Transcript: Episode #73: How to Stop an Innovative Start-Up
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Hla Hla Win and Yan Min Aung, which appeared on October 8, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:30
While this podcast platform typically explores the spiritual biographies of practitioners in the Emaar. Along with delving into the different meditation traditions there, we have somewhat shifted our focus to respond to this current crisis. While we will definitely continue to interview guests who can share Buddhist perspectives, and impart wisdom at this time of need, we will be expanding our work and talk with a wider range of speakers who can add to the breadth and depth of our coverage, so that listeners can better understand the nature of the current crisis. And if there are additional topics or guests that you would like to suggest, please do so by writing us at info at Insight myanmar.org. With that, let's get on to our show.
May 01:15
letter to a political prisoner su pseudonym write the letter to a friend who has been arrested and imprisoned. The dates and locations except for Chiquita and in Spain have been modified for security reasons. May 2 2021. At 4pm is the last time I spoke to you. The following day, while I was having my first coffee of the day, I received a message from a friend in Yangon asking me if I knew if I knew what the fact that you had been arrested by the military at 2am in the apartment in which you had taken refuge in recent days. And since then, no one knows where you have been taken to know what happened to you. In another life, I wish I had known on the second of may what would happen that night. I hesitated to offer to speak directly to you since you seem to have a good internet connection for once. I really wanted to swap our instant messaging habits for an actual face to face moment with you. I'm not sure why I didn't offer it to you. It might be because you told me that you now have a good connection available, that you no longer need to connect from the internet cafes and the city center to send news and that we therefore have time. Yes, we had, in short, a life ahead of us to talk to each other until that life was stolen from us overnight. Since February 1. The day of the coup you have resumed your pace of political activism that you had decided to put away to invest time in a green space in the peripheral yongle you had even started growing organic vegetables that you sold nearby. I like to think that you had reconnected with nature. And I suspect that it did you good. seeing pictures of you in a hammock by a small river appearing on my Facebook wall from time to time was soothing. I also noticed that you reconnected with your old team in your new environment as the fade had started knocking on your door at the end of January. A few days later the blow came and it was together with them that you decided to continue the path of resistance. resuming the rhythm of underground activities. Our messages, photos of fresh tomatoes and cucumbers disappeared. The rhythm of our exchanges intensified. We were in touch every time you had access to the internet. We are an encounter out of time and space. One that can be qualified as unexpected. were two worlds very different create a symbiosis. Electric at times explosive. About a bubble full of compassion. With the use of the cool I saw myself promoted the new functions. I became your database, your hard drive, your search browser and your body. I knew if you were okay and when you were not. I followed the events in Myanmar by our exchanges. I walked with you in the streets of Yangon alongside 1000s of peaceful demonstrators in February. And I walked a few months later in the same streets in a fire and blood. I ran with you under fire from the soldiers. I felt the loneliness of those apartments where you lived alone where you were hiding I experienced the sadness that sometimes assailed you when you saw the fate of some of your comrades. I feared the worst that night in April in your hideout. In North Oklahoma, there was gunfire, and soldiers right in front of your hiding place. It was all through you ago, as in reality. I wasn't there. You were in this mythology alongside 1000s of others, face to face with faith, and a standoff with the inhumanity and injustice of the janitor. You made your courage and that of 1000s of others in the Mr. The light intending to burst the darkness. But darkness has this indescribable way of sticking to the surface, far from impossible. It requires persistence to be removed. And that perseverance, you're all proving to have not to lie to you, your fate began to worry me early on. You have always loved taking care of the young people you have taught in recent years, and many has approached you asking for your support that you give. Make no mistake for how much Burmese youth need people like you, like the team right now. And unfortunately, there is solidarity and compassion that exists, among other things. However, connecting with so many people, and many different groups can slowly become a threat in an environment full of informers. And yet, indeed, there was a more you had given me warnings, not about the more which you did not know about but the rest. You told me several times, that you were ready to give your life for this revolution for the truth. Not that long ago, you told me again that you would continue until you would be arrested. I knew I was no match for you when trying to encourage you to leave the country. When arguing you how much your safety depended on that move. Who was it to interfere with the plan you and the stars had agreed upon. You are a formal political prisoner who has already been locked up for several years. And a new arrest would be brutal for you and your loved ones, of which today I am apart. Therefore, on the second, we lost track of you. You lost your new hiding place with Wi Fi, and you have frankly spoken lost all your freedom and slipped into this other world. Just the materialized worlds makes one shiver down the spine. It's silly, but habits are hard to change. And I thought several times about sending you a message to ask where you were. And if you were holding on before reminding myself that my message would certainly be read by the fools the tormentors in green uniforms and groups. We didn't know where you were, we didn't even know if you were still alive. to replay or rest in the middle of the night made me nauseous. However, I have replayed it so many times that I started wondering about the details. In particular, are activists arrested in their pajamas. I think those nonsensical thoughts just kept me from overthinking the distress and must have felt when you heard them smashing the apartment or at 2am. So began this endless days searching for you. Looking for a needle in a haystack, in contact with those and young girls and indirectly your family. We have tried to contact the groups of people who seem to be in the best position to obtain in the long run perhaps information on your whereabouts. We managed to contract a lawyer who told us you're most probably in stray PETA being intoxicated. Because the words are chilling. So ago, you two were taken there. And I know that you had already experiences of physical and psychic miseries during your first imprisonment. We weren't 100% sure if you were there, there was a guest like many others. No one can go there and no lawyer has access to the place. You're very sadly at the mercy of the boots, and torture to get information from you. When you you too would never kneel down No matter how much difficult it was and how unbearable the situation had become. Two weeks later, your family received a phone call from an unidentified source and they told them you had been injured during interrogation. Find We had found you. But in what state? We didn't know. But you are still breathing a couple days later, you have finally transferred to insane. And at that moment, we all felt the kind of relief to this feeling. One can realize the human and destructive madness of what is happening in Burma is a has a dirty reputation and is described by former political prisoners as hell on earth. But now it's better than the worst of the worst. And you have a lawyer who can come and see you sometimes, he sure won't be able to do much, but in no way there is someone and they are trying their very best. The fate of prisoners is now defined by an improvised courtyard in the corridors of insane prison. Your sentence will be announced in a couple of weeks, or maybe months. And we suspect they will make it easy. They don't have that reputation. I don't know how you fit within these walls, or what you do to pass the time. I imagine you sometimes meditating, sometimes contemplating the rain. I wish you to have around you other political prisoners, as peacefully passionate as you are, and exchanges that allow your flame to remain a light. There are many political prisoners in Burma. And today, some of them have become prominent figures of the opposition to the chanter, their journeys and the person they have become our strength to find a little hope and to color the uncertainty of the future. Many of you in there are claiming this destiny and embodying the struggle for freedom. And we respect you also very much for that ago. Whatever they say, you know it already holding the light of freedom truly makes a difference. Your sacrifices are not in vain, and the sparkling lights are breaking through thick darkness. Take care of yourself, I asked you to the moon. On the other side of those gray walls, the revolution continues, and we are waiting for you. And even though we are disconnected for a while, we continue to share the same story sky. And if we know how to listen, I was told the doors could also pass on messages until sunako. As long as political prisoners exist inside Burma, Burma will not be free. They represent the struggle for democracy, human rights, equality, and freedom for the people of Burma assistance Association for political prisoners. Hey, good day.
