Transcript: Episode #177: Sunda Khin, Part 1
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00:03
When Buddha was alive, he said to the Colombia's, now look you kala must be not misled by report or tradition or hearsay. be not misled by proficiency in the collection, nor by reasonable logic, no after reflection on an approval of some theory, no, because it conforms with one's inclination, nor out of respect for the prestige of a teacher, but dilemmas when you know for yourself, these things are unwholesome, these things blameworthy these things, censured by the intelligence, these things when brightness and observe conduce to loss and sort of when indeed do you reject them, but if at any time you know what we are selves, these things are wholesome, they are blameless, they are praised by the intelligent. These things when practice and observe conduce to welfare and happiness, then color matches to having practiced them by their end.
Host 01:14
Many longtime listeners know that our podcast platform was initially focused on interviews about the many spiritual paths that Myanmar offers meditators and monastics. But when the coup hit, we couldn't in good conscience continue to tell those stories, with many monastic sites on fire are occupied by soldiers, and the Burmese people living under the military's Reign of Terror. So we expanded our mission to cover a wider range of post coup Myanmar stories. Still, some guests have a unique insight into both the intersection of the spiritual with the worldly, allowing a deeper understanding of both planes. Today's guest squarely fits in that category, as you will soon hear, let's get to that interview now. I'm really pleased on this episode of insight Myanmar podcast to welcome a very special guest. Sundar Qin who will be talking about her life as well as the life of her father, who was a very important figure in Burmese history who Chen tune we'll be hearing a lot about him and his developments and his influence on the Burmese nation and people and what sukin has been doing in in, in her wake in the wake of her father's legacy. So with that, Sundar, thank you so much for taking the time to join and chat with us.
Sunda Khin 02:37
You're very welcome. Thank you for having me.
Host 02:40
So there's so much in your life as well as your father's life. These are really two biographies to get into, as well as your some of your brothers all have had some some mark on Burmese history as it's passed through these past few decades. But let's get to your father. First. There's many aspects of his life that are that are quite important and quite significant to talk about. Let's first of all, just learn a brief biographical sketch of who he was where he came from, if you can talk about a brief basic biography of your father, and then we'll get into some more detail about some of the more significant parts of his life and his work.
Sunda Khin 03:18
All right, to begin talking about my dad, I, he comes from pure bone, a very middle class family. And he grew up He's the only son and the youngest of a family of about, I think, five. And he, I must say, he's a self made person, because he, when he went to school, he went to school in Cabo. And the schools were not as good for language English as well as other subjects as in Yangon. But he he did pass the matriculation while he did not pass the matriculation there. But he, he found through his cousin, that he could go to Sri Lanka, Ceylon at that time and study at the call. It's called Ananda college. And it is in Colombo, and somehow, he managed to go to study there. And he did. And when he got there, he sat for the matriculation from there, and he stood second in the whole island, and we pass the exam. And he did very well. And then of course, then he came back to to Burma to Yangon. And then he went to after that, soon after that, again, he managed to find a way to get to the United Kingdom and to study law And he went to the, I think it's the law, the inner temple, I think when he was called to, to become a barrister, which he did, and he, he, I think his concentration was in constitutional law, if I remember right, and then he came back to Burma and got married, and it was an arranged marriage in those days. And He then began his work as a lawyer, but then during that time, he was involved in the nationalist movement with the Myanmar National School, which was really the first school that started the, the movement along with other groups. And so, then he, he got involved any did that and at the same time, he was involved in the young men's Buddhist association of Burma, and continued to practice law. Then when the years of the independence, he was called upon to join the independence movement. And he did, but he did not he was not a member of the then group called the AFP, FL. And he but he was on the fringes of it. And then he, he was involved, as far as I know quite a lot with that, and then drawing up the Constitution, but prior to that, before the assassination of General Aung San, and when he was called to be the constitutional advisor, he, he worked, along with general ASAN and they, prior to the well, the independence was, of course, prior to that, I think it was 1919 48. But he, what I remember very clearly was that he would have to go to the Secretariat building, which is right now in downtown Yangon. And they would have these meetings, regular cabinet meetings, and he being the constitutional adviser for the constituent assembly, I think which was required by by England by United Kingdom at that time prior to being being giving us independence. And he barely missed the assassination on that fateful day in July. And he he was supposed to be there, he always there sits on the right hand side of general axon. But he when he was called, went in the people who assassinated General Aung San and the Cabinet members, that jeep was just coming out, and his car was going in, he had gone over and so that is also another very important part of his life. So and then, of course, the, as a legal adviser to the den was just like a Rangoon government I think, I don't know if they were able to control the whole country. I'm not sure about all that. But what I recall was that he was the leftist movement. We had communists in Burma as well the BOMA Communist Party and so forth. And when he was when he had to make a decision, I think or rather the case that came up from the assassinate tears, the people who who saw for instance, who who was behind the assassination of general Hassan, and he was given the death penalty and my father was the one and they used to call him the in Burmese is Dell pure meaning that you are the the the guillotine they will referring to the guillotine, you know where you are beheaded. So, appeal means that when you when you when you do the guillotine you know when you have to let go of that and then and then the the blade or whatever comes and cuts off your head, something like that. So that's a Burmese word. And in the Burmese newspapers, he was very much blind by saying that oh, this is chant tone. is the one who Whew, that was a capital punishment. I think that was the very first one, I think was given to saw. And he was, he was killed. And so that that part was very, very busy part of my father's life as, as those of you know, the members of cabinet knew and all the other members also, and they were never home, they were always, you know, working to meetings, and so forth. So I remember that we grew up with people, household staff who took care of us, because my father was always gone. And my mother who's a homemaker, actually, she then got involved with the Korean insurrection movement. So then, I think it wasn't safe up to insane was, which was about I don't know how many miles, maybe about 10 miles away from count from the celeb Agoda. Right up there. At that time, my mother was involved in the women's amenities or something Association, headed by the Prime Minister's wife and they had to go to insane to take care of the wounded, more or less, because there was lots of fierce fighting going on. And we were not safe. We had to travel with gods. And it was a lot of kidnapping going on at that time. And so those were very turbulent years. For, for my family and myself.
