Transcript: Episode #179: A Post-Coup Thriller (Bonus Shorts)
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been manually reviewed by a human reader. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially applicable to speakers with stronger accents, as the AI may have more difficulty accurately interpreting and transcribing their speech. Consequently, it is advised not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamps to verify the precise words spoken by the guest.
Host 00:16
When we established an online shop as part of our better Burma nonprofit, we chose to prioritize working with artisans from disadvantaged and vulnerable backgrounds, because we know just how hard it can be to survive at the margins of society in Myanmar. We work with people with disabilities, mothers who have contracted HIV AIDS, civil servants on CDM ethnic and religious minorities and more. Your purchase there will not only go to support their livelihood, but also our wider humanitarian and media missions as well. Please take a moment to visit our shop. A local crafts.com That's a loca A L Okay, a crafts C R A F t s.com. local crafts one word.com. With that, let's get into our show.
01:32
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Host 02:11
And welcome to this episode of Inside Myanmar Podcast. I'm here with the author Brian clean Borg who has recently published a book and novel part of it takes place in Myanmar, which we'll be talking about. So Brian, thanks so much for taking the time to join us and chat a little bit here.
Brian Klingborg 02:27
Thank you for having me. Yeah, so
Host 02:29
before we get into the particular book, wild prey were part of the book takes place in post coup. Myanmar, I should mention. Let's talk about the series where this takes place. This is a a suspense series detective series involving a deputy chief inspector Liu Fei, a Chinese detective, will tell us a bit about what that series is, who the main character is, and how in your background and interest and why and how you started a series around this character.
Brian Klingborg 02:59
Sure, so the series is currently a trilogy, the third book just came out. It's called the magistrate. And the series is set in the north of China primarily near Harbin city, which is not so far from the Russian border, very cold place. Sometimes it's called the city of ice. And our protagonist is a Chinese police officer, I call him an inspector just because that's a cool title. But his official title is Deputy Chief of a small Police Department in a township outside of her being 40 or 50 miles outside of heartbeat. And he is like many fictional police officers or detectives, sensually honest guy who seeks to mete out justice as best he can in an often unjust society or unjust political situation. So the series is about him and the different things that he goes through. But my goal is really to use it not only to hopefully entertain, and to tell a good story, but also to illuminate some of the interesting aspects of modern Chinese society and culture, politics and economics and to really use the setting and make it intrinsic to every plot.
Host 04:30
Right, yeah, that's interesting. And I you do have a background in East Asian Studies and and so I'm wondering with your background and your interests, how you decided upon a protagonist, the small, small town, small setting of a police officer who's trying to do right and caught in greater system behind him and the tensions that in relationship between that that loud in the books what what in your background led you to wanting to come? Come up with a narrative like this.
Brian Klingborg 05:02
Well, I studied, I come from a small town in California. And there, you know, growing up, there wasn't much to do this was before the internet, and cell phones and things like that. So I read a lot and books were really sort of my escape in my way to get a picture into the wider world. And later, when I went to college, I started to study Mandarin, just sort of on a whim. And that opened up a whole new world to me, because the language and the culture are so intertwined. And I come from, you know, a very homogeneous, America, small town, American background. So for me to be steeped in the culture was something that was really interesting. And I just found it invigorating. So I ended up spending time overseas, living and working in Taiwan, and majoring in Chinese cultural anthropology and studying mostly pre modern history, Chinese society and religion, just because it interested me. And then I spent the next, you know, couple of decades of my life not doing anything with that. So, you know, I had to get a job. So I worked in publishing and wrote on the side, and at some point, I decided, you know, I had always written, but not very seriously, and I decided to get serious about it at some point. So I started writing. I had written screenplays, one of them was some screenplay called Kill Devil falls, which is about a female US Marshal, who gets trapped in this remote decommissioned mining town in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. And I turned that into a novel, and that got published fairly quickly. And it went out of print fairly quickly. So, you know, I subsequently wrote several more books that didn't even get picked up by publishers until I happened upon the idea of, hey, why don't I leverage all these years I spent living and working abroad, and try and do something a little bit unique and a little bit different. So in setting out to write these books, I wanted to not only use my academic background and my living experience by want to try and do something that I hadn't seen very many mystery or thriller writers do. There's lots of mystery, or, or especially thriller, spy novels, that touch on China or have Chinese characters, but those are all from the perspective of Westerners. And so I wanted, you know, as risky as it was, I wanted to create a Chinese character who had a Chinese mindset was relatable to a foreign audience, but still fundamentally a product of his culture and upbringing. And use that as you know, a means to sort of delve into some of the more interesting aspects of Chinese culture and politics, keeping in mind that if you're writing a crime novel, or a mystery novel, you're always dealing with bad people doing bad things. So you know, that's something that you have to do, but I try to balance it out as much as possible by making well rounded characters and, and, you know, trying to create believable plot points and things like that.
