Transcript: Episode #72: Resiliency in the Face of Terror

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Meredith Bunn, which appeared on September 23, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

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Host  00:10

I'm really excited to bring you the upcoming interview with a very special guest. You'll hear her discussing all the great courageous work that she is currently engaged in. And if you feel inspired to help her with these efforts, please consider making a donation earmarked for her projects, or feel free to give a general donation that will support the wider movement in Myanmar. Our ongoing support is so helpful and appreciated by the Burmese people during these dark days. Simply go to Insight myanmar.org slash donation to contribute today. or stay tuned to the end of the episode to hear more options. Now, let's hear from that guest herself.

May Oo  00:50

At his Simone activist, she was interviewed on March 27. I was afraid. I was shocked and I felt lost. But at the same time, I was asking myself, what should we as young woman do first? I never expected the military crew to happen again. That day, a friend of mine was staying over at my rented apartment in yongle san john township at around 4:30am both of us received phone calls, saying that the leaders also Soo Ji and Omar had been arrested. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Really? Are you sure? After a while the breaking news was everywhere. I thought I was dreaming. I even consider that it might just be a joke or propaganda by the military, for calls with families and friends who knew that after the news had been confirmed, I began to reflect on my life up until that point. Born in 1988, when the previous military coup took place, I had been denied opportunities for better education and high income my whole life. I thought I won't let this happen again to my younger peers, the so called generation set. I was afraid. I was shocked and I felt lost. But at the same time, I was asking myself what should we as young women do first? Before the coup, I had been planning to work in Yangon for another two years, and then move back to my home state to start an organization focusing on the environment, learn issues and research. I had already imagined setting up a library and connecting with similar organizations, both in Myanmar and abroad. However, all my plans were changed and all my dreams were lost on February 1. I knew I had to reprioritize and very quickly my number one priority was to be a part of the resistance movement against the military coup. Luckily, my employer has been very understanding and continues to support me financially. Even though I don't work irregular hours anymore. My life plans are ruined, but we must fight and we must win. I spent the first few weeks of February in Yangon. But after that I had to move back to my state for security reasons. The situation in big cities here is the same though. shootings, killings and arrests on one hand and strikes, protests and the civil disobedience movement on the other. in villages people are scared. The newly imposed 8pm to 4am curfew has made their lives difficult. Many of them work on rubber plantations and would normally leave their work in the very early hours of the morning. socials also arrest villages at random, only to ask their families for ransom 50,000 Mubarak jets, which is about 30 US dollars. The same strategy was used during previous military takeovers by parents still remember the pain and carry the trauma of those times. They tell me that participating in the movement is dangerous and that we the people will never win. I have mostly been offering technical support to the movement and typically attend meetings all day. So I generally keep a low profile out in the streets. When I feel angry or upset. I stopped checking the news for a while. I have even deactivated my facebook account temporarily. What also helps me feel better is playing with children and cute animals like puppies. Actually, it's impossible for me to read or concentrate on anything at the moment. Even my dreams at night are about the military coup. It has really disrupted my life. At the same time. I am very grateful that I've gotten to experience so many young people from the different nationalities of Myanmar. Working together. In one powerful moment, we were standing together with our different national flags. And I thought to myself,

Meredith  05:10

or unite, maybe it wasn't really a good day. So around a week ago, we received a phone call from a group in the mountains, they have managed to get in contact with somebody who had cell phone, they managed to contact us, we were told there was a large group of children and young adults hiding away. And three of them have already died from hunger and disease, many of them were sick, either due to flooding, or due to COVID, or due to the situation around them. This kind of includes chronic diarrhea. So they were losing fluids very quickly. What we were describing what we told them, what we saw, were children that was so malnourished, and in the situation so dire, that they'd look similar to those who were in these children living on insects, and basically, to try and set themselves up for what we had been told around the location, we have to keep quiet. So obviously, because it seems these children are hiding from something, we were able to get them food and water, but we still need to get they are struggling, in more ways mentioned for us. Because another problem surrounding them, they are now at because they're sick, they are being turned away from villages, they're being shunned, they're being banished the most. So we have a group of children starving to death, living insects in the forest in the mountains, unable to get access to anything. And that is certainly something that happens or is trying to do to move people into more areas. And it's despicable in more ways than I can certainly.

Host  08:05

So you're saying this is something that could be intentional, by the time it ought to have all these starving roaming disease children, if so what would be the advantage of that

Meredith  08:15

not necessarily in the manner of just children, it's, it's something they have calculated and have done in the past. Certainly, they purposely put people in position of disadvantage moments where they aren't able to do anything, and to the point where others have to turn them away. The key points of them pushing people to flee into the forest. And hence mountains is obviously to spread the wake of what they're doing. More people out of sight to meet more people they can take care of late. They certainly use their power of choice, which is fire, and fear. And so we're seeing in these situations that they are purposely pushing people who are in such a disadvantaged state to go out of sight so they can take care of later dates, that maybe perhaps wasn't intention for it to just be children and young adults. But if they have no use for them, then they need them. But

Host  09:24

for those who are unfamiliar with the cruelty of the time that this has certainly been a learning experience. Any kind of aid is stolen by the military, but if it happens to slip by both the donors and the recipients are labeled as criminals. More recently, we've seen them literally stealing the oxygen that infected Coronavirus. Patients need to breathe to stay alive. It's almost like they're attacking the people and then punishing anyone who tries to offer support. So I guess the question I have for you is how do you make sense of this?

Meredith  09:56

Unfortunately, I can answer those It's a situation where she would never have to move. But the termidor is using calculated methods to make sure that those who are rethinking the reign of power and kind of ironic sense. They're making sure that these people are in putting to a search or hopeless state that they want stopped to almost get in. And to make sure that they are allowed to be in a state of emergency and make sure that the outside community international communities have no choice but to come into Myanmar, on their authority, collaborating with the tattenhall, further legitimizing their power, further legitimizing that region, and allowing them to also gain funds and resources from international organizations. something we've been seeing is the time to repurpose reinfecting people for it. And it sounds like conspiracy theory, when you say out loud, it sounds like you're saying the flat something. But it's improved. We've noticed that people who are infected with COVID-19, being taken two different cluster areas. And they've been set out by military drones and then picked back up again after a certain amount of time about three days and then taken to another area. And these are COVID-19 positive persons and then suddenly that particular area has COVID-19. So they are purposely infecting their own people, which ridiculous enough has also infected their troops to an extent of detrimental damage. But they feel as though the more in dire need Myanmar's the more the international community has no right to deny help.

Host  11:55

Right. So you mentioned this was a two pronged approach. On the one hand inside the country, they're trying to beat the people down forced them into submission, as they've done over the past seven decades, suggesting that it's just futile to resist and that a life full of terror and darkness is better than no life at all. And on the other hand, the military is trying to show the international community that things are so dire in the country that you know, basically, they're the only actor in town who is in a position to respond to this overwhelming needs. So outside governmental and organizations, they need to work with them in order to get anything done. Even though of course, you know, they're the ones that are actively creating this very devastation in the first place. So how would you say these two approaches are working? Like, like, Are people actually being beaten into submission in this way? And how is the international community responding?

Meredith  12:48

So in regards to the people of Vietnam, from what I've seen from for over the period of time, I've lived in it not too long, but it's still a long period of time. They are fighters every single last one of them. And they weren't given easily. But there are situations where people are beginning to become hopeless. They have a power within them, because of their strengths and their history that the understand they have to get going. They have to, and they have to fight for what they believe is right. And for what is right. In regards to the COVID-19 situation, kind of disease spreading to situation. It's taking a toll in a manner where we have a phone call from somebody, they need oxygen, they need assistance. And then two days later, when we get items or three days later, when we get them, they passed away. So they're becoming hopeless in the sense where they realize even though people are trying to help them. It's not great work in a way. Obviously, we know that it will work, we know that we will try to help. But you can't help but feel helpless when your family is dying around you. And in terms of the international community, I think we've seen I think people see that the legitimising them to an extent and I think that is a problem. I think that if international organizations want to find identities on the ground, they have to go through the means of external contractors or external persons, external consultants, because then they are able to work around a situation which could be very tense for an international organization whereas somebody who's already on ground and has the ability to act and less of a restraints manner. They are then able to help new people But what what comes with that even is the legalization of donations, its immediate service. Now, so many people are not able to take even supplies to their own family across town, because at the time of donation, so you find a lot of people are organizing groups going underground, trying to get medicine and foods to people who are trying to contact them, and round out mountains. And this is something that international organizations might not be able to do. Because it's such a spiderweb of networks, they might not be able to find a way to kind of put themselves into place.

Host  15:46

Yeah, that makes sense. So for those humanitarian organizations and the international community at large, what can they do to support the Burmese people now, given how complicated the situation is,

Meredith  15:58

certainly, as I said, trying to find those who are trustworthy on grounds and able to act as an external factor, but the main ways without putting funds and grounds is consistently raising awareness, consistently trying to do platform D legitimize attacking doors, ruling and showing the devastation that they have hot about taunting young, showing the fact that they have been in power for six months, and people have been putting to a place where more people have died in the past six months, and they have over the past three years, even with the political instability that we all know is very complicated with them. Even with the longest ongoing civil war in the world, there has been less casualties over a period of time than just the six months. And that should be a testament to their leadership. They're allowing their people to die their souls. And they are putting a word into play, which is consistent, which is genocide, and they are forcing genocide onto their own people. And it's no longer about specific ethnicities, it's no longer about specific areas. It's the entirety of Malmo, as some academics had said previously, obviously, the calculating around 10 billion might die. This is extreme numbers. But if the capital stayed in how're, we could be looking at around 10 million in two years.

Host  17:39

So there's long been this need for humanitarian work and foreign aid in Myanmar. But it's never quite then as drastic as we're seeing now, by just the carnage and destruction being unleashed by this military. And as you said, a figure of 10 million deaths out of a population total of about 55 million. In just two years. I that's just really hard to contemplate what it looks like and what it implies. And I agree with you, I think genocide would be an appropriate term. So I know you've been involved in humanitarian work and aid of various kinds in Myanmar for several years, you've worked in so many different capacities, which we'll get into later. How do you find what's happening now different from what you were doing before, either in the type of needs you see, or perhaps similar needs that have to be addressed in a different way?

