Transcript: Episode #174: Jack Myint, Part 1
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. Due to this, there may be inaccuracies in the text that do not precisely match the speaker's words. This is especially evident for speakers with stronger accents, as the AI may struggle with accurate interpretation and transcription. As a result, this transcript should not be referenced in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamps to verify the precise words spoken by the guest.
Host 00:19
During the current crisis unfolding in Myanmar events are happening so fast, it can feel challenging just to keep up with them. And we're working to increase our podcast production to stay abreast of this ever changing crisis. And besides our podcast, we encourage you to check out the blogs on our website insight myanmar.org where you can also sign up for our regular newsletter. And you can follow our social media sites just look for insight Myanmar on your preferred social media platform. With that, let's head into our show.
01:14
A
01:22
HA HA HA HA HA HA Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha yeah.
Host 01:59
All right, and thank you for joining us on this episode of insight Myanmar podcast, we're gonna have a conversation with Jack Myint about where his life has brought him from in one place to quite a journey. And another. So Jack, thanks for taking the time out of your very busy schedule to come and chat with us.
Jack Myint 02:18
Of course, thank you, Host, for having me, and for all the efforts that you've put into continuing to shine the light on EMR and the situation around it. So I appreciate it.
Host 02:35
Absolutely. And we'll get into your later story towards later in the conversation in the podcast. So you're based in DC, although you're, you're quite a traveling man going back and forth between various parts of Southeast Asia and the US. But before we get to where you're at today and what you've done to help your country and your people. Take us back to the origins of where you came from how you grew up the environment that were you were in before you found a way to get where you are now?
Jack Myint 03:06
Most certainly, yes, no. So I you know, I grew up in the 90s and a Quinta controlled Myanmar back then they would call it the state Peace and Development Council, Myanmar, that was in a middle lower middle class family. My dad was the taxi driver, my mom, a local primary school teacher, and you had a happy happy childhood, it but my parents knew early on particularly my dad knew early on that that English as a language was something that I needed to learn, in fact, to master to get out of the this lower to middle class circle and potentially, you know, more laborers work growing up. So, back then, just to give a little bit of context, you know, this is decade, more than a decade that more than decades after new wins, generally wins policy of not encouraging the study of English and pretty much cutting Yemma out of the rest of the world which have continued through the success of military dictatorships after him. So, the study of English as the language or really any literature with the English language was either not encouraged in public schools which are free of charge to attend or out of reach for the average VMR citizen to to pursue mainly because they're taught only at private schools, which of course require exorbitant amount of money at least back when back at that time from my parents standpoint, so They decided to do something completely unorthodox. And they were like, You know what we would take him to Shwedagon Pagoda, which is about only a five to 10 minute walk from my home and have him randomly talk to three to four tourists every day. That was really how they how they approached. And after, you know, I would go along Long taxi rides with my dad sit by his side and he teach me five or seven sentences in English. And no, you we had these little books where they would literally spell out how it's said in English in Burmese alphabet. And I, you know, study them by heart and I'll go to the Shwedagon. I mean, this was since I was like, you know, half years old, okay? Or the Shwedagon and just, you know, recite whatever I learned on the car earlier that day. And then was how I really started picking up on bits and pieces of language, whatever I could from, from tourists that were there. And from there. You know, it came to a point where my dad was like, Okay, well, you're starting to speak more more English than than I am. So he decided to take it another step and started borrowing videotapes and well, really, they weren't even CDs that and I still remember this vivid videotapes of these English Language Programs like family album, us a treasure attic. Just having them continuing to listen to them just familiarizing myself with that. And then, you know, by complete happenstance, one of the individuals that I went to talk to happened to be the editor of the Myanmar Times which back then was the only English language newspaper in the country. And you know, I started practicing I said, I'd love to have a chance to talk with you briefly and practice my English language skills while also share with them a little bit of what I know about the Shwedagon history and so forth. And, and they were, they were like, this is a good story. You know, this is this kid circumventing the overprice private school structure and learning English the way well, you know, the way that is within his his family's reach. And so they decided to do a feature article about oh, wow, out there in the New York Times, oh, a private school picked that up and decided to track me down and offered me a scholarship, which was well, which pretty much led to my continuing my studies from six, six years old onwards on full scholarship.
Host 08:09
That's amazing. You know, what's so funny about how your story intersects with my story from the other way around? Is you talk about your father being a taxi driver, and you're studying English and then going to shredded, gone to practice your English what you just learned with foreigners there. My story is that I came to Myanmar. And when I would study Burmese, my primary interlocutors and language partners in studying Burmese were taxi drivers. And I would go to try to go and meditate. So it's kind of this flip of what your story was. And I would do the same thing you did. Being a language teacher and a language trainer. I always knew that the best way to remember language was to use it. And so I would study whatever I could in my home. And then when I would go out not just the taxi drivers, the vegetable sellers and whoever else, but certainly taxi drivers are one of the main just being cotton that Yangon traffic was, was one of the main ways to practice and I just remember these absurd conversations where, you know, for example, I'd be studying jungle animals and I need to use it in a sentence. So as we're driving through Yangon traffic, I'd say Are there any elephants in Yangon? And they'd say no, there's no elephants and I'd say oh, there's no elephants? No, there's not and then I'd say well, how about leopards are there any leopards and just whatever absurd vocabulary I had to be able to just get myself to use it in context and have these kind of ridiculous conversations that that was showing that I was using it you know, having the right pronunciation and using it correctly, it whatever other grammar and language terms so it's kind of an interesting flip of, of what you were doing. But of course your your English got infinitely better than my Burmese was ever able to get to. So
Jack Myint 09:46
that's really the best Isn't it like this, this that, you know, into her personal encounters. It's so much fun. It's also you know, what really started off as wanting or trying to learn a language She opened up doors to so much more right? One of which being of course, well, you know, walking up and talking to random strangers that, as I learned later on in my life is is a skill set in itself, right? The ability to develop into the ability to make friends strike start strike conversation that that sort of was instilled in me through my pursuit of language. And not to mention, of course, the capacity to be able to stay in touch and maintain contact with people, which, you know, in a increasingly they say, what is it in social media? Well, we're becoming more and more antisocial, right? The end in that environment? Or when, after meeting new individuals, and you know, there was always a question, I would love to stay in touch. And that was how I pretty much develop pen pals, right, and connections all across, well developed an interest in their cultures, because, you know, I'm sharing about mine. I mean, it's only human nature. I'm asking them well, what what's it like, in your country? How are kids my age? You know, how do they what are they interested in? You know, what? Do you have this? Do you have a similar structure? Do you have a similar and there's those that, you know, obviously, there was a whole not a whole lot of political stuff back then. But even from then there was a keen understanding, perhaps even just subconsciously, right, that the folks that I talked to, were living in a much freer and open society than the one I was, I didn't know any better. I didn't know any. But I knew just from their anecdotes, just from the way that they talked, and the questions that they asked me, it was clear that there was something more bigger and freer out there.
Host 12:10
Can you give any examples of anything that comes to mind from that period where there were interactions you had in conversations that kind of open this this window or this door of something that you couldn't quite see beyond? But suddenly, you just had a realization there actually was a door there that you would never realize before into this other place?