Hla Hla 14:02
Hi, I'm Kyla, I am a mom, a Teacher, teacher, educator, and entrepreneur. I'm all the way from the more in my life. Education has been quite passionately since I was young, mainly because I wasn't the best student myself. My mom was a teacher. And all my answer teacher, they had typical time raising me because I had some challenges as a dyslexic and a kid with ADHD. Running around hard to pin down. But thanks to my mom, a teacher who didn't give up on me, I became literary and when did okay with my education as well. Now as a tech entrepreneur, I lead threesixty educator with my husband Ben when when late night in March. We are on we are at our house in the three storey building on top of a serving are doing the community watch for the community and as we live on a main road we see the police and you know our soldiers cars passing by and soon after we see another car, you know Evelyn's car that's kind of routine we do after 8pm you know because a pm is a curfew time and one night around 11pm certainly so so many soldiers so many soldiers trucks arriving and also police cars. As a curious person, I have phone in my hand I was started filming here now my hands shaking but I filmed me and then the soldiers get off from the truck. And with again outboard towards no way I was sitting and I decked out and I switch off the camera, only that I realized my camera has a light on when I was filming, this might be so me and you know, I'll just shoot there was so scared. Very close. And I tech and just watch what they were going to do. And instead of you know firings rounds of firing rounds and removing the barricades, you know, in the community. We live on the main road. So we watch. We do the community watch and report to the community during the groups. What's happening, you know how many soldier trucks how many police trucks coming. And that was very scary night. And they didn't come into the house. But it was so close these days then to loiter around the house for a few hours and taken away all the 38 pair gates. That was one of the scary encounter. And second time was when I was hiding when I was going to my sister house for hideout. And right in front of the city gauge not the Hong Kong ship, there was a lot of soldiers stopping the people coming into the nautical is after the bridge, and I got off and they were pushing people into the present truck. Luckily, that truck was full. So he let me get back on the taxi and get away, you know, go away and just push me but there was another close encounter.
Host 17:45
Before the February 1 coup Had you ever personally had encounters with Burmese police or military.
Hla Hla 17:53
In a lighter experience. I'm a teacher myself, I'm sorry. I have trained many police in my, in my earlier life. As an English language teacher in 2011 or 12, there was ASEAN numa was ASEAN chair and I was training, you know, patches of polices for the US in Nepal conference and you know, all the ASEAN related trainings and police reform, you know, I was part of it. So my encoder was police that time was as a professional teacher, you know, I was not afraid of them. Were my students, yes.
Host 18:42
Alright, so this was really quite a different experience of interacting with police, not as someone that you were training as participants and that in some ways they were referring to you as an authority, but to being someone on the street that was basically stripped of all rights and all legal processes of which anything could happen at any moment. And there wouldn't be any real recourse for that.
Min 19:08
Yeah, I myself also have encountered soldiers, you know, in my previously and but, but those are very different, you know, I grew up in yanko and yanko never, almost never had that kind of proof as friends with with military, especially if you're not that much of a political person. So I am just like any other people never really quite afraid of soldiers. And at one point, I was doing some research in Shan state. And then I I fall I counter soldiers coming to me and started to ask questions. And I just answered it nicely. And he seems he wants to make something and try to impose his authority to me. But I was too naive, that that's what he was doing. I didn't know I was just doing it nicely, and he was a bit of a taken aback, and then I just reflect on that later on, then he was, came into coming to me as kind of like a suspect, and he was basically, you know, asking me questions that are just doing the nicely. But that's, that's a different experience. And after the coop, and all the, you know, things that we we only heard reported in, in more border areas and in areas where, you know, a lot of other minority ethnic groups are there. Things like, the human rights violations and everything that happened. And after that, we, the, whenever we encounter soldiers and and police and it's not the same anymore, you know, the kind of how we see them and how we feel threatened by them.
Host 21:26
Yeah, and I can't imagine how traumatic that must be to live in a country where this potential of violence and brutality is perhaps has been there under the surface and is actually being perpetuated in places outside of the Braemar city centers, like in the ethnic areas, ways that that you haven't personally encountered.
Min 21:50
Well, these these kind of experiences kind of relevance to to our work, especially because now our day now, you know, just a few days ago, the military regimes or reopen the schools, so there's a lot of parents don't want to send their kids to schools, and they didn't, they chose not to. And, you know, there's a One reason is that some sort of strikes or protests, you know, in protest that they don't, they didn't pass and their coaches send their kids to school. And another reason is, they are also scared of COVID reimagine which is happening also in recent days. And, and also this, this encountering the, the uniformed personnel is also quite, it should be quite traumatic for for our children as well as adults who who hear or know about these stories and, and as some of them probably have already encountered them themselves. So So this is where our work come in that the home learning and learning from home home based learning solutions that we try to provide is pleased places like this, that timeline this should be tremendous success. Ss for for general populations in your ma
Host 23:32
Yeah, there's there's really so much trauma right now in Myanmar that you're touching upon and you talk about parents that don't want to send their kids to schools. It's my understanding that there's a lot of military and soldiers that are actually posted at the schools is that is that true? And what do you know about that?