Host 11:48
Yes, yeah, that's, that's, that's quite an introduction. And I know that there's, there's a lot more beyond that to explore, in terms of what your father would go on to do, but just staying for a moment on that period. And also thinking about, you know, your father was a monumental figure in postwar Burmese history. And unlike some of the other monumental figures on song and who knew even they win, someone who grew up obviously, in the colonial era, and came from humble origins, and through hard work and education, progress, and the new opportunities that were available, both educational and professional, was able to make a pathway for himself that just simply had never existed in any previous era of Burmese history. And this was also true of his contemporaries, many of those who had found themselves in different positions doing different actions. And so I'm wondering, I'm just to think of three names right now, these are probably the three biggest names of that period whose influenced were still shaped by Aung song, who knew and they when I'm wondering if you're your father interacting with these three people, if, or perhaps even you yourself as a child, meeting these people or knowing them at some point, are there any indications of their personality or their character or just something that you can glean from a book,
Sunda Khin 13:14
I would like to start with a general own son, I never met him. But I know that my father worked with him. And as I was saying, he was assassinated earlier on. My father was working with him. And then then, of course, he was doing the prior to independence, the the Pinyon Conference, which my father draft, the, the those what, what was the pain loan agreement, and he did that and then General Aung San was assassinated, but all we were close with dough, Doc Ng, on the token G. Well, when I was in school, she was the leader of the Girl Scouts. And I remember only talking to attending, you know, conferences, somewhere around the world or something. And my parents always told me that this is one person to look up to, is look at this woman and how she has achieved and so forth and that was before she became she was given the post of Ambassador and even before that, so I knew her in my capacity as a Girl Guide. From my my school, I attended the the Methodist missionary school. It's called the Methodist English High School. It was that's where I really got my, my education throughout because we then we had a vary, or should I say strict, but not as strict as in the convent schools where I was in the kindergarten and the first second grades, St. John's convent, St. Philomena convent and, and my father decided that it will be best to put us all the whole family there were eight of us in school where it was not focused on religion as much. Because the convent schools where we were we had some Irish nuns as well. They were very strict and of course uniforms and all that, but always the fundraising activities that were not very much enjoyed by my parents and as being a Buddhist. So we were moved to the Methodist school Methodist missionary school and, and although we did have to attend chapel and all that it was not something where they forced it upon us or, you know, religion was, was there. And then I joined the YWCA because they are techniques and it was fun, that we, we grew up with all of those very good teachers and say, was strict, but it was not that where you were being regimented and do anything. So that was so underdog Angie. I knew my parents, of course, knew her and they see each other, but I did meet her as a Girl Guide. And then whenever we have any kind of jamboree or something like that, and the documentary was there, so I knew I did not know her children. And of course, our son CG, we call her susu she was younger, but she attend the same school but then I was already you know, in high school part of it and so she she then of course, her mother was assigned as ambassador, so they left the country so I really didn't know her dog, Kenji very well. Now as you mentioned two other names. General name when generally when yes closely, because his would be a second wife. I think, Katie my mother's I would say cousin in English, but was like yeah, cousin, I would say because her father, leading Doctor surgeon took the baton was related is related to my my mother was related and was her cousin. I think a second cousin or so. A first cousin maybe and then so Katie was my mother's cousin, but we call my mother Auntie so because of the age difference and then, so we knew her and we went to England and all and then she was then she marriage general our general name when and then during the years of the the way the military, what we call the house housekeeping, you know, caretaker government, as they were called. At that time. They were living in the Government House, which I believe now they purchased or whatever on 80 Road and I used to go there, they would send the car pick me up and would go go play Scrabble with with him. And my, my cousin, Mama KD. She, she was she studied in England. She She She studied nursing. And so she was she's very attractive woman. And she's a very characteristic kind of person. We all looked up on our relatives, she's beautiful. She was very intelligent, and she could, you know, talk, she spoke English, of course, fluently and so when I went there, to the house to play Scrabble, I didn't know this one thing of course, general name When did not have the same background as my Katie did and of course myself because I went to your school and all that, and we would play Scrabble. And we would be you would be laying on the floor. So and we would have all these cushions and everything. And then when it came time for him when he didn't know where he said, Well, he needed to be given the term. But so we said no, but the thing is, you have to give up that, you know, turn and so on. And he was very, very much Your military kind of a person. And yet, I noticed that he would always be aware of the those, the household staff mostly were military people. And he would ask them a Monkey D have have they been given lunch yet or things like that he really cared for these people. But I also know that he was one day he might be like this and another day maybe. So I noticed this as a young person. And of course, when Mike he had the the overlap a hospital for the first time that was being built and all headed this committee and so and we went as teenagers, we would go to sell programs, and all the young girls who are most of them are the pretty girls. And I was because I was relative, and I liked doing these things. So we would go there and then general naming would be there. And I'm like at and then they did these things with where they had these raffles. And then if the raffle won, you can win the going sitting at the table with one of the pretty women and my friend Louisa Benson was one of them. And there was a movie star and all these things. And so they that that and I, but I did see his personality being that way. So I used to say to my parents, maybe he has this bipolar, I used to say, oh, no, no, no, he's he's just military man self made and so forth. And he will be doing great things for the country. So that was the caretaker time and then everybody loves the army Number No. And as far as I know, because, you know, there was regimentation, which I later realize what because of that the city was clean, regimentation that every house, bring out a broom, sweep the streets, and so forth. And then they built these restaurants along the strand, and we loved it. You know, many people welcome them. And so things were very good. But then, of course, then we had the, the elections and so on. So the next person, genuinely when General onsen, and did you say oh, no, or, Oh, no, oh, no, definitely, very close with my parents. In fact, as a child, I would go into the compound and Windermere compound. And I spend quite a lot of time there when my mother was helping the news wife, with foreigners and came, you know, visitors who paid call on her no money would help with setting up this and like, there were two or three other wives of the ministers who came but my mother on her own, because she was not a cabinet. My father was not a cabinet member, he was just Attorney General. But we'll do that and, you know, would rely a lot on my father for all these Buddha's things, and particularly when they had the fifth Buddhist center, you know, where we convene this very important, Buddha's the meeting. And so my parents were both involved, but I do know or know very well, very gentle character and always have some talks, he would laugh at me because he would step over these ants and on and I said, Why are you stepping? He said, No, no, all living things, he was like that he lived that kind of life was exactly that way. Very gentle. And I used to think how can you be a prime minister, how can you rule a country, you know, which is that we had insurrection, and then I was thinking to myself, when you are such a, you know, you should be Sangha. And that's how his life was. And he was that way. And I, I went into the compound and I know Tommy, ie his wife and was who was very the opposite, you know, she was straight and this and that, but he was like that. So I did. I did grow up seeing all these things and then do these cultural. They would. And then the minister of culture or which is you mentioned demoing his father was a I think minister of culture when at that time, and they had these cultural visits exchanged from, from overseas and these from China from, from India and all these people, and we go to these shows, and it was really beautiful time the country was going through this, I thought was a very well, I had a very good life anyway, because my school was bleeding. You know, everybody thought of the Methodist English High School as being whenever we have the matriculation exams, the first the person who stood first in the entire country, would be from the Methodist school, and so on. So they were We were very much, you know, engaged in education and very well thought of school. And so, in fact, they have to start afternoon school soon after that, as well, because there were just so many people who wanted to enroll. And so that was that part of it. So I did know that and I, then Andy talking G as being very organized, very disciplined person. And generally when with his highs and lows, that personally I saw, then, of course, oh, no, it's a very gentle, very gentle person. He lived that life. And he brought up his kids like that also, and so forth. But I remember vividly, one time when we had these people, about 10 years into independence, it was a big thing for Britain. So there was a Burma Britain thing, the Houses of Parliament and all that, and my father was, was asked by EU to represent Burma at that time, brilliant thing, and I think he was the deputy leader of the delegation, I'm not quite sure who it was. The leader might have been the Chief Justice thing mall or I don't know, but I do remember I accompanied my parents to, to London, and we sat, you know, with the children of these parliamentary members and so on. And then my mother went into the banquet with Lord Mountbatten, and my father with Lady Mountbatten and all these kinds of things. So, I saw all of that the pomp and the splendor and all this kind of thing. And then I think, before that, or after that, there were these visits from from Britain, the they will bring their children I suppose. And then will I know, as I call him, would ask me to go to the compound into the Prime Minister's residence compound and, and kind of like socialize with these young, you know, members, mean children. And I also I recall very vividly, ono had this long kind of building, but it was like more like a corridor. And the end, he would have the, the Buddha, the altar and everything there. And that's where he would meditate. He wouldn't walk back and forth. We call Xinjian shouting, so he would walk back and forth back, no, that was his territory. And so when these kids were there, myself, too, we would, you know, play around in the garden, and we'd be served tea and all that. We all had the British way, you know, be wearing gloves and everything. And so we would do that. And these kids, of course, to peek into this news long, where he would pray, I guess it's meditation. And we're not allowed in there actually. But well, seeing they were foreigners and all the staff said, Okay, you may go so they would go and they wanted to touch you know, all the shrine, the head of the Buddha image and all and then I remember whose son, I think go on, I think the youngest son would tell me, he would call me by my first name and he was a hey, you can speak English. Go tell them you can't do that. I will say no, don't touch, don't touch it. And then that will come out. And I remember that also. When he was very sweet about the desert, oh, and he said, I'm so glad Molly, you are here. Because you know, these children they did it because they didn't know and so on. So those years I remember I recall knowing all of them closely. They were very good. Yours was unlike what happened in the next you know, decades after that, so that I can recall about those three personalities.
Host 30:06
Yeah, sure. So and then getting back to Aung song, after Burma was able to gain independence, he asked your father to work on the Constitution, that's quite a big responsibility. It's put on the shoulders. So I know that you didn't get to meet angsana, directly you met you were quite friendly, as you mentioned with his widow. But obviously, your father and uncle long must have been close for a long song to rely on Him and trust Him to do that. So what do you remember of your father's impressions of Aung song as a, again, the stuff that the history books don't capture was as a person, what the relationship was, like what came out, and then beyond the relation with hyung song and his songs, personality and, and what he gleaned from that just this process of writing the first constitution of a newly independent country, what was that, like?
Sunda Khin 31:02
I do remember a little bit about my father and my mother, saying that this is a very important time, and he's very important to Burma. And with the tomato, and that we need the tomato, which is like, after the 30 comrades and all which I also Bucha Nyan all now we are by marriage related as well, but boy, nyan 30 comrades and all and but my, I think my father and mother really liked our son as a person, because they felt that he would always say it right, to the point to blunt, you know, he would say, and the only thing that is a bit different from the others who were working for independence were that he could be quite use these abusive words, you know, when he's referring to maybe the Japanese or the Chinese or whoever, and he would speak that way. And my but my, my father said, We need him so much. And then I think, as you were saying, the trust, I think has to do with the fact that my father was also looked upon as a young man with the Buddhist principles, I think, I think I think General ASAN, thought of him that way, because my father was not a politician, he didn't you know, belong to any political party. He was the only one was the young men's Buddhist Association, which was also very active in the nationalist movement, and then also the general answer and seem to trust my father, because at that time to the British was saying that you need a representative Do you know, you know, because we didn't have our own, our own, I don't know what you call it a legal the, all of the most important cases would have to be resolved or settled in Britain. So we still didn't have that capacity. So my father was the constituent assembly, he was the representative, Burma's representative to this assembly, which is an all over powerful umbrella kind of thing. And so, general concern, and that's why, whenever they had the cabinet meetings, in the Secretariat, which is like a kind of a half moon thing, you know, where you, you have two levels of this round thing in general and son sitting in the middle and then my father, the next level down, he is there on the right hand side of general and son, always, you know, as advisor to the then Constituent Assembly and to the then government, I think, so. That I know that, that he was an important person, even we realize that because he was looked upon as the legal because, you know, Burma under the British, and then soon after that when the nationalist movement came and then we had all the various nationalities as we call them, those John's and the gents and the Christians and all wanting their autonomy, kind of I think, and then they realize that we have to be a union, a union of Burma, so I, I remember that was one thing. I projected very strongly by by the leaders at that time that we need it because we had the current insurrection on one end, that was happening. And then then, of course, we had this chance, who were I think, personally, when I was growing up, where I grew up with the children of the first president of Burma socially. So she dies. I grew up with Eugene and yang. And Eugene passed away, it was my colleague, and doing this activist work even firsthand, the young boy is, is now continuing, but So those years, and they felt that they needed to be a union. And so they that that was the first president and of course, talked about blue, and then a woman was Korean. And so I was all we were all very close with, with all of them, as well as these people. Also, personally, and so and I knew more. I was because associate is already old, and, and he was not going to be socially going with us kids. But again, we his wife, was also influence me on the way how she carried things and how she did things. Beautifully. Everything presented no the Shawn food, the way they did this, and I was very, very impressed with her. And we used to go to the president's house to swim, they had an indoor pool, which unfortunately, the army blew up and all that. So it's all gone. So we used to go there as well. So I do know that my father was, was looked upon as, as an advisor by Sophie died. So why do you call himself an anti mahadi We also who took care of us, she was the one that sent the car to took to send me to have my hair, combed and all that kind of thing. So, yes. And, you know, I noticed that it was they were building a very, very young democracy. And I'm so sorry that, you know, all of this crumbled, because the military wanted the power, you know, because I think things were going alright, then, of course, we had our offers problems with the, you know, when we had the breakup of you know, we will always used to say, we used to say even when we were young, don't ever put two or three Burmese together, because you you're going to find out that they will sit there and argue we say like the ties are very quiet, and he won't do that in those days anyway. But the Burmese, they were very spirited, independent, and always wanted to have their own say, and you couldn't agree. So then you can see that it's happening, you know, not only among Burmese who are Burmese when you say Burmese, I mean, who's a Burmese Burman. I'm a Berman I guess about my mother has relatives who were part of the not the Chinese but the non Yes, you know, the, the Muslim Chinese, like that. And then we had those kinds of, and my father my father, of course, can be called a real Berman because his family started in upcountry central Burma, and they had a very bad life. So they got on these big sailing, we call them usually in Burmese, and they all came down to the Delta to find another a better life. And then they became land owners and so on and so on. But I still have relatives up country with a very desolate kind of you know, country and we used to laugh at them and say oh, these people they are bumpkins you know, country bumpkin thing. But then when you look at our Sangha, I realize that like 90% of our well known writers of the in the Buddhist world, and all these foot big car doors all came from that area. Right. And so, you know, we used to say that but so in Burma, we had all this thing and lower Burmese are saying bad things about the upper Burmese as not not Oh sophisticated, and so on. And so we have all these also and in our writings. When I became interested in education, I realized too, that we had a lot of this racist remarks, you know, about, we have proverbs that, then, when Oumou came, he wanted to address those, that's one of the things that we know. And of course, he was into religion. And people were laughing, because he was bailing Sandberg older, so it's like that. But on the other hand, he wanted and I remember that Burma and Thailand, the relations were very strained in the 50s, I think. And even before that, those few years, and Leno sent my father on a goodwill mission to Thailand. And we were invited, and my mother was ill at that time and couldn't go. So I went with my father, as a young girl, and the only place that that was, had a big hotel was a rat Nicholson hotel in Bangkok. And that was a big quarter where we already had the strand, you know, and we had all these department stores to do miles row and company, etc. Bangkok was kind of kind of very quiet and didn't have all the things that we already had, we had the bookstore, smart, and Moghadam, and so on central sports, and so on. And we were, you know, a thriving Asian city. And then when we went over there, it was kind of drop, and so on, and so on. But the one thing I remember very vividly was that we were, we were welcomed, in official way with flowers and everything, and then they had this entry garage. And then when we stopped to get out on in the city, we had the Thai flag and the Bama flag together on the, on these official limousines and then ties that would go by would when the cars was stopped, and we got out, would spit at the Burmese flag amongst like, at that time that the feelings was so bad at that time. So actually, my father went there on a goodwill mission Buddhist mission, he said, we'll put this we only needed like that. We had an audience with the King and everything. I mean, they welcomed us. But the feelings of the people were really very bitter against the Burmese. And so we, you know, had talked to my father and also the other educators, I think, through the ambassadors, that if if we would remove the atrocities of the Burmese, you know, what is what was it 15 century Sunday, where we went, you know, UTI and all this, and then remove that, and say that, you know, that we we are not to project these atrocities, that in time of war, it happened, you know, how, how, how, how bad how evil how bad the Burmese the Burma army at that time, was and it was also, they were told it's all history. So, you know, as a goodwill gesture, would you remove the so I think they did, I don't know exactly, but was kind of successful. And at that time, general naming also would go to play golf, and he was friendly with the, the, the Thai generals and so forth. So there was this and as Chief of Staff, and I think, who can talk to him also, and so forth. I don't know what happened later on. But I do remember that when we were there on official capacity, that was feelings were very, very high and against the Burmese at that time. So I remember that as well.
Host 44:31
Right. And you mentioned the Pentland conference. That's very important in terms of the nationalist movement, independence movement in Burma, where Aung song was able to gather a collection of some ethnicities, I believe it was the the Shan the chin and chin that that signed on and agreed to try a federal democracy for 10 years with the possibility of succession after that. Of course, the Korean famously didn't sign on for that, and the Korean insurrection happened thereafter. But basically Burma has been in a civil war ever since then. And, and so the Finland conference has been really controversial and has been looked at in different ways, according to different times and different perspectives as to what it accomplished and and where it fell short and everything else. So as someone whose father was actively involved in that conference and the aftermath of that conference, because the conference is what allowed on song to then go to England and say, Look, I meet the British demands of singing I, I have a unified aspirations from these these different ethnic minorities. And that was the impetus that allowed for independence. What do you remember of that conference? And your father's role in it? And what how he regarded it at the time and then perhaps over the years, I don't know if his opinion changed, looking back on it.
Sunda Khin 45:56
Yes, I do. Notice my my father, having a lot of discussions with the Shan Shan leaders, I think that was the one of the most difficult part, I think, for the Qur'an. I don't remember I remember Mrs. By mount Chang, who was the first woman I mean, in the cabinet at that time, and she's correct. And so about who and all these figures and all that. But I do think, I think that the Schanz were the most, most difficult to get together, you know, at that time, and to sign away their feudal, you know, the feudal system, or to do away with that, I think, was the most difficult part of getting them together. But they did, finally, but I think, in the Constitution, there is a clause that they had wanted it. In fact, I think that after so many years that they would become I don't I don't know, the Constitution that well. But I think there's a clause and that's what happened. When the there was a problem when we had the, you know, the House of nationalities, and just like the British system, we had the two houses, representatives, and so forth. I remember that was difficult part was the getting the shots together. But then everybody wanted independence. I know that everybody wanted independence. I heard that and they were all saying but to get to agreed to that, because I think there was a time limit to that Britain said, if you you know, you have to get yourself all of us together. And then only you will, you will get independence from us. And I think at that time, was it the Labour Party anyway. So yeah, I remember the the negotiations and my father found it very difficult with the Shan leaders, because they wanted out at that time. I mean, I don't know what they were asking for autonomy or something. So then they all then signed on to make it a federal union. And I think that then then they hastily signed it. And I remember one thing my father used to smoke cigars. And then he was still smoking a cigar at that time. But then, finally he after that, he gave up and he told all of us that nobody you know, smoking is very bad after he'd been smoking all his life in Coronavirus and the pipe and everything so, but that time I think I'm I think my mother has said that Oh, Palin conferences good because he gave up a cigar maybe. Something like that. But I don't know too much about that. All I know is what what I heard about the difficulty with the shots, I never heard anything, them saying anything about the chins, but I do know that my parents were very friendly with the chins also do our Samadhi was one and all these other leaders teaching leaders but and then close with the currents to and the shots, but I don't remember the Chin's or the PRs. Very, very much about that. You know, so all I know about the pin loan? Not very much.
Host 49:59
Sure. You Yeah, so your father was very influential in terms of government and the role he played. And there's still quite a bit more to explore there. But another role that he played in the country and in the development going forward, was with Buddhism. And there's many stories to tell there in terms of how the influence he played within Burmese Buddhism at the time. And these are really the golden years of Burmese Buddhism in the 1950s. And some of the monks that were coming across them, before we get into understanding what he did exactly in a Buddhist context, I want to understand his Buddhist faith. And so if you can share a bit about how has Buddhist faith manifested, I'm sure there's the you know, traditional Burmese Buddhist kind of home life and rituals and holidays and, and such and customs. I'm sure that that he probably followed those. But then beyond that, this was a time of where lay meditation practice was really taking off. And many people were discovering that they could engage in a Buddhist practice that wasn't, wasn't simply honoring monks or listening to monks or giving the monks but they could actually cut right into the core of the practice by going into meditation themselves was, which wasn't really available in Myanmar, really anywhere in the world, just a decade or two prior. So this was really a new kind of environment to be able to engage in a Buddhist practice, unlike what had happened before and your father was living through those years, he was brought up in the colonial period, he passed through the nationalist period and why MBA, as you mentioned, and the and, and world war two and then went on to be a leading figure in government in these 1950s golden years where these teachings really took off. So what can you tell us about your father's Buddha's life, Buddha's faith, Buddhist practice, how did it manifest for him as as a Buddhist practitioner?
Sunda Khin 51:55
The very first thing was that his his parents, his father, and mother, he was young, the youngest and only boy. And he from young, he had the spirit of giving and helping his mom, his mother told me that we were seven years of age and they had to row across a pond or lake to go to the market. And he would accompany the, the one member who was in the house, who would go shopping, who would go marketing every day, so so he would go do that before school, he would go and he would bring back. And so he was very much looked upon as a good, you know, boy, and then he did on Buddhists things, but I think his years have been looking really into this religion might have been his years in Sri Lanka as well. Another college, you know, some Buddhist scholars, we didn't have anything in Burma that, you know, we had the monasteries, and, and then when they were young as he did when he was young, instead of kindergarten, they would go to the, to the monastery, you know, monks would bring them up, those were the monastic schools, it's loosely woven. So he did have that. And then, of course, his own family. And then when he went to Sri Lanka, and he was in the Honors College, and so forth, and he, he quite believed in it. And as a way of life, he used to tell us, you know, Buddhism, it's and and he used to tell us, you know, what, religion in a way, because we were, we were studying the 100 year war, and all that, you know, in history in school, and so forth. And he said, This is the religion in which we never fought a war a while he's, and then of course, later on, we know that in Sri Lanka, and all that, but But those days, he said, This is the only religion in the world which was never fought, and will as we later on, we among our, you know, siblings, we use Ha, ha. That's what he said. But you know, look now anyway, so I think going back to that, I think Sri Lanka had a lot of, and he had a lot of ties. I remember as we were growing up, and I do recall, too, that when we, we, the hat the Tooth Relic over and the Sri Lankan government was very gracious to allow us to, for people to to pay their respects at the tooth, the Buddha's tooth from candy. So my father and my mother myself, including I will second we went on the, on the British Are we went by see on one of these baby lines Leicestershire was to share. I don't know which one was it that will when it was I think like a three day thing to Colombo. And then taking the same I think another baby line shipped back, we we brought the Tooth Relic and my father again, I think he was deputy maybe of probably at that time, I think the Chief Justice thing now I remember this with a mouth very strict and very grim. And, you know, he sees, we wouldn't dare, you know, run around in front of him, I remember even on the boat, and my father, but my father, of course, being the younger person, he was always the one who was doing this and that and so forth. So then we went and candy, they had this big thing, you know, with the elephants and all that and then they sent these dramas as well, the candy and dancers and drummers along to with the boat to to come. I don't know how long maybe a week or so that the Tooth Relic was, was there for people to come in and pay their respects to that, I remember that my father was very pleased that he could go back and to his home where you know, whap and all this and so on. And so that was one of the things that I remember and of course, my father was then he was the Secretary General at the Buddha Sasana Council, I think, which was maybe a little later on. And a general secretary they call it the in my mind brother after when my father came back out from jail after one month unchoose he too, did that but was assigned as he took that position as with the Buddha Sasana council. So we did that and then the next and of course during all this time, I know that he was really deeply into Buddhism as a way of life because that's what he taught us he said you know, you don't have to go to any kind of a Buddhist places to bar or anywhere to go and pray in front and just recite all these that you don't even know what it is you are reciting. I would like you all to know the essence of Buddhism. So he had judo for us and I think he may have passed away but he was a leading in his own area somewhere Come on, are you aware I don't remember and every day we had lessons with him i Burmese lessons. He was a tutor, but then when he first come to the house and he comes we have to fold ends together because this was lost you know ties kept this on but we had lost this customer folded hands and greeting people we only do that to the monks but in this case you know whenever he came who came on G his name was he would come and then we would have to do that and all sit around and and we do our lessons tuition or something and he would also recite when when we wish him well of course Burmese people say Ming Alaba but we have to say Beauvoir to taba Megillah so whatever mela it has a much more that that's how Megalon came from. So we always would have to put her folded ends. And so my father made sure that even he was busy and my mother, they had us to be brought up, you know, with with understanding. And I of course, being the oldest, I would accompany my father on his missions to for instance, he went to India, and I was a teenager, and I would listen to his lectures, even though I didn't really pay attention. I mean, I didn't get most of it. And so it was later on I realized how, how valuable and how important those words. You know, we're at that time, but I just too if somebody asked me, What is Buddhism, I could say very clearly Oh, we have Tera Vaada and Hinayana and so on. And Tina vada is like this, you know, but at least I could do those things because I went and I went with my accompanied my father on these missions where he was invited to, you know these places and I think the highlight Because of his Buddhist, among the missions might have been to the Soviet states at that time, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, the three, the three, and then he came back, very much encouraged that Buddhism existed there. And in fact, later on the monk from, I think, Latvia, Latvia, Estonia, had had to leave the country because of discrimination or something. The two of them left the older monk, the younger monk. And they left and they wandered around, and they ended up in Thailand, and that they wanted to come across to Burma and my father facilitated them to to Burma, invited him. And so and then, and then house them at my mother's monastery, which is on the Shwedagon Pagoda on the first pavilion, you know, there, if you go up the pagoda before you reach the very top pavilion there are, there's one in the middle pavilion, and there, we have monasteries, and you know, little buildings and so on. And my mother, parents had this, this monastery, and but it was one part of the monastery was the monk that my mother had from her hometown from the Tsar. And he was there. So these monks were in the basement, I think and of this, it still exists. Now, I don't know if the government took over what, and so the two of them were there. And then whenever this month, the younger monk went, with the begging bowl, they were being children were teasing, because they were wearing these robes that were not like the policies that we have, they are different, they had these orange robes, and you know, it was mostly very western style thing. And so they will be in sometimes kids will throw things and all and my father was very upset about that. And then then this younger monk, he, he was a pianist, played the piano beautifully. And he had invited this month to come and teach us give us piano lessons as well. At the same time, my mother could, you know, give them the morning meal, sort of the old monk was was there and he couldn't travel very well. And then they will be here to know when they came. So for me these people, this was really not something very, very strange, very. So I know, my father was like, you know that religion, and they are Buddhists, and they escaped from this communist country. And here they are, and so on, and any talk to the religious leaders also, and they all agreed that this is a good thing. And we did that, that's one of the things that I remember my father, good faith doing this. And as we grew up, and we we did know, these two monks, that came, and that was the first time in my life that I while we had geography, but you know, a lot Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, we're not in my mind. I mean, you know, who we are, why we knew Yugoslavia. We didn't know that. And so that I would say would show that my father's deep feeling as a broader, you know, part of that not centered, that. Another thing that he was upset about with my mother was that my mother would also be having the astrologists come over, for instance, and those people who say, you know, we have the site we can hear we can you know, all these things, and my father never believed in it. And he, he laughed, and he said, You know, it's just a waste of time. And he said, Buddhism is not that and you have all these what me online and all I'm doing right now, you know, bro vitiating the deities or the the, the gods or something, the nuts as we call it, the spiritual beings and all that. So my mother didn't actually of course propitiate them because her family didn't do it either. But she was interested because, you know, a lot of people came and said, Oh, you know, this person can tell you what's going to happen. 