Transcript: Episode #69: The Third Wave

Following is the full transcript for the interview with these guests, which appeared on January 5, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

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Host  00:06

Just a quick note before today's show, we have transformed our entire platform to respond to the current crisis, and increased our production of both podcast episodes and blogs. But we cannot do so without your support. Please consider making a donation or contributing as a volunteer to support our active engagement. at this critical time we are complacent and

Mary  00:27

don't do really aggressive containment and mitigation. The number could go way up many many million to be isolating patients emphasizing social distancing. The coronavirus outbreak is now that COVID-19 can be characterized as a pandemic easily one of the worst affected countries. The pace business supply chains are being disrupted around the globe this combination of people outbreak is now Hello Insight Myanmar listeners. My name is Mary and I'll be your guest host for this episode on COVID-19 in Myanmar, and what is being done to try to slow the spread. I am a Canadian international development worker and lived in melamine, the largest city in Myanmar southeastern region for two and a half years. Now based in Canada, my heart broke in February with news of the coop and I started looking for ways to support the pro democracy movement. In addition to assisting my own colleagues in country and along the Thai border, I joined the global movement in Myanmar democracy, a group led by the youth of the Myanmar diaspora. This group works on advocacy at a global level, fundraising and movement building for support to CDM and humanitarian response. In today's episode, we look at the context and politics surrounding the current wave of COVID-19 in Myanmar, as well as the personal lived experience of surviving the Delta verything yang got our first guest, Allison.

Alyson  02:11

So delta is, as shown by the CDC has been is a lot more of transmissible

Mary  02:17

a second year med student shares about the impact of this particular wave in Myanmar and the strain on the health care system. Our second guest Michaela friend

Michaela  02:27

saying hey, this person tested positive and then after that sort of

Mary  02:32

gives us an intimate look at the fear and pain of treating COVID-19 without any external support. Our final guest is Sandra when the coup happened through experiences I've had in Myanmar, a med student and co founder of GM for MD, who will talk about some of the responses to the crisis and political actions we can take support healthcare workers and the pro democracy movement. So please sit back and enjoy these interviews. Whatever

Alyson  03:09

karma that is good, you have done this will protect you. It's certainly a teaching for the world of interconnectedness. We will realize the nature of intervening and interconnectedness. It's really an opportunity to come back to our own intentions to our own art, to our own body and mind in this moment. Remember, peace in the face of suffering. Change for sure for the better. We can perhaps see an opportunity in this situation. Their meditation practice, it's a beautiful gift to the world. People can help each other and help mutual support in the time of harsh they learn how to support each other, become closer to each other. I do see some positive aspects of this Corona crisis in the world. We all sitting in one boat. We see that in a sense that brings people also closer together. We are all looking out for each other. People getting closer together and watching out for each other. We have more time for our families for the community and time to meditate Hey, good day.

Mary  05:49

Hi, um, could you just start off by introducing yourself to the listeners.

Alyson  05:54

So my name is Allison. I am currently a second year medical student in Texas and I am Burmese Chinese American citizen.

Mary  06:07

Excellent. And in your opinion, from your perspective, what is happening in Myanmar right now, with COVID-19,

Alyson  06:18

though, basically what we're seeing currently in Myanmar is the result of a complete healthcare collapse, because the military has been targeting health care workers for many months. And the COVID infrastructure has basically been obliterated.  So no tracking very little testing, the code facilities are just not up to par with what is needed right now. And unfortunately, the Delta variant has really taken a hold on the country. And that's resulted in many unnecessary hospitalizations and deaths, and just many more tragedies that the people of Myanmar don't need right now.

Mary  06:58

So going into more detail what had been happening in Myanmar to respond to COVID-19 before the coup. So in the first and second waves, what what kinds of measures did we see?

Alyson  07:11

Yeah, so we definitely saw a lot more preventative measuring measurements taken against COVID by the the civilian government before the military coup. So you can see the stark difference in how much more organized clean and pristine the COVID quarantine facilities were, there was much more accurate tracking, as well as testing. And obviously, there were less opportunities to spread the virus because there are no arbitrary arrests, or there are no mass protests against this military government. So there's less opportunities for the virus to spread in that way. But unfortunately, it's definitely spiraled in the past couple months for

Mary  07:55

Yeah, and what is it about Delta that is like making it unique from other variants.

Alyson  08:05

So, delta is, as shown by the CDC has been is a lot more transmissible. And it actually can, it has been shown that there might be some sort of evasion techniques that can have against even vaccines. So, you know, I know some people in Myanmar who got a vaccine for COVID, and they still got infected with delta. So it can, it's definitely just more much more transmissible and death. And there has been some evidence to show that it might be more deadly, as well as the fact that it could evade some vaccine defenses. So the possibility of breakthrough infections are definitely much more probable than the past couple of variants that we've seen.

Mary  08:50

Right? And like what part of the population is it affecting? Is it mostly much older people? Or is it also younger people this time?

Alyson  09:01

So it's basically everybody. younger population in the past has definitely had a bit of a leg up in terms of being protected from severe symptoms of delta that, you know, even looking at America. A lot of the hospitalizations happening right now are young people. So delta is definitely much more deadly to everybody in general, but we are seeing a lot more young people get infected and with severe infections as well. And that's, that's very concerning.

Mary  09:38

Right, um, and we I guess we don't know for sure what's happening in the prisons in Myanmar, but what what would you guess is taking place with COVID-19?

Alyson  09:52

i? Yeah, I definitely think the prisons are majorly underreporting. The numbers of COVID right now, you know,  we have no social distancing and prisons, no mass, you're living in very, very terrible conditions. And it's honestly inhumane. And I'm guessing that and people aren't even getting the medical care they need in the prisons, like if they're showing symptoms, like, the military definitely will not hospitalize you or give you the treatment you need, unless it's absolutely probably too late for you.  So what I'm guessing is that prisons are just becoming a huge, super spreader hub for COVID. And it's definitely very tragic. See? Right. Um,

Mary  10:43

I've heard from people in Myanmar that a lot of people with these serious cases are trying to avoid the hospitals. So what options do people have if they if they develop these respiratory issues? And they're trying to stay at home? Like what what are they doing what works?

Alyson  11:00

I think that some things that I've heard that people have been using and you know, Myanmar, and also just the Southeast Asian region is anti parasitical ivermectin, which is very interesting. They're currently doing some studies on that. And ivermectin is definitely a bit more accessible and cheaper. In for normal person, you know, to be honest, there's not a lot you can do, which is extremely tragic. And just very sad, because it's something so preventable. You know, if you catch it early, if you start showing symptoms early and get the treatment you need, you, your chances of survival are a lot better. But for the people in the market, just a lot of the options for treatment have been hindered by the lack of resources because of the military government.

Mary  11:51

It's very tragic. Mm hmm. And there's people have been using devices called oxygen concentrators. So maybe you can just tell like the listeners that because I wasn't sure what that was either. So maybe you can just describe what that is.

Alyson  12:09

Yeah, of course. So basically, the main thing that COVID really affects is your lungs. So a lot of people will have respiratory symptoms, along with COVID. And a lot of the time, it can get very severe, so they aren't getting enough oxygen in their body to supply their tissues needed for normal functioning. So what oxygen concentrators do is basically kind of supply that oxygen for you, because you're not your lungs are not able to take enough oxygen from the air. So oxygen concentrators are very helpful. And they're extremely effective in helping people breathe whenever they can't, because of COVID.

Mary  12:48

So would you say it's kind of like the the at home version of a vent, like not a ventilator? I know that those are very intensive and intrusive, but it's kind of like a take home version

Alyson  13:01

of that. Cut? I don't know if I would. I don't know if I would say that necessarily. But I think that I think that it will help you breathe without needing a ventilator, if that makes sense. So I think it's like, I wouldn't say the take home. But I would say it's definitely like a level. It's a level up from it. In a good way. Yeah. Okay. I

Mary  13:25

see. I see. Yeah, I was I wanted to talk about it. Because I know it's been they've been very popular items for people. And just to it's something that here in North America, we haven't had to think about how to, if any, if we got to that level of of ill we would go to the hospital. But

Alyson  13:44

yes, in the hospital, usually it will supply you with that oxygen. So it is something used in the hospital for, you know, severe, moderate to mildly severe, but not extremely severe. Whenever you have an extremely severe case, usually they will put you in a ventilator. But for most cases, if you're, we have something called an O to oximetry measurement. So we measure your o to saturation. And that number should usually be in the 90s ideally, a view and above 95. So whenever your shoe starts dropping, that's whenever they start supplying the oxygen and through the oxygen constant. Yeah,

Mary  14:25

these these devices have also sold out in Myanmar because people are becoming their own nurses and doctors and trying to take care of their, their families and neighbors. Right.