Meredith  18:30

I would have to say, before, there was always a level of understanding, there was always trying to sraith of cooperation, certainly, with a challenger. By myself, again, I'm lucky I have friends who were in the town door contacts who are in the middle. And I do understand a lot of people within the town do not want this to carry on in the way that it is. So we do have to be in a term, not sympathetic but understanding of a place where they are being potentially held hostage. But before you will find people who were happy to cooperate, they were happy to help you send aid even to you controlled areas. And there was always a level of understanding when it came to. I'm bringing medical aid and support that meant to them okay, wherever you need to go, please go. Now. I'm bringing medical support you might need to take it's a situation where you're being punished for trying to help even the smallest ways. And it's bizarre in a sense, because they're teaching everyone his enemy. He would normally detain someone for bringing supplies to your enemy. Take this treason or something whereas this case they are detaining people for taking supplies and aid to someone down the street to someone's grandmother. And that paints a picture that they now consider everyone within Myanmar. So the difference between the eight that we have to get we used to have to do is certainly in regards to safety, just astronomically different, we now have to think, okay, there's a group of young girls between the ages of 12 years old and 15 years old, we need to get the skills to a safe house because they might be kidnapped and assaulted. And when it came to victims of assault, for example, before, we knew that we could get into a safe place, we knew we get medical aid. Now we're in a situation where they have a target on that they've been assaulted. And they survived. It's a situation where we have to get them basically across the border immediately, because we don't know how long they will survive in the rounds of walking down the streets or being in capacity of their location as before, because they have this target. When it came to medical aid and security, we didn't have to think about every single factor. We didn't have to think, okay, we're going to dislocation between states, we need basic first aid kits, we need some medications. Now, we basically need a fully equipped ambulance and fully equipped trucks for every single medication. Because we don't know how many people are injured. We don't know how many people are sick. It's everything it was before, times by 10. Isn't, isn't seen.

Host  21:50

Yeah, I don't know how you even begin to think about how to operate in those conditions.

Meredith  21:58

It's difficult, but I think that, you know, when you see what's happening around you, and when you understand that so many people who you know, and so many people that you have met across times are being affected that you have to consider every single possibility and everything you can into getting those supplies and getting those items and getting that support to those people. And you have to be creative, I have to say.

Host  22:28

Interesting. So you talk about how the time it is making the situation infinitely worse. Yet, you also suggested how to look at the situation from the perspective of individual soldiers, which I find interesting. Getting a bit more granular here. In a recent interview with an odd podcast, you mentioned that you estimated there were only around 90,000 fighting men in the Burmese military, and that their numbers have long been inflated. So how did you land on that smaller number

Meredith  22:58

from general estimates? And also from what I've seen, but again, I also have information given to me from reliable sources. We could say the number fluctuates, we can't I wouldn't say I will stick by those numbers. I would say it goes from 120,000 to 90,000. between those two sections, because the amount of people they don't report who are dead. The amount of people they don't report who have defected. It's, you know, they don't need to be transparent. They don't have any thing to gain from that. They don't need to say to people, oh, well, we lost a few soldiers. They, they are also before they were factoring in or police, including traffic police. So I don't know about you, but I wouldn't necessarily classify traffic police officer as fighting military.

Host  23:57

I would agree with you about that. So if indeed the military forces are really that small, what action would you encourage by those leading the resistance?

Meredith  24:07

I would encourage people to be very small about their actions, because it doesn't take much to purchase outside help. And it will take more than a few trips to get a lot more soldiers on their site. So when it comes to thinking about numbers, even though I say it's very low, and much lower than they had stated, we still have to think about what they could do with those numbers. If they can push a group who are rebelling against system into they've lost everything. The key factors are always manage your surroundings and manage what their surroundings Think about, for example, where they always go back to, if they always go back to NATO, for example, there's always a reason. If they fall back to Mandalay, for example, there's always a reason for that. So focusing on the key areas with a consistently try to keep themselves safe is important. Because you have to think, well, how can I use that to my advantage, for example, not enticing violence, but enticing support to other areas, if you know they're going to be in a specific location, you can then utilize that your knowledge and move around and get support to different locations. I would definitely say to those who are, for example, in rebelling organizations, to think about, not just their locations, but also the movement tracks of why they are consistently going back to you and gone, why they are consistently staying in the main highway sections of Aikido and, and just really think about how you utilize the knowledge that you get,

Host  26:15

right. And this is, of course, asking people who six months ago were from completely different walks of life, who never would have thought they would ever have to think about the kinds of things we're talking about now, to suddenly have to become military strategic, and to learn how to just survive. And you emphasize that one of the key things here is to be smart. And I'm sure being smart with quotation marks around that is easier said than done, especially when the learning curve is so steep, and the stakes are so high. So from your vantage point, how have you seen people responding? Generally speaking, have they been smart from the get go? Or did they have to learn a costly lesson first. And in general, what are you seeing in terms of how the resistance is or perhaps is not being able to improvise, innovate, learn, etc.

Meredith  27:08

So there's two sections to this, I would have to say, firstly, as I said, before, Myanmar people are very resilient. They have the older generation who lived through so much already. And very, luckily, in a way they have those people explained to them, well, this is what we used to have to do. Let's do this again. So when, you know, the internet went off, when comms went down, they realized, okay, here are the ways we can communicate with each other without getting in trouble. These are the ways we can go to someone else's house without getting caught. They had people who had been through it previously, obviously, we're COVID killing off so many elderly people, they're getting to the point where they're losing that vital knowledge, which is going to be very necessary again. And it was very, not an amazing to watch Rosie, in a different way. It was shocking to watch, obviously, the extreme violence that happened or was bringing, but also how it fueled people to be one to consistently show a level of solidarity. And to understand that if somebody was on the streets, they were going to be in your home, and you don't care who they are, they can see in your home. And that level of solidarity is something you don't see. And in terms of what is being done 30 people who kind of were taking advantage of the situation that either the military or against the military, and creating their own little sections or pockets of chaos. And I think it's really important for people who are rebelling or rather resisting to think about when they utilize the knowledge that they learned somewhere. For example, there was a lot of talk about how to make shoddy combs and things. This is not a smart thing to do. Going back to previous this, this, this, this is a way to get yourself and others killed. And something we saw, actually, about three months ago, was people who had called up the police saying there was a husband would warrant in a house and they had rigged up a bomb. And he got the capital very, very frustrated. And then it became instead of one time you could have possibly taken up two officers. It became a situation where officers were smashing down doors. The military was breaking down doors, getting into people's houses, smashing their windows, dragging people out by their hair or drawing people out not close, with guns pointing in their face and pointing guns in their children's faces. So when I say be smart, I think I what I mean is also think about the repercussions of the action that you're putting in. Is it really worth what you're trying to do? And if it's not, thank you.

Host  30:22

I see what you mean. Now, you mentioned the solidarity that you witnessed in the early stages, how people came together and support each other, there was this kind of unquestioned, understanding that if a stranger was outside running for their life, past your house, and you were inside, you would open your door and provide safe shelter. And I've heard so many stories like that several guests have shared similar personal experiences with me just on this podcast platform. Can you comment where you think we are now six months into the coup? on this question of solidarity and unity? This is something to me that seems to naturally gel at the beginning in the country's collective anger in response to the coup. But it becomes harder to maintain this, the longer the situation drags on. So what are you now seeing in terms of people continuing to be united and be in solidarity? Or are there some cracks that you're seeing starting to form at the themes,

Meredith  31:18

I think there are definitely some cracks coming through, especially with COVID. A lot of people are taking too. And rightly so. Being wary of others. And while there is still a huge level of solidarity, and if, for example, someone sees the police coming down the street, they will want everyone on that street. However, six months down the line, you have to be a bit tired. Let's put it that way. Everyone's a little bit tired. And when it comes to those who aren't mining, either way, they are causing a situation which can be potentially very dangerous for others. And also, we have the pro military, person to artist in various different areas. For example, they went down last, I think, about two months ago. And a few weeks ago, some current military persons paid some of these potential chaos makers to set up to not have to personally attacked a lady who was an ethnic minority. And so what I mean by these people being chaotic is primary check that if you don't rely either way, you either Shut up, you stay inside, or you go out, and you want that initial, what they would say, thrill of the beginning, and they want to play war, let's say, putting it in very frank words.

Host  32:58

So how do you envision that solidarity going forward? Since this is not looking like it's going to be ending anytime soon? We don't know what will be needed to keep that sense of unity intact, especially as the situation extends out months and perhaps even years. So what do you think of the possibilities for continuing that sense of solidarity and unity? in whatever form,

Meredith  33:20

I think it will still be apparent. As I said before, Myanmar's resilient country with a lot of resilient people. And certainly, the crew has shown a lot of people that there was a reason why, for example, the egos were fighting, there was a reason why the ethnic minorities, were saying they were being treated wrong, because they were. And there's a reason why people were saying that there was anger inside. And I think that that in itself has brought a lot of people into the shining light of solidarity, because they understand a little bit now of what everyone else was going through. For those who are in, minorities were going through and they understand that they should take a look. And think about the situation surrounding them. And I think certainly going forward, people will be standing with one another. If it carries on for many years, we'll see another situation where history repeats itself course. But for now, I would say they're still going to try and help each other as much as possible. In regards to curve it is become a lot more difficult when people have to be more wary of each other. And with CDM is also being sold off. Basically they have bounties on their heads and people becoming more desperate. There is a level of distrust between people. Someone could say they're coming over to help a CDM worker but the reality is they're telling the police where they are so that they can get the bounty so they can feed their own family. And that's something that needs to be noted as well. It's not, not all of it comes out of malicious nature, it's becoming, it's coming out of pure necessity for a lot of people.

