Transcript: Episode #131: A Jaded Hellscape (Bonus Shorts)
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Mike Davis, which was released on November 8, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
00:05
In a remote corner of Northern Myanmar, a nation's greatest resource is being plundered. You see all these merchants shining their torches on the stone. It's how you check with the transparency and clarity of the best stones to make them the more transparent it is, the more expensive it is. Let's take a look at this one right here.
Host 00:30
Thank you for taking the time to listen to today's episode. As you know the current crisis in Myanmar is extremely concerning. And we appreciate that you're taking the time to stay informed. There's even value just in becoming more aware and helping to inform others so please consider sharing this episode so that more people may learn about what is really happening in the country it's critical to ensure that this issue remain present in the public discourse. For now let's get on to the interview itself
01:01
I'm fish and tender souls broken hearts and broken homes suffering is invisible to those who cannot see beyond rebels. A look at the way that are laid out a good day.
Brad 02:18
And welcome back. Today I'm joined by Mike Davis, the CEO of Global Witness to discuss very contentious very difficult to issue. The oftentimes gray or outright illegal trades and industries in in our case Jade and in rare earth metals that occurring Myanmar. My thank you for joining us, I'll give you a chance to introduce yourself. Tell the audience a little bit about what it is that you and your organization do.
Mike Davis 02:49
Yeah, thanks very much. Yeah. So Hi, I'm Mike Davis, I'm the CEO of globe witness Global Witness is an international NGO which campaigns to shift the balance of power from those who are profiting most from climate breakdown to those who are most adversely affected. And our work involves a mix of in depth investigations, padding, storytelling, and targeted advocacy. And we work in a range of countries around the world. Excellent.
Brad 03:16
So let's start with the older report. That that you published this. This one came out the Jade report, was it earlier this year? Or was that last year?
Mike Davis 03:27
Yeah, we've published a report on the links between the Jade industry in northern Myanmar Cochin state and the conflict and enrichment the military last year. And that followed on for a book to republished in 2015. I was more directly involved in the first one, I wrote it. And we're looking there across both cases, the way in which this vastly valuable gemstone is benefiting all the wrong people in Myanmar in terms of empowering generals, military companies, drug lords, various other types of armed groups. And none of the benefits going to the people in the Arab cerned which in turn led to a kind of dystopian moonscape where entire mountains have been sliced to pieces rivers, diverted and blocked a lot of localized pollution, hideous human rights abuses and terrible labor conditions, which result regularly in dozens of deaths sometimes into the hundreds through landslides, as well as a drug addiction epidemic.
Brad 04:37
I mean, so there is a lot there and we don't have the time to cover all of that. But I do want to linger on this a little bit because I think for a lot of people, Jade is just a stone it's it's a stone that we understand is precious with a stone that we understand many cultures have an affinity for. But I don't think there's a true understanding of the the scope On the scale of the Jade industry, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe the lawful and unlawful Jade industries in Myanmar operate in the order of billions of US dollars per year in the trade. Is that correct?
Mike Davis 05:15
Yes, that's correct. It's very hard to quantify, because there's very little transparency around this. And also Jade is a very unusual type of gemstone in as much as the value placed on it is subject to some highly subjective conditions and criteria. And this is primarily shaped by the very particular high demand that comes from China, Chinese people have a particular affinity with Jade. But yes, you're right, billions. When we did calculations that we published in 2015, we had very good data that we got through a range of sources for 2014, which appears to have been a peak year. And in 2014, it appears that the value of the production of jade so the value is that the J That was extracted, could have been up to $31 billion, it might even have been more. In subsequent years, it appears to have been a little less, but we're still talking about the many millions and 10s many billions 10s of billions even. And it's absolutely dwarfs any other type of export from me and mine, including what was previously thought of as the big one that being offshore oil and gas.
Brad 06:23
So what I mean what makes this such a huge sector, I mean, Myanmar is a sizable country suddenly, but Jade Jade occurs in many different countries around the world, like what what drives the Myanmar Jade industry?
