better understand myself historical examples and things that have happened before, to better equip myself for being able to understand and support what's happening now because this is something that is so new for me and new for many people in Myanmar as well, how violent and sudden it was, we can get into the Myanmar example a bit later, but I'm I'm for grounding some of this, these thoughts and reflections because I think they can relate to your early years and what was happening with the Bosnian Civil War. So as you found yourself as a young man, as many young people are in Myanmar now, having these institutions and the safety ripped out from under us so violently and so suddenly and dramatically. Can you describe a bit about what actually was happening in that context as you were growing up and then how you responded to it and how it felt as well.
Igor Blazevic 06:07
What what happened with me and in a certain way, what happened with all of us, in a Bosnian Sri or what is in different way but similar happening in a Myanmar now, suddenly, everything what you believe is your own life is stopped, you can't continue that everything what you believe that it's your either neighborhood or city or region or country, whatever, as a you identify yourself, when suddenly is in that kind of the danger that you have a reasonable guest that it can disappear, that it can be totally destroyed, which cannot say luckily cannot but in the when you're sitting in the middle of that, or you really think that this is the end of the days, let's say everything will disappear in total destruction. So it's a terrifying experience, simply basically, your whole life and everything around you, is falling apart everything what you believe this humanity is values is disappearing, you are facing and looking at the worst, what humans can produce. But at the same time, let's suddenly all around you, you see also the best what humans have in themselves as it because these extreme situation are really taking out from the human beings the worst, which they can do, and then from some others is taking out the best what human beings are capable to do in, in a sense of courage and a sense of the self sacrifice in the cell. So the commitment to the to the others. And then you are making choices. All you very often are not in a position to make a choices. But but let's say one of the choices is some people simply try to escape, let's say which it is a normal human. Or if you want it's normal animal reaction, you know, you you flee, you flee, if you can. And I have never blamed people who have done that decision either in Yugoslavia, and either in Bosnian or in other places, it's a legitimate choice not to not be a hero. But at the same time, let's say thanks, God, that there is always people around ourselves, who are ready to be the heroes, and who are able to basically turn the bad histories in another direction. The other possibility is, then that you basically cannot understand that you cannot move the mountain you cannot stop the war, you cannot count on yourself or with people around you stop the really capitalist Matic falling apart of everything, but you can do the small things you can do the small actions with the discipline with the endurance, small things that go against that. And that was what I learned in Boston, it's a good thing to do that not to let despair and frustration swallow you, destroy you or let you although you can remove them every single night, every single day, the trauma is coming back. But somehow you leave it that you absorb that you cry when you will feel the pain but at the same time as you kick off yourself and do your small act of the goodness you're small act of the contribution and said let's say there are certain people who are also kind of ready and able and capable to do the extraordinary heroic things and and we need them and combination of these people doing small good things, and people doing the right things is something what really can save the humanity if you want save the country, save the cities. And that is what I believe in. And I do think that people who face these things, basically have in a certain way extraordinary opportunity in their life, to accept the challenge of the of the responding in a right way on the on the on the threat to humanity, and take your own responsibility to counter that. That gives hard, work hard, a lot of hard emotions, a lot of pain. But that gives you a really one of the most profound meaning meaningful life and meaningful acts, what you can do to respond on a challenge of humanity being threatened, and basically count that with all talent involved all energy you have.
Host 10:33
That's, that's really powerful. And as you say that what comes to mind is this question that was developing that was emerging in the weeks and months after the military and the Myanmar military coup, which was something to the effect of What person do I want to be now who what is my role? Where do I want to fit in? What am I ready to do? What am I willing to sacrifice and this was something that these are not trained soldiers, or or professionals or think tanks that are answering these questions. In the case of Myanmar, these were people coming from backgrounds of studying, they were students, they were, they were in it, they were taxi drivers, and the whole gamut, as, as many people now know, and having to figure out who they were. And even even for me, that was something I had to put to myself, I wasn't in Myanmar, so I wasn't facing life or death for my own life and the same stakes they were. But certainly there were allies of Myanmar who were outside that we're having to figure out to what extent do I want this conflict to start to impact and shaped my life and how much I'm willing to sacrifice and to give for, not just for for time, and for mental balance, but also for depending on how one is connected to the country for other kinds of personal stakes as well. And I think that when these crises come, these are this question of like, who am I? And what do I want to give? This is something you don't know until you're in that moment, and whoever you were before, and whatever your skill sets were, it could be vastly different when you're faced in those moments and figuring out what is it I want to do? Who is that I want to become? What What am I willing to sacrifice? How am I willing to fit in? And I think in those times of conflict, that's where you really can come to see yourself and understand oneself who, who one really is in those moments. And that's certainly what I've seen of myself just from where I'm standing, and definitely a privileged place, but with, with where, with how the decisions I've had to make personally of where and how I want to engage in a much higher stakes and much bigger platform seen those Myanmar activist in the country that are choosing to what degree they want to participate in and engage and what they're willing to do what they're willing to learn. And it's really been remarkable to see the maturity and the courage and the selflessness as some of these values that you mentioned, that have risen to the occasion. And so I'm wondering, going back to yourself as a young man and that situation, how do you recall how you made that decision? How you found out who am I ready to become the old world has been torn down, we're facing what appears in your words as an end of days, right now. And there is a chance and an opportunity to not run away to do something instead, what is it I want to do? What is it I can do? Do you remember the thought process of how you came to determine who you were going to be in this new world.
Igor Blazevic 13:33
I was I remember it very well as I was, in a moment when the war started in Bosnia, in my city and when city was came under the siege, I was in that moment, in a certain way, in a very privileged position, because I was in that moment living abroad, so I was not in a city. And my family was in the city, my parents and my sister, they couldn't get out. And in that moment, that was the time before the internet. So telephone connections have been broken very quickly. So for the first six months, I did not get any news about what was going on with them with my family. And the only news that I'm receiving is this current than regular news saying today that has been one time the trails falling on Sarajevo and there are so many dead people that are so much sniper fire. And that has been a nightmare for me and I spent certain amount of the time really being totally paralyzed from the from the fear from the terror from the feeling of the powerlessness from but then I started to run around Czech Republic to run the Prague let's say to basically drawing attention was going on On finding some new friends with whom I started to basically collect aid. And very quickly, let's say we bless managed to raise enormous amount of really big amounts of money here in the Czech Republic. And we started to take these aids to the Bosnian to Sarajevo, that has been also for me opportunity then to enter into the city. And then I spent the war going in and out in and out and bringing the aid. But one thing what I have immediately started to do, I was not just bringing the aid to Bosnia, but I was taking out the stories I was taking out, even in place a number of the moments I organize outside of the Besiege Sarajevo art and cultural events, showing how spiritually and artistically, saliva is defending itself from the from the Serbian aggression. Because for me, it has been very, very important not to allow that the world around us, reduce us to the victims, reduce us to somebody who needs to get the get the little humanitarian aid let's, for me, it has been very, very important to say no, no, guys, this is about our dignity, we have a dignity. We are human beings, we are in a certain way now more human beings than anybody else. And so I was investing a lot a lot of time in basically showing the survival cultural and artistic resistance to the to the to the war.