Host  35:12

For sure, sure, that's probably not unintentional, given how the tatmadaw set up a dynamic so that people are trapped and have no choice but to turn on each other in order to survive. I mean, that's right out of their playbook these last number of years. So, yeah, we've looked a bit at where things could go in the future. What if we look now backwards for a minute and recap how things have developed since February, there were those initial widespread nonviolent protests, but as we know, they were quashed after a month or two by the military, who responded with these mass killings, and assassinations and broad daylight. That in turn, as we know, led to the formation of the PDF, the uwg networks, the creation of the Federal Army, ethnic armed groups becoming more active, etc. So now we're seeing the growing potential for a violent response. What are your thoughts on the evolution of the armed resistance in Myanmar now?

Meredith  36:09

I would say, in terms of more and more groups coming about, it's a good and a bad thing. The more hands The road to take facilities, and the more hands there are to take resources, it becomes more complicated. What we do need to think about is putting your faith and solidarity into different NGOs. They're starting to lose a little faith now because a lot of people are saying they didn't do enough. And so they're now looking towards PDF. They're now looking towards the Federal Army. But something we have to remember about EDF as, as much as they are heroes, we have to remember these are people who have no prior military experience, they have no training most of them. Some of them obviously, are defectors from trapdoor, some of them are persons who are trained from CEOs. But we do still have to remember the majority are basically kids, they're around the ages of 19, or 20. And the university students and hugely admirable as it is that they are living their lives down on just to try and help as much as they can, we have to remember how much support we give them is how much danger they will be put in as well. And we have to think about is it really worth putting hundreds of 20 year olds or 19 year olds in almost undeniable danger than it would have been to support the very well trained and very capable groups that were already in place. And it's almost as though the certainly years within Myanmar already creating you can potentially creates more problems. There's already been tensions with territories and PDF, fractures needing to be named after specific areas because of territory issues. And then there's also issues surrounding the fact that, you know, a lot of young girls were already quite strapped for what they have. And they're trying to help PDF out as well in certain areas. And so they're using their own items, or they're using their own funds. And so while we have to support their actions, we also have to realize that there's a possibility down the line where it could cause problems. Or if, for example, someone within the town managed to infiltrate PDF, because a lot of problems for PDF persons, and they can potentially, and a lot of these students lives. And so we really do have to think about every factor. This is no way saying anything against PDF. But we do have to think about is it worth supporting them unconditionally? Or is it worth saying to them, perhaps you should join this particular armed group that has very highly skilled professionals who have been enabled to train you to a capacity where you wouldn't be necessarily walking into danger? That's something

Host  39:30

right, so you're speaking about how organizations can most skillfully target their support. Zooming back a bit, can you address the more general question of armed aggression versus a non violent approach? Because in the early stages, there was this more unified non violent response by protesters that was just trying to win over even the police. But as we know, it couldn't continue simply because the military started to come out on the streets and openly kill people. We know about more Then 80 people that were killed in bego on a single day. And we also know about the terror in the length of a siege, and all the other horrific things that happened back then this raises the question of where it all goes from here. As you know, there are those in the international community who strongly support a strictly non violent protest and warn that an escalation of violence will turn me and Martin to another Syria, and that it's going to be harder to get international support if there's violence on both sides. But you know, personally speaking, I don't know that many people in the country that are still advocating a strictly nonviolent approach, given what is going on now. So this is not to say that everyone there is involved in some degree of a violent escalation, far from it. But the reality is simply that not many Burmese that I know of that are in the country still believe that a strictly nonviolent approach will work. However, as I say, we're still hearing from a number of international actors, that strict adherence to non violence at all costs, is the core of a successful long term movement. So what are your thoughts on this?

Meredith  41:12

So I have a few things to say on that matter. Firstly, in regards to the international community seeing, staying on violence, it's very easy to say that when you're sitting in a position of safety, it's easy to say, don't be violent, when you're not the one being hit in the face. It's, it's easy to say don't be violent when you're not seeing your daughter being shot in the head. I have to say, it's a point of, obviously, I agree, to an extent, I think, if we had everyone out in the streets being violent, if your kids and it'd be a mess, even more, so masteries. But in the other hand, I obviously have no right to say to a group of people who are literally watching their children be killed, saying Don't be violent, be better than them. It's not necessarily easy for that, to be said to them, I think. And in terms of those who are saying remain non violent, I do know a few people within that law, who actually do still say, try not to be violence, because they say this is a point of almost pride, saying we are best and then we don't have to resort to their actions. But obviously, the majority do want to not take revenge, but defend themselves, and rightly so they have every right to defend themselves. And they have every right to defend their family. If somebody comes into your house and points a gun at you any other country in the world, you'd be allowed to take them either to the police station reveals children's rights. And I don't really see the difference in comparison. One thing I will say is a lot of people willing young mothers and understanding where people are realizing if we did continuously bring violence to the table every time they did, their outgunned there, to an extent outnumbered in terms of trained persons and up, and they understand that they wouldn't necessarily stand a chance. And it becomes to a point where they they know that it was the more people to have to take down a group, just a single group, instead of taking the whole system down, is it worth taking down 100 people, if 1000 people something like this, I would say

Host  43:33

with the example you gave of someone coming into your home and trying to attack you, and noting that in other countries, one would be able to alert the police to take care of it. what you're getting at is that some people are oblivious to their privilege. It's easy to give this kind of moral advice to people about how to face their danger. When you yourself don't have to face something similar and you you would have no idea how to act if you did. For me personally, it's been a learning experience to reflect on my life outside of Myanmar, in light of what people are going through there. And that I have this sense of safety in my day that you know, I often just kind of take for granted, I've never had to worry whether the police or military will suddenly turn their weapons on me. But not only this, it's also caused me to reflect on what I've come to think of this invisible social contract that has operated in my life and in the communities where I've lived without ever having to think about it until now. So in other words, as long as I obey the law, and assuming I'm paying taxes, I enjoy this degree of presumed safety in my own life in return. This is safeguarded by the police, who can employ authorize violence on my behalf if it's needed to ensure the continued safety of me and my community. So the situation in Myanmar has actually made me aware for the first time that I'm complicit in any authorized use of force by the police. In other words, they saves me the burden. And let's be honest, they saved me the humanity, of having to take on that role myself. And it hasn't really been until this situation that I've recognized my privilege in this regard, and how flipped on its head, this contract has become in Myanmar. So similarly, I would hope that will meaning people would take a step back and consider the reality and the privilege of their own situation, before making some of these pompous moral declarations about how the Burmese people should or should not be responding to their life or death situations from their own positions of safety and of privilege.

Meredith  45:36

I think, you know, obviously, what you said is kind of hitting the nail on the head. And since a lot of people have that safety, kind of embedded in them from the outside. Whereas in Myanmar, viously, we don't have that. They don't have that moment. And not to think necessarily, but certainly in the position where, when I tried to say it was putting into context of someone coming into your house, even if they weren't coming into your house, they were just a random person and threatening your life. Everywhere else in the world, you're about to lay down, lay down there. And I think there's a, there's a huge problem. And it's rather problematic for a lot of people in the international community to say, you need to be better than them, you need to stay nonviolent, you need to understand that you can't retaliate, when it's easy for those who are sat with a very constructed military and very constructed police force, to see that when they realize that they have this power behind them. But they're not necessarily stepping in yet, because they can't because of invisible sanctions as such. In this position, when it comes to the international community getting involved, obviously, there's so many things that they can do, but saying to people giving them advice, saying Don't be violent, and it isn't the best advice, right?

Host  47:10

Yeah, yeah. And as you were talking, a thought experiment came to mind. So say you were in a community where the police force was functioning more or less as it should. And there was some criminal and neighborhood that was causing a serious problem. In the context of what I've referred to as this invisible social contract, as I described earlier, the community would definitely expect the police to take whatever measures were necessary to protect them, even if it meant using lethal force against that criminal on their behalf. So one might hope that they would not have to do this. But if that was the only way to keep the community safe, I think that only a committed lifelong pacifist would really take issue. So Well, okay, you know, if one were to take that same thought experiment and apply it today, in Myanmar, you have not just one criminal, but you have roaming bands of marauders, causing all kinds of Mayhem and destruction, except the police will not only stop them, they're actually on the very side supporting these criminals. And to stop that gang of criminals from causing even more harm, the community would have every right to take matters into their own hands by whatever means necessary. And so if someone in another country who takes for granted that the police force Well, generally act in good faith, we're to lecture someone in Myanmar as to how that person should or shouldn't act in that desperate situation, based on their own safety based on their own privilege and their own reality. I mean, I consider that offensive. And really, it's quite hypocritical. Just overall, I think it's inherently problematic to try and draw any parallels between one's life in a relatively stable country, and anywhere else, and what the Burmese people are now facing. So that's why the real critical thing right now, I think, is simply to try to listen.

Meredith  49:00

Yeah. And I think also, something to think of some people before when the protests were kind of, at the height, people were comparing the situation to the Black Lives Matter movement in America. And I said to everyone, you know, there's no comparing situations, there's no comparison. Somebody's pain isn't comparative to someone else's. I mean, a genocide is a comparative to something else. You can't you just shouldn't compare the two. But just comparing protests themselves. Obviously, people were saying, Oh, well, the Black Lives Matter movement. Some of them were violence and they didn't get killed. Like we're being children. We're not violent. Again, it's not comparison. Because one, first of all, you have to encounter situations that differ so rapidly. Myanmar is a developing country. It's not a first world country. It's it's a place that was before Getting into the realms of being an up and coming throughout the country. America is a festival country, undeniably, it has a lot of problems, it has a lot of things that I don't know about, obviously being British, but you know, even Britain has their problems. But what I can say is, the protesters in America have the right to feel safe, and have the right to feel as though they can walk down the street and saying something is wrong and not expect to be shocked. Whereas in Myanmar, because the crew, you know, obviously, they have that, right. But it's not rented to them. It's a situation where, you know, if you speak up, you probably get killed. And so when it comes into that, you just have they, they're both undeniably tragic in every single form. But when you start to compare a developed country, with a developing country, and get into a lot of nitpicking that doesn't necessarily, it's not necessarily advantages to it.

Host  51:06

Right here, thanks for that. That's very well put. So I also want to mention something else that came from the same on our podcast, which, by the way, I definitely suggest listeners should check out it's really another great platform that's featuring stories and interviews about what's going on in Myanmar. Anyway, you mentioned that you became concerned about how violence is now being normalized. in Myanmar. You cited examples of bombs going off throughout the country and people no longer being surprised by it. Can you elaborate on your concerns about this normalization of violence in the country?