Mike Davis 06:37
Well, primarily because Myanmar is the main source of the type of jade which is most valuable, that's called Jadite. It's another type called nephrite. You don't actually get Jade is very many countries at all. You get it some parts of Central America in smaller quantities, one or two other places but But nowhere in the same league as Myanmar, it's far and away the world's richest deposits. And moreover, it's parked right next door to the main source of demand, which is China. And on top of that, the area where the Jade occurs, which is really concentrated around Perkins township in Jin State is a lawless area because it's at the center of a long running armed conflict between the Myanmar military and the Cochin independence army or Cochin independence organization. And so that means that the companies can get away with murder quite literally, and get away with ripping off not only the local population, but the entire population, Myanmar in terms of this colossal resource heist, from which neither local people or other citizens Myanmar get much in the way of benefits at all.
Brad 07:48
So then you mentioned companies. So to two questions, number one, who actually, in practical terms, owns the Jade, as it sits in the earth. And secondly, who is actually getting the Jade and profiting from the sale of it?
Mike Davis 08:08
Well, the question of who owns it is a good one because it it according to the laws and Myanmar, it belongs to the state. Now a lot of people in Kachin State would take issue with that and say, Well, hang on. This all comes from our area. It's our natural heritage. And this adds to the list of very major issues that we have with the way that we've been treated by the central government, Myanmar, ever since independence. But if one takes for a moment, that premise that it's it belongs to the state. That means that the extraction of is done under license to companies and the licenses are typically just a few years in duration. And when we exposed in 2015, the extent of the value of the trade that perhaps more significantly, who was controlling it, the response of the incoming NLD lead government was to suspend the allocation of jade mining licenses. That meant quite a lot of companies were unable to continue their Jade mining because their short term licenses expired. But it did also mean that there was a consolidation of control by some of the most powerful companies military was also once connected with particular drug lords and an armed armed group, the United State army.
Brad 09:21
And so the people who are doing the actual physical labor getting their hands dirty. Are these are locally employed mining staff or are these people who have been shipped in by these companies for this purpose?
Mike Davis 09:37
Well, it's a mixture. The the companies that mined the Jade are typically a Myanmar entity which provides a facade for a Chinese company, which actually brings in the capital and equipment and oversees the work, but doesn't actually have a formal legal presence in Myanmar. So the way this might work typically as you have, let's say, I'm members of the family of a senior general. So former senior general Tangela himself, in fact that his family controlling Jade mining companies and we access the records which proves this, are they the ones who actually doing the work on the ground? No, they're not as they would have a Chinese hidden joint venture partner who brings the equipment and some of the people relatively short distance over the border from your nan province to do the mining. Now, on top of that, however, you have a very, very large number. Many, many, many 1000s of people who come in as migrant Jade pickers from all parts of Myanmar actually a lot come from Rakhine State. And what they are doing is they are picking over the tailings from the Jade mining operations. So they're going through the waste. They don't have legal permits to do that very hazardous work. And a lot of them get killed because the mining is carried out in such a grossly negligent manner that there are frequently enormous landslides, tidal waves of mud, which flow down these mountains and engulf these people who are desperately picking through the debris to try to find precious stone. So you've got a mix of different types of people involved with the big people then connected, the most powerful in the land. And those who are most visible on the ground and most at risk are amongst the most poor and the most desperate.
Brad 11:24
So let me just go back. And so we've heard about this, like internationally, they have been reports on these landslides. These people who are who are digging through these, you know, the scraps effectively to try and eke out a living. But I'm not, for example, knowledgeable about the mining industry. I just assumed that by simple geological nature, any mining industry of this kind, is going to be prone to landslides and geologic instability. So you're telling me that this is not even a necessary outcome of the Jade mining process. This is simply negligence on the part of the mining company.
Mike Davis 12:05
Oh, yeah, they couldn't care less about the consequences. Some in mining operations invariably have some level of environmental impacts, and often very severe ones. But this is really on a different scale. There's absolutely no controls whatsoever. There's no efforts by the companies to construct their minds, which there aren't really minds in a technical sense of just digging a very big hole in the ground, and scooping out the material with backhoe type diggers putting it on enormous trucks, and then it gets sorted out, there's not much engineering involved. And after they finish, they just leave these huge pits full of debris and then subsequently water when it rains. And there's no proper safeguards to prevent these breaking open, tipping these mudslides down the mountains, or to prevent instances which are very common where the mining has just cut through, as I was saying earlier, whole mountain sides, meaning that just huge chunks of Clash or Hill might just suddenly move and shift and come tumbling down on whoever's below this, this happens every year.