Hla Hla 23:50
Yeah, in big cities like Yangon, we saw the pictures are soldier trucks you know, in front of the school gates and also parents also waiting you know, as a guarding if they choose one day to some of them who chose to send the kids to school mainly as a military family. And this in big city we saw the photos like that the soldier trucks you know, near the school gate and just waiting, you know, and in the small towns, classrooms we saw the photos also just letting the kids play with the guns in the classrooms. That's that's a big no no how events you know, to think about it and teachers and soldiers inside the classrooms. So when a mom like me, I would never think of risking my child's life because we see we see the incidents, the recent incidents of the soldiers using children and people as a human shield. So
Min 24:58
that is reported in the In the case of mentor, one day, when shootings happening
Host 25:07
Yeah, yeah, they were using civilians as human shields and you know, you're talking about a nation that is nowhere near recovering from trauma, let alone still living through the trauma every day of these terrible occurrences still happening. And then you're talking about schools that are opening and sending your kids into a school where soldiers with full ammunition and weapons are inside and outside the compound. They are acting sometimes without any discipline with a free range to do what they want. They're sometimes drugged up given drugs by their some some type of drugs by their their officers so that their behavior is even less in control. And it just sounds like a terrible storm of a situation where there's, there's really no protection for these kids and for their, their traumas, and outside triggers of what should be a safe space of education.
Hla Hla 26:08
Oh, I forgot to mention about one other incident. So the soldiers coming to our house, one day, we came back from all sides, and we got a call from home, not to come back home, because there's so many police trucks and soldiers, you know, out in the daytime, not even at nighttime, nighttime become kind of like regular and we just had to live through with it. But out in the open sun and the weather and we were almost home, you know, just once that stop away from it. So we pass in front of our house, so many so many soldiers and you know, police's showing the presence, your intimidation. So that evening, we decided to not, you know, live in the house anymore, and went out in a remote area where we live with other people, other families who also, you know, taking refuge in that place. And when on a happy note is, although there is no internet in that place, the children students, you know, have different ages, they are learning, continuously learning with apps, you know, that was on a happy note that because our learning apps decide not to reach International. So after the first download they have in their tablet or phones, and then you can continue to learn without internet. So we were it's kind of reassurance of what we do and importance of what we do the time like this, you know, when the military decided to cut down internet as they wish.
Host 27:49
Yeah. Right. So when you're talking about these three incidences, these three encounters with police and military after the coup, do you believe these encounters were happening? Because you were being targeted for any specific reason, personally, or was this just kind of the general terrorist state that was happening at this time?
Hla Hla 28:12
We cannot know for sure. And in our neighborhood, too, there's a friend of my or he's also quite high profile in our country, both men and I are quite high profile. They know many people who study in the States or bachelor master and especially would offer study policies, public policy, public administrations, and also providing policy consultants to the policy consultations to the you know, previous administrations and we're not only entrepreneurs, but also you know, deeply rooted statements and you know, for rebuilding the state, so for high profile like us might be targeting us or it might be just intimidation. But the study usually do, but we didn't dare to figure it out. Find out you know, face to face. we avoided hide it.
Min 29:05
Yeah, after we realized that we may not be safe at home. We just started to hide in a monastery compound outside of the city. There are lots of people who are there. The spiritual and religious compounds like these coming a great source of refuge and protection. Especially right after the coup. But even that is kind of change now, because our soldiers right now targeting church, mosque, and even monasteries are now.
Host 29:46
So how did you determine where to go to and then what was that trip like as you were trying to go a bit deeper into hiding?
Hla Hla 29:57
Yeah, and living in Django going Outside like humans, we have to have two sets of home, you know, regular home, we have to leave it at home, and another phone is outside for them to communicate back with a company that is creators, I have anything, you know, if they found any evidence that they told Mike, they normally take away the phone and arrested and next day, you know, inform the family to pick up either the body or the person with money. They were many incidents of people got arrested and the next day, they just send the body back home The Terminator two category. So we don't want any of those who wanted to watch. And even going out to downtown You know, when we had to do the necessary chose to driver alone is not enough to be watching out the person next to the driver and the person at the backseat, we cannot just listen to the music and go we have to like watch all the sites. And from time to time we have to make u turns because soldiers waiting in the you know, 10 yards in front of us we have to make this certain U turn and when you know like that. So living in Django was the safer place safest place we know, you know, because we both of us were born and raised in Django, but can like totally different, you know, area.
Min 31:29
One thing that needs some appreciation is that all the imperfection we have with so called democracy. Before the coup, people were able to speak out, people can criticize the government, some sort of dialogues were happening, some lively debates happening. People are not afraid anymore. Unlike in the previous time when military authoritarianism was in place a remark which is not long ago. But all these progress has taken the U turn, the T that could happen and carry more since then. So for many people in your Ma, it wasn't just a matter of this party versus that party. It wasn't just a matter of nlg versus the military or green versus red. liberal versus conservative. It was it was the democracy itself. The freedom itself is really getting assaulted quite rudely. And and it's it's more like the authoritarianism versus democracy. There are a lot of people who are really critical of an LG government before the coup, but you know, the, they are now vehemently opposed to the coup. Because of that.
