Transcript: Episode #175: Jonathan Crowley, Part 1
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Host 00:16
Hi there, and thanks for listening. If you're enjoying our podcast and have a recommendation about someone you think that we should have on to share their voice and journey with the world, by all means, let us know. It could be an aid worker, monastic author, journalist, Doctor resistance leader, really anyone with some Thai or another to the ongoing situation in Myanmar to offer up a name go to our website insight myanmar.org And let us know but for now just sit back and take a listen to today's podcast.
01:17
it to you in a way that I absolutely hate it
Host 01:55
really happy on this episode of insight Myanmar podcast to start the first interview of what we think will be several to follow with Jonathan Crowley, a friend on the path that I've known for many years. And it's great to finally get a chance to sit here and have a a an intimate conversation together, which will also be public and that we will explore and see where it goes. So Jonathan, thanks so much for taking the time to join us and talk about yourself and your path in practice.
Jonathan Crowley 02:25
Yeah, super. You're super welcome. Host. It's great to connect with you and to, in some ways continue conversations we we started many years ago in Myanmar. So I really I really appreciate the opportunity and the invitation. Thank you.
Host 02:40
Yeah, and you really hit on something that was one of the impetus long before the coup before the pandemic of one and start the podcast is having what I felt like were a series of really special rarified conversations with all kinds of people and wanting to find a way to bring those conversations out from where they were happening to a wider community, which is what we're doing now. So before we get into into your your practice, and and your meditation and your path, as we always do, and learning a bit about who the people are, before they started practicing, if you could share a bit about your life growing up and your family and the influences and conditions that led you to start meditating and take take your time and telling however that lays out and progresses.
Jonathan Crowley 03:25
Sure. Great question. So I grew up in New York City. And I was I was well I was born in 1964. And was born and raised in New York. Both of my parents were professionals. And I have two brothers. And yeah, I think in some ways, meditation, some seeds around meditation were planted fairly early on, actually, really, in some ways by my father. He was a kind of early psychiatrist in with the early psychiatric movement in the United States, in the 20s and 30s, the 1920s and 30s. And by by the time I was born, he was actually looking at a lot of East West influences that were beginning to impact the you know, psychoanalysis at that time, and then included Krishna Bertie, who he would go see live. And then he was reading a lot of Alan Watts. And I remember he gave me an early edition of Kehilla bronze book and those planted a lot of seeds for me. But one thing he also did was he tried transdermal, you know, or TM meditation. At one point, and I just, you know, I remember as probably an 11 or 12 year old seeing him I'm sitting in a chair with his eyes closed and wondering what's going on. So that, you know, these are Yeah, these were significant seats for me. And then, you know, by the time I was in high school, I was definitely kind of, you know, sort of being drawn to more, really, in some ways, just philosophy, some mystical stuff, you know, and exploring and, and then I read, I think it was, well, I read a lot of Alan Watts, his books, and then I also read, beginner's mind. And that, that, yeah, that sort of, I think, I began to really seek teachings and that sort of thing. What then happened was, I was taking a one year therapeutic massage training, you know, program, I had moved to Amherst, Massachusetts, and you know, a number of, of teachers and some students were meditating at the Insight Meditation Society center in barre, Massachusetts. And I got a list from of meditation centers from the person who made my massage table going, sn Goenka center was listed there, as well. So I was also seeing in Amherst. In those days, the center would post, you know, posters about their upcoming 10 day courses. And so all these things began to add up. And on my, I think on my 20th birthday. I went to a just like a long weekend, like a four day introductory meditation with let's see, Larry, hold on a second. He's one of the founders of IMS, I'm forgetting it. Anyway, it'll come. So yeah, so that was my first real taste of doing a retreat. And shortly after that, I, you know, I was mentioning that I had done that was a big deal for me at the age of 22, to be silent for four days, pitching it to someone at a shop. And the person said, Well, if you thought that was interesting, you should try the 10 day course up in Shelburne. So that planted a seed. And then about a year later, I went for my first 10 day course. And that was in 1987.
Host 07:39
Right, so that was Damodara. And Shelburne falls.
