Transcript: Episode #176: Jonathan Crowley, Part 2
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Host 00:17
nila, for any Burmese language speakers tuning in today, we wanted to let you know that our better Burma mission has launched three Burmese language podcasts, Myanmar revolutionary tills, dark era of Burma, and Myanmar Peace, women and security. These programs can be found on our website as well as on any of your preferred podcast platforms. We invite you to take a listen but for now let's get on with this episode
00:59
you have
01:07
an issue in my way that are they are they a good day?
Host 01:44
So I'm back here with Jonathan Crowley, we had a brief introductory talk about his beginning meditation practice and the the passionate tradition of Sn Goenka. And we're just gonna get a be a bit deeper into what that experience was like in those years and pick up from where we left off last time. So Jonathan, you ready to start again? Here?
Jonathan Crowley 02:05
Yeah. Thanks so much, John. Good to be good to be here.
Host 02:09
Yeah, all right. So when we left off, before you were, you had to bring listeners back in who had listened before, perhaps those who are starting with this one, although we suggest to check out that one. First, you had described how your emerging meditation practice had began. And the difficulty is it is for so many of us. And then coming into wanting to dedicate yourself more and more have it become a bigger and bigger part of your life. And eventually, that led to sitting and serving being one of the first center servers in Damodar, and Massachusetts, to basically live at the center and be participating in most courses that were happening and really try to get, as they say, established in the technique and established in the tradition that was kind of where we left off. So why don't we pick back up there and your journey and go in terms of what you were doing what you were feeling how you were developing how you were changing? Anything you want to talk about those years?
Jonathan Crowley 03:04
Yeah, it was an extraordinary time, a really precious time for me, and I landed at the center and began basically alternating retreats, I would set a retreat and then volunteer, basically, either in the kitchen, or sometimes this course manager. And did that for I think about eight to nine months consecutively. And it was, you know, is a very intense time. And that center was in a in a pretty early, it's still in some of its early stages of development in terms of expanding its residences. And so they're, you know, and then as you know, the I was also there by myself, or actually, I think there was there was actually one other server who was there with me during the winter months, because all of the trustees and ATS who were operating the center would leave for approximately two months and go to India to attend longer retreat centers, you know, courses there. So, so there were, you know, months where, you know, they were just visiting 80s Who would come to the center from either Canada or other places and, and teach, you know, conduct the courses. And I was just there kind of holding the fort with this other server. And yeah, it was a fascinating time and there were and then there was this, you know, there was a sense of, you know, of, you know, with each retreat, sort of going deeper into practice understanding the practice at a deeper level. And then this sense of the service being a kind have a way to integrate that practice in in the context of being a volunteer, which is more, it's a more extroverted position, you know, you're cooking, you're, you're you're cleaning, you're, you're interacting with other volunteers, either in the kitchen or, you know, with the 80s, who are teaching the course conducting the course. So it was like entering a completely new world. And I was, you know, very open to it. It was very fulfilling to me on many levels. I had a, I had a real thirst to sit alive. Oh, and that was, it was really fulfilling that. And, you know, I was also going through a lot of changes, a lot of, you might say, kind of, I don't know, an existential or metaphysical, you know, sense of who I was, and in the world and what the world was about. Similar to my first course, because in some ways, you know, I think I might have mentioned that to my first course, you know, it was, there were initially it was, I would say, a kind of a, it was a destabilizing event, in some ways. It was an extraordinary event, in the sense that I felt like I achieved a lot, just by getting through the two days, but it was also, it uprooted a lot of who I thought I was, and that continued for six months, in an acute way. I really didn't know what was up and what was down or what my life was about, or what direction I should go. It called into question, so many different things. But by the time I had landed at the center, to sit and serve, I was getting to, you know, I had gotten to know the center a little bit and, you know, realize, okay, this is a world here. And let me enter this world. And so as I was entering this world, it, it was interesting, it was interesting to see that, oh, this, this is a whole entire world, like what I did, you know, when I set my first indie course, was not just this, you know, standalone fringe activity. It's like, there's a whole world of people doing this over, you know, sending these courses over and over again, volunteering on these courses, teaching these courses, it's like an entire whole world. And so there was a process really, of getting to know the organization, if that makes sense.
Host 07:39
Yeah, definitely, um, I'm just thinking about the words that you chose. And when you were describing your experiences during this time, and I noticed that side by side, you use the word fulfilling, it was talked about the talk about entering more deeply into that experience. And you also use the word uprooted, and not knowing what was up and down and at face value, these things seem like they're somewhat contradictory that something could be deeply fulfilling, being fulfilling as a sense of being able to navigate something in a satisfactory way. And being uprooted feels like well, not knowing what was up from down, as you said. So at face value, it appears there's some contradiction, but maybe going deeper into it, there's, there's a way these are integrated, or that these these two parallel experiences happening sequentially, or side by side are off and on, make some kind of sense. So how would you describe that that apparent contradiction to the face level?
Jonathan Crowley 08:35
And it's a great question. And I think and I would guess that a lot of meditators feel this way as they go as they enter into retreats, that that the retreat provides, in some ways, a container, you know, for which to plumb and up route aspects of identification in you know, like, in the sense of like, questioning who you are, you know, I mean, I think that that occurs on a on a typical 10 day retreat with Blanca in a profound way, in the sense that, you know, you are experiencing your, let's see, if I can describe this, you know, just observing the breath every moment, observing sensations every moment. You're, you are, in some ways, just as dis identifying from what you think you are, or who you think you are to just this bear experience. Right. And I think there is an uprooting that occurs in that process, but it's, in many ways, it's, it's, it's contained, while you're at least on the retreat, there's a structure your your instructions, your, you know, you've got a schedule, and in some ways that that began to then occur kind of writ large while living at the center. So I would sort of come in and out Out of those experiences in succession, and in some ways, I began to become more used to the the sense of uprooting the sense of like, you know, as a experience, different levels of even my own consciousness, you know, different levels of my mind, and thought, okay, or experienced, you know, profound moments of peace or, or disturbing aspects of my mind as well, you know, I mean, I remember there was a time, you know, I was on some retreat, then and looking at the wall, the patterns, the wall, they began to move and, and they started to form these kind of negative, you know, impressions on the wall, and I thought, Oh, my God, am I going crazy here? You know, how do I snap at you know, you know, but I can also see that was, in some ways, part and parcel of the process of, you know, breaking down sort of structures of my ego or of my perceptions or of, of even, you know, my emotions in right across the board. So, yeah, so there is this uprooting dis, you could say, even disturbing, destabilizing way. And yet, it brings you to these depths, right, it brings you to these insights, it brings you to these, you know, with time, you know, and, of course, sometimes it does take time to integrate it, and I think and digest it. But in some ways, the process of living in the center allowed me to do this in succession, and get used to that process of entering into this operating role in that. And in some ways, that's the way you know, the going cuz courses and retreats are talked about, you know, there, it's like you're in, there's an expectation you're going to go in, you're going to contact a level of impermanence, that's going to, in some ways, rock your world, you know, and disturb it and come to new insights as a result of it. Right. And so, yeah, and sometimes that can be temporarily, psychologically, you know, disturbing or unsettling. And it could take time to kind of integrate, you know, so there were some times I would come up courses, and it would take time, but I was doing these, you know, doing these in succession. And even, you know, volunteering as a server on the courses, you're, you're undergoing some of that, as well, as, you know, even though you're in a, you're in a position of facilitating that for others, to some degree, you're also still undergoing that yourself. Yeah, you're right. It's a kind of a paradox, there's, there's a lot of structure, and yet that structure is allowing you to consume what he's, you know, crack the cosmic egg or slip, flip through the cracks to the basement of your being, you know, and be in that basement, you know, and do that deep work, and then kind of come back, you know, extrovert back up and, and then integrate into the world as best you can. And hope, hopefully, that, you know, is successful, you know, as you as you integrate insights or deeper realities, you know, deeper truths within you.
Host 13:23
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I remember when I did my first course, one of my big questions to myself is, How is this even legal? How do they even let you like, I wasn't even legal to join this thing, where it allows me to do a practice which breaks down all of reality and convention as I know it, and, and explore this in an actual experience and not in words of the books I was reading at the time. And I think it also has to be said that any, this is not unique to going God it's not even unique to meditation, look at psychotherapy, or, or experiences in nature or anything else. And there's, you know, life is, life brings with it. Struggle and and there's whatever framework one is working with, whether it's religious or psychological or societal or anything else, there's there, there are things that are incomplete within within oneself and and that are not functioning to their best degree and are damaged in for whatever reason, whatever way. And to look at that as a painful process. I mean, that has to be said in whatever form you use. If you're not going through some kind of unsettling I mean, the very process of learning I say this as someone who studied learning acquisition theory in my professional life, and even just teaching a language or teaching a new concept, I remember studying I remember courses or we studied the neuroscience of that and it's it's painful to integrate new information even if that new information is you know, how to conjugate verbs in another language or, you know, what, what actually were the real causes of World War One under whatever one is studying, there is the learning process unsettles and upsets and uproots, what we thought we know or what we didn't know. And it's not a question of just implanting this new language, it's a question of having to integrate this new information with everything we are at this time. And that the, the way that the neuroscience was explained to me at the time was that, that breaks apart the existing structure in order to integrate this new information, understanding with it, and that is the process of life every day. And so the deeper the learning experiences, and the more intensive they are, and the nature of them, the one is going to pass through those unsettling periods. So that so just to put some of your experience in context, as I understand it, and, and mentioned that, that being said, you know, you talk about these really profound insights that you're having, from the practice that are, that are starting to question everything and starting to there, you're having to figure out how to integrate these within intensive core structure that's perfectly set up, and you have these profound insights, learning how to take those insights, and then integrate them into actual life, that's becoming that can be a challenge for people as well, learning the effective way to do that, and the relationship between these, but so I wonder if you can talk a little bit more specifically about the types of insights that you were having, and how they were rocking your world, how you were trying successfully and unsuccessfully to integrate them. And then through all of this, how you were changing as a person as you were becoming involved, not just in the practice, but also the community?