Host 33:00
Yeah, you know, one question I have, as you're talking about how things have changed so dramatically from being a place where you do have certain laws and rights that even if they're not up to the standard you'd like to live in, they at least provide basic protection to having to live by law of probability. And one of the things I'm thinking about is just some of the erosion of democratic principles we saw in my own country in America, with Trump's presidency, and it could have been a lot worse than it actually was. And one of the safeguards that people have mentioned, is that there were people in certain positions high too low in the American government, that when push came to shove, they simply would not go too far over the line to be able to support the undemocratic and the autocratic tendencies that we were seeing in Trump. And that was one of the things that kind of safeguard our system. And so thinking back on the Myanmar example, and thinking of these police that you personally trained, Lola, that you were there in a professional capacity that this was both of your cities, walking around and interacting with people and having some kind of personal contact, that these are still individuals within a system. And overnight, the system has changed into being something that was tending towards democracy towards tending towards lawlessness, but you still have individual figures that as an America that have some kind of decision in their own life, where they're going to enact lawlessness or some kind of personal protection or rights. And I don't mean to compare the two countries are examples because they're very, very different. I only mentioned that comparison because it's a similar instance of a have a figure at the top who's tending towards lawlessness and then individual people in their positions that are having to choose personally how they Follow that within their own position and their role. And so someone like you both who have worked with in a professional capacity, but these people who have interacted with them before the coup, why do you think it was that so many of them just chant seem to change overnight seem to not be able to have this kind of ethical stand of resisting these brutal orders from above?
Hla Hla 35:29
I used to have that question in my mind when I was doing the training, at first I refuse to do the training, you know, to the police. And then, I was curious, you know, why, the way the way they were, you know, I was the 1996 uprising, and it Ada uprisings, you know, the previous uprisings that I had encounter. So when I talked to them, when we become like, quite feel the trust of, you know, this person, I can trust this person, I can list trust type of level. And they told me that one they were, I asked them, Why did you behave that way, you know, cracking down the most hedge, you know, in the 1996 uprising is what make you do that, you know, it's beyond the order, the order, you can always refuse. And, you know, it's not that simple and easy. The whole family lives in the compound, you know, and their family's lives is at risk. And also, they were deprived from food and sleep, and, you know, regular human routines, you know, like they had to live in the pavement in a very severe tense case, like, uprisings, then the soldiers were made to live on the streets, you know, for days and nights without going through the bathroom, having a meal, three meals a day, maybe one meal, or no meal the whole day, the weekend, and they cannot think through. So in a way, they were trained to think that because of these people in the street, we are put into dispersion, because of this beautiful industry, our family is in danger. So they see the people know as the people, you know, they see people as the enemy, and also drugs, you know. So places become very dramatic, and also, you know, the trunk adding to uncover addition and trying to heal their guilt over tribes in a lot of the police's. We have this problem here trying to heal in their own way. Now, this happened, and we still see the same pattern. You know, in 1988, my daughter was I, I was my daughter's age. And I, I live with my grandma, who is very politically politically active. And she took me to the, you know, when, when talk show after another in the streets, and I saw her when she covered my eyes, and then I was not supposed to look. But as a curious child, I peek and I saw the hats hanging on the trees, you know. So that was my encounter when I was my daughter's age. And I pass through, you know, and again, it says, 997, uprisings and not again, you know, is this a repeating cycle of this, you know?
Host 38:46
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And when you look at some of the pressures that different republicans were in our country of Trump's anti democratic leanings, you're talking about political pressures, you're talking about career pressures, you're not talking about threats to one's family to one's life, not being able to think rationally in terms of being deprived of different types of food or sleep or safe quarters, let alone being fed drugs and alcohol. And so yeah, this is enormous pressure that even the security forces are under in terms of not being human to be able to think through rationally and process and make the right decision and so they're also put into a position where they're being given terrible orders and very little leeway in terms of what it would take to not follow them. Of course, some have defected and some have refused to follow them, but there's just so much more pressure on them to and less ability for, for being able to look at alternatives.
Min 39:55
Oh, another important point to make is that Since the first group happened in 1962, the education system in the country has been systematically destroyed the rote learning and the old over emphasis sizing on the authority of the teachers as empowering his or her our students. So, embody his or her knowledge to the students. And, and we know students just passively receiving the knowledge. This model of education has also contribute to prolonging the authoritarianism that we have in the country. If, if you are successful, as passive students who simply memorize the materials, and your success is determined only on how much you can materialize. What a what a authority presented to you, be it a textbooks on one wheel lecture by an all knowing, infallible teacher, that you are bound to be passive citizens who just look for authority figures to tell you what is good, or what is not. in the, in the political political arena. This is where our our applications that we making coming in these applications, we promote self directed learning, using the tools that we invented, the teachers then can become really good guides or facilitators that nurture students intellectual curiosity, facilitate the process of students on discovery and learning, as opposed to dictating everything that students are educations about,
Hla Hla 42:08
as the educator, ourselves, and also parents and also who spiritual. We believe the learning and education is beyond our schools and also beyond the knowledge is discerning the wisdom and learning the ethical values and you know, more soft skills, the necessary skills that in our time that teachers can provide, it's now the students are taking the initiative and doing the learning in thanks to all the meteors and exposures that we have now. So we want to shift like mister want to shift the model of sage on the stage to mohite on the site. But it won't happen unless there are tools around that people can have access to freely and also affordable Li and also the tools to empower the teachers to become super teachers, not just downloading and loading the knowledge to the students brain and testing on their memory like a better pair or who is the best pair or in the first row get for one, you know that game anymore to change the game and also to expand the horizont of green being more problem solver, you know, being more active roles, active citizens other than just sharing what they know, many decades ago to the young age is not okay anymore. So we want to build, we wanted to build the tools, many tools for teachers and students. And that's where we started, you know, in 2016, Silicon Valley and 2017 Myanmar. And we now have a team of 7080 individuals working directly for the coop working for us full time and we have 50 apps with over 400,000 downloads users anymore. And we want to continue and now is the time to really essential, you know, for students to be safely learning at home and continuous access to learning. It is critical for us to keep pushing, you know, and providing democratizing access to the learners.
Host 44:38
Right, so that's probably a good point to transition a little bit more to your background and what you were doing with your company. You described a bit about the theoretical underpinnings of what you were trying to do and why you were trying to do it and your goals and objectives. Maybe you can share a bit about actually what it was how it worked technically what the system was. We're trying to build and how learners and students in Myanmar specifically were able to make use of it for child education.