Jonathan Crowley 07:42
That's right. And it was a very, you know, they it was founded in 1981. And so it was still quite new, and quite small at the time, they were doing courses, I think, for really only about, I think, still 20, maybe between 25 and 40 students. And, you know, the combination was still very simple. And the whole operation was really quite small. So,
Host 08:07
right, so yeah, you were there in somewhat the early days, just suddenly, some years after the the technique and the teachings and appointed teachers started coming from India and Burma to be able to lead them in the West. And that was definitely one of the first established centers that was in North America. So you of course, you don't know any of this coming in, you're just a young kid, just having probably very little idea, even among the difference of the traditions and techniques and such. But you go and take this intensive retreat. So what was the experience as far as you can remember back to, to that first 10 day course what it was, like being in it and then coming out?
Jonathan Crowley 08:42
Yeah, it was, it was really hard. I, I think by that, by the time I was going into it, I really was drawn to even, you know, thinking about a monastic way of life, was reading different books about that, and was, you know, so I, in some ways, it was a test, it was sort of testing the waters. But, you know, by the fifth day, I, you know, was had broken down, I was crying, I didn't know what was going on, the task of being present every moment just seemed pletely overwhelming. And, and I think it was even coming up. I wasn't really raised in a Christian household, but my schooling was very Christian. And I began to notice that I was, I think, coming up against some of my own Christian conditioning around this notion of that some external entity, you know, was going to somehow provide my salvation or something, and then, you know, to be kind of challenged with being aware every moment, you know, I thought what you know, as as a means of salvation. I was like, I can't do that. So I was really quite, I think, you know, I was resisting it a lot all the way through, and then on the 10th Day, you know, which is a day for breaking silence and practicing loving kindness. You know, I learned that it was actually a buffer day and that we'd have to stay another 24 hours before we actually could leave, and I was so ready to leave. So I, I actually attempted to, you know, leave that day and it didn't work out, there was no, you know, there was no reason to. And so, you know, at the end of the whole thing, I said, Well, I got this out of my system. And, yeah, I had no idea that, you know, another year and a half later, I be back for my second retreat. And then, you know, shortly thereafter, living at the center as a, what they call us, it's, you know, what they call a sit server program, which is when you alternate between sitting 20 courses as a student, and then serving them as a volunteer.
Host 10:58
Right, that's, that's interesting. It's interesting how much that also parallels my first experience of taking my first course in Kyoto, Japan in 2001. Also, just having just excruciating pain of all sorts of mental, emotional, physical, every aspect and feeling like this was the greatest experience I've ever had. And I don't know if I could ever do it again, that was really my feeling of it. I ended up going back just only about four months later, just for like three or four days of a 10 day course when I had available. And that that was also quite hard to make me realize in my own development and path that I was, I was a young kid living in Tokyo and had pretty wild life going out, staying up all night, most weekends going out to clubs and such and was just realizing that if I can't have my feet in both boats, I, if I want to be serious about the spiritual path, I really need to give up the drinking and carousing and other things. And so I waited in my own for my own path, I waited until I was able to come to a closure of what of what my life was like at that time. And then as soon as I had that closure, then which was about a year, year and a half later, I went back to, to Kyoto to do the same thing to basically live at that center, and sit in Serbia for an extended period, which eventually brought me to Burma as as my own story goes, but so on, on your path, your you go back a year and a half later, you go to this, you go to a second 10 day course. And then eventually you, you also come to sit and serve at the center as a relatively new student, just having taken a couple of courses similar to what I was doing as well there. So as you started to get deeper into the practice into the organization, having friends that were also meditators and teachers and having that, and especially once you start living at the center that really just tremendously impacts your life. Talk a bit about that transformation and learning and what you're going through there.
