Transcript: Episode #68: You Can't Go Home Again
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Jessica Muddit, which appeared on August 18, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 01:11
You're listening to a special version of the Insight Myanmar podcast covering the military coup, the ensuing protest movement that has developed during this crisis, we're ramping up the production of not only podcast episodes, but also our blog and other social media platforms. So we invite you to check these out as well. All the other projects that had been in progress prior to February, have since been positive definitely to focus entirely on this emergency. But for now, let's get into our show.
May Oo 02:14
Freedom by Langston Hughes. Freedom will not come today this year, not ever through compromise and fear. I have as much right as the other fellow has to stand on my two feet and own the land. I tired of hearing people say let things take their course. Tomorrow is another day. I do not need my freedom when I'm dead. I cannot live on tomorrow's bread. Freedom is a strong seed planted in a great need. I live here too. I want my freedom just as you
Jessica 03:19
me. A Good Day.
Host 03:54
I'm pleased to be joined today by Jessica mudit, who recently published a book called our home in Myanmar. She lived in Myanmar during the pivotal transition years between 2012 and 2016 and worked for a wide range of publications in the role of writer and editor including the Myanmar times the global new light of Myanmar, the democratic voice of Burma, Misa ma Irrawaddy me and more Bangkok post as well as the UN's new service called Irin. Jessica, thanks so much for joining us today on Insight Myanmar podcast. Thanks for having me, Joe. Yeah, so although you had had little prior connection to me and Mar, before going there, you described in your book how earnestly you endeavored to try to stay there despite the difficulties. And to give the listener a window into what you were facing. You struggled with getting employment, finding enough income to live in what was becoming a very expensive city. And then there was the whole visa debacle, which I think is probably familiar to any expat who was living there during that time. So Given the extent of these difficulties, and that you didn't really have a prior background of studying or writing about the country, what was the strong factor that drew you so much into wanting to stay as you did in spite of all these challenges?
Jessica 05:14
I was determined to be there for the 2015 general election. And I wanted to see it through. So I arrived in 2012. And I also I wanted to know, Myanmar well, so I don't, I didn't want to go to the country, you know, for even a short stint, which I would consider a short stint a year. I wanted to be there at least until the election, and then the idea was that Shepard I would just reassess after that time, because it was so it was such a, you know, leading up, there was so much anticipation, and it would have been an incredible moment where everything that everyone was working for, would culminate in Myanmar, you know, ending a 50 year dictatorship and becoming a democracy.
Host 06:02
Right, I didn't know that. So a lot of the drive and encouraged you to want to be there, even before you came was knowing that this coming election was pending, and how pivotal that would be for a country on the brink of between one system and another.
Jessica 06:15
Certainly, I didn't, I didn't arrive sort of, you know, with this resolute determination. You know, there were times when, you know, there were rumblings that the elections would be delayed, you never really quite knew. But certainly, I was hooked, you know, even though it was difficult. After you know, a few months, you just want to remain and you want to see it through. I mean, as a journalist, I, you know, I sometimes felt that I was actually seeing history unfold in front of me, which I'm not sure that I'll ever experience again in my life.
Host 06:49
Right, right. So I want to get to all of the changes in Myanmar and some of the transition that you witnessed, but before I just want to get to some of the personal stuff, because that was so much of what the book was about, and even the very title. So just on a personal level, personally speaking, what would you say you love the most about your time in the country.
Jessica 07:09
I think it enriched me as a person because of the people that I met, and people's incredible stories, you know, the courage and the dignity that they faced, you know, incredible hardships in day to day life in terms of poverty and lack of education and healthcare and opportunities, and lack of freedom of speech. And also, you know, people like Sonny sway my, the Burmese co founder of the Myanmar times, he was in prison when I arrived, and I went to the airport, when he returned from the president Shan state after seven years. And he'd spent several of those years in solitary confinement and he was still such a warm, beautiful, glowing person. And he got back straight back to work the following day, he was just, you know, and this was there were you know, repeated stories of people that are found so inspiring, like Sagna, the stand up comedian who was tortured in in prison, and the same man that tortured him, he zaga later went and visited in prison and provided food, food to him, and he forgave him for what he had done to him. And I was so inspired by that. And I think it definitely alters your perspective, hopefully, permanently, and is very inspiring for me to face my own difficulties in my life, you know, no matter how small they seem, in comparison.