Jonathan Crowley 16:38
Yeah, a lot there to cover there. But I'll, I'll do my best here. You know, and I was also, you know, I was also ingesting, you know, going because framework, right. And I think as you know, many of your other going cast students have on this show have described, you know, it is a, it is a actively sort of deconstructing process, right, you're sort of, you know, through the process of observing your breath, sensations and developing equanimity, the, the framework is described, as, you know, a purification process, where whereby, the more you bring equanimity, to this, the observation of this changing phenomenon, the more your mind, then can plumb ever deeper layers and depths, to deeper, deeper, more subtle insights into the reality of, of life, or the reality of, of, you know, of being and so, you know, I was experiencing that on, you know, you know, it sort of typical, probably typical ways, I mean, again, you know, I'm in my early 20s, I'm, you know, this I'm sitting sort of my third to eighth retreat, you know, in this in this time period. And I'm, you know, I'm, I'm assimilating grandkids framework around this, and I think that's, you know, that's an important piece to remember is that I'm adopting that framework and internalizing it, and as I'm going and you know, it at that time, it it of course, it really, you know, it articulated and complemented many other aspects of that kind of work work and it may be at a deeper level. So, I had already come into this work, you know, with a kind of a, a healing framework, a psychotherapeutic framework, and this notion of sort of peeling back the layers was definitely there for me. And so, that was what was going on, on my retreats. I, you know, I would challenge myself, of course, with the, with blancas, famous sittings of strong determinations, or the Adi Tanaka's, where you try not to move for an hour, and really work your, your, to develop your equanimity for whatever is going to happen in that hour. And, you know, those those had very, they were, those were very sort of profound sort of gave me sort of a sense of profound accomplishment to just make to do that, you know, but also just that I was experiencing, I don't know, I mean, you know, and so in some ways, it's such a metaphysical experience of reality in my being, you know, just sitting with pain, for example, or with you know, and when I say the word pain, it doesn't even describe really what it is. It's almost like an existential feeling. thing that may or may not be physically painful, but it was, you know, the mind, you know, you but you're just sitting with that and it's as if you're I don't know, sometimes I feel like I was in this, you know, traveling through this kind of tunnel of my being and whatever was kind of coming when the forefront of my screen or through me or in me, I was just being with and and I had the sense of okay, this is valuable to do this, right this is this is important, I'm going to get to some other side, I'm going to get to a sense of liberation because of this again, according to going framework, this was a this was a liberating process, right. So the more equanimity I brought to these existentially just, you know, disturbing experiences within my being, the more I was also clearing, clearing the slate of my mind and peeling back layers and as, as he would articulate purifying those layers, right. So, you know, and I did come off courses, you know, really feeling a sense of lightness and feeling. And, you know, an incredible, I don't know, subtlety in my mind. Subtlety, my perceptions as an as an innocence, I actually, actually, that word came up a lot for me, I felt like I was re capturing it my own innocence. And that was quite magical. For me, that was quite, you know, I just felt like I was, you know, able to just like, you know, have this childlike mind again, you know, and all of that was, he was absolutely transformative and magical, really, I mean, it was just, you know, I was just like, Oh, my God, it's like, you know, again, this is, I think I described before, you know, coming, it's like a secret superpower, you know, and, and then to see how the practice of loving kindness, you know, filled in, you know, sort of filled in that space, of, of innocence and purity, and this lightness of mind and this openness, you know, the spaciousness that I would come off the retreats with, it was incredible. And, you know, it had been a few years, but, you know, I had certainly gone through my spate of recreational drugs, and, you know, hallucinogenics and so, the fact that, you know, and I, you know, I was aware of the whole movement around that, you know, I had gone to see rom das speak, you know, and I knew his whole story there, and, you know, of his experiments. And so, the fact that this was happening in a drug free environment that was based on morality, you know, on the, on the, on the five precepts of, you know, non harming, it was just so revelatory on so many levels, you know, in terms of just how it was changing me. And, yeah, and then, of course, it was also getting to know other people who were doing that, this, that same thing to doing sit serving, and that that was their, their world, and that they were trying to, you know, they were trying to make it happen, you know, based on their livelihood, or their circumstances in life and how they fit that in. And, of course, as a, as, you know, I was in my early 20s, and was not even I hadn't completed college, and there were a lot of question marks around that for me around that process. And so, this was so captivating. And, and it, you know, when I thought about, you know, going back even to college, I was like, Well, why, you know, this is such profound work, you know, why, why would I want to do anything else? And so, in many ways, I yeah, I began to then think about both ways to integrate it. And ways to continue doing this in in some ways, and the, the, I guess the question in the task became, okay, yeah, if I have to go back to work or I have to go back to school. How do I how do I integrate you know, what's happening here and how do I begin to articulate this to myself about what's happening you know, in my own words, so that was that was that was if that's if that's helpful that's kind of what was what was happening to me Yeah.
Host 24:26
Yeah, that's That's great to hear and I just hearing it's really interesting you land on the word innocence I that's such a powerful term and, and it brings back in contrast so much it reminds me of my very first course in Japan after a few days of Anapana walking out in the outside men's walking area and just starting to stare at like spider webs and do the leaves and, and other things. And I I remembered that, you know, I grew up an only child in Northern California in pretty rural countryside. So it wasn't like a typical neighbor, neighborhood. And so I spent a lot of my childhood playing outside by myself. And we didn't have TV reception, we were in the redwoods. And so it was, I had to fill a lot of hours. And I filled a lot of those hours by by just playing in the Redwoods by myself, inventing my own games and everything else. And when I remember when I saw those, the do on the spider webs and the creek flowing, I remembered that sometime earlier in my childhood, this innocence of that was the only thing that felt it. And that was the only there was only the mind for that. And it was the shock to me that I had, I lost that. And I had no idea I had forgotten that I had it. And then I didn't realize that I had lost it. And suddenly I was here in this garden recapturing this, I mean, as I'm saying this, it almost sounds like you know, Marcel Proust, or something, the the, the taste of the sweet cake that that brings you back to the childhood thing, but this, this pristine memory that that had had imbued and filled my childhood, that suddenly my mind this was, you know, this was 2001. So this was long before the age of streaming and mobile phones and everything else is for the distracted us. But still, I just felt that I had I had come down and return to some, some youthful in a sense, where the the beauty and the the the magic and the unpredictability of the of the natural world was was the only thing that was there. And then of course, as I went further into the practice, I realized, oh, it's not just about this, it's it's, it's not just about clearing your mind. And then appreciating the beauty of a dragonfly or a stream flowing or something. It's it's actually this, this deep mental purification work. And that that was really a transformation in my own path is realizing it was it was not just a subconscious exploration and a cleaning of, of the senses to come back to center and appreciate just a more simple the simplicity that can feel the life but it's actually as I started, as you say, as I started to understand going because instructions and more detail on future courses, a deep cleaning out of the mental impurities and defilements, which which set me on on on a very directed and concentrate, I'd say even I would say even rigid path of no longer really having the same time for you know, the simplified view of the do on the on the spider webs because I was walking with eyes downcast and following instructions very, very carefully about the technique to get the most out of it. And everything else I'm just kind of going off on on my own reflection, as I hear that. What I actually want to follow up with you on is that hearing your talk just now what what really strikes me and what really stands out is not so much of what you're saying but how you're saying it. And from all the recorded conversations we've had up until now. And all of the many, many more unrecorded conversations we have there's there was something emerging and breaking through and this last bit you shared that was beyond again, what you were saying but how you were saying it there there was there was this all consuming joy and participation and belief in the energy of how you were describing it and how how what you were doing at that time and and what feeling you were putting into it. And I think somehow in describing it maybe you can tell me if I'm if I'm reading too much into things, but somehow, in how you were describing that period, some energy or life from how it actually was like to live in that period seemed to come up and animate how you were reflecting and thinking about it. So you weren't just remembering and recalling a time but you were actually in some way living back through and just a small way who you were during that period. And it was your voice was animated by that sense of excitement and purpose and, and passion and joy and everything else. And so I wonder if you can go in that direction and just explore. Like, if that is the case, if you if there was something you were feeling as you went through those descriptions and and then kind of unpack that, what does that mean? What is that feeling? And how did it how did it come to characterize you then why did it what what was capturing about what you were doing and how you were doing it that was just so powerful, and who you were at the time?