Jonathan Crowley 12:59
Yeah, and yeah, it's needed. Our pas are parallel very much jaw. Yeah. So I think by the time I saw after, shortly after my first Hindi course, I, you know, I was 21. So I was still, you know, in my college years. And I was also trying to figure out those college years, I was a very non traditional student would take a lot of, you know, years off, just to do programs that were edifying for me on a kind of a personal sort of development basis, and then try to figure out how to get college credit for. So I think so I went, I went back to a program where I traveled internationally through Central and South and the Latin Caribbean. And when I came back, I, you know, I was really kind of exhausted, and it was an intense trip. And it was first time, you know, visiting developing countries. And so I, to my surprise, I wanted to do a second 10 day course. And, and by that time, I had one friend who had, in the meantime said, attend the course so I didn't know anyone when I first started my course I think that was kind of a piece of it, that there was no one I could talk to you about that experience and it was a very profound experience. You know, in many ways have to, you know, for for, for six months after my first 10 day course, I would say I was acutely processing it, you know, and the impact of it, you know, you know, on an emotional level, and it was, in some ways it was not a I gave myself the time and space to do that. But I looking back I know after the those those first six months of my first 10 day course were really, really trying to digest the experience and in some ways it was I think somewhat destabilizing, you know, there, there are aspects in which. And I was actually nervous to meditate. Again after, right after the 10 day course, it took me a while to, I think, you know, by, you know, like many students, I think by the end of the two day course, you know, you, you're able to sit an hour relatively, you know, Eddie at ease, and I was actually afraid to, and I, it took me a while to, and kind of coaxing myself really to begin to sit, have a have a daily practice that was significant, as I was digesting a lot of the, you know, and it was really, in some ways, I think I was experiencing a lot of, you know, it was so deep and so profound. And the, the kind of the, in some ways the, the retreats, pointers around renunciation and the ideal of the of the monastic life and certainly the meditators life. It made me question everything, it made me question everything to, you know, to, you know, like, I remember at one point asking myself, well, gosh, you know, should I just put on a backpack and walk down the highways, you know, like, what's my life about? Like, it really caused me to question almost every single pathway that had been laid out in my life, including, you know, going back to college, and just like, I was really asking, what is important, you know, what is what is? What is my purpose? What is what is, you know, and I think I was a huge questions about the path in general, or how to integrate the path, but it was so early on, and this initial experience was so intense that I didn't, I don't think I realized what was going on. And let's, so that's why it was such a surprise that about a year and a half later, after this college program I was on, I, I felt ready to do that, again, knowing full well, what, you know, what it was going to be like, and I think having a friend, you know, knowing a friend, you know, had done it as well, was really important for me. And, and, yeah, so I went to my second 10 day retreat, and I think, you know, again, I, as I said, I was resisting a lot on my first day or so on my second time, because I knew, you might say, I knew the drill, you know, like, I, I knew what I was getting myself into. And so I was, in some ways more attentive and less resistant, and really taking it in and able to take it in. And I think I really learned more and understood what, you know, Kwanko was quite good. He was was teaching and, you know, was beginning to say, oh, okay, that's what, you know, that's what this is. And it was, it was a wonderful second 10 day course. And I, again, had a very profound experience of metta at the end of that 10 day course, I sometimes laugh about it, but I think, you know, glenkinchie sometimes talks about a wellspring of, of meta, you know, Canucks are contacting a wellspring of meta, and I think that's when, for me, because I was just sort of, you know, I didn't know from the outside, I think it would have looked like allow, you know, just, I was just, you know, I don't know, just in this space of really applying loving kindness, you know, in all my interactions. And at the time, I was working at a flower farm, we were growing flowers and making bouquets and selling them at farmer's markets. And I remember, at the end of making bouquets, there'd be all these leftover little teeny scraps of flowers, I would put them together in these little teeny bouquets, and I would go, just giving them to absolute stranger. And it was this zone, I was kind of in the chorus, but this time, it was completely different. I felt, wow, this is amazing. You know, and it almost felt like I had a secret superpower, literally, just the meta alone felt like oh, my God, I can do this anywhere, I can be mindful anywhere. And no one even as I don't have to talk about it, no one has to know that I'm with my breath and with my sensations and sending that, you know, and and that was really, really quite an amazing revelation for me. And so, and then what happened was I, this friend of mine said to me, Hey, why don't we go to the center and like, you know, surf for a couple hours. And I said, What's that? And so we went up there. And, you know, there were it was between courses, there were a number of other volunteer servers. You know, around the kitchen and, and you know, it was the they were just getting ready for the next 10 day retreat. And then I remember seeing someone mowing the lawn, and that person stopped and came up. And it turned out that he was my first teacher clapping and couldn't believe that, you know, this person who I kind of, you know, had seen from a distance course I had interactions with him on the, you know, on the 10 day course. But in some ways, I was idealizing because he was on the teacher seat, just mowing the lawn, you know, and, and also, the center itself, right, what had, you know, I was, in some ways digesting the fact that the center itself was this just regular place. And so I was just trying to, you know, juxtapose that with this intense, life changing experiences I just had, so it was great to go out there. And then that's when I learned about the sit surf. Continuous program that was happening. And I think they were just starting it actually that, you know, there had been a there have been some people who had done it informally, but they weren't going to sort of make it official and official program. And I think I was one of two of the first applicants for the Switzer program at Damodara.