Alyson  14:39

Yeah, that is correct. And, you know, I don't think that the people of Myanmar and ordinary civilians should be doing that. That is something that in America, usually trained medical professionals will do. So it's just very sad to see that people who've just had to fend for themselves in this case.

Mary  15:01

Absolutely. Yeah, it makes you feel very fortunate to have all the infrastructure that we've got set up and the support is happening with vaccinations in Myanmar. Is there any hope for a mass vaccination campaign? Because I know that countries, other countries in the area have been actually quite successful in their vaccination campaigns. So what is the hope in Myanmar?

Alyson  15:30

Yeah, of course, they can talk about that. So just a little bit of background, you know,  Jamar, before the military coup was supposed to have one of the best vaccination plans in the Southeast Asian region, like they were already starting to vaccinate health care workers, they had a whole system where they basically were saying you can't skip the line.  So you know, healthcare workers were getting vaccinated, first and, and elderly, and then on and on to just the basic necessity and urgency for the need to get vaccinated. Unfortunately, whenever the military coup happened, that vaccination plan kind of was thrown out the window, and the military kind of sequestered vaccines for themselves, which is unfortunate. But I've heard reports of other countries trying to contribute vaccines to Myanmar. I know that there's certain vaccines that people are kind of starting to have to buy by themselves. I'm not exactly sure how that works. And it's not really exactly a verified news source. But just from rumors of word of mouth that you can buy certain vaccines like sinopharm, and things like that. But to be honest, I'm not completely sure about a mass vaccination campaign right now, considering the just the tension between the military, the people, and also the nuj trying to also be a part of that vaccination plan. It's a very complicated execution, to be honest. And there's a lot of moving parts that are involved with that.

Mary  17:08

Yeah, and what are the risks to having this country like Myanmar, that it's so almost impossible to cooperate with, like internationally? With vaccinations? What is the risk of having a population with such a high rate of incidence I guess of COVID.

Alyson  17:27

So the biggest risk that I see letting Jamar go unvaccinated completely is another variant coming out that's even worse than delta. And that can even that conveyed even more treatments, as well as our current Pfizer majorna. All the other vaccines that are happening right now. And they're still movement in and out of the country, with people fleeing, which obviously no one can blame them for doing that. And just with movement out of the country, it is very possible that another variant worse than delta could spread. So the whole world needs to pay attention to what's going on and try to get the people who are vaccinated because we want to end this pandemic. And with Delta, we've kind of taken a step back. But running a country with EMR and go unvaccinated will definitely there's definitely a huge risk for causing another various spread among Southeast Asia first and then the rest of the entire world.

Mary  18:28

Yeah, it will just highlight again, most most listeners know this, but interaction between Myanmar and China is very high. Lots of lots of business links there. There's border crossings into India currently out of chin state. So it borders with like a lot of the world's population. What kind of campaign or activities have Myanmar american medical students been carrying out in solidarity with the health care workers in Myanmar and students not only healthcare workers in Myanmar, but also students? Right?

Alyson  19:11

Yeah, so back in April, we actually coordinated what we called a white coat strike. So basically, metal healthcare professionals in general, not just medical students, but all healthcare professionals were asked to wear their white coat, take a picture with the three finger salute and hashtag it white coat strike. Maybe you just talk a little bit about their experience in healthcare or just spreading awareness about what's currently going on in EMR, with healthcare workers being under attack. And I am still happy to say that campaign was so successful. There was a lot more participation than I thought there was going to be to be honest, but we just had like, over 1000 hashtags on Facebook, there are a lot of hashtags on Twitter. It was definitely spreading among all social media platforms. So that was wonderful. And that was one of the biggest things we did to spread awareness. Other than that there have been donation campaigns for oftentimes, and just to help healthcare workers in general gain medical supplies that they so desperately needed, and they still do desperately need at the moment.

Mary  20:20

And why do you think that these doctors and nurses continue to risk their lives to try to help people? Why? Why are they taking that gigantic risk?

Alyson  20:32

You know, I think that goes back to just the concept of health care in general. And what you know, as a medical student, what I was taught, basically, the first day day one wishes, the concept of do no harm and the Hippocratic oath, which is to just, you know, help everybody, as a medical professional, you have a responsibility to maintain the health of your patients no matter what. And I think that, despite the risks, these health care workers in Myanmar, are willing to risk their lives because they know that the civilians and Umar are, they need to stick stay alive, and there needs to be some sort of resolution to the coup. And for that to happen, there also needs to be like, there needs to be civilians that are willing to do that. I think it's definitely the passion and the personal responsibility, we all feel to treat all the sick, and just every patient in general, because, you know, as a medical student day one of medical school, they really hammered in to our head that our lives are being dedicated to this cause to maintain the health of our patients in the world in general. So I think that doctors and nurses and EMR just like doctors, and nurses everywhere else in the world, they're just passionate about maintaining the health of their patients, to better promote, just to better promote just health of the country in general. So I think it's definitely just the personal responsibility and just a passion to further jobs, which is extremely admirable.

Mary  22:19

Well, and do you have family in Myanmar? Yes, I do. So I'm just wondering, were they did you have a lot of people reaching out to you? Or do you still have a lot of people reaching out to you because you are the medical student? And they're asking you what they should do? Have you experienced this kind of? And how are you? How are you coping with that?

Alyson  22:47

So my parents are actually doctors. Okay, so my friends are doctors, so they reach out, my family reaches out to them first before me. So I haven't had to deal with that. But I think that it has definitely affected me because I do see a lot of my family members getting infected with this virus. And it's extremely scary. Like, like I said, one of my family members was vaccinated, and she still got infected. And I wouldn't call any of their courses of sickness and mild, or just like a common cold, you know, it was definitely a more moderate. And it's very scary, because one of them was around 30 years old, which is, you know, you would think that that wouldn't cause anything serious. But he almost had to be on oxygen, it was extremely scary. And I think that, to me, it's definitely influenced my outlook on the COVID situation in the US it personally, I my feelings on it are just that I don't understand a lot of just a lot of the discourse that's going on, on around COVID. In the United States, they feel like people just haven't seen a lot of people haven't seen the true effects that delta can have on just your mental health and just emotionally and even physically, you know, seeing your family member get sick, and knowing that there's not a lot that you can do for them. Because you're on the other side of the world. It's just, it's a new feeling of helpless. And it's really sad, to be honest. And I really hope that you know, the United States doesn't ever come to that stage because it's really hard to deal with.

Mary  24:31

Do any of your friends and family in Myanmar ever asked you like what is happening in the US? Are they ever curious why there's people that don't want to get vaccines?

Alyson  24:44

To be honest, no, probably because they're occupied with their own with their own situation, which is much much worse. And I definitely don't blame them, but I, you know, I don't understand personally. And I think that that's It just has a lot to do with perspective. Just like I said,  a lot of the people in the United States will never experience seeing their family members suffer because of something so preventable. And in a way, I kind of pity them, because they're never gonna know, the feeling of just that, that feeling of empathy and just have a new I feel like it's like, almost in a way kind of love. Because like, you kind of realize, like how much you really love the people around you to the point where you just feel extremely sad whenever you see that.  They, they're suffering like this. And it's just Yeah, it's a really, it is a lot of emotions. And I personally have felt like this. And I think a lot of my friends who are Burmese are in the diaspora have also felt like this. And we just, we just see the situation in the US so differently, then I think a lot of people do.

Mary  25:58

Yeah, I've seen on Twitter, a lot of people who call both countries home, using actually the same word you just we used was pity to feel this pity that there's this lack of community care, and this lack of wanting to take care of each other. Yeah. That's interesting. Um, back to Myanmar, what are the long term implications of like a, such a high infection rate going down even like years to come? Like what what are going to be the after effects of so many people getting COVID.

