Transcript: Episode #180: Cooking Up a Revolution

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Host  00:09

May Allah for any Burmese language speakers tuning in today, we wanted to let you know that our better Burma mission has launched three Burmese language podcasts, Myanmar, revolutionary Till's dark era of Burma, and Myanmar, peace, women insecurity. These programs can be found on our website, as well as on any of your preferred podcast platforms. We invite you to take a listen. But for now, let's get on with this episode.

Trish  00:35

So I just start by saying I'm Trish. And I am the owner of currently like the mama. But I had my business called pole for men's back in Yangon pre coup. And so I got involved in code just because while I didn't see a purpose in continuing my business, and not knowing the audience that I was serving, so consumers wise, it was quite hard to tell whether who they work for and like, you know, what, what, what groups that they support. And second of all, when all the protests happening, then I was also out protesting as well. And I saw there was a need, there were so many hungry protesters. And yeah, there were other people donating and stuff like that. But also, I have an empty kitchen that's not being used. And I realized to myself, I'm like, if I'm not serving food to customers, and I still have my staffs, and I still want to pay my staff. Then I figure out, you know what, like, just let me just cook really simple stuff. And then funding wise, I'm lucky enough to have friends in FMB industry who are able to get the word out. Low key to so we just post up on Instagram story, and round up for money. A man, you know, one thing leads to another. She started her own fundraising stuff. And then she also has a kitchen. So we all we all kind of like collaborated on our own. And then we were able to serve about like, 5000 protesters in total. And yeah, like so that's all the others where it all started. Yeah. And then I stopped just because while I was out donating food, it got a bit dangerous, because they recognize my face. And yeah, that's, that's when I stopped.

Host  03:03

Right? Yeah, great. Thanks for sharing that. So as the protests happen, and you were, well, I first the coup happened. And then that's followed several days later by these nonviolent mass protests all over the city. And I did so many interviews at the time and talk to so many people. And it's really bringing me back to that context of this the shock of it happening, followed by this mindset of, okay, where do I fit in? What do I do? Do I do I do this part, or I do that part, and people realizing not everyone needs to do the same thing. You know, we talked to I don't know if you know, in town, so but we had him on just several weeks afterwards. And he was involved in like organic composting and such like that. And he and his wife decided they were just going to clean the streets. That was their job, they were going to pick up trash. That's all they did is they just picked up trash and left the streets cleaner than when they arrived. So you you fit into this role, because that's what you do of cooking and serving food. So have you ever cooked food for for that many people all at once before in that quantity?

Trish  04:06

Before? Yes, I have. I have. Well, I my background, I come I chef and I will professionally for six years prior to the coup. Sorry, no, actually seven years prior to the coup. So yeah, we we had like different events and like, you know, like big, like seminars that we were serving to people and stuff like that. But it was never that you are paid to serve food right before but now this is like I'm willing to donate this amount of food and I'm doing it on my own terms. And like, this is something that I truly believe that, you know, people gotta like, continue whatever they're like, whatever that they're doing, and then I'm just, like you said, trying to find a foot in how I want to support quite in the best way that I can support, you know, so what I'm doing right now as well. Yeah.

Host  05:09

So you're cooking these massive amounts of food and giving them freely to the protesters. This is like a beautiful thing to do this is you know, Satan. Ah, this is this is really good well, and you know you're all you're doing is giving free food to nonviolent people assembled in the street. And yet that simple act is something our listeners loved growing up in free societies might not understand that simple acts put a target on you.

Trish  05:36

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because me I clearly, you know, there's no like, people don't like, well, the military supporters don't want any type of like, like, anyone supporting the protesters, right, like not discontinuing the fight. So, yeah, yeah.

Host  06:02

Right. And in what way you're shaped, did that threat manifest? How did you start to know that the simple act of just providing food was putting you at risk?

Trish  06:13

Um, when my neighbors because I was only protesting in my neighborhood. So I am familiar with the area and I have like, different exit strategy if like, should they be any attacks. So my neighbors, that which is good and bad at the same time, because they know my face, and I've been living in that area for a really long time. So yeah, my neighbors or were like, they started to warn me. And they were like, you know, what, like, there has been talks, blah, blah, blah, that, you know, they recognize you and they know, like, where you live, and all these talks, because, like, literally at the place that I live the next street, and there's a police station at the end of the street. So even though like the police, like don't like us, but at the same time, they are police, families and wise, like, you know, that knows each other, we all grew up in the same neighborhood. So as a good yeah, like, just like low key just warning people not to go like, you know, too crazy. So that's when I realized that, okay, I'm gonna take a step back. And also, I got, I was attacked by a smoke bomb. While I was donating food, and little did I know, like, it was, it was kind of like a wake up call, because I realized that I was not fit to, to be a protester, like, I don't really, I'm not really, like, I was a dreamer, you know, I mean, like, you, if you think about it, nobody was really trained for it. But me personally, just having that quick minded, like, you know, like finding exit strategy and whatnot. So I got caught in a smoke bomb, and then I almost got arrested. But I, I was lucky enough to have this one home, like, just dragged me into their home and then kept me for a few hours, while the police were raiding the entire entire place. So when I got back, it was it was something that was I was very shook, you know, and I had to ask myself, like, how, how can I support this without harming my family without harming myself? Putting myself in prison? Like, that's not going to help it? Like, that's not going to that's not going to be helpful. Right. So I gotta say, a life as well. And be safe. Also. Yeah. So I think that's when I decided to move to towards finding, like, focusing more on fundraising without having my identity shown. So yeah, and then one thing leads to another. I ended up moving to Bangkok, and then becomes a much safer choice. Because then, you know, the way especially when they started hunting down people, not because like, I've become like, such an important figure or anything, but it's just a matter of context. So if my other friends and associates, if they did get arrested, then you know, or if I get arrested, I don't want my friends in my contact list to get arrested that kind of thing. And or my family. So yeah, that's that's when I decided to make a move to Thailand. On the fifth of April. Yeah.

Host  09:56

Right. So you've been displaced for over two years now. Two years. Yep, yeah, like so many others that are around the world. And that are, that is just an ongoing displacement that one only hopes is not going to turn into something like the ADA generation of a short what people thought was a short term respite, it ended up being a generation and a life, you know, let's really hope that that's not the situation we all find ourselves in now.

Trish  10:23

Yeah, yeah, we really hope so. Sometimes I do think that like, Oh, this is a repetition of the past. And it's like it, but it's interesting too, because I get to, I become a lot closer with my parents because of the coup. And I also interested more connecting with my roots foodwise and that like urgency to really preserve my culture in a way and represent my culture in a different country. Because being in Thailand, too. It's there's there's a stereotype on Myanmar people that, you know, like we there's, there's a stereotype, you know, it's a different class, we're refugees, and then there. Yeah, so having me here and representing my culture with food is extremely important. And also like, knowing deeply about my culture and what it is

Host  11:29

for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot there. And it reminds me, you talked about how it made you connect more with your parents. And I did shortly after the coup. Just weeks after the coup, I did an interview with Mimi a who actually interviewed you several weeks after the coup. So somehow, we already had our own interconnections then, but one of the things that meaIs said that really stood out is when I asked her because she was, she was one of the really prominent people using her platform to really speak out daily and educate and share information. And I asked her, what response are you getting from the young Burmese? And her answer really surprised me? She said, Actually, they're saying thank you, because they many of them say that, that their their parents had told them about what this military was capable of when they were growing up. But of that younger generation, they never experienced it. And so they never really thought they never really believed in the reality of it. But now that they were experiencing it, just in those short weeks, and Mimi was also using her platform at that time to describe what was happening. She was saying that that young Burmese were coming to her and it was kind of tragically heartwarming, and what they were saying that they actually believed and connected with their parents about the reality of the terror.

Trish  12:43

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the that also, like a shocking. I think this revolution has become like infinitely like, like, I would say, like exponentially like, more revolutionary. Just because like, younger generation, like our generation, we don't want to repeat, I mean, obviously, we don't want this to be repeated to our kids. And also, that we're able to sympathize with our parents. And because it has always been a gap between especially Burmese parents, is that most of them don't really want their children to know the struggles that they went through. So they don't really talk about it. So there's a lot of trauma and in them that they completely shut down. And therefore, they think that that's protecting their children, right. But really, when we are like, this coup is happening to us to our generation. And we're like, okay, but we need to talk about this, you know, we need to talk about mental health, and there's a lot of so many other issues, cultural, too. That's been so suppressed. And then we're like, okay, we need to talk about it. We need to talk about the Rohingya we need to talk about we need to apologize to all other ethics and the so called like, people who in the jungle are labeled as rebels, but they're not really rebels. They're just protecting their their families. And then we're able to sympathize with a lot of people, you know, and we start to be a little bit selfless, in a way. Yeah.