Host 08:34
Right. And I think those are the stories that are so important to know now, for those of us interested in the country, as we're trying to understand this current moment and seeing the history of trauma and oppression and pain that has been there throughout so many past generations.
Jessica 08:50
Yeah, absolutely. The same fortitude. We're seeing that on the streets. It's interesting sometimes in Australia, especially, you know, with the debate around COVID. We tie ourselves up in such knots and we get so indignant over, you know, what can seem like trifles and then I compare that with the grace and the and the courage and the quiet determination to keep going. There's not sort of it used to amaze me just on the streets that would be you know, pouring with rain and flooded and without over romanticizing it, but people just remained graceful as they waited through these enormous puddles. And I that's such a contrast for me. I'm sort of flighty, impulsive, you know, I can be ungainly and I just find that the way that they have fought for democracy all this time has been really inspiring and it's even more heartbreaking that you know, the people have been so peaceful largely, you know, obviously there is, you know, many have now taken up arms but I still I find The day to day people just so admirable in their their grace.
Host 10:06
Right, and you reference streets that get flooded. That certainly happens in the monsoon season. And there's a whole aspect of life in Myanmar that is different from other countries, a whole new set of experiences. And a lot of your book is about what it's like to set up that home. So can you go into some, some of the more challenging parts of what you faced as you went into setting up a home and a life in Myanmar?
Jessica 10:32
Sure, and it man might, you know, as an expat, and I've been an expat in other countries, that Myanmar is unique, and that, you know, it had been in self imposed isolation for 50 years when I arrived. And there is not a clamor, you know, for, you know, expats please come in and, you know, contribute to the economy, it's sort of been not self sufficient, but certainly, you know, it's an, um, materialistic society as well. So that's the backdrop against which there are then requirements of you, like needing to pay a year's rent upfront. And it being extremely difficult even to find a property that you know, was vacant, because there's no signs and there was no internet websites to tell you. And so and then the second problem was, okay, so we needed to pay one year's rent upfront, but there's also no international banking. So you know, Shep, and I just didn't have that amount of money, we didn't even own that amount of money. So then the next challenge was, how can we get the money in, so we had to really put our faith in our hotel manager who scarcely knew to wire in through, you know, sort of an Associates account in Singapore, this was my father's money coming in, you know, it was really, and then so then all the money is there and counted, and we signed the lease and Burmese. So these kinds of things that you possibly wouldn't put up with elsewhere, you have to take into the context that, you know, Myanmar certainly has a lot of quirks because it has been closed off to the rest of the world for so long. So it just doesn't have the infrastructure and the systems in place to make it, you know, easy to go in there.
Host 12:19
Yeah, that's totally true. And that thing of pain a years in advance that that's such The first time you go through with that, it's it's such a terrifying thing that I think that every foreigner who has been there kind of has their own story of just this incredible act of faith that you're you're coming into a place where you don't understand the contract, and you don't really have a relationship with people bringing you there, and you're just looking at for many people when amount of money that is physically in a bag and put on a table that you've never seen in your life and just kind of hoping making the right choice here. You know, there's just in other countries, you're just not quite faced with that kind of leap of faith of just like, Okay, well, here's a year's rent and and I hope you're really the owner, and this is legal, and, you know, we're just going with it.
Jessica 13:05
Exactly. And you know, that there's no legal recourse. So there's, you know, you know, should should you get it know, about Apple as a landlord, we actually did get a very troublesome landlord, but we knew that whatever, whatever, you know, whatever her behavior was, for the next year, we needed to stay because you can't go and, you know, appeal a decision or ask for your money back. You know, once you've given that money, you're done. I mean, what about the house? What this was a very old house, and you know, many of the houses and you know, that there's been no upkeep over the years. And that's sort of an understatement. So you're also hope that the house will be still standing for a year? I know we did.
Host 13:49
Yeah. And I think that also underscores of how much of me and Mark because of its history is really built on the trust of those human relationships. And that, you know, like, I'm just thinking of a story where I had an American friend who was setting out Burmese business partner and he was trying to set up some kind of investment opportunity of a hospital somewhere. And he was asking me and a couple other foreigners who'd been there for a while, some advice on the best way to set up the contract to really protect himself. And we just kept telling him like, Yeah, that's good. You're looking at the contract and like, you shouldn't have anything glaring but like, really, that's not going to protect you like that's not really going to matter. At the end of the day. It's all about your relationship, you need to be putting much more thought into, like, what are the things that ties you and the other person together? How are you able to create a greater sense of intimacy with your business partner through Shared Contacts so that the the sense of potential betrayal or, or deceit in any way would just be so shameful given this interconnecting of of people that it would not really be fathomable that really would be much more to protect you Anything you would have in writing?