Alyson  26:42

So I think that's divided into two fold, right? So to be honest, we don't even know as a world what the long term effects of getting a COVID infection are. So basically, we're going to see what I'm thinking at this point. And this is an expert opinion, just something that I've observed is that people who have, who have had a lot of long, had a lot of severe lung issues with their COVID infection, we're gonna see a lot of health problems with their lungs to come like you already see, there's x rays of people infected with the Delta variant. And you can see that their lungs show a lot of fibrotic tissue, which is not a good thing, that basically means that your tissue is not taking in as much oxygen as it needs to in the Euro to your oxygen capacity, and your lungs is going to be severely affected, which is going to affect your day to day, day to day life. On the other hand, you also see that there's a thing called long COVID, which is basically people experiencing these really unknown and kind of, kind of, I won't, I won't say weird, but like just symptoms that they weren't expecting to feel a lot of it has to do with fatigue, just tiredness after that. So I can see a lot of that happening to the people of Myanmar. And I think the other aspect of it that will affect a lot of people, like probably nearly the entire country is just the emotional aspect. You know, seeing a loved one die or seeing a loved one suffer like that, and seeing multiple loved ones suffer like that, that just has a lot of psychological implications that will affect the mental health of a lot of people in the years to come. And I think that we're going to definitely see those effects start to start to manifest itself in a couple years from now, which is really, really tragic.

Mary  28:35

So really, what what me and my needs to recover now is really strong health infrastructure, both in caring for these like respiratory issues, all those weird issues, they are weird issues. I've also heard of people having like, the worst yeast infections of their whole entire lives related to COVID. Like it's a strange, strange things as well as the the mental health infrastructure on a mass scale. And Myanmar doesn't have it right now. No, they don't. I really, really wish they did. Yeah. So what would you say going forward in an ideal situation, in a stable situation? What would Myanmar need to do to to respond to what has happened already?

Alyson  29:40

So I think Firstly, there should be a mass vaccination campaign and it should be accessible, very accessible, pretty much I think it should be free, to be honest. So just a mass vaccination campaign. And I think that along with that, there might be some misinformation going around. I know the United States teachers. So just also alongside of vaccination campaigns. Just a misinformation debunking campaign for individuals who just may not who may have some misconceptions or just may not understand the implications of getting vaccinated versus not getting vaccinated. Although I feel like the response to a mass vaccination campaign would be a lot better in Myanmar than the United States. So I'm not sure how much we actually need that. I think that, you know, you can see the the current issues going on me, to me hospitals, we need a lot of hospital bed capacity, we need ICU capacity. We need doctors and nurses to not be completely scared of getting arrested or killed because they're doing their passion and their job to care for people. And we also think that there should be more funding in an ideal situation put into getting adequate mental health resources for individuals going through loss and going through just the trauma of seeing family members get COVID. So I think those are a lot for things that are definitely very pertinent to me and important that in an ideal situation.

Mary  31:13

Right, right. And are you? Are you currently involved in any other advocacy work, other than the white coat

Alyson  31:21

strike? So I have been involved with medical advocacy and global movement from Jamar democracy. We're not currently as active right now, just because just because of certain situations, there have been. And also the COVID situation is just is really not the best right now. So I think that we've been trying to get information about COVID out to the people of Myanmar, to better help them in the fight. But yeah, that's mainly the the biggest thing that I've been involved with in in with medical advocacy is just with global movement from Myanmar democracy, doing the white coat strike, and also just making infographics and spreading the word about what has happened to healthcare workers in Myanmar.

Mary  32:15

Great in your advocacy work, have you come across or learned about like, what kind of role the international community can play in in helping to respond to this COVID crisis in Myanmar?

Alyson  32:34

Yeah, I think that, you know, first of all, they there's definitely money needed to be put into donating for COVID supplies and just things that will help combat COVID in the civilian population, because the military is still very much actively ignoring that situation. So I think money is, first of all, one of the most important things but you know, if you can't monetarily donate, I think awareness is a huge thing, just spreading the word about what is going on. And like the state of the COVID situation in Myanmar is so important in that doesn't have to be through social media that can be through word of mouth, to family members, or to friends about what's going on. And I think they're the what the international community can do is also get vaccinated. Because I think that that's just a little part that you can play in helping and helping the situation because, you know, I see all these vaccines in the US just not being put to use, it's really painful to see that because I know that a lot of people, not even just in Myanmar, but and like other countries could really use that vaccine. So if you have vaccines available to you, I think that that is getting vaccine is one of the most important things you can do. Because I think it's one, it could be a sign of solidarity. And you know, people might not agree with me on that. But I personally think that's like a really an emotion, a symbol of solidarity to the people of Myanmar, because you're doing your part to prevent further infection. And that, you know, a lot of the strains, the new strains that have come up have been because of just one person, and they mutated the virus, you know, their immune system and somehow mutated the virus, and that spread. So you do not want to be the next spreader of another variant of COVID. So, getting vaccinated is one of your best bets to not do that and to help the people BMR

Mary  34:45

Yeah, that's a nice way to think of it. And that's what we've been saying all along, right is those of us who can get vaccinated need to because there are people who can't and right now the people of Myanmar can't, they don't have access to it. So you're Right. Yeah. Yes, the sign of solidarity. Great. Alison, was there anything else you wanted to share? on the podcast?

Alyson  35:10

Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course, I think that, you know, the activists on the ground have been doing so much work to not only just to spread information about what's going on in Myanmar, like, I feel like I couldn't have gotten a lot of the information I have or been updated on the situation if I wasn't following certain activist accounts, on social media. So I think that a lot of the credit to just being able to make some of these movements possible, especially the white coat straight goes to the social media activists who continuously risked their lives to inform the rest of the world about what's going on. And I think that we, we really couldn't do it without them. And I think that a lot of the credit should go to the people on the ground and the people, especially the ethnic minorities, activists, who are just informing the rest of the world, what's going on in the rural states and everything like that. I really, really appreciate them so much. And I know that they are risking so much, just to just to put it out there. So I want to give a huge shout out to them.

Mary  36:21

Yeah, definitely. Well, I think, unless you've got more to share, we're gonna wrap it up. Does that sound okay? Yes. Thank you. Great. Thank you so much for having me. Of course, thank you so much for sharing some of your medical expertise with us on the Delta variant and what's happening in Myanmar. Thanks for talking a bit about your personal experience with your family there. It's been very, very insightful. And I hope you've convinced some vaccine hesitant people maybe to go and do it in solidarity.

May Oo  37:02

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. When light bought by either, Mr. General and Chief, I don't know where or how you are in these dreadful days of bloodshed. But I hope you can stop for a while to put down your guard and defenses and listen to a monk's words of reason. Mr. General, the power is now in your hands. You grabbed it as one picks a beautiful flower and blew. Our land and old's Grace has fallen under your grass, but withers the way parishes and your clenched fist. You see, in order to stay strong and healthy, this kind of flower needs to be kept alive and free. From all that's doing injustice and harm. This flower has shown the world again and again, the need for their roots to stay firm and nimasa soil in order to thrive and grow many fulfilling a whole garden of flowers. Instead, we see soldiers trampling all that's precious. No rules except the rules you've made them believe it's wrong Mr. General have you know eyes to see the damage. The beautiful garden in all its charming diversity has been sacrificed or power, imprisoned with violence by a marshal dog barking day and night. Listen to me. The flowers are now closing their paddles slowly adjusting. The sun is not there anymore has become hidden behind clouds of mistrust and destruction. You're trying to convince that our power is your power, to rule to own and to control of sorry, Mr. General, but we've already made our choices, who to trust what future to believe in and all voices were assured to count. The next four years we were convinced of the gift of less violence of more justice and freedom. A new web of power was allowed to assemble from the people with the people or the people and had become the sprouting roots of our nation. Now you and your soldiers took that away, denying us the trust as so many generals have done before you forcing us once again to live with guns in our backs. 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Mary  45:31

We've invited this next guest on to the podcast to share with us her own personal experience of living and nursing herself through COVID-19 in Myanmar, in these last few weeks, we are going to withhold her name and as much as we can about her identity just for her own security. But we're going to ask her some very, very personal questions about about what living through COVID-19 has been like in Myanmar. So welcome to this episode about COVID-19 in Myanmar.