Hla Hla 45:09
myself for 18 years prior to becoming an edtech, intrapreneur, I have gone many different hats, elementary school teacher, teachers, trainer, previously founder and education policy applicator analyst, and even trying to set up a nonprofit America grace College in your mind, she goes, I was born into a low income, middle class family or government service. And SSD education was a luxury that my parents cannot, my family can afford. And I also struggle as struggle in school as a dyslexic student. And but I made it through with the help of my mom feature. And regardless of my struggles, and financial situation, I won Junior scholarships to study abroad. And personally, I'd be interested to improve each so much so that I want to give back to the country I was wanting to make a difference, and help other students like me, you know, who needs extra help? Who are not stupid? How about the extra help, or visualizing the learning thing. So when I saw the technology, like augmented reality, I was so excited that things the abstract things become visible. And once they could figure it out how to make a learning stick, it's also build confidence, and in their own journey, so we want to go a company, and that's what we have been doing. And I, yeah, I'm born educator, born in your mom, one reason your mom and being in the education family, and my husband, man, also the educators family, and we're so privileged.
Host 46:57
Right, so it sounds like you definitely had your own background in education, the value of education, as a student, and then as well as being a teacher, a teacher trainer, looking into learning acquisition and being on that side of it. And you've certainly also had a sense of service to your country and wanting to look at improving the lives of people there. And then the policy side as well, just looking at what does it take two changes society and starting first with public policy and reforms at the very top and seeing that there's more effective ways to come from the private sector. But the missing piece in all of this is the tech side. Tech is a whole other field of development and knowledge and skill and everything else. So did you also have a background or training in tech? Or did you know people? How did that part come along, when you were creating the app?
Hla Hla 47:51
After the habit, monster degree, I got into the Google's innovation, I got to get innovation grant to study his financial technologies in Silicon Valley. And inspired from the Kennedy School of Government, I challenged myself by what can I do for my country. And to better study at the Singularity University, I came to realize how the technology can age in creating sustainable impact strongly and MPa, even billions of people. And I used to think that public policy is the only way to make system level change. But I study when I study about disruptive innovations and technologies in a carries the risk, that might not work, but if we embrace the uncertainty of innovation,
Min 48:34
yeah, I must say that education at Singularity University really helped by stretching help us, you know, extend our boundary, and thinking really big. They really encourage us to think further for the, to look for the bigger pitchers, and to really make a difference in a way that normally people wouldn't look for. Such as you know, to really strive for the solutions that has never been there before. You know, and also, not just look at Nima, but also look at the whole regions or even the whole, the whole world to our thinking.
Hla Hla 49:25
Yeah, when I took my place at Singularity University, I was challenged to come up with an idea that will potentially change the lives of 1 billion people. And my heart naturally turned to home as Nima is, you know, how stand by the lack of so many things, planning resources, infrastructure, and why only 15 million people we have so much to repair, build and heal, but I see the opportunity to impact in education as an educator myself, it's It is my passion and learning and I we both believe that education is the catalysts for the moment and sustainability Say economy, and it's also the catalyst and transformation of a democracy, you know, from juvenile to mature and durable. So we see that education has beginning, middle and end for creating a nation that we pray for and strive to achieve. So we both investor, although we come from different places I from me from the education but men from the environmental policy, we come to build this education technology company, and, you know, we, this, this, to this updates to contribute back to the society.
Host 50:41
Right, so all of these different factors and aspects came together in the creation of your app coming from an education, background and public policy background, a sense of service to the country, getting into technology, and learning about how to actually make apps that work and reflect the methodology you're aiming for. So all of this came together in the role that you wanted to play in supporting the democratic transition that was going on in the last decade, and reforming the educational sector as we see how important that is from educating the youth in your country to grow up and to take on those values that you're teaching through education in a holistic way that aren't putting in putting the teacher as an authority at the center of the classroom and the center of the learning of right and wrong and having learning things rote, which as we know, happens, not just in the schools, but also throughout the monasteries these days, and wanting to open it up to a more critical, open minded examination of content, you put all of that into your app. So that happened a few years ago, how were those last few years and the launch of the app? How was it received
Hla Hla 51:55
similar learnings or learnings and we believed in the hybrid model model or technology and human interaction so technology is is not magic. No, we do not give somebody a device that is also so wonderful things automatically happen. So we address the dramatic shortage of quality teachers checks and learning eights in the mall. And using the video audio essentially 3d graphics you know, I myself is a very visual learners. But I so scared of science, because science is being taught in English language that I do not understand just learning by heart. But when I'm married to a scientist, and he will read the books, that's his science, like three books thoroughly. I admire him and I also jealous Oh, why don't you help us learn science in a more fun way, you know, he loves science. So using this 2d 3d graphics and augmented reality on the digital mobile phones in here with the flashcards and government textbooks, we provide the innovative and affordable sets of education tools, and criticals to men is a Chief Product officer. And he managed nine teams of product development teams, building the project, you know, throughout learning ourselves, and also helping our team learns as well. Because what we're building is no, is something that's not existed before. So we learn as we go iterate rounds around the iteration, and we now have 15, beautiful learning apps in your mouth. And yeah, so these are commercial sites. And from the free sites, we have five totally free apps. So altogether 20 apps in Yama in about 400,000 users so far.
Host 53:40
Okay, when you talk about this augmented learning tool, this app that you've created, and you said it's never existed before, as a clarification, did you mean that nothing like this has ever existed in Myanmar language and to me and my students, or as far as you know, is this the first kind of educational app for augmented learning that has ever existed period.