Jonathan Crowley 29:22
Yeah, well, and again, you know, going back to that sense of innocence that you're describing, I mean, you know, it did become way more than that. But I think at the core of my almost all of my retreats, I would contact that sort of sense of of profound innocence and openness and almost like an original mind, you know, kind of experience. And it really was in some ways, I think part of what drove me to connect and continue to sit retreats, but also like you i wanted to I needed to, you know, I knew I was obviously ingesting and adopting and working glenkinchie framework, but I also needed to I, at the same time I needed to discover a context for a broader context for that, you know, and, you know, I, naturally I, you know, I was raised, you know, in an academic kind of way, you know, in terms of high school and early college and, and my family, you know, my, my father was definitely an academic and intellectual and so, I needed to really understand the context. But it was that it really was that, you know, pure kind of, you know, innocence that I was contacting retreat after retreat after retreat that was so transformative. And I think it is, yeah, and I feel that I feel it now. I mean, I would say I, you know, I think it is a quality of Dhamma. Right, it is a quality, that that sense of upliftment and joy. And in Froment really, you know, it, it's, I think it's, you know, part and parcel of any path in the Dhamma. And I was seeing that, in many ways, the, you know, the, the experience of sitting, these retreats was recovering something very deep and profound, and old within me, you know, something very basic, something very pure something. And, and it was extremely thrilling to be to be to be experiencing that. And I still feel that way, like I, you know, I can still relate to what that was like for me in, in my early 20s. And it was, it was also clear that it was kind of like this, almost like, it's like best kept secret, like, you know, I realized, of course, that it took enormous efforts, I mean, just to undergo a 10 day retreat is an enormous undertaking, and that, you know, throngs of people were not going to be attracted to that. And so it was just also interesting to me to see. Okay, so but yeah, there's this group of people here at the center, and other people who are kind of coming in and out of the center that the public. But at that time, you know, this was now 8819 88. And it was, it still seem to be still quite fringe, you know, this was not something that I was hearing about in the news and reading about in the papers. And there was very little in the media about the notion of taking retreats like this, and certainly not, you know, in succession, you know, so I was aware that what I was doing was quite unusual, and that it was kind of a scan to everything that I had been conditioned to do in society. And so, I was also becoming aware that, okay, I'm also entering into a rarefied kind of world that is, you know, not mainstream that is secluded, that is apart. And I became aware of that I also I needed to figure out, okay, what are the words that I, you know, how do I articulate this to even just my, my circle of friends, my college friends, my, my family, you know, how do I, how do I make sense to them about what I'm doing and why I'm doing it? And, you know, sometimes there was there at that, at that time, there was no easy answers. And luckily, just based on kind of, well, I'm just gonna say, you know, my my privilege as a white man and and also, just my family upbringing and my family of origin, the dynamics were such that I was able to take this time and kind of, you know, dip through the cracks of society and do something completely non non conformities non mainstream. And, you know, see where it led me
Host 34:22
to think what's really interesting that this that you're breaking through to not just be retelling but actually reliving what this was like at the time and bringing up those memories and feelings and, and who you were and how you started to become accustomed to it. And yeah, I remember with my friends with my also young to mid 20s. And mostly in Asia at that time, and then eventually I started my first few years were all in Asia before I had any experience at an American passionate center. So it was more the types of people I was with were also somewhat the Westerners at least were somewhat away from home and living those kind of lives. And I just remember we would, we would be out doing things between courses and just be like, This is amazing, like, this is free and, and we don't need anything, there's nothing we need to buy, there's nothing we need to do, we could just sit, maybe that's what you talked about the special power, you could just sit there, shut everything off and go to observation and find this extraordinary piece. And possibility and, and, and renewal that I never knew was possible. I didn't this is not a supplement. It's not a drug. It's not a life experience. It's it's just, it's also not sitting and doing nothing. I mean, meditation is not at least this meditation is not sitting and doing nothing. You, you it's just a refocus of your attention to something else, which has these kinds of profound results that I never thought could be possible. And like you I, I thought and I think many young people that go on to it, there's definitely an evangelicalism that can can come with it. A feeling like this is so good for me, this should also be good for everyone I know. And this should also be good for all of society. And imagine what would happen to the world if people did this and kind of moving beyond oneself. And just thinking just well, just thinking about the, the incredible harmony one has. And also just with that, when one really is at Harmony and at peace, however one finds it, there can be a genuine wish that Boy, I wish others can also feel this thing I'm feeling this is this is just a really good thing to feel other than, you know, I know, I know what it's like when you don't feel this so. So also I'm going back and remembering as I was passing through those periods, and just the the new possibilities on one hand the really the the new possibilities and horizons and potentials that were there that I had never known because I had never directed my mind towards those possibilities. And yet also the incredible confusion and about integration and who I was and how to take this and how to bring practice into who I was as a person and how I dealt in the world and, and everything else there was just an being young and having your whole career ahead. What what do I want in terms of family or career or money or security or, or just a renunciate spiritual practice, which, like, it seems this gives me all I want in the moment. And so why do I need anything else? Do I need anything else? Lanka is not a monastic society, it does not encourage people to move in Aztecs, it very much does the opposite. And, and it's very different from a place like Burma, where going into a renunciation monastic life is very much a possibility. And there's many reasons why people do it's very, sometimes very rarely, the reasons of one just wanting to aim for the higher spiritual echelons, there's many it's much more complicated and much more that goes on there. But for Westerners, that's usually the thing pretty much driving it. Is that, that motivation? And that, that sense of? Of, of why would I want anything more when the moment does fulfill me? And then what does this mean? How do I construct a life out of this?
Jonathan Crowley 38:12
Well, just yeah, just resonate with, you know, that that process of both, such a deep introspection, and then looking outside, okay, you know, this is giving such great benefit? And, and, and how, you know, how does this, who is this attracting? And what is this, what is the world of doing this, and, and glenkinchie, of course, you know, he, you know, you begin to hear in the 10 day course, you know, that, it's like, more and more people, you know, come to these courses, and these retreats and experience, you know, this Dhamma and I, you know, as at now, sitting in serving at the retreat center, I was becoming part of the mechanism by which that was happening, I was fielding phone calls from the public, you know, with applicants who, you know, had questions about the retreats and was in, you know, stepping into, in some ways, that representational role where I was, you know, playing, you know, I was being that advocate for this experience, you know, and that was, in some ways, a gradual, in some ways, a slow process, both at the same time. But it began it, you know, in many ways, my it, the, the, seeing how it impacted other people, to see how it was being written about to begin to even read the context of the Buddhist teachings, you know, to begin to read the early symptoms, which I began to do in this during this time. All that was contributing to the sense of like this world being actually in some ways, much bigger than I realized and And that, it, you know, it might be possible, you know that my family might join me in this experience, or my, my, my closest friends and my college friends are. And that, you know that that then became began to happen as I think began to articulate it, and began to normalize this experience, which was so unbelievably unnormal and extraordinary, right, but as it normalized, and I was able to articulate it, and was then, you know, facilitating it, and in as a volunteer for others, you know, whether whether I was debriefing their retreat after having cooked for them or, you know, fielding your application questions, or, you know, phone calls to the center. And, yeah, so I, you know, I began to then internalize this, this whole apparatus, right, you know, I began to, you know, I began to serve it and represent it really, during this time during these eight months, and it was, you know, certainly at the beginning level, I was just a volunteer, but I was, you know, when, you know, when you're asked to be the course manager, there's a sense of a lot of responsibility there, or even the kitchen manager, you know, cooking for the whole group, it's a huge responsibility, and you, you, you, you, then you get this larger sense of doing of serving a larger cause, right, and that, that piece began to then be a part of this experience. And so again, you know, just to reiterate that this profound inner experience, a transformational experience, and then a sense of cause even a mission in the world that began to develop in me around, okay, you know, here's a mechanism by which the world could transform in a similar way, you know, what I'm seeing happening myself? Oh, my gosh, what, what impact could this have, you know, on society, you know, on all the all the parts of society that I, in some ways was probably trying already, you know, thinking I needed to heal from or transform or wish were different, or, you know, could this, you know, really transformed the world is the question I began to ask myself.
Host 42:19
Yeah, certainly. And whether it was looking at like racism, or the problems with the environment, or problems with division in America, or poverty or whatever else, it seems that there was a feeling, at least for me, that, that all of this time trying to actually do this messy stuff to figure out was just based on people acting blindly from their impurities, and that if they just were able to look at those impurities, and sit with them, that so many of the terrible things that had happened in history up until now, and what the modern problems that we had, were from people reacting blindly to impurities, and to sensations rather than developing the wisdom to be able to grow from them, learn from them be economists, and that, so much would be solved, if you can just do that. And, you know, for me to go from having an experience initially that I couldn't even believe was legal, to then trying to figure out how to integrate it somewhat into me, and also integrate into the community, and then look at my wider web of contacts, as well as the overall world and those issues. You know, it gave a sense of profound confidence. And, you know, in some ways, I look back at that confidence, I cringe and I'm ashamed of, of conversations, I remember having which I need to share and the, you know, in this, this kind of podcast discussion of vulnerability, and, and, and we're calling these but I just I remember conversations in grad school where people were talking about, about problems of racism in society, and examining privilege and things like that. And I don't remember how I said it. But I think I remember saying something about how, because of the path that I was on, everything was going to take care of it for me, I was good. And, and, and I had a practice that was that was going beyond the the duality of race that that people were were married in, and that I was, you know, that I that, that yeah, that I was basically good, and in my behavior and my contribution to this. And at the same time, you know, one of the things that I often remark on, and this is a big tangent, so I'm not going to give examples, but just just bring it up as a bookmark to where we're talking is that Burma has an incredible country, when you look at historically in the sense that there have been many iterations of wanting to bring the perfect practice or the perfect Buddhism to a system of governance from the top level down to grassroots and believing that this will be a transformational change. And I think there's no greater example than who knew who was the the Democratic leader after World War Two after independence, before the military to coup took over in 1962. By all accounts, who was an incredible man, a very devout Buddhist, a very committed meditator at one point the Korean rebellion had had nearly taken over the country and was just about to take over Yangon. He was sitting in a self 60 day course and refuse to be disturbed from his course to attend to the the Korean rebellion which could topple his government. And, and there are just so many examples of how new took measures to bring. Not not just like religious Buddhism, but actually like the passion of practice, which was that that was then the movement was taking off in Burma. You know, before this was the movement that captured Glinka, which then captured the hippies, which then capture the world. And this was all starting from lady say it and Mahasi Seda and in Burma at this time, and ooo, was seeing this as the new Burmese identity. And really, you know, so much of this world mindfulness movement can be traced back to government initiatives, the new new did I mean, you think that say Juba can was a government minister, who was receiving not just permission, but actually benefits from transforming his office into a shrine room where religious chanting and meditation instructions and religious figures of monks and other people could come and give instructions on Buddhism in government premises. And it's just it's, it's so shocking to realize that the foundation of the worldwide mindfulness movement and, you know, certainly Goenka came from government benefits to religious practice, which is, which is something that we have very different opinions on here. And anyway, to make a long story short, because I'm getting this is a fascinating subject, and I can I can, I can go on and on when I start to bring it up.
Jonathan Crowley 46:38
Yeah, what you bring up as important because it I think it has to do with the attraction, at least for it sounds like, you know, what I'm hearing you say, but also, for me, it was like, connecting the personal to the political, right. And we began to hear the stories just right, in the 10 day chord, the recorded 10 day courses, right of, of the role that he played, right, in terms of bringing this to his government offices. And that ideal, right, the ideal of bringing something you know, so such a personal development tool, you might say, are transformative tool, meditation, to a government, you know, political context, right. And the hope that that, you know, you were, you know, that that was, I think, beginning to instill in me, you know, became very a big piece of my sense of mission around continuing with this tradition with grandkids, great grandkids tradition. Yeah.
