Transcript: Episode #70: Towards a More Just Society
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Marlar, which appeared on August 31, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 01:05
During the current crisis unfolding in Myanmar events are happening so fast that it can feel challenging to keep up with them. Although we're working to increase our podcast production far beyond what we've ever done before, to meet the needs of this ever changing crisis, we feel that the podcasts alone still do not address the full range of everything going on. So we encourage you to also check out the blogs on our website, Insight myanmar.org. Also, feel free to check out our other social media sites. Just look for Insight Myanmar, or Burma Dhamma on your preferred platform, and to engage in this topic more deeply and discuss with other practitioners. Head over to the Facebook group meditation in Burma slash Myanmar. With that, let's head to our show.
May 02:04
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06:27
Good day
Host 06:53
alright, so I'm really pleased to be joined by someone who's spent years researching gender, women's rights and violent violence against women in Burmese society. So thanks so much for taking the time to join us on Insight Myanmar podcast.
Marlar 07:07
Hi, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.
Host 07:11
So these are huge topics that you're covering their subjects of enormous importance. And we're really grateful to have you on this episode informing and educating our audience about your findings, I have to say in talking about this issue, there's, of course, a huge disconnect between what was seen during the reforms of the 2000 10s. And what we're experiencing now during the coup. And we're definitely going to be getting into this later in the conversation. But before that, let's talk about your findings leading up to February, and then get into the more recent issues since the coup. Actually, let's go back even further and go into traditional family structure and gender roles and expectations in Myanmar. For listeners who might not know much about this, how would you characterize this.
Marlar 08:01
So, the traditional Myanma family structure is the main character of the family is of course, men, the father or grandfather or the son is the is an important figure of the family. So, we can say there is a patriarchal society, where men are seen as the breadwinner, leader of the family, where women are women, in this case, the grand the grand daughters, daughters or wives, who are supposed to support the men are in in the in the family settings. So in general, men will be leading the family and the woman will be supporting the family. That's how it's supposed to look like in the ideal family near my family,
Host 09:10
right and how would you say traditional Buddhist beliefs have played a role in supporting this dynamic?
Marlar 09:17
Well, in terms of the family dynamic, the the power in the family dynamics is very important when you try to understand me and my family. That's pretty much dry on the traditional Buddhist belief called pole pole. I believe that those of you who are familiar with Mr. contest are very much aware about the term for pole wear. Men male men, superiority is perceived, where men are perceived as superior to women because they have home and this also pretty much can be refer refer to the Buddhist practice in Buddhist practice where men can only become a monk and what women cannot, they can only be none which are secondary to the monks. So, this poll pretty much decides the secondary status of the women in the family.
Host 10:35
Right and we should say that when you mentioned men can be monks and women can be nuns. To clarify men can be because which is in line with the order going back to the time of the Buddha, women in Myanmar cannot be bikuni. in Myanmar, that order is considered cut off. There are attempts to bring it back. But those have so far been unsuccessful. They can only be what's called a theologian, which is a right which is, which is basically like a 10 precepts, practitioner, monks follow to an end 27 precepts, nuns follow something more than that, I think it's like 315, the number could be off. But the the lesson can follow only 10 precepts. And so because the merit that one is owed in spiritual practice in Myanmar is is often determined by the precepts and the ethics that you're following. This automatically would place them at a lower level.
Marlar 11:34
Yeah, that's correct. I think in that's what like, that was what it's what it looks like in Buddhist. I mean, you know, where people aspire to become monks or nuns in that is more of the political religious part. I think, in the in the social settings, we don't pretty much think a lot about these type of things. But there is already in Jamar society, a widespread belief that only men who can become minds have Poe, that's why they are superior. And women who cannot become monks or women who can don't, doesn't have who don't have home. They are not as superior as men, they are inferior to men. That's why men and women are different, different and are treated differently.
Host 12:37
Right. And we should mention that poan is if you put an N word pongee that is the Burmese word for monk, which so pongee great. poan is actually the Burmese language word they use to describe a monk. And I think we actually have to go back a little bit because we've been talking we've been using poan contextually and talking about what how it means and its role in society. But I don't know if you've actually given a definition of it for English speaking listeners who might not actually know what that word means.
Marlar 13:11
It's a theory to believe I can only provide a definition from the layman perspective, because I'm not very religious as well, I have to admit that. But in in layman's terms, we understand that who is it's hard, hard to define, but it's just a belief is it's widespread. It's just a belief that men have this superior quality, it's very abstract idea, but it's just that it's already socialized and internalized in our minds that men have honed, so regardless of their men position, in the workplace or in anywhere, because they have that abstract. You know, abstract, what is a quality, superior quality, they are superior, so they cannot be they shouldn't be challenged, or they should always be treated as different from a woman. That's the widespread belief and we understand from the feminist point of view, as patriarchal, that the social norms and the religious norms are entered, intertwined and entrenched in our society is very much difficult to distinguish. Up to now that these are very intertwined now, and we don't even challenge this type of belief anymore. We just Assume that men are superior, and women are not superior. That's why you in social settings in family settings, where you don't see women around, and men, undergarments and women undergarments should not be washed together. So that's how we were taught since childhood. Because we, our undergarments, women, undergarments will diminish the status of poll from men. So that should men shouldn't be touched by those women undergarments. That's the socialization. And that's the things that we were learn in the in our childhood, and those internalized, and we don't ever question about these anymore.