Meredith  51:42

Well, there's there's a few parts to what I meant in that particular section was, first of all, the international community now, not even hearing about most of it. That's something that is vitally tragic. And the normality being forced on young people, because they understand no one's taking notice anymore. There was three people shock yesterday. Did anyone hear about that? Probably not. There was a person shot in Dublin the day before? Did you hear about that, for example? Probably not. And so when it gets to the news, not getting out there, people are forced into a sec. So to frame of understanding that this has to be normal, no one cares. So it has to be normal, right? And, well, the international community, center, sensationalizes News. And perhaps the wrong news out there, there has to be new sources that are more willing to take the information that's happening every single day, every single day, which again, is quite impossible, but as much as they can to get it out. So everyone in every other country understands that this is not over. This is something that people are living with every single day still. And just because it wasn't 100 people in two days or one day, it's still one or two people every day, if not more. And minutes, it becomes more normalized, by just people either either ignoring it, or by people who are kind of forcing it to be more more, because that's the only way they can cope is the moment that we lose a bit of the battle.

Host  53:43

Thank you for that, that's very well put. And it also gets to the heart of why we're doing this conversation with you specifically, but also our overall platform goal, which is to continue to get the accurate word out both the headlines as well as the details that are behind them. Now, my next question might come out sounding somewhat silly, but I do mean it sincerely. And what I'd like to know is your personal feelings towards the target. Ah, because you're describing soldiers that have caused this untold suffering to those closest to you, you've seen the destruction they've brought on the country and the people that you love. And so I'm curious, do you see them as a kind of evil force that just needs to be entirely eradicated? Or more as like misguided individuals that it's possible somehow in some way to reach? Do you hold out any hope for their humanity? Or is there just kind of a wall of hatred at the moment that at this point is simply too hard to see beyond?

Meredith  54:42

So I keep kind of seeing this, but there's a few ways to put this. I firstly, I don't hate the temperature. I don't hate everyone in it. I hate men online. I hate him because he's the leader. I hate the puppets that he has inside. But we have to, certainly I, myself as an outsider, I have to try and see things from every perspective. And while I am obviously aligning in a certain way, and specifically stating publicly my hatred for their actions. I can't say that I think that should be completely eradicated. I think that the organization itself should be for everyone within that proposition. I think there are a lot of good people who are trapped and held hostage still, within the technical, it's very hard to see that, and I probably will get an even hate.  I think some people do a lot of people who know me very well, you know, the thing, I love to meet him for a very long time. And there's a lot of people who are in the top maitrise, kind of a pinnacle and way, sorry, not to go to off topic. But mitula, before there was a lot of trouble saying you, obviously you will know about the 2008 and the 2013 issues. And after that there was a sense of already kind of combined solidarity there. And so when the clue was in its initial forms, a lot of the place, a lot of the people who were within the tatmadaw upset, let's not let it happen to me. And they tried to help as much as possible, a personal friend of mine, who was a police chief, he was saying, basically, we're not going to let this happen. If anybody who's on my police force starts to act in the way that they've been wanted to, we're going to have a problem. And that's something that should be noted, there's people who are trying to stop the actions in the orders, or rather, the orders being put into actions. Obviously, they could do more, we could say they could do more. But you know, they're in a position where they can be killed, their daughter could be killed, their child could be their grandchildren could be killed, their wife could be killed, or even some I even heard also a friend of mine, actually, who was in town or passed away, due to obvious causes. And he was being his wife was being threatened, and she wasn't being threatened with death. Let me put it bluntly. And that's a position where you have to understand a little bit is an excuse not true. If he had held a gun towards a protester, that would still not be an excuse, but he hadn't, obviously, did he condone the actions at the time. But, you know, he, he died because he stood up against them. And that's something that I want people to know, there are still some people within the Capitol trying to help and some people who are trying to stop this, they might not have the power behind them yet. And they might realize that they can do more good from within the organization itself. But it's certainly a network that needs to be taken down, it needs to be obsolete, and it needs to have the damage done needs to be gone. There needs to be a new organization put into place when there's a new government. That's the easiest way.

Host  58:26

No, no, that's great. I really appreciate the nuance and the perspective that you're bringing to this. I think it's very important for listeners, how you were able to break down these certain kinds of monolithic ways of thinking about the Burmese military and how it's being characterized. Not only that, but I think it's so important to understand this kind of, like real, everyday human aspects of what we're seeing. And to continue a little bit, if you don't mind on this philosophical bent, you describe the situation where the circumstances and the conditions have created this prevalence of a real evil that many Burmese now find themselves facing. Some of these soldiers might just be there because of family or financial circumstances, or maybe from wanting to serve their country in some positive way. But they're now being tasked with the unthinkable. And while I in no way want to equate the two sides, I would argue that this Manifestation of Evil, it's now created a somewhat similar dynamic for many that are considering joining PDF. Many of those I've spoke to are people that have held to nonviolent principles their entire life, and are now being faced with this sudden and terrible decision about whether or not they will need to undertake some kind of armed resistance to win back their freedom or otherwise submit to something much worse than they could ever have imagined. And so we're looking at all sides of this human drama and with This nuanced view that you so beautifully articulated, we're looking at the prevalence of evil that has taken over in some major way. And I don't know if you can even comment or reflect on this now, because you're in the middle of so much, you're in the middle of the process. And when you're in the middle of something like this, there does have to be some kind of detachment, just to get through what's in front of you. So you mentioned to me before this interview started, that you hadn't slept in three days, I can't even imagine what that must be like, in normal times. And these are anything but normal times. So I'm wondering if you have any philosophical thoughts or reflections about what it means for real evil to be present in the world. This is a dynamic that everyone in Myanmar is forced to contend with. But without an obvious positive way out. So I think many of us listening to you speak have probably never had to confront real evil on this massive scale, like the Burmese people have to face now.

Meredith  1:01:08

So when we discussed the kinds of the evil aspects of the top middle, you know, it's very easy for some people to again, I don't like drawing comparisons, but it is easy. And I heard some people drawing comparisons between them. And the Nazis. People say, Oh, well, the Nazis said, they were just and I say, there's not really a place to compare those two, again, because the Nazis had their time in place. And they had a tragedy that they were responsible for. Whereas, and also to large faults, this is singular as one country and to their own people. And it's not a comparative, that needs to be true, because they are causing a tragedy of their own. They don't need to have that credit, let's say are being compared to an infamous tragedy. What I will say is, when we say someone is just following orders, in the terms of the town drunk, when I when I tried to humanize them in that kind of context, I, I would never say they were just following orders, because it doesn't take much to turn around and get away from that situation. Obviously, with their family being held hostage, or with themselves being held hostage, it becomes difficult. But when you're faced with an innocent person, when you're faced with an innocent village, and you were told to burn it down, and you know, the children side of it, there should be more humanity, inside of you to know, my wife, my child wants this. And then maybe I can get back in time before they find out, I do do this. So for those who say that the time to resolve waters, they're kind of the humanizing them in a way that I couldn't possibly I take the individuals and I understand the individuals points. When we look at the evil that they created around them, this was almost like the, the dark moon or something, we realize that they have purposely created such a brutal atmosphere around them, in hopes that it would create a fear for retaliation. So so many people with intangible on the other side, obviously, as I was saying, there's a lot of people who, you know, we have to humanize, we have to understand that that situation. But then there's so many there with who I can't even explain how horrendous they must be for what they do. The amount of assaults that will happen will cause the amount of children I have had to try and find. And I know and have found to have been assaulted by capital soldiers. There is evil within them. And when I say that needs to be eradicated, that needs to be an added radication every single time. But we can't forget the humans within it. So when I when I use that comparison, rather when I say people are using the comparison, and that's us, you know, again, it's giving them something that it shouldn't be put onto the table because again, compared tragedies. But when people use the term they're following orders, is it an order to kidnap an 11 year old girl and hold her for several days and then burn her to death because you get assaulted her? That does not. So the Evil Within the chat window, it needs to be eradicated and people are noticing that to more of an extent before so many People who are quite patriotic Mitzi, they used to think a lot of this is fake. What we're hearing in the news is it's not right. It's just people trying to frame. And now they're realizing, oh, it was true. We need to stand up against this. So the supporters they had, who were very, very low in percentage already are turning on their sides and going, No, you were actually doing this for a long time lied to us. And so again, it's uniting everyone in this not born of hatred, but both of understanding and people who now understand what they had been focusing on before an illusion. And those who already knew, I think, welcome. physic let's, let's try and stand together. It's as bad as it has been, I have to say, the only shred of good that has come out that there's so many people recognizing the plight second happening, and so many people recognizing that they need to stand with everyone. And so it's not a needed evil. It's just an evil. But out of this evil, there is a tiny shred of light.

Host  1:06:17

Right, right, you referenced a bit ago how you acknowledge that you are a foreigner, who's become involved in all this. In acknowledging your background and your place in the struggle as a foreigner, you could have chosen to support the Burmese people while you yourself were in a place of safety as most of us have. And you could still do that at any moment if you choose to. So I have to ask, why have you chosen this path and to be so public about it?

Meredith  1:06:46

an easy answer to that is I've lived in Myanmar for over a quarter of my life, I would never ever claim to be from Yemen. That's ridiculous. But I have lived there for such a long period of time, people have welcomed me with open arms, I was in locations where people had nothing yet they would get angry at me if I didn't come over for dinner. They gave me things when I was struggling, people took care of me when I broke my leg. And the the sense of family is very strong. So I know I'm sure and I know I'm an outsider. But Myanmar is like home to me. And I know a lot of people say that. But I have people I consider sisters or helping people I consider brothers. And I found more than I could ever think. And I found not just a home, but people I loved. And so to me to turn for me to turn my back and say, you know, I'm saying I don't need to, I don't need to stand up anymore, is something I can use any kind of ounce of help I can get, I have to get it. Because it's the same as if it was happening down the road. If you saw your neighbor's house on fire, you would go and help them. If you saw your family in trouble, you'd help. And to me, that's what it's like. And so being public about it, certainly, even though the constraints you might have I know that I can be in a bad situation, but not so much as a person who is nationally male. And so therefore, anything they want to say, I have that privilege, being able to see it and see it without as much worry. And so it's vitally important. Those of us who have lived in Myanmar, those of us who think of it as a stand up and say, This isn't right, this is what's happening. We need to stand up and anybody who wants to say something, but is too scared for their family, if they want to see it through, and you have that almost obligation to do so. So am I putting myself in trouble? To an extent? Yes. But not as much as this would be? And then another way to think of it is would they do it to you? I think so.