Host 47:37
Yeah, that to put a cap on what I'm saying. I mean, what's what's so fascinating was that in new you have the example of a legitimately bonafide, devout and committed not just Buddhists, but the passionate meditator who believes in to the passionate meditation as the solution to his country, gaining independence and capturing its identity and wanting to bring the individual personal benefits of the practice to the country writ large in terms of government policy, in all kinds of ways I can go into if we had time, but the point of it is, is it was disastrous, it was absolutely disastrous, it, it not just failed, but it made things 10 times 100 times worse by what he was doing. And so And even today, with the N ug, you see some of what I would what I would call some of the more beneficial and ethical and beautiful parts of the Buddhist practice coming into play and trying to be taken from the individual level of practice and ethics and living to the government bureaucracy level and it's absolutely failing and it doesn't work and so for me this you know, my and we're jumping way ahead and we'll get we'll get back to your story and tighten tie this in because I do think there's a tie in there. But to me, it was just you know, going from from being this naivete or to use the word we said before innocent feeling, that this this this profound superpower that I had for peace and and wholesomeness and wholeness and, and everything else that was that was a way forward that I had never believed in or found before. That if if other people could just also find the way to not react to their sensations and to their defilements that we can resolve things never thought possible to resolve before. Fast forward to seeing those experiments played out in Burma to some effect and seeing absolutely disastrous results. And leaving will cave where does this fit into, you know, how, where's the practice individual? And how do you bring it to community? And where do you then need to maybe leave behind the practice and look at actually good practices for whatever you're doing? And this all gets more convoluted, but I want to tie that in and bring that back in to your story because you're this is jumping ahead and bringing in other concepts and you know, bringing in 20th century Burmese history and all other kinds of stuff. Getting back to your story. You're a progressive. New Englander who's New York slash New York Her who's who's been into these kinds of healing and, and therapeutic kind of practices and you're, you're coming from an intellectual background, this practice, which has now benefited you so much in such surprising ways you're becoming so integrated into this community, your world is growing bigger. And you're starting to also play with this idea of how can this this technique and practice which is giving so much benefit on an individual level, how can this be applied to then heal the world or at least heal the community or the state or something else? So talk a bit about that transformation and what you were what you were like?
Jonathan Crowley 50:39
Yeah, great, great question. Yeah, I mean, it began to tap into my deepest ideals, essentially. And, and yet, you know, and of course, as you know, the Kokichi tradition is run on a donation basis. You know, as Donna, and that, you know, watching how that actually functioned was part of some of the idealism that was occurring for me, in the sense of, like, I knew I could really trust, you know, this, the, you know, the, the organization engendered a lot of trust, because of the level of just integrity that it was doing, you know, certain functions, but certainly the finances that donation basis that, that people were not even paying for their retreats, they were they were paying forward according to their means, according to their volition. You know, I watched hundreds of times, as you know, people would offer just one or $5 at the donation table at the end of their 10 Day retreats, and that, that it was completely genuinely smilingly accepted. And that had really profound effects on me, you know, I said, Oh, my gosh, this is this is really open to everyone, you know, but then I began to also ask myself, okay, who is it not available to? You? No. And that, as I was living there, for those, you know, eight or nine months that that question, you know, really intrigued me like, Okay, who doesn't get to benefit from this in our society? And I don't think I realized that at the time, but I think, you know, there were some, there were some social justice, there was some social justice orientations in me that was asking that question and was wanting to explore that. And, and I began to least as you know, answer that on some levels. Because while I was there, I was opening the mail, and many times was opening a letter from an incarcerated individual, that was writing to the Center for either materials or to try to have a pen pal, or to see if somehow they could, you know, understand more about what we were doing. And it you know, it sort of dawned on me, okay, this, you know, folks who are incarcerated or not, are very unlikely they're going to have this experience. And that became something that really, you know, intrigued me and drew me in, as I, you know, responded to some of these inmates, you know, and figured out ways that we were able to donate some of the information, you know, sometimes just the information booklets about the center and the practice, but sometimes some books, you know, and began to also, you know, write back and forth with some of these folks about their situation and about how, you know, what, what it was like, on the inside. And that, you know, that really began to treat me so that was one department. And then the other thing that I saw that was really quite profound when I was there for security for those eight or nine months is that Cambodian refugees were being settled in Massachusetts, and the center began to receive, well, basically host, you know, career courses or career retreats that were just bilingual career English exclusively for? Or maybe it wasn't exclusive. But there would be, you know, busloads of Cambodian folks who had been, you know, who were recently being resettled in Massachusetts coming to the retreat, and taking their retreat in their language. And I thought, oh, my gosh, what you know how amazing that you know, these recent immigrants who have been through an unspeakable trauma are contacting you know, their cultures. actresses at this level and able to, you know, my supposition was to, you know, you know, heal from the trauma they had been in and, you know, kind of regain a sense of community in, in, in the United States. So there were these places where I began to see oh, okay, you know, there's some inroads into which this practice could actually, you know, can can benefit, you know, larger entities within society. And that began to attract me and then treat me and, yeah, that became, that became a focus for me. But before that, before that, I got really into that, you know, I was still in my own process of integration. And, you know, it was during those eight to nine months that my two to my brothers, two brothers, you know, my two brothers came and set a retreat. And, and then at the very end of it, my mother came and set a retreat. And so, you know, to experience, you know, this you know, this activity with my family was another whole level of kind of healing, you might say, in my life. You know, I have a twin brother, so we've, we've, historically, we've had this very, very deep connection, we're fraternal twins, but we've just always had this kind of very, you know, very deep sense of connection. And, and so when he came, and I was, you know, just, I think I was, I forget, if I was, if I set the same retreat with him, or whether I was serving, I think I sat the same retreat with him his first retreat, and it was just, you know, that, you know, we always talked about, you know, the sense of being in a womb together, well, you know, there was nothing more one light than, than the experience of being on this retreat. And so, and then, you know, my older brother, who, you know, had already, by this time, you know, been suffering from some mental illness, you know, I, you know, I watched him undergo this experience, and then saw him at the end of it, and to see his face, you know, I have, you know, a photo of him, you know, on the day that he broke silence, you know, we've just such a faceful of loving kindness and metta, you know, and was profound is absolutely profound to see that my brother and my older brother, and so, you know, just to describe a situation where it was, like, you know, seeing this go from my own experience, I knew nobody, when I first set a retreat, you know, to then discovering a war kind of community and a world of people, you know, from even, you know, outside applicants who are coming from all over the country, or, you know, from Canada or from our own world. And then to watch my family enter, you know, this same place, I thought, you know, it was really, again, this sense of idealism around Oh, this can really this can spread, you know, and I began to internalize that, that that messaging from glenkinchie, about the spread of Dhamma, right. And I think what I didn't realize, and, you know, we can elaborate further was that, for glenkinchie, you know, the spread of dharma, I think, really was the spread of his, his framework of the Dharma. And I, in some ways, I had no distinctions at that time of anything else, right. So it was the Dhamma. For me, his framework was the entire Dhamma. And even though I was also at the same time, discovering a larger context, you know, there were books, you know, I was reading Tera, Vaada books, and this understanding that there were other traditions, traditions and other countries, Southeast Asian countries besides Myanmar, besides India, you know, and so, I was sort of beginning to get a lay of the land as well. But this was all a process of, you might say, stepping into the world with this practice, and with in some ways, this tradition as well. Like I said, it felt very fringe when I first began to sit retreats, but as time went on, I began to see that, you know, more and more regular working folks, corporate folks, you know, from all, you know, spectrums of conventional, you know, sort of society, we're coming to sit retreats, and it was just like, wow, okay.
Host 59:47
So you're describing a process that's going basically from fringe to validation from something that you have to be in the right place at the right time to even hear about and believe me, I've heard those stories from doing enough of these interviews. Some of the most well known practitioners and teachers today got their start because a copy of Siddhartha by Hermann Hasselt was left on a beach and instigated their journey or, you know, on an LSD trip in San Francisco or Afghanistan or wherever else they, they met someone who had knew someone who had taken some course somewhere. And that idea always remained in them. And this is, you know, this is long before the days of internet searches, and Google and YouTube and everything else, this is really fringe and the full meaning of the word into and you as this technique, as well as the wider mindfulness meditation, Eastern practices, including yoga as this whole thing started to become more and more normalized in this country, and especially in your region in the Northeast. In that time, what you had found is something so fringe that no one, you know, anyone doing it, no one even really understood it. And it went from that to being something you said it perfectly something that was corporate that was that people were coming from all over coming from working class backgrounds, and and it was starting to grow before you. So what, what, if any feeling did that have for you? And I say, if any, because I think some people could be more affected by this growth and this sense of validation, and this sense of everything coming together? And I think others would, I think there's other personality types that would, really wouldn't affect a much they're just they're doing their practice, and they're noticing this happen. So what, what, if any influence did this type of growth and validation and wider practice start to do to you and your practice and your life and your integration, your sense of purpose and everything else?