Host 15:53
Right, and this is going back to a Burmese cultural belief within Buddhism, that it is greater karma to be born as a man. And so that gives us abstract notion of poem. So Myanmar is shifted from being led by a king to being a colonial state to becoming independent, it's then overseen by a military dictatorship. So what's gone through these these different convulsions of leadership and organization, what have you seen and how these changing tides of history have affected the role of women, both in society and in the family
Marlar 16:30
as a generate, because I'm part of the younger generation, so I don't have very much a knowledge about a water what happened, what had happened before the column year period. But I started seeing the the findings and evidence and literature starting from the colonial period, of course, there were some literature that we used to learn in the in our childhood about the powerful Queens in the past, and how they influenced they are called politics, etc. but they were all in Jamar history books. And it's, it's difficult for us to say definitively about these from my perspective. But in my work, I look at the literature starting from the colonial post colonial period. And also I continue studying the women situation during the military leadership, and also during the transition period, and up until now. So, I believe that there are two there were there used to be two narratives, in our, in the literature, where some people said that the status of my women are high as compared to our neighbors like India or China. And we also found those type of writings. Some of you may be already aware, also, that in during the colonial period, were the scholars documented, and so Burmese women and not needing to change their last name and and they saw women economic participation, and then they also saw greater freedom. So, I think that because as a young person, I can I could only rely on the literature. So because I did not see that part. So I cannot argue definitely, definitely, definitely. However, that that narrative, I think that that narrative was carried on by also Burmese elite, women who were part of the anti colonial movement or who enjoyed more greater freedom in our society, especially during the military dictatorship, period. So I think that from during that period, powerful woman, especially the elite woman, had a had a voice. I know in terms of women rights situation. However, that changed when the transition started in 2010. And then We think because the country opened up, and they were also more studies and more younger generation, also study about women situation in Myanmar. And they, they there, it was the time that where intersectional feminism started to thrive. And we started seeing that, yes, it may be true that some powerful woman enjoyed greater freedom in the MR society, but there may not be the case for a lot of women from different socio economic background. So I, therefore, we cannot conclude that the the single narrative is reference will be representative for all women. And we believe that the the women in Yemen, society and their experiences are intersectional. And I, for example, myself, I do an AI research of violence against women. And one of my perspective and also from the theoretical perspective is that violence against women and actually cut across all all socio economic backgrounds. And it happens because of the gender inequality in society. So that's the perspective that I do my work. And from my findings, and from my research, since 2013, that balance went against women, actually, we find that it cuts across all sorts across regardless of your status, or your education background and your economic background. And but it's true that risk factors are more severe in in the lower socio economic class. So, so I have to say that the arguments until 2021, was that we saw the women enjoy freedom to some extent, at the individual level. But when you start to communicate with people at the relationship level, or when you leave at the society or community level, that individual freedom is compromised. And that's where the Violence Against Women violence experiences, kicks in. So that's my reflection from my research work.
Host 23:08
Right. So when one goes back and read some of the colonial literature written by British, one of those things that does stand out is, are some of the British who've had in the 19th and early 20th century had experience of traveling around the world, other colonies and seeing other societies. They remarked about in their views, how in comparison to some of these other countries, a higher level of freedom and agency that Burmese women had, and probably indeed, when they were being compared to, you know, Indian or Muslim societies at that time, they that that might have been true. And then following that there have been Burmese authors who wrote, supporting that kind of view as well, you reference a couple of famous ones in your writing like Mimi kind and Montana AG, that really describe Burmese women with a sense of agency. The famous example is they're the ones who hold the purse of the money that has been makes and cite some other examples of what kind of freedoms they have. And then on my own podcast a few months ago, I spoke to Mimi a who's a famous foodie in England and has become an activist during this period. And when I asked her what she felt the greatest mischaracterization of in the western press about Myanmar at this time was she the thing that that earns her the most and frustrated her was that there was the sense of painting Burmese women as demure. That was the word she used. They were, they were seen as demure, or they were seeing without agency. And that this was actually very much not the case, especially at the moment with what she mentioned. It wasn't the case historically and cited some of those examples, but was not the case now either with what Burmese women were doing during the current protests. So all of these writings in a different Whether we're looking at the early colonials, whether we're looking at some of the the Burmese authors of an earlier generation, like maybe Kinder mcconaughy, or whether we're looking at NEA today, they all in different ways portray Burmese females as having a sense of agency and empowerment. And you're saying that you're finding their perspective, problematic. So what about their characterization? Do you see as incorrect or needing some kind of reworking?
Marlar 25:30
Um, I would say that, first of all, we have to think about who writes, who writes, does the author have the credibility and in credibility in terms of, is she? Or is the author? Or is he informed? By? by it? Are they informed enough, or are their works can make representation of the society as a whole, I think, is a very important point. Because I think that we need to be aware about generalizing experiences of a woman in Myanmar society. Because it really is true that I have to say, it's true that we have, to some extent, the Burmese women, I say Burmese, not other ethnic people, Burmese women have some greater freedom, but it is within the context of your higher education, or your higher economic status. Because the more power you have, the more leverage you can make, at the, at your, you know, at your relationships. But as I mentioned before, that individual agency is compromised, when you are dealing with your people, you know, around your community, or with your husband, etc. So I think that is a very dangerous move to generalize the entire population, the entire population with a single narrative, we always have to be in have to bear in mind that even though I, so I have a greater freedom doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will have that freedom. Of course, it will be great to have freedom and for all women, you know, I will be very happy to make that kind of generalization in my ideal world. But it's, I think that it's not fair enough, because we are the ones who are writing or who are making a voice on behalf of this woman. We have, you know, to some extent we have greater freedom we have, we have privileged to say something, but what about those women who are suffering, because they cannot, nobody can hear them? They are shouting, they have agency, but everything else is not favoring to them. So I think that we have to be very careful to make a generalization.
Host 28:43
The metoo movement was really a watershed moment in the US in addressing gender inequality and encouraging women to speak out against harassment and rape. You've written a bit about how the me to movement came to me and more can you describe that here?
Marlar 29:00
Yeah, it's also interesting that if we look at the other societies like Korea, Japan, or even Thailand, the me to movement, we felt their presence. Some of them were on the streets. And then some of them were, you know, openly discussing about it as me too, in in other context, but as a researcher, I don't feel that presence, me to presence quite strongly in our society. There were of course, actually people talking about me too, you know, and stuff. But we can't be sure that this is the me to movement is felt by The rural community or people who don't have access to social media and stuff, and there weren't, there wasn't also a title. You know, like, of course, there was some. I think that some kind of symbolic, symbolic things like vagina monologue, for example, although it didn't say that it's there, is there, you know, me to think, but it's a bit of silence me too, you know, according to the organizers. I agree. I agree to that, too. But I think that the fact that vagina monologue itself is very, you know, like, pretty much coming from the privileged people. So, I think that we didn't see much of me to movement in my mouth. But a part of the part of the EMR society, who is privileged and have access to social media, they started opening up sharing their experiences. And there was also, I think, a significant milestone, before that. It was talking about facts, and you know, all these vagina all these things, is pretty much taboo. And nobody, especially women know, they wouldn't dare to say it publicly. But I think that me too shifted the landscape for a bit, but not to the extent that I would love to see.