Michaela  46:15

Yeah, so thank you so much for having me on. So I was sick within the last month in July. And I got it right before I feel like the boom of everyone having it in Myanmar COVID I got it a few days before that. And I basically got the call from a friend saying, hey, this person tested positive. And then after that, sort of, started contacting all of my friends, you know, treating it, like, I given an illness to a lot of people and just really worried about that whole impact that I could have had on the community. So I had to contact you know, my, my colleagues, my, my friends, and you know, everyone and just sort of prepare. So it was sort of a panic, I remember going right to the pharmacy to just pack up on whatever I thought that I would need vitamins, paracetamol, all the things that sort of people were recommending, but at that time, I didn't really know what you were supposed to buy, you know, I think we've gone through this COVID experience and Myanmar very differently than the rest of the world where, you know, everyone has gone through this massive wave and in the West, but people here haven't really had this, you know, explosion of cases and deaths in EMR yet. So this has been a very traumatic wave where I feel like everyone was learning what to do. And also it's very different than the past variance. So we're all learning really fast, and we have very little references and support, we have to figure it out on our own. So I remember the day that I found out I had it I went to the pharmacy went home and we just prepared we didn't leave the house we locked the door. And you know, we just sort of prepared for the next 14 days. So remember that you know when I went to the pharmacy as well before I blocked out my doors I went to the market just bought everything that wouldn't perish for a week and then just started you know, thinking about you know, what could the next two weeks entail for us so it was a very scary experience. I think for myself and for others however, I feel very privileged that I got it right before many other people knew they'd gotten it. So I was able to you know, still access supplies in the pharmacies I was still able to ask friends who are healthy to go shopping for me and just assist but I think if I had gotten sick and week later I would have not been that lucky because that's when really things started to shut down. I think the yeah around the time that I got it they just started to say okay, like restaurants are going to start to close and so we thought we had it we didn't know if we had it but we knew we weren't feeling right. Um, and so I ordered a test from online and so I was able to test at home and then that's when we know we confirmed it. But luckily everyone that I contacted didn't get COVID meaning all the people that I contacted you know what before when I think I got it and over the weekend I thought oh my gosh, I'm God gave it to all these people and I didn't so I felt so lucky.

Mary  49:22

It's nice to know that you're not a super spreader.

Michaela  49:25

And you know exactly it was probably the biggest relief of my life because yeah, you feel like you know some people I think in the last waves people would really withhold if they had it and like get really scared and they wouldn't tell anyone but for this wave I feel like people you know wanted to know because you know that there's the danger of what it can do when there's no functioning health system is much greater risk than the previous wave. Like there's you couldn't really not tell people I remember when I when I actually did tell people you know, it is that kind of a panic, but I think a good panic among people that like oh my god, I need to start tomorrow. Prepare. So I think it was really lucky for that. But our experience with COVID was really traumatic. I think that people don't really talk a lot right now about, well, you do see it in social media, but it's like the trauma of oxygen is one thing, but just the trauma of, at what point do you do what, like, what's the next step, you know, especially if you don't have an oximeter. So I remember I, you know, was really stressed, I started getting really bad anxiety throughout it. And I started to note take day by day, what was going on? And then finally, I felt Calm down, you know, like, you know, noting our symptoms, noting what's happening, noting what medicine we're taking, noting how we feel you became your own nurse. Yeah, exactly. Because there's no one else to nurse. I mean, I was calling doctors and Rod getting their assistance, but, I mean, they can only just make you mentally feel okay, they can't, you know, help you. But I'm very thankful. So, you know, I think like, all the symptoms that they described, I think most people, including myself, are experiencing them, you know, delta has quite a range. But it wasn't until day 10 that we started to feel okay. And I would say, okay, but just a little bit functionable or functioning. And so yeah, but I mean, to this day, we're still struggling with the aftermath of it, you know, almost a month later. So I think, I think people, you know, really focused, of course, understandably, on, you know, people who are dying in oxygen, but also people who are recovering. There's this idea older, okay, now, but we don't know enough about what's happening in EMR to actually know how people really truly are, and what they're experiencing and what the trauma of this experience and what what it's doing to our mental health. I think one thing that I noticed going through this experience is th  there's a lot more effects on your mental health than, than is discussed, in addition to everything else that's happening. And yet, you know, you have this really traumatic health experience on top of all that we don't know the effects that that's happening on our mental health, and just anxieties and, yeah, so I think that that was my most memorable symptom.

Mary  52:21

Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, let's, let's dive a bit deeper into that the trauma and the emotions. So let's say when when you first got that call, that someone that you had had contact with was positive? Like, what? What kinds of feelings? What went through your mind?

Michaela  52:43

What were you picturing? I think just the question you had mentioned, am I going to be a super spreader? Because I was already out at that time. And so what do you do just turn around and, you know, go straight home? So I think it was just that worry of like, Oh, my gosh, like, what impact could I have had on the community? So I think that was my name, like, just fear. But then also, you know, just like I mentioned, you know, what is what kind of COVID do I have? And then also, what is delta? I mean, I think, a month ago, no one really was talking about Delta Airlines and EMR. And I think that it was just like, Oh, I really didn't prepare for this, you know, you're preparing mentally for so many situations and scenarios. And we always knew COVID was coming. But it was just this idea of like, Oh, we put this in the back of our mind for so long. And now we have to deal with it. And that just that I just felt overwhelmed. You know, just, you know, we're going to add this on to everything now. Okay. Yeah, here we go. You know, we have to just deal with it head on and get ready. And like I said, just feeling really lucky that I went into a pharmacy and their supplies and that we could order oxy meters when no one could A week later. So yeah, so yeah, I would say, yeah, fear and just feeling overwhelmed. Yeah, I think overwhelm is the word of the moment for sure.

Mary  54:13

So you have lived through a few COVID waves in Myanmar. And I just was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how this one is different for the people because we have already talked about we all know that it's different politically, it's there's many factors that have made it different, but for for the communities and the people. How, how is this one playing out differently?

Michaela  54:47

I think that the biggest difference is that in the first wave, there was a lot of trust in the Ministry of Health and sports and in the government response and there was a lot of you know, You know, telling people, okay, like, Let's trust that they're doing their best. And yeah, I think that there's just a lot more trust. And  right now there's no trust, we don't know who to trust. And I think that that lack of trust is probably the biggest difference is that we feel very isolated and alone. And we have to deal with this on our own. And we have no support.  And I think that that's the biggest difference. I mean, even by the second wave, even though people didn't want to follow restrictions, there was still this idea of like, well, they're probably doing their best for us. And they've, you know, they've been able to develop all these testing centers and all these systems that weren't there in just a few months. And now we see just a total unraveling of any system. And we see absolutely no response to how we are going to support people.

Mary  55:49

I think that's a great answer. I think I think you've really isolated, what has changed for people. So we talked about, that you were lucky to have access to doctors that you could contact doctors living outside of Myanmar. But what what types of information would you have access to within Myanmar? What? How are people learning anything about this, this variant that's coming through and how to deal with it,

Michaela  56:25

social media, for better or for worse? You know, they're learning everything through social media. And I think there's some work being done on tele telecommunications services for doctors to communicate with patients. But even within that, this goes back to this trust issue, where, you know, some some doctors who are supporting these services were arrested recently. So now there's this question of how do we get connected to doctors safely for patients and for the doctors, but I do think social media has been really great at sharing information. But sometimes that information, like certain antibiotics, being bought up in the pharmacy and panic buying, you know, some of the downfalls of the social media sharing. But then also, I think that, you know, there's there's a lot of people, a lot of organizations really trying to support as best they can. And so there's, you see a lot of updated translated materials coming up on social media. But all in all, I think that there's nothing in addition to social media, I mean, there's no other option, right? Maybe some people use radio, I mean, radio has really made a comeback in the last few months. But I think just in terms of, you know, mass accessibility, it would be social media. Oh, and then also, I think, you know, support from, from other countries, like, I think there's just kind of this solidarity element. So you know, Southeast Asia is experiencing this, not just Myanmar. So I do think, you know, once information kind of comes out from Thailand, then that shared within EMR because they might have the capacity, or they definitely have the capacity to be doing more research on what's happening. And so we're not getting any awareness of what varies, we really have we just know, our symptoms aligned with Delta, but they're, from my knowledge has been no confirmation of that's what we have, we only follow what's happening in Thailand or following what's happening in Bangladesh or India to get an idea of like, what, what's going on here, because there's no research being shared with the public and being publicized about what's actually happening. I mean, even right now, in terms of the numbers of cases, we don't really know, the, the numbers, I mean, it's Yeah, so I think I think regionally, that's also helping share some information as well, because they're also experiencing this at the same time.

Mary  58:45

Yeah, it's another reminder of how interconnected

Michaela  58:49

the region Exactly,

Mary  58:51

and how important it is to work on issues and problem from a regional perspective. Absolutely. We also talked about you feeling fortunate that you were out trying to get supplies earlier. What have you seen just in the last week or so what what is happening in your, your community, and in communities around you.