Jonathan Crowley 1:01:41
Yeah. I mean, I think I mean, by this time, in my life, I had already articulated an idealism around, you know, the personal is political, that that that inner transformation, you know, is going to be part and parcel of what transforms helps to transform the world, I have this idealism around transforming the world. And so I, I think I personally did need to see impact beyond just my own experience and a small group of people. I think that is just part of who I am. And although I may not have been fully aware of it at the time, that it was that was in operation, I was definitely there was aspirations around that. And I didn't know what that looked like, or, and, and also, you know, I was also, you know, becoming aware of, of course, some of the, you know, the restrictions within the Glinka framework, there were a lot of rules and regulations around, you know, not mixing techniques that I became aware of, you know, with other traditions, there were stipulations around, you know, setting, the longer retreats around that around, you know, being a volunteer on a corpse. And so I was having also to grapple with, with that, you know, wanting a larger, you know, wanting a kind of, to see a larger impact happen, but feeling like, the organization had the structures in place that actually prevented some of that from happening. And so, but I, it was funny, because I think at the time, I sort of took it as like a, as almost like a Rubik's cube or something to solve some, like thing to figure out because I, I appreciated why a lot of those rules and regulations were in place in the sense that I see, okay, you know, really to create this very rarefied intensive, you know, experience that happened in silence over 10 days, it does take a lot of structure, and, you know, you might say restriction or, you know, limitations or rules, you know, to, to kind of like to pull that off to, like, have that in place. And you needed, you know, it seemed like you needed that to be there. But at the same time, you know, there were a number of those rules that, you know, didn't sit, you know, I didn't understand. And as you know, I, you know, was coming into this having done psychotherapy, before being the son of the psychiatrists and seeing that, you know, also that there was, you know, silos that were being articulated around the Dhamma versus, you know, psychology or Dhamma, versus, you know, doing social work in the world, you know, I began to sort of see that end. And never, I think the refrain I began to hear was, well, we, you know, just doing 10 day courses, you know, somehow this is this is all going to lead to a transformation of the world. And, you know, I, I questioned that, but I also I think, at the same time was what would be the right word, you know, trying to You know, I guess digested as well, is that like, is that true? Is that is that is that really the way it's gonna go? You know, is it going to be this, you know, only this totally inner transformational experience through 10 day courses that's going to ultimately transform, you know, vast swaths of society, you know, in the, in terms of the ideals and, you know, so I struggled with that quite a bit around. Yeah, just some of the limitations that the, that the organization had in terms of interacting outside in mainstream society. And I began to perceive, of course, that that there were many insular aspects of the organization at that time. And I, you know, it seemed, on some levels justifiable, because it was, you know, I thought, Okay, well, it's, it's, it's preserving this experience is profound, deep, intensive, rarefied experience. So it has to have all these protections, yes, place, you know, but at the same time, I was detecting this siloing, of, of other aspects of the world that, you know, didn't make sense to me, and felt, you know, overly protective. Let's just put it that way. And, you know, beginning and, you know, I don't know, I maybe I'm a rebel, you know, at heart, you know, but I, as much as I really appreciated all of the rules and regulations in some ways. I was also, you know, I'm a, I think I'm a rule breaker on some levels and wanted to, you know, see what, you know, how some of this, how we how things could be done differently, basically, yeah.
Host 1:06:50
That's really interesting. And especially as we delve deeper into your journey, and being a rebel and a rule breaker and someone who's questioning this, at the same time, it has to be mentioned, we haven't gotten into this, it's probably a good time to do it. You two different tracks. One is the prisons you mentioned and interest in social justice and prison reform and, and meditation in prisons, and you went to to Donaldson prison to, to actually deliver these, these courses as a representative within this maximum security that became a feature length documentary. And at the same time, you are perhaps not at the same time, but But around this period as well. You go on to become a teacher and someone of the ultimate authority and responsibility and representative. And so I think, yeah, I think these are a good moment to diverge and start to explore the greater responsibility you chose to take on with these pathways. Which of those do you want to take first? The present or the future?
Jonathan Crowley 1:07:53
Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, even the work in, you know, working with correctional facilities that that was, by the time, you know, we got to Alabama, it many, many years had transpired. I mean, I began to do outreach. So I was very fortunate, because another trustee in at the center, sort of took me under his wing as a kind of a mentor, and was also interested in in in this correspondence, I began with some inmates and some correctional facilities, and we thought, well, wow, you know, could could this happen? And we, you know, we began to sort of do some outreach, you know, writing, you know, just cold call, and writing to facilities, and, you know, sending the materials, you know, the brochures and the pamphlets of the 10 day course, and just seeing what, see if anything would stick, you know, we, we we, you know, we began to do even presentations, but there was we didn't have a whole lot to convey in terms of this being sort of a mainstream or acceptable activity to happen in a correctional facility. We knew some folks had already begun to do that. And I'm thinking, some of the some of the, you know, some of the folks who really pioneered this work. And so I think, what was a real breakthrough was that, you know, India, going to GE himself had done, you know, retreats in correctional facilities in India in 1975. So we were aware of the stories of, of, I think there were two retreats that were given. And it was like, you know, it just sort of dropped off, you know, the map after that it was never taken up again. But then in the early 90s, when so I by that time, I was actually in the early 90s, I was actually living at glenkinchie Center In India, his main center, the flagship center, dama, Gary, just about three hours northeast of Mumbai and was studying Pali the the language that indo European languages Procrit language that the, the early earliest Buddhist scriptures were written down in. And, and so I was fully immersed in the organization then. And some of you know, my mentors, you know, teacher mentors were I think what had happened there, there was a new inspector general of of prisons in India, and she had come across Vipassana through one of her correctional officers and had invited 80s Going G and he used to go to the what was then I think, the largest Correctional Facility in India, it was a prison that held 10,000 inmates. And they put it I think, of course, on initially for 100 inmates. And then a subsequent course was held for 301 of again, one of the teachers who I was very close with went and conducted that retreat from he was one of the only, I think, Westerner, Western teachers on that, on conducting that, that helping to conduct that course. And, and then subsequently, there was a another retreat held for 1000. And that that became this the the subject of a, a, an award winning documentary. And so suddenly, we had materials that we could, you know, take to correctional facilities in this country. And so, my good buddy, Bruce Stewart, and I was we're cold calling correctional facilities and doing presentations, in front of, you know, sometimes wardens, or directors of treatment, or security personnel, around the possibility of introducing a retreat. So that went on for about, I mean, really, I was doing outreach for I think, about 10 or 12 years. And, and then suddenly, there was another big break, in actually in Washington State, associated with the center there, whereby an old student who was actually a nurse practitioner inside a, I think it was a minimum security county jail facility was convinced his superintendent of the facility to sit a retreat, and she did, and she then began, in, you know, incorporating implementing a program of 10 D courses in her facility for that, that occurred for five, I think it went on for about five years, and was a subject of research that, you know, made it into the American jail Association magazine. And so suddenly, this was like, you know, and, and then I went out to actually volunteer on one of those retreats. And so for the first time, I was experiencing, what it was like to facilitate a retreat like that in this domain, you know, in a correctional setting, after having done so much, you know, kind of presentations, outreach to facilities here in the northeast, which, you know, didn't, we're not flying because of different reasons. And so that was the that was, you know, yeah, I was definitely stepping out into the world with the pasta and with, with going kgs. retreats. Yeah.
Host 1:13:57
Right. So that's an opportunity to actually bring social justice reform directly into places through this Dhamma practice and going, sounds like for you, it was the results after many years, and many attempts of trying to get in and finally finding places and you play some small role in Washington and then a larger role in Alabama. And so then talk us through how this development went on and how, and as you started to get deeper into this process of bringing Dharma bringing the light of this meditation to some very dark places and people who had some who who had quite a bit of unhealed trauma in them, what that experience was like and doing the thing that in some ways, you know, you've described you've been really called to do to not just benefit from this yourself but to use this in perhaps an idealistic or naive or innocent or maybe effective depending on the way he was looking at it. I hope that this will heal the world that this this is the this is the thing that people will need to get better. And as they get better and they get healed, they will in turn heal the society around them this, I imagine, to a large part, this is some of the motivation and intention in wanting, wanting to bring this there. So talk a bit about that experience as you got deeper into this, and you were able to effectively carry out some of these programs in very serious prisons.
Jonathan Crowley 1:15:22
Yeah, and it's interesting. I mean, there Yeah, it was definitely a social, you know, it was moving into a sort of a social application of, of this, you know, profound, transformative personal experience, and, and many ways that dated back to, you know, earlier parts of even my childhood, where I remember, I watched a film, where, you know, it was about a wrongly accused person who was, you know, sent to penal colonies, and then, you know, spends the whole movies about him trying to escape from that. But I, you know, I remember feeling like, early on, like, oh, gosh, you know, to be incarcerated, you know, wrongly accused and incarcerated. But that began to, I think, also really, you know, expanded to a greater understanding of just incarceration and how in, you know, in the United States and how it happens here, but it was interesting, because, as I, as I, you know, began to enter into, you know, correctional institutions, the whole notion of doing it for any kind of prison reform, I had to kind of put that aside, in order to, you know, we became aware as we became more involved with correctional facilities that correctional facilities were not interested in, you know, in prison reform by any means. You know, and, and certainly not in terms of social justice. And so, in some ways, I had to kind of reframe what I was doing, to understand that, okay, you know, we were going in, we are transforming lives within this institution, that, you know, obviously, does a lot of harm. And, and so it was, you know, trying to recalibrate, that kind of sense of, you know, inner work for outside transformation. And, and, to be honest, I was really, I would say, I was still very racially naive at the time that I was doing this. So I, I was compelled, I wanted to, I wanted to, you know, I was, it was clear for me that I wanted to bring this retreat experiences to populations that would not normally have access to it. And, you know, I, but I was naive to the settings that I was going into to some of the social, racial, economic, you know, injustice that had brought so many folks to these institutions. And so although I was going in with my ideals, in some ways, it was a mech, it was it was a mechanism and a vehicle for me to actually understand better my own ideals and understand my values and clarify them and to undergo my own transformation around some of the, you know, just yeah, just understanding oppression in the world. And so the big breakthrough happened with Alabama, I think the the, the retreats were continuing in Washington, we had several films that we were using documentaries that were the one for India, the one there was one produced for from the facility in Washington. And so, you know, and then by this time, you know, the whole field of mindfulness of you know, particularly of Jon Kabat Zinn's tradition of, of Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction was very mainstream. And there was the research that had was happening, you know, with those with those programs was published and legitimate, and we were using those research outcomes to justify like what, you know, to convince to persuade to, you know, correctional facilities to consider implementing our 10 day retreat. And so, what happened was kind of unusual. I mean, I got a call, you know, out of the blue from someone who was a volunteer in the Alabama facility, and she said, Listen, I we'd like to you We'd like to set up a 10 day course, you know, in the in the facility. And I, you know, I, they've watched the the Indian film doing time during the past night and the inmates themselves want this, they want this experience. And so how can we do this? And, you know, by this time, I have done so much outreach that, you know, and was so aware of just the hurdles that had to be overcome to get up to get a program into inside a facility, that, you know, I just had to sort of apply the brakes right away and just say, it's going to take time, you know, and there's, there's, there's a number of conditions that have to be met. And, you know, the notion of, of somehow from Massachusetts that we would execute a program of retreats, you know, within the highest maximum security prison, Alabama just seemed completely just out there to me, you know, like, how, you know, how is this possibly going to happen, and so much so that I actually didn't even mention it to any senior teachers for a long time, because it was just so out there. But meanwhile, I began to have a conversation with this woman, Jenny Phillips. And she then introduced me to the psychologists at the facility, who then became the director of treatment for the state of Alabama. And then we were introduced to his replacement, who was the next psychologist, Dr. Deborah Marshall, and this whole process over about I think it was about two years of conversations, in terms of, you know, the notion of bringing, you know, what it would take, and and then there was a big breakthrough, which was that, you know, Dr. Marshall was able to corral a number of folks from the facility to come up to Massachusetts and attend a 10 day retreat. And at that point, I thought, okay, they're serious. You know, at that point, I had to, you know, sort of spill the beans to the to the, you know, the, my mentors, you know, Rick Crutcher and Bruce Stewart about who had already been, you know, been doing prison outreach and conducting courses within facilities. And instead, okay, you know, they're these folks come in, and they want to, they want to retreat, and they're coming to fit. And so we were that much closer to because that was one of the prerequisites that that the people who had a decision making authority in the facility needed to come and sit attend a retreat in order to understand what our setup was going to be inside the facility because we were basically setting up a completely separate program that was completely separate from the general population, physically and residentially and so. So yeah, so they came, and then we went down there and and inspected the site, which was the gymnasium and after a few more hiccups, which was par for the course. About six months later, the first retreat happened. And yeah, Rick Crutcher, who was at that time, the teacher for the Center in Washington, who had been very involved instrumental in the collection of courses there. Bruce Stewart and myself, we went and served the course in Alabama for 10 days. And it was, it was an incredible experience.