Host  14:40

So those are a lot of really heavy themes that you just went over there. Where do all those themes intersect with food because you were saying that food has been your medium. You alluded to this earlier in the interview and your your social media posts really go into this in a lot more detail. That food has been your medium and entryway into these other con saps so in what way? Are you using food as that medium?

Trish  15:05

I'm basically community building. So I've noticed that it brings a lot of money, first of all, first moved to Bangkok. That was like the most easiest way to break through this, this whatever barrier it is, or like introduced to Allah do a pop up or a fundraising event. And that was like, Okay, let's, we gotta have some food. So that's an easy entry into conveying our messages. And making a political statement or like making an exit an art exhibition. So people, people warm up to it. So that's one thing. Second of all, is I've noticed that a lot of people who are displaced here, we're not thinking about short term haul, like we're taught, we're talking about, like a long term thing. So people start to miss home, right? And then like, there's no there's, there's, you can't really like even though they're like Burmese restaurants around, there's no sense of community, there's no sense of like, we miss going to someone else's house and eat for free, or we miss been invited to a hello, you know, like, donation thing that we normally do. So we miss that kind of vibe, where we just sit down and eat and pretty much talk bullshit. Just most of the time we talk, we would most of the time, we try not to talk about politics in these in these events, or like where the parties that I host mostly. And we just you know, like it's a time it's a bit of a break from whatever that they are dealing with. And they're able to destress in my food. And then remenham saying home, thinking of home late eating a bowl of my hangover, like, Oh, I miss mom now. And then you know, they go home, belly full and a little bit energized again for the next going back to whatever that they have to go back to. So I've noticed the power in that and energizing people in that sense. So yeah,

Host  17:25

you've described your work is using food as a medium that breaks down stereotypes. Can you expand on? In what way food? In what ways can food do that?

Trish  17:34

stereotypes? Okay, so when I first when I lived in Thailand, worked out to Thailand the past 10 years. A lot at the Myanmar is the closest country design Island. Come on. There hasn't been a single Burmese restaurant in Thailand that's like, oh, we gotta go eat Burmese food. You know, you see, like Vietnamese food. You You see, like, so many, like, great Japanese restaurant here. But what about Burmese food, it's the closest to us, but the people are not interested in us. And then and, and it's it's a they are brainwashed to think that Burmese food is like dirty, you know, unimportant. So and that's the way they think about food is also how they think about the people as well. And that becomes an issue. So for us to really raise awareness about whatever what's happening in Myanmar. You know, you gotta like start tracking down to like, you want this country Thai people to really care about our issue, then we got to start breaking down the stereotypes as well. And I find that food is like a very easy way to food storytelling and entice people into like talking about geopolitics or the route of like, you know, different like, let's do a Mohinga trail and I host like different food, stairs, food storytelling dinners, just to educate them about regional food, for example, that shows that just to tell them that we are diverse. You know, Myanmar is not just about like Mohinga or like Nehemiah is not just about Braemar people like Yangon, you know? And there's so many different ethnics as well. So that's when stereotype that I want for Thai people is that we are we are we are humans, like everyone else, you know. And second of all, another stereotype is within us I think it's a I don't even know what's it called, like reverse like, like, racial poor, but like, within within our Burmese community, you know, or, or even with, like, ethnic communities as well, you know, everything is so like, they, they they cling on to their little groups. Then people are like really proud of their chin, chin stuff and they care care and food and Korean people, you know, like the Korean food is amazing. Like, it is true. They're all amazing. They're like, You're wrong. Also even Bomar food right but because the mind is so predominant, and they claim they claim territories too much. And in that reflects on what what what the big the big issue that we're having as well. And like how are we going to build like federalism when we can't even call peace on like this food like territories? You know what I mean? So like this the most simple thing, then we're struggling with it? And then okay, how can we bring unity among us? How can we bring like, Okay, your chin food is as good as Korea food, you know, or like, embrace it, embrace different, different ethnicities and then try to instill that, that respect for each other. So which is why what the main concept for can sell bone stop event it was I was I was the main organizer for the vendors. And I wanted to bring that community and show people that how diverse Myanmar is, and there's so many different types of food. And I just, I just did it as I want it to be, I wanted that to be as part of an education and it's kind of like a trip to Myanmar, but in, in that event,

Host  22:06

so yeah, that's great. So you're, you're exposing not only the range of Burmese food to non Burmese, especially Thai in the neighboring country, and there's so many Burmese immigrants now and migrants and various various legal statuses in Thailand right now, but you're also exposing different ethnic food to primarily Bomar people and, and through the interest in that ethnic food, wanting to promote an interest in the ethnic group itself. And I think that's a really cool thing because it's like kind of peeking this curiosity and, and anytime that you can succeed in peeking a curiosity to start asking questions and start to be interested and start to want to lean forward that opens other doors. And so I guess the question I have for that is do you find traditionally that of all these different ranges of of ethnic foods that are available in Myanmar? Traditionally, would you say that the more people have not really been all that interested or curious on them and that's that's something that you're trying to start and promote.

Trish  23:12

There has been interest in the late years like pre K like a little bit before precursor when I when I went back to 2019 and I've noticed an influx of like kitchen or Karen food in my area, the neighborhood that I was living as opposed to like 10 years like 20 years ago right. But people are not like generally accustomed to like like chasing it down for Korean food or kitchen food Yeah, I don't I don't know how else to put it but it's it's just that I think it's the essence of it is like like every every home has this let's just say one dish that they're really like proud of you know, and and I think that that's because issue in a way that that ego of like Oh, I'm so like, proud of this food and blood and my mom makes the best blah blah blah Yes. But you gotta also accept that other people makes good Mohinga as your mom as well or like, in in let's just say, Mala Mia I also have their type of Mohinga but that doesn't mean that they are better than us. Yeah. That becomes a bit of an issue. Try to explain to people Yes, like, you know, it's regional stuff that you know, you go to like, Dong goo area and then why they why they make this way why they use specific ingredients and why not like Yangon, you know? And then there is no, yeah, they're like, We have to eliminate that idea of we are better than another right, another ethnic, you know,

Host  25:16

right. And one of the things that you've been doing as well is collecting and chronicling indigenous recipes from different ethnic groups talk about that project.

Trish  25:27

So it's this is, this is just a passion project, I had a i and it all like, it all started from a trigger. When I was watching Chef's Table, and there was like, the last episode, I think, and they were, yeah, it was my end chef. And she was able to really like, you know, tell her story and her culture and then keep the traditions. And I was so triggered. And I felt like, like, back like this was like two years ago. So I was still going through my traumas. And I felt the loss and I was grieving so much of not being able to preserve my culture and not being able to really research on what I wanted to do originally was to just, you know, learn about recipes and write a cookbook and archive and like that was that was my interest. So the fact that I cannot go back home to do that was was a really hard thing to chew on and out. And, and the worst thing is that because so many talented cooks, so many restaurants and family homes have now been like, attacked or like there's, there's yeah, there's so many losses, the fact that I'm unable to recorded and it becomes like a almost like a FOMO like, oh no. Like, Will I ever be able to record like the best like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I started from there, and I started archiving the, like, whatever recipes I learned from other people, and I'd be like, just like write it down, you know, for just just for my own reference. Yeah. Yeah.

Host  27:22

Yeah, that's great. I think and I think even putting something like that on paper, it just it that formal process in a way kind of does something and validating or legitimizing, you know, the value of a recipe, like this visa vie recipe from any other culture and cuisine. So, right. Yeah, that's, that's great. I, I know there's been a lot of really cool and different kinds of Burmese cookbooks over the years and in the transition period various various new kinds of takes on that came out and there are some ones I thought were pretty good but you know, come to think of it I can't remember ever really seen a catalogue of of the went beyond the Burmese cooking. I mean, sometimes it dips into Shan or something. But, um, but certainly the more far afield recipes that there's that one could track down I mean, just as one random example that comes to me, I remember one time visiting a friend and Chow mu, which was there's a lot of challenges. This is the channel move outside of Manjula. And he he just started going into all this detail about how special the samosa salad was in Jammu and how it had won, like national awards. And like, you know, the shop had like, had this history and everything else. And we he took me to a cafe that looked like any cafe I've seen, you know, anywhere throughout the rural countryside, like nothing special at all, and sat down and just had like, one of the most amazing I've never had, I didn't know what samosa salad was, but it was just mouthwatering. I mean, I must have had like, three or four servings of just like, keep that coming. Like, that's amazing. And, you know, there's got to be these little pockets of little specialties that you need to have your own networks and contacts. Like, like I had my friend in that case that can just guide you right to the, you know, there's no guidebook as of now. And of course, there's not a peaceful time. But, um, but they're there. Even in the transition period. I didn't know about any projects that were trying to track these things down.