Jessica 15:01
Yeah, absolutely. And something I found when I returned to Australia in 2016, and I had terrible reverse culture shock. Australia, and it is Australia is one of the most heavily legislated Western nations in the world, we have a law for everything. But I missed a sense of just doing the right thing, because it was the right thing to do, which I felt many Myanmar people did. They did not have any fallback. You don't go to the police station, you know, crimes committed. And crime is very low in Yangon, I sort of I felt, and especially compared to other countries in Southeast Asia, I always felt that people had a really good social contract with each other. But, you know, for the most part, people are very honest, and do do the right thing. And also, that's I'm sure, partly because of their Buddhist beliefs. And they also everyone, you know, leaves their life with the full knowledge that the authorities are not there to help them but harm them. You know, like, my, my cleaner said to me, you know, don't go into a police station, people who go into a police station often don't leave.
Host 16:08
Yeah, yeah, that's very true. And it's in you, as the more you live and travel around the different kinds of communities, the more you see the extent to which they're taking care of their own, whether it's education, or orphanages, or health care, or religious teachings, or fixing the streetlight or the road or whatever, it's really the i was i was really astounded from the very start of when I started living there, how much the community realizes that it needs to take care of itself, because there's not that outside help coming in, as you say that outside help would, at worst, but harm them and at best would just kind of squeeze them a bit or make their life a bit more difficult.
Jessica 16:47
Absolutely. And it's the same, I was so impressed not to say I scarcely saw homeless people will take them and feed them. So there's this wonderful, you know, which is interwoven with, with Buddhism, of course, but the other thing, just small details that struck me was the clay waterpots. For people for drink, you had to you know, you had to purchase a bottle of water, but there was, you know, like, you couldn't just, you know, go to a tap in in a playground or a park and you know, refill your water bottle. But this water that was there, you know, for the passing marks, I thought that was quite beautiful that, you know, delinquents never came along and stole the clay pots or anything. I just liked that.
Host 17:30
Right. So as you live there, and several more, in what ways Did you find your expectations of coming there and what you'd learned different from what the reality was presented itself.
Jessica 17:41
I, there was some, some disappointments as much as they were, I found it's such an intoxicatingly beautiful place even more beautiful, you know, than the pictures I'd seen in Lonely Planet and things like that. But something that shocked me quite early on, was the way that even journalists would show some Islamophobia. So I had a friend who was a translator at the New York Times who was Muslim. And she when she told me that the reporters would tease her and say, Oh, did you bring a bomb in your backpack to work or there taunt her with their pork curries? and say, you know, do you want some pork knowing full well that she's a Muslim, and she doesn't eat pork. And I found that really distressing. And that began, it was occasional in the beginning, but it did begin to ramp up around the 969 movement. And my my husband had some really unpleasant exchanges back when he was kicked out of a taxi when he told the driver that he was from Bangladesh, and kind of culminated in you know, the chapter I call our home in Myanmar, when we needed to find a new place to live. And real estate agent had said to us, are you Muslim, because landlords don't want to rent to Muslims. And we assure them that we weren't. But even so on the day that we went around, you know, with our bag of money, they fed to sign the lease, they fed us pork snacks, just to be you know, 110% sure that we weren't Muslims. And that was a really awful and sad experience. And I don't think I reacted properly in the circumstances. But you also if I had become indignant and given a speech about religious freedom, I think, you know, I was sort of put in this awkward situation where we'd finally found a home. That was wonderful, and that we needed for our animals. We also really, I was really compromised morally. That day. I just shut up and played along and ate the pork and smiled, you know, and I thought that was sort of I was ashamed of what I did that day. But I was in Myanmar, and I was trying to be pragmatic.