Jack Myint 12:30
Oh, yes, absolutely. The one quest the one big, I guess, thing that I was flashing thing I should say that I, I remember was that there was this movie by Harrison Ford. Back in the, I don't know, it was in the late 80s, or 90s, called Air Force One. And I remember just loving that movie. And there was a scene where he was, he was the role he was playing was as President of the United States. There was a scene where he was headed to the airport. And there's this motorcade, right? A big limousine with all the, you know, flashing lights in the motorcade. And I, I thought that was a coolest thing ever. And whenever I turned over to my dad, and I said, Well, what's that? And how do you get one of those? And he said, Well, you have to be president to get that. That's the President of the United States. You have to be president to get that. And I said, Well, I want to be president. And he just laughed. Like, yeah, well, if that's if that's what it you know, because I didn't, I was five. Okay. So whenever then whenever I went back to Shwedagon, that evening. And when people asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, my answer from then on, was always oh, I want to be present. And they use it they found they found it interesting that even though our country had no such thing as precedent at that time, there was a military theater and there was without clearly understanding what that it mandates to be president right. And I should add that whenever you know, I go talk to these foreigners these large crowds of people start to form around because they just it was just a funny sight. Talking to foreigners in English and just a large groups of pilgrims and you know, knees, which is crowd around. Look at what's going on here. This seems interesting. What's he talking about? You know, and some of them would just be like, what what does he learn English? You know, we'd love to set up with that school, that sort of thing and I was, you know, doing my usual spiel. And, and I think one of the foreigners asked the question of, well, how do you intend to do that? In Myanmar? Which, which really sparked because I again, you know, I'm like, Well, I said, I don't know, you tell me, I'm fine and, and he said, Well, you know, you need elections to to become president or representative of any kind and the will of people and, and, you know, he perhaps a little too serious of a conversation for a five year old, but I will never forget it. He said that, you know, it was not the flashing lights and the cars and and the luxury that associates this very high, very public. official duty, it was really the sense of service that comes with it. The sense of service that comes with it and the burden of responsibility that these are just the well, just assessories to the real work at hand. It I didn't quite get the entirety of it. Sure. I, but it sparked something in my thought process that hadn't really quite thought of before. But that after that very conversation also, we got pulled aside by a friendly face within the shredder guy on a regular pilgrim who understood English and he said to my dad, you better put a lid on your son with all this talk about elections and politics. I know he's young. But the junta doesn't understand age. And when, when crowds form around a young child and a foreigner, you need to understand that they're also military intelligence. But gota Shwedagon, Temple security, all of those people, some speak English, some don't. But you don't want to take chances, tell him to change his answer. And my dad, of course, was I had no idea. He's, it's just turned 456 months ago, but sure, I'll, I'll do that. And my dad said, you are no longer to say that you want to be president, you shall say you want to be jewel merchant from now. Why is that? Well, because that's just where we live in. And you can save all your, you know, all your thoughts and all your whatever it is, you want to say, for when the time is appropriate, or in a country where it is appropriate to but for now, put a lid on it. That was my, my first encounter with with censorship? And were you keenly attuned to the sense that oh, well, one, power is not the pomp and glitter that comes with it is in fact, the responsibility. And two, I don't live in a society, not at all.
Host 18:25
That's so much for a five year old to absorb, I can't even imagine it. I mean, because not only are you first absorbing your first political lessons in terms of what you want to aspire to win what your country allows, which in and of itself, a child comprehending Even the mere existence of a political system, let alone which one it is, is, is is, is conceptually very complicated for that mind. And then second, after, after having some glimpse of the existence and contrast to political systems, you're then immediately burdened with your limitations and recognizing the system that you're in as well as your own aspirations that are limited by it. So I just can't even comprehend what what it would be like to five and I know that you know, right now you're imposing your your, you're superimposing back your own feelings and perspective on to that moment that maybe you weren't so aware of at the time, but the pieces were there, and just to have even those pieces there that more in the form of budding questions than any kind of answer, I would assume, but as a five year old to begin to work apart and think through these complexities. That's, you know, that that itself will set you on quite a path, I think.
Jack Myint 19:39
Yeah, I thought I thought so. Too, Joe, I mean, it. It certainly open open your mind to a lot I mean, that it made it all it did was it made me ask a lot more questions. I asked a lot of questions to a point that, you know, and I understand the restraints that you The public, my public school teachers were imposed. And that, you know, they too are under state surveillance and their curriculum carefully monitored and afterward. So the there's only so much they too can share, right? And they, they themselves are constantly oppressed so that certainly it goes trickles down to the students. And that that became the entire education system as this where, you know, you, you just learn what is taught. In fact, it's ideal if you just study every word, learn everything by heart, and pretty much regurgitate whatever's in the textbook, and that's the definition of a good student, a bad student is where you question your elders where you will shun too much then your than your rebellious and rebellion is, well, you know, the ticket to and dangerous if not a calamitous life moving forward, right. So that's how it was framed, and I should talk about the public school system, though I got away from it, you know, I still I mean, growing up in like I said, lower, lower middle income neighborhood, I was perhaps the very first in among my friend group to be able to go to a private school, you know, they thought it was so funny when on my first day of school when I had my necktie and which, which reminded them of a tropical fruit. And the navy blue shorts I wore they thought made me look like a traffic police cop. It was, it was it was just funny to be to be going to private school and but I was so constantly exposed to both worlds, right where the private school is having more access to, to libraries and certain literature along with that, even though the import of sound literature is still banned, right. There, they are crossed out sections, I mean, entire pages torn in some of the books that you've read, I mean, I don't think I've read the full version of George Orwell's 1984 or animal farms. I joined only when I joined the American Center or the you know, the US Embassy controlled American Center was everywhere else, pages torn off or redacted. Some of this is they're given us some of the language that we used. So all this to say the just to give a glimpse, right of what what it means in the Myanmar public school system is that it is determined by your grade, what sector what field you go into, right. And the grade of course, as I mentioned earlier, being determined by what you could regurgitate back from whatever is in the textbook. So those who will get memorize the most gets the highest scores. And if you stay on this path, and you get the highest scores, that can determine what you do for the rest of your life. With number one being the highest scores, the best, the best gets to go into medicine, the second highest gets to go into engineering, so on so forth, right? The, you know, those with lowest scores cannot, can never go into fields that are determined quote, unquote, higher up, but also those with the highest scores can go anywhere they please and of course, if you highest score, you know, to enter medical school, the parents always go well, why would you jump all the way down to say, for instance, philosophy or law, you know, it almost is funny, where, you know, you have it's not uncommon for for parents to say, well, you know, you're not doing your homework you're not studying, right? Do you want to end up going to law school? Because it's the low of the lowest rates end up in law school, was because with which tells you really, how much how discouraged, right the legal system is or free waters or anything that is not structured hard sciences that clearly dictates and indicates a have a sense of order, right? In everything you do a step, a sense of order, procedure, and flow. That's it. And that that makes you the the top of society, right and everything else is an outcast. So, it you know, growing up in that it was tough if you are a nosy kid with huge ambitions. Let's just say I caused my fair share of trouble with teachers and adults alike.
Host 25:38
Yeah. And that was something I wanted to ask how did you balance your aspiration, your curiosity, your inquisitiveness and your words, your nosiness? How did you balance that with being in a totalitarian state that to many people, and I'm not sure to what extent this was true to you. And that's really my question, engendering a sense of fear, a sense of paranoia of self censorship, even the years that I was in Myanmar, before the democratic transition, even knowing that the penalties to me were so much less than anyone actually living there, I can remember the kind of madness of self censorship playing in my mind and just thinking about what to what to say, and how to say it. And when I went too far, and when I covered too much, but in in your case, having this this real curiosity and inquisitiveness to want to learn about the world and about yourself, and being in an oppressive society where some measure of fear needed to serve as a self protective mechanism, but you know, too far can make you kind of paranoid and crazy. How did you how did you balance these different competing factors in your young journey at that time?