Trish  29:15

Right, right. And on top of it to there hasn't been any archives on Burmese Myanmar, I wouldn't say probably the like Myanmar recipes. Cookbooks like in Thailand, you see like, oh, you could you could track down like royal food or like what they ate at the palace or like, you know, cookbooks from like, 50 years ago even or like way back into like, you're just there's a library full of it. But then I don't know what they ate at in Mandalay. Like during the week, you know what I mean? Like, and no one knows either. And it's always been like, Oh, I'm not sure maybe this and maybe that and it's always been the water mouth. thing that makes it very difficult for anyone who's researching. So the fact that then that becomes worse the fact that I can't go home even to talk to people to even have like that word of mouth thing. So yeah, but another thing is, what was I gonna say I lost my train of thought is like like as a as if Can I ask you a question? Oh, yeah, like as a as a foreigner like what did you What was your like impression with like Burmese food

Host  30:45

I will give a very non traditional answer from what most foreigners would say for two different reasons. One is that I'm vegetarian. And and the second is that the thing that drew me to Myanmar initially before I was able to find a life there with work and whatnot was meditation and so and so the monastery style of food is as as familiar to me as restaurants or home cooking. So that's an that's kind of a different beast. And so by by virtue of being vegetarian, I like kind of peripherally know, the the the meat and fish dishes, I have no idea how they taste, and I no idea how they're made or anything. So it's like a whole slew of, of dishes that I'm just not familiar with. But, but from my own kind of limited and unique perspective, my first time that I went to Myanmar, the food was really, really difficult because I didn't know how to speak for me, I didn't know anything about Burmese food. And I basically had, like oily fried rice or oily, oily fried rice, or only fried noodles, every meal was like three meals a day I had, that's what I had. And I was like, Oh my God, I don't know, when I went to live there. I was like, I don't know how I can, you know, how I'm gonna be able to live off of this. And of course I can, when I was living there, I can cook for myself, but in terms of going out or going to monasteries. But then as I started spending more time there, I just learned about you know, if you go if you go to like normal tourist places, and you're vegetarian, that is about the only thing you get is, is fried rice or noodles. But one of the things I ended up really liking about Burmese food was that they they generally don't cook vegetables, you know, the vegetarian stuff, vegetables, beans, tofu, they don't cook that with meat and fish. So like if you go to Japan or China, like good luck, you know, good luck finding a single dish that just doesn't have just specks of meat or fish in it. But once you know what, what those, you know, the names of those dishes, that that don't have meat or that traditionally aren't made with meat or fish. I mean, it's fine. It's no problem, you can go anywhere. And you know, and I would I would meet meditators who are vegetarian that came into Myanmar for the first time, and they would have the same experience. Like before I met them, they would be really struggling with food, and then I'd hang out with them. We go to a monastery or a restaurant, and I just rattle off like five dishes. And they're like, Oh, this is the healthiest I've ever eaten. So it just took some time for me to get accustomed to that.

Trish  33:14

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, like, I think that's also another thing that was very eye opening for me and I had to learn it, like slowly because I was so assimilated and assimilated, I would say assimilated into this very western idea of like, if you go through French called like, I graduated from a French culinary school is very bougie very fancy. And worked in like, a Michelin place and like different like fancy restaurants and thinking that that is food that is like a higher cuisine, I whatever that was. And it took me a while to like break myself down mentally to like, you know, like food, it's at the end of the day. It's all about being like having delicious food that's in you know, whether you do all the techniques of fancy stuff, whatever. And I couldn't connect it with what I was doing with my career before as this fancy hungry like young cook. And I had to ask myself like, as a Burmese re or a Myanmar person like what what is the essence of like Burmese, Burmese food, Myanmar food, that was just bringing people together and having that community by more means like really simple, rustic charm to it mostly monastery food, which is to go to and or like eating at my mom's place or like a family's home or a Sunday gathering with Your families and those are things that brings more joy than other bougie stuff.

Host  35:09

Right? I don't know if you're familiar with Dave Chang, but the way you describe your relationship to French food is similar to how I've heard him speak about it is just this, this kind of massive standard that that your that he brings about this overwhelming and overbearing sense to want to get right. But then it and there's some beautiful and amazing things about it, but then it also can, can suffocate you and overwhelm you, and trying to figure out where you are as a non French and even a non white, you know, from from an Asian culture and your case, even more than David Chang's who's Korean, from an Asian culture that is is lesser known than like the Chinese or Thai or Japanese kind of cuisine. So yeah,

Trish  35:54

and it also breaks my heart is to me, like on a business aspects, like I understand why people charge so little about, like, so little of their food as just the income gap and the consumer spending power and whatnot for Burmese food and they want to target like Myanmar people. But at the same time, that devalues your food, and I have an issue with that. So someone who's making like hen handmade egg noodle for years, you know, it's like a generational passed down through and like, through families, like three generation, like, I know this one person who was like, she's, she's a noodle master. My mom's read and but she cannot, like increase her price for these doodles just because, you know, it's spending power when not and especially at a time like this now. So, but it devalues her craft, you know, and to a point where now she stopped producing ignorable, which is which is something that it breaks my heart because this is something that needs to be continued. This is something that, yeah, you should be proud of that no one can do it except her, you know, and that's the thing thing with our iconic lopat at the fermented release, was that people are rude, like devaluing it by just, you know, first of all, people should like stop like, explaining to but like, it's okay, if you'd like don't know about what Lopa is, but we got to start calling the pet as Lapa and not like, oh, it's fermented tea leaf salad and try to like translating into English like stop like, oh, like, it's annoying. And it's it's like all these like small little things. It becomes like a little bit draining mentally as well. Like as, as a chef and as a cook like this, like overly explaining a lot of things and having to put so much effort into like, No, you have to like like, there's not only one type of curry and Myanmar food, there's like 1000s And then there's different names for it, you know, and please learn, but it's I get that that's what makes it fun to for people who are non Burmese to like, especially curious eater, who and I've seen it so much in Chiang Mai Chiang Mai has has changed in like in the last two years. And especially tie this is what I'm like incredibly like shook is like it CMOS to my university. There's so many like Myanmar students now. And obviously that influences a lot and then from there on and it just keeps on growing and also so many Myanmar restaurants here. Well, like insane amount of Mrs. Stern. So I think that Lapa Lovato, the fermentative salad has become like such an iconic food for especially for vegetarians and vegans. And it's a good it's a goodly way to tell the world that Oh, it's from Burma. And it's like, Burma, you know,

Host  39:27

yeah, yeah, we're staying on the subject of fermentation, which I absolutely love I love to experiment with with fermentation myself. But you You've obviously we have what you have with that which is fermented tea leaf salad, as you mentioned, but you carried on this PO ferments which was not only I believe this was before the coup. Not only was this a fermenting all kinds of things in Myanmar, but as you talk about with The other projects that you're doing it's it's concerned about authenticity and tradition and sustainability and an indigenous kind of fermentation. So tell us about as far as you know it and they're able to explain tell us both about the history of fermentation and Bomar and other ethnic foods, how it's been done in previous years, what fermentation techniques they used and, and what they fermented. And then also, it's placed in the cookie. And I mean, because fermentation is so interesting in that it gives such unique tastes and flavors as different chemical combinations are unlocked, that you even the way that you you would put a fermented item in a dish or you would eat it along with other dishes isn't not as not like other food because it's so it's so unique in terms of what it does to the palate. So also talk not only about where fermentation has been seen traditionally, but then how it's used in dishes and serving. Okay, so