Host 19:54
Yeah, and that was a really difficult set of years where this phobia I was really just coming on at a fever pitch, I've never been anywhere where you've just seen the shapes and the contours of the forms that started to take. And of course, you were affected more than the many with your husband being from Bangladesh, we actually, you know, when I read that part in your book, it's it was quite interesting how much that parallel, something happened to us. When my wife and I moved into our dream apartment, we, we had the contract to sign and we had then in tight we, with you, we looked everywhere and had all these conditions and found the perfect one that met all of our needs. And were actually friends with the family and everything was just perfect. And as we got the contract and read through it, there was one actually no, we it was pointed out to us. So the son of the owner, who had spent time in the US, kind of with a bit of shame and kind of discomfort, putting our attention to one clause buried in there, that was something about how when, when we were to leave the apartment, and if we were involved in helping them find new tenants that we would, we would not allow Muslim tenants to come and stay there. And we were, you know, and so we had this real ethical moment there of trying to figure out what to do. And it was where that was a moment where I really reflected on how in some ways I take for granted the ethical stance of the country where I'm from, and not that America is perfect by any means. And we have a terrible record and a lot of civil rights stuff. But there is a basis that if there is legal persecution of a group, you can take that to various courts in the law and show how like, Look, I'm having to sign something that's forcing me to discriminate, and I can't be put in this position. And then 2021, in most places in America, despite the problems we have, you are going to find that support. And so it really illustrated to me what ethical position and put you in when you knew that the law of the land would not protect you from forcing you to uphold certain kinds of prejudicial standards. And so we, we went through, you know, our own process, talk talking to friends back home, and kind of considering that, you know, well, it's just something we're signing, it doesn't really mean anything's gonna happen with that this is another another day where that happens. And what does it mean, if we sign this and condone it? And how do we have the conversation and so eventually, we just kind of you know, you're in Myanmar long enough, you kind of come up with Burmese proper me solutions for Burmese problems, and we kind of gently went to the sun and to other people associated with him, and just kind of in a friendly way, mentioned our discomfort with it. And that, you know, look, we're looking to stay here for a while, and we always just don't really like signing something that's in there. And he, I think, without informing his father that that because then that would cause a loss of faith in that direction, the class was just able to get removed and everyone was was settled with it. But you know, it was definitely something to work through.
Jessica 22:56
Wow, that's Well, yeah, that's See, I have I have not heard See, possibly the first lease I signed in Burmese that I couldn't read had a cause like that. I mean, you know, it was widespread. And I did find it shocking, that racist remarks are openly expressed. And, you know, as a society, Myanmar had not agreed that racism and you know, religious persecution, wasn't it that there was no agreement that it was wrong. It depends on you know, which group you were from. And that's, you know, I do believe that's partly because of the isolation and, you know, having a regime that, you know, attempted to brain motion and spread really, really harmful views. But it is it is distressing, when you're I mean, that's the head to that really well, I would say I don't feel that that I handled my situation. Well, I'm still not quite sure what I would have done. But
Host 23:52
yeah, yeah, well, it took a number of years of living in the country to start to when those problems came to me to start to realize that there were ways around there, there are unusual ways around or at least unusual for me to be able to find different alternatives than what jumped in front of me. And it really took because I lived there 15 years or something, and it really took a number of years to, you know, to not approach situations in the same way and start to look at kind of amazed walking around where Okay, we can get the solution I want and we just do it in this way. But we're getting back to the thing that you were saying about, you know, the basically looking at 2010s and some of the attitudes that we're developing, I had a Bomar activists on the podcast last month. And he he kind of and he was very aware and concerned when the Rohingya crisis started and was trying to raise awareness and share with his friends and, and obviously was not successful and his when I asked him his reason of why he felt that, that that he couldn't carry this message. He described it as being well you know, the 2010s We're kind of like this opening moment for all of us of our, our dear leader, finally, Aung San su ci, finally becoming in a leadership position. And, you know, this was our chance on the world stage, we just didn't want anyone to, to throw rain on the party, we just wanted to finally enjoy ourselves after all these years of, of just being downtrodden. And he's not saying this in a way to justify or in fact, he's extremely critical and negative about it. But he's just trying to describe the mindset of why there wasn't greater ethical action on certain kinds of things that were taking place that it was just it was it was an opening that everyone wanted to celebrate, and they just didn't kind of want to keep having their heads down. And all the problems, they just wanted a moment of being able to be free. But of course, that was freedom for some.
Jessica 25:46
Oh, and I, you know, I think, you know, uncensored cheese reaction, and, you know, filled everyone with dismay in the West. But back in Myanmar, it was what they had hoped, their elected leader, you know, that she, they were not on the side of the Rohingya. And neither was she. So it's, you know, that that's when I think the gap was exposed between our expectations and reality. So because, you know, it had festered for so long. And then when it was, you know, openly genocide, what no one could understand. But if you'd lived in Myanmar, you know, you could understand her son.