Michaela  59:19

So when you go into the pharmacy, and you ask for the core medicines, the core vitamins, you know, the core antibiotics that people are suggesting you buy, there's no no availability of these medicines and vitamins at this time. And even if they are available, like for example, vitamin d3, which is like the big vitamin, everyone suggesting everybody buy, you know, if you want to a bottle of that, or a pack of that it's 30,000 jet, which is totally out of the budget for most people. And so that's a, that's a big barrier. I mean, there's some areas where they're selling medicine for, you know, three, four or 510 times the price. You know, even flu medicines that, you know, paracetamol with some extra, you know, ingredients in it are being sold for 5000 for four pills, and so it's just totally not accessible to a normal person. So you see a lot of the price increases you see in the unavailability of supplies. And, and yeah, I mean, even oximeters, I mean, without support from outside the country, we wouldn't be able to buy them anymore, you have to have those sent in, but you have to risk getting compensated, because that's called a controlled item. Now, even sending face masks, face masks over the border is something that can be taken away from you, which is really, really shocking. So that's sort of what you see right now. I mean, I'm, I don't know if this has been discussed yet. But the egg price, in the middle of July went up, you know, one egg for 500 jet, which is something that would cost usually, when I'm 50, or 200 jet. And so you see egg prices skyrocketing, or you can't buy them anywhere. And those are just you know, basic foods that people would buy every day. So you see this change in like, you know, market and panic buying. But then also, you can totally understand why people are panic buying, you know, in the last few waves, you would be like, don't do that. But in this situation, you're on your own, you have to do what you have to do for your family. And so this idea of people buying oxygen, what other options you have, if you want to go to a private hospital, you have to put a deposit down before they even look at you. And so there's really no options for people during this time. So, I mean, you even see in some of the the, the convenience stores, they're selling body bags, so they're changing what they sell, to help people during the time is very dark. But that's the reality of what people are doing right there. Because they can't get the support that they need from any service. And if they do, it's risky. So yeah, we're seeing a lot of really scary stuff, and even pharmacies that are really accessible to the people. For example, one hit, you know, today, this pharmacy was, you know, had many people because people are trying to help their families, and it got shut down. So it's just, it's just very shocking. But the one thing and   on a positive note, is that Myanmar is the most resilient country I've ever encountered. And so after all this happened, you all of a sudden saw the, you know, a boom of online pharmacies and a boom of doctors, you know, trying to support in any way that they could. So I think that there is a lot of positive reaction. And you know, you see this in the social media community community. So that's, that's a really uplifting point.

Mary  1:02:47

Yeah, that I was going to ask about that as well, because I was still in Myanmar for the first wave, the first lockdown. And the response from from Myanmar's, like civil society groups in order to make sure that people who weren't working had food and access to things they needed was pretty incredible. So there was there was a really big movement of just generosity and, and social wellbeing. Absolutely. Has that has that been possible in this way? because things have changed so much. So

Michaela  1:03:28

I think you still want to see it. When you see like the white and the yellow flags being out, so people who need food, they put out a certain color flag people who need just help because someone is dying or has died, they put a different flag out. So I do think that people are doing their best, but that comes with a risk. And so I think that people are trying to help but it's a huge trust issue where trust in fear that if I help people, I get arrested. So that's the really the struggle, I think people would want to help each other more. But with the current circumstances, it's very difficult to help others right now. Although I think people are doing the best that they can, given the circumstances. But I mean, as the UN had pointed out this week, you know, 50% of the population in two weeks could have it, how can you help each other in that situation? If one in two people have it or I've had it? I mean, it's a very challenging as someone who had to nurse them one while having it. I don't know how you could help other people. You're just trying to stay alive yourself. Yeah, that's truly scary.

Mary  1:04:37

In your case, so you were able to get all these supplies. Were you able to like give them to somebody else that needed them?

Michaela  1:04:45

Yeah, definitely. So um, you know, going back to the social media, communication channels, you know, people are always putting up Hey, can you help me with this, or can you help me with that? And so, once I was finished, and I knew Okay, probably You won't need these antibiotics, I would offer them out to someone else. And then also, you know, offered out extra test kits I had, because I realized that I can test positive for a very long time. So, you know, just passed out the things that I didn't think I needed anymore. Because Yeah, that's what you have to do. And then, you know, even though we've recovered, and now we're like, Okay, how can we help people, but when you have it for two or three weeks, you you don't have the energy to help others. You have to just focus on yourself. And I mean, I even cut Social Media out for weeks. I couldn't. It's too too much. So I think once you get better, you're like, Okay, how can I assist others? So we pass medicine on we pass anything on, that we think would be helpful for others?

Mary  1:05:45

Yeah. Do you think that a lot of people yeah, are trying to share what they've got? If they can?

Michaela  1:05:53

Definitely, I think a lot of people are sharing, you know, with their families or with their neighbors. I mean, even us, we're like our oximeters on low, and if anyone needs it, you know, because in our building or in our neighborhood, because, you know, that's what you have to do. People don't have access to everything that they need. So I do think that that's happening. Great. But

Mary  1:06:18

there was something else that you mentioned that I think is interesting, because I've seen some advertisements and campaigns coming out of other countries, maybe out of out of India, that address the stigma of COVID-19. And trying to combat this fear of telling people or the fear of people who have tested positive. And you mentioned that you are not seeing this so much. Is that right?

Michaela  1:06:48

Yes. And no. I mean,  I think that  at this point, everyone knows someone who has died. You know, I don't think anyone has been spared. Sadly, I think everyone knows someone who's died, or most people have someone close to that that hazard as well. And so I think that there's this idea of, you know, solidarity now that, you know, we are kind of in this together. However, of course, the fear still stands.  You know, I think that now with the current updates about it being as contagious as the chickenpox, I mean, it there's a very understandable fear of others, you know, when you see someone that's had, and you don't know, if they're contagious, and they're respecting that 14 day, I think that, you know, people have a logical fear of wanting to just run away, especially if they're older. And so I think there's like a logical fear now. But I also think that there's just not enough awareness of what delta is doing to this country as well. So it's really hard to get rid of that stigma. I do think it's really important to tell people but then also, I, I think that there's just not enough knowledge that that people can rely on right now. And that's credible, to really get rid of that fear either. But I do find a lot of solidarity. You know, I think that people know that this is affecting everyone, and no one can escape it. So yes, I think yes or no.

Mary  1:08:15

There were people from the NGO community listening to this, and they were wondering, what's the best way to reach me, Mr. People in communities? Do you have any suggestions? for them? It's a great question about how to get information, especially information right now, how would you get helpful information,

Michaela  1:08:40

I think, be creative, I think, be creative and trust the local people. Of course, the international community maybe knows a lot about what's happening. But the situation in Myanmar is extremely unique. And I'm sure that they know that. But just consulting community organizations, about what they think is best in that, how to implement that and just really giving a lot of trust to them, that they know what to do. And I think that that is the main thing I would always suggest is just trust that the local people know, because this isn't their first struggle. And even though they maybe it's their first pandemic, but it's still very much a struggle that is affecting the entire community. Um, so, so yeah, I think I think being creative as well that you know, I think like one thing I noticed in the first week was people would make posters and they would do this whole like template thing, but I thought it could be like a little bit more creative than that. I think they could really find ways to engage with the youth engage with children, and, you know, engage with the community in a way that is more more influential, I guess. I just feel like the efforts were great, but It doesn't have the impact sometimes to just make flyers and things like that. And so I think that that's just one thing is just collaborating with each region individually about what they think is the best approach. And just giving them supplies as much as you can. So I guess that that's, that's really my my main suggestion to the NGO community. So you were caring for your roommate? Who got hit a little bit harder?

Mary  1:10:31

Yeah, with the virus than you did. So were there ever times that you were planning for a worst case scenario that if you would have had to take him to the hospital, but there's no hospitals? Yeah, I mean, what were you thinking you do? This is, what a lot of this is the decision that a lot of people in the room are having to make, right now. So like, how do you think about this?