Host  1:09:26

So you've been involved in advocacy and aid organizations before this. But for me personally, this current level of engagement that I'm involved in, it's a bit new for me. And it's led me to reflect on the realization that you don't really know yourself or for that matter who your friends are, until the crisis really hits. But what we're looking at now is not a personal crisis. It's a major national and even regional crisis. So over the past few months, this has caused me to reflect on what it is that turned on inside me to decide to care and be involved in the way that I have. I think that most people will turn away to avoid a fire or a gruesome car accident, you yourself gave this example of a neighbor's house on fire and wanting to run toward it. But I would argue that actually a very select few will indeed run towards these disasters instead of running away from them. Actually, you know, I think it might be most correct to say that many would fall into the category of voyeuristically watching the unfolding disaster, from a place of distance, fascinate fascination. But as for you, you're definitely one of those people that is running towards the disaster, and doing so only with an intention of wanting to help. And so given my own reflection along those lines, I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are about what goes on within the mind to choose to run towards a fire instead of away from it, when you see that it's raging.

Meredith  1:11:01

I think I'm in a disadvantaged position to say on that, because, you know, my work previously, and what I've done before, it's similar to being trained to do so. I think, in a different time, those who haven't had the experiences I have had, maybe would have chosen a different route. And I think that is equally important. I think a lot of people have different mindsets, in terms of what they can do to help what they are mentally and physically capable to help. And for those who have those who aren't trained in specific sections, they, they might feel that they can do better, perhaps offering smaller quantities at their time, or maybe not getting involved, because they might not meant to be able to cope with what is happening, they might not be able to stay stable enough in that kind of easy way to not be able to put a strong front on, and they might see that they would be causing more harm than good. Which is also completely understandable. If, for example, someone gets involved in a situation, which could make them break down and cry. That's understandable. And we have to be understanding of that. But it could potentially cause distress to those who are trying to help as well. And so for those who run towards fire, for those who run away, I equally understand both. And I think those who the advice I have certainly for those who run towards it is think about how you were trying to help the situation and think about how you can help the situation. Remember, it's very complicated. And if you can help from outside, that means you have all the support from certainly myself in my organization if you want to get involved. But for those of you who for those who wanted to jump over and try and help out when they get there, there's a lot of things that come in fact, more people, again, are so determined to try and help you to help foreigners especially and they, they would see a foreigner and they would say okay, well, you don't need to do it. You can come and stay with me that welcoming people there that understanding that it might be hard for you to understand the situation or be able to offer help in every capacity. And so really do. Think about the situation, think how you can help think about what you are, you feel comfortable with what you feel capable. If you put yourself in discomforted position, then you could be causing harm to yourself and to others. And that's really important. Even I had someone who thought they wouldn't be helping if they taught an online class next week. I said to them, that's helping more than you will. That's giving a group of young adults a bit of hope, and something to look forward to a possibility of getting exposure, you could be helping them get out of this situation. So don't ever think that even just a miniscule amount of your time isn't important. If you're in the UK, if you're in America, or if you're in any other country and you're not in your mind, you feel like you want help. And you think, Oh, I can only help if I'm on Brown. That's not true. There's more help given outside of Myanmar. Obviously, there's a lot of need for people on ground. But a priority is raising awareness, offering education and support, offering support through supplies, fundraising, all of these things are vital right now. So when we put it in the terms that running towards the fire right now, I would say Maybe pick up a fire extinguisher.

Host  1:15:04

Yeah, that's a beautiful answer. And it's a really great way to break down that metaphor. Because certainly if there's a serious car accident, and if everyone wins over to a car, it might even be something that complicates the rescue. And so you need someone to control the situation, you need someone that's putting up crime scene tape around and preventing other people from entering the area, etc. There's so many tasks here, or let's say there's a fire and everyone goes running into that burning building, that's also not going to be helpful at all. So we're not saying that it's like this binary chores choice, where either you run into the fire or you do nothing, because there's a lot of nuanced things that one can do to help in these kinds of situations. And so I keep coming back to this, which is something that I've also seen so many Burmese people on the ground learn as well. In the first couple months of the protests, many of the young people especially, they felt like they needed to be out on the streets, they needed to make their presence known. But over time, many learned that given who they were, their skill set was and what could they could offer, they didn't actually physically need to be on the street in order to be a part of the resistance and help the people, there's so many other things they can do. So to return to the burning house metaphor, I think that for those that want to choose to run towards the fire, there are so many different ways to do it without actually running into the fire. They can help in different ways, depending on what their skill set is there capacity to help with the actual fire out or whether they're in the front or the center, behind the scenes, whether they did something before the fire that supported the firefighters or maybe something positive and supportive after the fire had already been extinguished. As you mentioned for yourself in one example, one might have a career in this kind of aid, and it might just be who you are. But for others of us, we really don't know which role we'll be taking on until we're thrown into that situation. For example, if someone had asked me six months ago about all this, how I would be involved, I wouldn't have known in my heart of hearts, how I would have responded, I wouldn't have known what level i'd engage at or exactly what I'd be doing. And, you know, I've learned tremendously about myself in this process and the choices I've made. And all this has resulted in my reflection, which I asked a moment ago, and I wish I asked myself continuously. Why have I made these particular choices? Why do other people make other choices? How does something inside us just switch on where we suddenly just decide to really care, even at the expense of our own comfort or to take on a greater burden to help a situation that needs it? I still don't know what that is, I don't know what turns on inside or why it turns on. It's a mystery to me. And maybe it's also on the street to you. But you've been doing this longer than I have and you do more of it than I do. So I'm just curious if this is something you've ever thought about.

Meredith  1:17:58

Again, I have to say I'm in a disadvantaged position to answer. One thing I will say is ever since I can remember, all I wanted to do is help people. And I think some people just they have that position where they think, Oh, I really want to help. I don't know how I'm gonna try and help. And I think other people, I mean, in a better way, honestly, these people who kind of are going about their day, and then they suddenly see a position or situation and they're, oh, I'm going to help right now. Whereas, you know, those of us who think about trying to help in any way we can we might get lost in our own thoughts of how can I help and then it becomes overwhelming. Whereas those who are in immediate action, they go, Oh, I should help right now. So I think what timezone there is innocence, fight and flight. But in another sense, it's that twig or that twinge of humanity that everyone has all the time when they see somebody on the street that needs an awful lot or something. When you're walking, and you see somebody injured and you immediately stop, it's it's something that turns on you when you have an immediate connection, and you've seen it. And it's a lot easier for those of us who have been in Myanmar to immediately say, this is how I'm going to help I'm going to help right now because we have a connection to it. For those who haven't even heard of me. It's very hard for them to be sympathetic in a way they can try and they can understand perhaps from the footage. But no matter what we put out, no matter what videos we put out that they'll never have that connection, they'll never have that. That heartstrings to pull that in a sense, because they weren't. They didn't know what we and they didn't see what we saw. And what I need from that also is those who were in Myanmar a year ago, for example, two years ago, they saw cities being developed. They saw you know, for example, again gone transparent. They saw Western restaurants come to town they saw People who are Westerners opening businesses and starting to thrive, they saw the possibility of becoming very often coming in a sense of becoming like a new bank coffee, obviously not to that extent, but the development, I mean, and now, no matter who you are, if you go back to Myanmar, if you've been there, you won't recognize it. And for those who have never been there, you have to feel sorry for them in a way because they will never see what we saw. And they will never visit what we visited. So an easy way to put it is, I think, in this situation, certainly, we have a link, and we have a relationship among other people taking time away as they were there for maybe six months or something or less, because they understand that it was just a country that maybe fell into.

Host  1:20:55

Right, yeah, and that gets at the level of engagement. I certainly don't expect my next door neighbor here in the US to care as much about the situation as me. However, it's still interesting for me to reflect on because I know people with some level of involvement, connection, intimacy with Myanmar, and who are engaging in different ways and to different degrees. Let me just say first, that for me, judgment doesn't really help with anything to feel a sense of judgment towards others, it's definitely just a burden that I would rather live without. So my focus and looking at this now it's more on what is this kind of thing that turns on inside, because there are people I know that were involved in Myanmar and all kinds of ways from having lived there in some capacity learning the culture, the language Burma studies in the academic field, or people who had business or community and friends there. I also know a lot of people who went there for spiritual reasons, you know, to be a monk or a nun or a long term practitioner, meditator. And until COVID hit, I guess, you could say, I've been something of a guide and a resource to help people know which monasteries to go to, and the different kinds of practices they could take advantage of the like. And, you know, frankly, it astounds me to see that people who, for years had been coming to me and to how I'd help them to enjoy this kind of spiritual umbrella and the opportunities that are found in the country, that they now just some of them at least, seemed completely disinterested in the suffering of a country that they were all too happy to take advantage of when things were going well. So, you know, for me, it's distressing to know some people who've grown immensely from their time in the country, benefited from the generosity that was shown to them for whether it was months or years and are now just radio silent. And what's even more astounding to me these kinds of messages of please help me explore me and Mars rich spiritual world, they're still coming in, in spite of the crisis, people are still writing me like, Well, I know that things are a little difficult now, but I want to go and have this kind of meditative experience in this tradition, what do you think about this kind of schedule? And it just leaves me speechless, you know, and especially those who've benefited so much spiritually, from Burma and to Oh, such a debt to the country for their practice, and who are now just completely sitting this one out, so to speak it? So coming back to that central question, it causes me to wonder what it takes for that thing to turn on inside. So that's just an interesting topic that you among so many other people I really am curious to explore.