Trish  40:54

um, well as far as I know with from what I researched, burn Myanmar people like of us fermentation as a tool to preserve food waste, and cut down food waste. And if we don't have fridges, I mean, if you go to like rural areas, like fridges are like a new thing, back home. And in some areas, there's no fridges, so they have to learn different ways of fermenting depending on the region. So for example, boy G, which is a fermented horse, gram, it's a type of black beans lagoon, and it's famous in Bhutan area, like they're known for that, that's like when you go to Bhutan, you gotta buy that. And how they do is that first of all lagoon, it's hard to keep, but they grow abundance of it over there. And how do they preserve it is by fermenting by steaming it and then by fermenting it and then take out the water completely moisture out so that it's like a thick, like black paste that can stay for years and then you could just add it into curries and yeah, like or like eat it as a as part of a salad but the whole idea is like long shelf life without using any fridge storage. When you look at Sean they it's a bit colder climate so and like, especially like December time, they the area that I live especially my dad my dad's part a half Sean so they have a lot of these like pigs and that's when they, they when you break down a pig, it's big, you know, you can't just live it, you can just eat it at one go. So we have to learn how to preserve these with like by curing so there's a lot of cured meats and Shan Shan Shan stayed and then they learned this this through the migration from from China like so that a lot of like Chinese descendants migrating into Shan area. So the techniques that they use for curing meats are very similar to how Chinese cured the meats and pickles for example, the shine pickles are like like super well known for Shan noodles you have like on the side like this little Shawn pickles using alcohol and also what else do they use like salt and and a lot of like Mala like bass like like spicy kick. And that's also very Chinese influence as well. And if you go closer to like, chin area for example like like in Chin Chin Sade meat is very rare so they ferment a lot of vegetables instead. So a lot of it has to do with not having fish storage and it also cut down food waste as well you know like if you look at the whole country where were food food were poor. Yeah, yeah, for sustainably purpose and how it's been used as a wildlife just like I explained like, because fermentation like fermented stuff are so like, intense we don't really like eat it as like how, like the Germans eat sauerkraut, you know what I like? It's something like really tiny and small and like, on the side like it's never the hero of the dish. It's just a supporting factor. But it's it's, it's I love hot lava is a type of fermentation. So that whole a Um, I went down through a research loophole of like how Lopa came about. And then it's originally from China. With the trade, they just have too, too much, China in India, when they were doing all the T T trade, and they just don't know what to do with it. And all is like, they're just going all over the country. And it's like, what do we do with it. And like, someone must have spilled like a bunch of like salt in it or like woods. And then they send you know, and it's like, fermenting in like big pots of big pots of clay pots. And yeah, the process in itself is like, so tedious and meticulous and labor like intensive. So I'm so impressed by how, like hello pet has grown over the years.

Host  45:59

And that's interesting, what you mentioned about the lack of refrigeration, we had a podcast guest on recently, who was a former adviser to the I don't remember the exact name of the ministry like Ministry of energy and electricity or something before the cou, Canadian guy. And he was just talking about the difference of an electrified life and how much a community can change when it gets when he gets electrified. And just things I had never considered of how just how, I mean, it's so obvious once you think about it, just how many things it gives you when when you get that and LD wasn't perfect, but it did. It did do a lot with the grid. And it brings me back to my memory of one of my Burmese teachers, when this was actually before the transition. So he is like probably middle class at that time. This is why he was able to just have a slight improvement in his life. But one day, he came to class, and he said, before the class started, he was just beaming. And he said, we just got our refrigerator, and he was so happy. And he's like, you know, first refrigerator they ever had, and just beaming that they now had a refrigerator. And I was like, oh, that's that's really interesting. And we're talking and I say to him, so you have this new refrigerator. How's that going to change your life? What are you going to put in it? And he just stares back at me completely blank, like, like, just like his head's about to explode. And then he says, water. And I've never forgotten that story. Because it was just so amazing to think about how proud he was to get his first refrigerator, but because he had lived a life and he had lived just fine a life without refrigeration. That he he knew that this was something that in a modern world you were supposed to have. But because and so it's a real, you know, it's always fun to get new gadgets, but because he had never actually utilized that he didn't. And I'm sure after a week or a month or something, he started to learn what he could put there. But when he was just conceptualizing, he literally had no idea what he could use it for, except for cold water. That's funny.

Trish  48:04

That's funny. Yeah. I mean, like, if you think about it, you know, if it weren't for like, the fact that there's there was no fridge refrigeration system. Like we had Lopa we all have these great fermented food. Yeah, if there was fridge, like available to everyone, you know, like, people wouldn't be like fermenting as much as like, yeah, as much as we thought it would be.

Host  48:30

Sure well, I remember I was when I was in Colorado when looking at these, these old mountain homes from like the 19th century and they had these recreations of how pioneers lived. And I remember them showing the desk and they pulled out like a bottom drawer of the desk. And they were like this is where they would ferment the the bread the flour for bread in order to cook bread and it was just like this kind of enclosed wooden bottom drawer that just didn't get a lot of air or moisture or anything. And so it was just kind of naturally what they use to to ferment flour, because that was the only way they get bread. I mean, this is this is a common of human history of you know, before you get these kind of modern accoutrements.

Trish  49:14

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, the same goes with not B as well then the BA, the site little, very intense, like fish sauce, almost, but it's thick fish paste. And I went I went to one of the production house and literally like, there's insane amount of the game. I mean, hygiene first of all, is not not a Myanmar thing. But when it comes to fermentation throughout the years that I've learned that you have to be like really clean, but it is what it is. And then it was very interesting to see the process of how they, yeah, how they process a BA and it's just like But you know, like fish is like the most like you eat fish fresh, right? Like that's the common thinking, but no, we eat fish rotten and people don't realize the amount of probiotics that you're getting from eating this on a daily basis every home's having a BA like no doubt about that. And what they do and the stereotype This is another stereotypes that I hate is like even within our Myanmar community some of the very like, superficial class like that very like high like brainwashed, I would almost say classes that NWBA smelly, stinky, whatever. And, and that is, that is not the right way to you know, the air culture or you know, like, or like whenever, like people serve like I have been told one time that like, Oh, don't serve like a PA as at this pop up. This was pre coup. And I was like, why? And I was like, oh, like it's smelly. It's smelly for foreigners like, you know, like, like, foreigners can't take that like intense smell. And I'm like, Well, my blue, like blue cheeses as smelly as, oh, what are you talking about? Wine, for example, it might be great, but it's like it's not. So it's disgusting for other people. Like it's just so it's like, you know, like that stereotypes of that? Yeah. So

Host  51:33

Right. And going back into family tradition and whatnot, one post that you made on your page caught my eye that maybe you can go into the story. You you're not just looking at tradition in terms of different cultures or ethnicities, but also in terms of your own family and you tell a story about your, I think it's your great grandmother, di t that that was the breadwinner of the family. And that had a special dish that she cooks. So tell her story.

Trish  52:01

Okay, she has a very interesting story. So this was during World War Two, and her husband died, like passed away. He was the breadwinner, and that's what she had to like, start it hustling. And that time the Japanese soldiers were were like conquering. So she ended up selling on the causeway which is a coconut noodle group, and she dressed up as a man because at that time, remember that like, with these conquests, there comes sexual harassment, rape, like all the stuff so but she's still got to bring food for their family. And it was like right next to this. This Japanese like Office or something. And on the site, they gave her this one free slot for her to open a shop. So she had her Mohinga stall there and fed a lot of Japanese soldiers in at the same time because she was she was a smart lady. And then she ended up picking up like different Japanese words. So like JC had a good relationship with them. So they ended up like she ended up being that like, trustworthy person, like all like this place, you know, like, this lady that not lady like this guy who runs her own Acosta store. And then later on, like, you know, she started going into this offices and sealing like canned food for her family, so they get to eat like a lot of good food back for their kids. Like canned like stuff. Yeah, so that's the dish is just iconic, because it's usually coconut noodle or no closer. We cook it with chicken, but she use beef as well just to cater to different different Japanese crowd. And yeah, so I like we kept it in the family. And every like, Yeah, three generations now.

Host  54:21

That's great. And there's also a story that you share about the type of Mohinga that that you're serving. So if you could, if I could also get you to tell the story about where that Mohinga recipe comes from.

Trish  54:32

Okay. Mohinga recipe. My Mohinga recipe is from my mom. She's from Yangon. And she's she's just she learned it from my grandpa. My No, my grandma's. My great grandma. Yeah, she learned from my great grandma. And it's actually a recipe that she kind of like tweaks around over the years on like, like ratio wise so whatnot but it's it's Yangon Mohinga which is we use a equal amount of chickpeas and fish bone broth. And yeah, yeah. So that's that's Yangon Mohinga. I think what you're referring is to my another friend, who I was doing pop up with on Miss Luna. Hers is very interesting. Because her Mohinga comes from. It's Mala Mala vi Mohinga. But she wanted in a refugee, her mom sold Mohinga at a refugee camp when they were displaced in Thailand. And yeah, like, Ben that stayed in their family. And it's her Mala. Mala Mia Mohinga. Yeah, that her mom taught.

Host  55:53

That's really cool. That's great. Getting back kind of earlier to your story, you reference all the years you spent training in a French cooking academy, and then going to Michelin restaurants. So go back to your experience of learning French cuisine and what drove you to go on that career route.