Host 21:25
Wow, that's amazing. And also just brings up so many memories in in my own path as well. I remember after my first course, and for several courses, it also was such a, it had turned everything on its head that I thought I knew about who I was and what I wanted to be and exposing certain defilements and, and, and liberation from those. And I remember, and I just I didn't know how to integrate it, I was so confused how to how to put this into who I was and integrate it. And I think that's going to be a lot of this conversation going forward is how as Westerners, we integrate, not just a spiritual practice that has its roots in the east, but also through the mediums specifically of the Glink organization and the culture and teachings that they instill. But for me at that early age, I just remember thinking like, my and I was about, I was probably a year older than you, maybe 20 to 23 when I started doing it, and I remember thinking, like, you know, I've up to this point, I've been so goal oriented, and what I want to achieve, and that drive for achievement has been masking these things inside myself, I can't bear to look at and don't think I can ever change. This shows me a way to change them. But what does that mean for the things I still want to achieve? And what it meant for me at that age was I can work at a gas station the rest of my life, and just be happy and peaceful. And I remember having like serious conversations with my family and my parents about how like, I don't need anything anymore. Like, I can just get a job at the local gas station and just just be peaceful and mindful and live a good fulfilling life. And they were just incredibly alarmed at like, What am I, you know, what am I doing? Like, this is not a great life goal for recently, you know, recent college graduates and whatnot and, and that that took a lot of my own journey to start to realize how to how to, to not so much block off entire ambitions and aspirations of myself and of my being but hadn't had a more cultivate. Very carefully certain. This this cocktail of thing we have the cocktail of ambitions and, and intentions we have in us, which is obviously an ongoing process, but I'm
Jonathan Crowley 23:38
chuckling I'm chuckling Joe, because so many similar things. They're around, you know, yeah, just, you know, the ambition, achievement, that what you're conditioned. And if your mind, I think I'll turn back a little bit just to say what was happening to me before my first 10 day course. Because I so for, you know, for my elementary in high schooling, I was, I was educated in independent school in New York, and it was very high pressure. And it was sort of a conveyor belt school to, you know, Ivy League schools. And when I came out of that, I was really disillusioned. And probably because I didn't feel like I knew myself. So this is, you know, at the age of 18. And, and I said, you know, I kind of took a vow from Assam, so I'll never allow that kind of, you know, I'll never put myself through that kind of educational experience. And, and, and I was very, but you know, my, you know, my father was a psychiatrist in New York. My mother was also a professional. She was a literary agent. I was in a school with the upper crust of even though my family didn't, was not at that level. I was in a school with upper crest folks from you know, kids from New York and it was, you know, those expectations shins were kind of raining down on me in a similar way, I think that that as you're describing, and I was, I had already begun a process of, in some ways actively challenging them and or looking for alternatives. So I think what's significant to mention is just that prior to sitting my first 10 day course, I underwent about a couple years of sort of intensive body centered therapy. And again, I was addressing issues kind of coming out of my family of origin, there were some alcoholism issues in my family that I was addressing. And, you know, I was really, really drawn to Holistic Health, that was a huge, you know, I was in this therapeutic massage program intensive for a year. And, you know, it had, it was looking at, you know, the whole self, you know, how to how to, you know, just aspects of the whole self and healing. And so that was the pretext for going into my first 10 day course, I'm the son of a psychiatrist, I had undergone a very intensive period of, you know, you know, psychotherapy via a, you know, a body centered method. And I was enrolled in, you know, this very in depth, holistic healing program. So, you know, that, that, that theme of integration that you mentioned, was, in some ways important to me from the get go. And I think our company, you know, as we as we continue the conversation, you know, it'd be interesting to just go more in depth about how that took prominence for me. Yeah.