Brad 13:10
So what you're basically describing to me, it sounds like is an unreinforced dam in an elevated position in a mountainous region, with wood that accurately describe the scene. Well, that's
Mike Davis 13:23
that's what the form some of these take. And there was a particularly infamous example a few years ago where one such company which was controlled by the family of a Myanmar general who was a minister, they had essentially created one of these huge, elevated lakes of mud. And the barriers such as it was burst and hundreds of people died. But there are quite a lot of other instances, more common, in fact, where what's happening is that the mountainside is destabilized by the mining operations and it just collapses. And it collapses and then huge chunks of rock Earth cascading down it's very steep slopes and and they cover and kill the people who are further down below the Jade packers who are looking for their once in a lifetime. lucky break. Wow.
Brad 14:21
So I think the the important question from the perspective of the local community then is are they receiving benefits from this? Is the local community becoming enriched in any way by this? Are they are they receiving a dividend of some sort? Or are they completely just being put at risk and receiving nothing for the trouble?
Mike Davis 14:40
Most people in Kachin State would tell you that they get very little or nothing at all. And the way in which the Jade business is structured does disenfranchise the local population almost entirely. So it's not legal in fact, to trade Jade within Christian states, you're only allowed to trade it through certain designated markets that are Koreans in in other parts of Myanmar like the main national Emporium, which is running naked or and also a jade market Mandalay for instance. So people local people are essentially cut out it's a major source of grievance. Is it one of the top reasons why people are fighting for greater autonomy in Kachin State, probably not one of the very top ones. But yeah, I think you could safely say it would be in the top 10. You know, we're sitting on this huge natural inheritance, and we're not getting anything. And in fact, you know, our worst antagonists and abusers are the ones who are profiting. And to give you an example of this something which we showcased in our report last year, in terms of how members of the military junta are continuing to profit and finding new ways we presented evidence of how one of the sons of min Aung Hlaing is operating a source of monopoly on the provision of dynamite explosives to Jade, binding and Pac and doing that in cahoots with the northern commander and making a huge amount of money through that. That's alongside the established mechanisms in terms of military families, running their own companies or getting benefits through the formal military companies like Myanmar, economic Holdings Limited, for example. So they're getting quite creative, and all the different ways that they squeeze money out of this industry, which of course, is partly for personal benefit. But it also goes into the sort of virtual war chest which the Myanmar military had been accumulating over decades through looting the country's natural resources. And this is one of the things we were warning about in our 2015 report. Look, if you allow the situation to continue, where some of the most dangerous people, the most hardline opponents of human rights and democracy in the country are sitting on this treasure trove. This isn't just about justice, and then being greedy, this is a huge threat. Because if you want to stage a coup, shut down the country, wage war and its population is cost money. This is a very big source of money, and you need to address it. And the NLD government did start trying to do that, but hugely difficult task. And frankly, I don't think they got sufficient support from their international allies and certainly not the Chinese authorities.
Brad 17:15
And so, examining basically the same issue, but and staying within the realm of of Kitchin. Let's move on to the more recent report that you released. So, instead of Jade, we seem to be examining a very similar situation, except the mining is now in rare earth metals, specifically, terbium 65, and dysprosium 66. Which, while most people might be familiar with what JD is, when we discussed for this interview, that was literally the first time I'd ever heard of these two materials. So for the benefit of the audience, could you quickly explain what these are and why they're important?