Trish  56:16

And so I was basically studying at a university here in Thailand before the culinary journey. And I was studying marketing and hospitality. And I just, I just did it because, you know, I gotta make my Asian parents proud. And just, like, earn a degree, that kind of thing. And then I just had I lost my interest to her like, on like, fourth year, and I was failing really miserably. So I dropped out. And then I figured, like, Okay, I gotta do something about my life now. And also, like, not be the disappointment of the family. And I joined the culinary school, and it happens to be a fancy like, French culinary school here. And yeah, like little little, like, I was a spoiled kid. So for me to like, join the culinary school, like the French way, the very, like military style kind of trembling and very, like punctual stuff. I ate that up, like, like, crack. Oh, yeah. Like, I was like, that was something that was lacking in my life, that discipline.

Host  57:38

Oh, I see what you took to that you didn't rebel against it.

Trish  57:42

I know. Like, I took it to my heart and I and that really, like helped me shaped who I am right now. Because it that disciplinary thing that I find it something of my my strong traits, and yeah, and, and Ed, what am I call those when I after I graduate, I started working at a Michelin restaurant, right? Like, and that was like, like, intense and everything is so like, like he's he's the the mentor was he's such a perfectionist. And it's a mission user. And so like, everything depends, like you're so pressured, like you like your your error margin is zero. And I started from like, the basic like kami stage, like so it's like the base, the base level entry level, and then like, work my way up. So there's matters of like serotypes as well. And a lot of things that you have to you face and not just like me doing the whole disciplinary or like climbing that like letter. But also having to break stereotypes of working with Thai people like with the locals that it's okay for you to take the command from a Burmese person. Oh, I see. It's a very blue collar job, right, given a very white collar attention. And then when I became sous chef at this restaurant, and then people were like, why she's Myanmar and she's, why are you giving me orders? You know, so it's very hard for like new comers, like interns to grasp that idea. And then, you know, it was very challenging because I was specifically put the to that task of like, training tight like new kids who joined the restaurant. So it was quite tough. Yeah. And

Host  59:43

so that's really interesting that you you didn't just learn the, the process of French cuisine, but also this French militaristic style around how the kitchens are run, which I've also heard about, and then when you eventually switched over were to do more localized Burmese things Was it hard to kind of get, I mean, I can't think of two things that are greater odds, just the relaxed kind of anything goes attitude, a feeling that Burmese kitchen just just just the way the cooking process is going. And something is militarized as French so is that like a real culture shock and going back and forth?

Trish  1:00:20

Yeah, I mean, it at first it took me a while to get used to especially learning from my mom is that she just doesn't measure anything. It was a bit of a, it was a major struggle. And I was getting really meticulous about a lot of things, but it's the and you know, like I learned from on on the civil lining is that you get the best of the best of both worlds. So like that whole, like meticulous stuff of like measuring stuff. And then I get to learn with my mom about like, soul food, and then having that like, like feeling it and then like intuitions and like, like just really being in the moment. But able to also record whatever she put and put in the dish. So yeah, like it was it was a struggle at first, but then now I've like, you know, set up a system where it's a bit more easier. Yeah, to work through it. So it's been, it's actually

Host  1:01:22

and why did you make the decision to move on from all those years of French training and Michelin restaurants into this is before the cool obviously, into during it coming back to me and margin, the transition period and really doing an about face in terms of going back into your own culture into other food cultures in this country and start to develop the many things that you were developing before the coup. Okay,

Trish  1:01:46

so Okay, pre coup 2019 I quit my job here at this Michelin restaurant, I went back out of like, major spite and vision visa issues, and I couldn't stay in Thailand anymore. And I so I went back and I was like, okay, and like, it's pretty much a pity call because I was like, I'm gonna I'm going to show you like what I'm capable of pretty much. So it was like very egotistical move. But then the messed up thing is that I was trying to walk in my head that I thought that I was elevating the cuisine by bringing a French snare like flair to it. But really, if you think about it, all I was trying to do was whitewashing it was pissed me off, but it took me a long time to realize that which is when I got to like last year almost like I just made a decision that this whole thing that I believed in, in elevating the cuisine and making it super fancy and doing fine dining like Myanmar Course Menu thing is so whitewashed. I started to feel very uncomfortable about it, because it not only not only it's like, like, like, devaluing the culture, but it also was was not what like it was also like, becoming like, not me, you know, and I have remained like what I am right now at the very moment is to represent what I'm going through and represent my culture at its best. And yeah, so I let go of anything. And so I and like, I tried working at different restaurants like the first year, because you know, like, I had to make some money. And it was horrible. I felt no connection to what I thought that I used to love. And it was the same guy that I used to work for the Michelin guy. And then I went back to his his restaurant, and then they sent him down to Phuket for another gig. And then I just felt so disconnected. And the worst thing is that the family that I was serving, give all very cronies five. You know, it's like a rich family that was just like, literally, you know, hiring like 50 people to serve them. And then that felt so disconnected. And that made me so angry because like, I'm like, I'm fighting for a cause I literally moved to Thailand to fight like this. This very superficial koroni stuff and like what what am I doing? And then yeah, that's like, it was started. That was the beginning of me trying to, like break away from all of Yeah, call like, what is it like? colonizing mind? organizing my mind? Yeah, there you go. That's a word decolonizing my mind slowly. Yeah.

Host  1:04:55

And how did you learn to do that? What did it mean to decolonize your mind I mean in terms of food, and what what are the ways that you learned of how Burmese food can be presented and shared and enjoyed in a way where it's not being whitewashed?

Trish  1:05:10

First of all, like I had to figure out if I'm doing pop ups or fundraising or like anything like event wise or selling my product, then I have to bring in that authenticity, like, what is my target market? If Am I targeting to Myanmar people or like, foreigners? You know? And then, for me, the answer is simple. It's my community, my people and then for people to for non Myanmar people to slowly start accepting us is to really, like, accept us for who we are. And that's why But Mama, that's what bye mama came about. I was trying to heal. But at the same time, I wanted to talk about like, there's a lot of like, weird Burmese, like, cultures that we have, and then also talk about, like, these cultural stigmas and stereotypes, and like, you know, like, and then it's, it's having these, like, small little reels on Instagram and making it like a satire has, like, also given me the meaning to like, more like giving me answers to what I want to become than actually, like, you know, mansplaining about our culture and stuff like that. So it was Yeah, I think that was the process. And yeah, I'd also like another thing is price point as well. So when I'm like trying to charge people, like I don't overcharge them, because I still want my commute like my Myanmar people to come and eat my food. But also, at the same time, like, like, make it too cheap to a point that it's like a devalued thing. You know what I mean? Like, so it's, yeah, yeah, figuring out that medium.

Host  1:07:01

Yeah. And Chiang Mai is certainly a food lovers paradise. So if you're set up in Chiang Mai, and that's very interesting, what you're saying that there's more Burmese places, I don't in my times in Chiang Mai, I don't remember a lot of Burmese places. And the Aside from I think it's Freebird Cafe, which is a long standing place. But um, the I would find in Thailand, when I did go to Burmese restaurants, they were they were really kind of suited for those Burmese that were that were stuck in Thailand and a place for them to go. There weren't of all you know, a Thai food and Thai restaurants has been so creative and everything from menus to the architectural design to you know, how it serves and everything else I can't aside from Freebird Cafe, which is more which always had a history of also being an activist place. Yeah, I I don't remember, it's now that you mentioned that you talked about all the great other Asian food that's there. My memory of Burmese restaurants in Thailand where we're kind of, you know, Backstreet places where Burmese just like to go get something familiar to them. So, you know, it's interesting to think if if if Chiang Mai has now also blossoming Burmese dishes that that can be accessible and interesting to all food lovers to come there. Is that something that you see taking shape?

Trish  1:08:21

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like it's a drastic change within like the to the past two years. And it's all because from the migration, right food with all the people displace here Yes, they do have their day job and whatnot, but it's not enough you know, like they still got a support like down or whatever, whatever the reason is, so the easiest way for them to make like extra money is by cooking up some food and then selling it online or like doing like home deliveries and stuff like that. And or some people have been able to build restaurants even and there's a lot of like business people for Myanmar who has migrated who had to migrate to to Thailand and then because rent is so cheap here and then like it's so it gives a very like Mandalay vibe some say but I think is has a very like down G vibe, a Shan State. It's just has that also an easier access to supplies as well there's that route from Miss Tsai and not too late. That trade route is much more accessible than the miss out route and also touchy like being you know, a very where all the most of the drug lords live. So the military don't really focus to like leave them alone. So that route has become a bit more safer and cheaper for them. Supply is a treat to come in. And the closest city is to my.

Host  1:10:04

Right. Right. It's interesting. So it's a real crossroads. Yeah.