Host 26:50
Yeah, absolutely. That's, that's where there's definitely a, the the pre first chorus, I think, is definitely where there's some divergence between us because I was just partying on all times of the night and Tokyo for the couple years before I took my first course. And so I didn't have I have, I remember at the time talking to other people that were my age that had started to do yoga or, or follow certain kinds of dietary things, or live in nature or something. And so their first course was, was very difficult, but also kind of in like, kind of the next step in line, even though it was a very big step from what they'd already done. For me, it was, I was interested in, I was very interested in spirituality and the subconscious and psychedelics at that time, and just what and Carl Jung and cost Castaneda all of these different influences that were that were coming at me, but I didn't have an understanding. I mean, the thing that was really a shock to my system, and my friends at the time, who ended up bringing in to do it was this idea that ethical living and what are ethics even, because at that time, that just all seem subjective, but that ethical living, actually had some bearing on the spiritual experience that was just those were two things that had never crossed my mind. So wasn't that I was I was living, I wouldn't say that I was living a hedonistic life at the time, even though I was I was engaged in all that, because the intention was not fun wasn't just to be young and have a crazy time, the intention with everything I was doing then was wanting to learn more about myself and go deeper into myself and understand what the world was and how to have a fulfilling life. But I just didn't understand that ethical component, and that that was the thing that that Bucha that Theravada, meditation, Theravada Buddhism, the passionate meditation, the Glinka discourse, whatever you want to call it, that that whole experience, turn the light on of what of where we're following ethics, is integrated and plays into the greater spiritual path. And that that was something that, that sent me out on that. But it sounds like for you that that this kind of holistic, natural way of living was something that that you were already working towards, in many ways. And so and being aware of the body and healing and those kinds of things, and this was, this was just another layer on top of or another step, a very important and extremely significant step, but going towards the direction that you'd already been interested in prior to that time.
Jonathan Crowley 29:17
Yeah, I would say that's correct. I think I was beginning those beginning to take those steps on different levels. I remember I was, you know, just prior to my first Hindi course, I was living in households that, you know, we had sort of, you know, yeah, no alcohol, no drug policy, we were vegetarian. We, you know, I had just come out of a year long environmental program as well, where there was an emphasis on that kind of living. And so, yeah, so to see. And then, of course, just, you know, just coming out of just my family of origin, I knew the harms of you know, so I was definitely on a healing path on those fronts. You know, I had done some allanon work, and you know, saw the harm, right? So the harm and knew that, in some ways, that's one of the reasons why I didn't want to go to traditional university or college was because I didn't want to live, you know, in dorms and that culture that I knew was a big part of it. So I was already Yeah, it was already taking, you know, a couple years off, by the time I went on my first 10 day course. And in some ways I Yeah, characterize myself as far as you know, beginning to slip through the cracks, right? You know, that I remember, you know, I remember reading about, you know, from say, you know, ROM das and Timothy Leary, you know, just the, you know, kind of slipping through the cracks of conventional or traditional, or, you know, society's expectations on that level. And was, yeah, and it was actually even, you know, on a renunciant level at bracing, some of that I was, I remember reading a book called, you know, chop water carry wood. And it was kind of discussing, you know, some ways a very simple monastic, but lay lifestyle, you know, around and I was living in a cabin without electricity, and running water, and it was just biking to work. So I was definitely taking those steps. And this was then kind of, yeah, another further furthering of that, and it was also intensive for me, it was still, you know, it was still really super hard. And, and I think that's why the questioning afterwards was like, okay, so what is this mean, you know, where am I going? What, you know, I thought I was on this kind of general, you know, I would say, I would probably typify myself as being in the new age, you know, new ager type, you know, or budding new age, or you might say, and I was like, okay, you know, that cut through even all of that, right, it just cut through the, I don't know, the, I mean, you know, that's, it's a very valid world, of course, but you know, it cut through some of the superficial aspects of that a cut through, you know, just Yeah, I just went to the route of like, oh, my gosh, what is, you know, what is? What is, what is purpose what was, so my life so. So yeah, so it was then kind of a surprise to come back. And then another three months later, I was living at the center. And
Host 32:19
I think you hit on a really interesting thing, because that are really going to have a passionate experience, what it what it does, to many people, certainly, to me, and it sounds like to you as well, is you go in thinking, I'm this kind of person, I believe in this kind of thing, I have this kind of value. And it just strips away those labels. And, and just lays bare. And I think that also becomes some of the conundrum and going through with going through meditation as we'll get to later. That it it, at least for me, it started to feel label is starting to feel like there is no label here, it's removed all context and labeling. And this is just what is and that and actually there, there are labels going on there at a deeper level that takes a bit more experience to be able to uncover and find. But the initial experience, the shock of that really just strips bear away what one thinks one is and in that silence, and then that technique, but staying with where the story where you are now. So you, you know, it sounds like these first two courses were kind of like your, your all these other things in the world. And then you're going and taking a course and going back to the world. But then when you go and sit in serve living at the center, for that period, at least and maybe thereafter, you're you're becoming something new, you're not just touching and experiencing and bringing it back to your life, but you're actually now becoming something a part of, of this organization and technique, and it's becoming a part of you. I don't know if that's fair to say, I'll turn it over to you and share just what this transformation was like, as you started to go deeper with this extended experience actually living in Senator.