Min 54:02
This similar products in the market, especially in our global markets, but as far as we can find our our applications are the first really the augmented reality based learning apps that are curriculum based. And also there have also been some development in the labs of some major research, university and facilities. And many of them are developed for schools and some niche markets. We are the pretty much the first one of the first if not the first, to create this kind of applications for commercial and mass market. So it is fair to say that our apps have first You know, one of these fans Hi not just in Nima but in in the world that's also why we got recognized by organization like UNESCO World Economic Forum's vacations and Harvard Kennedy School
Hla Hla 55:14
yeah what sets us apart from other education learning FCS, we build for the bottom billion Sudoku has only mobifone and we democratize SS in not just the richest University in us or Brazil or UK have this augmented reality learning lab we bring those labs into the homes of your daily income is less than $1. So we democratize access and the learning the science you know, learning designs is interactive. We as a parent have digital nature at home we are being challenged constantly you know, if the app is no fun and if the app is not interactive, my daughter She will not touch it you know she is a very active manner and she wants to play like you know in the present as she plays you know, not just watching a video tireless one after another so we were given challenged by our daughter and to make the interactive learning and the learning design with augmented reality bringing abstracts into the hops node like textbook pops like that. So yeah, that sets us apart and also building for the fortune tgnc not just the students from your mob, but it has a potential to scale up to other other countries who do not have you know, expensive things like laptops or you know, other devices or we have his mobile phone and they don't even have internet you know, to have regularly they're just no problem you know, we build with the most challenging some situation you're more electricity is luxury internet is celebratory. And if they have a cheap smartphone with $100 smartphone from China, that's all we have we built it sets us apart. And recently, we also received this Digital Innovation Award from Harvard Kennedy School for public service and using the innovation technology.
Host 57:18
So this was really like a tech innovation success story that was bringing together the reality in Myanmar in so many other developing countries and using technology and using the the kind of preferences of digital natives in terms of how they like to interact with the internet and what they were looking for. So using the platform and the advantages of the internet, but having a background of methodology and business that was very solid and so and so the learning was able to take place the app was able to be successful through a lot of kids just enjoying to be able to do things on their phone, which is what kids everywhere like but especially when they don't have access to a lot of other types of what are luxuries for them that are more standard in other parts of the world. So so that it sounds like that was just really a Myanmar tech success story in the making that was only able to come about because of the democratic reforms that allowed this kind of freedom and experimentation and new products to roll out new ways of thinking happening. And then with the coup this, this as well as so many other things are are now in jeopardy of this kind of innovation this progress is has now been stopped by this control trying to reassert itself.
Min 58:55
Yeah Joe, it it has been really difficult especially since after in addition to safety concern of ourselves and our team. difficulty in financial transactions and sales operation really stop us from progressing any further. We have to post some of our operations apart from very important and the most damaging aspect of this reckless minus and stupid grabbing of power. This that investor confidence has really caught it down the drain from the T one of the so has consumer confidence and brand value for thermistor brands like ours. But fortunately for three ch most of our assets are in intellectual and also on the cloud, as opposed to physically tied to the country. So we are now in the process of restarting the business, as well. And continuing the products and the services, we have worked so hard to travel all over the last four years. But you're right, you know, it won't be MMR brands or products anymore. And we have very little chance to contribute to my economy, even with the potential future success that we might have. It is really frustrating and heartbreaking.
Hla Hla 1:00:44
And it's beyond your mind, you know, since we imagine, you know, in the symbology University classroom, the challenge is to impact 1 billion people positively right. And we know that it syncs after 2016. And due to the telecommunication transformation, one common medium that almost every hospital has, is a mobile phone, it has the same computing power, you know, mobile for enable the first move money in 1969. So we envision a day in the near future where access to quality learning is democratized by mobifone technology. And we committed to making sure it's not something that remains as a dream, it's very much a reality. And we are now on our way to make more series of Hawaiian learning apps through support of this movement. So this will be a movement in your mouth for for media students, and also have a meeting and teachers in their mark to be part of his movement and continuous learning at home, you know, safely. So we clenching planning is well on our way to serve millions students, English language, and whiskey passes through the wall. And the science is necessary to be full participants in the ones who come and we all know that the role for democracy is long and winding. But we believe that continuous access to quality education will get there faster.
Host 1:02:12
Yeah, and I think stories like these are so important because as those of us outside the country are hearing about the coup, I think we often get caught in some of the details that are happening day to day just the terror in the streets, the repression the just one bad story after another and as bad as these more I was gonna say superficial, I don't mean superficial in a way that's unimportant, but they're they're just at the surface, they're things that we're reading and hearing about at the forefront of the some of the negative effects of the military takeover. And these are the things that are really in our mind, just the things that we're hearing and reading about seeing and videos, hearing testimonials of things that are taking place in in the streets, the confrontations between the security forces and the activists. And stories like these are reminding us about just the depth of destruction of senseless destructions that has been wrought by this illegal military takeover that whether you're looking at education or environment, or or intercultural interfaith dialogue, or any number of things entrepreneurial, all of these fields that were all despite the difficulties, and the rough roads were kind of trending in really positive directions. And there was so much good that was coming through in Burmese society through these democratic reforms of people able to follow their dreams and their passions in ways that they never had before. And through hard work able to, to do things with their plans and their projects, whatever they were, and to see that blossoming year by year as they as people came into contact with ideas from other countries with the internet itself, and, and all of that, that all of these things were opening and moving and really exciting in dynamic ways. And so I think this conversation is also so important because as we look at the damage that has been caused by the coup and the takeover, it's not just the things we're reading in the headlines. It's not just the stories that are popping out at us and that anyone who can just read or hear one thing Oh, man, that's terrible. That's, you know, that's the normal human response. But there's these much more damaging underlying structural problems that this coup was causing, such as your company on track to be a Myanmar born technological success story that also was providing democratically access to education to people with limited resources and encouraging them to learn in ways that were methodologically sound that This whole project is now somewhat in jeopardy or at least challenged by not having access to a society that is, as law following and law abiding and that and where there's certain basic freedoms that place. And so it's just it's so tragic and it just affects the lives of so many millions of people not just now, but obviously for the future of what education means when you're able to educate children and what they're able to go on and do with that education. And it also just, it tells us the stakes of this movement that this this is still an ongoing process. This was not a successful military coup, this was an attempted coup that is still being resisted in any number of ways, as you mentioned, CDM and others today, and it just reminds us of the stakes of what is going on and why support is so needed by people within and outside the country right now, to be able to put that democratic leadership back in place so that this trends that Myanmar society was going towards before the coup can be continued in some way.