Host 1:23:47
I mean, just to go on your experience, then of conducting that course, is captured in Jenny Phillips documentary, The Donald brothers, which I think many people that have tuned in this far have probably seen and are familiar with. And so the fact that this course happened, and some of the things that are in the dollar brothers, I don't think we have to go over here because that's already out in media and encourage people to check that out who haven't seen it. But I guess if you could just add some color to it, some behind the scenes, some personal reflections in our transformations, things that left a lasting mark, just aside from the main contours of the story, which people might know because of the movie. What are some things you'd add to it?
Jonathan Crowley 1:24:26
Yeah, so yeah, gosh, there's a lot to say about about that experience. The film really does an incredible job of capturing what it was what it felt like to Rick and Bruce and I. And, you know, at the same time, I want to underscore the fact that I went into those into that experience, really quite racially naive about my own identity as a privileged white man and under Standing really fully the context of oppression that leads to the kind of incarceration that's happening in places like Alabama, I went there, I went in really with a lot of ideals, I, you know, in terms of the capacity to transform lives, and, and so I think that those, those experiences in Alabama really began a process for me where I both could appreciate aspects of the practice that enabled us, you know, me as a white man to, to bridge those differences to bridge those gaps. And, you know, there was, you know, one of the things that I think was very profound for the inmates just was the fact that these three white guys came in, and were essentially, you know, cooking and cleaning 24/7 after, you know, while so that they could meditate and have this profound experience, and, and then at the same time, we were meditating, you know, 10 to 12 hours a day with them. So, you know, they, they're there, there was just such a, an amazing level of gratitude and connection. And between us, that was, you know, it was just really quite amazing. It was really quite amazing for me to see. And I, and in some ways, some of the, you know, Gregory says, you know, in his in his 10 day course, it's sort of a famous thing, he says, you know, the breath isn't white, it's not black, it's not Chinese, it's not Russian sensations are not white and black and Chinese and Russian, you know, and, you know, I felt on some level, I was experiencing that, you know, on the retreat, sitting, you know, hour after hour after hour, you know, with folks who were under educated, underserved. And in some cases, wrongly accused, you know, inside the facility, and, and yet, at the same time, I was also naive to the very, you know, difference, the differences and the different understanding of my own internalized dominance, you know, their internalized oppression, their institutionalization, there were so many dynamics that I was not that I was not aware of, that were also I think, an operation, but it was nonetheless a very profoundly fulfilling experience. I remember thinking at the time, you know, that this was happening, that I would, you know, remember this on my deathbed, as one of the most profound experiences of my life, you know, just offering this to that population, and it was a real hellhole. I mean, it wasn't really, gosh, I mean, it was just, it was, you know, if anyone's seen Shawshank Redemption, it was that kind of environment, it was just, just, yeah, a really dark place. And it was just amazing to see. us bring in practice that brought light to, to these men. And, and I'll never forget, you know, we went there, you know, in January of 2002. And then we came back six months later in, well, maybe five months later in May. And it was the gymnasium, right? So, you know, everything had been taken down. And it was reverted to an A gymnasium. And then we were coming back and it was being reset up. And I walked into that gymnasium six months later. And I and I, and I remember feeling a sense of comfort, and like, just like a sense of familiarity, like I was at a Dharma Center as I walked into that gym, and it was so profound to feel that level of that, that we had somehow brought the kind of the the safety of her vibration of a retreat center into a place like that. was so moving to me. Yeah, it's just profoundly moving to me. So, yeah, and then. Yeah. And then, at some point, I, you know, those of us who were involved early on, we need to, you know, we felt like we needed to step away from the program in order to let other ATS conduct and that that because we had formed some very deep bonds with the guys and that also came out in in us in a kind of companion book, called Letters from the dumb brothers, which was their experiences, writing about their retreat. It's and so, you know, yeah, I after that I, I again sort of took a break from that work. But in fact, I ended up conducting the last retreat that was held there in 2020, just before COVID, shut everything down. And the facility was being transformed into a, I think, a psychiatric correctional facility. So that the program is no longer there after 17 years. But it was an amazing experience to go back after 17 years, and have another whole experience there.
Host 1:30:41
Yeah, that's, that's great to get those behind the scenes and real, the real, emotional impact you had and being able to deliver that. One thing I do want to ask about, you mentioned your naivete at the time of coming, some of the racial discrimination and racial structures as you were delivering it, as well as the impact of how it felt having three white men completely caring for supporting and joining a black population. On the other hand, another way to look at it that some African American meditators have seen and most notably, Victoria Robertson on on our podcast a couple of years ago, she's a former at as well African American. And she described in terms of watching the video of that she described a sense of, of discomfort and hesitation in seeing a video Well, two things one is, is a video of portraying white teachers that are giving some kind of instruction to incarcerated black men on one hand, and then on the other hand, noting that when outreach was being done to show African Americans practicing meditation, the only thing that existed was African Americans who are behind prison, and that that's a, an imagery that hits deep and can be traumatic to have. And so she describes from being an African American practitioner, viewing white teachers and meditators showing other white teachers and meditators primarily a video of white people teaching black meditators and just the whole discomfort that was around that, given the history and, and where it landed with them. And so I, I'm not saying this as a, as, as an either or, or or disputing what you're saying, there can certainly be contrasts in which both are true or many things are true at once. But more a reflection of what you think of that reaction. We should also say this is the reaction of one person. It, it certainly could be the reaction of more people in the community, we did have another African American meditator that came on the podcast and said that he started meditating in the blanket tradition because of dharma brothers. And so, you know, people certainly take it with different impressions. But the way Victoria took it in the way that that other people that other black meditators similarly could take it, is that kind of discomfort. So I don't say that in any way to confront or dispute what you're saying, which is really valuable and lovely in itself, but offering up this kind of side by side contrast of another way that it's that it could be viewed and that it's been viewed. And just your thoughts on that.
Jonathan Crowley 1:33:30
I would agree with Victoria. I mean, I think that the way that my racial naivete manifested was, in fact, going in there. And I'll just speak for myself, you know, really, in some ways, with a with a very typical white savior mentality. And, you know, I think, in many ways, I grew up with those kinds of images and just stereotype stereotypical roles that, you know, in terms of even my understanding of how oppression works in society. And, you know, at that time, you know, only saw that that way, right, I didn't, I was not perceiving the necessity for me to look at my own conditioning as a white male, and I'm looking at the inherent privilege of that, the dominance of that. And so I would fully agree, and I think it's a both and in the sense that there was benefit, you know, and there continues to be benefit, I think, from students across the board, you know, from from all races, you know, seeing that film being inspired by it. I think it speaks to something that's also universal, but I think the key here is that those you Universal pieces should not at all, in any way, deny the particulars around identity around oppression and how it operates. And I think, you know, I was fully caught up in, in in that naivete, and that lack of awareness. And you know, there, to be honest, as you know, there's parts of the film where I actually I cringe now looking at myself in terms of what I'm articulating in the film. And, and because I see that, I see that unexamined whiteness in operation, you know, so, I see both sides of it, and I see and the portrayal, you know, yeah, the, you know, the, the film portraying African Americans, incarcerate African Americans, as our only, you know, portrayal of, of, you know, domestic, you know, underrepresented mythic races in this country, you know, attending courses is, is, you know, it's stereotypical, you know, and it's, it's not it's, it's not representational, and it's not in it. And and I think it continues to reinforce, you know, those those roles and those optics around that and without it being examined.
Host 1:36:31
Yeah, right. And I think that in her interview, Victoria also mentioned how she went to center management and senior teachers and express this pain and had ideas and plans for other forms of outreach that could be done to depict that black meditators and show the power and the benefit of meditation in in African American communities. And she describes a certain kind of reticence to that, and not just a reticence, but even a pointing to the film into the project of saying, well, Haven't we already done that isn't isn't this already here. And just simply hearing and understanding the pain that comes from from some sectors, of course, because these these things aren't monolithic, but certainly from some individuals voicing out their discomfort and individuals within the organization mentioning that this, this on its own was uncomfortable, this was depicting something that was not filled to be helpful in expanding beyond a white audience. And that it felt like it was more from the way she described it, it felt like it was more of a tool that was being used to impress other white people that, look, it can even It could even go here, it could even reach these people. And so can you imagine how powerful it is and what it can do to reform the country and other kinds of problems. And so and so I think the pain from her side was also in her growing role of responsibility as a teacher at that point, not having the capacity to be able to bring in these teachings and what she would feel would be a more appropriate way to her community.