Michaela  1:11:02

Well, I think also, it's really different for different people as well. And so I think for me, like, for me, it was like, Okay, well,  what what point do we send someone to the hospital and, and that decision alone is, is extremely scary, because we don't know what what the hospital is going to look like, we don't know what they'll do. And then you're sort of public, and then you're also exposed to what's happening around you. You know, seeing dead bodies, which is what people were telling us we would experience. So it was very much like going into a hospital, that would just be the worst experience. So why would we do that? But what if we had to. So I think that this is a really hard decision for people to me. But for me, personally, it was never an option. Like, I just was like the thing that I really didn't want to do. Because all I kept hearing was stay home, this as you can probably give the best treatment if you can find oxygen, which Luckily, we were able to rent for an emergency situation. And in my eyes, I thought we have the medicine. We have the oxygen, we have the oximeter, we have everything here. There's nothing else a doctor can do for us. And we're putting ourselves in a security risk of hospital.  And then if we get to the hospital, we have to stay there for two more weeks. So it's just like this idea of like, well, that would be how much that would cost and just it just like all these questions are going in your brain, but biggest thing for going to the hospital was security. Why? Why would I put myself in that situation? So I think that that. Yeah. I mean, I guess security? Maybe I wouldn't be at risk. But I just think it's just this idea. I don't know. It's just you don't? You? Don't you don't know who's right. Yeah. You don't know who's there? You don't I don't know. There's just, there's so much unknown about that experience that it just was too scary. So I think maybe it wasn't a security risk, it was just more fear of like, what would that look like? Like, am I gonna see lots of death? And that's scary in itself. So I think that that sort of was the process. So I think we kind of remote from my mind said it was no, I don't go there. So I'm going to prepare everything at home. So that worst case scenario, we're here. And then everything is dealt with here. Whereas a game, you know, for them, it was more like, you know, I need to go I need to go and it's like no, who would you call? Do you like counseling calls? You know, you're okay, you're okay. Because I think people don't really talk about me, am I just how long? How long it really can last? And so you're just struggling for days and days, and you just feel like it's never going to end? And so it's really hard for people in that experience to make a logical Yeah. And

Mary  1:13:47

by the fifth day of being really sick. You're like, I'm over this.

Michaela  1:13:54

Yeah, so I think I think like my, my list of, you know, when we do this was very different than my roommates. But at the same time, they had a fever, and I did it. So for me, it was like thinking of logistics, right? And thinking about, you know, just being afraid of hospitals, I think I would just open my social media, and it would just be something scary in a hospital and I didn't want to go there. And the only options that were private hospitals, which would cost I think some people are saying 10 to $20,000. And how would I pay for that, you know, financially and, you know, logistically and looking at what I saw on social media, it just, it was just too scary to consider.

Mary  1:14:39

What kind of bigger impacts has the COVID pandemic had on Myanmar society? We've talked a lot about kind of the individual experience but what are you seeing on

Michaela  1:14:52

on the society level? I think the greatest thing Impact I've seen COVID-19 have on societies on education. Schools have been closed for, you know, over a year now. I mean, they reopened for a time. This year, however, with very low attendance, even reported by the official numbers, it was very low. And I think that that impact will be felt in society very soon, you know, we're looking into the second year without schools, and even though some, you know, private education services are happening, it's still not reaching the young people in the children. And I think that that's going to have a big impact on the future of this country. And so that's the biggest thing that we see. And also just thinking about that, you know, in the western other countries, even Thailand, right, they open and closed and open and close and have the option of online learning. So they're able to get information about, say, COVID-19, throughout this whole pandemic, but an EMR you haven't had that option, you know, from the beginning, the previous or the penalty, led government or civilian, that government had made a decision, there would be no online learning. So there's really been no information sharing, except for like, the TV channel they made with the community about COVID-19. So I think there's some things maybe, you know, through some forms of multimedia, but there's been not a lot of knowledge sharing about the pandemic. So there might be a lack of awareness about like, what's happening in some areas. But then also, you know, what is this doing to the children of this of this country. So that's been one of the biggest impacts. And then also, just the idea of travel, right, you see a huge isolation, you know, parts of Myanmar were blocked off for many, many, many months. And so he started to see like this isolation from last year were these communities were allowed to travel between these communities very easily, for months and months. And so you kind of see it that effect on the economy as well. And, you know, even before the coup happened, the economic crisis was very real, and was very much experienced by millions of people. So I think that, you know, the lack of transportation, and also, the impact on people's jobs has been huge. And so I think educationally and economically, there's been a massive impact on the community. Even before the curve, so I mean, the people started, you know, in a really difficult position, before this third wave even came about and so it's, yeah, it's so so I think that that's the biggest impact that I've seen.

Mary  1:17:38

Yeah, yeah, a lot of impacts everywhere, economically, without a lot of those big hotels closed down the middle of last year, even before anything. Right.

Michaela  1:17:52

Right, exactly. And yeah, even just the idea of migrant work as well, right, you know, economically on a local front, but also international front, they can't travel as easily. You know, the Thai border has been shot for a long period of time. So it's been a huge impact not only on domestic work, but people's ability to travel outside to find work. And also that stigma, right? I mean, there's been a lot of discrimination towards people from Myanmar, in in Thailand and other in in Malaysia, you know, for bringing the virus to these areas. So they're blamed a lot at the beginning of this third wave for bringing and also in the second wave as well.

Mary  1:18:31

From your perspective, are there any populations in Myanmar that are being especially impacted by this

Michaela  1:18:40

COVID wave? So one that's made the news this past week has been the outbreak within prisons. So I think that that is one of the most affected groups at this time. They're being denied, you know, health supplies. And there's also, you know, some some big names of people that are thought to have had COVID, like Shawn Chanel and Danny Fenster. And I think that we don't know a lot about it. But we do know, you know, through leaked information that COVID has spread throughout all the prisons, and that they're not getting the resources that they need. And I think that that's a big risk, because the already the conditions within the prison are very challenging. So I truly couldn't imagine as someone who survived COVID I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be in the prison during this time and worrying about this. So I think that that population is being deeply affected by this. In addition, I think that IDP communities are also being really affected by this more than others because they are not able to access materials and resources and medical supplies, like maybe other areas can because they might be on the run. And so, you know, I think that that's one of the biggest challenges right now is like how do you support those communities with medical care as well? They're on the move. Um, so I think that that would be that the two areas that are being deeply impacted by COVID-19 would be the prisons and the IDP communities.

Mary  1:20:12

Thank you so much for sharing that really personal, really emotional, really traumatic experience with Insight Myanmar and the listeners, because we do get to read and we do get to hear on the news about the situation, but we rarely get to hear about this firsthand experience and what it really what it really feels like to go through this kind of crisis. So thank you so much for sharing that with us.

Michaela  1:20:45

Yeah, no problem. I mean, I hope that this is heard by many, because I do think that the world will be impacted by what's happening in Myanmar, especially regionally. But also, you know, looking at what's happening in North America and other parts of the world, you know, so I think that what's happening here is really relevant. And we're looking at a long a long term situation where we need to work together and coordinate together and, you know, support people because if we don't take care of those who don't have privilege to get vaccines, we'll never get through this. And I think that that's the core message we need to really support those who can't get vaccines, or there's no solution in sight in my eyes.

Host  1:21:38

After today's discussion, it should be clear to everyone just how dire the situation is in Myanmar. We are doing our best to shine a light on the ongoing crisis. And we thank you for taking the time to listen. If you found today's talk of value, please consider passing it along to friends in your network. And because our nonprofit is now in a position to transfer funds directly to the protest movement, please also consider letting others know that there's now a way to give that supports the most vulnerable and to those who are specially impacted by this organized state terror. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form of currency or transfer method. every cent because immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. Donations go to support such causes as a civil disobedience movement CBM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. Or if you prefer, you can earmark your donation to go directly to the guests you just heard on today's show. In order to facilitate this donation work, we have registered a new nonprofit called better Burma for this express purpose. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is now directed to this fund. Alternatively, you can visit our new better Burma website, which is better promote one word.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me slash better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and cash app. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to those respective accounts for email us at info at better burma.org. In all cases, that's better Burma. One word, spelled b e TT er, bu r Ma. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration.