Jonathan Crowley 33:57
Yeah, and I, you know, I was definitely, you know, again, I was searching searching for Pathways I was, you know, almost every when I would finish some kind of educational program, whether it was accredited or not, I would sort of, you know, think about, okay, what's the next step where were you know, and I really was not following a traditional four year college thing, and I didn't even really know how I was going to accredit some of the programs I was doing. But I was following just my own heart and my, just my sense of idealism about what I sort of needed next and and so when this opportunity came up, I remember you know, it was it was juxtaposed with another choice. I was going to do I think, sort of an intensive theater training. And that was I was choosing Okay, well, I do I do so I sit server so I go and and I, you know, I chose to go to the center and, and and live there for eight or nine months. And, and yeah, I knew coming into it that, oh, this is going to be something to be to be doing this, you know, back to back, you know, retreats, and I didn't you know, but I looked at also as a kind of another program that I had enrolled in, you know, and that was part of this, I, you know, this path, sort of, you know, what I was gonna be, you know, doing around, you know, that was gonna inform sort of my higher education. And in many ways, it was a higher education, and just in a very profound way. So yeah, so I landed at the center. And it was kind of hilarious, because I was so nervous. You know, and not knowing what was really expected of me. And it was hilarious. There was a sit server there. When I, the afternoon or evening, I landed, and they said, Hey, why don't you want to go to a movie? And they took me out to a movie, I was like, Oh, thank God, you know? Okay, it's normal, you know? So, yeah, so, but yeah, I began a journey of, in those days to sit serving program was, you know, you would sit at a 10 day course, and then you would serve one or two, and then you would send another 10 day course, you know, serve one or two, and then set another attendee course. So I was pretty much going back to back retreats, right on through, you know, between, I don't know, September of that year through May. And it was, you know, the center was growing, there was construction going on. So it was looking even different from the previous times, I've been there. And I yeah, I entered this world of really seeing kind of behind, behind the scenes, you know, behind the curtain of, of the center. And yeah, in some ways, beginning to identify myself around being a server, you know, at, I began to both manage courses in the kitchen, as well as do course management, those are, those are positions where you are, you know, taking more responsibilities on in terms of, you know, the retreat, the logistics of the retreat. And so you're in some ways, you, you know, you're representing you begin a process of representing the, the tradition or the, you know, to to new folks who are newer, who are who are there. So, you know, typically there might be, I think, at that time, there might be like eight servers, some of them may have just done one course or so but and then I was also meeting very experienced meditators in the tradition, and getting to know that world of, you know, the trustees who made the center, operate, and 80s, who, you know, it was that was still a fairly new program at that time. There were ATS in place, and they were and they were also ATS who were, I think they had kind of started beginning to create Senior Assistant teachers. And I think at the time, there was another one called, like, it wasn't the full teacher, but it was there was another term for it at the time. So, you know, I was getting to know that world and that that that period of time certainly had a very deeply conditioning you know, and experience on me.
Host 38:46
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42:09
good day or whatever Iran UNGA we're gonna do we're gonna we're gonna visit here and basically yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda