Transcript: Episode #49: Literally A Nightmare Scenario
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Thiri, which appeared on April 29, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:07
I'm really excited to bring you the upcoming interview with a very special guest. You'll hear her discussing all the great courageous work that she is currently engaged in. And if you feel inspired to help her with these efforts, please consider making a donation earmarked for her projects. Or feel free to give a general donation that will support the wider movement in BMR. Our ongoing support is so helpful and appreciated by the Burmese people during these dark days. Simply go to Insight myanmar.org slash donation to contribute today. or stay tuned to the end of the episode to hear more options. Now, let's hear from that guest herself. No, they don't.
01:30
Josie ball.
Thiri 02:06
Hey,
Host 02:06
why are they?
02:11
a goody? Goody.
Host 02:38
Right, I'm delighted to be checking in with theory. Theory. Thanks so much for joining us here at Insight Myanmar podcast.
Thiri 02:45
Thank you for inviting me for this podcast. And yeah, I'm happy to share.
Host 02:50
Yeah, so we have so much to talk about in terms of what you're doing, what you're observing what your roles are there. But before we get into that, I just found out that we actually have a relationship going back for quite a few years. And I'm, I was quite delighted to hear about that. Why don't you share a bit about how we first met and where our connection goes back to.
Thiri 03:13
So like it was, it was 10 years ago. And it was in 2007 or eight I want to the American Center to study English. And I barely speak English and I just finished my high school and and so I went there and there was a free class for the English learner. And it was also an accident because I asked the lady at the at the library if I want to attend the English class and she put me into that class that you organize. And so I was one of the students there the teacher or the TA t ot trainers that you train, and then they will have in a classroom with the Burmese Burmese Lehner. So I was one of the one of the students there. And back in 2008.
Host 04:03
Yeah, and that's just so cool, because you're going back to my first couple months in the country. And to clarify for listeners what that was, that was actually a course where I was training Burmese English teachers how to teach English, this actually wasn't to T to T was a course after that, which was the training of trainers. And for this course, I was working with about a dozen Burmese English teachers and I would train them in English teaching methodology. And then they would go on in the afternoon. So in the morning, we do like English, different English teaching techniques and such. And then the afternoons they would actually try those techniques on teaching English language students at the American Center. And so what theory has told me Is she was one of those students I didn't actually interact directly with those students. I was interacting more with the teachers and then observing them and taking notes and we were going back and talking and so It's just so incredibly cool to hear that one of those young students that was in those classes at the back trying to learn basic English is I am now having this fluent conversation with and we're going to be doing more than just practicing your English, we're going to be getting into a lot of serious and heavy topics. But it all goes back to those English one on one classes at the American Center.
Thiri 05:22
Yeah. And also, it was interesting, I think I listened to you explaining to the court at the SEC, which is a at the American, the American Center library, the upper floor, and I barely understood what you said, because I thought you speak too fast. And I didn't understand I adore it, I only understand 10% of what you said that time,
Host 05:47
right, I probably did speak too fast, I probably still speak too fast. Here, I'm at a level that you're able to understand me now. And, you know, that's just so interesting, because when I taught that course, my predecessor who was there was also bringing these teacher training courses to Burmese English teachers. And she had warned me before going in that the usual types of courses that we were running in other parts of the world, that the level of those courses, we couldn't run here, because the students couldn't my students, I don't mean, you actually, I mean, the teachers that were in the course, that they, they, they wouldn't be able to handle that workload, and that that level of activity that we were expecting, which I really didn't buy into, and I really felt that I wanted to run that course at the same standards and curriculum that we did anywhere else, and just do whatever I could to bring those teachers to meet those standards and have faith that they could do them if we scaffolded it and set it the right way. And they very much did. And I've never really forgotten that experience. Because to me, it's always spoken to seeing other foreigners come into the country and have certain kind of biases or discriminations or judgments about what it is they think people there can or can't do, when for my experience, I really feel the way to go about it is to have the same level of standards you have anywhere else. But the methods in getting there, you have to adjust based on what you're seeing of your participants and your students in terms of what their needs are and how to help them get to those levels. And that course definitely proved it.
07:23
Yeah.
Thiri 07:26
Yeah, it was, yeah, it was, um, that was the beginning of my journey itself. And I, you can see, like, the the impact, the course has an impact on the student like me, that I am here today I speak English fluently, and I already got the Masters in in the States. And yeah, I work in the bid organizations and all the things. So there's definitely an impact. And, and, and, and this is the effort of that teacher, the Burmese teacher who, who train us there. And it was the beginning of my journey and everything, like learning English, and also other activities. Those days, because those days, things were not open up. And things were quite difficult to, to, to get like we have very limited resources, but from there, like before the country opened up, and then we have a country opened up in a little bit, a little bit in between. And now we're going back to the closed society. So that in that in 10 years, the change has been like up and downs. And there's interesting to witness the 10 years experience.
Host 08:38
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure and this is just kind of a live on air catch up between you and I have like a decade plus. And it also fits into this podcast interview. So as we catch up, why don't you let me know what you went on to do after that course. What that from that very beginning course what it kind of started and inspired you in you and then where you went on from that and how you've ended up where you are now since February 2021. And what you've been doing so I know that's a mouthful, so give us what it is you want to share.
Thiri 09:15
So after the course I they selected the two people to I don't know how many people but they give some people some scholarship to attend at the at the English class, the official English class at the American Center, which you usually pay around $100 Sunday, which is beyond my beyond my budget. And so they give you that course give us the scholarship dates in our class, they selected two people and somehow I got that scholarship to attend at the level of class at the American Center because that tie American Center has the English classes and also the elective classes. So for the for I got taken, I got a scholarship to attend that the level level class. In the end I wasn't, I wasn't chosen at the beginning it was somebody else and, and somehow I got it I don't even remember I don't even know and I don't remember how I got it. But anyway, so we have to take the entrance exam, and then the Naga Cyclone happen. And they did, we weren't sure if we're gonna get the scholarship, but then I ended up getting it because I, I pass the I pass the the entrance entrance with the quite, I think quite a bit I met that threshold. So I could attend at the American Center. And then I want to improve my English speaking. So I want to the student clap and the the and did some public speaking trainings and I started speaking English there. And then I also that I wanted to study abroad I wanted to study in, in Singapore, but I won, I my parents wouldn't afford. So I, I need to apply for the scholarship. So I started working at the local NGO. And that's helped the HIV woman so I worked with her. And and then I and then it was around the time of the in 2009 2010. It was around the time that the country is talking about the moving to the talking about the transition and the elections coming up. And we have to learn the election trainings. And then we have elections in 2010. And in 2020 10, even though the country opened up, we were not quite sure, even though we have an election, we were not quite sure if it is true or not. So there were very few people in the country who understand politics a little bit in the, in the UN who speak English. So they're like they're they're very few people with two skill set. And I happen to be the one that one I work with the Jewish organizations. And then I, I talked to the international media when they come to the country because I I speak English and I understand a little bit about politics. So later one journalist asked me if I want to be a translator for him. And so I became a translator for him. And later I got an I became a fixer I was hired as a fixer, because those day there are very few people who work with the international media because you can be arrested or you can be targeted by the authority if you work with the media and it and it was a really great situation that time. So I happen to be one of the fixer there. And then in in 2004, I started working for working with the New York Times. And later I work with the Human Rights Watch, and, and the other human rights organization until I study abroad in 2017. And then I got I got Fulbright in 2017. And I did my Master's in human rights in, in the state. And then I got back in 2019 and 20 2020 is it's the wasted time and we mostly stay at home, even though I've been doing some research work. And then 2021 We are now in the coop, and I'm now working for, again for the New York Times.
Host 13:38
Thank you, thank you. That's a really succinct summary for covering a lot of years there. And I do remember those scholarships that we gave out at the very end where there were a couple available and the Burmese teachers got together the English teachers and decided who to give them to. And it sounds like you were the runner up. And I smiled at that, because so much of my life has turned out by me being the runner up to something that I wasn't quite able to get. And then the person in front of me not able to do it for whatever reason, and me stepping into that role. And so, so much of my own life has gotten that way as well. So you've just been so incredibly busy. And you've done so much in this time. And that's that's just wonderful. And I'm just I'm really looking forward to exploring more about where your journey has taken you and more importantly, how that journey has set you up for what you've been doing these last couple months. And to go into that it sounds like there's been two fields that you've really been focused on. One has been being the fixer, for journalists and being in journalism and another has been looking at human rights and ethnic areas and such so we can explore each of those one by one. So let's go first in the fixer because you would kind of brought that up a little bit. I've heard of the term fixture before but I it's always something that seems to lurk in the background that I've never quite known exactly what they do or how that works. So Why don't you tell us a bit about what you've done in the role of a fixer and what your your journalistic life has been like? Yeah,
Thiri 15:07
yeah. Thanks for asking, because fixer is a term like people usually ask, like, what is the fixer and people don't really know. So I my definitions of fixer is the combination of a journalist, a translator and end and the tour guide, but local guide, it's not just toward, but you, you have to you you do the largest at work. So, for example, like my work as a fixer, the work involved I, I would help the journalist develop the story angle, like when they comes into the country, because they new to the country, or they may they may not be aware of every single things happening in the country. So they will come in with the sort of idea that they want to do this, and they want to do that. And, and so my job is to make it happen. So do make it happen involve that I suggest some story idea what will be the what will be the, what is happening, and what will be the story word, so that I think that's the that's what the expertise of a fixer is, as opposed to a translator, because you need to understand a little bit about journalism, well, not a little bit that you didn't actually need to understand about journalism and what is newsworthy, and what is not, and how to make it into how do you make some mega things into the news worthy. And so that kind of thing, and you have to find the sources. And once you get it, once you get the story idea develop, you have to know who would be the good person to talk to good sources or talk to in this in this piece. And so, we will suggest the people I will suggest who would be the good people for this and for that and, and that. And then I have to arrange a meeting with those people. And with the sources, and also finding the background information needed for a story to run. Because the international media, the way they work is more with the news story. So you have to develop it into a story. So so I have to find the information that will be suited for this story. And also who will be the good person to talk to you the sources, it can be on the record for the quote or off the record for the information. So I arrange that kind of meetings and one, if that person that we interview doesn't speak English, so then I translate, I translate for them. And when I translate, it's not just translating the language, it's also translating the culture in the, in the meaning behind the, what is going on in the, in the situation. So so it's it's more it's rather than the language itself, the translation, it's also reading the environment and reading the culture and reading the meanings of the hidden meanings of what that person say culturally in the in the in that setting. And so that kind of work involved. And if and also I do the largest arrangement because the largest one since foreign journalists come into the country I arrange, if I need to arrange, arrange a car and if I need to arrange the Trump internal trouble ticket, the air tickets or other other things, I arranged that kind of logistic things and the permissions to access to certain areas and hiring a local translator if I move to other place where I don't speak the language I have needs to hire another fixer another translator and so I arrange arrange that kind of that that setting, I arranged a fixer or also arranged that payments and and itinerary of our trip. And you're all involved. that that that that is a that involves the largest thing the mainly working with the permission stuff because dealing with the authorities in Myanmar is pretty tricky business and it's it took a really long time and you never know if you're going to get the permission, permission to certain area or get the interview with the authority. So so like so especially when you go to the conflict areas you have it's difficult to get the permission but it's your skill set. And if you're if your personality if you're personal it's yours Do I need your connection that will help you get that kind of get that kind of permission? So that's the word that I do. And pretty much everything behind the same for any story. A fixer is somebody who is behind the scene to make a story happen and to make a story. Publish, or either print or the, the, the television piece or the anything so or the radio, any piece that international people listen or watch or read. It's in about Nehemiah, we are behind the thing.
Host 20:41
Okay, so it sounds like you're really doing just about everything with the story, I had no idea that fixtures handled that many parts of it and had to wear that many hats. And as you said, it's not just a question of doing something by the book, but having to be sounds like incredibly creative and dynamic. And going into situations where there really are no rule books, and you have to make your own way. And because you're so involved in international media, I'm really curious to know, what is your view on how well they're accurately capturing your country and your people and your culture? What are they getting? Well, and what are they generally missing?
Thiri 21:20
So about the accuracy and the and I will say facts, and the and facts are accurate, because they they're very good at fact checking and confirmations and everything. So we have to hold a pretty high standard, in fact, check ins in the sector, but I think they're still the nuances in addressing the culture. And the people ask me, Emma. So that's what I think
Host 21:52
you're right, you're missing the richness of all the different kinds of experience and culture that you can really have there. And they're in goes the nuance where, and the nuance might seem like a small detail. But really, I think that when you're missing the nuance, you might have all the facts, right. But you don't necessarily have the tools to understand and interpret those facts. So I'm curious in your role in talking to so many different types of media doing so many different types of stories? Do you try to hit hint at some of this nuance and greater context and some of the simplicity that they're they're trying to go down the road of making things more black and white and less realistic in terms of how things actually are? Do you try to inform them of that? And if so, how does how is that usually received?
Thiri 22:44
Yes, I am. Um, I try that part a lot. Because I'm, I'm a little bit stuck on in the way that I work and, and I'm principal on on my own on my values, and I treat people as the, I don't treat people as a source I who talked to the media, because they are people and the human being and, and they, they, they are friends and they are our, you know, the people in the country and I can come cross with them at some point. So, so with the people, I mean, the people look, the local people that I talked to who we use us, we use their voices as the sources. Before the international media, most of the time, I tried to explain the complexities of it before jumping into the story. Because I usually, if they're new to the country, I explained to them in Lund, the, the situations and in and then most of the time, I would say I could resist and I pushed for it that if I'm not happy with if I see some things need to be fixed, I push for it, like I was like, okay, not this and not that, and I don't want to I don't this is not this, this is not the black and white things and I'm quite vocal on it also in the other panel or in my own writings, and I'm critical in the self reflection of our own work. And, and most of the time it was okay that I could present and I was I could do I could share voice in in the story and most people respected but also some time there. Our voices are not my voices are not respected because there's a power dynamic between the, between the fixers and the UN and the international journalists and the editor. Sometimes, even if the journalist is so agree to it and understand the editors in as well like in New York or Singapore or whatever they they may not understand. So it's really it's is really a tricky part that we play and reading, we could push for it. But at the same time, the power dynamic always stop. And, and just because we are local people, and we are not even.
25:13
It's
Thiri 25:15
even though people treated us with respect, there's always a vacuums of, of power in the decision makings in how the story unfolds at the end of it doesn't matters, what you thought, in the end, it's mostly for there was an audience or the and so it changed into the language either either print or anyway, so it changes the language of how they understand rather than the complexity. And there's also a limitation of the media because that because media is so light that they cannot address on some nuances, because they have a limited numbers of words and the number of page that they could run. So they cannot make like a real, they cannot make it like a research and explain the complexities into different things. So the way media works is more like two more to get the attention of what is going on. And then maybe other people can continue digging into more detail of it. But media is more like showing the spotlight. And then and then anyone who are interested in it can continue working. But But yeah, I most of the people that I work with are ethical generalists, and they respect to the local people. But I also met the other people who are not really who may be really good at their reporting, but not in terms of the process, I don't see the respect. And I see many disrespectful behavior of the behaviors and the attitudes of the, of the journalist to the local people. And so that's really sometimes if I see those people, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say anything, but I just I thought I I am skeptical of their report, whatever they say in their report, like how much they care about the people and everything. But as a person, I'm behind the scene, I saw how they treat the people that they talk to, or during the interview or after the interview, that it stays. I'm cynical of some journals and and, and even though they may be for the bid media, and I'm skeptical of, of how they report, so later these day, I only work with the people, rather than the media itself. It doesn't matter how big they are. But I only work with the people that I feel that I can share my voice.
Host 27:44
Right, right. That's so interesting to hear. And it's so tragic also that when you have talked about having first hand knowledge with certain big name Western reporters that just by the way, they're covering the story, you can see they lack a certain kind of respect or interest or engagement to get it right. And then of course, that's the view that gets spread around about your country and your people. And when as you're talking, it's just so funny how these things all come together, because I can't help but reflect on what I said to begin this conversation, which was that when I first got into Myanmar, I talked to my predecessor, it was it was an American and had actually British British American, but had been in a position of training teachers and told me flat out that the courses that we usually run to train teachers, and other places in the world, it cannot, it cannot work here. Because the types of participants that are coming on this course simply don't have the resources to be able to be held to those standards. And, you know, excuse my language, but I thought that was complete bullshit. And I felt that, if that's true, I want to know that's true, not by some other white person telling me that, but by me trying the same course that I run anywhere else, and trying as hard as I can. And then seeing from my own experience after several times, it just doesn't work. I don't want to buy it any other way. And and if I have to find another way to reach those goals, so if the goals remain the same, but the way that we're going to try to work with local conditions, to be able to reach those same goals, but just do it by better understanding and perspective and being interested in being curious and sensitive about local context. Let's see if that will work. And it absolutely did. I mean, on that course the the work and courses that followed, the work that came out from the participants was every bit at a level that I'd seen anywhere with with participants in the world. And when you're talking the anecdote that comes to mind, when people aren't curious, they do the same or when they're not sensitive, they do the same thing that they've done in other countries. And when it doesn't work, they don't necessarily have the Curiosity or the self reflection to think about why it's not working. And where I'm going with this is I have a specific example. Mind, I remember a training session that one one trainer who was like, you know, flown in from New York or something to meet with some of the young leaders and Myanmar to give some kind of specialized training. At one point in the training, he was trying to talk about, like the ubiquitous of brands and capitalism around the world. I don't remember what his point was. But his metaphor was Coca Cola. And he was talking about how Coca Cola was everywhere. And it was something that was produced anywhere, and you could you can buy and pick it up everywhere you went. And it was this metaphor he was trying to explain. And what he didn't understand was at that point, Myanmar was one of the only countries in the world that didn't have a Coca Cola bottling plant. Coke was available in Myanmar, but it was only available through imports from Thailand. And so at that time, not today, but at that time, Coca Cola was kind of like an upper class, expensive beverage that you didn't have very often you only had for special occasions. And it was kind of the opposite of a product that was just anywhere at anytime that you wanted to get. And so his whole training was around this notion of something that would work in almost every other country and culture. But it didn't work there. And he wasn't curious enough, or introspective enough to be able to go and investigate. You know, what, why the things that were working elsewhere wasn't working here, and instead was passing that off to, you know, the participants not being able to necessarily understand what it was he was trying to say or to get across. And you know, this was on them, instead of realizing that he just needed to modify and adjust what he was trying to do to get them there in a different way. And so going back to what you're experiencing in journalism, and some of the the journal, the foreign journalists that come and that are trying to tell the story of your country and trying to share that with an international audience, I kind of want to flip the question. And we're talking so much about these foreign journalists that have bigger names or work for bigger networks. What about the young? And maybe not so young, Burmese journalists? What about the Burmese journalists thing I said young because that's kind of on my mind with this current coup is that we're seeing this extraordinary crop of mainly young journalists that are really getting their chance to show their stuff and tell their story and be on the scene. But of course, journalism has been a field in Myanmar for many, many years and goes back even centuries. And so according to your knowledge of what you're seeing, not just about being a fixer for foreigners coming in, but what you've been seeing now and in the past several years, from the Burmese journalists on the scenes, what what do you find with them? What kind of story? are they telling? How is that different?
Thiri 32:43
Huh? And yeah, it was, I would say they're incredible, especially in the coop time, and they the way they report, and they are risking their life because they're in the frontline and going out there and also, especially the people in the United States, or in different states and regions, where there are very few, you know, very few meteors are, can reach out to, but even the local agency cannot reach out to every state and region in that country. So the journalists are really doing, you know, the, the Yeah, they are zhaan. Or maybe they're my age. So they are they're doing they're, they're doing their best. And it's incredible in a way for now, like they're I like I will say here that it is what you call like the divisions. So we started developing the media as in 2007 2008, but it was very few private media, and we barely know only like one or two of them. But before that, when we say the media is more like the entertainment or interviewing the celebrities, and everyday not the news media. So the news media started developing around 2007 2008. But it's, it became more around the 2009 2010. And so since then, there are lots of people, lots of young people curious about politics, and they they join to the journalism and the they report it. But you know, the journalism in the in the country, those journalists who are not when they started it, they're not necessarily coming from the net when they started, it wasn't that oh, I want to be a journalist. I think there will be very few people who, who became a journalist because they wanted to, it's more like they were interested in most people who became a journalist coming from the activist background, which mean they're interested in a country's affairs. So they are so they there were very limited choices for us to to assess to those to the resources out there. And so they're very, very few career for the people that time. So you cannot Don't do the politics or you cannot really, that very few political science causes causes in everything plus the situation of the journalist itself, living in the third world country with lots of crisis. We are not the outsider in every crisis, we are part of that part of the crisis. So we, we are the article we are the character ourselves in our story. So you cannot differentiate between the the activists versus the journalists. And in a way, even though people are trying to be very professional, and people are trying to be ethical and in principle, but around the time since a rohin, even though the media is developed, the way they report about the Rohingya crisis was, was not quite principle, they will vary. We noticed there were bias. In the there were lots of misinformation regarding the local media reporting about the Rohingya issues, and they end in mind the suffering of the Rangers, people and the way they the language they use and everything. So that time, it was a bit a bit. I would say they were really good at the general political reporting, but in terms of the Rangers reporting, their quality is really the journalism standard is really questionable. And but now, like, with after the cool, the situation has changed, I think they're more they trying to be more ethical than they tried to be. I noticed the news reporting are getting better after the after the coup, and I saw the effort of the local journalists in the in verifying, and the also like writing the news to be more yet more representing and I think that's because they saw more responsibility in them. So why the other Gen very limited media access to 13 places, so many journalists started seeing their role. And they, they they add more value their role more than ever, and they they are they they they are more like 100 a night they trying to develop their skill set since a coop. And it's super brave that they are working on the ground, and they can be in the reporting in the coop as a local journalist is really is really challenging because you can be you can be shot dead at the spot if you are covering the protests. And, and you can be arrested at home or you can be arrested with because you have camera. And and so it's really tricky. And it's really risky for them. And they lost many people lost a job the local journalists, because the region's trying to shut down the the the media company, so many people lost their job that it is really challenging for the journalists to continue their work and the coop because they can be they can be arrested, they can be beaten and lots of things could happen to them. So So yeah, it's there. They're super brave in covering the news, especially the local journalists, because without them, we wouldn't be able to know even like for us working for the international media, we cannot go to every places, we are more I am I my cell is a desk reporter. So I have to rely a lot on the on the local reporters. And they are the starting point. And without them, we wouldn't know and especially with the internet shut down in different places. It's soup, it's really difficult to get the information. So the local media are trying really, really hard. And they have done a great job in getting the story out and risking their life. And very few people would know their effort. And when I say local people and local journalists, that also includes the local journalists working for the local media, and the local journalists working for the international media, like people like us working for the international media, our names are not credited, even though the story maybe viral or like loved by everyone, but people don't know that we existed. Because for the security reason we cannot put our name credit in, and very few people know that we we exist. We don't exist, actually. So but we have been trying to produce the news about the country. So local journalists here, spending their own money reporting for their own country and trying to make sure the news is on the on the platform.
Host 39:48
Right. I see. I want to go back to something you said just a bit ago where you mentioned that you found that the reporting of many local reporters around the Rohingya crisis wasn't add up to standard, can you share a bit more? Why you think there were so many problems at that time inaccurate reporting? Yeah.
Thiri 40:11
So it was, one is the SS, they, if you sometimes have the horrible and the brutality of the military, you wouldn't believe until you see them. And so, one thing the local journalist, they cannot, why they cannot address will be the SS, because you go to Rakhi a call it you need lots of money and you have to fly and then, and then different procedures and everything. So most of the local media, they don't have that kind of money to send a journalist to, to do an in depth story. So, maybe one main thing I would say is the is the SS, the lack of access to them. And as opposed to the international media, they cannot spend so much money on the on, on, on on the trip. And although they may not be able to hire a local translator and the fixer, so that's one thing. The other thing is that this is the as I said, the journalism in Myanmar is it's, it's into train with the with the activism, and, and so they people in Myanmar, they may be politically they may be politically liberal, but we are brainwashed for forever. Like since our since we grew up, we are brainwashed by the binary genes. And the region is famous for the previous military dictatorship is known as known. It's no Meza, you really good at divide and rule. So that was the brainwash mechanism that they use of us in them. So they always try to make the Rangers as the we never learned about Rangers or anything in our textbook, but around 2012, when the first the case happened, then then they started talking about, you know, Rangers outside people, there's no Rangers, the only like Bengali and people who tried to manipulate the politics are trying to, you know, destroying the countries and every day. So that's like we are brainwashed for for decades. And so we have a limited information and limited assets. And so, it, it's, it's only happened right when you won the state sponsor, derivations of the ethnics. And it's, it's easier for people to for a long time, it's easier to people to believe that these people don't belong to us, and especially the country was in transition. So anything they don't want, and people were really worried that the transition from democracy will be shifted that time, you know, transition from democracy will be shifted and getting back into the hands of the hands of the military. So their idea is just to us, just to push the country to another, you know, to a better to a place where the military cannot control over. So for them, the main goal is to have transition in a states of democracy, which is free from the military. So they are pushing for it in the journalist that journalists are also I my analysis is that the journalists are also like, coming from the activism background. And so they want to push the country to that goal, like to have a get out of the military. So for them anything that challenge that fort, same as they they seem as some the same as the not genuine effort. So maybe that's why they cannot, they cannot see beyond the ethnicities and the citizenship boundary. So one day approach, the Rohingya issue, but I will say the main thing is the SS that they don't have finance, financial power and other resources to get to the get to the areas to understand the suffering of the Rangers or in to, to realize if it is true,
Host 44:11
right, right. And you mentioned that during this current crisis, that you're seeing an improvement on the part of local journalists, and yet you're also working with a number of international journalists, and I'm sure even the ones you're not working with you're reading and following their materials. So what are you finding as the differences between how things are being reported and shared in country and how they're being shared out of country to foreigners?
Thiri 44:35
I think the daily life it's missing. It's not it's it's missing, not only in the international media, also in the local media, the daily life of the people in the life, that the terror in the insecurity that we face in daily life, those things are missing. The way you know it's we was the killings and everything. They you will see killing and as I call like, other you know, other brutalities and everything, you will see it in the, in the news, but the amount that we are facing it's, it's far more than that, like far more than the, than what is written in the news or what is shown in the news. It was daily life. struggle, and we have. And in Yeah, and the story about our life that like, you know, not, we're not just crying, we're not, we're not we have, how do you say like, how do I put it like, okay, we have that, yeah, horrible things happen at the same time, we have. We have life, which mean like people are staying with people staying going to the shopping centers, and people stay going to the going to the bars, or like people still going to the going out on the streets, and they are trying to run their normal life. Even though it's not normal, there is a new normal happening in, in Myanmar, and doesn't mean that these people are happy with what is going on. But it's a way of, it's a way of like, healing their mind. And they're also like criticisms towards those people who could, trying to maintain their normal life. And so there is a there is a criticism towards them as as if they have no, you know, sympathies towards the people who dine in the sector. But But you know, like the journalists, they're saying, when they do the those people who are going to those bar in etc, they also like people who reported in the daytime, in battlefields and risked their life. And that at the end of the day, they go to the bar, or the protester who protests and who will in the, in the front line and in defending the security forces with the life round with the fire get firecrackers they will come and to those places, and it's a way of survival surviving. And, and those kind of normal life, we may not see it in the in, in the news, because the way the news work, whenever there's a crisis is more about the bad things, and or they want to highlight how bad the situation is. But but we also have other life behind the scene. So So I did not want to dismiss it. But that doesn't mean we ended mine. That doesn't mean the horrible, the horrible things happen to us is, it's not as bad as it seems in the media, it is worse than it seems in the media, but still people are trying to find a way to survive.
Host 48:01
Right. And that's what's so interesting about your saying is you're actually the two things, two examples you're giving is that on one hand, things are actually worse than are being reported. But on the other hand, even though things are worse than then we're reading the news, people are trying to have some semblance of normality, in a greater terror than we're even imagining. There's been reporting. So that's quite a contrast and juxtaposition. Hold in your mind if you're not in the country, and you're trying to understand how things actually feel.
Thiri 48:31
Yeah, I have to, you know, when I want if I talk to my friends abroad, you know, sometimes they come and cry, and they were like, um, so my friend, Burmese friends who are abroad, and they were worried about Myanmar, and she one of my friends, she cannot have Fleiss since since the coup, like she doesn't go out and she doesn't do the shopping anymore. She doesn't cook for herself, and she cannot concentrate on her on her studies and anything because thing is over one binding, minor incidents happenings in the incident happening in the country and whatever she hear or whatever she read, whatever she consumed is the is the negative things happening. And so she thought that things were really bad and, and so like she was so yeah, things were really bad. And she was she couldn't really she was crying almost all the time and she couldn't have life and she feel guilty. So people who are outside has that kind of guilt. But if you're away from home and if you cannot witness a situation, it with your eyes you try and if you own if you have to picture things through the media, and things are you tend to see things worse than the reality. The reality is worse, but not in a way that the that people who are not There, imagine,
Host 50:01
right So on one hand, you talk about how there's a normality that's happening through this, that people that are not in Myanmar don't experience. And by the way, I'm just like your friend, I'm also having a hard time going out and cooking and having any sense of normality before the coup, even though I'm not there. But on the other hand, you mentioned that things are actually worse than what we're reading and how it's being reported. So you've described a bit how this normality is trying to take place, can you share a bit of detail about how the terror is actually worse than what we're reading? Because reading it's already pretty bad.
Thiri 50:40
Yeah, what we're not safe at our at home, like, you can arrest your you never know when your doors will be broken into. And, like, here's how we live like, you know, I, every night before, after 8pm I'm scared for no reason I something is, if the.com I feel like something's gonna happen, and are they going to arrest me or anybody gotten arrested or with the fears that we live. And then they we never know, you never know when they going to break into your home. So I'm not living at my homes, and I'm living at another safe place. And the you know, every night before I go to bat, I have to hide my phones, into different places, like in my, in, I hide it in my underwear boxes, because the soldiers are superstitious, and they don't want to touch on the moments in the wear. So I usually put hide my phones in those underwear so that they don't touch. Even if they breaks into my, my, my room, my place, and then they search for it, I don't want them to find my phone. So every night and, and also, like they're different many nights where we have to turn off the light and stay in the dark for hours. Or if the soldiers are coming into the street. And sometimes even in the daytime when they walk past. And when you're in the neighborhood, we have to hide in the home 10 of the live and, and cover our windows with everything so that they don't know that there are people inside because you know, they can come into your home and take you to take you for pottery or they can arrest you or they can do anything they can breaks, they can destroy your properties for no reason. So we escape. And you can be arrested just to stay inside home and you can be shot to death or you can get injured staying inside home because they may randomly go into the neighborhood and they may randomly shoot at home. And so we can be targeted shoot at home with the real guns or sometimes with the slingshot for no reason they just come in, they just want to scare people. And even going from place to place. It's you know, like for a quarter plots, we have to leave the phone at home or we have to prepare, how to get out because we don't want to get caught on the way. And if we go to one place we go home quick because we don't want to be stopped on the way and anything could happen because we never know when they going to come. And my situation is that now like they also use the home cars to arrest people or to hit people. And so whenever I got off the car, I don't trust anyone even the normal car I don't trust and and then even the normal people if they just stay at me for no reason I thought is that is that person an informer and they are divine. Why is that person watching me? And are they trying to trace me or not? So fears I fear is everywhere in every part of our life, that you cannot explain it in in. In the media, it The fear is all you live in fear not and you feel helpless, because you cannot help. If your friends tell you something's happened to your home, or if your neighbor tell you cannot help. But you also cannot ask for help. It's really the helpless situation of knowing that you we can get killed at any time for no reason and we can get arrested at any time for no reason. So it's we cannot have the for me I also cannot put the money in the bank because we never know when the banks will be bankrupted or the region's going to rob our money and atn even from the ATM, you have to queue up really long queue and you own just For $200 worth of money, and if you keep cash in your hands, you're, you're you have to be afraid that what if they break in for gas registrations or whatever reason, and they can steal those money. So we have to hide money in our homes as well. So it's not safe the feeling, I cannot explain that feeling of a lack of safety and live in fear every single moment. It's, it's the most difficult thing, there is an unknown fear that we have. And that we have to live even though we will be happy at one moment, you never know. So. So I you know, people abroad, like my friends abroad, when she call me when she was 40. And she doesn't have life. I was telling, I was calm 14 her that, oh, you know, don't worry, you know, we have our own life, I was having my wine, I was having wine. And I was having some snack that night when I and I was about to watch movie when I talked to her. And I was comforting her to have her own life. But at the same time, it doesn't mean that we have, which mean I have my own life, I can have why and have some chill time. But it doesn't mean that I am safe, or I am in a better position. Because in any second so you can break into your door and they can take you from home or they can kill you or they can do anything to you. And there's no law. And everything they say is the law. So imagines how bad it would be for the people who are not as privileged as I am. Living in a tent, right? So
Host 56:44
you talk about being privileged in ways that others are not well, who are those people that don't have that sense of privilege that you have? Why are they more vulnerable,
Thiri 56:53
um, for less for me, like I'm, I'm from the soccer team, so the economists digest by now, because of my work and, and I can spend more money and I, I have my own business and everything so so I have, I'm better off in a way so I I'm in a safe houses. And but for the people, especially in the in the know, the our suburban areas, the factory workers, they live on the squatter site, the squatters is that they don't own the home, and they move it around. And they, they are living in the in the places where the in the middle of the dirty waters that he drained, they build their houses and the houses overlap in the crowded places, and their incomes are less than $1 a day or around $1 a day. So there are people like that and people who, whose home, they attend. And, and they don't have for us, they don't have full world walls, like they only they may only have three walls in their homes. And these people's vulnerable and, and these people who are you know, they're in the suburban area, they're factory workers, and they are, they're from the lower socioeconomic status and the soldiers tend to tend tend to crack down on these people because they don't have it small, like, if it's rich, or some powerful people dying, they have a lot of people to, say, share the condolences to. But these people, they're not people living in those areas, they're more because they don't have resources and, and soldier don't even treat them as human being. And they can kill them all. So
58:54
it's.
Thiri 58:57
So that's one group of people. And also people in the, in the, in this area where the military did the airstrikes. They're running from their homes, and they don't really have that kind of privilege that I have. But I'm telling the extreme difference. But there are other people who are less privileged than I am, who may not be even the local journalists, they may not have as much income as I have. So they don't have that kind of privilege that I have, even though they are also the journalists. But the people in the in the factory areas and people in lower socioeconomic status, they are more, they're more vulnerable. And they have been more targeted by the binary gene for this.
Host 59:41
I guess that wouldn't be so surprising because what we've seen of the military is that many of them are just bullies at heart. And bullies always like to go after the most vulnerable where they're going to be the least exposed and have the least pushback. And so that's just kind of fitting into that whole narrative. I do want to go back To what you said a bit ago, regarding your sense of fear, and I'm just so sorry to hear that I, you really do give quite a vivid description, which I think is important for our listeners to understand at a human level beyond just the stories of what it actually feels like what it is actually like to live there. And I want to go a little deeper into your description of how that fear takes hold you It sounds like it can come at any time of the day for any reason for something you see or don't see or imagine or is really there. But you mentioned how after a pm I think it was it comes on much more strongly. And I just want to know more about the nature that that fear takes like what? How does it manifest? Is it in the stomach? Is it? Does it cause nightmares? is one able one able to sleep? does one have headaches? Is it? Is it a fast heartbeat? So like physically and mentally, emotionally, etc? How is that fear actually manifesting for you?
Thiri 1:01:04
Yeah, it was, it was because we I said ATM because APN is a curfew time. So eight to 4pm is a curfew time. And so we bind 7pm we have to be rush home, because we don't want to get caught on the way or you. You never know what could happen on the street if you go home late. And and so all the stores and everything is close to buying them. So after 8pm people at 8pm people started banging pots and pen, they're still doing since the beginning. Amidst all the crackdown, that's the only resistant that people can show. And, and so these days, please still do that. So after the banging pots and pen, it was more like a silence. And then they usually arrest people around midnight. And so from midnight to 4am it was like, really long time and at the beginning that in February one in Nigeria happened, we couldn't even sleep for days. And I couldn't sleep for two weeks I probably I only slept for I only slept for four hours a night for two weeks, and at the beginning of the coup, not knowing when they're going to knock on your door. And, and by one we see the light in the daytime, it's some kind of hope, even though you know, things that things could still happen, but just to see the light itself, it's it's some kind of hope, and then some kind of security that you feel. So the feeling is that you know that my heart is a heavy heart. And also like there is a mixture of feeling of that fear, you're, you have that unknown fear. But at the same time you have that, that range that you we hate them and in our I hate them in our life, you know, for an hour from my bone marrow, and I hate them because I cannot do anything to them in, in seeing what other people are suffering there's nothing I can do to help others so that feeling it's just like some kind of big ball inside my chest between my chest and the neck. And and it was almost getting out of the mouth. And and also in terms of the nightmare like garden nightmares, but I got arrested or I got a kill I was running and hiding things every couple of nights and I would train about that. And because even though we sleep it's not after the mind is not actually sleeping in the morning, I will get with the tense muscle in the don't feel like fresh, something is a bit
1:04:14
dull,
Thiri 1:04:17
in a way that you don't want to. You don't have much energy to do anything because you're overwhelmed by the fear. And, and also like anger, you're you're angry for things that you cannot really do. Just because they have weapons and we have to hide it. It's It's It's a really difficult feeling. And that fear can it can cloud everything, every moment of our life because it's not normal and Don't have a normal life anymore. Even though we live try, we're trying to live like normal, there is no more normal life. We see the sunset, we want to take the photos and enjoying it. But we cannot because they can arrest you with a camera on the street. And whatever you do even like going to the one crazy thing is that one time I went, I slept over at my friend's place. And then in the morning, we we went out for the breakfast. And there's a place where the we have to pass the place where those security forces were. Were base. And then and then we I was worrying because I was sleeping over so I was worrying my normal clothes, which is not the home clothes and I was having my my litter bags, the to him back for just the in the orange color. orange color raincoat, like the rainbow is a waterproof bag. But it's mostly for the protester. So we will, we were afraid to my friends and I were afraid to take that bag because they can grab you on the way thinking that you can be a you can be a protester, so we hide that we hide that waterproof handbags into one of the pocket. We because we were walking, it's it's just like a few miles away from home. It's just too it's a two blocks away from that from the home to get breakfast. But we are also trying to make sure the way we wear doesn't look like we are about to protest. So we tried to wear like he wear like your home clothes. And whenever we go out we trying to dress in home clothing so that if something if they stop us we can say we are just find something here and there. And so so that morning, we went out for the breakfast and we were very careful about what we were and in and and if we were a little nice we we took off because we don't want them to mistaken us with the with the protester so we went to the we went to the breakfast place. And then we were scared that they're gonna come and arrest us because a few days before that a few days before that there were people who were having breakfast at a tea shop and they got they got taken from the shop for no reason. Like the security the soldier came into the the tea shop and arrested the wait, we wait, the rest of the servers and people who are eating, they only let go of the older really old people but everyone got to jail for like a week or something. So we were scared that could happen to us. And so even having the breakfast we will like looking back because we never know when they're gonna come. And we have to hide our phone, I hide my phone everywhere I go, and I have different phones. And it just it just extra work. And, yeah, that that's the situation, you know, even going out for breakfast, you have to be careful what kinds of clothes that you wear, and what color of the clothes you wear. And what what is the things that you carry, you don't feel safe at all. That's the daily life that we are having. And we cannot sit at a place for a long time because you never know they will come with the car. And they can take you all and if you are walking and they can hit you with a car like on the other day, we saw the video that they hit a bicycle with a car with their military vehicle and they arrested that person. He was just bicycling on the on the road on the public road. It's It's crazy. It's super crazy to see all this thing is more than is beyond words to express what it's like to live into this region. They're just stupid and cruel and nasty.
Host 1:09:11
Right? So when you talk about not being able to sleep for a couple of weeks, or about just the levels of fear and anger that you're going through faced with this kind of reality. You've now been living in this reality for at the time we're recording this at least for you know, about 10 weeks or so. And so have you developed any strategies for dealing with these really difficult emotions probably to the this level of intensity and extent you've never experienced before in your life, but are now a daily occurrence throughout the day when these were first coming and they were overwhelming. But as they've continued Is there any strategies you've been able to develop mentally, physically, emotionally any other way spiritually, even that has helped you to too, to deal with some of these difficulties. Better I
Thiri 1:10:07
got my thick wall back as a human rights dog researcher, in my work in my five years experience, I would go to the complex setting. And I listen to be firsthand accounts of the people who, whose family got killed or harmed by the military. Um, so I'm quite used to this kind of brutality, so that those day I got, I developed the, the thick wall of thick emotional wall. So I see things as a profession, and I listened, but I don't feel it anymore. So I got it. But then that wall was broken when I study abroad because I was away from home and I don't need to associate with this. So the the wall was, when the wall was broken, it was really horrible for me to go through the emotional processing. But now I got that wall back, especially after the after the 14 now, yeah, on the 14th of March, that's one, lots of people got killed. And since then I got that, that thick wall back. So I'm quite numb to the situation, even though I live in fear. But I'm quite numb to general situation, sometimes I don't even feel it anymore. I was like, okay, let it go. Just, if they razz me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go. And if they kill me, I'm gonna get killed. That's it, I will fight until my last breath. But I'm not going to instead of living under them, I will rather time and not not feeling the fear anymore. I don't, I don't, I don't like the feeling of getting fear. I hate fear. And I don't want it. So instead of living like this, I will rather you know, I will rather let it go. And as far as I can protect the information that I carry. And as far as I can protect the safety of the people who are working with me, or who have shared the information with me, and are my friends, my family, I don't really care about myself, I don't. It's such as I live in the hill. Now, if you don't feel free, and every morning, when you wake up, you wish that this is just a dream. And everything should be over, that's what I wish for. And because I'm losing my friend, many of my friends are already gone, they go into the jungle to get the to join the armed forces, and many of my friends got arrested. And then people got killed, but I don't know when I will be the next or my loved one or people who I know who I care will be the next you never know. And, and so I'm believe I believe that, you know, the strategy that I would develop is that I believe that we will win because we deserve better. And we definitely will win. But what I'm not sure is who will survive and how many of us will survive to witness the victory I may not be there to see the victory and or even if I see there many of many of my friends might not so so that's so that's a huge future waiting ahead of us I'm just continue with one hope that we will win. But it also is scary that how how things are gonna info in the future. And I don't know who will survive to witness the victory.
Host 1:14:07
Yeah, thank you for sharing that, that those are, those are really heavy words. And I'm emotional hearing that as well. With how many friends I have there and knowing you and knowing the terror that people are under and that just really brings home, how you know, what people are going through and what what they're striving for. And, you know, when those of us are here, hearing those words. You know, it's hard to know how to respond. It's, um, it's just the feeling of such helplessness and an anger and sorrow. And you know, it's just I don't know what to say except it's hard to know how to respond and that you have a lot of people outside of your country right now that are Living in a place of safety and freedom, but that are using all of their time and resources to be able to help you in any way that we can. Yeah,
Thiri 1:15:14
I really appreciate that. And I had a chance to leave the country Actually, I got, I got visa, I got the, I got the US visa, and also I got the time visa, but I, I decided to do stay. Because I cannot carry that survival, guilt, and plus them, you know, I want to be together, I may not be able to help any, I decided to leave many times I thought about leaving, but I feel like, you know, I talked to my friend and my, my, me being here may not be helpful at all, but me being here Is it some kind of hope and solidarity. And so people don't leave with the reasons right? Because leaving, it's it was brown signal, the my friends and my comrades that, oh, she's, she's doubting about our victory, is that why she left, and I don't want to give that wrong signal into them. That's why I continue staying as long as I can. I'm being a journalist and it, it's, we I am also working with the activist and I come in I myself coming from the activism background and I'm working with this helping with the strike comedy I'm has a I have a really high risk, but still, like, we continue staying people here other people also they're people who got a chance to leave the country. But they decided to stay. I'm not saying those people, that those people who are leaving, I'm not saying anything bad about them, because I think anyone should survive that, you know, surviving itself is a victory for me by now. Because even if they cannot kill us all, so. So if any one of us survive, whether inside the country or outside, this is our victory. So I count the victory with the survival. So we survive, and, and even if one person left, that's our victory, because that person would continue the fight. And, and so like, you know, there are people who are who who are doing in any possible way they can too, to help those situation improve. I really appreciate everyone and I really value the effort of each and everyone whether they're inside or outside the country or wherever they are. And we are all in this together I know that we are fighting in an impossible way we are in our fate is in our hands and we know that we have to we really appreciate the support from the International people people are there everywhere but we understand that the fight is our fight in the fate is in our hands given that the international structures and the human structures with the bureaucratic procedure it won't it very little help that they can give other than the condemnations or put in sanction. And and yeah say as somebody who understand about how the human rights structure works global human rights structure works I don't have much hope on then that they're gonna bring some changes to us you know, the world has always not the people I mean the UN and the governmental structure has always failed in crisis in the mass atrocities they only say the only thing ever again. But they do not enter any they didn't do any potential measure to stop them. So they fail every mass atrocities they failed for hinges and they also failed for the crisis and everything so I don't have much hope on them almost a chain that is a structural issues there. And so I'm I really appreciate the effort everyone put in making the situation better but but yeah, we have to rely on that result in the feed is in our hands.
Host 1:19:57
And so for the international audience who is listening to this and who wants to help as they can? What words would you have for them? How can they help in a way that would be needed
1:20:09
at the moment?
Thiri 1:20:12
At least for me, it's a hope in solidarity. That means knowing that people don't forget us, this is what happened. We did lots of lots of local people, whenever the international media come, like one during the CNN trip, you will, you may see, it's, it's all about hope. So hope is the only one that has driven us. And so rather than the practical Well, the I don't know, what practical help that the international community can do without changing their structure. So, um, and so yeah, like, sharing information about us. And, and like, standing with us solidarity and hope would be the only thing that will be there that day, or the things that will be helpful for us, because that will help us continue. Don't you know,
1:21:17
don't treat our
Thiri 1:21:20
suffering our news as some kind of Reno breakfast table reading, just just continue sharing, too, because, at least that we can do. And I want our situation to be hard by buying people I don't want this to die. No, like, I mean, and gone after another big incidents happen. We don't want it to faded away. We don't want our suffering to be faded away. Because we are. We are actual human being. And, yeah, we need that kind of support. Yeah, like solidarity with us and continuing supporting us.
Host 1:22:17
I'm glad you mentioned the visit by CNN. This was Clarissa Ward, who came because that was a question I wanted to get it you with. There's some different views about her visit. And her reporting. There are definitely some people who are quite delighted a lot of Burmese who were quite delighted that you had such a major network that was coming there to report to many more people and try to bring access to the Western world as to what was happening. There were also some comments made by different cnn reporters and Clarissa Ward herself that many in country and out of country as well, like myself, were pretty dismayed that in terms of referencing that the journalism that they were doing was somehow groundbreaking in a way that was a bit offensive and dismissive. For all of the great local journalism that has been going on for so long. And even Clarissa Ward herself made a somewhat controversial statement that the I don't have an in front of me. So I'm paraphrasing, but something to the extent that the Burmese people were loving and appreciating everything she had been doing on their behalf, but that white Western mills were critical of her, which itself was quite offensive to how many young Burmese and female journalists there were that had been critical from the start. And a number of tweets came in response to that joking that they were really white males in America and disguise after all this time. But in any case, I'm curious what your take on that visit is on Clarissa ward of CNN coming, the coverage that she did the commentary kind of around before and after what that visit was, how do you feel about that whole interaction?
Thiri 1:24:08
Um, well, I'm one of the person who was critical of her visit and the way they use the language like, you know, I'm, you know, she is the very first one, international journalists who is SSN. And I'm critical of their lack of transparency on this trip, like, you know, how they got invited and how they got the SS. It was a bright carpet setting, it's more about the process, how the tauschii carry out the interview, like, you know, talking to the people on the street, who who can be taken after all, but anyway, but this is I this is what we thought and this is what a critic I'm in general critical of the of this kind of parachute journalism. But in the meantime, when I look at the people, lots of Burmese people liked her visit, because If I said it's, her visit won't change anything. And, and so like it's so it I see is is a it's a hierarchy of knowledge and hierarchy of criticisms. In the end, it doesn't matter what I think it's matter what the, what the people feel, you know, her reporting, she should have been more I would say he has she should have been more reflected on her journey like even though the reporting itself is problematic I think knowing seeing that people have people having hope, whether it is false or or real, it will make them survive. So in essence, e&m visit visit is important. And make the movement make people you know, continue the fight in and I want them to be more, more pre caught up more cautious with the situation in next time when they go to any conflict sector, rather than Don't. Don't treat them as your source or your characters or some kind of materials in your report that treat people as human being because they have put so much hope on you. And then you should take more, you need to take responsibility I didn't as responsibility of the journalists, and they the way she sounds is not quite respectful to the local journalists who risked your life and reporting like knowing that, Oh, I'm the only one you know, who got it, it's quite arrogant tone. But she should be more careful like that in the future. Anything I did not know that. But like, you know, in my experience, when I work with one of the really mean one big agency and we want I took them to the Rangers camp. And then like they will, it was a video report and he was so some symbol that it's in the in the, in the microphone and the in the camera and I'm like, Okay, this is happening, and then that, you know, the way that the TV journalist would say but then and she doesn't let the you know, she doesn't like the brinjals kit coming to her because one of them was coughing. So she was like, Oh, please You know, can you move them and then Secretary so I was like I have seen that kind of journalists so I don't want any journalists to be like that because if they go to any places people see you as a hope it doesn't matter what we what we think like you know for for us we are some kind of privilege and we have at least having internet at home is a privilege now and so we can discuss that that kind of thing of what should be and what it shouldn't be before the local people it doesn't matter it's only the hope that the if the any outsider con it's a hope that they carry and they want to continue having that hope and so for the outside people reporter anybody from the UN or anywhere and any places they should be more careful they should be they should take more responsibility in respecting the local people journalists in other whites center the white center journalism we are we are criticizing but at the same time Yeah, we are criticizing them for not respecting the the local people criticizing them because they don't respect the you know the local people they just like the way they treat their local people it's more like lesser human being and these people the people may have that you know savior mentality that anything it is a problems for us but for the people for now. I think it's the hope that they can carry and they will do anything they can to get that hope so for me personally, I don't like her trip and her information doesn't have much information and she is doing a stunt that though I am here in Jamar, etc in light, you know like the treating the etickets in anything she grew up in low profile and which I would do it if I were hurt.
Host 1:29:22
Yeah, that's interesting and changing gears a little bit I understand that you're also active in some of the strikes that are going on Can you share a bit more about what you're doing there?
Thiri 1:29:33
Um, I wasn't go out to myself because I am not more like Drudge Report in doing the logistical support to the to the strike comedies or if they need the safe houses or if they need money, and I or other are more like a one stop service for them. So they can call me and they can ask me and so I can I make it happen being a fixer. I have lots of connections and I know how to make things done. So, so when they call me, and if they don't know where to find, which they call me and I, I help them with the, with the, with the things that they need like the if they need the meeting space, I arranged the meeting space for them, or, or yeah other other other things like many other things that are if they need the supply, or if they need money and I tried to make it happen.
Host 1:30:31
Right, so that sounds like get that itself can be quite a hectic high stakes, intense situation to have to have all these requests coming that sometimes I imagine could literally be a matter of life and life and death and then having to deliver on whatever request is coming in at any minute and then the next minute, something else that needs to be delivered. So that seems like it can be quite a bit to handle Yeah,
Thiri 1:30:55
you have to respond quick because they should not stay at one place for a long time. And when they asked for it, it's more likely, it's more like you have you do the immediate response to them. And and also like sometimes they need money for internal money, because there is a problem with the money flow inside the country, they cannot wait for the money from the donation. So I have to use my own money and to pay at friends before the money comes. So that things also involve in my in my work or I take money from someone else and trying to switch the make the money flow internally. So that kind of process involved or somebody needs a printer. So like a 3d printer. So they need to bring it from the one area to another and and arrange that kind of thing. You know, like bringing how to get the because one one time I brought the printer from the from fine Daya, which is more like a battle zone. It was two days after the sinaia crackdown, and there was no internet access or anything. So we need to get the a three point group wanted the eight three printer. So I have to do I have to find a 3d printer in town. And so I got it. And that is a 3d printer is coming from the area where it was brutally cracked down two days before so all the SS are close. So I have to arrange that bringing the printer to the border of Minaya is still in Yangon, it's more like a suburban area, but the people there may not be able to come all the way to downtown area. So we have to make like arrangement of like border area suburban in the downtown area, we drop the printer off one place, and then arrange to carry that printer to one area in downtown. So that kind of arrangement that I would do.
Host 1:33:01
Right, right. And it sounds like you are fitting into a role based on who you then and what you've done for years past. And this is what we're seeing of everyone. Now people that are coming from whatever their profession or their skill sets or their connections are that that is how they're fitting into the best role that they can play here because obviously not everyone is meant to be on the front lines, different people can be play productive roles in different places depending on who they are. And you mentioned about funds and the difficulty of being able to get funds in and urgently give them to different people and activities that need them at that moment. And we should also mention that we that our platform is able to accept donations from anywhere outside of the country. And we are able to, to get it inside. And so for those that are listening to theory speak, and that would especially like to support her and the work that she's doing and the people that she's supporting. We do encourage you to listen to the end of our interview when will be the end of this episode when we'll be sharing a bit about how those donations can be given and make sure to earmark where you want it to go. And so people listening can do more than just listen, they can actually support and play a role in this difficult time. I do want to ask a question about safe houses because this is something that I think everyone has seen in movies or heard about and wartime or such but what a safe house actually is what makes it safe, what it looks like how you determine it and set it up. I think these are things that very few people myself definitely has no real experience in. So can you share a bit about what a safe house actually is and how you go about setting up or determining a safe house exists Even being available for people.
Thiri 1:35:02
Yeah, so like, living under the dictatorship, no places safe, even one square feet of land, it's not safe. So it's no actual is technically the safe house but not may not be safe, you can be arrested in any time. But anyway, so we have two kinds of safe houses. So one is the, it's more I hop in place, when you you, you may register your home address somewhere and then you need to leave, you need to abandon that place for your safety reason. But before you but you still wants to go out and involve in the activities, because you need to. And for that there are places like hop in places they can go and stay. And then it's want to get temporary safe house, so they can go and stay and work there. And they and until to the to the end, they can still go in and out like maybe. Yeah, I heard I heard the knocking. So you can still go in and out and work in there. And it's more like a temporary place. That's one kinds of safe house. And the other safe house that we say is that is when you need to hide your identity at all. So it may not it will not have any internet or anything. But it will have somebody who will help you with the shoppings and etc. to that level, it's that you have to hide completely, you don't meet with anyone and you don't talk to anyone and you, you talk to very few people and you don't you have a really you you don't go out at all at this stage. So for most for now, most of the safe safe houses for the activists are the the hot in places, they will go there temporarily until they find another safe place or until until they can operate there their work, they will go to that hobby in places. And then we have to make sure it's there, we have to make their many available ones one safehouses A suppose we cannot use it again, we have to find the another one. And and so that's the tricky part. Because in Myanmar, when we when we rent the house, we have to pay, we have to make a contract for at least six months or a year. So we need to make sure we have enough money to pay for the safe houses sometimes people give give out their homes and they they agree to take the people in and stay with them. Or sometimes they sometime people donate their homes, empty homes to us as a safe house like my mom did. And and sometimes we have to most of the time we rent the place. And but we cannot make it empty because we have to before if we just ran into the people gonna know that they these people are hiding. So we have to make sure there's somebody there and operated as a normal home so that people can go in. So there are lots of setting needed to for the safe houses, but we have a shortage of safe houses because we need the safe houses for the journalists and safe houses for the activists and also safe houses for the CRP, ah, the the people working with the CRP, h the people who are helping the government newly the parallel government, you know, the electric government, and so debates on different types, we have to make sure things are okay, so some some of the safe houses are just for the journalists. So we even if we have safe houses, we cannot give it to the journalists. Because this is give it to the activists because this is we are saving it up for the journalists and and yeah. And for activists, they wouldn't need it right away. And so we have to create the hub in places for a couple of nights for them to stay. And then we find another place for them. So nothing is really saved. But it's more like unregister place I you know, but there's a chance you can be targeted because the neighbor may know you are the you are you are the new comers in the neighborhood. And if there's any infiltrators in the neighborhood, we call them delaire which is a word to describe the informer to the authority. So they will check who are new to the to the neighborhood and then they can inform to the security forces and and and the people in hiding can be arrested. So So yeah, there's lots of different things involved and we need money and also these day we have to register for the house registration. The idea is to target the the These people who are in hiding, but also it is also targeting young people. If they know if that house has a young person, they would go after that house. So being young in Myanmar at the moment, it's a risk is just because you're young No, no reason just because you're, you're under 40 view between you, if you're, if you're between 16 and 14, there is a chance that you can be arrested for no reason, just because you are young.
Host 1:40:33
Right? Yeah, that's terrible. And that's so much pressure that everyone has to be on under those circumstances. I also want to ask a little bit about your background in human rights, because I understand that you've also done considerable work with human rights organizations in Myanmar, prior to the coup, which I imagine given your research and your practice there, and your probably your deeper study and understanding of the tamata that probably comes into play now. So what have you what what is your background in human rights? What have you done? And how is that informing what you're doing in the present moment.
Thiri 1:41:10
So I, I used to work with Human Rights Watch as a consultant for the Obama researcher. So as part of my work, I want you to convert sones and documenting the human rights abuses. So I'm, I'm, I am experienced in that, you know, document in the How do you document the human rights in the conflict setting. So, so like, how to collect the how to get the testimonies and how to make sure the information are solid and verified and, and, and how to collect the the, the information that would be fit for the, for the human rights investigation, so that, that that's what I have learned from the Human Rights Watch. And I also work with the other human rights organizations, as a fixer or the researcher, I work with the, you know, Holocaust Memorial museums and, and in in, yeah, those kinds of work. And I also work on the advocacy process project with the, with the with the mostly with the Human Rights Watch, but also with the other organization. So, so I have that, mostly, I have the feel experience of how do documents, human rights abuses, and, yeah, so that's more like my expertise. And I So with that, I learned the patterns of violence that the military commit. And so the nature of them and what they usually do in the complex setting, so what I see in the in the city, it's not something new, because this is like, that's what I have been hearing over the years any in, in in the areas where I work. But I have to, but the difference is that before I only hurt, and I did not, I very few cases, I will see the video record or the photos records or the the or the the witness witness and myself, I will be I will listen to the first hand account of people and document it. But But this time is difference because I can see the food ages myself and I can I witnesses myself, and then photos and everything available. So this is the level, this is more like I actually see it with my with my eyes this time. So the knowledge and the documentation helped me with the systematic documenting of the abuses, I won some time. The problem with the Human Rights documentation, the challenge, I would say the challenge with the Human Rights documentation is that in some, in many cases, people suffer a lot. So they wants to get the attention. And they like to exaggerate the data, or they like to fabricate the data just to get more attention. So we have to be as a human rights researcher, you have to be very careful with the information that you receive. And sometimes people will say that, oh, they are shooting with the real guns or they are open fires and etc. So some questions involved. Did you see it or did you hear it? Or did you hear somebody else told you a sector though that kind of clarification. So sometimes people don't like it because it's give them impression that we don't trust their information. But for us, and sometimes people don't like to continue talking because they feel like why are you asking this kind of deep questions, but for us, it's very important because this is this the accuracy and the and the detail. It's very important for us so that we can file the documentation and if they go to the human rights court, human rights law, are they are the laws are internal National humanitarian law is the law. So, it has a legal nature and you have to be specified and it has to be it has to be, you know, fit into the criteria. Otherwise, even though this is a horrible crime, you cannot take it accountable with the specific crime. So, so that knowledge and skill set that I have learned from Human Rights Watch, and also I did my Master's in human rights, um, helped me documents, the abuses that I can see myself and also I can help other people who are documenting the, the human rights abuses, I can help them with sharing knowledge on how to collect the information to be as valid as they can. So, so those are things that is helpful. Because sometimes, for example, like when we say in general where people say, Oh, this is a war crime because they are going into the the hospital or they're, they're shooting this and that, but to fit into the category of the warfighter, you have to be a conflict setting. And sometimes people will say, now my people saying the case in Pico is a genocide, because lots of people dying, but that's not even true, because genocide is, is very specific. And also, to count it as a crime, we have to also know, like, whether it just shooting at the people or like shooting, shooting at somebody else, and it's under collateral damage. So in our report, we have to be very careful about the incident. So human rights documentation is very has to be very systematic, and you have to be it needs verification with lots of people. And if we cannot, and make the conclusion of the of the research, like, Okay, this is what people said, but they that people said, in our reporting, we will say like people said, the you know, the this place was the the security forces use a grenade, but there was no evidence that we found that the we don't see the shell, or that we don't, nobody actually saw it happen. So that kind of remark that we have to give, it doesn't mean that the information is wrong. But we want to be transparent, and we want to be as accurate as we can. So that's, that's the knowledge and the skill set that I can apply in this documentation. So I can tell it to the share that knowledge to the other people because I cannot document everything. So I can I can ask them, I can tell them, and also like address and the torture cases. It's also specific cases and we have to ask specific questions to get the detail as much as possible, their timeline and everything. So
Host 1:47:53
right, and are you engaged in that work now? Are you reporting and documenting on these kind of human rights abuses? In in this sense?
Thiri 1:48:06
Yes, I do. I'm occasionally working with the Human Rights Watch. And the also working on the other court court cases are the people who who I who hire me as a freelance and the freelance freelance person so I am I was hired by the other people for that kind of testimony worth of data collection. That's what I do I also volunteer myself with one group and collecting the the death toll that's also what I'm doing. So some of them some of them are the paid work and some of them are the the volunteers work that I do
Host 1:48:52
that's a lot of things to hold that can be quite heavy to have to go over that information on those details. Day by day is you also want a personal level are also not safe.
Thiri 1:49:03
Yeah, no, it's um yeah, it's it's really that's why I don't want to I am I'm carrying it lots of information. So I that's why I got that fear. Or I'm going to be arrested even if I got arrested, I don't mind but the information that I carry, those are sensitive, so I just don't want to, you know, get caught with my phone. So even if I got caught, I want to caught red handed and then they will release me. So I must other thing that I do is i'm also sending information to do double item m, but everyone can do it. But for me is that I know which one would be they like it. And also, I'm also like engaging with the soldier who are fleeing the military. So that information that I help I help them connect with the human rights, organize If they wants to justifies or if they want to, if they need some help or if they want to talk to the media. So
Host 1:50:11
right and there's another thing that you do according to my understanding as well, you are involved in a narrative analysis on social media. Can you tell us a little more what that is?