Trish  1:10:08

Yeah, absolutely. And an ethnic food. And originally, there's so many carrots and caviar people who has been displaced here for years, like I'm talking about, I need to 30 years. And then you know, and they got to make a living as well. And then they Yeah, so it's, it's, it's been very interesting living here and seeing this boom. And I'm very curious to know where it's going. And I mean, like, I always believed in bringing our community together. And which is why like, what I said before with, like, with can't stop won't stop is to highlight the amount of diversity that we have. Yeah, yeah. Especially in Chiang Mai.

Host  1:10:54

Yeah, that's great. That's great. I'm going back again, to just your time in French cooking school. And then in Michelin restaurants I, I saw that in one post you you contrasted it to the TV show The Bear saying that it was that was a accurate depiction to some of your experience, which I thought was awesome, because I think that's just one of the most amazing shows that's come out in the last year. I just love it. And I want to ask you, not the obvious question about French cuisine, but probably the the least obvious one instead of asking you how French and Burmese cuisine are different of which many things with strikeout, I want to ask you, in what ways are there surprising similarities and intersections? What did you find in the process of French cuisine? That just randomly stuck out of like, oh my god, this is like this. This part's what we do in Burma.

Trish  1:11:44

Yeah, yeah, there's, there's a lot there's a lot of dishes that we do that so similar to French cuisine, which is basically the copy the fish, the fish, that the stinky fish that they think that it's thinking and like, like solely Burmese, but the techniques that we use in cooking is so similar to a dish, it's a French dish called seafood bisque, which is basically you're blending up a bunch of like, shells. See, it could be like shrimp shells, or like fish bones bola and it just blending that up into like a paste ish thing to get that bone juice. And that's exactly what we do in in OB as well. And as well as Mohinga as well. This is what I noticed with with cooking with my mom recently that the that extraction of a lot of broth from the bone broth is very similar to how in French cooking, we make stocks, you know, and yeah, so similarities like that. What else is similar? Well, like butter, we don't we don't we don't use a lot of butter. But I guess you switch off a lot of oil. Let's just say that. So in French Yes, fat I was out as it why like fat fat condiment, they use a lot of butter to flavor their dish or like crave velocity and emulsification, whatever. And then in in Myanmar cuisine, we use while not just for flavoring and stuff like that, but for shelf life as well. So when you put a lot of oil in a curry or something like that, it's not just for like, we love oily greasy food, but also for another like preservation technique, which is because just just because there's no fridge storage, so it keeps longer. And same goes with French food is sometimes you cure the meat using tons of butter. And then you age the meat for like months or years even. So things like that are like technical stuff or very similar fermentation as well, you know.

Host  1:14:01

That's great. Yeah. So let's talk a little more about what you're doing there. And Chiang Mai, you've referred to both of these things in your other answers, but let's flesh them out and make sure that people know hear these names, and we'll also have links in the show notes. But the two main initiatives you've been working on is Miss loonatics and Bama ma so talk about each one of those.

Trish  1:14:22

Okay, Miss Miss Flores is actually on pause right now for a little bit, but I started off bringing it up, bringing my name out there with Miss lunatics, which is a fundraising platform using using food as a fundraising platform. And we host events and then yeah, like ask people to pay for an entry ticket and then we serve food and a portion of it we donated so but that is on pause and now my focus is more on the mama which is a food of food content, it started off as a food content creating, and then now it's developing into more of a community building and product based business as well. And it took was was really weird I, I actually wrote my business model multiple times, just to figure out how I can gauge this brand in the most sustainable way and also benefit the community and creates an impact, and also be able to run on its own without having to rely on any, like, outside. Support meaning like an NGO, because like when an NGO is involved, when another organization is involved, you have to rely for money to buy from them, right. And without that, like without that money coming in, you're kind of screwed. So I don't want that. And also having them like, controlling you and like having to see in the things that I want to do, I don't want that either. So I had to figure out a way to have my business run on its own meaning. Putting it pretty much like putting down my my savings. And so I'm coming up with a brand right now. And basically, it's Mohinga paste, and I'm selling it to like it's a mass production with a goal of mass production. But at the same time with with an undertone of wanting to hire Myanmar CDM people, maybe Myanmar displaced, or whoever needs whoever needs a job. I want to hire them even like part time and be able to train them as well as part of resettlement and relocation, like, program. Yeah, so so that it's easier, like if they don't work here, they can go work at like any restaurant and like be able to still improve, you know,

Host  1:17:19

right. So the food that you're making and serving, it definitely connects those Burmese that are displaced, like yourself and give them something familiar. And it also reaches out to the many Westerners that are in Thailand and are curious about food and culture and perhaps what's going on. But how about the native ties being in Thailand to what you talked a bit about the discrimination you face there before? And I definitely know that of the difficulty of Burmese in Thailand, and the stereotypes that are there. But to what degree have you been able to make inroads in Burmese Thai friendship.

Trish  1:17:55

So a lot of Thai ties who have come to my dinners and pop ups has been shocked by how delicious the food is. And they have also been able to find similarities, which is a very key important thing in slowly convincing them like that's, that's the key thing is that a lot of toys will not eat food, if it's strange or new, or like Whateley, like not familiar. So you have to like it's like the your sausage is very similar to the chick my Thai sausage and siteswan. And, you know, they're like, oh, like, this is exactly similar to like, our sausage or like that. No, Pa is similar to our copy. So like, they're like, oh, like you guys eat like, same as us. And I was like, Yes. Like, that's what I've been trying to tell you guys. So they don't feel that like we're too different anymore. So I've noticed that and then slowly with an abundance of like, Myanmar restaurants popping up everywhere. I keep seeing like Thai people like really curious to try out like Myanmar food especially Lopa, you too, because like Thai tea, and like there's Lapa. Yeah. And they're like, Oh, like this is similar, but different. You know what I mean?

Host  1:19:28

Yeah, yeah. All right. Getting to into what's going on in Myanmar, the resistance movement to the ongoing military regime and the ongoing conflict that's there. One of the things that you wrote on your social media that resonated with me more and more than anything, which I feel completely aligned with this and just thought it was really beautiful and want to repeat this back to you and just have you unpack a little bit about what you meant by it and examples of it. So you You wrote, I think I only have two friends now and I love them. I'm in a weird phase in my life, just like all of my cool friends fighting a war in my own way. So that that's, that's just awesome. And I think it also that also touches upon the the weird experience of this that's that in some ways as transcending geography and culture and everything else of those people that have decided to show up and continue showing up to over two years on that there's, there's this, this, it's a very small community, unfortunately. But there's also these very strong bonds that are forged. By the sacrifices, that one, even when one is in safety, you know, they're not sacrifices in terms of life or safety or anything, but sacrifices in terms of time and energy and burden and all of that, those who are, are continuing to take on that burden, and to keep showing up and keep carrying and doing what they can, as we said before, whether it's cooking, whether it's cleaning the streets, whether it's holding protest signs, whatever it is, to continue doing that there is a very special and unique bond that's forged by that very small community. So if you can unpack what you meant by it, and what stands out in those words, as you hear them back of me reciting what you had written,

Trish  1:21:19

okay, so So first of all, like when coo hit, right, we thought that, like, we completely, we had to give up everything, we have to leave our homes, we have to live leave our lives that we we were very comfortable with and then leaving our families, that's the most tragic thing, man moving here, not knowing what to do. Nobody has like all I'm I have a job, you're secure everything, like, you have to find your own ideal new identity here, you know, and then trying to deal with that conflict was the hardest thing for me. And me as a chef, and I see that with my artists, friends, for example, like how can they continue be being an artist or a hug? Or like dancers, for example, how can they continue living their dream but also supporting the cause? Or do they just completely let go and then do some corporate jobs or, and just completely forget about their passion and when good ad like, you know, like, that's, that's like an identity crisis, that all Myanmar people has to go through right now. And, and then we at the end of the day, you still you still gotta pay rent, you know, people gotta like sale, make their own mean. So there are some of my other friends cool friends that has to sacrifice their identity for for for money. And they they're not happy, right? And we like with can't stop won't stop the whole idea. And the concept that me and my friend Nan, we like we chat we talked about was this just to show that we are continue living our lives, our creative background, what we're good at, and what we've always been comfortable to do, and continue living that despite whoever tried to take our lives, despite the military trying to take our lives away, we're continuing what we're good at and what we're interested in, you know, and I think that's the most that's, there's power in it. And there's also strength in it. And even having within our friends cool friend circle, there are times that even me has lost my my passion and cooking. But because I see my other friends continue to cook, continue to or like designers continue to design or like artists continuing to be like, you know, artists and music producer and blah, blah, they continue doing that. And that gives me so much strength. And that was the bond and energy that I manifest in myself that I cannot let go of my identity. But also there's this new identity of me being an activist or being a like, yeah, being an activist. And, like, how do we how do we fit into it? And the second thing is I've made friends with a lot of journalists for some reason. Without the coup happening, you know, those are the kinds of people that I don't really hang out with. Coming from an f&b very f&b industry. It's always like just me and my customers are like, old like buddies from high school and stuff like that, but I will never like hanging out with like political people were like activists like I would never in my mind would like, you know, hanging out with them and talking about politics event. So, because of that, you know, you have this ongoing thing because like, the retention level is very low sometimes for people like, like me who are not like politically like turned up. But because you're surrounded by that environment, and you get, you get the energy of like, okay, like, you know, I gotta keep going, and then these things are happening. And sometimes like, you know, the pages that I follow are like, through friends, and then they have asked help for like, oh, like, Trisha got to do like some fundraising through food, and then we can collaborate and like, you know, like, with my sources, and like, my journalist crowd are like this, and this and that. And then it grows, it grows from there. And the bond is insane. And especially most of them are Burmese. So and they've, they've just come over to my house for a sense of like community and a sense of home. So it's nice, it's nice to see them, like, let go of their identity of who they are, even if they're journalists, or if they're like, really, if they're really like prominent members, and what so and so they just come to my place, and then just seeing them eat like a bowl of Mohinga and enjoying it like as if they're my brother or my sister, without having that like identity and that like stress tied to them. It was it's a joy. So,