Host 08:29
Right, yeah. And that's in reading. As I read through the books, it was first things that reminded me of I'm not sure if you're familiar with James Church's series, the inspector Oh, novels that take place in North Korea that that really give us a sense of North Korean culture and feel at least I've never been there. But at least it puts me there in the context of this, these these kinds of spy novels that are that are taking place. And of course, we haven't gotten to to Myanmar yet, but it's just kind of interesting to know that one of the in Aung San su cheese, longtime house arrest and what she did during that, during all the time that she was alone, a little bit has come out with that. And one of the things that came up as their guilty pleasure was reading spy novels, and she really liked to do arguably Christie and some of the other ones. So a little bit of a Myanmar connection there. But before we get into this novel, we're part of it's set in Myanmar, just to stay in the China theme, where and looking at you know, this is a you have experience in China, Chinese culture, politics and society and such. And you're obviously a small town, Chinese police detective who is the protagonist. And so in, you have a plot that's taking place and all of these stories and things that happen to the characters, but there's this deeper, richer background setting of wanting to impart certain things and features and knowledge about Chinese society and modern Chinese society where it's going, where it's coming from, and some of those tensions inherent. So from your background of have and lived in China and studied things about the country and society. What were some of those elements that you wanted to get across to the reader through the background of what was actually happening plot wise?
Brian Klingborg 10:11
Yeah, good question. I think I wanted to put a human face on Chinese citizens for foreign audience. So keep in mind that Chinese society has been changing rapidly and continues to change rapidly. It wasn't so long ago that it was, you know, pre communist period than a post communist period with a lot of upheaval and turmoil than economic changes, which have caused their own kinds of upheavals and turmoil. And now we're entering a new phase, you know, with a new leader and a new, even more autocratic way of government and a top down management system. But I remember and have noticed, you know, traveling through China that the Chinese populace is fed a pretty steady stream of anti American propaganda. So you know, even Chinese people joke, there's three government broadcasts a day for an hour, the first half an hour is about how great China is, the second half an hour is about how terrible America is. And you know, they, they de acknowledged this, meanwhile, you have something similar here in the US, I've seen, you know, certain political figures. Use China, you always, when you're trying to control people, you always need an other an enemy, somebody to rally the troops toward. And so that's something that I've seen of late in the United States. Now, I think both sides have some valid points and grievances. But it does become a tool in the hands of the government to keep your populace sort of oriented to the outside instead of the inside. So one of the things I wanted to do was just kind of present a small town in China, in the hopes that I could talk about the feelings and the emotions and the paradoxes and the grievances that your average Chinese citizen might have, they go through their day, trying to feed themselves have a job, cut through red tape, all those sorts of things. So it's, it's not a monolithic society where everybody thinks or feels a certain way. And that was really one of the goals that I was setting out with these books.