Meredith  1:23:37

Something I will say on this is so firstly, I think, you know, even even myself, I feel bad about speaking out. Because I am not I, you know, as much as I have this relation to your marriage, as much as I feel like me enlarge my hope, I have to always remind myself, What right do I have the same thing and political issues really, other than the fact that it's my job, but I have to think, I mean, as a foreigner, you have that position where you can say something, and it can be taken as quite saviors, or it can be taken as people being patronizing. If you say, for example, I remember reading a thread of tweets a long time ago and beginning of the crew, this woman she came versus very different. And I mean, obviously, she meant well, but to myself, and to Myanmar people, she was a villain, in a sense, because she was seeing all the the CDM movements is inhumane, and saying, oh, people need to be paid. And I was quite riled up. I was like, how can you say it's inhumane because people taking themselves doing a non violent process. They're putting their lives on the line to try and stand up for what's right. They're not going to work because it's a national strike and yet you in your privileged position, say it's inhumane, because what? You think they're not going to paid? There was already a promise beforehand, that if they were in a CD and movements, they would get some quantity of funds. And, obviously, due to lack of research on heroin or something quite embarrassing, so because she was quite a prominent person in a field, and, you know, obviously, all of them young people. And so I think there's fears to people who want to speak out, they worry that perhaps they'll get a wrong end, or perhaps they aren't actually informed enough on the country itself to speak out in a mountain. And then there's also those who selfishly may just think, well, it was a place I stayed. It wasn't place I lived. And would they speak out everywhere else, they went on court on court holiday. And another thing I will say is also, you know, I've had people who, who are kind of getting in contact with me wanting to see themselves and I see what's happening. And I think it's a level of voyeurism, that quite sickening, certainly to me, because, you know, we have people who are journalists, I want to become some journalists that went into the country, because I think I make myself quite clear on that. So the journalists in country are doing amazing work, they're putting themselves on the mind the lives of their families on the line to try and get the truth out. If you're a foreigner, and you want to come into the country, just to have a look around, that's the same way as trying to look at. I'm always trying to like, look at a dead body for no reason. Like, are you a mortician? Are you a coroner? No, why are you trying to look at this, this isn't for you. So I will say that there's a level of voyeurism, that comes along with conflict, certainly. And I think when you get into the perspectives of some people who want to speak out, maybe just don't want to speak out. There's several layers. And I think certainly, there's a lot of people who are speaking out that don't necessarily need to be speaking out, or they don't need to be speaking. And when it comes to foreigners, some people believe that it's better to stay quiet, because they think they don't know enough about the situation. And if you aren't informed if you aren't educated on a lot of the history of memory, and a lot of the subjects, you could say something quite entangling, like I saw somebody say, Oh, the K new is okay. But j and LA is very bad. And I was like, You do understand what you just said, right? And it's like they hear they hear words, or they hear a little bit about the information that happens in your and they might not fully understand it, or they might call you just don't know. And so for them, I would say, perhaps, speaking out saying simply, the situation is really bad. That's all I know. But it's really bad. And I stand against it. That's enough. And if you want to get involved, if you want to try and educate as we go, if you want to try and educate yourself on the situation, and there's a lot of information out there. And if you want to show support, and raise awareness, reach out to people, they're more than happy to tell you everything, they're more than happy to send you photos, and they're more than happy for people on the outside to certainly get involved.

Host  1:28:35

That is great. I'm so glad you shifted over to this topic. So now we're looking not just at the question of getting involved or not, and in what ways but we're also looking at it from the perspective of one's background, and what are one's intentions behind the desire to get involved. This is such an important topic. What you're pointing to definitely highlights the necessity of Burmese voices being involved to a greater degree. And two fields that I think are especially important to look out for that are journalism and Burma studies. And you know, we're seeing this play out in front of us right now. First in journalism, there is kind of this ongoing discussion that's going on about how recognizing background and identity can easily color the reportage and the journalism. I know that this is a big concern to you as well. Like many others, I know that you were quite concerned and critical about the attention surrounding cn ns Claire's award, visiting a few months back. And then regarding Burma studies, I'm really impressed especially with Mike Charney, he has been quite active and vocal and expressing his concerns about mainly white scholars who have made their careers off of some aspect or another of Burmese culture or history etc. Often with little regard as to how the actual people of Myanmar are affected and he really calls this out where he sees it. So The cool Michael charny has been stressing the importance of having local voices engaged in any scholarship that concerns their own country and culture. This is what he terms decolonizing the field, and he's especially worried that some foreign scholars are going to see this disaster as an attempt to make their career so to speak, without regard for the consequences of their actions on local communities. So, anyway, you also reference Twitter. And for me, I've never really used Twitter as someone who does two hour long form podcast interviews to get to the depth of detail and nuance of what the guest has to say, I think that Twitter is about the totally opposite way to communicate, you can find, but in any case, when I'm on Twitter, the thing that amazes me the most is how so many people seem to have all this time, you know, like writing 20, different threads of a single thought, and then all the responses those generated and all the discussions of each and what almost seems to me like, some people must live in this alternate world of the twitterverse. And I have no idea how you take the time to do so much bickering and posting, while you're also living in the real world and actually trying to get things done, especially at a time like now. But I think getting back to one of the central things you say about your kind of advocacy, it's so important to identify and confront this white savior complex head on going back to the metaphor of the burning house. Let's imagine a person who runs to the burning house and who has something like 50,000 followers on Instagram, and they take a selfie in front of the burning house to show how involved they are. But they never actually help fight the fire. Really, how you can help, I think. So it comes back to the question of, you know, how can you help and certainly taking a selfie in front of the burning fire is not one of those ways. For me, what I've learned through this whole mass is there are two really simple ways that anyone can do to help. The first is to ask a question and listen. How are you feeling? What are you dealing with? What's going on? And again, just listen to the answers. And you know, that's what I try to do on these podcast episodes to just ask questions, be curious, listen, and then hopefully have those conversations and those local voices heard by increasing numbers of listeners. So that conversation gets extended. And you know, since the coup, we've made such an effort to make sure that those local voices are being represented as much as possible, and not just Bomar but also from the diverse ethnic and religious backgrounds. And then just asking them what's going on how they're feeling what they're facing. That's one form of advocacy. That's a powerful form of advocacy, just asking questions and listening. And if you can, sharing the answers, another form of advocacy is saying, I'm there to support you. I'm a friend, I'm a safe person. I spoke to an advocate about this. Several months ago, I told him on the interview, some of us are just feeling so helpless. And we want to be involved yet. We just don't know how So what can we do? When I asked him this, I was expecting this involved and detailed answer. But he just said to me, we just want to know you support us. He said it's hard work going out there. It's hard and it's hot, and you come back at the end of the day, and you're sleeping in a different place. And you just kind of wonder how much gas you have left in the tank to keep going. And then you see just one person in some other country and publicly they send you a personal message. And they they they let you know that you're supported. It could be a public posting or something private, they send but it's enough. And he went on to say it gives us this motivation and this energy that we want to keep on and since I've heard that from him, I've heard the same thing echoed in so many other places. It's probably counterintuitive for many living outside the country and looking at the chaos in the struggle, that this simple kinds of support really helps as much as the Burmese people are telling us that it does. Just conveying that you're a safe person that they can talk to you when things are going well. And when they aren't and you could talk about the situation or the movies or whatever, but you're there for them. So just asking and listening and being a friend. This seems like much better ways of supporting and advocating than pontificating. So I you know, I myself feel so uncomfortable if I'm in a position of pontificating, especially when I could be making a misstep or speaking beyond my capacity or my knowledge.

Meredith  1:34:31

Absolutely. I can't agree more. I mean, first of all, I'm what he would say his Twitter net. I put out one tweet maybe once a month, and I don't know how to use it. It's very confusing to me. But something that's really you know, important even in the kind of analogy we use for car crash. People forget that after accident, you need physio, you need Aftermath kit. And this is still not enough, the math is such that we're in a situation where people need care, they need help like, basically, as you would offer to a victim of domestic violence or abuse, because I mean, obviously, those things are very prominent, but kind of thinking of it along the lines that they have been abused by their own countries. And they need help, they need help to understand that there's, there's ways out of it. And before I got really swamped with a lot of things, obviously, I tried to help through mentorship and also through scholarship, changes, preparation, it's really because exam preparation, and people underestimate the pure value of offering just someone some help in regards to do you need help with this exam, I know this object, let me offer some help for you. And it's something I've been trying to get back up again. So suffering is outside, because there's a large number of young people who are still eligible for a lot of scholarships. And they're missing their opportunity, because one, they've not been able to get to class in such a long period of time, or two, because they aren't aware of how to get through this process, I've offered basically as a standing offer to nearly everyone in Me and I will be a reference to any scholarship that they need. And through my educational work, I have an ability to be a recommendation and a reference. So that's something that I tried to do. Before this, I was also trying to set up mentorships for those who are trying to study abroad, and there's mass influx of scholarships are coming up. And even though the COVID situation, there's a lot of countries that are still taking scholarship students, and it's a very easy thing to do if you have an hour or so at a time to talk to a group of 20 students, and say, This is what you need to be prepared for. If you've been to university or if you've been to college or something beforehand. Even if you haven't, you're an education, you have that ability, you have that knowledge, you can share it, and they can change their lives.

Host  1:37:10

Yeah. So on the subject of this metaphorical car crash or a house on fire that we keep talking about, less, let's shift from talking about the metaphorical disaster to the actual disaster. And this is the third wave of COVID that is now unfolding in Myanmar. So can you review what exactly is going on now with COVID?