Host  1:26:39

yeah, that's definitely true, I just kind of have a feeling that before the coup happened, especially those years of transition, when when everything opened up to the degree it did, because I was in Myanmar many, many years before the transition. So definitely experienced the difference of when there was opportunity, and when there wasn't and what that did, but when that opportunity came, so many people were following different passion projects and, and engaging in different interests that they had. And it was really cool to see all these different things kind of blossoming. But there was also I also felt that to some degree, there was kind of a stay in your lane kind of feel, you know, you might be at a social event or something, something else in Yangon or Myanmar where where people from different sectors would come. But when that would happen to me even I don't know how much there was to talk about, I just I wasn't it wasn't anything, anything rude or, or, or arrogant in terms of one's background, or my background or whatnot, it was just kind of like, you know, I'm doing this and you're doing that, and that person's doing that. And you might come together for a moment, but then then you kind of go on your way and follow your thing. And the for those coup friends, as you call it, those people who have who have showed up and especially you know, a couple of years on are continuing to be just as active, that, that stay in your lane mentality. On one hand, it's really dissolved. And it's and I say on one hand, because I think it is beautiful to recognize the strengths and the backgrounds and professions that people come in with. And so it's not like it's just this this communist, you know, monolithic kind of everyone's doing the same thing. People recognize their talents and their backgrounds. And they excel in what, what, what motivates them and what they're good at what they're trained in. But it's dissolved in the sense that the stakes are so high, and the enemy is so fierce. And this moment in history is so profound and so important that none of us just and I think everyone kind of realizes we just don't have the luxury to be able to, to stay in your lane the same way if you care about wanting to have a movement that coalesces around a new future. And so, you know, it's it's definitely a personally speaking. And I guess this is also just privileged in terms of having a podcast platform were intentionally trying to reach out, you know, the more people I can reach out to that I don't know anything about is exciting to me to go to new communities and new new new backgrounds, that's very fresh, as well as we have a nonprofit, better Burma and that's active and a lot of humanitarian projects on the ground. And so that's also connected me with different people in groups. But but certainly it's It's put me in touch with people and connected me with types of people that I never would have had a reason to have anything beyond a polite conversation with but really to go into depth with who they are and who I am and how we how we might work together and share things and trust each other and sometimes trust each other in very high stakes situations. And so it's been it's just been very interesting how it has these kind of coup friends have broken down and dissolve some of these some of the stay in your lane mentality to really looking at how can we be greater than the sum of our parts?

Trish  1:29:51

Right, right. No, I totally I totally agree with everything you said. And another One thing that I want to highlight is that it is taking such a long time for a lot of NGOs to understand that, because of funding that they give us, and this is the big issue that I discovered is the funding, mostly protect journalists. The funding mostly protects the media people. But where is the funding that protects the artists? Where is the funding that protects normal people? CDM people, like teachers, engineers, like, you know, like, so even like, there's a huge segregation. Yeah, but they're the, the importance of journalism. And like, it's incredible, like, they're doing incredible work and putting their life on the line and whatnot. But also, you got to start thinking about like other people, you know, there are, like, so many people displaced at the border right now who are not journalists, and then not having that attention given to them just because, okay, you know, like that. And then like, I think the organization's they need to stop segregating this whole mentality of like, okay, if you're not this identity, you cannot be granted this and this and this and that, you know? And, yeah, yeah. And then another is the, within the ethnics as well. So, I understand they're 60 years of like, crazy, like violence struck upon them. And some of the other ethnics, they have to, you know, migrate to Thailand or like their villages burned down and stuff like that. And the predominant like Bomar people have been brainwashed for years through, like, by the military, about ethnic cleansing, for example, there were hinges. situation so like, it's, it's, it's, we have to work slowly to gain that trust back. So one incident was I has I have asked the breakdown, the breakdown people to come and collaborate and like join our, like, our festival, our event, and they were so reluctant, because they're like, why should we care about them? Why should we care about these women people for like, where were they when we needed? We were when we need need us? You know, like, and I was like, oh, okay, that that makes sense. And yeah, I've never apologized so much for anyone. And it puts you in perspective. Yeah, that, that it's not like, as much as we think, as a whole that we're very united. And yes, we're like fighting through this. But there's also these tiny small. Mike, like micro aggressions, I would say, yeah, that we have within our community. And we have to, we have to let go of that as well. But it's it's it's slowly getting there.

Host  1:33:20

Yeah, for sure. And I mean, this is also not accidental. This is the this is this is the way that the British govern during the colonial period in the Talmud, the Talmud, the Burmese military only double down on that and did it even more. So I mean, you just look at the infrastructure of the country. And the I mean, when I first got there, and I saw just the map of the ethnic regions, and then learn that there was simply no roads connecting them, you know, you have to go, you can't go from one ethnic area to the other, you have to come back down to the dry zone, Bomar area, and then go to another one. So even the literal infrastructure is designed to want to keep them not talking to each other and separate from each other. And so, you know, and I think that one of the challenges I mean, just just speaking a bit, you know, before I think we're talking more kind of ground level in general, but going putting the focus on on some of the more the top level negotiation and consensus building is trying to happen. You know, there's, I've, I've spoken to people in DC that are involved in projects of consensus building and bringing in the the top leaders of all the different ethnic organizations and then ug and ECC and such, and just talking about how extremely difficult it is. And I think that when you go from a place of divide and conquer mentality where you don't even have infrastructure, connected roads and where you talk to most ethnic people, I just had an interview with a Korean woman earlier today that was born into an IDP camp and it took her until adulthood to realize that Bomar people were not devils because we only as is the case of so many ethnic people. The only contact they have with them are are, you know, kind of drug induced militia that are coming to that are the way I described it to her, it was almost like, these are real boogie men, you know, you grew up with this sense of a boogeyman wanting this, this metaphorical figure that's, that's going to steal away children in the night. As a child, they are military, they are actual boogie men who, from a child's mentality, try to understand, why do these people are dedicated to terrorizing us. And so you know, to go from, to go, to go from that divide and conquer mentality and growing up in terror and trauma, to go from that stage. And then to the stage of, okay, we're going to build consensus and trust each other and work together and build a coalition. It's insane, you know, to to make that leap. And so, so much of what I think has to happen, and I understand this is what you're doing with food, this is really great. This is what I try to do with the podcast conversations we have, we also have a Burmese language podcast, we also have panels, we bring different guests together. But in these kinds of conversations, to to do what I call sharing space, is that we're we're not going to push from from limited understanding and mistrust to consensus building, that's never going to work now, can we just have a safe place where we can just share space, and we can just acknowledge, you know, intergenerationally and or ethnically diaspora versus in country? Or an allies that are that are that are supporting and the perspective they have? How can we all just share space and have dialogue and conversation where we can simply acknowledge other truths and other ways of being without the pressure of having to, you know, act on it, or do something with it or, or come together, but just acknowledge this is, this is the truth of, of different types of coexisting realities. And if we can just do that, if there's just way to be able to manage those conversations, and those, you know, just just the mere sharing space, then maybe there's hope for something beyond that, at least that's what I think. Yeah,

Trish  1:37:02

absolutely. I agree. Like, even accepting the differences between us culturally, as well, within the, like, different families that were growing up. Like, there's all these anomalies, though, like, that we all grew up with, and the differences that we have, right. And we have to accept and really acknowledge that it's okay for us to be together, even though we don't have the same views, even though we don't have the same values, you know, and it's crazy to even have like, like, what, like we grew up in, like, different families and like different stories and different outlooks. So like, but at the same time to come together and just and just be together and respect each other. Our differences, especially and even, like, there's another thing with a lot of Myanmar, Facebook forums that I follow, and then people just quite a lot, and then healthy arguments. And it's, it's good to have a good debate, it's good to have increments, it grows people, right, but then a certain extent, when you're like, doing crazy, silly stuff, like social punishments and stuff like that, that's a bit too extreme. And I feel a little bit like, against that whole idea of Yeah, of like, like, Oh, I like I am right, you know, like be if you're not with us, like you are wrong, and then we have to, on all different views, you know, whether you Corinne, or or whatever, like, we have to, like, let go of all of this first.