Host 12:44
Right? Yeah, that's great. So let's get to this. I think it's the second book in the series wild prey where the plot point leads the protagonist to Myanmar. And tell us how you landed on Myanmar as a plot point in this?
Brian Klingborg 12:57
Well, it's kind of convoluted as our, you know, probably all books. But essentially, as I mentioned before, my the cachet of these books, I guess, is that I'm really trying to leverage and use the setting in a unique way to create plots that couldn't take place anywhere else. It couldn't be in Milwaukee, or Stockholm, for example. So I'm always looking for something that's kind of steeped in the culture. And you know, the end that I can then use to create fashion some kind of interesting story. I started writing this book during COVID. And so I knew that I would have to address COVID In the book, because you can't write a book set in China and just pretend. But I also knew that by the time this or I hope, by the time this book come out, came out that COVID would have diminished in its importance, and that people would not want to read about it, they wouldn't want to be a central plot point, they would be sick of it by that time. So I kind of had to, to walk this tightrope of incorporate it in some fashion, but not doing it in too heavy of fashion. And because the you know, the theory at the time was that COVID originated probably in a wet market where live animals were sold in Wuhan. I landed upon this idea of using illegal animal trafficking. And, you know, I can remember I went the first time I went to China was 1987. And this was, before it opened up, things were really different than and I did go through a wet mark. And I remember seeing all sorts of exotic animals there in cages, you know, which were for food and medical purposes. And the Chinese, like many cultures have a long tradition of using herbs and animal products for medicinal reasons, some of which may be valid, some of which probably aren't, but you know, it just seems something that was very intrinsically Chinese to talk about the illegal animal trade. And as I started to research that, you know, there's really a couple of hotspots. One, of course, would be Africa for rhino horns and ivory and things like that. The other one is Southeast Asia and in Southeast Asia, that would be Vietnam, Thailand, and Myanmar, primarily. And the more I researched it, the more I really became enthralled with the idea of using Myanmar because it has a very, very strong Chinese connection. Fascinating Chinese connection, Chinese citizens have been immigrating there for 200 years or more setting up businesses, and remaining fairly, ethnically Chinese. And then in the north, right on the border, you have these, you know, the wall state army, and you have these very ethnic at various ethnic enclaves, which are also culturally Chinese. So I just felt there was a good connection between the two countries. And that's that I just went down a wormhole. And that's where I ended up, actually.
Host 16:09
Right. Yeah, it was. It's the as I mentioned before, the interview is the first novel I've read, that actually references the coup happening as, as a fact of the world and as a plot point. And it's no surprise that it should, I mean, it's been two and a half years. But although for those of us who are caught in the movement, it's kind of like this timeless Vortex where it feels like in one sense, it feels like it was just yesterday, and in other ways, it feels like this is all we've ever known in the way the resistance and the conflict has gone since. But it kind of reminded me of I remember, you know, after 911, it was so surreal that happening, and it was, I don't remember what the first fictional fictional reference to that was. But I do remember, in some book, and then another time in a movie, referencing the 911 had taken place. And it was like, it was really weird, it was really eerie to kind of be in a fictionalized world, where the shocking thing in the real world was referenced the first time and the feeling I had, it was it was just a small reference, but just the feeling of reading a novel that reference that uku had taken place. It was like, you know, for me, it was like, Wait a second, like that was really like that's an a novel. And, you know, but then it's, it's been two and a half years. Of course, that's enough time for, for novels to come out in this way. It actually reminds me of to not speak of novels, but there was a poetry book that came out about a year after the coup, then we did a trying to remember the name of the book, picking off picking off fresh shoots will not stop the spring was what it was called a reference to how the spring revolution is coming. And if you if you just pick off the fresh shoots, meaning you kill the the young activist, it's not going to stop the revolution from coming spring still going to come spring revolution is still going to come and I remember talking to the the Brian Hammond who was the who had made the the anthology of the different print out there, we both commented upon how important it was to have a physical book rather than a you know something online because it was it was just all the more real and tangible this this had happened. So that was just from me reading it, just that small reference was brought brought that all back into this just the reality of this happening now in fictionalized worlds too. But But getting back to your process of of choosing this plot point and then researching you, you just kind of inferred some of the research that you took to learn more about the Myanmar China relations and, and the wild animal trafficking and, and similarity with societies and the border and such. So tell us a bit more about the research that you undertook. And then what stood out to you, as you were thinking about where the research that you were looking at would fit into the fabric of what you wanted, right in your narrative, what was standing out as things that you didn't know, or things that were surprising or things that were just would fit into the story that you wanted to tell?