Mike Davis 17:54
Yeah, so these two materials dysprosium and terbium are what are commonly known as rare earths or to be slightly more specific, heavy, rare as they're, they're unusual metals, which occur in trace or sometimes larger quantities, different geological formations around the world. And they have become essential essential components for a range of electronic devices, which we're all dependent on, they go into everyday electronics, but very significantly in the context of how the world's economy is shifting, and how there is the beginnings of a very necessary revamp of the way in which we think about our energy production. These two metals are actually very, very important indeed, as components of what are known as permanent magnets, which in turn are components that are used in all sorts of devices that we very much need for for clean tech for electric vehicles, and for wind farms, for instance. And the demand for them is very rapidly escalating. And what we brought out in our report is how this corner of kitchen state and northern Myanmar controlled by a military junta Alliance warlord has become now the main global source of supply for these materials. It's quite extraordinary. The industry is dominated by half a dozen major processing firms in China, and mostly in a province called Jiang shi province. And whereas previously, those companies were mining these rare earth metals in their own neighborhood, whereas previously, these companies in Jiangsu province were mining these metals in their own neighborhood, the environmental cost of that is so staggering because the process of extracting them is so extraordinarily dirty. That even you might say even the Chinese government said Okay, that's it. You have to stop doing this. The environmental costs, the costs to human health are just unacceptable. And so the response of this industry was to of course, obviously wanted to either dominant role in the global supply chain carry on supplying major Western electronics companies. They outsource this this filthy mining operation to a place where they were reserves of dysprosium, and Terbium. But moreover, where there was an entirely lawless environment where they could essentially do what they want in terms of just ripping the landscape to pieces in pursuit of these materials. And that's what they've done in this area of kitchen state.
Brad 20:28
Fair enough. So let's examine the sort of the economics at play here like do we do we have a scope of how much this is worth? Do we have an understanding, like how does this rack up compared to, for example, the JD industry?
Mike Davis 20:45
Well, we have some data sources that they're insufficient, but they're fairly illustrative when we're looking here at a clutch of Chinese companies, which have a dominant role in the global supply chain for these materials. And they are getting well they have control of about 80% of global bearers refining their main source of supply now is this one area of Chin State about size of Singapore and the amounts of this dysprosium and terbium coming out of Myanmar, we have some idea of the value, it's almost certainly an underestimate, but the figures are, are fairly, fairly eye opening. So whereas in 2014, Myanmar was exporting rare earths to China worth just around one and a half billion dollars, by 2021. This was 780 million. And it's almost all coming from this one area. And all the projections and I'm talking about global economic projections here are the there's demand for these materials is only going to escalate for you know what, what most of us would think of as a pretty good reason that we're trying to wean ourselves off fossil fuels and find our energy source through more renewable materials as well. And that's that's something we, which we absolutely support and advocate for, but it's it's obviously vital that it's done in a way which is equitable, and just an avoid some mistakes of the past that we've seen in terms of the resource curse type scramble for oil and gas, and just needs to be done differently. But the signs based on the evidence that we've uncovered in Chin State are pretty ominous. There needs to be far more scrutiny and control of these industries, if we're to avoid inflicting really appalling side effects on on people who live in the areas where these minerals can be extracted. So let's,
Brad 22:40
we'll come to those effects that you've that you've mentioned, because they are severe and horrifying. But trying to understand the economics because we we've discussed this particular issue in preparation, and I have a I have a chart of of interconnected armed organizations, pseudo political entities, you know, foreign interests, it's, it's, it seems to be very complicated. Who's Who's Who's running this show, like who's actually in control of these these metals and the extraction of these metals at the end of the day.
Mike Davis 23:19
The area is is known? Well, it's a term used by the Myanmar junta as a special region one, it's a part of Kachin state, which as I said, is sizable but not huge. It's about same size as Singapore. And it's controlled by a warlord, a man called Zakon. Ting Yang, who previously ran what you might call an ethnic armed group. Something called the NDA K new democratic army Kachin. And this group signed a ceasefire agreement with the military soon after the round of ceasefire agreements began, so we're talking over a decade ago, aligned itself with the military and then use that really as a license to plunder whatever natural resources it would get its hands on so we've previously documented them playing very substantial and harmful role in the rapacious illegal logging of Qin state. They're also somewhat involved in the Jade business largely through taxing illegal exports of Jade, they've really hit the jackpot with this one, because what they've been able to do is use their their control of this area which is which is coercive in the US nothing resembling a free society in this corner of Chin State to facilitate the entry into the area of Chinese companies which are not legally registered in Myanmar, but are allowed to come in and undertake this highly destructive mining in pursuit of these two heavy rare earth metals. This is illegal under Myanmar law for a very basic reason, which is that actually it's not lawful in Myanmar to have A foreign entity engaged in what is termed small or medium scale mining, which is what this is that there is in theory provision for exemptions to be made, but none of that sort. So it's entirely illegal. It's extremely shadowy, none of the Chinese companies operating in, in this part of puginsky data declared entities, but they are there, they're very present. They substantially run the mining operations with a high proportion of workforce being Chinese and all the skilled jobs going to Chinese workers. And they're able to do this because they're given sort of ID cards of dubious authenticity by this armed group, which controls the area. And there are many, many 1000s of them. And by one estimate, around about 16,000, Chinese people come into Myanmar to do this kind of mining, which is, which is forms of parallel of sorts with what happened 1015 years ago with the illegal logging. And so when you have 10s, of 1000s, of Chinese workers coming into the same area, and others have changed state.