Host 31:43
Right, and I think another factor in there is just that as me too, was taking off the digital age was coming to me and Martin a very different way, you know, this was a slow progression. In terms of technology in other countries that feels even in the US, it feels a bit overwhelming, and how technology has come on like a, like a wave, but it was kind of going from one step to another to another. Myanmar, this really came overnight in terms of the access that was provided. And even then we're, I think that Me too, probably took off on Twitter more than any other platform. And before a few months ago, Twitter was was really very, very seldom used among Burmese people. So so that maybe also was a factor. So how do you see this digital or technological component factoring in with what me too was able to do and not able to do in Myanmar?
Marlar 32:36
Oh, well, I think, technology, I think that it's really, it's a useful tool, if you use it for some positive, some positive movement, like me, too. And, of course, there were also other side effects. I think we wouldn't focus on this on that. But from my point of view, I think it's a it's a great, you know, movement for women to, it's not, like, I think before, we have a problem, but we don't have a name for that. And now that somebody came up with the name, and, and we saw that it's happening everywhere, it's not alone, we You are not alone. It's not that only me and my women are suffering this issue. In, in particular, I think that sexual harassment, sexual harassment has been a, you know, like, has been in your map society for a very, very long time. And it was only seen as trivial, trivial, and not important, not serious enough to pay attention from the policymakers point of view as well, because I think you may be also familiar that in rural society, you know, it's courting, even, you know, the, the, the parents, or the villagers, the end the town, the village, they would encourage this type of coding, this is a lovely practice where the single, single women, the girls and men, the boys, you know, it's, it's just just part of the social practice. So, I think that this, this recording practice, it has somehow transformed already into harassment, but we still see it. I see it as a very part of them in our society. You know, like, for example, I would say, I, I go out on the street and some men are thing, long songs, you know, when I walk on the street, I feel so much bothered by it. But the main thing that I don't know where it comes from, it will be a different. Another issue, like, the man, you know, they they feel, they find the plan, they find pleasure, you know, because from the ghost, you know, on the stage, and it's not, you know, strange for them, you know, to just, you know, saying, you know, like, it's just, it's just part of the part of the social practice that where people don't see it as a problem. But oh, man, they have been suffering quite a lot, because it really diminish yourself more. And also, your individual, and freedom and also in it also affect your mental health too. So I think it's a very big issue from the woman perspective, but it's not the same, as important as for, you know, for society as a whole. So I think there'll be two when it came, of course, when the social media, a lot of women already were using social media already. So when the meteor came, we have a name now. So we started opening up. But I will say, it's ended somewhere, and it didn't, you know, like, it wasn't as strong as other countries, I would say, I'm not sure. Why is it that exactly. I that's why I think that we need more studies. In order to explore these types of issues. We just don't know why. It's interesting
Host 36:57
how you reference that traditional coding practices from another generation or their era, maybe another century, now have elements in them that are seen as inappropriate, and today's gender standards and gender roles, and it makes me think of, in some countries, the proper way of courtship, and eloping in previous centuries was to actually kidnap the the young girl that one wanted to marry and put her in a in a sack or something and take her away. And then that was the that was seen as a low pain. And that was at that time, that was a commonly accepted practice. The woman knew it as well, the parents knew it. And, of course, that would be a very egregious kind of activity to do today, when when times and views and perspectives have changed, and people's attitudes need to change along with them.
Marlar 37:48
Yeah, very cool. I agree with you. It's just that the time has changed, you know, but the practice is still there. And it's really not, you know, like, reasonable and relevant and this society in this 21st century anymore, but I think no one seemed to be bothered by that.
Host 38:06
Right. And when we look at how the internet and technology and social media has come on, and how that affected me, too, I mean, these new features of social media, they can they certainly can carry forward the message of me too, but they could do other things as well. And, as mentioned, me and Mark came online all at once, as opposed to other countries. We've seen the problems that Facebook did with the Rohingya crisis, for example, but how have you found the online culture has affected gender roles, violence against women, overall sexuality, because even in our country and us, we, there have been enormous studies on looking at how online culture has started to fundamentally affect some of these things, and young people and teenagers, that how is changing general sexuality, other other kinds of things, the violence against women, other kinds of factors that are going off and unpredictable and new directions. So how are you finding online culture in Myanmar starting to affect those things?
Marlar 39:10
Oh, I think that the first thing that I can pick on is because more and more women are now exposed to social media and also see what other fellow women you know, are doing in other society as well. So definitely the the feminism the belief that women and men should be equal, I think that everyone has started to internalize that it openly from the woman's side, I would say and also it's also partly due to the you know, awareness raising the women rights organization have been doing that. To some extent, online empowerment and social media, you know, lifestyle is also affecting women, like women, you know, women life. So I think that they, it has changed to some extent that before, you know, violence against women in specially before, I think it was women were happy hapless like nobody was there there for them. But now they started seeing, you know, all these sort of things through social media. And they, they, they know that they are not alone, you know, this is a universal problem. And this is also a human rights violation, they started, you know, like, asserting it, and they started to feel empowered. I think that has happened, you know, like, in the past 10 years. But what makes it problematic is that men have not changed as much as that woman has. So that's where I think that because men, they wouldn't want to change, because they're pretty much comfortable with, you know, what normal society, actually aka society has to offer. It's just that women are not, you know, it's not convenient for women. So they know that through social media that this is not acceptable, and they started, you know, challenging men. So I think that, from the men side, they started to feel threatened. And then that's why I think the violence incidents are partly, you know, like, being contributed by that, by that aspect. I think that the point is that, because of social media, women have changed. And then they started, you know, recognizing their self worth. And they're also, you know, their opportunities and also their rights. But there is also backlash and resistance from the other side. So I think that's the, that's the main issue that we are facing.
Host 42:28
Right? So you talked about how social media has been used to advance some of these causes. On the side of women, even if men haven't exactly caught up. What I'm curious about is the flip side of that, and what we've seen in us is an increased sexualization online. And where the sexualization goes, can be a couple different directions, there could be what's called sex positive, where it could be the sexualization could be seen by those doing it as being something of empowerment and expression and liberating. And there could also be a sexualization that's exploit that that's exploiting and that is, is, is making is objectifying. So there's a couple of different directions but but online sexualization is clearly something clearly a trend of how our own technological youth in the US has gone. So I'm wondering what you've seen in terms of sexualization on the internet in Myanmar as it started to grow on social media.