Brian Klingborg 19:07
Yeah, so you know, keep in mind that wild prey was written, you know, two more than two years ago, you know, takes a year to write and it takes a year to come out. So the coup was relatively fresh, and I didn't really know where it would be going. And I just have that in the prologue where I try to, again, put a human face on, you know, a citizen who's kind of caught up in the turmoil of what it must be like to just to try to feed your family in a place where the government has, you know, shut down universities has got students in the street has maintained this isolationist central planning government system for years, just when democratic process was beginning. You know, shut it down. And just the desperation that it forces people to turn to things like poaching to make a living. So that's what I kind of wanted to get at with that prologue is, you know, the guy in the beginning, who's a poacher is not an evil person. He's just trying to do right by his family. So yeah, so I had probably, you know, because I've studied the region was not unfamiliar with the history in a general sense of Myanmar, and the fact that it's a fascinating place filled with lots of lots of different ethnicities, we're constantly agitating for a bit more autonomy. You know, which is arguably what led to the initial coup from, from my understanding, all those years ago, 1962, I guess it was, but from my standpoint of studying China, you know, it's this connection with China, even to the extent that in 1950, you know, 1949, the communists ran the KMT out and around 1950, you had KMT soldiers, the other side of that civil war, right, moving into North Myanmar, and setting up a little enclave there, and my understanding, you know, their descendants are still there. And then, as you research, you know, the wall state army and the Shan State and things like that, you come to understand that it's a tangled web between China and Myanmar. So China's kind of playing both ends against the middle, they support the central government, but they also support these Chinese ethnic enclaves, which often rebel against the central government, when supply them with weapons and tactical information and enjoy having kind of, I guess they would having some influence and a potential agitator in a different nation, you know, in their back pocket. So I've just found it to be a very interesting political situation. And I get into that just a little bit in wild prey, when our protagonist is sent down to try and find the source of illegal animal trafficking. And it's told by a government government minister, that the Chinese government doesn't really have the will to shut shut all that down, because they are, you know, making use of these people who are engaged in illegal activities in Myanmar just for their own purposes. Yeah, so just really the connection between China and Myanmar and of course, it's a fascinating place with tragic history. You know, and we all hope that, that things can change sometime in the near future.
Host 23:00
Right, and get into the Myanmar portion of the book, you you have the Burmese people, the ethnic people, they're definitely not the more but the ethnic people that are involved in these criminal criminal enterprises of what they're not just the animal trade, but the whole enclave and organization that they have there. It's not clear in the book, and that that feels intentional in knowing exactly where they're located or which ethnic group they are. There there is one character kind of a female warlord leader that's probably described in more detail than any of the other ethnic characters there. But were you were you modeling this group and this leader off of particular people? Or was it just a morphus? In terms of the general ethnic characters that you were researching? Or what were your thoughts and how you were creating the those, that the portion of those people in Myanmar for the book,
Brian Klingborg 23:53
some of it was based on actual drug lords that have operated in that area, you know, in the in the 70s, and the 80s. And some of it was modeled on the wall state army apparatus that's there. And then for the female warlord, you know, another thing. Another thing that I've tried to do in my books, as much as possible is to pay respects and proper due to female characters whenever possible. So often, if you're writing about China, for example, you know, there are a lot of women in government or in high positions of power. And so you have to think of ways to incorporate female characters into your book, which shows that they're multi dimensional characters that they have some agency that they're just not, you know, at the beck and whim of the men in society. So I kind of became enamored of this idea of a female warlord Word who has engaged in in criminal behavior but But what she's doing is kind of carving out a society for women in a very masculine, alpha male type world. So she's got some motivations there to kind of rescue and rehabilitate lost women. And there are several, you know, role models. One is this woman I came across, are you familiar with all of Yang are all gone? Yeah, there
Host 25:35
is a biography that just came out about her. Okay. So,
Brian Klingborg 25:37
you know, the fascinating person born in 1927, non binary defined gender norm right across dresser and led an army that called themselves all of his boys and called her uncle olive. And, you know, she was she was connected to the the KMT, she was connected to various rebels, she was connected to the CIA, she was involved in the drug business, and just kind of a fascinating cultural figure. So there's, there are various people that that I modeled that character on, but nobody in particular.