10 years my father said nobody can tell anybody. Just listen to the Buddha and you But in practice yourself, nobody's gonna, you know, tell you ahead, we don't know. That's why we want to make sure that wherever we are in the next life, that we would, if you want to have a better life or something, you practice and you look into your own mind, or some things like that, but we also heard that, but we didn't pay attention. So my mother, and even she would go to these not boys, you know, these were they have these, these women, or men, men, and they will drink, you know, and then the dance, these are these things that they have it in the each of these little villages or towns outside of Yangon. And my mother would hear and somebody would say, let's go. And then she would like to go, but my father prohibited her from doing that kind of thing, don't even go, he said, How can you say that person is going to be able to have a clearer mind when he or she is drinking, and they dance. And then the people give money. And then they ask questions, and that person supposedly is possessed by the spirit, and the spirit is sprouting up, you know, whatever it is, you ask always my dead husband or things like that. So my mother would secretly go a few times. And my father, if he found out, he was very angry with her, and he told her not to let us do these things as well. So but we didn't take these seriously. Anyway, we went to the Methodist school, and we didn't even think about the we just laughed at these things. And we, we thought it was funny, you know, so that was one of the things. And then of course, whenever he went on these goodwill missions on religious missions, and he was I think, in Nepal, I think is a coronation. I think, of course, I wasn't invited to go just my mother and my father and so on. So my father felt that then the world fellowship of Buddhists. When that happened, he was one of the founders of the world fellowship of Buddhists. And I did meet and knew quite well, Dr. Malala Segura, who also saw Buddhist leader in Sri Lanka, in Ceylon, and he and my father were very good friends, and also from somewhere like in Malaysia, from Penang, because my father felt that there, you know, they, because religion was there earlier on, and it should, you know, be revived. So they represented also from Malaysia, Penang, and very good friends with my father and doing that, and in saying that, the CRO I mentioned Penang, CRO he too, did very well when he did this, you know, when he went, when he went as, as a monk, CRO over there, and in a predominantly Muslim country, he was able to set up this pagoda builders, pagoda, and a temple and all that and bring the, you know, the Malay the the people to, to be Hinayana, Buddhists, you know, I mean, do be Tera Vaada, because they were mostly ancestor worship, you know, the Chinese way, and so forth. So, so those are the things that I saw, and I lived through with my father. And of course, when he went to 1958, when he went to the United States, and he came here with my mother, and then he was, it was quite an honor to represent the five great religions of the world and Buddhism, he represented Buddhism, and there was Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, identity, and something else. I forget the five great religions of the world. And that's why he gave the address to one was in Chicago, and the other one was InStyle. And New Hampshire, I think. This is the book that, in fact, I wish that I could distribute this, this lectures, because they are when I'm reading them. I haven't really studied it, but I should be reading it well, and it's called Buddhism. The religion in the Age of Science, something like that. And the Penang CRO had a reprint, and he sent many copies and he distributed these copies to all the Buddha's places, but there were a lot of typos. It was done in Penang. Hang. And the first one was done by in Sri Lanka by a Kenyan. I think it's called the Buddhist Bible Society or something. So that's, that's something I must do before I die, because it is my mother's wish, she told me that you would like very much for that is this these lectures that are very valuable, and she would like me to, you know, see to the distribution of that, which is something that I, I should address, I haven't had the chance because I have to do other things in my life. And so that's one of the things so, yeah, my father gave us the foundation and the grounding and he also I think, helped shape the lives of quite a lot of people in Burma. And of course, Mr. Going, one of them. To go Ingo was one, just one. We, he wasn't considered really a foreigner because they, they lived in Burma, they they grew up I think he was born in Burma, I forget, but And he, my father met him and I knew him from his visits to the house, he would come and in the tradition of that, he will bring us a lot of sweets and all you know, this is what we do. If we go somewhere, we will take whatever and then so he would bring and was nice, tall ish, handsome person. And then my father told us that oh, you know, because my brother my younger brother also had this. This headaches. What do you call them? The headaches, migraine, migraine headaches, that were not like the regular headaches? I suppose my younger brother have that too. So my father said that when Mr. GLINKA said to him all you know, I've gone so many places. And here in Burma also, I've tried so many things, so much medicine, modern medicine, etc. And that he thought that perhaps he could do this meditation. So I think he he introduced him to Oba kins Meditation Center, I think. And so I I'm not familiar with Uber canes when you're only Mahasi CROs, because that was a fun place to as children, we would go there and we would run around and the CRO was also very nice smiling and, you know, talking to us and all that, that was nice. I didn't like religion way we have to, you know, be far away from the monkey monkey not, can only tell us and we can't say anything back to the monkey, that kind of thing. So I never liked that. But anyway, Uber cans from my friends would tell me that all very strict, you know, you have to breathe in, breathe out and this and that. And I say, oh, no, I don't think I want to do that. So I never did to bumpkins. But my father, then, of course, I heard that Mr. Going God later on. That was long before my father passed away to that, Mr. Going, I think my father, that it was the only way that this migraine left him because of his meditation, and so forth. And so now we know that he has set up so many, and they are, you know, and he's doing such good things for the Buddhist world by you know, by talking about his own experiences and, and what it is and also that Buddhism is not a you know, hocus pocus or, or that, you know, if you pray a lot, you will get this or something. Yes, but those things, I know that some of the good things that my father did and and for the Senate, excuse me, I'm sorry, I wanted to mention that a convening of this, this very important meeting. And so that that was also what he participated in.
Host 1:14:23
So staying on sn Goenka and saggio pukin for a bit have a few questions about that. I know that practitioners in that tradition are listening with on the edge of their seat, I think because this is I mean, this can't really be understated or under emphasized this the the importance of what you're describing here. I mean, you're talking about your your father, in his position, knew a young Indian businessman who was suffering from these migraines and also knew of the great Buddhist teachers that had different programs and methods. Ed's and styles and he was the connector and by, you know serendipity by karma by fate, whatever you want to call it, he your father was in this nexus, where he lit the match that Glencoe would go on to sit the course and then play this major role in the worldwide mindfulness movement. I mean, any listener that is paying attention right now, that is from the Glinka tradition, or even from an offshoot mindfulness tradition that benefited by the herb akin Glinka mission that was then launched after the 1950s Your father was the one that initiated all of this, without him, this connection wouldn't have been made. So this is an incredible moment just to sit on, and consider and reflect the, the incredible importance of of how this came to be. So with that in mind, I'm, I guess my first question, I'm just wondering, I think that those that follow gleichen See, going as a teacher, they know him as an older, mature, well practiced, meditation teacher and meditation practitioner, who has already developed from, you know, the path of how of all of these courses and following all these instructions, but you and your father met him before he ever took a course I mean, indeed, your father was the reason he took a course was the the introduction to that type of teaching. So did you meet Goenka? Before, that first IMC course or in talking to your father? What impressions can you give us about? You know, the premeditation Glinka? What was he like, before he ever sat that course? What do you remember about him personally,
Sunda Khin 1:16:45
I remember him as he's fair skinned, and he was a young, as you say, businessman, and who was very attractive, and then we spoke and, you know, things like that. And he would come to the house and, and my father and my mother welcomed in some Buddhist tradition, and the Burmese way would welcome him and he would bring his gifts of, you know, on a tray of iron, I want to say sweet meats kind of thing, and all and very pleasant. And but I also remember that my father saying to him, you know, we have so many different ways of meditation centers here also, and why don't you try? I don't think my father really knew that. Oh, if you go to Uber alkynes his is the only one that helped you. I don't think there was that teacher said, Why don't you try Uber kins? Because I, I haven't feeling that you because you've concentration or something like that, because this migraine would go away? not scientific, but, you know, why don't you try because at that time, we also had the other meditation centers, as I told you what one for Walmart is very big and very, my mother went to meditate. They're also afterwards that was going on was earlier years and my mother didn't go to bargains, but always went to this one. And I wondered, you know, why didn't go because Oba cans were supposedly, from what I hear very strict. And, and the other meditation over at the other monastery was was, was good, but many of the wives you know, of the cabinet wives and many of my mother's friends went there. And I know also the later years when my mother when I would go and drop her the food they had the food there but they didn't quite like the food, you know, what was given there, what was cooked there. So, we would, you know, bring offer food and we we said we gain merit by bringing food for those people who are meditating so on. So, yes, I am. I was very surprised later on when Mr. Going became a Buddhist leader and that he gained so much from Ooba Cancer Education Center, which I do know my father said, Why don't you try this one? Why don't you try me he didn't insist because he I don't think Daddy never went and sat for any meditation. He never had the time to do it. You know, they were very busy with the years of the new government and you know, all of that so that I remember and Mr. Going very wealthy and all I know because he would come I'm with the driver in the car and all that he would. So that's all I remember very polite and all that later years, much, much later, after my father passed away also this, as I told you by marriage, boy, and I was one of the 30 Comrades, his wife, his wife, became very much, you know, into this, how to, I think, teach meditation through this Mr. Going us method. And in fact, she was one of the teachers of meditation, I think, following this, and I think that may have been also influenced by my mother, to the wife, or boy or nine, and so on. So, there is that connection that was long after my father passed, and then long after, you know, but but then by then Mr. Going because method, a way of meditating, or his meditation took on a life of its own with just opening and you know, people studying actually come teachers for this. And she was one of them.