Jack Myint 26:48
Right. You know, I was fortunate to once I moved to private school to have had a great teachers who encouraged that sense of curiosity, right? With because private schools to some degree are shielded from what they are, first of all, they exorbitantly priced, but I got that taken care of, for me, fortunately, due to the scholarship, so the contrast between you know, the limitations imposed on private school teachers and public school teachers are quite fast, my mom being a public school teacher herself, would, would, would tell me that some of the stuff that I discussed or am able to write in my essays or share with my teachers, she she never would have been able to do but she almost always look on longingly, you know, and thought, and it's such a stark contrast, right? Because everyone in my same economic class, my mom being a teacher for 25 years, actually 28 years of her life. So she, she, she loves all her students. And I think there's a, an sort of longing, even a bit of regret on her part whenever she gets a glimpse of the coursework that, you know, I've been assigned and the conversations that I've been having, and, and I come back home, and I see that she's happy for me, but at the same time, she's like, Oh, I wish I could have the same interactions with with with my kids, you know, with my, in my classroom, although she's, of course not. And as a government employed teacher under the government school system, I mean, you know, she could she could potentially even be arrested if she broke away from that curriculum. And, and, and so it was this this conundrum, but I noticed that early on, right, but I was fortunate to have, you know, teachers to have books that I could escape to, you know, as I mentioned earlier, George Orwell became one of my favorite authors. I had my pen pals who managed to keep in touch and, and I'm also a very visual person I've been I became obsessed with listening to speeches as just speeches, just the way that oratory was perhaps it's the you know, this subconscious from five year old me with Well, you got to be whatever it is you do what the biggest best thing in the world is to be president. So I started presidential speeches and I just fall in love with Bill Clinton speeches were even rent these. By then there were there were CDs that were able to rent at the USA As US Information System, also known as nowadays as the American Center, Yangon, so we go there and you know, pick up speeches across great speeches across history or artists inauguration speeches, and just watch them over and over and over again. And for the longest time, I thought, because I such a big fan of, of Bill Clinton that I thought the southern drawl was the only English Yeah, yeah, I started imitating him. And you know, in my Myanmar being a former British colony, my, my teachers had a British accent and, and they taught me to speak in a British accent. And then I discovered Bill Clinton, and I'm trying to sound like this Wi Fi, are you talking about? I was making fun of them. But, you know, I yeah, I was hooked. I just kept listening to it, I wrote down quotes that I liked. And, and, and I, I knew there was just something so intriguing about leaders and decision makers, has the support of the people, you know, growing up as, as I now, you know, go into my teenage years, you become more acutely aware that no one in society, you know, it doesn't matter. Your economic class is a fan of the government. Everyone's unhappy with the governance, right, everyone. I mean, it's a rule by fear. I mean, of course, if you weren't express it, but you know, that there is no sense of love. You know, the way that even even the way that you look at say, you know, some celebrity that that that you like, alright, well, nowadays you have social influencers, but back then movies, so you have a TV star, right? So you look at a TV star, or say some of the, you know, celebrity status level, monks who effectively go around preaching people, and, you know, the crowds that they draw, and then you look, and I like, get, I'm a nosy kid, I observe things. And I look into the eyes of these people. And there's this, this glimmer of hope, almost this adoration, right? Love towards these individuals. And, and never, you never see that with any one in the the administrative structure in the governance structure. Then, by by my early teenage years, we're starting to, you know, hear whispers of the opposition of the lady, of course, the story lady that I was able to learn about through whispers. And, in fact, you know, that we were starting to circulate pamphlets with her picture on it, which was highly you, someone finds a picture of her in your notebook or something in prison, right? So I still remember that. But I had one of those and my mom sitting me down and just, yeah, really giving me lesson of I know how you feel. But I will also tell you how we would feel if you ended up seven years in prison, because I was in my teenage years already. Right. And, and there are teenagers who get arrested all the time. That that was a wide awakening, of sorts.
Host 33:58
I'm curious, you know, you mentioned how you got so enamored with the speeches of leaders, especially addresses, and especially Bill Clinton and his style of rhetoric. And you were getting more and more accustomed and familiar with sounds like largely the American patterns and styles of rhetoric and rousing speeches and being able to have to choose words in such a way that would really the scale and this magic of being able to use one's words to rile up and, and inspire and encourage all of one's followers. And looking at your understanding of how that was operating in an American sense and with American leaders in society and culture. And then looking back and Myanmar society looking at examples, the examples you gave, perhaps of, of monks or giving speeches to many, many for people that are listening of political leaders like Aung San su chi, who is is also trying to give speeches to inspire the people. People's well, and then perhaps the speeches of the military. And yeah, I get totally that at that time, the military was not really giving those speeches and not using rhetoric that really rallied anyone because everyone hated them. I wonder if there were other times or other venues or closed door functions where you were able to hear technically, how military leaders were using their rhetoric, and what they were attempting to do with it. And just what your thoughts are, and looking at which parts of this this rhetoric and this rousing speech making, are tapping into something universal in the human spirit, and where you're able to kind of pick apart what works in an American space, and then how the Burmese space is different and contrasted in that and what's what's working there in these different venues?
Jack Myint 35:50
Yeah, yes, no, I, thanks for that. Great question. I think, you know, good oratory is just really an encapsulation of what, what the public sentiment, what people feel, right, if you're able to find the right words, to capture what people feel, you will, you know, get a following mean, you will, and following not so much because, you know, you're you're creating anything new per se, it's just that you're able to put into words what others aren't, either by circumstance, or either, you know, because it's just hard to put into words, the these feelings of repression that have been pressed down into society for decades upon decades, and not to mention marred by civil war and economic inequality. So you add all that, and it's like, you know, oh, I'm too tired for this, to figure it out, let's just survive becomes the modus operandi of most of the population, but then deep down, you know, press down, I should say, in there is an innate yearning for anything, but this is not even so much that we want something, it's just that anything but this system, right, that that all that is that has always existed. And if you can tap into that, you can draw out, pretty much you can draw out the entire country, you can have a voice to it, not so much change the country, but put towards the sentiment of the country. Right. And which is I think, as close to, you know, that description is whatnot on sand Suji was able to capture in the late 80s and early 90s. And throughout, and then once again, when she came to office, because, you know, for the longest time, the way the social contract theory, where when you look at government governments and say, okay, in exchange for, you know, the power and authority that you have, what are the protections and rights that we aren't out, right? Doesn't exist has always been well, you know, if you if you want to make if you want to make money, if you want to, you know, get kickbacks and get rich, quick go join the military. I mean, it's it's an enterprise and unfortunately, one that has turned into a criminal enterprise. It in the aftermath of the 2021 coup and today's military dictatorship yet again. So, so I lose my train of thought here. But when I heard those speeches when I heard people being able to articulate and, you know, you study American politics, and you get the sense a lot of the time, or politicians what they lay out in the best ones are already existing sentiments of they may be changed, but they already pre existing sentiments of change, right, that really emphasized and, you know, through powerful rhetoric brought brought to life that becomes the face or tag line of a movement, but you need to have those pre existing, I guess, sentiment in society to begin with. And I learned that by I really learned that a political component of it when I went to join monkhood as a child, you know, you would imagine Burmese monk, young Burmese novice no less it's just well either you if it's more you know Rule area monastery, you, you play a lot with your fellow novices and you go with your arms bow, you get your day's meal. And as some of my friends would joke, you try to sneak in a late evening meal, because that's, that's the typical rite of passage, if you will, that every Burmese Buddhist boy goes through, and I did some of the same in my teenage years, and I ended up at a monastery that as long been affiliated with my family, now, the head monk of that monastery, who is since become, you know, my godfather, my mentor, and really my source of inspiration. My first real mentor, in anything that has anything to do with political was a shoo in. Yeah, was CRO, the chief abbot of the Dodrio Buddhist monastery. He was a rebel in every sense of the word. Care, he said what he wanted to say he, but he understood, he understood politics in the sense that, you know, he knew what levers to push when to pull back. But he was always either right on the brink, right. And he had gotten arrested so many times, he had gotten questions so many times. And, and yet he, you know, the tenacity, in his ability to stay on course, was just truly inspiring. And, again, the nosy self that I am. And I think with some of the, you know, early installations of well, no fear and going to talk to random strangers, asking him a lot of questions. And normally, this is, I mean, forget, for four months, novices don't so much associated with the chief rabbi, or the head monk of an entire monastery, that's just out of the question. But he seemed, you know, he seemed to have a lot to say, and I seem to have a lot to ask. And so I started with the softball questions, you know, like, how did you get so good? I think everybody was that question, you know, how did you get this? And, of course, I mean, I don't I can't think of anyone in history that would take anger at that issue at that question, right. So it starts with something like that to more that hard hitting questions. And it got to a point where he would literally stay up all night to talk to this 13 year old. He had yet so much to do. He's running a Buddhist university with over 20,000 monks, and he was carrying this teenager some attention and, and I asked, and, and he answered, and we begin to develop a mentor, mentee ship that has lasted a lifetime. He also learned that I spoke English and so he said, Okay, well, I'll teach you, you everything you want to know on history and the people's movement, our struggle against military governance, and you know, the the nature, ethnic, politics and religion, politics, Monk politics, all of it right? If you teach me a little bit of English, so my deal, right, and I, and he wouldn't let me leave the monk when I'm supposed to be a one week. My teachers would have to come to the monastery with homework because the chief monk decided, all right, we're gonna keep him around for a bit. And the teachers are like, summer's over, he needs to come back to school. And monk says, Well, I think he can spend a few more months you you, you come here. So the teachers had to, you know, indulgent, he was that kind of figure is that community leader, everybody loved him everywhere he went. And I saw that I saw the hope that people looked at him with, you know, I saw that when he said, what was on everyone's mind so beautifully, and in incorporating some of the teachings of Buddhism or the history of ancient kings into his regular speeches, even for a brief moment, that was this almost, you know, therapeutic calm in an otherwise very oppressed, unfair and unfree society. He was able to deliver that right it's this is not even You know, full fledged revolution, we're talking about hours of escaping the reality that we have to go back to. But in that, in those lecture halls in those monasteries that he spoke at, you saw it, you saw it in those people's faces and they go back, home nourished, right, even for that fate brief second. And that, to me was, I mean that I was hooked. That was it.