Marlar 43:36
Well, on this topic is pretty much new in new for me and also for our country as a whole. Because we are I would say that the social media, of course, somehow, I would say, because I think that the social media, for example, we seeing, especially this, I think the relationship level that well, women are being trapped by the more open, you know, more open believe and prospective and open to the lifestyle, the global cultural lifestyle, but they are also still trapped by their traditional beliefs. So let's say for example, there is a couple and they for example, before All these all these social media and stuff, premarital sex is seen as something in appropriate. And it wasn't, you know, practiced, widely practiced in our culture. But I think that the last 10 years in the last 10 years we have started seeing this practice, especially in the younger demographics. But the problem is that it's still like, okay, they started going out. And the problem is that they started embracing this type of idea, but there wasn't, there isn't any open and frank discussion about what is going to happen next. So for the women part, yes, they started having premarital sexual practice or intercourse, etc. But they believe that the man will marry them. But in from the man side, it is not what they is not what they they don't know that they will be expected. So I think that it's just that we are in the in the middle. And where we don't know which values and which values and which values we should be pursuing. I think that that's the situation that we have here. That's why we started seeing lots of relationship problems among the young couples, and there are also consequences of it, where people especially, you know, they started fighting, they started fighting, when the girls realized that the man is not going to marry them. They have already started living or living together already. And their expectation is that the men will marry them because they have lived together, but for the most part is not the case. So although I can't make generalization about it, I think that this is something that in the future, some scholars who have expertise on this issue should be exploring. Because I think that's also the level the rent or venues that where we also see the violence, the dating violence, and revenge pornography. So I think that this is an issue that is, you know, that has to be explored and in the future.
Host 48:04
Right, yeah. And that's definitely been an issue in the US that's been gaining. More and more interest in scholarship is how this online culture is starting to sexualize young people earlier and earlier on in ways that previous generations were not. So moving on your essay in tea circle, Oxford explored if gender violence was passed down in Burmese family culture, what were your findings in this article?
Marlar 48:32
Well, the findings I was writing, based on my dissertation, on, on the looking at the intergenerational of violence against women, actually, I have been researching this violence for a long time. And it seems like no, like, I not getting through the messages or not getting through. And I started feeling like the society as a whole. We don't care enough about women. We don't want to protect women. Of course, there are some individuals or organizations who are working tirelessly on this issue. But I have to say that the society as a whole, they have no willing to protect their own women. So I started exploring this intergenerational angle, where you see that the violence actually transmits through the generations. And this is just my realization. Like last year, that I know that there are a lot of scholarship in the Asia Pacific and global studies as well. They have been doing tremendous, an incredible, incredible job in this angle, but For me, you know, only a few last year or one and a half years ago that I started looking at that angle. And that's when some of my previous confusion started starting to be more clear that I have now more clarity on this issue, that I now have some understandings and findings that, that if you witness violence, especially when between your parents you learn, you know, use, you see that violence as a normal behavior, or as an appropriate way to resolve the conflict, and you started also replicating, you replicate this behavior in your adult life. So that's the findings that I, I found in my research that the children of the violent homes, they, when you ask the women who experience violence, they recorded their history of witnessing their mothers being abused by their fathers. So we have a very clear link between these two variables, which is witnessing into witnessing your parent abuse, and being victimized by your partners. So there is already an association. And then my point is that this violence will carry on. And we will also see in the next generation, because theory have already proven that there is a correlation, and even some pathways that prove that that is directly associated between these these two angles. So it's important for our society, because our society, the country, we are, the family structure is very important for our society. So we, the country, if we say, you know, something to break the family, it's not acceptable. Like, that's why you see that women are, you know, always asked not to leave the abusive husband. Because for the sake of the children, and this is, you know, what the more traditional family you have, you should have father and mother, and children. This is for children. But the thing was, I saw in my research is that, in fact, if you continue living with your violet husband, or violent father or mother, it really affects your child's long term development. And if there is also a risk that that child will also do the same behavior in their adulthood.
Host 53:13
And then if it is endemic in the culture, what can be done about it,
Marlar 53:17
this issue a note is doesn't have a single solution, it has to be very holistic approach. You have to think about prevention efforts. And at many levels, at the individual level, and the relationship level, also at the community and society, society levels, but because we are talking about the family, so I would focus on the family level intervention, where you start, you can start looking at the, for example, positive parenting practices, promoting positive parenting practices in the family. I think that's a very important start. And also, we can also promote, like, anger management, and also like, conflict resolution skills for the marriage conflicts, those type of practical skills, I think, will be very important to intervene to break the family level of violence.
Host 54:28
How about the more formal provisions such as legal regulations and such so how does Burmese lot self protect or ignore the freedoms and rights of Burmese women and then how is that law enforced?
Marlar 54:42
So, so, so, in terms of law, and provisions, I think that's where you know, like the, the difficult you know, the challenge exist, because we still do not have, we still do not have the anti violence, comprehensive anti violence against women law. So those of you who may have been working in this field, know that the anti violence against women law, pro ball in short term that it started drafting since 2013. And it was never able to pass until 2021. So it was it took seven or eight years for a law to in order to publish on the national media, not to the state of passing. It took eight years for women groups to advocate to pass this law. But the law was never passed. Why is that? I feel really sad, that that, why is it so difficult for you, policymakers or for you, as a government to protect women who are suffering, and who are being beaten at home? There is no protection for for women, who are, you know, like being tortured by their own man or by their own father? So why should women turn to that that's the, you know, like, that's the reality. And then, of course, there are some protections that are given to women. Let's say some laws provide, for example, the Burmese women, customary law for marriage, I don't remember the law name is a quite, it's quite lonely. It says that you can only leave or you can only you are only entitled to divorce. For some reason, you know, there, there is no explicit, you know, protection for women who are suffering, emotional abuse, or you know, murder, rape, for example, something like that. So, I think it was, is quite, you know, how to say, vulnerable state, for women who continue living in an abusive home, but no protect no proper protection for them, when they want to report to. So I feel that it's very important to have to have to have a law that protect women from violence against women.
Host 58:02
And in the 2000 10s, we saw a number of changes as the country was going through greater freedoms and the transition, looking at the perspective from this area, specifically looking at the changes that would impact women and protect them. You mentioned one of those bills, but overall, how was this period for the issues that you concern about? Were there other kinds of reforms or attempts taking place during this open window of greater freedoms and transition?