Meredith  1:37:32

So the situation with COVID? One thing I will say certainly straight off the bat, we aren't sure, if this is the Delta variant, we aren't sure if it's still COVID, given the symptoms, and given the fact that vaccinated persons are dying. I will say that it's a possibility to be the Delta variants. But there are symptoms and things that we've been finding in the autopsies that don't necessarily. And it's, it's worrying. We don't know if it's new areas, we don't know if it's something new entirely, or something that we already know of, but just haven't aware of yet. So in regards to the situation on the ground, currently, there are a lot of people in fact, there are a lot of people showing oxygen toxicity levels, which doesn't necessarily mean that they need oxygen, this means that they're going on oxygen. There are people who are experiencing symptoms and are going immediately for vigorous treatment, which isn't necessary. But overall, there's a huge amount of people suffering from what we believe to be COVID. And given the fact that the top drawer is limiting resources, they are limiting the ability to access medications, medications is soaring in price. Also, we are struggling being able to afford a lot of medications. There was one that was sold yesterday for $32,000, which is normally around 800,000 chat, which is an astronomical difference in price. And it's it's scary because a lot of people are buying medications that they know are life saving and jacking up the price to an astronomical level to a point where if we as an organization, pulling funds from fundraisers can't afford it, how can the everyday person afford it? Obviously their market is more of the the higher costs for the richer young people, but it's it's despicable in its own way. And people really trying to take advantage of the situation to make money and We are also seeing that there are a lot of people who are suffering not only from poverty, but from lack of resources. Because if they have COVID, they're unable to go outside. And they're unable to get the resources that they need to live every day. And this means that you're going through every day without being able to get food, they're trying to stay home because he is going outside, they're found to have COVID. But obviously, they can be taken to a quarantine Center, which is usually owned by the military. And a lot of people are also fearful of going into hospital because, for example, CDM workers, anything I want in my head, then they immediately get taken to prison. And the prisons are absolutely overrun with people who have diseases, I've been lucky enough to be able to get some people in to see if some of the prisoners are okay. And they are really struggling, not just recovered, but with other diseases due to lack of medical care or due to lack of attention. And also because they've been beaten and tortured. They have infected wounds, they have really problematic injuries. And with COVID app, on top of that, we're looking at people who are not going to have very long, and they have a system within the jails, where they where they find a person who is deceased, and they immediately connect them. So it's almost no knowledge to the outside world when prisoner dies. And they usually keep it as gnosis that they are still taped, for they have been released and are now missing. So this is something to be removed as well. A lot of people who have contacted myself organization because something we were doing, especially in the height of the coup was trying to aid people who are detained. And eating, releasing, eating with warrants, we are finding people who are saying, they tell me they're still detained. It's on my record and not detained anymore. And it becomes very worrying, I don't want to be the person to tell them that the possibility that their family member has been killed in prison or has died in prison. So just in different realms of situations, COVID is hitting every single factor and every single person differently. We're seeing the everyday public being hit to a point where they have to go to hospital and the hospitals are overrun. We see those who are CDM workers who can't go to hospital and they're dying in their homes, we see the agent p persons, displaced persons who are hiding and possibly COVID and have no food supplies and their medications. And then we see those who are detained. And there's so many factors in play that we have to look at the wall and how we can help.

Host  1:43:16

Right? Well, there's no real playbook for resisting a coup or for managing a pandemic either. And the Burmese are now in a position where they have the unhappy distinction of being called on to do both simultaneously. And in this present moment, your team is doing all that you can to help. So can you tell us about some of those things that you've been working on and where some of the need is.

Meredith  1:43:45

So what we primarily focusing on so before the coup, we were a couple of organizations, and we were helping a conflict affected areas already, and help and help diseases. And then when COVID first hit, we were trying to help the COVID response. And now we're dealing with the crew. And what we're trying to do is we're reaching every single section as much as we can, within our realms of ability. We're offering safety precautions in PvE. And we're trying to get vaccinations over the border. We have mobile clinics that we have set up and have your organism throughout the entirety of the nation, but primarily within larger cities, and cluster areas. And then we have backback clinics, which are just very generous volunteers nurses who have permitted us to take them into locations which can't be taken by truck. And then we have kind of volunteer tents that we are trying to set up which are medical units for those who are in hard to reach places they can come down they can get some food and supplies. They can get checkups. And if they have COVID for example, we're going to have one bed set up so that someone can stay It's very difficult within all means, obviously, we have to try and limit our activities, but also increase them. And when we have these mobile clinics, we have to provide safety. So I have to provide safety for every single person in my organization at any single volunteer, I have to provide security for anyone who is working on site. And sort of that, it takes a lot to make sure that our resources get to the locations without interference. And it takes a lot for our mobile clinics to be able to take oxygen and to refill oxygen still, because that has now been made. technically illegal wonder. They want you to go through their administration to read. And it's difficult for us to be able to reach everyone who is sick, we're overwhelmed. Our mobile clinics are running at full capacity, what can we have medications we're buying every single day, we have volunteers waiting in line every single day trying to get oxygen. And we have people on the go consistently, we have medicine being taken to every single place that we can, we're going to people's homes, leaving them some food and eating them to medications, we're trying to keep up with the volume. And as I had said previously, we're having too much prioritize, if somebody contacts my team, because our main coordination team, so for example, my transportation manager, and then my coordination manager, they don't have medical experience, if somebody calls them and says, my relative has COVID, they need oxygen right now. They say okay, we can send that right now. And if, for example, I'm out of date range, then we don't know all of the information, for example. So we might have sent oxygen to somebody who had an oxygen level between 80 and 90, which is still perfectly fine. And who could have used that for somebody whose oxygen levels dropped below 70. So we're having a lot of issues with making sure we prioritize those who are really in need. But again, it sounds almost like we're playing golf thing where people's lives saying that we have to prioritize over others. But if an elderly person has COVID, they're at a higher risk, and they need the oxygen more than a young healthy person has. What is perceived to be COVID. So what we are really doing in terms of response is, we're getting as much information as possible, we're getting all of the locations that those who are in need as much as we can, and trying to make less than databanks. What we can give them what we have, what they need, and what we can do next as a next step. So making sure that we don't wrongly utilize our resources, making sure that those who have donated to us, for example, have a full clear awareness where that money went to, for example, if somebody donates $200, we can get them a cleaner that we can get a cylinder of oxygen to somebody else, we know that, that $100 has bought somebody potentially life saving oxygen or life saving medication, and then we can report back to them your $100 in this person's life with also remaining kidney. And so in terms of COVID response, currently, again, we are putting into those four different factors where we have to focus internally displaced persons, they have to have different medications. And they have to have different resources brought to them than somebody within the city of say, again, if somebody is in their home, and it's not something that's very easy for us to demonstrate. But if somebody is in an IDP camp, someone, then we have to take a load of resources with us. That means clothing, waterproof items, food, because it's a very long way to go to take medications and oxygen, and then not anything else. So we have to have a load of all our resources together and then take it up there. If we don't take our own transportation, this could take too long for some people. Some people within the IDP camp have died. So if we said we can send some of the resources by bus and then get picked up by my team right there. But in terms of sending option, it would be seized and stolen. And then, of course, with the prisoners, we're not allowed to take oxygen tanks inside. So all we can do is try and get some medication to them that would hopefully eat them. So for example, instead of oxygen tanks, we opt in for inhalers, asthma inhalers. I've been trying to help a lot With pupils breathing, thankfully, it's been working to an extent where people have been able to reduce the swelling of the throat, and are feeling more at ease to breathe and that anxiety is low. So sorry to kind of, like, kind of string out that question. But what we're trying to do is basically put it into a full system rollout. And we're trying to act basically in any manner we can to provide as much support as we can.

Host  1:50:34

Oh, no, no, thank you for that comprehensive answer. And I'm sure even with all you said, it's still barely touching the surface. And it's exactly what people need to know about to really understand the reality of what's happening on the ground. During my own recent interview with Dr. Sasa, he called for a COVID ceasefire, as he termed it, meaning that the international community should try to broker some kind of truth in order to provide urgent medical relief. But instead, as we know, of course, the military is not only refusing to help their own people, they're actually working actively to prevent aid from getting in. And even worse, as we mentioned, they're actively causing harm. I'm sure you know, and as Dr. Sasa mentioned in his recent interview with me, soldiers, impersonate patients, they call doctors working underground to come and help them and then they arrest the doctors when they appear. You also noted earlier in our interview, that they're sending positive COVID cases, to already infected areas so that the pandemic will worsen. I don't know if there's any evidence of any country in the world over the past year and a half. That is not just shown neglect or ignorance or inability, but actual evil to go back to that word that we touched upon earlier in the talk, to take steps to get more people to actually get infected and perhaps die. So how on earth is one make any sense of this? Do you see any possibility that the international community will finally step up to assist people in any way given the circumstances?

Meredith  1:52:11

So I can say to that is, in terms of purposely infecting people, we have proof we have evidence, whether international organizations or for example, the International Court Justice would even consider moving on something like that, in the time allotted, the time that we need is another question. For example, if we got the evidence to them, and we told them exactly what was going on, I couldn't see anything being done in less than a year. And that's too long. And so while I think international community, obviously would want to do something, they're so constrained by just constraints in general. And they have to abide by all of their bureaucracy and gets becoming to a point where it sounds bad, but even myself, as an organization that's working on ground is, is feeling almost like there's little point in asking for help. And a lot of people's reaction is to ask for vaccinations with the volume of people who are sick. vaccinations does nothing. And you know, a lot of people have to, obviously, to get a vaccination, you need to not have COVID, you need to have a period of time where you are COVID free, and then you have to get your first vaccination, and then you have to get your second vaccination to be fully vaccinated, and that's still only 98% effective or 99. So, do we really need vaccinations in this moment in time? Yes, absolutely. We need vaccinations for those who aren't infective. However, bringing vaccinations into the country, as I said, I was trying to do so I was realizing it was quite problematic and weak, because if those workstations that just gives vaccinations, obviously, we would be able to administer them before they were found. But if there's if there's a possibility in for us, for an international organization that's purposely bringing them over and has to be very transparent, the steel, then we just have the tapinto vaccinated instead of the people who really need it. What we do need is people studying what's happening in the army need experienced persons who are epidemiologists, we need doctors who are experienced in COVID-19, either on brown calls, or talking from off ground, they need to be off site, taking all of the information that we can give and researching it because there are differences. There are more problems. This is been more lethal than before. The first wave there was obviously not much representation and very few people who were actually infected, went to hospital or anything like that. But This time we are noticing a huge majority of people who are infected or dying. And that is unusual in itself. Obviously, COVID-19 has been noted to be quite a virus. But in this capacity, it's unusual. And we're noting in autopsies, differences. For example, we know that COVID-19 couples crossing. But some of the information we've seen in the autopsies is, it's just different. And so we need people who are very experienced, again, I'm not a doctor, I have experienced in some medical practices, in some ways that I've never claimed to be a doctor or even claim, to have that level of experience. We need those people who have that immense experience to look at this information and say, This is the information this is how we can stop. Because until then, people like us who have these mobile clinics, and are running around basically aimlessly trying to treat symptoms, until it passes, we're going to be overwhelmed, we're going to not be able to fulfill the needs, and we're going to be fighting an unbeatable fight.