Host 16:44
That's wonderful. And another thing I'm wondering about your experience with that, in terms of how it highlights and contrasts with how we're seeing with Myanmar, is that now in Myanmar, of course, many people are just trying to survive, to look at dealing with trauma or leaving leading a mentally balanced life going forward. These are not privileges that really anyone has there, and just the mere survival, but someday, this is going to end and there are going to be survivors and then one moves on from this in some way yet, I'm sure that these things mark you to some degree, for better and for worse, in ways that very, it's very hard to escape from they start to define you and revisit some of these scenes of great sacrifice and humanity as well as the opposite of that as one moves forward. So looking at yourself in your own journey and everything you went through and everything you gave, how has this experience of supporting of being in a role of the role you played in the Bosnian Civil War? How has that stayed with you? How is it defined you for better for worse after the conflict ended? Let me give you your
Igor Blazevic 17:53
first letter story, your example of my mother, she has been in Sarajevo during the whole war. And at the end of the war, she has been in such a deep depression in a certain way post war situation is is even harder than the war during the war. You basically just pump all these survival adrenaline in yourself in order to survive. But then once in a moment when you became well let's say that okay, why is now I ended but everything around you and your life is destroyed. That is another big challenge. And then my mother has been really candidate has such a deep depression that that she and has believed let's say that she will never come back. And then lesson she started, let's say with one small kind of volunteer group to paint. She wasn't painting before. But she started to paint and suddenly she discovered that she is a very talented painter. And since that time she has made 1000s of the of the beautiful paintings. And that is how she recovered and reconnected with with the with the new beginning of the of the life. So this is something what flows are different people in Myanmar also individually will need to find their own way, how they will transform their trauma and their pain into something either creative or active or reflective or whatever. I have also collapsed out to the end of the war. I spent that in the end of the war couple of months being basically broken person. But then I undertook a year and a half long trip to the Southeast Asia. I moved it was 1997 I moved to the Hong Kong and from Hong Kong I was making documentary films across the Southeast Asia. And this creed disconnecting myself from from from Bosnia in that moment, and plunging myself into the experience of the of the new Continental the new culture of the, of the everything in a certain way different than what I have known in new exploring, but transforming it immediately into documentary films and into reflection helped me helped me a lot, listen to recover. And then at the end of the story, at the end of the day, I transformed my experience from the boss Nia, into conscious decision that I will continue to help people who are going through the similar experiences like we have gone into Bosnia, my own experience made the specific sensibility in myself lenses, so I sometimes have a feeling that I hear and I feel, let's say, when I, when I see the people's pain, and and then I made myself kind of the ready to turn my own trauma into the action for others.
Host 21:13
Right, yeah, that was my, where my next question was going, we're looking at first on a personal level of how one overcomes, and has, after going through some traumatic experience of just surviving, then once one survives, how to how to live back in the world with a sense of humanity with this, with with with a sense of balance after what one had to do and suppress in order to get through it. But then the second question is, the follow up for that is really looking at these wider themes. And when people might be involved in a in an immediate conflict, or very acute things that are happening every day, there could be an attention to that, and and trying to resolve it and get through it. But then, once that does resolve those values, that becomes part of one's outlook in the world and in life. And that certainly is the case for you, as you've just explained that the how you were plunging into democracy and human rights, and how it related directly to you and to your family into your home. Once that reached some kind of resolution, you then took those values in around the world and looking at other societies that did not have those privileges that there's so many of us have, and don't realize what happens when they're stripped away. So after you mentioned a bit about how you went to Southeast Asia and set up there and did some documentary, what else did you do to bring these values more into the world and to find and support people that were that they were lacking these as you would lack them in Bosnia.
Igor Blazevic 22:45
And I was, I had them set away two starting points after the end of the war in my country and my personal experience. So, one starting point is this personal transformation, which through which I have gone, but another starting point has been basically the story of the or the Czechoslovakia, or then later on Czech Republic that means country, which has I was living in and that was the country, which has basically gone through the two occupations, Nazi occupation, and after that, Moscow communist of occupation, that has been the country which has basically been long, long time under the dictatorship. And then it became free in in 1989. And started to basically enjoy its own freedom, but and in a certain way to grab the older opportunities which have been opened for the people living in a Czech Republic in the early 90s. And a lot of tracks here, basically wanted to be as rich as Germans, they wanted to have as good cars, as the Germans. But luckily, let's say there has been also another group or the tracks. That means former dissidents, let's say very much kind of the people like Vaslav Havel, who articulated for themselves in that moment, a very simple but very powerful idea. And they said, somebody has helped us as a as a trick dissidents facing the totalitarian communist regime, which we believe will never end. But we still oppose it and somebody was standing behind us. So now when we got free, now it's our obligation or it's an our chance our opportunity to help others who are still living in in a dictatorship. So we're still in the middle of the of the wars. So that has been a not huge but completely small group of the other very active checks. And in the part of this society who felt this strong commitment that now when we are free, we need to take the responsibility for the suffering of the others. And not just say from this humanitarian point of view, but really from the point of view of the of the freedom, because it has been our most profound experience in the Czech Republic, you know, fighting or dreaming about freedom, waiting from the freedom, sacrificing for the freedom, fighting for the freedom and finally getting it. And there has been another kind of stream or another way in which I was riding in that moment with, with a group of the Czech people. And we started to get involved in, in, in helping people in a conflict in Kosovo in Chechnya, in territory, a former Yugoslavia and many other countries. But also we started to travel to the dictatorships countries, to Cuba, to Belarus, to berrima. And to meet the families of the political prisoners to meet the dissidents who have not been in jail in that time, and to show to them that somebody cares for them that somebody is aware, and that somebody is ready to help let's and that was also then the moment when the huvelle, nominating and Sansa chi for the Nobel Peace Prize, which will she got, and then these kinds of specific relation between the Czechs and the people in Myanmar and democracy movement in Myanmar started to build up.
Host 26:32
That's, that's really incredible, it's really incredible to hear that story. Because you think about people that are going through something that is so traumatic, and so difficult. And when they come out the other end, just wanting to get to some normality in life, maybe even as you mentioned, some comfort like being rich like the Germans, but And yet, there are also people with the consciousness that are looking at the freedom that they achieved against all odds. And that is not a freedom other people in the world have, and they're going to work on that behalf. That's, that's really inspiring it, hearing that it reminds me of when I visited Hiroshima, and in Japan, and when I, when I went out, one of the things that really struck me and really surprised me was how international, the International Humanitarian the museum and the grounds were, of course, they talked about Hiroshima, and the contacts and the bomb dropping there and all that information. But there was so much information there about in general about the danger of nuclear weapons around the world and the need for for everyone to be vigilant and to be aware and to it was almost like this, this this deep scar and trauma that that Hiroshima experienced, was something that they were bringing out through their exhibitions, not only to remember themselves, what they faced and their own trauma and disruption, but as an example for humanity not to do again, and it just really struck me as something I hadn't seen in many other historical monuments of how universal and contemporary that message was. And to think of how Czech Republic has done that, especially with Pavel. That's quite inspiring. And you also touch upon this unique relationship between the Czech Republic and Myanmar, which is not one that I think many would would be intuitive to many people who aren't following this. And I should mention that someone on my team is I was preparing for this interview and I, I dropped some names of some of yourself and, and others associated with Czech Republic that I'm undertaking some interview soon he did some Google searches. This is a team member in Yangon, he wrote back and said, I had no idea that the Czech people had been supporting us to this extent, just the sense of like, I thought we were so low, and I had no idea they cared so much about us. So on that note, for for those who don't know how the Czech Republic has been there as a friend for Myanmar, and this kind of special connection, talk a bit about how that began and how that has progressed through the years.