Host 45:29
Yeah, that's amazing. And it makes me want to ask the question, you know, lately, the Burmese monkhood in national press has gotten a pretty bad rap. And that's not totally undeserved. That's with the rise of the 969 and my Python, route two and these other kind of terrible anti Islam propaganda that's been going on for the last decade, as well as some nationalist monks who are not necessarily opposed to the coup. At the same time, this kind of focus by Western media has has an a focus on those that are making the most noise and the most commotion, this has left a gap and the existence of so many monks like the one that you reference, that it really for, when you're looking strictly in terms of Western media, it really takes some pretty deep contacts and understanding with the language and the culture and the religion of this country to be able to, to find these people who are making the same commotion who are doing, I don't want to say small things, because they're not doing small things. But they're doing things that if you're, if you're an outsider, they're not really going to rise above the level to understand what they're doing and why it's important. And so my question with that, you know, with that in mind, of how this is seldomly covered in English, by the international press, it's seldomly understood, the more hateful aspects have been the things that have, perhaps rightly so been in, in the news in the past decade. And and certainly there's a place for that. And yet, there's also a place for monks like this. And so my question with that background and context to help our listeners better understand this area of the Sangha and monks like this, this particular monastic and who he is and what he does, and how he does it, to better understand this, which is not come to light as much in other places, is, first of all, looking at, you know, in what ways did this monk show an alignment between the Buddhist teachings and the, in his role as a monk, and democratic values that are creating a fair and inclusive society for all and where you're valuing the inclusion of other people in that society? You know, first of all, looking at that, and then second of all, looking at this issue of rhetoric and how and someone is yourself who's so attuned to oratorical skills, and how one can use language to put something together in a simple straightforward way that inspires people in ways that they wouldn't even have known in what ways in, in a in a particularly Burmese and a Burmese Buddhist environment, was this monk able to use language in an effective way that was able to promote this, his his, his way of disseminating Buddhist wisdom, while also showing the Buddhist teachings in alignment with these western values of democracy and human rights.
Jack Myint 48:33
Thank you, Joe, I think to answer that you have to start with the evolution of the role that monks play in in Burmese society writ large, right, you for the longest time, monks, what what they have really offered is a filling the especially in rural Myanmar, right, filling the vacuum of leadership, governance and really basic public services. That, well, the dictatorship simply could not fulfill, right, including with education help. In many cases, monks played sort of a respected elder role, you know, they would go in to judge disputes that these minor disputes that sort of stuff, and are highly respected throughout every village commune and state township levels, so that you have you have people who would, you know, little to no. Basically, education availability in these these districts in these villages, they would pretty much have to send their their children to the monitor To the monastery takes care of it, monastery provides, you know, at least you'll learn how to read and write. And at least there will always be food, right? Because Myanmar is a 98%. Buddhist country, and there's always, you know, the spirit of community and generosity, giving back, right? This instilled in our psyche and culture. So, for when economic conditions go Dyer, more more communities start relying on monasteries, and the monks as leaders of those monasteries to well to lead really community at large. That has always existed. And, you know, of course, the sentiment of what that also means, then is then the sentiment of, and the struggle of the public, then starts to resonate with the monks as well, a lot of people, you know, think the general idea of the Zen Buddhist monk who, you know, just meditates and is immune to the struggles of the world doesn't quite so much encapsulate the picture of your typical Burmese Buddhist monk, UC Berkeley, where you are, in fact, very in tune with society, because you are, you know, no matter how you look at it, a leader of society, and when the economic mismanagement, and the impacts of decades of isolation from international community through sanctions really start to hit home, right, I mean, Myanmar is a very resource rich country. So we were able to withstand and tolerate most, but when the rest of the global economy continues to move at a incredibly fast pace, and we see our neighbors, you know, surpass our GDP by 243 fours, next thing, you know, 10 Falls, that becomes a problem, right? That becomes a problem because input cost starts to increase. I mean, this, you know, job losses, the basic economic functions start to fall apart. And, of course, corruption and mismanagement of a kleptocracy, one might even say, starts to impact the very bottom of society. And this then reflects on what this then transfers to the many of the monks who, which then sparked what you may recall the 2007 Saffron Revolution, right? It was something as simple as well, you know, the cost of rice and oil, edible oil, basic goods, or electricity not being, you know, able to be on for even a third of the day, and some something as basic. Next necessity, as folks in the western world would look at it. Yeah. That sparked that movement, either you have hundreds of 1000s of monks taking to the streets in peaceful protests and prayer against the military rule. And it's not even so much like, give us a, you know, elections or give us a new poll or put on Santucci in charge. It wasn't even that sort of it was simply Okay. Well, will you do something to address the very obvious very increasing degrees of poverty, instead of, you know, lining your pockets stuffed to fool that that was a simple ask. Well, the military's response at that time to that was, let's shoot at them. They shot the monks. They shot at the monks they put them in jail and squashed any and all sense of activism and leaders that were involved. They accuse them off, you know, oh, we need a revamp of the of the of the monkhood because I've been infiltrated by dissenters and the, what they call the pro democracy terrorists, which is quite ironic. And, and so the but they but they when they while they crushed it with force, I think there was an acute awareness among the military leadership Well, at least a military strategist that crap we we've lost the max, we've lost that base and you know the military's tone and rhetoric has always been a largely Seino, phobic, protectionist culturally oriented, anti Well, pretty much everything anti anti anything progressive really. And the way you tie that bind is through culture and religion. And there are no better representatives to sell the story of culture and religion than monks. And so now you've gone ahead and shot at them, you've lost your base, you can't lose your basis, I think the awareness that they got, so they really, from 2008 to beyond, started in any at all costs in any way that they can to re shape that relationship. I think that is the one place where the military invested the most in is to when it comes to it to own the rhetoric of protecting race and religion as theirs. Because the purity of the Bomar race, the cultures that come with it. And Myanmar being a Buddhist, majority country that is constantly under threat of a Muslim domination, all of that. They knew that they needed to own that in order to have any legitimate political base. Whatever cost it takes, right, most of it comes hate you. We'll talk a little bit in about in a bit about, you know, the Rohingya issue and Sequent crimes against humanity that were permitted all of that. As they look to move out from a, you know, the well, they've they were trying to move from a purely military dictatorship to a civilian rule right. Through the forming of the 2008 constitution. So when they were look drafting those a constitution, the the awareness was, if we were to go out and have political standing, what is it that we're going to stand on? What is it that the other side is weakest in the weakest side being you know, foreign powers, when you say foreign powers, there's an implied there's so many layers of implied meaning. It says like, well, you know, you have these big bad colonizer types that are going to come in, take our resources and our way, and our religion, that that's how they're framing it. And of course, it cuts two birds with one stone because the base of the opposition leader Aung San su chi, his popularity, was what it is, to some degree still, but she did lose a lot of it during the Rohingya issue was the West. And so the military needed a counter to that, and in crafting that counter, monks were the perfect representatives or agents of that rhetoric. And, you know, they they were able to reshape I mean, it's a lot of it is just political, you know, you just throw throw money, benefits titles, you you root out the more quote unquote disobedient ones. And then you start to propagandize and craft rhetoric around and of course social media with the emergence of social media. I think Myanmar military most effectively was able to you know, utilize it in in in this hate field as it may be in this carving out their own political platform based on race religion