Host 26:25
Yeah. And I think also, you can't underscore enough what leadership of a country holding certain values does, how it permeates down to the culture of the rest of the country. You know, we saw that in my country with Trump and how certain values that he just openly espoused and talked about that were horrid started to become openly portrayed in America in ways we hadn't seen in generations. And I think in Myanmar, the way some of these anti Islam sentiment started to get expressed by leaders in high positions, it just permeated and created a culture where you could openly have a clause in a contract that, that forbid this. And that started to exclude some members of society, because that thinking was openly being discussed and shared from the top.
Jessica 27:09
Yeah, it's sort of takes your breath away, when you see it so openly expressed. It's sort of Yes, something else I had it, I also had an exchange I didn't include in the book, when I was at the British Embassy. So again, you know, my expectations were fairly high of my colleagues at the British Embassy, and a good friend of mine, with no malice at all, she was asking me about my husband and I, and my enrollment, and I told her that scheppers father had been Muslim, and he passed away when she was only 14. And her response to that was, Oh, that's good for you. And I was so you know, I actually almost cried that she said that, that, you know, my husband had lost his father. And she thought, overriding that was how convenient for me, it was that I didn't have a Muslim father in law. And I just, I just, it's just this enormous blind spot, this otherwise wonderful friend, a friend of mine, working in an international environment, could still hold those beliefs. And I think, you know, Myanmar still has a lot of work to do in that regard, and a lot of work to undo all all of these beliefs that have been permeated, you know, at the school level, and the day to day level. And how, you know, unwinding that, I think, would is an enormous challenge. But I feel I feel that man knows better than that. Do you? Do you think that?
Host 28:33
Can you clarify what you mean, by the question,
Jessica 28:35
I think I think the people are so much better than that. They are such beautiful, kind hearted, generous people in so many ways. And that this blind spot with the Islamophobia is is not doing them justice.
Host 28:51
Yeah, yeah, definitely. You know, I think it was a perfect storm. I think it was a perfect storm of the internet and social media, and especially Facebook coming on as it did. And rural people went from barely having any access to news or information to suddenly having, you know, web 2.0 on their phone, and they never even known how to use internet before and, and that all this fake news was coming along at this time and hitting them so strongly, and that, you know, my America's a quite an advanced nation. And look what fake news did for us in terms of what Russia was putting out during Trump and the ways that affected even people in our country and you're looking at and you know, we had a slow burn through the technology fields, starting with radio, television, internet, etc, and to where we were now, I mean, Myanmar went overnight. I was living there during the time I went overnight from having internet cafes that barely anyone even knew about or knew how to use to suddenly there were phones and SIM cards that were affordable and everyone could have and so to be living in a rural setting and have access to information coming to you and be able to discern Where this where this information was coming in what it meant, how true it was, etc. I just think it was it was really asking a lot in those situations for people to, in a sophisticated way be able to parse through that. And you know, that that's been my view. On the other hand, I do have to say, I'm shocked and disappointed by that urban sector of Burmese who I think should have known better, you know, yeah, had who were fluent in English, they'd been abroad and international friends, they knew they knew how to engage in critical thinking and how to how to go online or to engage to learn new things. Those were the ones that really I really started to hold accountable, and really was shocked and disappointed at how much they were also drinking the same thing.
Jessica 30:49
Yeah, I mean, but those people, you know, with who had been taught critical thinking skills, think that you know, that there's very few of them, I think, in Myanmar, because, you know, their education system is rote learning. And I would also say, I mean, I think Facebook is the platform. And yes, it does disseminate fake news, but I believe the prejudice was already there and long ingrained by the military. You know, they openly espouse that, you know, Buddhism is the best religion and the Burma, you know, are the sort of chosen race, this kind of, you know, almost eugenics thinking, at the expense of all the ethnic minorities and things. And I think, yes, Facebook, sped it up and did shocking, it allowed shocking things to happen, you know, sort of mob rights, violence, that type of thing. But I think on the whole, it only allowed people to exchange views that were already held.