Jonathan Crowley 1:38:01
Yeah, I and I fully agree with that. I, you know, I think that, you know, in, in lieu of the organization, looking at some of the inequities, racial inequities in the organization, then, you know, then this, this is this kind of this sort of, on the surface, you might say, you know, sort of charitable service was really in some ways, reinforcing the very same structures of oppression that exist in the world. Right. And, and, you know, that's, that's more clear to me now. But only because I underwent a process of really examining my whiteness and my conditioning as a as a white male and looking at, you know, educating myself around how oppression operates. And, you know, trying to understand from the lived experiences of folks who don't look like me, like what, what is, what is this? Yeah, how does this land really, and so, I, I do fully agree that that it perpetuates, you know, typical white dominant stereotypes around, you know, you know, just that that white savior mentality of we're going to fix this this way, rather than examining the conditioning and the structures in society and how, as white people, we play a role in perpetuating those structures by not examining our whiteness. And so you know, definitely the experience is there, didn't I Don't, don't, don't, didn't lead directly to that there were other influences in my life that led to doing that work. But then when I began to, and it was, you know, again, it was another level of introspection that actually was as profound I think, as receiving the Dhamma. As when I began to undertake extend, you know, sort of extended anti racism training and looking at reading and looking at the, the conditioning as I, as a white male, I have inherited and continue to perpetuate, and it was eye opening for me in a way that was as profound as sitting some of my first and take your pieces. And, and, you know, I think, at some point, I began to then look at the organization, because the organization, you know, continued to say, Well, okay, well, how come we're not, you know, how come this is not happening in African American communities? And how do we do African American outreach? And, and, and I could see that, you know, well, there's, you know, I mean, Victoria was a standalone. I mean, she was a senior assistant teacher, but she was an exception, right, to the rule of this, of, of an African American, you know, being appointed into a senior leadership role in the organization, at the time. And, and so, you know, I think I think, you know, it was around, it was, I forget, when it began to happen, I think it was in the year around 2014. In 2015, I began to see that, you know, that the work that I had begun to do, you know, looking at, you know, white patterns and micro aggressions and implicit bias, you know, within myself, I needed to see how that was playing out in the organization. And that, you know, as I, you know, began to look at it was, it was confusing at first I thought, Okay, well, wait a second, you know, the, the tradition levels, the playing field, because it doesn't charge for courses. So, you know, but again, the question of, okay, who gets who, who has access? Right? And, and it seems like, you know, that access is certainly facilitated by being on a donation basis. But, but then why why didn't we have more assistant teachers of color on the Dyess? Why didn't you know, why doesn't you know, your average African American or Latino who's coming to sit, of course, see someone who looks like them on the Dyess and why was, you know, the diversity of the tradition. You know, there was a lot of diversity in terms of, you know, Asian, the Asian communities and, you know, coming to sit, but you and they were, you could, I could see, you know, over the, over the time that I was in the organization, I could see that they weren't being given appointments, you know, as a TEs, assistant teachers, or senior assistant teachers, or in some cases, 40s, you know, for teachers. And the same thing wasn't happening, you know, with the, you know, in the Latino or African American community. And as I began to, you know, look at that more carefully, I realized, okay, there are actually inequities within the organization that I, that I needed to. I needed to articulate I needed to articulate to myself and then I needed to articulate to, because this point, I was an assistant teacher, and was really critically looking at. Yeah, how whiteness was manifesting in the tradition.
Host 1:44:15
And it's so fascinating some of these things that we're breaking down, because if you just if you just go back and look at that, Donaldson prison and the company dharma brothers, it's like, there are these parallel arguments that both work within their own frame of argumentation and and they're somewhat maybe completely paradoxical and contradictory. And yet, to really understand this issue, you kind of have to have the maturity to be able to hold both of these views at the same time and start to dissect them whether to just rush to defend one or debunk the other. For example, I just hearing the things that you said there's there's there's very opposing views. I could put side by side that you have, and you've supported both of them. Someone could call you out for being hypocritical, but I don't think that's the case. I think it's that Both of these are operating somewhere simultaneous one of those views is that the breath is not black, it's not white, it's not Russian, it's not Chinese, its breath is breath, human is human. And this is a beautiful, profound truth, which is getting at the core of the Mind Body relationship, it's moving outside of identity, not just identity in terms of, of race, or nationality, or caste, or whatnot, but identity of older young man, woman, or I'm, or even emotional identities of, I'm not the kind of person who can, or I am the kind of person who likes to etc. I mean, it's really ripping off this whole veneer of identity. And that ripping off of identity can also lead to confusions with racism not existing, because you could say, well, if I if identity and ego don't don't exist, how can racism exists, that's, that's a whole other Pandora's box to open, which I'm not going there. But to just stay on moment, we're going there. Actually, another another episode, this one's winding to close but, but on that particular topic, you know, this is like, this is a profound truth that you are, you are practicing something which is meant to transcend these issues of identity and, and not just transcend identity, but bring enormous benefit. And I don't think anyone could look at the outcome of this course and hear from the prisoners themselves on the documentary or in the book, and think that they did not benefit tremendously on a human level from this course taking place. And these are all beautiful things which which not just in some ways transcend these divisions of race, but offer a promise into a new place, we can go with them. Yet. On the other hand, you talk about the, the the optics of as the optics, not just because it happened, which is one thing, but the fact that a feature film was made about it. And then the feature film was used in certain ways. So they so optics is really the correct word of this kind of, of having white people in positions of power. And black, the the black prisoners who are benefiting the black meditators who are benefiting are incarcerated in prison. And, and they are in a position of more or less passively receiving and being grateful to the white teachers this, this is and not putting people of color are in positions where they're also decision makers and carrying this out. And, you know, this is the the classic Hollywood trope of anytime you want to talk about a non white world, you need to have a white figure in the middle of it when you need to have a white protagonist. They're not going to buy it if the protagonist, effecting the change the agent of change is is not is a person of color themselves. And so this is fitting into that whole trope. It's even me even going back further if you really want to go there. It's fitting into the European conquest of the world. In the form of Christian missionaries, and legitimately feeling we are bringing them civilization we are bringing them salvation we are bringing the truth that we have that they have been to these humans have been denied. And we are we are showing them this light. It's there's some connection there to make. It's very uncomfortable. And it also doesn't completely stand because the the prisoners themselves at the end talk about the enormous benefit they get. But it does harken back to this and if you want to stay with the Glencoe motif, it reminds me of speaking to Jaga, who is is a noted meditation teacher, a monk from Canada formally going to teacher. I remember at one point him telling me that he accompanied a I don't know if Goenka himself was leading it or if it was just senior tension teachers within the Quaker tradition. I don't remember that part. But they were going it was one of the very first visits to Sri Lanka. And they turned to Jaga and says he's a layperson at that time and said, and just I don't remember who this was a senior teacher or I think it might have been someone very close to going at the time, said something with his joy. We're I don't remember the exact words if it's something like we are finally bringing them this light of liberation to their land. And that was the moment that who Jagger I left the organization never looked back he was horrified and ashamed to hear that they were going to a country that had been Buddhists for and have their own traditions for countless years. And just and these were from even though these these were Indian saying that he felt like this, this horrible, horrible kind of overtone of colonialism that was that was bringing light to the natives in that way. And so these might be kind of extreme examples to make and I'm not I'm not making these examples I'm not fighting. I'm not not trying to make a battle on the Hill of these examples because they don't stand they're not. They're not really parallel to what you were doing but they are an extension of that they are I think they do have to be said they do have to be held. And and this fits with the Glencoe movement it fits with with With white people in positions of power and privilege as well, that you have this incident where and again, I should I keep having emphasize, it's not just the the incident alone, which would be another thing. It's the way the incident was then put into book and documentary form and the way that book and documentary was then utilized. That's what made it bigger than it was. And there's a way that it's fascinating to see where these two hold these two things side by side and try to make sense of them, that you're doing something which is transcending race is transcending racism is providing tangible benefit to the people that are undergoing it, who want it, who are calling out for it, who are grateful for it, benefiting from it. And, and it's showing a possible way forward for humanity and for some of the social problems that we're facing. And yet, on the other hand, is also being perceived and having connotations that are quite uncomfortable. And so, one is not looking to prove a point of one argument versus the other. But just to hold them both there. And I don't know how you make sense out of them, rather, rather than just to acknowledge that they exist on some form.