Host 1:21:20
Did you, you know, as you saw going, because mission starting to grow, were there any Were there moments where you like, pinched yourself, and you were like, my father started all of this, you know, my father is, I mean, obviously, you didn't do start the mission, but you know, your father's set, started maybe as the wrong word, your father's set in motion, what has become a worldwide phenomenon, it has reached Dhamma has reached the Buddhist teachings have reached to places in the world through Blanca, that it's never reached before in human history. And do you ever have a moment where you just pinch yourself and you think, Oh, my father set this all in motion, really, I have
Sunda Khin 1:21:54
to laugh because, you know, all this was going on. And then only recently, in the last 10 years or so, I suppose, when I had this, in my mind the mission of setting up the first Tera Vaada Buddhist temple monastery here in Northern Virginia. And I came in touch with this one monk, and he came here on a visit and long story and then he, he was from the Koba II, Buddhist university, he was a graduate of that as well, Yangon, on he came, and then he was here and so on. And so then we were able to establish this monastery here, register it, and so on in the Commonwealth of Virginia, and all that, and, and so then he started having these these every week, you know, so to keep us to go and do the sermons. And then then when I open one of these books, and all that, and I was looking at it says, Oh, this book is or chant on was the one and so on and so on this of this book, and so on, and so on, and prayer book. And so I said, Oh, I knew my father was, you know, always involved with this. But I said, Oh, my goodness, then every one of these books that I opened, they had my father's name also. And then also, these things that came up and people talk about going God, and people like even my friend, kit, for instance, she was going to go and then she read about it. And she says, Oh, you know, your father, your father was the one who introduced Germans to going and so lately, only, I must admit, I'm thinking oh, yes, yeah, he did do that in all these prayer books and all and people the older and older monks would come for a visit here also, with some of the monks I know by name and so they will look for me and I will see them and I will and we will always go back over and discuss and they will say how much they are indebted to chant on doing his part of it, you know, bringing Buddhism, the real Buddhism as they call it to people, and how much it is needed. Now, when we don't have anything to hang on to they said, now with these things happening in the blink of an eye in front of us, the cool the killings, the everything, and that this is the only thing that we can hang on to you know, and we can't do anything for relatives either. You can only do this for yourself and how you know, so now only in my old age, I do realize the importance and the work, the work that he did for this pattern Asana, and I fully appreciate so much now. And, you know, as I say, I hadn't paid much attention to this, to tell you the truth, because it all happened. While living, you know, Buddhism is a way of life, I go to the temple, I go, here, we have some jewelry at home, we feed the monks, and you know, things like that. So way of life. And so here, you got to look for it, to learn to have to do it. That is why when I set up, help set up this, we don't have money to do it all you need money to do anything anywhere. But we got together, you know, friends of friends, and so and now we have the monastery, it's, it's not near my house anymore, because we couldn't afford to rent or to buy. So it's in Knoxville, which to me is like the end of the world. It's kind of far as drive almost an hour's drive in. I don't know if it's Prince William County with somewhere. So yes, that is one thing I felt that I was able to do, you know, in memory of my parents who had given us this, you know, this grounding, and had helped so many other people. And this is one way that I could do so I helped set up this and I'm still the president of the association. And that's a little thing.
Host 1:26:41
Yeah, I'd like to just ask a couple other questions about this connection between your father played and being able to introduce going to see how God can and I think there's, you know, I also just want to venture I think there's probably a number of dedicated passionate practitioners around the world that have come to learn meditation, through the tradition of Sn Blanca that are listening now, that are probably some of them something in awe and something in just gratitude that, you know, they're learning about this one action role that your father took on, that has delivered the technique to them has delivered this practice to them, this is no small thing and going off more on that interaction and your father's role in that. You mentioned a bit about how familiar you were with SN Galenica, as a young businessman, premeditation coming to your house, and you know, just describing him as a generous jovial fellow bringing some sweets and being charismatic and quite friendly and easy to talk to. After he took his meditation course. Did you meet him after that? Did you meet him? Right after? Did you meet him in the years after? And what changes if you did meet him? Or perhaps if your father was was connected to him and told, relayed the information to you? What changes in his personality and behavior and, and character in such detail? Was there anything discernible? That was that was noticed after he started taking these courses?
Sunda Khin 1:28:10
Yes. I just remember daddy saying that. That Mr. Going, had been cured, you know, he no longer suffering from that he's done very well. And he said to us, look, what can be accomplished and all that's why he always is talking about our, the the religion as in this kind of meditation and thinking as being scientific, you know, he always wants to tell us then, and we always used to think that was like, oh, you know, what is he talking about? That kind of thing. We we just listened because, you know, we, we really don't talk back. But in our household, though, he made sure that we ask these questions if we want. They'll be yelled at or say don't ask or something. So yeah, that was one thing that he said that oh, it's very, so I wondered why? Because I'd heard about kins meditations. And they're very strict, you know, and that people have to be like, you have to stay like, like, meditation centers were retreat, but other retreats where you know, in a big open area, blah, blah, blah. But this was like, you know, being in confinement or something. And I said, Oh, I we thought that this young man, this man Mr. Wonka, he must be really strong. And we will joke by saying Oh, yeah, of course he's not Burmese. That's why he can do it. Because we always say you Put putting three together, we can't get along and we, you know, we're we're happy go lucky people, you know, mostly and we don't do these things kind of thing and so we didn't really take it that serious.
Host 1:30:13
Yeah, that's really interesting. So we've been focusing a bit on your father's relationship to SN Blanca, I want to ask a question about your father's relationship to see as you begin to begin has a similar background to I think, to your father's trajectory as well as some of these other young Bomar leaders at the time are middle aged, but more leaders by this time will be kin came from extremely poor backgrounds and based on the Academic Prowess that he showed, he was at he ended up getting a full ride scholarship to to St. Paul's. And that led the way for him to develop an education which got him as a clerk in the accountant General's office. He was This was mostly staffed by Indian workers at the time pre independence, the Indians didn't really want the Bomar around because they wanted their own kind there and they would they would haze the Indian workers would haze the Burmese to be able to drive them out. And Uber Qin was the only Bomar worker that was able to withstand this hazing and remain as a junior clerk in the office. Then after independence happened in the Indians, Indians left the government and many went back to India and were repatriated there. mobikin was the only Bomar he was a junior clerk, but he was the only Bomar left standing in the office. And so by that account, he was named the account the account in general and then went on to head other departments one time simultaneously heading for departments in the government in the 1950s at that time, and so he was also a key minister in these pivotal 1950s years and and I'm I'm wondering with your your father also involved with the workings of government and some of these key leaders. What relationship did he have formally to begin? How did he work with him as well as informally as a Buddhist practitioner and Uber kin was doing something really quite revolutionary at the time as being a lay person that was trying to offer metta meditation courses, strict meditation courses, in your words, very, you know, very, quite a lot of discipline and instructions. And was was starting to launch this somewhat new initiatives. So as far as your your father goes, in his personal professional relationship with Luba can what can you tell us about that?