Igor Blazevic 28:50
It was it was really started very much with let's say hello, and people in his team in that moment. In a certain way, we can't say denying Nobel Peace Prize for him because it doesn't work that that way. But early 90s Hubbard was a global celebrity. And and then there has been a lot of people approaching him and saying, Oh, Mr. President, we will nominate you for the Nobel Peace Prize you are you have done so much and so on. And he was he was extraordinary modest person. He was extraordinary. Very, very special person and, and he never liked to be in the spotlight. He in that moment. He was very much in a spotlight but he never liked to be in a spotlight. And he had this approach. Oh, now I'm in a spotlight. So I will invite these poor dissidents let's say around the world because he knows this experience of being dissident being under the threat being rejected. And then let's say spotlight will come on me and then I to move into shadow and let the dissidents let's say, come into the spotlight so that world sees them. And he was doing that let's say relatively systematically and that was the in one moment also kind of decision between him and us. Let's say let's kind of start to bring the answers to chi the Myanmar activists to into the spotlight, I have visited first time Myanmar when basically Hubble told me in the front go there and bring anything bring some photos, bring some details, bring some testimonies, and then we will do the exhibition in the Czech Republic, I will come to this exhibition, because I will come then a lot of media will come and then we will tell the story of the Myanmar to the to the other people. And then we have been doing it for quite a number of the year. We are basically together with the Havel using his popularity his global star statues in order to draw attention to the Myanmar but also to the activists in Cuba to the activist in in in Guillen was center in a number of the other other countries. And parallel to that the organizations with which I had been in that moment, which was called people in need. It was growing, as the organization is starting to be involved in many, many more projects, and many other ways how to operate. But the beginning has been this collaboration with the hovel, and basically bringing attention to the to the activists, families of the political prisoners, dissidents, we also have been them traveling to these places or meeting people on the border area, and bringing them some small assistance, financial aid computers and stuff like that. But I think once it is kind of this genuine sense of the friendship and commitment, and using for very long time, let's say hovels celebrities, statues, has been the most important thing what we have done.
Host 32:04
Right, so your first visit to Myanmar, was under humble suggestion of wanting to go to Myanmar dictatorship at that time and report on what you saw how you can help how you can bring elements from that country and culture into check so that more people can understand and be aware. Can you tell us what year that was, when you went and what your impressions were and what you did on that trip?
Igor Blazevic 32:29
I hope I have done two things I have basically I made the during that first trip. But then there's been two trips combined. On the first trips, we have just doing a little bit taking basically random photos from the streets of the young goon. We have met just few people not to endanger anybody, but then prepare ourselves for the second trip. The second trip I have done let's say with all of the with the small camera, I have spent a certain amount of time on the Thai Burma border filming, I was making a film about basically free generation of the political prisoners in Myanmar. And that film was finishing with a portrait of the Minko nang who has been in that moment in a jail in a jail. So whole film was used for the advocacy for for his nada generation. Guys release. But and then I basically spent the talk in, you know, on a border area with, I would say previous generations of the other political prisoners who in that moment had been already released and in on the border. And then in one moment, I entered into the country and spend 10 days there, doing two secret filming things, and then also kind of doing a certain filming around around the streets.
Host 34:01
And so as someone who has lived through conflict in your homeland, and who has since dedicated himself to the causes of human rights and democracy, as what would you how would you describe your initial impressions of Myanmar, there's of course, when you were going there's, I would say there's some it's characterized by some hot flashes and also some cold marks hot flashes, meaning the periodic uprising and protests that happen as well as in the border in the ethnic areas which are unfortunately, hot, more percentage of the time and the more kind of cold vibe if you if you will, which is the low grade oppression, it's not quite violence on the streets, but it's certainly not freedom. It's a constant fear that's not named a an awareness of of the terror that that could come at any time even if it's not present. And so as you come into this very different environment from Eastern You're up where you were? What? What struck you? What impressions happened? Did you notice similarities and things that converged with your past experience? Or did you were you finding a different shape to what what you'd experienced before.
Igor Blazevic 35:14
And to be frank, I, I haven't been particularly surprised by by Canada anything in that moment when I entered into the Myanmar had been already for some time living in, in other countries in Southeast Asia. So, in a certain way, Southeast Asia was not exotic, exotic to me, the I have kind of overgrown these kind of sure being fascinating by the by the exotic thing and I started much more to appreciate the real life and the real relations behind the exotic facade. On the other side, I have been involved in that moment traveling to Cuba to other other dictatorship, I had spent a significant part of my life at that moment into the into the society in states which are police state. So, in a certain way, I had this fear in myself, I know what this is. So, for me, it was more kind of striking, how these things are similar, I say how basically, you know, pretty much everywhere, the people feel the fear in the same way the police states can be you know, packaged in this way or another way, but at the end of the day, they in a very banal simple way, same in the way how they flicked how they introduce fear in the people. So, so, I was when I was there, I was really kind of very, very focused on what is my task, what I need to do and how to do it in a way that I reduce the risk on anybody with whom I will have a
Host 37:01
meeting. Right, that was actually my follow up question. And I was curious about the as someone who has studied and been to so many places where conflict and authoritarianism are present, looking at in what ways Myanmar might be similar what what what basic structures of governance and society you find there that you found other places, which you already answered? So the other part of that question is, is there any ways in which you found the Myanmar case distinct from the other places you were going that that had authoritarian structures? Is there anything that stands out that was different and how it was set up in Myanmar,
Igor Blazevic 37:34
I have started to discover these kind of different sides of the Myanmar if you want is in a moment much later, let's say when I basically started to already basically fully leave as the I was not immediately and I Myanmar, I was first in Chiang Mai two years. And then I moved to the to the Yangon and when I started to run the program, which was called educational initiative, what was comparative political science courses for the activists, former political prisoners and an ethnic activists. And it has been a period when I was for about three months always, literally, living together, sleeping together, eating together and lead learning together with a groups of the 2025 activists from Myanmar. And then I started to learn much more about the country because it was much more intense relation. And probably the first things what places in subway hit me has been when I had a group of the students in my class, seven of them have been from the Bama ethnic community. All of them have been former political prisoners. That means let's say they have spent minimum seven years in a jail. There has been a guy who has spent 15 years in jail. So I think all together seven of them has been about 100 years in a jail. So this has been one group and another group has been a little bit younger activists coming from the ethnic territories, and you can move easily described them as a children who have grown up in the ethnic cleansings. So I have two groups of the very active people in a class and both of them have been carrying a huge drama. And then the first thing what I was facing is one group blaming the other, the ethnic room, blaming the Obama group for all the bad things what military has done to the ethics in trying to get from the bomber group. Add some words are the regret trying to get something and then this bomber group was reacting on that, but hey guys, we have not heard you we have been sitting in a jail we we haven't done anything wrong and then you get this kind of very very tenuous relations between the two groups. And and then I started to kind of learn much, much