Marlar 58:38
There was an interesting, there was an interesting time aware, in 2015, the, the usdp LED government, they passed the four recent religious law, you may be aware about it, so they must have. And, of course, there were a lot of a lot of criticisms against this law. And surprisingly, there were also women supporters, who are who are in favor of those laws. So one of their, one of their arguments is that and their favorite among the four laws is that the monogamy, monogamy, monogamy, and you can see why women are in favor of monogamy. Because a woman in Myanmar they are very frustrated, and also unbothered by men having multiple partners because before that, too, there's a lot that woman raised, religion protection law, it was legally okay for men to have second voice. And there were some complete there are some complete innocent A big part of it, but I wouldn't go into details. But the thing is that women are in were in favor of this monogamy law because they were so desperate. And then that's why we started seeing the sum, the whole package is discriminatory, and there they are still there. And, and they are also, you know, when people who are trying to push the NLD government to revoke those laws, but it never happened.
Host 1:00:42
Right. So during this period, you certainly didn't see the kind of progress that you were hoping for.
Marlar 1:00:49
To some extent, I would say when, before starting from 2010, to 2015, because the country was open, starting to open and there were also some motivation from the usdp Labs, governments that they wanted to, you know, get approval or, you know, some sort of positive, you know, views from the international community or from the civil society. So, they were pretty much, you know, very open about making new protection laws, for example of the, for example, the policy, the 10, year, national, next fall, we call it national strategy, action plan for Advancement of Women, where they have 10 areas, and they have based on a Beijing platform commitment, you know, I wouldn't go into details. But the, of course they will, there are also frustrations about, you know, the stagnant progress of implementation of the policy. But, nevertheless, there were some commitments. We started seeing that was not seen during the military to take the picture. However, there were in 2015, there were a lot of high hopes, because of the National League democracy government took the office and the Johnson City State Councilor was the women leaders. So there were a lot of high hopes, from the women groups as well from also other other groups. But in terms of the women rights, I think the NLD government struggle with other several issues and, you know, set set aside the women issues. So there we didn't see much progress during those periods.
Host 1:02:48
You've written as well, that the government does have a big potential role that it can play in this area. What would you say would be some reasonable actions that it could have taken? And what would have been the impact if it were able to push certain policy or rules forward that could really start to shift some of the more informal aspects of the culture?
Marlar 1:03:13
Hmm. I think that to thing to be. The first thing is that the NLD government, they were they faced so much criticism and also with with the Rohingya issue, so they were pretty much occupied by the Rohingya issue. And so and for the second point, I think that it's wrong to assume that when you have a woman leader, the women issues will be prioritized. It was a Ron, Ron assumption. That's what although you have a women leader, the top position, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will be feminist. So I wouldn't say Dawn sensoji is feminist. And also, again, going back to the going back to the you know, our first narrative that we discussed that door sensitivity the state comes a lot also comes from the privileged background. So I think that her experiences and great the greater freedom that she had, she even made some official, I think speech mentioned about women and men are equal in Mr. Society. If you both strive and try enough you will get to that position. So I remember those sort of statements that she made in the past and I from my memory, but my overall election is that because the the leaders there very few women leaders, but those women leaders don't represent and don't have this understanding of the intersectional nature of women experiences. That's why I think that the they could have done better if they have, or if they are owned with more this sort of knowledge and understanding, but it wasn't the case.
Host 1:05:36
And if they could do better, what better could they have done? What kinds of legislation do you think would have been most effective for the kinds of problems and concerns that you're seeing?
Marlar 1:05:47
Yeah, specifically, the violence and the violence prevention Commissioner, and the Violence Against Women law, you know, there were already a lot of technical support given to the Ministry of Social Welfare, the gender football department. And so, but the thing is that they didn't make use of those expertise and the opportunities, opportunities? Well, I don't understand why it took such a long time for them to properly you know, accept or integrate the, you know, the, the integrate the, the perspectives from the civil society organizations, because they were working very closely. You know, at the policy level, you know, woman rights organizations are there, they are international organizations are also there they are, they were part of the technical working groups. But there was so much, there was so much, I think that the patriarchal belief entrenched in some of the old ministry, you know, older ministry, the old belief about, you know, women issued not a problem in society. So they don't feel the need to address women rights issue, because they don't see it as a problem, because everyone you see, you know, next to you come from a higher status, higher socio economic background. So why, you know, would you feel that, you know, there is a need to address it, they don't they, there is no problem for them, so they don't feel the need to solve it. So, I think that is the ministries, you know, integrated more, you know, feminist policymakers, not necessarily have to be women, men to feminist policymakers, and also athenee, from people from ethnic backgrounds and young people I think they would have made made differently.
Host 1:08:24
That's really interesting, and definitely a discussion going forward, depending on how things shake out. Concerning rape, you've mentioned there are challenges with even reporting cases in Myanmar as victims and their families feel a sense of shame. So do you have any sense what the actual numbers are of rape in Myanmar and how that compares to other countries?
Marlar 1:08:51
Oh, well, the case because I mostly research about intimate partner violence. So I know from my from the findings, and from our, from our, from the NEMA in our existing data that it's to nearly 3% of the population experienced sexual violence from their intimate partners, but I can't provide a specific data for sexual violence by the non non partner. But it's but all I can say is that it is very underreported. Very underreported, and there is also like, associated as mentioned, associated shame regarding sexual sexual violence, even at one recent, one of my recent fine research, there was a case That was reported to the legal, you know, service providers, but the family or they want to they would want to, they don't want to pursue an illegal action. Because it's something, you know, is, you know, because there are consequences of the reaching, you know, leaving with Blackspot in the, in the society. It's also go back goes back to the beliefs that what I also what we also discussed the premarital sex thing, because it's not acceptable in Myanmar society to have premarital sex, regardless of how I you know, and the children born out of wedlock is not acceptable. So, it doesn't matter if you are raped, or you know, like you do it without consent or with cons, it doesn't matter. It's just a shameful it's a shameful for the family, especially the father's, the father's, as a protector of the family, you know, that person, the family is humiliated, because they cannot, you know, properly, you know, protect, protect the family, or the daughter, daughter. So it's all mixed. It's not just about the woman, I know, suffering is also a reputation of the family as a home. So they wouldn't, you know, like, do it, they wouldn't do something that will, you know, you know, make dark spot a black spot to their to their family name. So, we we believe that is underreported. And it also is consistent with other patriarchal countries to the Global Studies also have already proven proof that sexual violence is largely underreported, what we saw in the even in the prevalence studies is only tipped back iceberg of the tip of the iceberg.
Host 1:12:23
And when rape is reported, what do you know about the legal process are suspects often questioned and arrested if found guilty?