Hla Hla 1:06:18
Share definitely the the following the very first group, military introduced cyber security law less threatening, maybe the Generation Z for whose lives are enjoying the digital tools on daily basis. And without the proper registration, anyone with a position or computer or have a social media accounts or genetic conditions, we can be put into prison easily. The same old scare tactic is being used to make the entire population criminal so that they can, they can arrest anyone at their convenience. and promoting digital learning will enable for long civil disobedience movement, which military dictator fear. So social business or providing digital, any solution for students and teachers provision of the wrong become at a huge risk. At first we pause, we just pause the operation to be part of the movement you know, urgently and to to our safety, our team members, you know, because then we have to move on locations hiding our personal safety, but we soon realize that he's hiding in the pants and safety pieces are not sustainable solutions for education mission and our personal safety. So we we decided to seek out new, sustainable, safe place for mental and physical and they're where we are right now is safe. And we continue to strive on our mission to continue with that we won't be intimidated.
Min 1:08:05
It is important to state that education and solutions that we provide really fit current situations where security is the main constant for going to schools and to be able to provide access to quality education in the most difficult of circumstances. That we there's a continuity of learning for our young, younger generation. And we need to we need help rolling that plan out.
Hla Hla 1:08:36
crowdfunding, crowdfunding platform will be up and running. And we position ourselves as a Red Cross or education rolling out of this course such as English science and mathematics. For grade one to grade four altogether, there will be 49 apps 49 apps for all these grades and five is already Gen and up to about 5 million students in the primary level that we are serving. So far, we don't reach to millions yet, but I think it's well on the way and we need help. And we can't do this alone. We are a social enterprise. But now we are positioning ourselves as this, you know, workforce education. So we need help from the individuals and also the woman bothers to be contributing to this fundraising.
Host 1:09:39
Right. And so you're talking about the evolution development of this business as you've had to change your own personal life so dramatically and I want to get back to that because you started off with that to lead off the episode and we never got to hear the rest of your personal story. So you to recap where we left off, you had talked about three very terrifying encounters with police and military, both in proximity of your home as well as when you were out on the street. And this and you did not know if this was targeting you specifically for being high profile, having been educated in the US and advising, public policy and previous administrations. So you fell for your family's safety to leave young gone and go into the countryside, you successfully pass through some checkpoints to be able to reach your destination? Can you pick off where we left off? And tell us where what what happened at that point and how things were going?
Hla Hla 1:10:47
Yeah, when we were hiring, it's outside of Django. And it's that place we have visited before when my mom was in the meditation camp, you know, we visited her once or twice, and then that can become the refugee camp, basically, well, when we started, when we first one day, they were about 100 families, you know, it's been fed by the Buddhist monks, and it's different. So you know, your front wall is very peaceful, and we do the meditation and also listen to the sermon. It's like a different goal. But it's not sustaining, you know, and by the time we left, the place, they were about 200 families, I grew. And they started building the bomb shelter, you know. So it's the place where one day for meditation, become pursuits, you know, refugee camp, in a way and also, yeah, so I really appreciate the the Buddhist community community in place, like we won, we claim to Roshan shelter for mental, spiritual, and also physical.
Min 1:12:12
Yes, we have left the country multiple times before for work for studies for business trip, but this time, we left it was really different. Previously, even when we left for, for the US to study for a long period of time, we were sure that we were coming back. So it wasn't that emotional. This time, we're not sure, we hope that we'll be able to come back, but it could just be permanent relocation. So there was a tremendous sadness and felt that something in us, some part of us died. And on top of that, there was some sort of survival gear. We knew intellectually that we have taken the best course of action and this very difficult circumstances and we will continue to be working for the country. But stay emotionally it's it's hard not to fake faculty want. A lot of the people in my society suffered tremendously. These emotions were on top of this intense fear before before, you know, the our plane to pardot that something could happen to us at the airport, and on the way on the way there.
Host 1:13:51
So you basically became refugees in hiding in a way from your home in the city at a Buddhist monastery in the countryside, which itself became home to a growing number of refugees who are fleeing for similar reasons as yourself and we're actually building bomb shelters to be more sustainable over time. Amazing that they have the resources to be able to do all this at a time like this when everything is just becoming broken and closed off and then eventually you decided to leave the country and I can't imagine what that must have been like to come back to your homeland with all of your gifts and skills and training to want to serve it and then to have to make the difficult decision to remove yourself from it so emotionally as well as logistically I'm wondering about your exit from the country were you able to leave safely did Were there any risks and that physically and then emotionally What was it like to have to, to have to decide to leave at this time
Hla Hla 1:14:59
personally You know, from our work and also, you know,
Min 1:15:06
school,
Hla Hla 1:15:06
I have been to United States for like 1314 times, you know, and other countries about the same, you know, 1413 times different countries. Countries like 1516 countries in my life and never had I feel the same, you know, this time, not only the fear of getting arrested at the airport, but also the fear of not being able to go home or see the family again.
Host 1:15:41
So, you had referenced at the beginning of the conversation that when you arrived in a foreign country outside of Myanmar, just the process of showing your passport was that itself was was quite a moment, quite an emotional moment of transition. So, could you say more about what that was like, then?
Hla Hla 1:16:00
Yeah, during the transit points, they were police in the, you know, Domino's just walking around and making sure people's Okay, you know, and sewing them, my heart jumps, you know, and I held my daughter's hand tightly, and she was also you know, scared. This, please, we know that, you know, they are not from your VA, and they are not there to threaten us, or, you know, to put us into danger. But that was our first encounter in a transit point. And when we came into our final destination to at the airport, the uniformed personnel, you just checking, checking up passport, and, you know, randomly and checking luggage is and got so scared. I have nothing in my belongings to be scared of, you know, I have nothing illegal or anything, but the uniform person I was, you know, and the trauma we had from your mom, you know, that respect? And yeah.