deeper about the complexities of the Myanmar society and, and how hard it is an it will be to pull the society together and to find common understanding the way what I was saying to in that time to my students and say, Hey, guys, don't try to find who is right and wrong. Don't blame each other for being wrong. But please, let's say let just each other talk, listen to each other, but listen carefully. And then let's say also tell two other your story. So I was trying to encourage them to abandon abandon this blaming game, and enter into the listening and understanding game, but it was not easy. And then the P code that with another group of the students, I again, have a Bama group, and I have an ethnic group. And then I have one wonderful, great Rohingya girl. And then we came together, 90% of the other students turned to me and say, Let's kick her out of the class, she doesn't talk to us. And that was painful. That was that I can't tell you how much it was painful for, let's say, the colleague Rohingya girl, how painful it has for me. And, and then I turned to the group and say, Okay, if your that is your attitude, let's pick up and everybody leaves, leaves, everybody leaves, then we had, in a certain way needed to absorb that. We have overcome blessing, the immediate crisis. But it wasn't easy for these Rohingya girl, she felt rejected from the beginning, after certain period of time, the part of the group turned toward her in a protective way. But the part of the group never took the understanding and protective away. So she was crying a lot. And I was in the evening classes saying to her look, if you find the strength now, in this group, you will have a strength lesson when you go out to the to the big world, to tell what you need to tell as everybody else. So find your strength, find your strength, and she has really kind of manage, because she has the strength internally in herself. But I think that experience also helped a little bit additionally, to understand that she needs to be able to stand. And she is now one of the most prominent kind of spokesperson of the not only of the Rohingya, but really of the of the of the victims in in Myanmar. So I'm very proud to say that she she has been my student, and I'm very proud. Let's say that basically, we have gone through these very, very hard experience of kind of discussing who belongs to us and who doesn't.
Host 43:21
That's an incredible story. And it strikes me that you're doing this work during the transition period. And I imagine that so much of what you were working on then was kind of this window that not many other people had interest or access to because there were so many other things going on with investment and with the way the country was developing and with opportunities that you were looking deeper under a corner that people didn't necessarily want to examine, you know, what's happening with the generals who committed these crimes. Are we just going to let them get off and keep their riches what's happening with the people who are harmed the Bomar political prisoners who've lost so much of their life and have sacrificed so much to perhaps help get us to this point? How about the ethnics and what they've gone through for generations as communities what they're still going through. And these were questions that people were were many were not so interested in wanting to spend time on these areas, which seemed like going back when so much of the country was going forward. Of course, when the coup happened, I think it's been apparent to many people inside outside the country ethnic as well as Bomar that these things were never resolved. They were an absolute mess. That's perhaps what led to the coup taking place. And now is the time to go back and start to examine and look at these as a society in a much wider way than that I've seen done before and Myanmar, but I think it's really interesting to look at your experience because you were looking at this corner at a time when it was not so popular interested to look at the story was really the the Obama coming and Christine Myanmar is This new democracy and freedom opening up and these feel good stories, at least up until the some crisis of the Rohingya got got really bad and really awful in the way it was covered and national news. But if someone like yourself who was here, looking under these dark corners or messy areas that other people maybe tended to want to stay away from what stands out for you in being in Myanmar, at a time when there was so much optimism, so much was opening up, you were looking at these corners that not many were. And now since the coup has happened, this is really a defining way to understand the country and to want to resolve these issues.
Igor Blazevic 45:39
That was when I was leaving in in Myanmar, that was between 2011 and 2016. And that was this kind of period of the order or the huge optimism of the of the international community. In what's happening in Myanmar, I have been much more cautious and much more. I wouldn't say skeptical, because I also hoped and I also wish to the country to move forward. But basically the big amount of the of the learning what I was sharing with my colleagues in in Myanmar, and they are really hardcore activists has been in 2011 2012. Hey, guys, this is not transition to democracy, you are going through this transit transition to the in political science describe it as a hybrid regime. That means let's say this is the transition to the regime in which military remains the dominant power in a country and allowed certain democratic facade. And we need to be the cave careful. So we need to in a certain way, think about how we use the space or the freedom which has been open. And at the same time, don't fall in a trap, a trap of the of the pink glasses, enthusiastically cheerleading, the transition to democracy, which was not happening there. So I have been the voice of the or the warning the voice of the deeper understanding what's going on. And I think for that reason, I have really gained a certain amount of respect among the people, because people in the Myanmar have instinctively felt that something is wrong. And that way, they didn't need me as a foreigner or they didn't need anybody of us as a foreigner, they didn't need the specific comparative political science expertise, their instincts have been telling them that something was really not okay. And then they need to be careful that because they have been surrounded by these Phoria, they have been confused, and I was helping in a certain way to the to, to explain to them that they should not be confused, their instincts are right. And I was helping basically them find the right words, the right descriptions, the right parallels to translate these good instinctive understanding of the real reality, and then put it in us at an explanation in words, similar things happened when the the kinds of radical Buddhist movements started to appear when mammoth Mahabharata started to appear when the first communal violence started to happen. In that moment, I had been probably the first one probably one of the three, who basically said, Hey, guys, and I started very much to talk about that. I say, Hey, guys, this is not communal violence. This is not whatever I have seen this intersection here. Let's say this is the military intelligence, starting to instigate fear into the majority population through hand picking the smallest and most vulnerable group in a society to blame them as a source of the threat and anger. When I started to talk, and I said, this is manipulation. This is beginning of the pre election campaign for the USDP and prepare a preparation to attack the NLD, let's say from the position of the protection of the nation and religion. When I started to talk about that 95% of my Myanmar friends and all of them have been Democrats, all of them have been human rights activist people who have spent the life in a jail for fighting for the freedom. They told me you don't understand our country. Let's say you're a foreigner you are wrong. Let's say we are really under the threat. And I said up A let's say you might be right, I'm foreign, I really don't understand your country. But I'm just bringing you some experiences from other places. And this, this something is wrong here, something is wrong here, I see the deep manipulation, that the manipulation happened in other countries that happen also, Serbia in Serbia, nationalism was happening. And for about six months, basically, nobody was listening me or I was kind of the lone voice in a desert smiles and even more after one year, a lot of people are coming back to me and saying, oh, sigh You have been right. That has been really kind of the very smart manipulation. And the communal violence and everything would happen was really kind of manufactured in order to basically prepare ground for the attack on the on the Democratic democratic forces. So I think that with my experiences and my commitment in that moment to Myanmar, I have been in the right place in the right time with the right knowledge and right experiences. And in that I have contributed a little bit to better understanding what's going on there. Through debt, I gain a lot of very, very good friendships. And these very, very good brand friend friendships became for me the commitment, which has been reactivated when the call started, because when the call started, I just felt that I need to stop everything else what I'm doing, and that I should stand behind my friends and former students in Myanmar.