Marlar 1:12:34
I think it's very complicated. It's very complicated, I could provide a legal perspective in that issue, but from my understanding, and also, from my experience, talking to the survivors of the sexual violence, especially, okay, if you are poor, if you're poor, it's very challenging for you to report the report of violence due to the many you know, associated costs, even if you want to go to the record, the police, or you know, if you want to open, open, now find the case, there are court procedures that are very costly for them. But now that there are many organizations who are providing legal aid for the rape survivors, but I think the reach is still very, you know, not wide enough. At the society level, there are many things that we need to do. So I mentioned I mentioned one point. But another point is that if you are if you come from, you know, more comfortable family, you wouldn't report it. Because it's a family reputation, you have to protect, you have to protect the family reputation. So I think that we there are many layers, you know, around it, that's why I think we need proper, you know, studies or, you know, school scholarship or you know, even, you know, in depth studies about it, the thing is that we don't even have the, you know, this the forecast balance against woman studies yet. So we don't know the, you know, the magnitude of the problem. You know, so I think that there are so much more that we need to explore. And it's very important and serious issue that people pay attention to, in my opinion.
Host 1:14:48
And you also write about male entitlement to sex and marriage known as karma pangolin. You write that this is partly an expectation of gender roles, and yet it also falls into Domestic Violence, which often gets unreported. Can you say more about this?
Marlar 1:15:06
Well, but it's also very much important and sensitive topic for even for women, for women to discuss. Because domestic violence has always been seen as an internal internal affairs in the, it's very shameful to disclose your, you know, private life to the women or to other people, you know, that's the, you know, the the widespread belief that women do no, share those stories, if you you know, if you, you know, show them that you are in your self esteem, sympathetic and you understand a you are, you know, willing to listen, they do share those stories. So, for my research, and also a look in reading from other studies. In the physical, if you experience physical violence, if women experience physical violence, it's often sexual violence is the sexual violence follows. So, sexual violence and physical violence, always, you know, you know, happened together. So, but the problem is that we can't quite see it, you know, in the studies, but a few qualitative studies have already showed that many women in Myanmar society, in the family settings, they are experiencing this, this this, but they don't have a name for that. Now that because of this service provision, service, provide a service provider provision organizations, some, some women started to know that it to know this name, and they started to know that it's a problem. But it still is very, you know, difficult thing for them. Because the, as I mentioned before, if you don't have enough economic or education, you know, if you don't have that, you know, like, the, you know, power in your relationship level, is really difficult for you to negotiate, and challenge the male authority. Because, men, of course, they feel entitled to it, they always, you know, like, have this kind of access whenever they wish to. And if you refuse, if White refuse, you know, to this, you know, wish to his wish, of course, they, you know, women reported that the use of physical force is always, you know, you know, the reason that why, you know, women experience sexual violence, and it's very sad, you know, it's very sad. And it's more problematic at the lower socio economic level. Because when you pull course, your house is also small, and you have other family members, and then you sleep in the same room. And yeah, all those sort of things very complicated.
Host 1:19:02
So you've studied the role of women by looking at these cultural and familial structures. And in doing so, some of your findings reveal the influence of Burmese Buddhism on gender roles. And we talked about that, at the very beginning and exploring this idea of poem and where that fit in and the use of karma. What I'm curious about is how these religious perspectives have operated at beyond the superficial level of lay society. So on my side is someone who has spent many years in monasteries and meditation centers in Myanmar, and with so many monks and nuns as friends, I was really intrigued to consider the implications going back to the source. And as mentioned before interviews, several nuns have requested our platform to actually begin the series, looking into gender attitudes within the Sangha for their benefit, which we were set to do. Before the cube broke, and this was already something on our radar, but as with everything else on our list and on the shelf, we've postponed that to be able to talk about stories that directly relate to the coup. So, in a sense, this episode is kind of the first of the series, even though it's taking more of a lay perspective. And eventually we'll get around to really going into depth with some of the monastic and spiritual and religious perspective. But what I'd like to know from you is that if we're talking about this role that the Burmese Buddhist beliefs play on gender roles within lay society, what are your thoughts and how they're operating in monastic society?
Marlar 1:20:42
Oh, well. It's also it's also, it's also amazed me sometimes, how I mentioned also before, how individual freedom I have in my family, you know, when I was growing up, and and I never questioned about why I cannot go to some, you know, areas in, you know, for example, Shwedagon Pagoda or other, you know, quarters, and I feel, you know, very annoyed, and also frustrated, whenever I see those signs that women are not allowed to enter, because that's a sacred place, or that's a holy place, only men, you know, are allowed to, to enter, and I started questioning myself. That, okay, then, you know, there is this, you know, very simple, you know, law, lying in all that make women and men, one, man as superior, and women as inferior, that's why I'm not supposed to enter and I am not allowed to enter. So what if that man is a thief? Does he still have more superior quality than me, this is the, you know, some thought process that I always, I've always had, in my, in my mind, you know, since I was, I was childhood. And when I grew up, I grew up and now that I started, you know, looking also other literature and listening to other people perspectives, even, you know, some prominent monks say that this was not what Buddhist, of course, Buddhists taught, of course, you know, other people, you know, can provide more insights on that, but from my perspective, and from my understanding, and also what I learned from other people is that it's not just, you know, taught what God has taught us, because there must be there must have been some kind of religious practices in the past that is not very convenient for women, to, you know, to take part, for example, the, there used to be time where we did not know that the sanitary sanitary pad, is it right, we only was were introduced by sanitary pads. Not long ago. So, now that the time has already changed, of course, there were some reasons in the past that is, you know, appropriate for that kind of practice. But now, that it's, it's not relevant anymore, and, you know, no, why would I, you know, as an individual, why would I, you know, not be allowed, when, you know, for example, on demand, you know, from, you know, like, you know, from men, for example, thieves or you know, like some sort of, you know, madra, for example, you know, when they can allow, so I think that these type type of things are still a mystery to me. And I would love to learn more about it. And because, from a from the perspective of someone who do research on violence, because that belief is pretty much one of the main drivers of what is happening, you know, to women lives, and we need more proper studies on that. I come to be, you know, like, I'm not convinced enough that why, you know, from man, you know, would be, you know, more superior than me.