Host 1:17:08
Right, I mean, you're going from seeing these people in uniforms and being used to them as lawless agents of terror that are able to do anything at any time without penalty. And then being in another country where these people wearing different uniforms but but also performing the similar role are actually not being lawless agents of terrorists, but are trying to uphold those laws. And although in United States and other countries, certainly not to say that all policemen and soldiers are, you know, following the rule of law perfectly and everything that they do, but that there are certainly more procedures in place than what we're seeing with the security forces in Myanmar just running reckless at every turn, and actually, being encouraged to inflict this terror. So that's, that's really, I can imagine that moment on what a profound thing it was.
Hla Hla 1:18:07
And the experience of being the nightwatch you know, after even after midnight, you know that when I was sleeping here in this place, and hearing the car press buying through my sleep, I woke up and then you know, rushed out and I realized No, I'm not back home. I don't need to report
Host 1:18:32
right and you mentioned about your grabbing your daughter's hand tightly at that moment. Your daughter has been with you through all of this she's young and she grew up before the coup and what was a much more peaceful and safe society and she's now been with you through the coup through having to run into hiding at the monastery through having to escape and be outside so what has her experience been in bringing on this new world and I should also mention as I'm asking that I'm recalling what you said at the beginning of the conversation in 1988 of going to the streets yourself when you were her age seen decapitated heads on spikes and and you awakening to this reality of terror at that time in 1988 coming from a place of innocent childhood and now her going through somewhat of a similar experience now so what does it been like working with her? What is she been going through?
Min 1:19:28
Oh, Tara really has been amazingly resilient. Although she hasn't been any from consulting session, as far as we could observe. She has been doing very well. At least for for for six years. But she's, she seems to have developed some fear for uniformed personnel. Apart from the she she seems to be quiet
Hla Hla 1:20:03
Yeah, more than 3000, politicians, scholars, educators, students, and educates us being detained and locked inside prisons, where their bodies are tortured, their rights violated, because your morals and your speech and ordinary people in the mall pay too heavy a price essential therapists have human rights and civil rights. Many have sacrificed so much so that the next generation can have a bigger, brighter future. And we will not let their sacrifices to be wasted and will continue to work on our mission to serve millions of students could democratize access to continuous access to quality education. And we fully believe that is the road to democracy is long, but education, access to education will get there faster, and we are committed to doing so. Thank you very much.
Min 1:21:06
Yes, I want to say that this crisis in America we are experiencing will be the importance in the history of not only our country, but of the whole region. And possibly, to the to the whole world. I don't think it is, and it should just be the struggle for dummies people. It is a human destroyer against its own demons. its own demon in the form of military, authoritarianism, and totalitarianism. And it definitely not a political problem, not just a political problem for asuci and National League for Democracy. So any help that any of you can give to those in the front line of the struggle in the movement will have a greater impact than changing just a few lives. It will determined what kind of rules that we want to live in, in 21st century and beyond. So please, oh,
Host 1:22:30
yeah, those are powerful words. And thanks for sharing that. And I think that it also underscores a point that was made a bit earlier in our conversation that this was a coup that was initiated and attempted, this is not a coup that was successful, and that has taken over. And we are still living through this process day by day. And there are things that all of us can do in our roles to help make the coup unsuccessful. And that's more of a long term goal. But there are also things that we can help to do to make life there more bearable and supportive, even as this attempted coup persists. Even however long this is taking so that the lives of people, as they're living them day to day is not under the same kind of terror and deprivation that the military is trying to put them under. And just as you have used your resources and your background, both before the coup was the demick democratic transition was taking place as well as since February 1, and you're using all of your your resources to help the people that are in your capacity, as you just kind of inferred, you're building this app to help the CDM workers outside of just the education of the younger kids. So that's that's just a beautiful example of how in our different positions, we could do things that serve this moment and serve people there. And so it's a I think it's a really profound reminder just to all of us to those of us who are living in somewhat more free societies with more rights that are guaranteed that we do have the luxury and the ability to use, that freedom that many of us might take for granted for a hire service of those that do not have it or that have immense penalties for doing things that we wouldn't think twice about. And and there's so much that all of us can do. There's big things and small things and the small things matter a lot. Even if it's nothing more than just reaching out to some friend you have somewhere in Myanmar just letting them know that they're in your hearts, they're in your prayers, they're in your meta, something as small as that goes a long, long way to all the way up to volunteering or donating or creating or advocating or protesting here in wherever your country is. There's now protests for free Myanmar around the world. So I think there's there's so much that all of us can do and this is just one story of one thing that has been done and is being done and you know I hope it also serves as a greater inspiration for everyone out there to think about their own stations and their own advocacy.
Hla Hla 1:25:09
Thanks for taking time to have a conversation with us. It's been quite difficult to go back to the relay, but it's worth revisiting and sharing with you.
Host 1:25:25
I certainly can understand and appreciate going back to some of those painful memories that maybe this is the first time since they've happened, that they've been revisited. And, you know, thank you for sharing that vulnerably with our audience so they can have a better understanding. And with that, I really wish you safety in terms of where you are now and what you're trying to do and success in some of those initiatives. And thanks so much for taking the time to be here and to join us. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this show. I understand that this is an enormously difficult time for many people these days, myself included. And just the mere fact of staying informed is helping to keep a focus on this pertinent issue. And the only way that we can do our job of continuing to provide this content at this very critical time is through the support of generous donors, listeners like yourselves. So if you found this episode of value and would like to see more shows like this on the current crisis, please consider making a donation to support our efforts. Either monthly pledges or one time donations are fully appreciated. And all funds go immediately to the production of more episodes like this one. Thank you deeply in advance and best wishes at this time. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form of currency or transfer method. every cent goes immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. Donations go to support such causes as a civil disobedience movement CVM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. Or if you prefer, you can earmark your donation to go directly to the guests you just heard on today's show. In order to facilitate this donation work, we have registered a new nonprofit called better Burma for this express purpose. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is now directed to this fund. Alternatively, you can visit our new better Burma website, which is better Burma one word.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me slash better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and cash app. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. In all cases, that's better Burma one word spelled b e t t e r bu r Ma. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration.
Hla Hla 1:29:34
How are ya?