Host  1:38:45

Yeah, yeah, well, just holding on to a concept of right and wrong. I mean, that's a huge burden, you know, it's a huge pain to have to feel that. And when I first came to Myanmar, professionally, I was leading training courses. And one of the parts of the training courses I was leading with with Burmese of all different backgrounds and ethnicities, was the ability to critically discuss different experiences in the training session, and to be able to, to express and to listen to different understandings of what that experience was. And the first roadblock I ran into was people were, they were so afraid to be able to have different opinions. They were so scared of it. And so I had to build these sessions in that would just kind of unpack and examine where is this fear coming from? And, you know, what is the what is the Well, first of all, is it possible to be able to express differences in a respectful civil way where we actually grow from it? And if it's possible, how do we do it and how do we feel and, and it was fascinating unpacking that because you know what, because I came to ask it very genuinely of what's what's preventing this deeper exploration. And so often it was fear of offense, fear Have of just the mere fact that there could be differences of opinions was just intensely uncomfortable for so many people. And just wanting to use non critical we statements that would just cover those kinds of critical engagements to just kind of have this blanket pleasantry sugarcoated feel that, that everything's just okay. And once we were able to get past that and be able to have experiences where we could all honestly reflect on how we felt about it, it was, it was just really empowering to see and much more empowering for them to experience what it was like to actually have very different opinions and to be able to express those different opinions. And to feel safe and comfortable and civil and empowered doing it, you know, not scared that it's that you can you can, you can feel you can have an opinion about something, it's so different than what someone else is, but that's safe, that it's safe to share. And you know what it's also safe to hear, it's also okay to be able to listen to someone whose experience is something so different than what you can imagine. You don't need to respond to it, you don't need to you don't need to have you know, to put your own out there. Sure you can. But you can also just have a moment of silence where you just understand that this is how this person sees and experiences the world. And I think that, you know, there is a day just as we talk about the the beauty of some of these the lanes dissolving and people coming together more from different backgrounds and people I would have never met. That's very true. But it's also true that there's, you know, that that because of the years of mistrust, and intentional, intentionally planned mistrust, but because of this, often when different groups and Myanmar don't agree with each other, they don't, they don't talk, they don't share space, they don't talk, they just kind of turn away and say can you believe this guy? Can you believe what he's saying? And you just get more and more segmented? And that's definitely the danger right now. I think.

Trish  1:41:54

Yeah. And also like, I mean, I don't I don't blame all that really religious fanatics. With the whole, like, Buddhism going on back home, and especially now. Yeah, then, you know, Buddhism has always been part of our, our whole like religion, just in general. And then using that to round people up and then like, if you don't believe us, you're going to hell, or like, and that shaming culture is like a, like, not just fear but fear of being wrong and then where is it coming from? It's a shame, right? And then if you are being shamed, you will be tamed that kind of thing. But we have to be okay with making mistakes, bing, bing, bing, embarrassing, and like, even even the smallest thing hon, like this is a culture thing that I noticed, like with my parents and also this current generation, like, I didn't grow up learning Burmese, I learned it like halfway through. I went through an international school and all the stuff so my Burmese is not as good as I would like to be. So only through cu I've like learned to read and write like writing it has specially been so ridiculously hard so like I'd still make these crazy spelling mistakes and I'm so thankful to have these cool friends who are so like fluent in Myanmar, Burmese language and then they have this like autocorrect thing constantly going it becomes like very annoying to a point but at the same time they're like do not make mistakes in worries because like that is embarrassing your consider an educated and that's exactly even what like my mom says to so she would like like spell check me every single time every single and then if I make one or like my dad makes one and like they get shamed for it, you know like and then and I see that in my friends I see that in like these these different groups that I'm in Facebook groups and that is because like the online like like spell check like grammar Nazis and that becomes like a very interesting thing for me to like, like just say like, oh, what kind of background Did you grew up in? Like what are your parents like and makes me into like intrigued about the upbringing that they have. And same goes with like the differences in like, religion as well, even though there's Christianity that's Muslim family, there's like Buddhist family, but they all share one thing is that it's there, this religion, stuff. very dogmatic and very pushy and very light. boundary crossing stuff. With my generation and my, my parents, my mom and I got a lot closer, being able to talk about the stuff freely but and to get to this point that we had, I had to establish these like really big boundaries with her telling that these are things you cannot say to me, these are things you can say to my gay friends, you know, and like gay marriages, okay. And like really like stigmatized stuff. And I've only been able to do that with my parents, I haven't been able to, like my other relatives are still like, like, shocked by the idea of like, a lot of these things. So like, even me, like not having a religion, for example, or, yeah, and they're there. I come from a very, like, Buddhist, conservative family background. So for me to like, go to a temple and just sit there and not pray and do the whole, like, why thing and it shifts them that I've become very westernized. But I'm like, no, like, and I had to tell them this, like the difference of, like, my beliefs and whatnot. And yeah, and it was weird, because my dad, he's, he's, he's Muslim, he was Muslim, and he couldn't read it. So our family has always been looked at as even in our neighborhood, as like, like, like, strange. It's a strange Muslim marrying a Buddhist girl. And it's always, I always feel like an outsider, you know, like that, like, very singled out all the time with my mom's family who are very Buddhist, and my dad's family who just don't even like refuse to see me like that kind of stuff like that nation that runs, like, deep. And then knowing all of these cool friends lately, and talking about like, like, like, like, who has similar history as mine. And then they were also going through experiences me even worse in some some situation, and I'm like, oh, okay, we're all gonna fit.

Host  1:47:29

That's what happens when you talk. Yeah, you figured out that you're not alone with your trauma and fears, isolation and everything else that yeah, that every family is, is imperfect in their own unique way.

Trish  1:47:40

Right, right. Exactly.

Host  1:47:44

Yeah, boy, this is what well, this has been really great to talk about all these topics, your history of food, and what you're doing in Chiangmai. And where, where food is becoming a medium to not just bring people together internally, but also, externally speaking, be able to share the message of, of what's happening in Myanmar, and put that on people's radar through food storytelling, as you call it. So this, this, it's just been great to hear all of this. And before we go, Is there is there any other Any final thoughts or, or things you'd like to leave the audience with?

Trish  1:48:18

Um, I just want to highlight that, like, especially people with money, especially like organizations to not forget us, we're still here still going through things. Still fighting? Maybe not like as, like, out there as as much as before, but we're still here. And to not forget us. Yeah.

Host  1:48:44

Absolutely. Yeah. And for those that might find themselves in Thailand, how can they sample some of what you're doing? Um,

Trish  1:48:51

just go to the mama page. And we all have, like we have I post all kinds of information in here, workshops and whatnot. So it's all there. Yep.

Host  1:49:01

Great. And we'll also have a link to that in the show notes so people can find it more easily. And hopefully, you'll you'll make some new friends from this.

Trish  1:49:08

Yeah. I hope so, too. Well, I made friends with you. So that's great. When you plan on cooking up some foods. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for your podcast, by the way, like it's been. It's been a wonder. I've been following you. Oh, great.

Host  1:49:24

Oh, great. That's good to hear. Thank you. Well, thank you again, thank you for appearing on it's just been a lovely conversation. Okay, thank you very much. Many listeners know that in addition to running these podcast episodes, we also run a nonprofit that are Burma, which carries out humanitarian projects across Myanmar. While we regularly post about current needs and proposals from groups on the ground, we also handle emergency requests, often in matters that are quite literally life or death. When those urgent requests come in, we have no time to conduct targeted fundraisers as these funds are often needed within hours. So please consider helping us to maintain this emergency fund. We want to stress that literally any amount you can give allows us to respond more flexibly and effectively when disaster strikes. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities you need most donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or your mark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission that or Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar. Available at a local crafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's a local crafts spelled a LOKCR a ft s one word a local crafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.