Host 51:33
So how was it Do you think that this Tama now this evil regime that before the transition, I was there before the transition so I know this from my experience was so hated and feared and despised and wanting to get away from and then just several years into the so called transition? Suddenly, there's signs on the street and signboards on the road that say, we stand with the tama da you know, I stand with the with the military, they are protecting me. And it was just stunning and bewildering to see that in a few year turnaround that so many Bomar people especially I don't think this is so true of ethnics, but so many Bomar people, specifically who had been victimized and oppressed for and had their opportunities and freedoms cut off for so long. That the minute they started to get those freedoms back or maybe not the very minute but but not very long after they start to see their oppressor as their protector. How did this transformation happened so fast? And do you find this as something that is odd or unusual or something that is, is is is always a potential danger in these transition periods?
Igor Blazevic 52:44
I think it's a typical, I think it's a typical it's the transitions of the multi ethnic societies are really complex transitions of the extremely diverse societies which have a bad history behind themselves of the of the dictatorship, but also back history of the or the communities inflicting heavy wounds one of another, it's really always complex, always uneasy and then you do it better. If you have a wise and responsible political leadership, you will do it very, very bad. If you have political and power leadership, which misuse the people's prejudices, the people's fears, the people people's angles. My explanation more specifically on the Myanmar is following two things. One thing is the military and military intelligence have terribly misused the genuine counter Buddhist tradition of that country, they have infiltrated with the military intelligence, Buddhist Sangha. And as we know in the Myanmar, since you are two years old, when you see the Buddhist monk what you do, you you bought you this is the most ultimate authority in in the life of every single Buddhist person in the country. When you look around the country, nothing functions but the Buddhist monastery is something what functions is the place where people go to, to get the venues to get the understanding of the world to get the food when they need for to get some education because the state doesn't doesn't give them education. So you have the the most respected institution in a country which has been terribly misused by the by the military in order to basically spread the fear and in an anger into the society. I have been once in one In small village, with one family, and there has been a sick person there there is, of course no doctor. So what the family is doing, they brought two Buddhist monks, let's say to do all the all the mantras there to save the sick person. And then in the evening I was talking with these months. And their first question has been, where are you from? From the Czech Republic? The second question has been Do you have a Muslims there? I said, No, we don't have it there lucky country, what has been their response? So and then in that moment, I realized Oh, my God, if all around the country you have 1000s of these monks, who are saying, let's say to their parishes and their villages, that they will be the lucky country, if the, if there will be no Muslims in that country, we are in a deep problem we are. And that was what military has done. Let's say they have really immediate intelligent, they have done it purposely International, intentionally. And it's very hard. It's for any society, particularly these societies, which has been longtime under the dictatorships and they always seek Western societies, which has been longtime under the dictatorship that deeply deeply sick societies, we need freedom to meet critical dialogue, critical reflection to kinda, you know, heal to overcome the deep prejudice. And when you have dictatorships, you don't have these critical mechanisms. So these societies are deeply, deeply, deeply sick. And that has been one reason. The Another reason is that societies which suffered a lot, carry in themselves such a deep frustration, that they very often don't have easy way, how to overcome in a positive way. And then there is always opportunity to do it another way to blame somebody who is weaker than you, who blame somebody who is a little bit different than you, and who is a very, very vulnerable, so in a certain way, and the bad politicians know how to do it. And in they've so often in Myanmar, and in other places, have misused this really collective psychological need to get rid of your own frustration by mistreating somebody else who is more vulnerable than you.
Host 57:28
Right, you mentioned that if there had been different political leadership, this might have been something that is difficult as it is and as problematic as the potentialities and the tendencies are, that different political leadership could have tried to navigate a different way. So looking at that question of political leadership, especially after 2015 When the NLD and on Santucci had greater control of not certainly not full control, but but had more that they can do than before. What is your analysis of what this political leadership did and perhaps where they where they neglected?
Igor Blazevic 58:09
Look, I am sensing he is getting a lot of criticism on the understand what she has taken on the on the Rohingya issue and rightly so rightly so. But one thing what was really not noticed by most of the analytics is that NLD after becoming the government has done a lot to de escalate the hate and anger into the country. So that has not been answered. So Qi kind of the publicly making clear stand on the side of the Rohingya, but as a as a, as a dominant political force in that moment, they have done a significant thing to you know, to de escalate all these propaganda and mechanisms, what members and military intelligence standing behind that have been fueling for number the years before that. And I think let's say that, you know, they deserve to, to get that credit, let's say they have NLD and uncensor QI have not been somebody who was fueling the hate and anger in the people against the minorities in order to counter keep and gain the power. It has military doing that ang San su chi has not been able to confront them on the Rohingya issue. I think let's say that uncensor chi has done another big mistake. And that mistake has been that she has not integrated into the first government what she was chairing the ethnic political representatives. that she has. She had the opportunity in that moment that even if NLD has been the winning party, overwhelmingly winning, winning party and the ethnic, most of the ethnic parties have not performed well, in the elections, she had opportunity to integrate into the first democratically elected government, many, many more people who will be seen by the ethnic nationalities in Myanmar as their genuine representatives. And she should have done that, let's say if she have done that. I would think let's say that we will today have a far less problems in in creating the genuine align front, which will defend the country against the rock military. She has not done it, because she believed that people want her and that she alone is able to deal with the military, which has been a big strategic miscalculation.
Host 1:01:06
Right. So when the coup took place, can you say that you were surprised Is that something you anticipated? What was your feeling and analysis when the coup was launched,
Igor Blazevic 1:01:17
I have not expected that coup will happened. I have not predicted that. And that was a little bit crowded the coup was so obviously such a wrong. So obviously, that in a certain way, even if you have all evidence, you don't want to believe in that. You just don't want to accept it. Because it has been so unnecessary. It has been so destructive. It has been so stupid military at all. They needed to control the basically economy of the country. And they have done the coup only for the personal ambition and a personal greed of the minimum plank. And, and that it was, you know, it was it was so hard to accept. Even if you you know your mind to read, rational analysis tells you that might happen emotionally, you don't want to accept that as a possibility. Because let's say it was so destructive, and so on and unnecessary.