and enforcing this well as far as I you know, pragmatically speaking non existent threat that all these countries around us that are Islamic, there's a you know, Islamic propaganda to take over. The one last haven in Southeast Asia have? Well, I mean, you have you have Thailand that's still Buddhist Cambodia that still do this. And then, you know, Myanmar is largely Buddhist is like, well, they're these outside, you know, OYC oversee Islamic Cooperation and outside oil interests who are going to come in, they're going to marry our women in the dozens and force all the children into, you know, becoming Muslims and conspiracy to come after us. And we need to do something about it, that that sort of rhetoric, that propaganda and falsehood that they start spreading, and, and for the months that, you know, relatively unknown monks of the extremist monks that were preaching those, they throw money behind and put them on national level platforms. So they were like, Alright, what do you need to set up a TV station, we'll set up a, oh, we'll set up speaking tours for you, we'll we'll give you helicopter escorts whatever you need, we'll pour money. And it worked. It worked. Because I think, you know, when, when, during the opening of Myanmar in 2011, to the transfer of a civilian government, or quasi civilian, I should say, because a former military guys who came in into civilian uniform, and then dance and sushis NLD party winning the election in 2015, that first attack, as expected, right, you are weak for race and religion, the first first attack, right? So which is also the pressure on her to, which again, I thought was the wrong political move. But again, I'm a political novice. So what do I know? But the some explain the domestic political restraint that she had it not been able to be more outspoken about the Rohingya was because from the get go, it's that, oh, you will just sell the country off to the Westerners and the, you know, Oh, I see money right now. Oh, not to mention this, there's the Jewish conspiracy to that feeds into which they tie off to George Soros. Not too unlike some of the, you know, the rhetoric that that you hear in some parts of this country, but the bottom line of it, is that attack towards her Where are you you're weak on, you know, race, religion, and standing up for our traditionalist cultures and values. And, and the monks, the monks at that time, by then, majority, I would say, had bought into that, and I think they, the military was able to win that base between the span of 2008 to 2021, when they start to notice a very few level of, you know, then a sangha participation in the, in the, the revolutionary activities, yeah, have emerged sense which you're, you're seeing another next generation, or guests, a shift in the dynamics of how the new generation of Burmese, see Buddhism as a religion, and month as leaders of society.
Host 1:03:47
Before we get into that part of it, which is contemporary times, and definitely really important to get into and unpack just to spend a bit more time on the some of the points that you brought up. I think it's also important to put everything you said in a context going back centuries, that and look at the religion itself, that Buddhism is a religion that the founder of its religion built on impermanence. This is very unique among world religions that awful often promote this sense of permanence, that it's the outside world, it's fleeting, but the salvation we're offering you is the one lasting forever kind of thing for your soul. Buddhism rests on a message that everything including and especially the Buddhist teachings, are also impermanent. And there's and that the the Buddhist teachings, except it's themselves will one day arise and pass away like everything else. And nothing is exempt from this law of impermanence. And in Myanmar, in particular, there's been a paranoia and fear going back centuries that's been chronicled mostly by I would have to reference the work of Alicia Turner. She's just done some really excellent work and some of her books and showing In the previous history of this fear and how it was manifested within Burmese Buddhist society, going back to the time of kings, of the signs that the Buddhist teachings would be leaving, and there was kind of this sense of, you know, not on our watch, like, when we're around and when were guardians of these teachings, whether were monks or lay practitioners or, or or leaders in, in the royal court or in government or in the military, whoever, whatever your position is that you're you're looking at these telltale signs of what would be a premonition for the Buddhist teaching starting to fall apart, whether it's a pagoda that crumbles or whether it's a, you know, a project that doesn't turn out or, or the other way, auspiciously, whether you're able to somehow get a relic or someone becomes, reaches the stage of enlightenment within this region. These are auspicious signs. But there's this constant fear that that Alicia Turner is describing as actually internal. She's in her book, in her book, she's describing that there's this inherent internally manifested fear that because the nature of the Buddhist teachings are impermanent, that there's always this risk that our generation is going to be the generation that loses it, this is going to, you know, this is inevitably going to be lost. We know that there's no question about that. But the start of the loss, the start of the loss of the sosna is going to happen in our generation, and that's intolerable. We need to do whatever we can to prevent that. And in Turner's analysis and work, she posits that this internal manifestation of this fear then latches on to whatever the current external circumstances are. So whether there's an external threat coming from this entity or that entity, well, this is the thing that's now going to manifest this eternally inherent fear that the Buddhist teachings are going to leave in our lifetime. And, of course, in the colonial era, there were many such concerns, for obvious reasons, that with the loss of the king, that these teachings were now in jeopardy, and that's also why the work of someone like lady say it at that time, and what he did to be able to repurpose and bring the teachings in a modern way that was not scared of modernity, as you mentioned, that there's a fear even of the English language that was true even back with lady say, that lady said it wasn't like some of those other monks that saw the English language itself as a threat to Buddhism was actually engaging in intellectuals and scientists and, and other figures around the world, to be able to have the confidence of showing how Buddhism and the Buddhist teachings could adapt. And that's really the genesis of the whole worldwide mindfulness movement that we've seen today with some of the reformations. That lady said it was making the 19th century. But just to read, not to reframe, but to provide this context to everything that you're saying everything that you're saying is, is absolutely true and so insightful in terms of what it's telling us about how the following the 2007 cell phone revolution, the military regime is using the manipulating the the traditional clergy to be able to, to keep them on their side and use their rhetoric and latching on to the existing fear of that day, which was the, which came mostly in the form of, of Muslim invasion, some Western materialism I'd say thrown in there as well. But but certainly the and even harkening back to the old colonial era sometimes I mean, you can always count on the good global New Global Light of Myanmar to be able to throw those references in. But that there there were these. It was this kind of in Turners words, it was this kind of eternally internally manifested inherent fear that has been present for decades and for centuries, that the Buddhist teachings might be leaving during our watch, and we can't allow that. What happens to be the cause of the threat this time? Oh, it's the Muslims. And it just so happened, that this whole context and rhetoric fit into the military's need to shore up their most needed area of support. And so it was all these different confluences coming together both the historical and I'd even argue cycle religiously psychological aspect, which is animated for all this time under the surface with the external manifestations of of scapegoating. The Muslims with the military's need to be able to find a reason justifying their existence. All of this, I would argue, is actually obscuring the fact that it's kind of this smokescreen that is is preventing the truth of what I see that if there is a genuine threat to Burmese Buddhism today and if there is a threat to the Buddhist teachings being on sensitive ground in Burmese society today. The tama is the greatest threat to Burmese Buddhism that we've seen in our lifetimes. That's might be a bold statement. It might be controversial. But that would be, that'd be a statement that I would make. And I would, I would stand on that hill to fight for the validity of that statement. And I think, nowhere have I heard more evidence for that statement than what you started to infer at the end of your talk. Just now we talked about previous to this podcast, where you were describing to me your contact with certain people in the resistance youth, especially that were feeling that the monkhood in the clergy. And Buddhism itself was the second biggest enemy of the state, or not of the state, but of the state that they want to build of their movement behind the military itself. And so by the military's direct actions, opposing, you know, the more progressive and inclusive style of Buddhism that you talked about, from your mentor, and godfather and that monk, by the military's own actions, we're seeing an erosion of faith among the next generation that I don't know, historically, when we've ever seen in Myanmar before.