Host 1:25:20
Right? Sure. And I think that that would be a very complimentary study to look at how these Burmese cultural interpretations of the Buddhist teachings are not only influencing casual, informal lay society at the superficial level, but how they're operating at a real depth in the heart of the spiritual and religious practice in order. And there's certainly a lot there that can be explored. Up to this point, so much of our conversation has centered on traditional Burmese society and family structure, and what the civilian government was trying to do in 2000 10s, as well as historically what we know about previous areas. Since February, of course, we're living in a very different world. So with that in mind, I think it'll be helpful to transition and gain an understanding of what we know about the military, his past actions and perspectives concerning gender. What can you tell us about that?
Marlar 1:26:24
Well, I think that from looking back, what they did, during the military dictatorship, the, it's also very complicated issue, it's not just about gender is also religious, and also ethnic issue. And people believe that the military, you know, if you are the minority, you know, military soldiers, you know, you won't be promoted to the very senior level, that's the assumption that ethnic people have, and that's a whole different issue, but for for the military itself, is pretty much pre dominated is all men is the main class and is the main class and they have this, I think, that they have this because they you know, the men and also Buddhist, their superior superiority, and the way they perceive, you know, must be pretty, pretty high. And they only see women, you know, as someone who should be the cultural bearers of the society, and then who only see women as a supportive in order to advance the what the military. So, you can also see that when there was a time that were and you know, this women, military wives, or military wives or something, a woman, near my women associations or you know, my maternal and child children associations, they started, you know, establishing those, you know, those associations where the women's are the wives of the military men and they are job essentially is to promote the traditional Status of Women, and also the to preserve the Yama Yama culture, which is Myanmar Buddhist culture. So, I, and they also have a history of violating ethnic women, minorities rights in the conflict affected areas. So, so, if we look at those, you know, periods, I don't think that future is no, you know, quite, you know, favorable for women in terms of their rights.
Host 1:29:40
Right, and you reference their treatment of ethnic women, and certainly there's more than enough documented cases of the widespread rape that has taken place on the part of the military historically. I wonder if you have any theories on what is motivating this behavior, what symbolically is the rape Serving. So not just to steal to harass, even kill, but the rape component, what do you think is leading to that behavior? And what does it mean?
Marlar 1:30:10
Oh, well, I think it's also a man pride. You know, if you look at the Civil War, like, your ethnic leaders are awesome men and women, the military men, so isn't men fight. So as I mentioned to you earlier that if you Your daughter is rate is the father reputation that if you do, you don't do your job properly to protect your woman your daughter. So you are, you know, your status as a man is a you know, is undermined by that. So I believe that this is the same attitude that the men, military men, I know, especially if the soldiers have been doing it, it's also it's just also, you know, it's just a theory that I also, you know, observe from other countries is that is, is the strategy to attack men by using women. And if and the rate is, the rate is, you know, a good weapon to do it, because it really undermines your status as a man, so it's meant to men fight. So if your, your woman is raped, then you feel your role as a man. And that superiority and authority is undermined by that. So I think that that's my, that's my understanding.
Host 1:32:02
That's very interesting. It's very interesting. You've also written about the usdp, and you spoke about them briefly earlier in the conversation, this is the political party that is connected to the military, and how they were pushing forward in previous years, the race and religion protection laws, can you describe those in fuller detail here, what exactly those were doing, and what the reception of them were.
Marlar 1:32:31
So, so that there was there was the law is a package with four laws. And one of them is the monogamy, monogamy. And other loans are like, reproductive. And, you know, essentially, it aims to, it targets the Muslim men, marrying NEMA women and having many wives. And the argument from the group, which is Mahabharata, and many of you may be aware, is that the Muslim population is growing, and takes root in Mr. Society. So as a Buddhist, you know, as a Buddhist society, they must do something to respond to it. And that they came up with, of course, there are a lot of other things that they did. But this is in terms of woman, right, this is that something that they came up, and they successfully lobbied the usdp. And they manage the president to sign off eventually passed. So there were lots of criticism from the international society and also women rights organizations, because one of the Lord said that, if you are if you want to marry someone from different religions, you must have you must seek approval from your again from your father's or from your guardians to Mary, l and the other person, you know, has to conform to their religion, etc. So it essentially undermines women and their decision making power. And it again, also is, you know, backlash to women, freedom and rights in society. So there were a lot of resistance against to the laws, but it passed. And it also is, was partly because they were growing anti muslim sentiment in the system. And then for the lobby group, it wasn't very difficult for them to convince that it, you know, will do good for the Norma Buddhist women. And then the women, some of the woman bought that, because there was monogamy law in it. And then they like that law because they were also stuck, desperate.
Host 1:35:29
And it's worthwhile to note that monogamy was definitely practiced in earlier Burmese society all, all of the Burmese kings are noted for all of the concerts and the Queen's and the princesses that they had. So this is certainly not something that's isolated to a non Buddhist religion. But so to clarify, today, in Myanmar, is it illegal for a Burmese woman to marry a Muslim man?
Marlar 1:35:57
Ah, it's not illegal, but you have to seek permission from your parents or your partner will have to convert to Buddhist or, you know, to any religion. So I think I cannot say very specific component part of the law. But essentially, it is it is restriction for women to marry who they want, and for women to decide their own life.
Host 1:36:42
And you mentioned this was promoted by the usdp. What about those years when the NLD got in and they were in greater leadership positions? What was their view on this this public policy?
Marlar 1:36:53
Well, this is something that I cannot make. No point. But this is something that some of the some of the advocacy groups who were with who, you know, very close, very close relationship with the policymakers, they, they have more insights on that. But in my view, and also talking to other people, they were very, there were a lot of hope, from the right groups to revoke these laws, and they must have advocated for it. And they were also advocating this profound law, antiviral prevention of anti violence against women law, to replace those four laws, but it never was actualized. And, of course, there are lots of, you know, complications and, you know, discussions, but it never was the sexual. Right,
Host 1:38:06
I see. So this coup that has been launched, it's nowhere near as successful. And let's hope that it never is. But if it's a thought experiment, we were to live in a military controlled me and Mar after 2021. How would you imagine them ruling specifically in regards to the issues that we've been discussing here?