Host 1:02:32
Right, going back to some of the conversations that you were hosting in from 11, to 16, when you were in Myanmar and trying to have these critical engagements, something stands out from what you said, which I bookmarked and wanted to come back to for current times, you were talking about the nature of the conversations you were having, and the importance of this critical dialogue, even where it was extremely painful. And there were biases, and the groups weren't necessarily getting along. It's something that really hits my heart, I had my bat educational background as a trainer, I worked as a trainer in Myanmar. So in a different period, I was having different kinds of conversations and and facilitating communication, which I'm a big believer in the power of communication when it's when it's facilitated in the right way. It can really produce magic and miracles. It's sometimes it's it's a privilege to be involved in. But looking at the work you were doing then and one of the things you mentioned about that was that this needs to be happening on a wider scale this these kinds of conversations are essential for the country to develop. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I don't remember exactly how you put it. That was what, what I took away from it. I'm curious about where we are right now. And I guess this is a two part question first, is there the kinds of conversations that you were having the kinds of conversations that are possible and having the wildly diverse and different ethnic and religious and geographical groups in Myanmar come and talk to each other to have an honest dialogue to listen with an open heart even when it's painful to share their stories? Is that that that kind of critical dialogue and conversation? Is there any place for that to happen now? Or is Do you feel that the current need is simply to resist the military? That's the overriding priority? And that this is a dialogue that should be happening, hopefully once the military is defeated, or what role do you see those kinds of critical engagements playing in current days or near future?
Igor Blazevic 1:04:37
I think that this dialogue and critical thinking needs a freedom and it's time. So for that reason, I think that it's a good when it's if it is still going on, and it's partly still going on. But I do think that The real moment for that will come if and when the country will, again, get the freedom. I think that what is now much more important is to have the common victory, that, that we have the different groups joining together and defeating junta and defeating Minang clunk. Because if they have a common victory, then they will have a completely new layer of the other deep relations and trust if you want. And that will be far better starting point for also discussing how the country should look like in the future, and how to reconcile all these different complexities and disproportionality is. And so my attitude in this moment is, hey, guys, let's focus as much as we can, that we collectively participate, then join and contribute as much as we can to weaken the Taekwondo in order to remove the minimum plank and military. And then let's kind of pick up and discuss all other things one by one.
Host 1:06:33
And you talked about you're somewhat you're surprised that the coup was launched, of course, it was a really terrible decision as someone who has also spent so much time studying the country and being involved in different ways from different angles. Looking now at the resistance movement that has developed the the and the wider CDM, the N ug, the the PDFs that are there, what what strikes you about the resistance movement in the last year and a half? Have would you say that you would have predicted some of the way that it's gone? Are there things that have stood out surprised you
Igor Blazevic 1:07:07
surprised and impressed? How much resilience, strength creativity, the movement has been able to show and bring back every single day and every single week, month after month, for already 1819 months, I'm really impressed. Impressed. I know, because I'm quite long time involved in in the struggles of the people for freedom in, in many, many places around the world. And in most of the places when you have these mass popular uprising of the means of the people aspiring from the freedom when they face the debt level of the brutality and that level of the repression, what we are facing in a Myanmar. And when that repression goes on for three, four months, then usually people give up. It's simply too much to endure. And that kind of the level, that level of the of the of the repression and pressure. So what what really kind of struck me what surprised me what inspires me what what creates adoration in me, is the internal strength and internal courage are the people of Myanmar to not to give up this time, and to fight back.
Host 1:08:49
Right, since as the Myanmar conflict has gone on, of course, there's been a crisis that developed in Ukraine. And there have been some analyses contrasting the two conflicts, the nature of them the support or lack of support that one is getting compared to the other we did a whole show on this examining the crises and the responses to Ukraine and to Myanmar. What are your thoughts and looking at how these conflicts have progressed, the Resistance movements, the international support the awareness and advocacy? What do you see similarities and differences between Ukraine and Myanmar now?
Igor Blazevic 1:09:25
So look, let's say Ukraine, the one you can didn't started in 2000, when the war in Ukraine started in 2014. And for very, very long period of time, nobody was standing up behind Ukrainians, nobody was helping them. So so that was my first respond. It was not that the outside world help Ukrainians, but it was Ukrainians who help themselves let's say who have shown for the for the number of years, extraordinary strength and determination not to give up. So so so that is the first factor. That's the world Old is not coming to help anybody. Because somebody is weak, the world sometimes comes to help you when you show that determination and strength and readiness to defend yourself
Host 1:10:15
while sad him.
Igor Blazevic 1:10:16
So the second thing is the world or the world, it's not worth it was Europe and United States coming to help Ukraine not because Ukraine is democracy under the attack of the dictatorship, they're coming to help Ukraine because Ukraine is defending European security. The Russian aggression on the Ukraine has really hit the deepest fears of the country's a little bit more on the west from Ukraine, meaning us in the Czech Republic polls and others who have been occupied Baltic States, who have been occupied by the by the Moscow for for four decades. So Europe has been shrinking with the fear that you know, Russian aggression has started in in Ukraine and will go on further to Europe. And then Europe is now helping Ukraine to defend itself. There is no geopolitical security in the national interests of either Europe, or even United States in a Myanmar. And that is the big difference. That's that that's, that's a painful difference. But it's that is the difference. I can also say, you know, Nobody of us, I then Myanmar on Europe cat, when the Russians are helping Assad killed the serious. So we have been, you know, in a moment when US Russians are helping us are helping us to do the same thing what now junta is doing in, in Myanmar. Myanmar had a pretty good relations with Putin and Russia. So in a certain way, we also should kind of go back and ask ourselves, you know, the world is not behaving better to us than we have been fair behave to the others. The third reason, important reason is unfortunately, Myanmar has this bed bed neighborhood. That basically none of the countries around the region around the Myanmar is really kinda ready to stand behind the democratic movement, although it was interest, not only of the Myanmar, but also the neighboring country, and in the West is very reluctant to make Myanmar, the battlefield of the proxy war between the US and China, that that will not be good for the Myanmar. So I think that the West and all others should do much, much more. And I'm everyday trying to persuade everybody whom I can, that we should do much, much more. But there is kind of also that important reason, you can send the weapons to Ukraine, let's say because we have direct border between the Western democracy and Ukraine, there is no border around Myanmar, through which let's say you can get the Western weapons to the democratic movement. In a moment when we do that. China will fully stand behind the junta and that will not be in the interest of everybody, anybody.
Host 1:13:34
Right. appreciate how you mentioned that. Just because the country is weak does not mean that the international community will come and support it. Sometimes that happens, sometimes they make more mess of it. And sometimes they look away and don't do anything and that if a people and country wants to be free, they need to stand up and show their compelling commitment and sacrifices to what they're trying to aim for, as well as showing that they have a chance of actually succeeding. And then from there, there might be some help and assistance that comes and towards those ends. We've seen a resistance movement here in Myanmar that we've never seen in seven years since since the initial coup of 62 of just how how, how unified they've been how, what they've done and being able to bring the fight back. And for those who haven't been following this closely in the initial days and months after the coup, there were a series of non violent protests that people took to the streets, tried to encourage soldiers and police to lay down their arms and join their side appeal to international community for dialogue and RTP and other things. The military responded extremely violently with their crackdown, and that ultimately led to the creation of PDF units of the people's Defence Force, along with aOZ the ethnic armed organizations and we've seen a an armed resist It's take place in many forms now across the country. So what? To what degree? Have you been following the formation of these PDF and Ayios? And their response? And what are your thoughts on what they've been able to do and what they should be doing in an extremely difficult set of circumstances.