Host  1:56:17

The next question might appear to be somewhat dispassionate, in the wake of the human catastrophe that's unfolding in Myanmar. And it might even be completely unanswerable because there are so many variables and such complex dynamics. But as we're talking about the overall strategy and where things are headed with this third wave of COVID, I'll ask anyway, who does this whole COVID situation benefit? In other words, from a political perspective, Which side do you think can actually take the disaster that's unfolding, and gain some advantage in the overall battle going forward?

Meredith  1:56:58

So let's keep putting this way. But again, three different ways we can look at it, if we look at it in a hypothetical mode. So for example, the onion G, and a CRP hitch could benefit from this, his theory became a little bit more public with what they have plans for, if they became very apparent, saying, for example, we know our people are suffering, here's what we're trying to do, here's what we're going to do, they need to be more public with what they're seeing, they're going to do, and they need to be more there for the civilians and for the people of Myanmar, because right now, I can keep talking to a few people who feel a little bit, not let down. But more like they've almost disappeared, but more the arts in the public eye as much as they wanted them to be. They don't know what they're doing. Like that. They don't know what they're doing and what they have planned. And if that's some people's concerns, then obviously they have their their own security to things. But if they were able to present that, and what they have already done, what they have planned beforehand, without it becoming an issue, and the constraints of security, this would bring a lot more hope to the civilians. And then in the terms of detachment, or they are currently benefiting it. So if you think of it as you know, present, past and future, and so future would be your pH and energy, they could potentially benefit a lot from this situation, they could be legitimized through this situation, even more so than they already are. And they could have even more support than they do. Because some people have wavered in their support of energy, which is unfortunate. And then if we look at the present, presently determined or expensive questions benefiting from the situation, they're able to act essentially like bandits, they're stealing medications, they're stealing what they want, and they have no repercussions. They are continuing their brutality with all focused onto the COVID-19 situation. No one is focusing on what they're doing on the outskirts, they're able to shoot people down the road, no one notices they're able to burn down village again and no one notices they able to have these mass brings and no one is noticing because they're focused on COVID-19. And then for the past situations, if the civilians of Myanmar had been able to almost prepare a little bit or if they had some equation to this situation, they could have benefited from this in the terms of having this be the home of the power of the town. Unfortunately, due to the Commodore heavily infected people Nursing that they could put another section of force emergency on the states, they now know that they are going to be in power for another three years. And if the people of Myanmar had seen this coming beforehand, then they could have been able to essentially hope through the possibility if, for example, CRP H and n UD, do really push forward on this, and if they have the ability to perhaps adopted offered vaccinations underground or something, then most humans and most hc dm persons would be very aligned, and very eager for CRP, ch and D to be further legitimize. And they will have much more support and even already do that.

Host  2:00:47

So there are a lot of forces that play there. Yeah. And in the wake of oxygen and vaccinations being withheld by the military, a lot of Burmese people were seeing are administering traditional medications like steaming their sinuses with turmeric, garlic and other spices. How has your team responded to this trend?

Meredith  2:01:10

Traditional Medicine is is and always has been a I don't know how to pass. It's not a rival of modern medicine, but more. It puts us in a position where we can't help people their own for taking traditional medicine, because in some cases, some traditional medicine is okay. But we're in a position right now where this is a very easy way to put it to those who favor traditional medicines. This is a new disease, traditional medicines focus on look at this as new, there's no traditional medicine that can focus on it. We need new medications we need new resources to use against it. There's nothing that we can see ourselves with, there's nothing that we can rub on our backs that will potentially fight this. And I hope that doesn't sound patronizing. I really don't mean to be I do respect traditional medicine. And I respect its history. But we really do need to focus more on treating it with new medicine. I personally, I used to volunteer in a lot of clinics A few years ago, in various different areas. And I saw traditional medicine being used. And I don't have a hatred towards it, I have a displeasure because I have seen young people pass away because they use traditional medicine and they should have gone to the doctor. And so again, I'm not a doctor, I am a medic. I understand a little bit about medicine. But what I do know is if somebody has a chronic illness, if somebody has a major injury, you cannot use traditional medicine on it, you need to get to the doctor, and you need to get some medications. Right now the easiest way I've been explaining it to a lot of people who favor traditional medicine, again, traditional medicine, meaning into medicine, old medicine, it fixes ailments, not a brand new very. And we need brand new medication variants. The easiest way to do it without sounding like a jerk.

Host  2:03:36

Right. And of course What's so difficult with this is that you reference how in the past, people might have had the option of choosing some kind of traditional medication over a more conventional doctor. But with all we've been talking about now, traditional medicine is the only option.

Meredith  2:03:57

That's another problem in itself. But in a lot of cases is worsening symptoms. And this is something I've been trying to explain to people if you're using an inhaler, for example, if it's not an inhaler, which has steroids, antibiotics and things like this, you're inhaling irritant, and the irritants will force you to cough. They'll get in your sinuses, there was no symptoms, they could, if you have an oxygen level of 86 and you start inhaling spices, you could then potentially have a coughing fit, and then your oxygen below 80. And then you're in a danger zone. And this is something that we actually have seen happen. And I don't really know very much about traditional medicine, obviously. I know a bit from what I worked with. But again, I don't want to sound ignorant. I don't want to sound patronizing. I just I have again, not a hatred for it, but I have a very strong passion against people Producing well, and we have very strong passion of helping people. And if something isn't helping someone, and you're administering it to them, and you're damaging them, it makes me very mad.

Host  2:05:12

Sure, understood. Well, I thank you so much for the time that you spent talking to us about a number of really difficult topics, and for all the work that you're doing in Myanmar. And before we close, I just want to ask if there's anything we haven't touched upon in this talk that you'd like to say now or anything about your insights or feelings about what's going on there.

Meredith  2:05:35

Just one thing, quite simply, I would say for those who want to get involved, don't know how, remember, your time is ultimately valuable. Even if you don't have experience, even if you only have a little bit of time, once a week or something, the more people we have helping against this, the more focus we have on it, the more support in your house, the less focus is on what happens or the less focus that is on legitimising their region, the less focus goes into practice, for those who think, well, this is just on you. That's hope for them. If you want to get involved, if you want to do something, you know, fundraising is a huge thing at the moment. If you don't know what organization to give to, I can give you a couple right now, obviously, you know, but maybe some other people on the Gaia food project and mentally holding umbrellas, foundations, very good organization as well.

Host  2:06:42

I'm not going to meet in and see mine. But the contrary, go ahead and be vegan and tell us about your organization.

Meredith  2:06:51

humanzee what we're trying to do is we're trying to give aid everywhere that we can. And I promised this, and I have promised it in the past. And I continuously do. If you do need even a single penny or a pound, I will tell you exactly where that goes personally. And I will give you the information of what that does. And right now that's so vastly important. If you donate to a large fundraiser currently, we've noted a few that had fundraise quite a lot of money. And then the person that they go, the people they were supporting, they never got that money. And so you might feel cheated out of your donation, you might feel like you don't want to help out. And so right now, if you want to help out, even if you weren't able to fundraise even if you weren't able to donate, your time is valuable, you're valuable, and your voices, you can contact myself, you can contact obviously you guys, if you can contact any of these organizations also. And with that help, if we don't reply straight away, know that we're helping someone right there. And then we'll get back to you. And we'll let you know what the options are, you could help and what you might feel comfortable doing right,

Host  2:08:09

thanks for that. And we'll definitely have all those links in the information about the podcast for your organization, skills for humanity and the great work they do. I know for people listening to the audio, sometimes it's hard to catch everything. So we'll make sure that that's easy to find. And for those who are listening to go to the show notes on your podcast platform or on the website and all that information will definitely be there. And it's a very worthy cause. So with that I'm I'm just incredibly honored to have you on here. Although many of the listeners will not have known of you before. For those that do. You're like this larger than life movie heroine that is overseen all these things amid unfathomable circumstances. And I know we're not able to go into the details of all of that here for safety. But just for what we have been able to go into, it's really been a delight. And I hope that when freedom comes, we can get the first booking for some of that inside story.

Meredith  2:09:08

Honestly, I am moreso just thankful for you and thankful for your work and thankful to anyone who is doing what you're doing is inherently important moment. It's so incomprehensibly doing good, I'm sorry. I just have to say I'm really in awe of people like you who have this drive to try and take all of this time out of your day, and put so much focus into a project and really try and help in any means that you can. And getting the word out there, as I said before, is so important and all these new sources have basically forgotten about or they're not getting the full story. And when you give people especially young people the format and the platform to say What is happening firsthand, that is something that cannot be measured in value. And we are sorry to hear. Sorry. You're speaking on behalf of Myanmar. But when you get the chance to have young pupils have tell their own story. Sorry. It's so, so important. And I really do. Thank you so much. What you're doing is very.

Host  2:10:57

After today's discussion, it should be clear to everyone just how dire the situation is in Myanmar. We are doing our best to shine a light on the ongoing crisis. And we thank you for taking the time to listen. If you found today's talk of value, please consider passing it along to friends in your network. And because our nonprofit is now in a position to transfer funds directly to the protest movement, please also consider letting others know that there was now a way to give that supports the most vulnerable and to those who are specially impacted by this organized state terror. If you would like to join on our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. every cent because immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. Donations go to support such causes as a civil disobedience movement CVM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. Or if you prefer, you can earmark your donation to go directly to the guests you just heard on today's show. In order to facilitate this donation work, we have registered a new nonprofit called better Burma for this express purpose. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is now directed to this fund. Alternatively, you can visit our new better Burma website, which is better Burma one word.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me slash better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and cash app. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. In all cases, that's better Burma one word spelled b e TT er bu r Ma. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration. Do you know