Mary  1:23:54

We're going to welcome Sandra Cong. Sandra, can you start just by telling us a little bit about yourself? Sure. So I'm a Chinese Burmese American second generation immigrants, meaning my parents immigrated from Myanmar after graduating from medical school, and I was born and raised in Texas, and growing up a smaller town in North Texas. I didn't have much of a Burmese community around me. And so most of my exposure to Burmese culture was through my parents. And then I want to stay the currency a couple hours away from my home. And that is where I came to understand my identity and culture a little bit more I think their food and a little bit their religion practices Buddhism. And when the coup happened through prior experience I've had in Myanmar through public health projects related to hepatitis and chronic diseases. I first saw how and saw how the healthcare professionals on the ground are really leading this movement, but also, and how long term if it was to continue, and the military was to stay in power, how that would continue to strengthen. So we continue to harm the healthcare system and be aware that over the past few years has had so much progressing, rebuilding, restructuring, and reforming its communities and connections with with community groups. And so over the past six months now, I've been leading global movement from a democracy with my co founders, Jen, Jen and Frank and I work with a team in raising one's a new mom and keeping the story alive, as well as addressing some of this cultural apathy that I was experienced with my own identity through the virtual space. Yes, thank you. That's great. What can the Myanmar diaspora living in the US do right now to help people in Myanmar that are living through the coup and now the COVID crisis? That's a great question. And I think the same actions at the beginning of the coup remain just as relevant now. And so whether you are Burmese or not, or whether you're angry, even been to Myanmar, keeping the story alive, like I mentioned, is incredibly important, especially with so many events happening on mainstream media and on social media spaces. It's good among your own circles to keep updates coming along. And so there are a lot of Instagram accounts, Twitter accounts, Facebook pages that are very active and providing on the ground daily updates, and so on, Jim, from these steps that we've listed a couple there. And through following these accounts, you'll see a lot more pop up in such thing and forms and, and showing support for those who are affected by the cool. We think about drugs, addressing the needs of those in the ground. I've also you do have people all across the world who have family, friends who are being affected and targeted. And so just checking in on them, showing support for their mental health and having children and being on is incredibly important, it's time. And then the US there's actually a really important bill. So now calling that Bonneville hopefully getting releases in this this month or the next month, and it's a very important piece of legislation that will strengthen tangible actions, pitch from Congress to the executive departments. And so this includes improves Nigerian aid sanctioning of very large oil and gas enterprises. And as the name Orland gas price has been one of the next big companies that us lobbyists are targeting right now. As well as stronger accountability mechanisms, which is incredibly important as we eventually moved to tribunals and justice mechanisms later on. So this bill is incredibly important. And what we've been doing in the past couple of weeks is just scheduling calls with our senators. And they've been very receptive hearing stories of those in the international diaspora and good friends with VMR. And why this bill is so important. And so we need all of those voices as much as we can get so that this bill can finally be released and showing our own representatives senators, that there's consensual support constituent support for this bill. And hopefully, those who are listening that they can get involved. There's a Facebook page called the US advocacy Coalition for BMR. And they're a group of activists very well trained in lobbying who are offering one on one support in reaching out to to Congress. So definitely get involved there. And beyond that, there's a lot a lot of fundraisers happening. And civil disobedience movement is what is keeping this movement alive. And so beyond that support for financially for these participants in the movements. There's a big big wave of COVID-19. I'm striking me in my right now. And so with the military seeking health care system there, there's a lot of support needed for medical supplies, oxygen tanks, etc. And so also on Giovanni's page, we have a couple of fun, which is listed. And so they're really creative ways to also give other fundraisers rather than just simply donating money. For example, there monasteries and churches around the US they're hosting fundraisers, many weekends, they're sticker fundraisers going around. And so finding them creative needs, you have to help support the cause is also just as important. Yeah, there's been a lot of activity and action lately on this Yeah, that's right. I wanted to ask about what you know about what is happening to the health care workers in Myanmar at this time, and over the last few months, what has their experience been like? Yeah, so since the beginning of the coup, they, as I mentioned, have been leading the protests and boycott movements that are very much shaking the military in their control of the country. And so because of this,   healthcare workers, doctors, nurses, even medical students, who are the frontline of the protests, are one being targeted by the military. And so its streets and in their homes being ducted, in the middle of the night, captured, and many of them we haven't heard from since or since actually confirmation of their passing.  And for those who are healthcare professionals, that we all abide by a code of ethics and commitment to our patients. And so, with military control of many of these hospitals, these doctors are not even allowed to treat their patients. And when they do set up makeshift clinics, they also have been targeted by the military physically. And so a lot of these professionals are in mourning and hiding living in fear. And, as I mentioned, also, the community in crisis in Myanmar is really exacerbating right now. And so doctors who are trying to treat patients for oxygen, are actually presented and targeted to very peripheral commands. And even the patients themselves, there were a lot of reports of patients staying in line waiting in line for oxygen tanks, oxygen pipelines, military has cut off, and they're being shot at by the military. So this is just a few examples of how  people's right to health is being blatantly attacked. And what we see now is that your long term is really going to affect the long term health of the country and other people. And so this is why we see this as not just a euro crisis, but a global health crisis, especially in that with having the Delta variants and the more run without any control, there is that risk of further transmission and more mutations of the virus. That's right, and I'm sorry to put you on the spot. But do you know what the current projections are for Myanmar? I know, a week or so ago, they were as high as 50% of the population was expected to, to have COVID at some point. Do you know what it's at now? Yeah, so I hesitated to report projections as complete accurate just because there's a lot of factors that go into projections. Right? See, like if I went to contacts move into people, reopenings reopenings have certain businesses, and we already are experiencing a severe underreporting of tests, confirmations and deaths. But what I can say is that, while I'm not sure how accurate the 50% is of infection, we are seeing in increasingly an exponentially growing number of infections in the country and whatever numbers we see now, these are like we said, under recordings and so over the next few weeks, you will see continued quick spread of the of the of the disease if you don't have the vaccination treatments delivered properly, appropriately. Your group GM for MD has some link to end up at the moment. I think you've been in touch with especially the youth representatives. What is end up doing in this crisis in the COVID crisis specifically, to to help what have they been able to accomplish? Yes, so we've been fortunate to listen on a couple of meetings. And so this was a couple of weeks ago, and so I'm sure a lot more has evolved since then. But then he was able to procure 6 million vaccines and former COVID task force with I think health organizations across the country. And I started delivering based on recordings I was seeing on social media and media spaces, which is incredibly exciting. And so these COVID taskforce And hopefully this will improve destination distribution to a more equitable distribution, and especially among border areas, not only just in the main cities. And so that was a really, really positive use of news. Sure, yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's really good to know. Have we heard anything about what the plans are for vaccination in general in Myanmar? I mean, so you did just mention that the end that energy is distributing some. What about forgetting further inland? From the borders? Do we know if there's a plan? So I hadn't heard from that last meeting. They were explaining a couple of mechanisms that are private just for security reasons, but they are working on them and working with the relevant stakeholders based on that conversation. Right, and absolutely nothing from the military sec. As far as a plan. I can't confirm that there's no plan from the military. But there's just difficulties with their just their their administration of it, and how that would be recognized in the military so far. So what I've heard mostly is from energy sides, military, right? Yeah. Yeah, it will be interesting. What are even if there was a plan put in place, what would be some of the challenges in getting vaccinations to, to some parts of the population? Yeah. One being outreach and being able to get throughout the country to deliver vaccinations. So this relates to problems even before the coup happened. And so while I was working in Myanmar for public health projects, one was related to Hepatitis B. And so I advertised it as a clinic. It's a virus that causes of chronic liver disease. And it affects a couple years ago, like 6% of the population, and were quite large. Unfortunately, this disease is entirely preventable and could be radical if we are able to state the proper prevention measures. And one way to prevent this is through a vaccination series that is almost 100% immunity to patients, and sometimes the vaccine and so not just in Myanmar, but around the world, you are seeing hesitancy on long vaccinations due to a lot of false facts about vaccinations that have proliferated among communities. Maybe even then, among rural areas, there is more of a presence of traditional medicine that leads to skepticism of more modern medicine, treatments like vaccines. And so I know that while connecting with some of those screenings and testings, there's a lot of education that was required trust building with communities in order to deliver these vaccines. And so luckily, there are infrastructures and communities in place that haven't started conversations, but it is still a significant barrier in terms of once you get the vaccine in giving it to to the people and helping them understand why it's so effective and important. thing. So board and the taskforce hopefully through their relationships with ethnic minority leaders, they're able to overcome that mistrust. Yeah. Good. We've talked a bit about the oxygen shortage or long lines to get access to oxygen. What are some of the reasons there's such a shortage of these medical supplies? And just basic, even basic medicines like ibuprofen? what is causing this? Yeah, so one is lack of ability to push your supplies across borders, sometimes a lot of medications, and especially the nonprofit's are received through other countries. And so with the closing reporters, you're not able to receive this message anymore in a safe manner. So, of course, we feel a lack of supply. And  with high demand, definitely you're seeing that shortage of medical supplies. And so, obviously, it's so important to continue supporting these fundraisers who are trying to do on private news, get supplies and money through the country. Good. Is there any truth to this idea that the military has been hoarding these things? So we have heard of cases and reports where the military has prioritize their own comments for treatments for covered treatment supplies and such. I can't myself completely confirmed. But with regards to like COVID vaccines, for example, we definitely have seen these they administer to military folks versus prioritizing the standard international standards of age and chronic disease, which shows even more so how the health and rights of the citizens anymore with loyalty and power will continue to be ignored. So do you still have family in Myanmar? I do. Yeah. Yeah. So how have you been dealing with the experience of watching this all happen from afar from faraway? Yeah, I think one response was how quick and you look at your health, which is what inspired me to Sanjay Gandhi and more so seeing other people who had these sorts of domains of learning how to do how to provide them the platform to do so. And so  it is really hard hearing these updates day by day that are progressively worsening and getting more severe. And so not only letting that drive and motivate me, but also may not push me too, too hard of a balance with work in life. And so we're seeing that among a lot of people who are previously involved with advocacy, they've had to take a step back because of a lack of work life balance from before. And so I think also meaning on working gives you peace and calm reflection. And so for me, that is reflective, journaling. It's basing, you know, also positive parts of life, like school starting classes. And I think having that moving forward, at the same time, has been a good balance for me. And so checking in with the people I know on the ground as well. And hearing their stories, I think helps also ground me a little bit as well, when I do often get stories from social media versus more of their personal takes on the situation on the ground. Great. Do you feel a kind of solidarity with the health care professionals that are in Myanmar at the moment? Yeah, as a rising medical students and seeing my fellow students with their strong passion for health, continue to to protest, it shows to me what it means to really commit to being a healthcare professional, what it means to be a doctor when he needs to, at times having to put the safety of your patients first before your own. And that's something that was shown through COVID-19 across the world, but even more so now with doctors battling both this raging pandemic and also the raging military at the same time. So it's a definitely led me to reflect on my own privilege of being able to pursue my passion for medicine without having to think about an oppressor tackling me and targeting me, and also really shifted my drive to my interest in public health and human rights to continue pushing us forward in whatever work or departments that I get involved in. Looks nice, do you hope to be able to go back to Myanmar and do some public health or, or health work in general? Yeah, I have got a lot of value, what ways I can effectively and sustain up to global health projects within EMR and so Otherwise, I would have to go back and continue engaging with the community partners I was able to a couple of years ago. And so I always take like, there's a lot of talk about global health and the ethics of it with a lot of people just you know, parasailing in voluntourism. And so I definitely want to see that change in the award having stainable collaboration between partners to us and partners here in the morning has been really fruitful and helps to keep that collaboration alive in the future, one day. Yeah, that makes sense. That's good. Back to the politics a bit. Can you speak at all to the ASEAN reaction to, to the COVID crisis in Myanmar, that's kind of spinning out of control and affecting its neighboring countries? What what has as Ian's response been? Has it been satisfactory? Yeah, to be blunt. Now, we among a lot of as the series don't have much faith in ASEAN. There's a lot of factors for that one thing, we have a strong consensus rule, there's, you know, very complex political dynamics between the member states. And so even within their own membership outside of Myanmar, we weren't seeing like a unified response among member states. And so it is disheartening to see your lack of solid action from isn't supporting a mark in his time. This is why my advocate spheres are really are focused on pushing forward these other mechanisms. There's different NGOs and NGOs working to do over vaccinations to do to do more. Yeah, yeah, it's been interesting. And this, this is a little bit off of the COVID-19 topic. But just because you're representing this youth movement, what do you make of the protests in Thailand at the moment? Do you think it's fair to say that they were inspired by what's been going on in Myanmar or related to it in any way? I think it's just a matter of the whole Asian region you're seeing threatening of democracy and human rights. Today, we learned a lot more about what you need to know as activists in the rafino sphere and in Vietnam. So the protests that are happening right now in Thailand, they've actually been going on for quite some time now. And even with the coup first beginning, VMware on some time, Todd was experiencing protests today. So I'm not sure if it's just inspiration for VMware, but more so like, you're just seeing this tiredness from from those in in the countries of having to continue to face these pressures again, and again. And so this is where having and showing international support is so important, so that they feel like the world is with them with them. Right? Mm hmm. They're all kind of in it together in a lot of ways. We're all in it together. Freight um, something I was thinking about they use that was the there's, there's like a lot of misinformation going around about what can cure or prevent COVID-19 in Myanmar, do you have some examples? I know I was there at the further first wave of it. And I remember there was a very heavy focus on garlic and ginger. And if you ate lots and lots of garlic and ginger, you wouldn't you wouldn't catch it. What other kinds of of misinformation are people getting? Yeah, is interesting. I haven't heard too much about misinformation in EMR alone. But I do miss measure misinformation about the vaccine itself is that one because of the method of COVID vaccine deliveries, some of them are mRNA DNA based meaning they do have mechanisms that can replicate your genes in the body, but it doesn't mean that it's changing your genetic information. It just means it's replicating the information so that you can create the necessary components of your virus fighting machines. So that they can create the necessary proteins and destroy the virus itself. There also were concerns about the effects of it with pregnant women as well. And so there have been researching points over the past couple months that I've shown how it will affect the baby itself. And then there's also a vendor's overall. Mistress doesn't actually itself, like I mentioned, and how it's been tested and wrong, certain populations. And so I suppose in the vaccines and the US, I believe, some of them are getting delivered to to be more eventually, there has been efforts to ensure that a diversity of ethnic groups are represented in clinical studies. Of course, it's not perfect, but it's not just like one sided towards one ethnic group, as well. I think in Washington, I heard a lot of how quickly the vaccine was rolled out. They think that it wasn't tested Well, I wasn't really passing all of the security measures. But if they were, it just means that a lot of the red tape and measures would take to that really slow down the process of bringing vaccines were amplified, just improve the speed at which the vaccine was was approved. Well, I think I thank you so much for for sharing this, we touched on some of your medical expertise and some of the political arenas you're working in and as well as your, your personal, the way it's affected you personally. So thank you so much for sharing all of that. And yeah, thank you so much for having me on here. And we wish you the best of luck, where everyone's really rooting for GM for MD, to succeed and to be this power of youth, especially Myanmar youth in Myanmar diaspora youth and being the future of the movement. So good luck with that. Thank you so much, Barry.