Jack Myint 1:11:12
Well, I mean, it's, I mean, it's not surprising, right? It's the nature of power politics. It's the nature of resource flows. And it's just how it's how these propaganda campaigns work. And I think you're spot on Host in your your assessment, but almost ironic if not straight up, oxymoronic, isn't it, a Buddhist whose ideology is and rooted in the idea of impermanence that you can hold that nothing can hold be held onto forever, being nervous about not being able to hold on to this space in society. But that's the the, but I think it's not so much, you know, a critique in any way of Buddhism as a religion, and really not religiously, but Buddha has always taught me this is philosophy, it's an ideology, right? That's always been the case. And that's not the what we should be talking about here, the issue, and at the core of it has always been the culture and the culture that surrounds this practice and the culture that becomes added on and deeply entrenched, with varying influences. So much so that the baseline idea of the or the core ideology that this culture becomes the culture is constructed around begins to fade, right. And that's really what's happening in this case, and you you have that and you add on to it, the, the real time, economic hardship and impact, you know, when you are so disenfranchised, and and so economically disadvantaged? What do you really have to hold on to other than identity right identity of being the majority being Buddhist, which is it's like almost like being, you know, Burma, Buddhists in some areas of the country, it's almost like being the equivalent of a wasp here in the US sure that you have a lot of debt. But hey, your grandfather used to be this, that and the other. It's similar mentality where, you know, you take the class and which they is there's a class structures is I think it exists in every society and more so evident in Myanmar society. But when, you know, for folks that are at the bottom of the food chain, where they feel that they have nothing to hold on to and worse, they have nothing to lose, the only thing that they can establish commonality and in some cases superiority is through religion. It's through what you're, you're born this way. You're born as a Burma Buddhist or as Rakhine Buddhist or as a Muslim, Buddhist, and that makes you better. That gives you an elevated status in society, then, then, well, whoever is not right. I think that that that's the core of it that the military was able to tap into when the hateful and eventually I would say dangerous activities that they were able to that they were able to strike up among the populace so and you know, the whole notion of impermanence and all that, yeah, that sounds good on paper and principle, but you know, the reality and you've been doing your mind enough times to know that that's not the case at all. And you talk to anybody on the streets and anybody in in schools, even at the taxi gates that you'd like to frequent so often, you know, tell you, we're, you know, we're getting exposed to capitalism and the culture of consumerism from every and everywhere you look. No matter how much you try to put a lid on it, you have, you know, it's from soft culture, you have Korean soap operas coming in, right? You have, you know, Thai dramas that you can pretty much bootleg and get to get in CDs that I grew up with bootleg CDs, I got every every entertainment, I've watched from the age of, you know, five to 15, is bootleg all borrowed from from some library or the or the American Center. Right. So it's, it's we're constantly exposed to it. That we may pretend that the government may pretend that that keeping the country isolated, but you can only you can only keep it isolated, so long, and it's not as stringent it the likes of North Korea. So when you are exposed to it, but have no access to it, that creates the kind of hunger that I mean, that's hard to you know, it's hard to put a barometer on, I would say, and, and in a way if utilized, right, that hunger can be useful, that hunger can be the driver for economic growth, the likes of which we haven't seen in the in the modern, modern economy. Not yet. That's why a lot of people call me Mr. The last Asian Tiger when that economy open, right, when you have been held back for so long, but you are exposed to what the outside world is doing. And getting ahead when you're finally is your chance, you tend to give it your all and that was willing to give at the at the beginning of the country's liberalisation. And the numbers speak for itself. You know, I mean, there is, you know, if the if you're measuring happiness index, and you know, a quaint little country with all 98% Buddhists, just really, you know, digesting the notion of impermanence and, and non material possessions that will be completely wrong characterization I'll surely know and grew up in because it is not, it is anything but and people were hungry, and they were hungry for a better future. And they wanted to be able to compete regionally, internationally. And they wanted all the advancements and material possessions that the rest of the world had, and they've been deprived for so long. And they they didn't want handouts, they wanted to get there themselves. Yeah. And I sensed that and I saw that, which is why, you know, when I had the opportunity to come and study in the in the United States, I made it my career goal to align with that. This, you know, economic liberalization, focused on enabling development and fast paced growth that would appeal to Myanmar's growing base of young, educated and a liberal minded crowd.
Host 1:19:15
Yeah, I think you bring up some good points. And I think you're really you're painting the picture of just this many contrasting and conflicting forces that are coming together. And I think that's what, that's what the transition period is. I think it's going to be many years and many decades to really for future historians and scholars to untangle what exactly was happening during that time because there were so many different forces that were hitting so many different people in different ways as well. And I don't think it's necessarily mutually exclusive that you can have a people that are completely engaged in this opening capitalist window of opportunity and some sort of freedom, especially if you're a Buddhist at that time, and some Buried psychological paranoia fear that that is relating to the Buddhist teachings and when they're going to evaporate, and if they're going to leave during this lifetime, I think that human society is very complex. And there could be these different forces that are that are pushing and pulling in different ways and animating you even in contradictory kind of styles as well. And looking at just the monastic scene and the the monastery context, as you were involved in, in, in being at these monasteries, being a Burmese Buddhist and being a novice for some time, but started to grow in an interest in politics and rhetoric and oratory and leadership. And then looking at those skills and how they were exhibited in a monastic setting and framework. One of the things that stands out in my mind that that you said, when we met I, I, it's been on my mind ever since I have to repeat it just for the benefit of our listeners, you describe how the politics that you witnessed in Burmese monasteries were on a different scale than anything you've seen seen in the beltway where you live in DC that it would put anyone in DC politics to shame how, how sharp and, and how, how high the political game is, in the Burmese monastic setting. I think that's somewhat I think that's a statement that would really, really surprise and confuse a lot of Western listeners who as you said, have this very different idea of what a Buddhist monk or a Buddhist monastery should be. So can you also fill out a little behind that statement? What what is it about the politics of Burmese monasteries that make them so cutting and how do these politics manifest
Jack Myint 1:21:50
sharp elbows Joe a sharp? Well, because you know, that that is the optics, and then there is the practice. I think, you know, if you maneuver called Joe and bit conniving as a politician, that sort of general sentiment of acceptance, right. I mean, well, you know, sometimes you got a you got to make deals and, you know, move things in a certain way to get things done. Right. But with with monkhood and and month politics, it's entirely different. You have you have to be especially in monk politics, right. You have to be self serving under the banner of selfless selflessness, you are every move political and position of influence and dominance right, which will, you know, either set stage or which will either have a say and you know, who gets what, monastery real estate, you know, who gets to run? How many groups of monks and be placed in which region state that and which has? Where do you get to preach? Right? Even all of that, right? That the Society of they call it that not? mahanagar? So the grand Society of monks I would, roughly translated in English is, is pretty unique. And it's it's so nuanced, right? It's a level of skill that I have never witnessed anywhere. And I've been in Washington over a decade. And, you know, I've seen how politics move and, and how, let's just say, for lack of a better term, how the sausage gets made, but not the kind of, not the kind of level in which it does so in, in monk politics in Burma.