Sunda Khin 1:32:32
I don't know. I never met but can bond my father had always taught thought of him as being this disciplined person, and how he he made you know, a self made kind of a person and into, into in religion that he would that he his father was not a monk or you know, some people who had some background like, and he said that he did very well in becoming that kind of a person. And then my father always had big respect for the meditation per se as the answer to your life, you know, where you want to hold your discipline. My father was a very disciplined person also get up at this time you do that and all that kind of thing. So he tried to tell us about that. And okay. Name was always mentioned, my my father and my mother, and they always talking and they always sending their friends to really some meditation center. Yes. They would refer they said, you have to you should go because Birkins and I think it was somewhere out in the suburbs as well. And you're not too far from where we were, I think we were in your meeting. Yeah. EMI, I remember EMI. And at that time, we were living in the Government House, which was the first Burmese person to live there. It was the home of the, of the Chief Justice of Burma was always habited by by by the British people. And it had a huge compound and a beautiful house. It's it's what you would call a mansion now, I guess. And then we had one place, it's a library and all that and then of course, in those years 1950s And so we had to have a barbed wire all around it because of things and all that had gone. We had gotten there Yes, for from the good cars, good cards and we had a big staff place in there. That's where they stayed and so on, so on. But I know that my father had great regard for working I must To be younger than my father, I don't know when my father passed away. He was 82 years of age he passed away in 1988. Before the uprising, he didn't see the you know what happened? Yeah. He didn't see. So he was, yeah, he was born in 1906. So, yeah, but I think, okay, maybe younger than him are, they're the same age, I'm not sure. But I always hear about this working, being vibrant and all that that's why my mind, he may be younger, my younger sister, who, then of course, earlier on, in my years, I left the house to get married very young. And my sister, my younger sister, would remember all this, because when my father would have, after the military released him, he had these Dhammapada classes, you know, at home for relatives and friends. And Dhammapada, he had one teacher calm, and they would would learn that the Mahabharata or at home, and so yeah, but I know I have no connection with Ooba kin, and I don't know, all I know is what, from my parents, and then this to go into as well.
Host 1:36:19
Do you know why your father recommended? Ooba? Can you mentioned that? There were a number of different teachers and senators operating at that time? Do you do you know if he offered going, like different options? And newbiggin? was the one that chosen or? Or was the one that Glinka chose? Or did he specifically say this is the one you should do? How did how did it come across to recommend that tradition particularly?
Sunda Khin 1:36:43
Alright, it's curious, because, you know, as I told you, my mother went for meditation. I mean, she stayed there for weeks at a time, at the mercy place, and Marcy places a big, you know, it's a big compound and excema, ordination hall and all this kind of thing. And mozzie CRO himself, was there and all the time. But he did recommend for one thing, I think, because Oba King was more proficient with the language, maybe English or something, I'm not sure. Then Maha CCRP. You know, so I think that's one thing. And the other thing, too, is, I think, for somebody like Mr. Going, who had gone through everything, as he said to daddy, I've gone to Europe, I've gone to this, I've gone to medical, you know, science, I've gone to this hocus pocus things to and nothing seemed to have worked. So I think my father said that, in his mind that this would be the best fit, I think, because other meditation centers and of course, primarily, with will know and why, Kevin, everybody is going to Marcy, you know, Marcy. Marcy is way of meditation and so on. So I think that may be it because of the decision. And the fact that his was, I don't want to say serious because I am not knocking ma see. Because I don't know much about it to say this. But I think that maybe the reason that they felt that Uber can someone that would, you know, that would be best to guide. GLINKA
Host 1:38:41
and then did your father, you say that he passed away in in the late 80s. That was when Glen blancas mission had taken off by that point, but it certainly wasn't anywhere near what it became. Did your father was he aware in his older age what's going on had gone on to do with that technique and how did he How did he regard that?
Sunda Khin 1:39:04
Yes, he was because I remember he was saying oh look, you know, anything is possible you know and possible. And you can just see going Ah, look at going ah, this man who was not Buddhists even you know, he was in and who was in the Hindi community was, I think bonus family being been businessman and rich. They were leaders of the Hindu you know, community we have in the community and we were very close to the Hindu community because at that time, my father was doing something about the and during it time I'm not eat during Ramadan before Ramadan. And for Eid, how they would take the cows, you know, and slaughter them. And that was, that was me meritorious deed for them sort of thing. So my father had organized one thing with the Hindu community film, where they film these cows that were being, you know, herded off to the slaughterhouse. And they literally had the cows, crying, you see these eyes on that we saw this. And he would show and he said, you know, killing how killing is bad. So, and he worked, I don't know what it is called. But somewhere I wish somebody would look for this with the Hindu community. And that's why I think one of the reasons my father and Mr going again, to meet is because my father is very active within the community, doing things against the not against I shouldn't say that for, for the people who were being, you know, the Muslim, the inheritance laws and their laws, where they married the Burmese women, you know, three, and then leaving them if they don't have a, you know, a boy child and all those things, remember, and how that religion is affecting a lot of people because they were poor people, poor people, given in marriage to the parents, especially in the agricultural community. And so my father for awareness, he worked with the Hindu community to bring about this, this kind of behavior that this religion was bringing to the people and how we have to do the inheritance laws and all that. And I know it had to do something with the legal aspects of it, too. And that's the reason that my father was very close to the Hindu community. That's how he going, I think, met my father is through all these all the work that my father did with the elders of the community there. And so, you know, he was he was not a Buddhist, they had their own Hindu temples, and they did their own things. And, you know, we would also take part in the, the eating part of these festivals, and, you know, we would go and we would take part in it, but we never were, you know, that way with the, with the Islam community, although many friends would bring, give us a lot of bring food and stuff, whenever they have to eat, you know, they bring great big Tiffin carriers were the food to us and all and, and I think those years influence also my parents, in the later years, not eat beef, because they did in the beginning. But then we didn't. And then my father told us that that is one thing. And of course, he told us in the sense that the cows were our friends and you know, how we need them in the agricultural part of it all the farmers and all the kinds of things to tell us so that we won't just be against, you know that, but no, I think with going God, it was through the Hindu community and the awareness my father was doing that he met him. And then Glinka approached him to help him because I think he was at wit's end as to what else to do, as he was getting so you know, sick with this. migraine.
Host 1:43:44
Yeah, I'd like to actually read something that Glencoe wrote in his later years reflecting on this period, and referencing your father he wrote, quote, it was 18 years ago, my physicians in Burma advised me to get myself treated in foreign countries, otherwise, there was a danger of becoming a morphine addict. I was suffering from a severe type of migraines since my childhood, the intensity and frequency of which had increased with the years even the best doctor in Burma had no treatment for it, except that he administered a morphine injection whenever I suffered from an attack which came about every fortnight. This was certainly not a treatment. That is why they warned me against there was a danger of my starting to crave for morphine, not because of the headaches, but because of my gradual addiction to it. On their advice, I made a trip around the world around the world for months together, and was under the treatment of some of the best doctors in Switzerland, Germany, England, the United States and Japan. Yes, but it was all in vain. It proved the sheer waste of time, money and energy, I returned no better. At this stage, my good friend Kalyana Mitra, who Chen Thun who later became a judge on the Supreme Court of the union of Burma and president of the World fellowship of Buddhists guided me to say I do but can I shall always remain grateful to him and shall keep on sharing with him all the merits that accumulate while treading this noble path. So that's something that Lincoln said about your father. How does it feel hearing that?
Sunda Khin 1:45:05
Yeah, it's it's wonderful I feel so good when mother more than my father would be here to hear this because he was always a believer she was the one as a as a hostess in the house when going up would come, you know, in these sweet meats or whatever on these trays I remember then she would then whatever it is that she would send from our garden, maybe poor buyers, or I don't know what but things like that. The exchange of that and my father, my mother would welcome him and, and all that I remember my Mommy would be so you know, pleased and I have such a good feeling to to hear this kind of thing you know about my father, so
Host 1:45:53
it's beautiful. Yeah. Did you ever happen to know Leon, right? No. Leon, right was he was an African American diplomat in 1950s, who was a Christian, but he learned from Ooba can and he was also appointed a teacher when he came back to America. And he was I don't know if you know who Colet but Colet had resisted learning meditation for mobikin or anyone because he was kind of this modern Burmese that had thrown the shackles off of traditional Buddhist experience. And when Leon right was giving a seminar on what he learned from OB GYN in Washington, DC, who called I happened to attend and was amazed that there was this American diplomat who had gained a better understanding of Buddhist practice than he had and that sent who Colet to take a course at IMC and developed his friendship to begin.
Sunda Khin 1:46:48
And okoli the name is very familiar. What what what did he do?
Host 1:46:54
Well, Colet was another one of these figures like all the ones that we're talking about, including your father, that had grown up in colonial Burma had had gone through the nationalist and independence movement and had through you know, come from humble origins and through working hard education and, and taking advantage of new opportunities that weren't there before was able to take on a number of roles. I I know that he was rector of the University of Mandalay. Colet did a number of other things as well. But then, as is the case with others, once he got into meditation, and he was involved in Mahasi, as well as OB GYN. He became I don't know exactly what he did or what his role was, but I know that he was a big supporter of both Mahasi and Rubicon and one of those big names that's out there. He's the young cool also, I mean, Burma such a small world, you know, he's, everyone's related. He's the uncle of Martha Aniki as well.