Brad 26:04
I mean, is there is there a particular reason for this, one would presume that bringing in Chinese people from China, illegally going through the rigmarole of getting false documentation for them, housing them, taking care of them to whatever level they're taking care of must be very costly and difficult. Is there a reason that they're willing to put up with that?
Mike Davis 26:25
Well, we don't know how much they're paid. But we know that the industry itself is extremely lucrative, particularly for these Chinese companies and their warlord partner. So I don't know how well the Chinese workers are treated, but there's certainly money there, which which could be used to ensure that they're at least moderately well looked after. In our research, we've been more preoccupied with the impact of this on on local people who who aren't involved, but are very adversely affected by the poisoning of the waterways, and local natural landscapes and which has resulted in the the dissipation of wildlife, the decline in fish stocks, people who have to use the water, finding that this has adverse impacts on their health, either through drinking it or through just having the contact with their skin. And it's also had a severe impact on the local economy and other ways, because whereas previously, quite a lot of people living in this area would make the living through horticulture, through orchards and then exporting different types of fruits, nuts and other produce to China. The rather grim irony is that because of China outsourcing the filthy industry into into their locale, Chinese buyers will no longer buy the products because they believe they're contaminated by this heavy rare earth mining.
Brad 27:44
But what I mean is more, why would the Chinese bother sending Chinese people in instead of hiring locals, which would in theory, despite all of the things that you've just listed, at least put a little bit of money into the pockets of the local community?
Mike Davis 27:57
Well, because it's quicker and easy to bring in Chinese workers who already know the technical sides of the work. And Chinese companies have no interest in benefiting local populations are certainly not going to invest in training and scaling them up.
Brad 28:10
Okay, so so we would say that, would it be accurate to say that the Chinese people who are being brought in for this work, and what local labor is being retained, are not doing the same kind of work and are not taking on the same level of risk?
Mike Davis 28:26
Now, from what we can tell, and what information our researchers gathered in the area, which they had to do very carefully and using cover stories, it's extremely dangerous work. So there's quite a lot of things we don't know. But from what we can tell, Chinese workers typically make up nearly half the staff and an average mine. They do the more skills work. Kitchen, Burmese workers do the more basic forms of labor which brings them more into direct contact with the toxic materials which are used to extract their errors and then the affluent when it comes out from which they tried to separate out the Dysprosium. The terbium, so yes, the locals are doing a more dangerous work. And, yeah, the there's a very clear division of labor, and division of levels of risk that people involved have to bear.