Host 1:24:19
And what does differentiate it? You talked a little bit before about the kind of the guise of the rhetoric and the form it needs to take, but in Are there any other elements or components of why you think that these monastic politics are are just so sharp and so biting and so clever, in a way that in a decade in Washington, you haven't seen anything comparable? That's just a stunning statement?
Jack Myint 1:24:46
Well, yeah, because and I think a lot of it has to do with you know, when you when you move, from keeping with keeping things local and community of which I was how it has always been to when it gets played at the next level as a political game by the military, the minute that it becomes a political game, then you have money, interest groups, you know, influence assessor accessories and real estate, physical or metaphorical. Right. All of that comes into play. And I mean, it's it's really it really was a long drawn out political campaign. Right that the who owns the say, on race and religion, that as soon as you put that out there because that that moves that moves people that when, you know, when the when we had, I don't want to say we had democracy, but when we had a guise of democracy or something is not entirely authoritarian. Let's put it that way. When we had that. The What's the main issue? What's the conflict that will drive the political debate? You need to find something else? It you know, and economics is not sexy enough? Because it's not danger at your door? It's not? It's not? It's certainly important. And you know, there were multi prong approaches to figure out well, we need to get our economy ahead. But everybody, every side agrees with that, you know, every side, it doesn't matter who you ask. Sure. No, democracy supporter, anyone really mean the rebel out in the jungle? Yeah, they'll tell you Oh, yeah, we need we need to improve our economy, they get that we can, you know, get to a level where we are operating at a at a level and equal playing field, at the very least at the regional level, if not at a global level that that much understood. So what is the tension, right, that can be created to feed this political debate, because you need issues and you need Well, you know, the same way, the emergence of the cultural wars in the United States, and we can talk about that until the cows come home. But similar, quite similar to that, I think, you know, they needed to feed that. And it's already, you know, pre existing notions and people's mindset. So that's something that could easily be capitalized on and when, when that becomes the long driven political campaign with the resources behind it, the fight for that, those resources and the fight for those, you know, pockets of power by those who, on the surface, reject power and everything. So are anything determine or define as humanly and earthly possessions? That's non drum right? And to be able to do that while still maintaining a base or justifying the continued you know, standing original teachings. That's a balance that's very hard to maintain. I thought, I don't want to get into specifics. I know that's what you're looking for. And I you know, I do want to go back home one day and I will never point fingers at a at a monk leader or a collective group of mine, for sure, but they are the way that the leadership of the monkhood have been politicized. And in a way I would argue, trapped politically trapped by the military's maneuver is sad development in this page of Myanmar's history
Host 1:29:23
Yeah, thank you for that and I and to be clear, I definitely would never want to prompt you or another lay guests to be specific about a criticism towards a specific monastic that's that's very sensitive and fragile ground some guests have gone on their on their on their own volition at a at a time of revolution like this where they just really felt the need to put something out there but I would never want to set something up knowing the delicacies involved and also myself coming from a background I mean, my The reason I came to Myanmar in the first place was meditation. My first love of wanting to be in this country and society was based on And this is where the origins of the mindfulness movement started. So I, it's also been my own inner journey to have to reconcile my respect and reverence for what brought me there with the complicated messiness of the existence of that reality. And so much of what we try to do on this platform, among other tasks is to try to get into that messiness and talk about it in a respectful but honest way. And that's, that's always a bit challenging to do. But I think any effort does help and being able to shine a light on a very important part of Myanmar, that's often not discussed with I think the level of knowledge and, and insight in looking at it and trying to understand it, because it just always finds a way to elude some kind of understanding. So I appreciate your your time and analysis on that. And at the same time, also want to get back to your journey. These have been very interesting and important. tangents that we've been able to walk down that have definitely taught me a lot and given me a lot to think about. I want to get to what brought you to America, how you got there. And then what you've been doing since perhaps the one of the best ways to do that is to start with your window into American culture in Yangon, which came in the form of the American Center. So tell us about how you found the American Center and what kind of beacon that offered to you at the time. And then what propelled you to transition from middle class lower middle class, as you describe, kind of coming from that background and Myanmar to having lived in DC for a decade and what you've been doing there.
Jack Myint 1:31:42
Oh, yes. So when I was I really discovered the American Center at at 14 when I was 14 years old and you know, back then you needed to have matric have passed. matriculation was pretty much. You'd have to be a high school graduate in order to get a membership at the American Center. And well, I think it's that the you can, you can take the kid out of Shwedagon talking to tourists, but you can never take that spirit out of him is the same mentality where well, what do you got to lose? Yeah, you know, you never, you don't get the things you don't ask for. So through through some family context, and we managed to, I managed to attend a culture event, it was a dance, I think, where the public affairs officer of a The American Center at that time was present as well. And I introduced myself and I said, you know, I, I really am sick and tired of either one not getting access to probably books or to read in redacted ones. Yeah, I mean, by any chance, even if just for the purpose of using your library that you could let me in. And here are the books that I'd like to read. And here's why. And she looked at some of them. And she was. So these are my favorites, too. And we started a conversation. And she said, why don't you come by the office one of these days, and we'll see what we can do. And it started was a conditional membership, right? So he's like, we'll give you a little library card, and you can come and rent books that you'd like, or if you feel that some of the books are too dangerous to bring outside. Why don't you just sit and read here? We'll create a little space for you. Wow, I was I was like, This is so exciting. And I loved it. That, you know, once you're in, you're at right, you go into, you know that, you know, well, at least officially, no one's following you. They're like, No, no one. You know, they have they have security and checks at the front. So, you know, at least from uniformed guard uniformed military police, you're safe from and and it's American soil, right, technically. So you kind of you feel a either you feel a sense where you don't have to look, watch over your back every two minutes, in the sense, right. Right. Right. And that it's so with the books, but then it's really the game changer was the book clubs. We had an every Wednesday there was a book every Wednesday, Wednesday, last Wednesday of every month. We had a book club of celebrated writers of political activists, former president and some poets, artists, celebrities, that just came by to sit around and you know, have some snacks and talk about a book they choose of the month, we win Maya Angelou through, all the way down to down. It's like Dan Brown, it didn't matter. It was a place where people gathered and just had a safe haven of conversation for two hours, every evening, and that was the highlight of my every week for a solid two years. That was, it was so exciting. It was so exciting. Because when I was a younger, so there was like, you know, there was a gimmick, you factor to a tour, I was like, what, what's this kid doing? And all these are really experienced, really smart people who, you know, you see on TV sometimes, like sometimes, you know, you've heard about, you've heard that names, whispered, you know, what movement this person participated in that spent 20 years. Now, amnesty, and she's just sitting there next to you. And, you know, and that, that that to me, was it an curious person like mine with, you know, so many questions, unlimited questions on it, it was it was habit, it was the safe haven, and it was him. And I enjoyed every minute of it. And that's why I made a lot of connections, a lot of what I learned a lot from, from various intellectuals and academics and activists, on, you know, their vision for the country and their vision for our future and what can be done within this reality. Right. And, you know, they they were gracious on their part to, you know, it was almost became a standard question where everyone in the middle or sometimes at the end of the dialogue, would the whole room would turn to me and go, so why does the youngest member of the group think, oh, shoot, now I have to prepare an answer. And that helped, that really helped, too, because you know, you're going in, you're going to have a space to say, you're going to have a, because there was no one that's under I think there was no one under 30 or 40, in that room, and I was the only one only teenager there. So it for them to it was I'm sure the first few things I said made absolutely no sense. But whether out of again, simple graciousness, or