Marlar 1:38:29
Well, definitely, many with human rights violations. Unfortunately, we will continue seeing those tragic, you know, stories, and from our issues for the day issues that we have discussed. Definitely, it's not a good look, and good situation for and for women. Especially, we started already, you know, receiving and also hearing about all these sexual violence experiences in a detention center, and in other conflict affected areas, even in the urban areas. You know, there were lots of cases about, you know, not alleged rapes and sexual harassment, but the is the thing is that nobody will be able to protect those issues. And although, you know, we are only you know, hearing these types of things are happening. And I think it's not difficult, you know, to say that this is how happening, because, look, what have they done, you know, to them ethnic minority women look what they have done to the, you know, Rohingya population or you know, between Rakhine or other minority population? You know, it's not something that, you know, we say it, there is already evidence that they did know those, you know, horrible things and they will continue to do it. And the thing, the problem is that protection? No, no, there is there is no, no protection, not just for women, I know, this population as a whole, no, it is a nightmare.
Host 1:40:54
Yeah, yeah, it certainly is. And you have spent your career researching gender equality and women's rights in Myanmar. What are you hearing now about how female protesters and prisoners have been treated? And how is what they're facing now different from their male counterparts?
Marlar 1:41:15
Oh, well, we, we started seeing, you know, all these social media reports. Thanks to the little movements, that. So, I think that this, because this is the first time that I see that women are being openly discussing about these issues in the public. So So in terms of the cultural or social norms, landscape, you know, it's a, it's a good progress, they started talking about it openly. But, but also, on the other hand, this is the, this is the reality, that, that women being treated harshly or beaten, you know, compared to the male counterparts, and I would say that the, the military, again, is using, you know, like, rape as a weapon. Again, this is again, you know, going back to the, you know, the, the, the main fight again, because, if you rape women, you not only destroy a woman, or you also intimidate the father's brothers, you know, like, this is a, you know, like, it's a huge win for them, you know. So, I think is also a good strategy to intimidate women, not to engage, you know, in this in this type of thing. So, I think that they are now using this weapon again. And they are not afraid to use it, because they have been doing it for a long time. But they have never been held accountable for it.
Host 1:43:36
Right. So you think that this is actually some sort of policy and order that's given from the top to us as to us with real intention.
Marlar 1:43:48
And they wouldn't have this, you know, like, this type of how to say they're definitely using it as a weapon. But they wouldn't have the same interpretation as me, because I interpreted more from the feminist perspective, but they definitely have other perspective that is to harass everyone. And
Host 1:44:19
there's been a lot of commentary about how the protest movement has brought together these disparate groups in ways we've never seen before, as well as how those with privilege particularly from the more Buddhist men are gaining awareness as from others about how their different background how other different backgrounds have suffered, such as the Rohingya, and there's been public apologies and awareness on these issues. Are you finding anything similar regarding the issues we've been discussing here? So in other words, have you seen any greater sensitivity or understanding on the part of men towards the issues that the women have long face in society at this time have a more public reckoning?
Marlar 1:45:04
Oh, well, I think there is a small, growing part of a growing population, where they started, you know, getting insights, and enlightened by this by this event, and they Oh, this, you know, they are from this demographic who is already, you know, like willing to affect all these all these things, all these, you know, acceptance towards LGBT or acceptance towards women rights, etc. But what I what I'm more worried is what I'm more worried is the is there you know, outside of social media? Because that is the, you know, that is the setting that where all these power dynamics, you know, you know, play. So, we don't, we can't be so sure that the fact that women now you know, in the frontline of the protest, they are actually fighting for the collective freedom. Right? So when you are when women are being part of the collective freedom, everyone appreciates, like, like, because every vote counts now, because the main enemy is a military dictatorship. But I wonder, what if those women started fighting for the individual freedom? What would the, you know, the, the, the man reacts to that, because this is the you know, because when women ask for more individual freedom, that means that you have to let go, as a man, you have to let go of some of the privilege that you are enjoying, and the status cannot be will not be the same anymore. So that's the thing that I'm very interested most. But it has not, we have not come to this point yet.
Host 1:47:48
That's why I was also wondering if even in the preliminary stages, there are men who are starting to recognize their privilege, because we have seen people from the more Buddhist backgrounds, especially young generation z, that is recognizing their privilege in terms of their privilege state of religion or their privilege state of ethnicity, and acknowledging that they have not suffered the ways that others have. And I think that probably in all fairness, this is a bit easier to see and to grasp from this, this ethnic or religious background, that that is something that can be acknowledged a bit more easily. But I'm also wondering, because this is a time of overall reckon recognition on many aspects. And definitely, with the LGBT, we've seen that in in new trends and seeing how that's come about. That's, that's been quite different from anything we've seen before. I'm wondering if even those preliminary steps of men in some form, especially Generation Z, starting to see like, oh, as a man, I'm privileged in ways I've never understood and where that then translates into how that affects society and law and family and everything else. That's another discussion, but just in those preliminary opening stages of awareness as anything like that come about that you've seen this year.
Marlar 1:49:10
Yeah. I also, you mentioned about LGBT community is also Yeah, we, it's interesting, given the, you know, suppression towards the LGBT community, that when they came out on the street, you know, all dressed up, you know, like, I think that the society as a whole we take pride, you know, in that, you know, when we see LGBT community, you know, fighting for the collective freedom. And there is, of course, this is the beginning. And, and the problem but as we mentioned, just now is the generation D right where Typically, is present on social media. And also they are also the generation that is no more exposed to the global, you know, discourses and other, you know, different type of perspective, they are more tolerant. But as far as we mentioned, you know, will they'll translate into laws and policies and real life or real life discussion, that's, that will be something that, you know, now that, yeah, very, you know, interesting, you know, to see how would, because, if we look at the policymakers, they are more or less the generation, not saying that the older generation, they grew up with all these, you know, how men should behave, and, you know, they only know, two kind of sex, men and women. And so I think that, although we have seen, you know, these venues, you know, that, you know, that can be opportunities, as a leverage, you know, to be used in the later policy discussion. But it still is a, you know, good thing, you know, I would say no, to see, you know, LGBT involvement is a window is a window of opportunity, I would say, and they can always, you know, make references of their participation. And as I'm saying, I also use it as a library in order to do more acceptance, and to gain we know, equal treatment from the policymakers.
Host 1:51:59
Right, well, that's very interesting. And I thank you so much for joining us today to talk about these issues. It's been really wide ranging, going back all the way to talk about some of the historical structures and looking at the transitions of government, how that affected people in the family life in Burmese homes, and then understanding the implications, since the coup of where all this lands there as well. So thank you so much for bringing all of your research and your thoughts and perspectives on this very important issue.
Marlar 1:52:32
Oh, thank you also, for giving me this platform and also, with stimulated by very thought provoking questions. I enjoy the conversation a lot. Thank you.
Host 1:53:19
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