Thiri 1:50:22
Well, I started for the Rangers crisis I won. Internationally, they see as as a as a human rights and the humanitarians crisis. But in the country, that time it wasn't like that. It was they were very there was a huge army, there was a huge negative sentiment towards the Rangers, and in thinking them as the enemy and very few people were sympathized for Ranger. So I am trying so internationally like that, that's a problem with the international media sometimes that the way they frame is very much like black and white, okay, this person is good. The victims always and this person is the perpetrator always. But the actual things are more complicated than this, because because at the beginning when they started, even though it was a state sponsored violence and build community in 2012, both communities suffer both kinds and the Rohingya suffer. But it turned out only one group got more attention, which is understandable because the level of the level and the intensity level in the in the violence against the Rohingya and the suffering of Rohingya is, it's nothing compared to any other ethnics in the country. So that's why international community and in the media would pay more attention to the Rohingya. But the other problem with this is that they started making the Rakhi as the feelings and the bad people and, and now over time that cause the grievances amongst the people. So at the beginning, both both of them one set attention, and both of them once their suffering to be heard, but it over time, the story became like oh, Rakhine people are bad. And then Rohingya people are the victims. So even though they both are the victims of the system that is oppressed to both of them, but the levels are just double, not the same. And there's a computation of the victimhood between them and that cost, but that the media, Meteor, you know, like the media representation is not it's not quite, it's doesn't, doesn't touch upon the nuances and also the complexities of the issues and over time, that could more that makes more divisions between the Rangers and the Rakhine community, and then that put more burden on the Rangers community. So one of the So, so going the, for the, for the that time. So that's, that's why I decided to do make narrative because internationally, yeah, oh, my God, this is horrible. And how could people have a lack of sympathy or, but internally, they have been brainwashed. And the idea is different the way they see the crisis is different. And some of them it doesn't really, it's I, it's not just the, you know, it's not just the Rohingya issue itself, that lots of pro the Ansan switchy play in shaping that narrative, or making people believe that Rangers are the outsiders and they don't belong, and they're trying to take the land and the role of the religious leaders trying to the monks and trying to devise some rules and also like the way of the of the Islamophobic narrative, which has existed in Myanmar since after nine level, so that all fed into the brainwashed mechanisms of the people and people are being brainwashed not to, you know, believe in the Rohingya suffering. So that's what I study on the Rohingya crisis. There is a parallel narrative, the International narrative, and the and the and the local narrative. So that's how I started looking at the social. Most of the information that discussion are happening on the social media and Facebook became everything in Myanmar. So I was an ally, analyzing the narrative on the social media and how people understand to understand how people see the Rohingya crisis. And how are they so negative against the Rohingya and how can they not sympathize a groups of people who, whose life are at a dire situation? So that's what I analyze. And so it's not that they don't. So that that's, that's my studies. That's what I did with the narrative. So now, like the narrative is also changing my illness. Social media you may see like people are stopped, people started apologizing the the Rohingya people, so internationally, they see Burmese people as racist people. But I argue this is a different narrative that you know, happening around us shapes that people minds and the behavior. And so you can see now like people have been changing the shift that the idea, which is my they have never seen before. So now they saw it, and they experienced it, and they can relate in a way how Rangers suffer. So, so yeah, that's why I'm, I'm always rather than judging. And rather than building that conclusion, I like to understand how people understand things. So that's how I studied the narrative on the social media and mainly on how the general public see the ranges crisis.
Host 1:56:00
Yeah, that's fascinating. And I think that is certainly an area that a lot of people are curious about how they saw the issue and how there was, there was a certain kind of coldness, and, as you say, some kind of inhumane detachment from seeing these as fellow people with suffering. And so to be able to go in and dig into, how are these views actually being formed? And how are they being expressed? And how has that been changing that's especially in an age of social media with the way that that carries that that's, that's just an incredibly important topic. I'm just kind of floored by how much you're doing, how much you're holding, how much you're involved in how far your knowledge and your activities extend. And, and knowing how much you do and taking the time to talk to all of us today. And what has become quite a long interview, it just really appreciate that you would take the time to share with this foreign audience and to just go over some brief overviews of the many things that you're involved in to help to educate us and bring this understanding. And before we close, is there anything that I didn't hit upon with any of my questions that you would like to take this time in this platform, to be able to speak to what is probably primarily a foreign audience about what has been happening? What is happening now that we didn't hit upon in this interview?
Thiri 1:57:25
Well, I want you to the last thing was that I want to share the nature of the Burmese people like they, it just been their nature is that they in the crisis, and if they have a common enemy, they're quite united, and they stood up against like, in injustice. So. So for them at some point about the Rangers, the way they perceive the Rangers issue is pretty ugly, and it's really shameful. And they did that, but it's because they were in a How do you say, like, you know, they, they did, because they have been brainwashed by we have a closed information the whole time. And then one the country's open up, we jam the whole it, ah, we jump to the social media age. So already we are being we come from the dock. And then when we got the light, it was really bright light. And it's, it's really hit our eyes and which is more like that's the development of the social media. And that was a boom, and now we are getting towards the close society. And, and, and so like, we need one, whenever you do the analysis or a night, trying to understand about Myanmar, it's, it's they are complicated people and plus, they tend to, they tend to respond. They're really good at crisis responder is in a normal situation, they may not be good, but like in a crisis situation, they, they they could do their best. And like this, you know, like collective one, they have the common enemy. It they had, they're quite united so so like this is the reason why they have been so negative towards the certain issue is that they're being divided in rules and they're being brainwashed for many years. And they have a lack of information and, and they do not very few did not see the wall, they do not eat they they they couldn't see lots of lots of places. So that's why they are there. So in. So it's always good to engage with the local people rather than making a judgment anywhere not only in your mind rather than for the people who are privileged in the Western world, rather than making a judgment on trying one trying to understand one society, trying to I would encourage the people to understand that What is going on and to understand the nature and the culture of the people, so that that can bring the best engagement of it. But in terms of the coop, please help us in sharing our voices, and support us and the and, and talk to if you have friends who are in Yammer, call them and talk to them send postcards or anything they need that kind of hopes. And that, that hope will continue to the end. Because life is horrible, but hope is the only thing that they can, you know, that will guide them walk out of the of this darkness. And I believe everything has come to an end, and we're gonna win. And but we just don't know when and we just don't know how, or who will survive to see the victory. But we will definitely win. So support us.
Host 2:00:53
Thank you. Yeah, those are wise and powerful words. And you definitely have my support the support of many listeners that are coming on, as well. And just thank you so much, and send you the best wishes your English has certainly improved since we last spoke and much more. So that's been wonderful to check in. And we'll continue continue to do so as this goes on. And thank you so much for just taking the time to be able to share all that you're doing and your perspective and inform us about what's going on there. And please be safe. Welcome. Thank
Thiri 2:01:31
you for having me here and give me a platform to share my voice.
Host 2:01:47
After today's discussion, it should be clear to everyone just how dire the situation is in the market. We are doing our best to shine a light on the ongoing crisis. And we thank you for taking the time to listen. If you found today's talk about you, please consider passing it along to friends in your network. And because our nonprofit is now in a position to transfer funds directly to the protest movement, please also consider letting others know that there was now a way to give that support to the most vulnerable and to those who are specially impacted by this organized state terror if you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. every cent goes immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. Donations go to support such causes as the civil disobedience movement CVM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. Or if you prefer, you can earmark your donation to go directly to the guests you just heard on today's show. In order to facilitate this donation work, we have registered a new nonprofit called better Burma for this express purpose. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is now directed to this fund. Alternatively, you can visit our new better Burma website, which is better Burma one word.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me slash better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and cash app. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to those respective accounts for email us at info at better burma.org. In all cases, that's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r bu r Ma. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration.
2:04:05
What am I gonna do yada yada
2:04:12
yada, yada yada, yada yada yada yada, yada yada yada.
Host 2:04:31
You've been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we'd appreciate it very much. If you could rate review and or share this podcast. Every little bit of feedback helps. You can also subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you get your podcasts to make sure you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes. If you can't find our feed on your podcast player, please just let us know and we'll ensure it can be offered there in the future. Also, maybe sure to check out our website for a list of our complete episodes, including additional texts, videos and other information available at Insight myanmar.org. And I also invite you to take a look at our new nonprofit organization at better burma.org. There was certainly a lot to talk about in this episode, and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a POST request specific questions and join in on discussions currently going on. On the Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. You're also most welcome to follow our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter accounts by the same name. If you're not on social media, feel free to message us directly at info at Insight myanmar.org for if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that form here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible. Currently, our team consists of two sound engineers, Mike pink and Martin combs. There's of course Zack Kessler, content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey helps with editing and a special Mongolian volunteer who was asked to remain anonymous does our social media templates. In light of the ongoing crisis in Myanmar, a number of volunteers have stepped in to lend a hand as well. And so we'd like to take this time to appreciate their effort and our time of need. And we're always on the lookout for more volunteers during this critical time. So if you'd like to contribute, definitely let us know. We'd also like to thank everyone who has assisted us in arranging for the guests we've interviewed so far. And of course, we send a big thank you to the guests themselves, for agreeing to come on and share such personal powerful stories. Finally, we're immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We want to remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and don't necessarily reflect the hosts or other podcast contributors. Please also note that we are mainly a volunteer team, we do not have the capacity to fact check our guest interviews. By virtue of being invited on our show. There's a trust that they will be truthful and not misrepresent themselves or others. If you have any concerns about the statements made on this or other shows, please contact us this recording is the exclusive right of Insight Myanmar podcast and may not be used without the expressed written permission of the podcast owner, which includes video, audio written transcripts or excerpts of any episodes. Also not meant to be used for commercial purposes. On the other hand, we're very open to collaboration. So if you have a particular idea in mind for sharing any of our podcasts or podcast related information, please feel free to contact us with your proposal. If you would like to support our mission, we welcome your contribution. During this time of crisis. All donations now go towards supporting the protest movement in Myanmar to our new nonprofit better Burma. You may give by searching better Burma on paypal Venmo cash app, GoFundMe and patreon as well as via credit card at better burma.org slash donation. You can also give right on our Insight Myanmar website is all donations given there are directed towards the same fund. And with that, we're off to work on the next show. So see you next episode. Joe Don't wait
2:11:05
ready everybody
2:11:09
Bye for you alive
2:11:17
bye bye bye
2:11:30
bye bye