Brad 29:16
So let's let's examine that because I saw I reached out to a contact up in kitchen after we had our discussion last time. And the stories that I was hearing, were just just this acceptance that in the village near where this is happening. The men just acknowledge that after working on the sights, for a period of time, they are impotent for the rest of their lives, or they have you know, elevated levels of or elevated chances of developing cancers and illnesses like this. And it's just the only way that they can make a reasonable sum of money in a reasonable period of time and, and lifelong chronic conditions just seem to be a cost that they have to pay for survival. So can you go into a bit more detail about why this industry in particular is so toxic, and it's so dangerous to the people living there and to the broader environment. Yeah, I
Mike Davis 30:13
should start my answer again by saying that there's an awful lot about this that we don't know. There are a lot of indications that the impacts is very, very harmful. But it's really been running at full tilt for about five years. And, and sadly, I suspect the worst consequences of it will be seen over decades to come. We do know quite a lot more about the way in which it's viewed in China, which was previously the hub not just for the not just for the refining, but also for the mining itself. And there when when Chinese officials more or less put a stop to the mining in Jiangsu Province, they, they estimated that the environmental damage which had already been inflicted would take up to 100 years to rectify, it would cost around 5.6 billion US dollars to clean up. And in terms of the human impact. What's been reported from the areas around the errors mines in China, is that because of the leak, the leaching of this toxic mix of the chemicals pumped into the mineshaft to draw the arrows out and the arrows themselves. The impacts include conditions like osteoporosis, respiratory diseases, gastrointestinal complaints, skin and eye problems. So a pretty hideous catalogue of, of health impacts and, and that may just be the tip of the iceberg because even in China, this industry is not so very old. And it does sound very much the slow we're looking at impacts which take the form of long term contamination, not just of landscapes, a bit of the human body as well. So it may take some time before the worst of this manifests itself. So what what would it take
Brad 31:56
at this point like this industry has clearly been going on for for some time? What would it take at this point to try and reverse these these effects and to clean up that area?
Mike Davis 32:11
It's very difficult to be specific about that, because we don't have the data. But I think you just have to stop the industry in its current form entirely. Before looking at whether there would be any safe way to run it in a different form, which under current conditions seems pretty unlikely. And we think there are some things which buyers and governments internationally lead to be doing because this is an area of the world where it's very hard to directly influence conditions on the ground. But these two rare earth metals are feeding this escalating global demand, they go into supply chains for products which we use and many of us because we want to see an energy transition aspire to use more. And that gives us responsibility and also opportunities to exert some influence. This really starts with governments, we believe that governments internationally should be preventing companies from importing products materials, which contain these rare earths unless the suppliers can demonstrate that they have not come from mines in this area of northern Myanmar, which are causing these very grave environmental and human rights impacts. And we also think that governments internationally should be expanding the targeted sanctions regime, which is already being used to go after members of the Myanmar junta to go after the main protagonists, and particularly this, this warlord and his cronies in Chin State who are benefiting from it. And there's also a significant role for companies as well, they're there, they're fueling the demand, they're making a lot of money through these products. They need to get control of their supply chain through what's known as due diligence, which means thorough checks all the way through so that they know where the dysprosium and the terbium goes into the permanent magnets which goes into the electric vehicle they make whatever it is that they know where they think those things come from, and in what circumstances with what impact now companies typically when you start a debate around this, whether it's about blood diamonds, conflict, minerals, or timber, or throw up their hands and say, I was absolutely impossible, we can't do it, you know, what is enough money in it, and they're forced to do it, they do it, they find a way. And that's the challenge we're confronting now. I mean, we can't rely on companies goodwill, it's not so any of them would wish these impacts on people in state. But their job is to generate profit for their shareholders. So we need regulation to compel them to take this impact seriously and address them through their purchasing practice. It's the only way by so
Brad 34:46
I agree with you that we can't agree on the we can't rely on the goodwill of companies. History has made that very clear. But with governments, it is a little bit difficult when we when we look at you know the the in the United States Ah, the famous river I think was the Chicago River that caught on fire. And that led to, you know, major environmental reforms. That was something that the American people themselves could see with their own two eyes. It was the river burning. Clearly, this is something that they're going to be very agitated about. But we're talking about lives being lost in a particularly remote region of a country that most people can't point to on a map and simultaneously, from what you're saying, it sounds like, it's not going to be easy to find alternative sources of dysprosium, and Terbium. And even if we can find sources, that technology doesn't seem to presently exist, that will allow us to obtain these materials safely. So is it not more likely that international, even you know, Western governments that will claim to care about human rights, they'll claim to care about, you know, the outcome and the health of the workers are simply going to say, politically, I can't be seen as standing in the way of green energy transitions. And therefore, I'm just going to have to throw these people under the bus so that we can secure the supply of these materials that we use for electric vehicles that we use for solar panels and wind farms and all these other things that we've promised our voters, we are going to deliver for them, is there any way that we can shift those governments?