Host 26:21
Right, and in terms of like, the ethnic or geographic region, was there. Was there anything on your mind? Or was it meant to just be kind of kind of vague drawing upon the backdrop of the various characters of the different ethnic and regional places out there?
Brian Klingborg 26:33
Yeah, what it you know, it gets confusing for an outsider to parse all the different ethnic groups, but I think I referenced that she had a Chinese father, and a Thai mother, Thai being of ethnic group in Yunnan Province. So yeah, I didn't have anything specific in mind, I wanted her to be a bit of mysterious character, and a bit of a chameleon.
Host 26:59
And I think one thing that comes out in the book is, is not just going to Myanmar and not and not just the, the fact and the phenomenon of this border trade and the legal activities and the, the trafficking and wild animals and such. But also, there's a sense of like, the the way that the different Chinese characters are thinking about Myanmar, you know, which to me kind of seemed reminiscent of like the way some Americans might think about Mexico or something just just kind of a dark place down south where there's different rumors and fears and, and even attractions to what that offers. And the different Chinese characters have have different levels of knowledge about Myanmar and also different different feelings about what the country is to them. So as someone who is more China centric and has spent more years in studying China and being aware of, of Chinese culture and people what what feeling, how would you characterize what the kind of average feeling on the street is? And obviously, it's not monolithic, but just the various shapes that it can take of kind of that Chinese as your protagonist is not a high government official, but it's just kind of a normal dude, that's that's how you've made him have kind of the normal dude feeling of a range of Chinese perceptions of what Myanmar represents something that's so close, and that they've had these long standing ties for so long. How would you characterize how that comes across?
Brian Klingborg 28:28
Well, not to get too wonky about it. I think your average Chinese citizen doesn't think too much about me and Mar, I think the Chinese government does because of the resources there. And because its strategic location, it's located its proximity to the Indian Ocean, things like they're always looking for ports and things like that for military reasons, which is probably why they support the Myanmar government, but your average citizen doesn't really think about it too much. However, in the south, you have this interesting scenario where parts like border towns became like a Las Vegas I refer to that in one particular town mon LA, just across the border, they actually will have the I don't know if they currently have this, but they would have busloads of Chinese tourists, mostly men who would go down there and get on a bus and cross into mon LA where they would drink Tiger bone wine, their, you know, gamble and you know, pick up prostitutes basically. And I read somewhere you know, a lot of the research I did was reading accounts by journalists reading some government documents, you know, public I don't have any secret access or anything. I'm just You know, reading what I could. And it's kind of funny, they would talk about how these gambling establishments rose up and Chinese citizens were going down there and losing lots of money. And so that particular area, the power comes through China. And when things got too bad, the Chinese government would just shut the power down. So all the gambling establishments would have to shut down for a couple of weeks, and the tours wouldn't go there. So yeah, I think probably most Chinese citizens don't think about it. But if they do, it's, it's this connotation of oh, this is a vague This is Tijuana. Like you, you had it, right? It's Tijuana. You know, you can get animal products there, you can get ivory, you can get young girls, you can eat all kinds of things that you can't legally eat in China. So yeah, that's probably what they're thinking.