Igor Blazevic 1:15:21
I was I was I was following it very, very closely. I was climbing a contact with people who might know well as it would have been the part of the of the of the peaceful protests and in one moment have gone and joined the armed resistance movement. But it's also necessary to say that, and it is impressive that that's another side what is impressive, the the Civic resistance to the military junta didn't stop. What we have now is not the Civic resistance, shifting to the armed resistance. Because let's say that they face all the brutality and killing of the junta, what we have is, is genuine, strong and nationwide, extremely creative, extremely strong, popular civic resistance, which lasted for three, four months, trying to in a peaceful way, in a non violent way to stop junta from consolidating power, and they succeeded to stop junta from consolidated power, coming down to these repression, they have been calling for the international community to come and help, nobody came to help. And in one moment, people have a choice, they have a choice to give up, and then spend the next 20 years under the military dictatorship. And then after 20 years raise up again, or they had opportunity, or option and choice to say, Okay, we continue to resist and defend ourselves with all means, which we have, including the military, arms, arms resistance, so they just expanded the ways how they're defending themselves. So they're still continuing the mass civic resistance. At the same time, they said they have developed capacity and effort to fight them with the arms, nobody's arming them, nobody's helping them. So it's a really kind of the you're fighting with the whole main guns and then whatever, you can smuggle a little bit to the country or recapture from the from the military. And you move from the basically having zero guerrilla force in a country to what is now probably about 100 people engaged in all these guerrilla guerrilla movements. So that was impressive. Problem is that we are now in in a in a very negative stalemate in which junta cannot defeat the resistance movement anymore, there is no chance one can do it. But junta can continue to, you know, do a lot of harm a lot of destruction of the of the people, villages, economy and so on. And resistance can block junta from consolidated power, but it cannot, it cannot properly down anytime soon. And then we are in this kind of a negative dynamic, which is just kind of the deepening the destruction and melting down of the country. And we are more and more moving in the direction of Myanmar de facto starting to break into the different fragments of the territory controlled by the different Armed Forces, which is very, very kind of the dark development. And I'm really kind of extraordinary, angry, that the neighbors of Myanmar and international community don't want to see that reality and that they are still in actively sitting and waiting for something to happen internally. So that in a certain way, fire extinguish extinguish itself, but fire will not distinguish itself and country will keep on collapsing. And basically me becoming a dissertation which will be irrepairable. And then we will have a country divided into the 567 different fragments with the different forces and it will be held to leave in that.
Host 1:19:44
There's so much there. There's so much that ground that you cover that is really essential to going back and exploring understanding what the first thing is that you said something quite profound, which I've now seen as a sediment among various things. various different articles different analysis have been putting forward, which is some variation of the line, the military cannot when the military is not there is no pathway for them for victory. I don't I think I would like to say that with a little hesitation, because I, I don't want to tempt the gods of fate by saying that it's a it's something they completely can't do, given how history can turn on a dime at times. But I want to go back to that statement of where the stalemate that they're locked in and that the military is is not so is not entirely an offensive unit as they've been before, in many ways. They're simply trying to now defend themselves from the attacks that they're getting from PDFs and videos. revisiting that statement, and perhaps expanding on it and explaining it, can you share some of the thinking behind the the current situation the military finds itself in? And do you believe that there there really is very little, or perhaps even zero chance that the military can come back out on top military can come
Igor Blazevic 1:21:02
back on the top under one condition, and that is if Russia and China will actively provide sustained support to the military. And in a way that basically China will let Russia to be kind of the visible player helping, but China is doing it as well, let's say in a in a significant way that can then that leads us to the, to the something similar like like, like Syria. So far, China is playing very complex game and has not Canada decided to bet fully on the military. And on the other side, let's say, if other countries remain inactive, then we are just prolonging these kind of negative, dynamic and negative stalemate, if there will be more Canada active assistance to the alliances of the democratic and ethnic forces, I think that we can turn dynamic in another direction. But even more importantly, then international assistance would be to reactivate the political process inside the country in strengthening the Alliance or the anti junta forces, and that if that re vigor rated political process, will, in this moment, articulate, very clear roadmap, how the future of the Myanmar can look like without Minang, blank and without junta, if they will can't give the credible narrative, showing that there is an alliance behind the debt narrative that can change the position of China that can change the position of the international community, and that can additionally crack the military itself internally.
Host 1:23:30
How can that be done?
Igor Blazevic 1:23:33
That was the homework what the political and other actors and players in Myanmar must do. They, they have a unique historic opportunity to get rid from the military dictatorship. But they need to come together. Now, we have a situation in which the glass of the Alliance is a half full. If they make it full, they will win in this struggle. After they win the struggle. It will be still not easy to fix a deep complex problems of this country, but there will be a realistic chance.
Host 1:24:24
That's the half that's quite a bit to take and
Igor Blazevic 1:24:26
something what I'm kind of the talking basically every day to every single person who might know in Myanmar, don't wait somebody from outside to help you because they will not. Do it yourself by strengthening your internal alliances, and then you can stretch the data model to the breaking point of junta, you will not stretch that model to the breaking point or the top model. But you can stretch that and go to the breaking point of the junta. If we remove the junta We can set the country on another trajectory in which it will be possible to find the consensus how the country should look like and also to reform the law.
Host 1:25:15
And it seems like that would ostensibly be the role of the N ug in trying to be that top leadership. Is that do you see that as as something that is within the MDGs remit? Or is that something that other groups should be taking on themselves as well,
Igor Blazevic 1:25:33
I think that's the responsibility of everybody. If we think that it's the responsibility or the energy, then we will not come far as the responsibility of the everybody in a subtle way, you know, the every single individual can contribute to that every single civil society organization can contribute to that every single kind of group can contribute to that, and we need in a certain way, or, at least, that's what I'm saying to my friends to the Myanmar, you know, we need the public narratives. Coming from many, many different corners, not from one end up or from one letter, we need the public narratives, coming from the many, many different corners and saying, we need now to come together in order to defeat the biggest problem of our country. And then we will use the freedom which we will get better to sit together and to discuss and to fix all other other problems, it will take time we might agree or disagree. But if we will be defeated, let's say in this struggle, now, the next 20 years, we will not get the chance, but we will leave in slavery, we will leave under the oppression, we will leave under the kleptocratic regime, which will be kind of the serving the greed of the Minang. Blank, his family and other families.
Host 1:26:52
Right in a country where there's not freedom of expression. And there's not free association, obviously, with the kind of conflict that's going on and the nature of the military regime. How can groups and individuals safely try to engage with these kinds of dialogues and coalition's that tell stories and show the wider world what they're doing and how they're doing it while also being mindful of their own safety and security concerns.