Host 31:41
Right. I think, you know, I think honestly, this is going to be something that we're going to be spending years and decades trying to figure out what the heck happened during this time. I think that in the people I've talked to the evaluation, we often come to, as we are just too close to this to really quite understand everything going on, you know, when it first broke, because I was in Myanmar much before the transition in the in the 2000s. When the crisis and the anti Islam sentiment started to initially be quite strong, it was it was quite shocking and surprising to me, actually, because the prejudice that I had seen up to that point, anti Islam was, you know, somewhere in the top 10. But probably in the latter order, they were not things I'd really ever heard much from anyone you know, there was plenty of anti Chinese there was an Indian there was the different ethnicities that got their share, and etc. But it almost seemed like a dartboard of just different groups. And somehow the Dart hit a group that I wasn't, wasn't really on my radar, something I was hearing a lot of at that time. And I think, of course, once that starts to develop and starts to become a thing, then you can go back historically, and trace the history of the prejudice, and it's all there. I mean, there's nothing you're making up, it's all there's a trajectory of all of that. But it's also that once you know, the future, the past then takes on different connotations of because you know how things turn out. But when I was living there and say, you know, like, 2007, or eight or something, and someone had told me what was going to be happening, someone had said to me in 10 years, there is going to be a minority group in Myanmar that is going to be severely prejudiced against them, you know, describe the things that were happening, that Islam would not have been my top five choices of who that group could have been.
Jessica 33:28
Oh, that's really interesting. Okay. Yeah, that is really interesting. I guess, you know, my first coming from Bangladesh as well. So, again, I didn't mention it in the book that we submitted our and I shouldn't laugh, because it's nothing that is funny. But we submitted our visas to the embassy in Dhaka. And the following day, was the very, very first acts of violence between the authorities and the Rohingya in Rakhine State. And we've got a cold just to come and pick up our passports. They were just empty. But nothing said just no sort of thing. And it was from there that then we had to go and try from Thailand. So for me, like it was from the very my, you know, the very before I was even now, I was aware of this tension.
Host 34:17
Right. And I think that was when it was also starting to develop and starting to manifest and also having the husband who would be on the receiving end of that prejudice would would certainly change the whole way you
Jessica 34:28
look to things. Absolutely. Yeah, that's true.
Host 34:32
Yeah, so as you lived in Myanmar during this period of transition, one of those transitions, including not only on Seung Soo Ji taking the role of leader but also the views of her which you made reference to just now, both within and outside the country, and she definitely has received steady support from Burmese during that period. But there was this increasing concern from abroad and from foreign observers, especially as the anti Islam setting For growing, so as someone who has tapped into both worlds and also was a journalist at the time, how were you following her trajectory?
Jessica 35:08
Well, I idolized her, I thought she, you know, I held her in my mind as I did Gansey and Nelson Mandela. And I think a lot of people did. And also, you know, kind of the appeal of going to Myanmar was, you know, she had been released and I wanted to see her lead her country. And so I, you know, it was completely swept up, and you see her picture everywhere and picture of her father and son as well, you know, all the taxi cab drivers have have pictures of them. And so then when I got the chance, my first chance to see her I think, after that, I saw her a few more times. But it was a small event where there was a book being launched in your like hotel. And it was a beautiful photography book by a photographer and American photographer called Richard cage around, and she gave the speech and, you know, it was like, she was a rock star. And you know, there was this media Scrum that was, you know, it was really intense before she came up. And then when she did arrive, no, all the cameras were flashing. And then she opened her mouth. And I was so taken aback I, and I'll be interested to hear your views. But I found her lacking in their charisma I expected her to have as a speaker. And also in her chosen words, like it was sort of a bit of a flat delivery, as she was talking, interestingly, about ethnic diversity in Myanmar, and what sort of potential future it had because this book celebrated ethnic diversity. And I found her stilted and interestingly online to read Samantha power's autobiography, and she was un the US ambassador in New York, and she talks about, she went there with Obama to Myanmar, and they had a meeting with unsung Suchi and uncensored she was totally uncooperative and cold. I thought, okay, it wasn't just me because I didn't even dare tell anyone what I thought of her except for Sherpa. Because I thought I was the one lacking and look, maybe I am. Maybe she was having an off day. But as I said, I've seen her speak again. And I was what surprised me was she sounded really she had this really posh British accent that was not sort of all the people, as you were mentioned, and I have heard that she is she's a tricky character. I heard things at the embassy that you know, also I shouldn't repeat. But someone said to me one night at the foreign correspondents club, she a lot of people have pegged her wrong in the West she is less Mahatma Gandhi more Sonia Ghandi sort of mind. She's, she's, you know, she's, she's tough. She's had to have been, and she can turn it on. This person said to me, but she she would have to want to. And so from that moment that I first saw her I guess that was the beginning of me re adjusting the esteem in which I held her I still honestly, Yes, she's let everybody down. But she's back under house arrest as we speak. And I'm terribly sorry for that. And I also give her the credit she deserves for the things that she has done as well as being disappointed in her for what she's for what she hasn't done, if that makes sense.