Jonathan Crowley 1:51:10
Yeah, I think holding them both, is really actually important. And there's a lot that, you know, there's a lot of polarities that you're holding together, I think, and you're doing it in a space of that's, there's a lot of gray area and nuance. And, and, but I want to one thing I wanted to sort of go back to is So, you know, describing that, you know, that experience of sitting in Alabama with the inmates and feeling, you know, this just visceral connection, you know, this vibe, you might even say, vibrational connection and safety, you know, in terms of all of us meditating together in the same room, and doing this work together, and experiencing the benefit. And so I yeah, I there's no way that I can deny that sort of, you might say universal or, you know, bridge bridging experience that was going on. And the particulars are also still there, the particulars of the, you know, racial structures that were in play there. The, the biases, the discrimination, that was also all there at the same time. So, you know, I remember, you know, I mentioned earlier like this, this, you know, grandkids, quoting, you know, yeah, the breath isn't black, the breath isn't white. And thinking, oh, yeah, that's the universal, that's the universal framework here. Right. But I have a very different sense of that now. Because now I understand I, you know, I understand structural racism as as intergenerational that there is, you know, trauma, racialized trauma that is embedded in both black in black and brown and white bodies, all together. Right. And I'm, I'm thinking of, you know, a book I read, called, my grandmother's hands, you know, which is about, you know, in the subtitle of racialized trauma and the pathway to mending hearts and minds. And it's, it's looking at the effects of, you know, generations of oppression of racism, structural racism, and how that has affected our bodies. So now, I would say that, yeah, even our, even our breaths, and our our sensations are conditioned by this level of trauma. And, you know, that also has to be addressed. You know, without generalizing, you know, I think that folks of color who come to retreats are, are are processing at another level, when they come to a retreat, and particularly if there is not a teacher of color on the Dyess who can, you know, understand some of the experiences. I mean, you know, I think that there, there are folks who are processing everyday racism, folks of color, who are processing everyday racism when they come to their retreats. Right. And to say that, that wasn't happening with these with the inmates in Alabama or any inmates, you know, in, you know, would be just completely naive, right. But I think it's not just the naivety that I had, or that, you know, my colleagues had been going in there as white folks delivering this program. It was a naivete, and a bias of the whole organization as a whole in terms of Let me know how how folks of color can yes, they can access the 10 day retreats, but they will, the the pathways to assuming positions of responsibility or leadership precede leadership to becoming an assistant teacher, which is, you know, really, you know, the leadership entity in the organization, whether you're just an assistant teacher, a Senior Assistant teacher, or a full teacher, those are the those are the, those are the positions of leadership. And so the fact that, you know, I, what I began to see, okay, you know, what are the barriers here to, you know, for, you know, for a person of color to, after sitting a retreat, then to, to take the same pathway that I took, as a privileged white man, you know, I was able to take enormous amounts of time off to do these retreats. Well, that's, you know, that's, you know, that's completely reflective of the privilege I have, you know, you know, not only economically but racially, right. And so, um, you know, for, I think that, you know, again, I miss it, how do I want to say this, like, I think, well, just going back to, you know, Victoria's example, I think she was at that time and exception. There weren't many African Americans being appointed to be assistant teachers that time. And why was that the case? You know, that was what I was asking? Well, you know, the reality is to become an assistant teacher, you have to sit, you know, many, many, many 10 day courses, and many long retreats, right, 30 days, 4520 days, 30 days, 45 days, and then you also have to put in the time of service, you know, so that you understand what's going on, you know, so all those things, and, you know, add up to a lot of, let's just say, socio economic time, right. And if you look at the wealth disparities in the United States, you know, people of color have, on average, you know, 1/10, of the wealth of, of white folks. So, so, so those, you know, those are the societal, racial barriers, right? But then, you know, at some point, you know, you, you have to look at your organization say, Okay, well, how do we then provide access? You know, how do if we really, if we really want to impact Latino and African American communities, domestic, you know, communities of color in this country, then then we have to have leaders, you know, who are made up of those identities to do that. It can't be, again, white folk going into those communities and saying, Oh, here's this great technique, because that's just the same thing that I did going to Alabama. Right. And so, you know, I think, what I, you know, and I was really, you know, I listened to your interview with Mike Ford. And I was really interested in that, because, by that time, you know, some of the senators were bringing in anti racism training. And, but I, you know, that I remember, I even the question for me was, how do we, how do we create alternative tracks or tracks so that folks who have color who can not necessarily give all that amount of time can still take positions of responsibility and leadership in the organization in order to represent their communities? And I still don't, you know, I the, the response, has, you know, since been since, you know, Victoria was an assistant teacher, and the tradition has been to now put on Black Heritage courses. And, and that is actually a big accomplishment, because when she was an assistant teacher, that was denied at the very senior levels of leadership. And not only that, but you know, North American assistant teachers tried to stop it from happening elsewhere. So, you know, going to GE conducted the first African heritage course in, in India, and, you know, but there was a lot of protests from senior leadership here in this country for that happening. And, you know, I just think that that again, is It's, it's eminent emblematic of this notion, the sort of notions of sort of universal truths or universal values kind of superseding the need to attend to the particulars, you know, and not to dismiss the particulars of, of what is going to allow for more access. And so, you know, now that the the the responses to, you know, to do more courses with, you know, Black Heritage courses, but I don't know that that's necessarily going to produce any more assistant teachers, unless the organization implements, other other functions that, you know, bridge those inequity inequities, you know, and, and bridge and create more inclusion. So, there's a lot of stuff that can happen on an organizational level, you know, just number one, just tracking, tracking demographics, you know, in the organization. So, we don't, we don't, we don't the organization does not track, as far as I still know, any racial demographic information of its participants. So for me, the question is, well, if that's the case, how can they communicate to those populations? Right? How can they, how can they just do any kind of surveying of those populations experience of coming to the retreat centers, and that's a that's a huge gap. That's a huge gap of missing information. But then, you know, another, I think piece is you know, preparing white assistant teachers and senior assistant teachers and teachers about the context of, of what people of color experience every day in navigating a white world, and that that's actually happening when they come to our retreat centers. So educating, you know, the primarily white leadership, to their their own bias and conditioning around being white and what they're not seeing, in terms of the lived experiences of students of color who come to the retreats. I think that's a really huge piece, I think that's beginning to happen, but needs to happen in a much more sanctioned way. And when it began to happen, it was also dismissed and minimized. But I think there is momentum gaining now, from what I understand with affinity groups, and that are learning together and coming to understand how things can potentially change. So, you know, the other thing is just understanding that socio economically is going to be on average, you know, it's going to be difficult for folks of color, who do not have wealth, to then spend the kinds of time that are requisites to demonstrating that you are that you are willing to be a representative, the organization that you've understood, you know, the practice enough to articulate it, that you've done enough long courses to understand scent, you know, the sensitivities of students undergoing them, so that you can actually guide them through that process. So, if, if it takes so much time, and on average, you know, folks of color have 1/10 of the Wealth Access privilege, and all the other racial barriers that prevent them from even attending attendee or from taking the time to attend a 10 day course. I mean, my feeling is, you know, a person of color who, who rolls up to one of glenkinchie centers or any Dharma Center for that matter, has done twice the work of any white person to get there. And, you know, just in terms of all the statistics and research that's out there around, you know, just, you know, the experience, you know, all all the all the benchmarks, right, I mean, from from really from birth to to grave of all the inequities that that people of color face in terms of education in terms of workplace in terms of supervision in terms of wages in terms of, you know, their proximity to and and an experience of incarceration there. experiences with the criminal justice system. I mean, you name it, you know, starting from, you know, birth, you know, birth data to early, early death. Right? While while while being a person of color, I mean, these are all the barriers that go into why we don't have more Dharma teachers of color. And I speak not speaking also to not just Gregor tradition, I think it's that what's going on there is, is similar to many Dharma organizations. But I think that the, you know, the potential is greater there, because the field has been leveled, at least in terms of you don't have to pay an exorbitant fee to get in, if that makes sense.
Host 2:05:50
And yeah, that's, that's quite a bit there. And I, I know from experience of the before the pandemic, when we took on the series of examining time on race and having a number of guests from different Buddhist and meditative backgrounds. I would venture to say we've rarely received that intensive feedback on other of the 150 shows we've done now, anything comparable to that in both directions, we had meditators coming from, from all backgrounds, people of color, as well as white people just thanking us effusively and so appreciative that we were giving attention to this topic and covering it, and really how it was educating and inspiring people of different backgrounds to think about how to work on this issue and to be conscious of it. And even to this day, I mean, just a couple months ago, these episodes aired years ago, at a meditator, I should say the background because all of this matters a white meditator from England, I think it was telling me that he's listened to some of the this interview with Clyde Ford, probably a dozen times he says every month or two, he listens to it again, because he gets something else out of it, in terms of how meditation can play a role in social justice and racism. And yet, we've also had the other side we've, we've had people that have have written in accusing me personally of wanting to play a race card in order to make this podcast popular, and just try to try to stir up controversy where none exists and warning me that, that I'm incurring very bad karma for this, this greed for popularity, people accusing or then the the age old argument of just that, because there's there's no identity to begin with. There's no ego in Buddhism and in meditation, that there's there simply can't be race. And so you're focusing on something which by definition, can't exist. And I'm very vehement arguments both ways. I mean, I mean, certainly the people that were those that were unhappy that we were taking this topic on at all, were extremely unhappy and voicing it in very aggressive tones of how wrong it was to how wrongheaded and even damaging it was to even begin to approach this. And then just the extraordinary gratitude and inspiration that people felt and that were handling it. So I definitely know just from having touched that on our platform before the what it stirred up and what it has done. We're just getting into this now. And this is probably a good time to start to put a pin in in this conversation that we're having continue. I was, as we were talking more about your work in the prisons, I was going to segue into your role as a teacher which fit into that. But as we started to go deeper into the aspect of prisons, we also went deeper into the aspects of race and racism and that intersection that whole topic and world and so rightly so we we continue down that lane. And that's what this episode will be. So you know, next time we talk well, I'm sure again, we'll we'll continue to revisit these discussions about race and racism, your involvement, your growth, I mean, you mentioned your I don't remember the words used to describe it. But the light bulb going off in terms of the first meditation sitting was comparable to learning about white privilege and structural racism. So certainly that'll be something we return to in society and meditation and Buddhism in the going organization specifically as well as you're taking on the role of teacher not a light topic, you know, what it meant to be a teacher how it felt to administer those duties and to be able to serve on on a much greater level and to take on not just more responsibility but also more agency and how, what you did from the Dyess what you were allowed to do and then how you are able to, to do what you want anyway and to to find a way to reach students and guide them through meditation practice a big part of your story as well as better understanding the experiences in the Glencoe organization and, and everywhere else is going so I think we covered a lot of ground today and some really valuable stuff.
Jonathan Crowley 2:09:53
Yeah, we might have skipped some steps too, but I really appreciate the opportunity and I look forward to continuing the conversation Joe And yeah, in some ways, there's important pieces to put in place to, to understand, you know why this became such an important perspective for me and ultimately why, you know, one of the reasons why I left the organization so I look forward to exploring that with you. And in holding, you know, all the polarities together, you know, I think that's a really important piece to do here, yeah.
Host 2:10:35
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2:13:47
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