Host  1:52:36

You've been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we'd appreciate it very much. If you could rate review and or share this podcast, every little bit of feedback helps. You can also subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcasts on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you get your podcasts to make sure you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes. If you can't find our feed on your podcast player, please just let us know and we'll ensure it can be offered there in the future. Also, make sure to check out our website for a list of our complete episodes, including additional text videos and other information available at Insight myanmar.org. And I also invite you to take a look at our new nonprofit organization at better burma.org. There was certainly a lot to talk about in this episode, and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a POST request specific questions and join in on discussions currently going on. On the Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. You're also most welcome to follow our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter accounts by the same name. If you're not on social media, feel free to message us directly at info at Insight myanmar.org. Or if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we could share that forum here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible. Currently, our team consists of two sound engineers, Mike pink and Martin combs. There's of course that Kessler content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey helps with that team and a special Mongolian volunteer who was asked to remain anonymous does our social media templates. In light of the ongoing crisis in Myanmar, a number of volunteers have stepped in to lend a hand as well. And so we'd like to take this time to appreciate their effort and our time of need. And we're always on the lookout for more volunteers during this critical time. So if you'd like to contribute, definitely let us know. We'd also like to thank everyone who has assisted us and arranging for the guests we've interviewed so far. And of course, we send a big thank you to the guests themselves, for agreeing to come on and share such personal powerful stories. Finally, we're immensely Be grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We want to remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own, and don't necessarily reflect the host or other podcast contributors. Please also note that as we are mainly a volunteer team, we do not have the capacity to fact check our guest interviews. By virtue of being invited on our show, there's a trust that they will be truthful and not misrepresent themselves or others. If you have any concerns about the statements made on this or other shows, please contact us this recording is the exclusive right of Insight Myanmar podcast and may not be used without the expressed written permission of the podcast owner, which includes video, audio written transcripts or excerpts of any episodes. Also not meant to be used for commercial purposes. On the other hand, we're very open to collaboration. So if you have a particular idea in mind for sharing any of our podcasts or podcast related information, please feel free to contact us with your proposal. If you would like to support our mission, we welcome your contribution. During this time of crisis, all donations now go towards supporting the protest movement in Myanmar to our new nonprofit better Burma. You may give by searching better Burma on PayPal, Venmo cash app, GoFundMe and patreon as well as via credit card at better burma.org slash donation. You can also give right on our Insight Myanmar website as all donations given there are directed towards the same fund. And with that, we're off to work on the next show. So see you next episode.