amusement, they kept it and left it going and it wasn't dismissed. It was you know, unlike most of other societies were commonplace. Usually, when you're a child, you know, your place you are seen but not heard. That that was when that is the norm. And when now you have these people that society writ large considers leaders and intellectuals actually turning to you and saying, okay, so what do you have to say about that? And it doesn't matter what it is you're talking about, you feel well, you better get your act together. Or, or else I don't, I don't even know what the consequence of not being giving it. The proper thought and having done the homework was just don't take that chance. And and that honed, you know, my ability to think deeper political to Well, again, do my homework and those interactions led me to the some officials from attending this booklet from the US Embassy recommending my name. Through their Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs. They got me selected to the first ever Southeast Asia youth leadership program that that they hosted this was before way before, like, you may recall the Wicd program that President Obama announced the Young Southeast Asian Leaders Initiative. This preceded that, okay, this was an early program that allowed me to come to the United States for a month and, you know, took a few seminars at the Northern Illinois University in DeKalb. And then after that, a week in Washington DC, engaging with entities that are involved in the ASEAN space and and just get a small glimpse with a movie we toured a few, you know, congressional offices as well, but it offers a glimpse, a glimpse of it What, what it's like, what it's like outside of my first country to you imagine the first time outside it was it was in America, and it was it was overwhelming, but it was also really addictive in the sense that, wait, you know, it's now it's not just a room of by that time, I mean, it was a room of people that, you know, you already know, and you have somewhat cordial friendship friendly relations friendly relationships with in that book club, it's not just your members of the book club. Now you have people who want you to share your thoughts about your country, your region, and your region and your country in correlation to the US and you want to take it a step further in the correlation to well, global dynamics. All it takes her otherwise, I mean, now you it's an elevated level of dialogue, my first ever and then I was able to participate in and then also expose me to what the American education system of, you know, open debate, I mean, you ask this and, and you see, you know, freshmen can have an open debate with a senior or, or even the professor. So, that, to me, was just, it was just something so intoxicating about it. And, and I said, Well, you know, it may be a month visit, but I am coming back here to do this for longer term. And I mentioned that's a whole story in itself on, on how I how my journey to study in the United States to through the internet shutdowns yanked through Princeton reviews, best 373 colleges in the United States and sort of just figuring out what made the most well well, one you look at the rankings and then to, you know, you you look at the price and you know, it's lower to mid tier then you draw on it, sometimes I forget the name even like, oh, this sounds like a nice name to you know, go to college I kid you not that was as simple as the applications that apply to over 30 colleges and universities. And Henry with all my applications, and wow, of them several row back and many of them not anywhere close to the level of scholarship and support that Washington and Jefferson college was able to provide. And of course, other additional scholarships, which enable me to study my finished my undergraduate education here with doubt, any financial support from
Host 1:43:12
home. That's amazing.
Jack Myint 1:43:15
I know we would like literally right in the middle of how we want to frame this and the next next part of it being okay after college, you know, exposure to American society and culture and then and then the work environment being working on Myanmar my Well, well, and also not to mention dogs and switches, Nobel prize fund funding my schooling, and then having the opportunity to have met her and being being her chaperone during her visit to the, to the US and then committing to her or, more, more. So offering my service to come back and serve the country in a public capacity right, directly to her being turned down. Because I was quote, unquote, too young, too naive. But then she was right in that assessment, you know, figuring out a way to continue supporting and doing my part here to bring quality American investments and opportunities to the Myanmar market while working with you know, like minded policy makers in the quasi civilian government that we had to work together on legislation and policies that that opened up the market and created opportunities for our youth to my last meeting with her in 2019 at her home, where I half jokingly or in half seriously, of course, asked her Okay, well, the Do you think I'm ready now? Mother was what She said to her, she said, Let's talk after the election. I saw this. And then, of course to Today were in a post coup Myanmar. What are the, you know, what are the options? Right? Is there a way out? Well, I appreciate you making the time. And once again, I can't stress this enough that thank you for continuing to shine a much needed light on the Myanmar story. I know that with the, you know, greater geopolitical challenges that supersede the issue of our time. Hours tend to fade in the background. And as we speak, cycle culture has wiped out many communities in the country, particularly Rakhine state that have been hit the hardest, and you'll see international coverage media and otherwise on the matter pretty much non existent. And not saying that, you know, that our problems are particularly unique, but it is heartwarming, and it is so nourishing, to have people who continue to champion and advocate for our cause.
Host 1:46:33
Thank you, thank you for that. I mean, it's what we're set up to do, it's, it's the only thing that we're trying to do is to just try to have these conversations that can inform the people that are already caring, and that can also reach out of the usual bubble, and engage new people in new ways of you know, dynamic storytelling and commentary. So you know, just thank you for being a part of of that being being a piece and a voice that shares that greater whole. Yeah, this has been so great and so educational, to hear everything about your background, where you came from. And it's what it's really doing is it's really setting us up. And as we look at the clock right now is we're running out of time, because we went into such wonderful detail about some of the background and some of the context of your life growing up in Myanmar society and the monkhood is wonderful and no regrets there. I learned so much myself. But we're running out of time to be able to tell your more recent story, and also the more recent story of Myanmar. So I think what we'll do is we'll we'll put a cap on this here, this will be the episode and we'll make a plan to meet again, and do a part two of this to be able to spend more time going into those areas that I just think are so important and that are really relevant to our current time. So let's make this the end of part one, look forward to part two. And thank you so much, again, for taking this time to come on here and talk to us and it's just been so valuable.
Jack Myint 1:47:57
That thank you that thank you Host for, for one, your indulgence with my long winded Vnus. And, but more importantly Host for for your continued efforts towards shining the light on the Myanmar issue. I know with the political crises and issues of our time, sometimes the Myanmar issue tends to disappear to the background or some case dim in the background and really having champions such as yourself who continue to look out for the cause. It it keeps us going. And you know, as we speak, there's a cyclone cyclone Moccia that has simulated communities through decimated sorry, decimated communities across Myanmar, particularly in Rakhine State, where the damage is particularly jarring. So whatever the crisis may be, humanitarian, environmental or political. It is in some way, shape or form. I know that the onus is on us, Mr. People to walk our walk and fight our own battles, but it is helpful to know that they are friends of Myanmar who care who will continue to care and try to support in any way that they can throughout. That's, that's encouraging. And I think the leadership of individuals such as yourself, and the success of podcasts such as this, how So I think
Host 1:50:25
for whatever reason, even as the conflict and Myanmar continues to worsen, it somehow continues to be shut out of the Western media news cycle. And even when the foreign media does report on the conflict, it's often presented as a reductionist, simplistic caricature that inhibits a more thorough understanding of the situation. In contrast, our podcast platform endeavors to portray a much more authentic, detailed and dynamic reality of the country and its people, one that nurtures deeper understanding and nuanced appreciation. Not only do we ensure that a broad cross section of ideas and perspectives from Burmese guests regularly appear on our platform, but we also try to bring in foreign experts, scholars and allies who can share from their experience as well. But we can't continue to produce this consistency and at the level of quality we aim for without your help. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need to post donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or your mark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission that are Burma. And the donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar available at a local crafts.com Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's a local crafts spelled a LOKCR a ft s one word a local crafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support
1:53:41
alone
1:53:52
in my house whatever Iran UNGA we're gonna do we are done and the reason is that we got busier and busier yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda No, no