Host 30:58
Yeah. And definitely, as the protagonist realizes gradually more and more with the turning of every page that he's going to have to actually go there himself you there's this kind of wild west terror that starts to come over him especially and that and to be fair, that's not that's probably more characterizing those northern Myanmar regions that are not really have any, the Bomar government in Yangon and apt as it is now doesn't have any authority over but the more lawless territories that he's going to?
Brian Klingborg 31:29
Yeah, yeah, yeah, unfortunately, didn't have time to go. Like I said, when you write a crime novel, you're writing about bad people doing bad thing. And that's something that you have to be conscious of, especially as a Westerner writing about the east. And that's why I endeavor as much as possible to create characters that are well rounded, and to also always have some, you know, a motivation and a positive aspect, even to my villains, very few of my villains are just 100% bad, they always have a reason for doing what they're doing. And always try to provide some, you know, kind of human facet to their personality.
Host 32:13
Yeah, I mentioned James church before I realized another name I left out that it reminded me of John Burnett and his his Bangkok series that definitely bring out the vices of, of Bangkok and Thai life and society and individuals that are kind of working within that.
Brian Klingborg 32:30
Yeah, his books do you know, I really liked Bangkok, a the other books weren't as good. But they cognate was kind of a revelation because I thought he did a phenomenal job of creating a mindset that transition to East in the West is protagonist. And I thought his protagonist, the ways protagonist described the world in Buddhist terms. Yeah, was really fascinating and unique.
Host 32:58
Yeah, I agree. I also thought the series went on, that didn't really know what to do with it as the books went on. But I thought the first couple books, I think Bangkok tattoo was the first one I read, even though it was the second book, and it just blew me away. I mean, just as a, as a westerner who had a long standing interest in in Buddhism, and especially Asian Buddhism, and as someone who had spent half of my life living in Asia, and largely in Myanmar, in Japan, the the way that he was able to care to have a character that was part of both worlds, not just physically but also in his psyche, and the way he was able to express that. And to really get it kind of those subtle interactions of, of tie society and how different Eastern and Western ways looks at that. Yeah, it blew me away. And that was actually kind of the hook that started me getting into more of these crime novels that were taking place. With crime novels outside of America, I was gonna say, in Asia specifically, and that's true, but also just starting to see the crime novel as a vehicle for not just plot but for where you placed it and how you can, as you did how you can you can have these other elements of context and culture coming into it.
Brian Klingborg 34:06
Yeah, and that that is exactly what I was trying to do is create a character that was relatable, but also very much a product of where he comes from. And that is a way to explore, you know, a different mindset. Provide a window as much as possible, keeping in mind that there's only so much you can do in a novel, especially a novel which is plot driven and action driven and things like that. So yeah, that's very much my been my goal as well.
Host 34:37
Yeah, that's great. I really appreciate the time in hearing about this. And again, to listeners, the book is wild prey that we're talking about. And for those listeners that want to find out more about you what links or social media accounts would you guide them to?
Brian Klingborg 34:52
I have a Twitter account, but I also have a website. It's Brian clean borg.com Just be our eye ANKL i n g o rg.com. So that's where I keep all my updated reviews, interviews and things like that.
Host 35:09
Great. And we'll also be referencing those in the show notes so people can get there with just a click. So yeah, with that, thanks for taking the time to chat with us and talk about this book in particular and your understanding of Chinese Burmese relations and how that came out. And this narrative, it's been great.
Brian Klingborg 35:25
Thank you so much for having me.
Host 35:47
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39:59
Get out Ya know whatever Ira Nanga we're gonna do we're done and the reason is that we got busier and busier Oh blah yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda no no