Igor Blazevic 1:27:18
We have independent media brave independent media in, in Myanmar, which, miraculously, through their own deep sense of the mission, survived and keep on going. So the public space exists there, there is there is a public space, which is followed by the million other citizens of that country, and quite a significant number of the people from abroad. And and that public space, let's say needs to be filled with the with the really charismatic, brave visions of the future of the country, and in a certain really credible promise how the country can come and leave together as a united nations.
Host 1:28:11
Right. Just going back to the PDF, I also want to ask you, we were talking before about how these groups were effectively forming and armed resistance, even though they didn't have proper background and training or material or weapons or anything else, but that they have been a force to be reckoned with. On the other hand, one of the concerns is code of conduct and the way that these units are organized and what and how they're doing who under whose auspices are their actions taking place and who's controlling them and the dangers of things getting out of hand. So can you speak to what you've seen about how these armed groups have tried to, in one sense, I guess retain their humanity and to to not violate international norms while also having to fight a very a kind of kind of warfare and conflict that is is very unpredictable and very spontaneous and something they have no background in.
Igor Blazevic 1:29:09
Look, if there is now 1 billion US dollars of the money of the Myanmar people sitting in, in a bank in the United States, if that 1 billion US dollars will come to the energy we will have a code of conduct in Myanmar. If we put resources into the hands of the the genuine democratic and federal political force in a country if we put the resources into the existing Alliance, which is not perfect, which is fragile and vulnerable, but it's the best hope when the country have they will succeed to consolidate the chain of the come and they will succeed to consolidate the proper behavior of the of the soldiers on the ground. In a situation when basically they have very, very limited resources, which are mobilized and recruited through the assistance of the diaspora, they don't have too much leverage to use in order to really kind of bring all these different forces together into the unified chain of the command. And then I personally find it a little bit hypocritical and unfair to say, then basically to say, oh, everybody's committing the crimes where everybody is to be blamed. Let's see. So I haven't heard that story. 1 million Stan during the war. Yeah, that's the easiest way. And excuse not to kind of make a hard choice and stand behind somebody to say everybody is to be blamed. Let's so no, let's if you Serbian army has massacred 9000 men in a city of Srebrenica. That's not the same as kind of the Drupal, the 30 people that said, then killing a civilian in a Serbian village. That's simply not the same as when you put the people in a despair situation. You abandon them, and you don't help them. Yes, people do the bad things. And I said, that's, that's the war. So in a certain way, I think let's say this kind of the, you know, there is a full understanding within the new GE and with the between the kind of the government that they need to have a proper behavior in command over their soldiers. They're doing all what they can to impose that. But through international community doing nothing really. At the same time, saying, let's say that all everybody is to be blamed. That's a deeply
Host 1:31:58
Yes. What about ism? Yeah, whatever happens, what about this? What about that? What about ism, so, but about this $1 billion. I've heard about this, since the early days of the coup, that this money of the new GS is sitting there in DC, they don't have access to it. I've never heard a proper explanation as to why they don't have access to their money and what is happening to try to get access to it. Do you know more about that fund?
Igor Blazevic 1:32:24
As far as I also don't know, kind of the Lord because I'm not in any way kind of expert in these kinds of the other things. Let's see, my understanding is that energy is not kinda seen or recognized as a legitimate government, by the by the US government, let's say the US government is supporting the United motors limited way. And thanks God for that. It's supporting the spring revolution, let's say like that. But they have not kind of recognized Myanmar as recognizing your G as illegitimate the government. And for that reason, let's say they probably think let's say that they are not allowed to give that money to them until it was currently decided who is the the de facto government of the of the country but I don't know this details is that be outside of my expertise.
Host 1:33:20
So that's all quite a complex picture that's being painted of a lot of different forces that are moving in different directions and in different ways. And I think at this current time, there could be a danger of those of us that are supporting to feel even from afar feeling disappointed or losing hope, perhaps pessimistic. But I think it's also good to carry that mental spirit and the optimism of what can happen and what is happening among the movement. So with that in mind, what are their stories are things that you think about to keep you going and give you hope even during the darkest days since the cool
Igor Blazevic 1:33:59
look, cleanser, there is one beautiful story, which I discovered really by chance when I was still in that moment living in Chiang Mai. So I have also my my young kids with me and then in the evening I was reading them the this use three did Buddhist stories. And then one of these stories stuck to me in a certain way has been inspiring for me ever since. And the story goes like that. There is the fire starts in a forest. So it's a big fire so all the animals are escaping trying to save their life. And then suddenly there is one small bird who basically is going picking up some drops of the water from the lake and trying to extinguish the fire and then all these escaping Animals are saying Hey stupid girl what was stupid the bird what you are doing, run away and save your life. And then the birds say no, if you don't want to help me Don't take my time I need to do my duty. And then she the bird continues to bring these drops of the water to the to the huge fire. And then the gods on a heaven somewhere I was looking at I say, oh look and the stupid bird. And then they said, the messenger to tell two birds to escape. And messenger say, Hey, stupid the bird go and save your life. And the birds responded, if you don't want to help me, don't waste my time I have my duty to do. And then the bird continue to bring the drops of the water. And then the gods are standing above and looking and saying oh, what we should do. And then they say, Okay, let's send the rain. And then they send the rain and the rain is extinguish the fire. And, and then when you read that, then you ask yourself who really extinguish the fire. And you can say, okay, it has been the miracle has been the gods who sent the rain. But you can take it from the other side and say no, it was really the small bird who extinguish the fire. And, and I see, so many people now in the Myanmar, let's say who are acting as these small bird, which are taking the drops off, they can pick up bringing it to the big big forest fire in their country, and doing what they can to extinguish that. And when I see them doing that, let's say then I feel that I should do the same, I should every single day, bring my drop. And that's the way to go. That's the way that how we can extinguish the fire. And that was the hope I have. So I don't have these kind of the hope or everything will be fine, because we are going really through a very hard, painful and tragic period, period. And we don't know how things will develop. But I think if we go deep and stuck to this attitude, that yes, we can bring our drops, I think we have a good chance to stop the compile in Myanmar.
Host 1:37:28
That's wonderful that's really inspiring inspires me to think of what more drops I have on hand and my resources and background. And I hope the listeners as well it makes listeners also reflect on even if it's just one small drop, none of us can put out an entire fire by our own means but just just a little bit of drop here there to help people and be a witness and be a friend for those who are sacrificing and risking so much for democracy and human rights going forward. So that's a lovely story. And and it's been great talking with you as well, you've really brought some great thoughts and reflections into the current crisis as well as your background and how that's relevant to the trajectory that Myanmar has been on. So thanks so much for joining us, it's
Igor Blazevic 1:38:13
been also a real real pleasure, pleasure and for me, and thank you for the work you are doing for bringing the voices of the good and important people from Myanmar to the outside. And also bringing these kinds of voices back because this is also necessary, it's necessary to be this loop, which is taking the voices from inside and beam it back to the society because that's also one of the ways how we find the strength and encouragement to go through it. And as Churchill said, when you are going through the hell don't stop.
Host 1:39:00
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