Sunda Khin 1:47:54
Oh, my thing he Oh, I see think he's uncle. I see. I think he is. I know her there. I don't know her very well, but I do know her. Yes. And the reason maybe I don't know too much is Mandalay. Because the rector of Dr. Towel, and all were when we were growing up, was the rector of Rangoon University, and he wrote many books and folktales of Burma and that that whole family is very well educated and so on. No, nobody is familiar. That's why cool, right.
Host 1:48:28
And then then, of course, Southway take the first president of Burma the Shan but the referenced he was also a practitioner at at IMC and a good friend of OB GYN.
Sunda Khin 1:48:41
Oh, yes. So while he was old, as I remember when he became president, and but the Schanz respected and he was young Sri savoir, and he was very much respected. Also in this many children. We all grew up together. And yeah, but the those names are all, you know, coming back. It's so many years ago, and
Host 1:49:09
I'm sure yeah, it's, yeah, yeah. And so. So we've spent quite a bit of time talking about this, who became going to connection which is quite important, and I'm glad that we we spent the time on it. But this was also a golden age of Buddhism and meditation practice and Myanmar, these 1950s And much of that was spurred on by the Buddhist faith of Avenue which, of course, is as much as he did to open up the practice and and to encourage not just traditional ways of Buddhism, but also more modern. You can call it modern Buddhism, a Protestant Buddhism and the science, the science behind it and the actual meditation, not just the faith part. He did a lot to sponsor different initiatives to take off also That's also controversial. I know that there were Shan Buddhists that felt that their type of Buddhism was was being a bit overwhelmed. There was also the kitchen rebellion started because we knew wanted to make Buddhism a national religion. Yet at the same time, who begins career took off because the way that hooba can started was that there was a government circular that was passed by who knew that was encouraging ministers to be able to have shrines and Buddhist shrines in their public office. And not just shrines, but to hold precepts and even have Dhamma talks, we can took advantage of this and that was the origin of IMC was the the initial Dhamma talks, and then later meditation courses in the weekend, that would happen actually, in the accountant General's office. But in this whole milieu and whole environment, you you don't just have to begin, we've already referenced Mahasi, but you you have this golden age of Burmese meditation oriented monks, you have WebU said ammonia and say it as soon said Mogok said, all these huge names, giant names that have have since established their traditions that still exist to this day, and that have some cases have literally millions of followers, and in some cases, have gone outside to dozens of countries around the world. So involving concerning these real great monks, these famous names, these giants of meditation practitioners, which of these Did you or your family or your father start to have contact with? What can you tell us about personal encounters that you had or that your father relayed, or your mother even that, that put you in proximity to some of these real great giants of the mindfulness movement.
Sunda Khin 1:51:46
I don't remember all the names, of course Maha CROs one of them. And then when we went overseas, or my father went on these Buddhist missions, always were we accompanied the leaders would be the one Seattles, and so forth. But I remember the, when uno was when you brought up this about the state religion, he was he wanted to make Buddhism, the state religion. And we have a lot of different faiths, of course, and then we do even up to this day, celebrate, or, you know, Christmas and, and Muslim Festival, and the Hindu and all these kinds of things. But when Ono was going to do that, there was a setup, I suppose, and investigative kind of thing. And the mission was, it was again, headed by the Supreme Court Justice think with a mile, and my father was the deputy. And we went on this boat, they still have that boat, it's a beautiful boat, all up and down the era Woody. And we stopped at all these places. And it was arranged to have meetings with these Buddhists, with these Christian leaders, or Muslim leaders or Hindu leaders or leaders to talk about the religion as being how important it is, I suppose. And I was on that boat, with my parents, and my mother was there to my father, and the other members. And so we stopped it and talk to all these mostly Catholic leaders and so on and so on. And I, they, of course, I did not see any kind of like, any big discussion at that time when I would go with them and sit in and listen, they will tell this, the government's part of it, why we need to have this as state religion, and what are what listening to these other religious leaders, and that I didn't find it was mostly very, very good, you know, they would go and then they would have these talks and all that. But then on the other hand, I do I felt from my friends and all that. The the feeling was, we don't need a state religion, because we have Buddhists, and what 98 99% are all Buddhists, so why do we want to make it official? Was I the younger people, I think of my age, were just they weren't too bothered about this. Whatever happens they are okay. But this was the feeling and I I personally, I think that was wrong. have to Oh, but we there was a lot of money spent because we weren't on this boat, this beautiful boat, I think they still have it, do they keep it for official visits and so forth. And to go but but he did or no did the right thing by conferring with all the religious leaders because we definitely have presence of you know, the missionaries as established quite a lot of these. We can only look at Jackson chapel and Rangoon. He also and my friends who are Christians and, and Catholics and of course Catholics, we have all these oldest churches as well. But that was my my feeling, but I was part of that and I'm, I'm very, I feel very, very good that I, you know, I was there when, you know, when this historic thing was, was going on this plan, so to speak, but I didn't think too much because I was at the age where you know, I didn't to me it was was a beautiful trip. We were hosted everywhere we stopped with you know, drums and all this and you know, really very mo welcome by that and then the names of these the car doors. I cannot go into this all these names come to my mind, but I can't pinpoint exactly which one but all the Seattle's Yes, we did I did grow up with with those shadows closely. In fact, as I was saying the Penang CRO opionion when we saw I think the Navamsa he when he did the missionary work and Penang and all that, and I didn't pay attention to when he came to the United States before he passed away. He was he was looking for a Champions daughter. And he remember Jen Jones daughter older daughter said I would like to see where is she? So he asked me and my friends say oh yeah, of course. And then they and then they contact me and they said oh yeah, we would like to do so I do remember Pina without but I said I had no idea that he was in Penang setup. so on. So he came to the house. And we talked and I went to see him and the sadly, he set up this big building and had a kind of a school, which the government took over confiscated. And I went there and he was there, I think in 2018. So when I went for my, when I was teaching the program, training teachers, and I went to see him because he was there and it was sad, is own building the one he set up himself. Beautiful. They will grounds there was a tall, three, four levels elevator No. And he was only in one room on one floor, because the rest was under the military. And so you know these things, and that was very depressing. And that was the last time and then he came to the US also the setup one in on Long Island. And I went to see him pay my respects and then he was not feeling too well. And then he went back and then a pastor, but he his legacy is very great. And also had he had done this, this achievement in the Muslim world to be able to have this temple in Penang, each one and then of all these people, Buddhists and EF the nuns as well. Buddhist nuns as well. So, because Nunnery was another thing that my father felt very strongly about because it was a dance. And it was gone in Thailand. He always regretted that in Thailand, that there were no nuns, that we still had a vibrant, kind of nunnery, nuns there and I myself was a nun. We, I went into the nunnery when I was about eight or nine, and that was the that Nunnery is still in existence and my parents help with them not only my parents, but who knew and other people also and they took in orphans actually young, young girls are maidens and none of the married women were were being initiated. They're only those who we call them view needs. later once. And that's how, and I was there also, along with UNO's young daughter, younger daughter, and I stayed the longest. And I didn't want to leave, because it was so much fun. You had so many, you know, your age, and running around, and we learned our scriptures, but we were allowed time to play too. So I liked that very much. So I really did have a background of, you know, growing up, true. Buddhists, Tera Vaada, Buddhist background, I must say I was fortunate.
Host 2:00:42
But that is all of this information is just so valuable and so insightful to know. And I realized we're about at the two hour mark, and we're probably only up to about 1961 or so we've yet to get to 62 and 74, and 88, and oh seven, and then 21, there's a lot to talk about in terms of the role that your father would play during these moments, and then the role that you would play in it, and as well as your commentary in what happened in going from a colonial state to World War Two transitioning into a rocky, semi democratic period in the 1950s. And then terrible decades of being closed off and military, military dictatorship, I think, to really do justice, and really make sure that we get a proper understanding and give time to tell these stories in the way they deserve to be told, I would propose that maybe we pause at this point, and come back and put this into a part two and to be able to, to continue this conversation and and continue to tell this story of you and your your peers and your father and invite you to come back and continue that conversation. But for now, this is this has just been so enthralling, and so wonderful to hear your words and stories and all this and I just thank you so much for taking the time and join and generously graciously sharing your time and your stories.
Sunda Khin 2:02:06
I thank you all so very much for bringing light to not only Buddhism but to some of the events that that have taken place in in Burma. So I thank you so much.
Host 2:02:30
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2:05:33
May all beings be happy and may is revealed in the wall