Mike Davis 36:15
Well, you highlight the obvious risk here. That's the challenge. And that's why we're reporting on this. Because we want to draw attention to the impact of this very necessary and positive energy transition, which we absolutely support. And we believe that that transition needs to be accelerated. And it can be done so in a way, which is just an equitable, but that's not going to happen if there's no transparency around where some of these materials come from, and therefore no demand generated for the extraction and trades to be carried out in a more just and equitable and environmentally friendly way. So yeah, it's not going to be an easy debate. But there are plenty of precedents around which demonstrate that you can actually get major economies to put in place controls, which mean that supply chains need to be properly checked over. And due diligence done, we've seen that on diamonds, conflict, minerals, timber, the EU is currently working on a draft law, which would require companies across all sectors to do what's known as mandatory human rights and environmental due diligence on their supply chain. So in terms of precedents for how this can be done in a legal sense, there are plenty of them around the barriers, as you say, a largely political ones. And it is a complex debate, because we do need to see a transition, in which we're using more electric vehicles instead of internal combustion engines, or wind farms in terms of fossil fuels. So it's a debate which needs to be framed and work through carefully. But apart from the injustice of people locally having to put up with these impacts, which I should mention, also include fairly grim human rights abuses, being forced off their land threatened with violence. Unless we address those, then we actually sort of set things up in a way which gives the green transition, a kind of taint about it and a sense of, of inequity at a global scale in terms of more prosperous northern economies, finally, making the necessary evolution away from fossil fuels. But along the way, being, you know, unconcerned about dumping all these very unpleasant externalities, consequences in terms of conflict, human rights abuses, environmental degradation on people who live in the parts of the world, which are expected to produce the raw materials. So we're not saying you need to stop that, or we don't want to see an energy transition. We absolutely do. But it's in everybody's interest that it's done, right. And that does mean shining a light on the three corners of the planet, where it's being carried out in a really abusive way. So that drives demand to change.
Brad 38:45
I think it's very sort of comprehensive overview of that situation.
Mike Davis 38:48
Well, we would encourage people to, to look at the reports and the visual demonstration of our findings on our website. We think you'll find it quite striking. In terms of things which you as you're listening to this can do. I think one very basic one, which goes way beyond this issue is, is keep paying attention to what's happening in Myanmar keep up solidarity and support. Because it's hugely important. It feels like what's happened in Myanmar has kind of been for many audiences globally displaced and overtaken by other global calamities, but we need to keep up the attention, but also, to engage on this issue. Now, there are a couple of channels for doing that. The one which actually is probably most effective in the short term is to use political channels, right to your member of your legislature say, you know, I support the green transition, but we really need to make sure that we've got controls in place in terms of the materials we're importing in our country to make sure they're not driving these kinds of abuses. Now, that might sound like a heavy lift. As I said, there are precedents around for getting the right sort of legislation in place some of its being developed. Eu right now. The other thing is to is to take the issue up with the companies whose products you buy, that might seem like a longer, more indirect pathway. But that's valuable too, because I've no doubt that many companies which produce products which are important for the green transition, do so with a with a high level of confidence that they tributing to good outcomes. One could argue that they should have checked previously on their supply chains and potential impact, and it doesn't reflect well on them that they haven't, we need to motivate them to do that and get the message across the consumers wants to support the renewable transition wants to buy greener products and but they also want to see the companies that supply them, controlling their production supply chains in a way which, which is in line with the high ethical standards which they purport to purport to abide by. So that that would be the other main way of picking this up.
Host 41:08
Many of you know that in addition to running the Insight Myanmar podcast platform, we also formed a nonprofit that better Burma to respond to the terror the Burmese military has been inflicting on the country and its people. We encourage listeners to check out our blog, see the work that better Burma has been carrying out, along with the upcoming projects that we're hoping to support. Right now, as I'm sure you all know, and today's interview only reinforced, the ongoing need is overwhelming. A donation of any amount goes directly towards those vulnerable communities who need it most. And it will be so greatly appreciated. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go to support a wide range of humanitarian missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities and military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and much more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution for a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian aid work is carried out by a nonprofit mission that are Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org That's b e t t e r b urma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either the Insight Myanmar better Burma websites for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.