Host 38:35
Yeah, definitely a complicated character. And you also had some interesting observations and you you refer to part of that just now. But if you can go into more detail from what you would written in the book about the difference between onsen sushi as a Burmese speaker, addressing crowds, and as someone who speaks English, not just in the words and the style, but in the overall charisma, you had some good observations on that?
Jessica 38:59
Well, I mean, when so when there's also you know, the the the Burma Myanmar question is, you know, a bit of a political hot potato. So, when she speaks in the Myanmar language, which I refer to in the book as Burmese just because I find it rather than saying the Myanmar language, so when she speaks Burmese, she refers to the country as Myanmar. And she always has, but when she speaks in English in a very sort of, she did study in an Oxford University, and she was in the UK for a quarter of a century. But it's really, really is quite a posh accent. And I have I've lived in London for three years so I can tell the accents. And so I found I found that a little bit strange there was not even like a huge of a Burmese inflection. And when she says Burma in English, she always says Burma. So if it used to be the case that if you supported human rights and democracy in Myanmar, you call the country Burma. And when because Uncensored, he called it Burma. That is what you should call it. And because the military generals without asking the people what they wanted, suddenly announced that the country would be called in western countries should refuse to call the country Myanmar, and continue to call it Burma. And when I worked at the British Embassy, it was still Rangoon and burn these, you know, colonial names and a corruption of the, you know, the majority race. So, you know, it really is very complicated, but everyone on the streets calls the country, Myanmar. And so that was what I caught it and I found it, I did, I found it odd that she persisted in calling it Burma. I know my government in Australia, you can see how, you know if it was their feelings towards the government at the time was hot or cold, because they would shift even the ABC, which left whether Myanmar was being called Myanmar on that particular day, or they're going back to Burma if they did something wrong, which I thought was a bit silly. So when Hillary Clinton came, I believe she came in 2011. Before Obama came in 2012. She didn't call the country anything, she called it the country. She, she didn't make up her mind. And then when Obama came, much of the anticipation was surrounding what he called the country, Myanmar or Burma. And he put a foot in both camps, because when he was with him Suchi on her balcony, he called the country Burma. And then when he met with President Trump saying, he called the country in your mouth, but it was a big deal. It was a really signaled a shift that this was an endorsement of, of the path that Myanmar was on. And it was it was such an exciting moment.
Host 41:45
Yeah, right. And you were there in all of that, not just as someone living there, but also as a journalist. I mean, for a young journalist being there, that must have just been a really exciting time as the the whole profession of journalism was taking its first tentative steps towards this independence and free expression and reporting. So what was that kind of feeling and vibe like is it started to get off the ground?
Jessica 42:10
It was wonderful. It really felt that you were doing your own small part, you know, in Myanmar's transition to democracy. You know, there were topics when I arrived at the New York Times, there were 16 rules about you know, things that we weren't allowed to write about. One of them was ghosts, interestingly, spirits know, last round about spirits. But you know, things like poverty had been off the table, because that was a criticism of the military. And I remember interviewing the curator at the strand gallery, Jill Patterson. And she had shown me pictures that had been out the bank, like some of them had sorry, she didn't show me She told me she said that she had all these pictures out the back. And the same, I think we've penciled on gallery, although I'm not sure if he ever played the game as much. But anyway, at the Australian gallery at the upmarket strange hotel, she had these beautiful paintings by Burmese painters that she could never hang because they depicted poverty. So she, when I came in 2012, I think she was sort of testing the waters a little bit. But being able to actually hang up these beautiful paintings and performance art was beginning as well, you know, places were opening, and you were able to go and interview the artists, that all done time, all of them had done time, if they were saying anything remotely important at all, you know, even the stand up comedian who I mentioned earlier, is organized, he'd done a combined I think, 15 years now he's back in prison, which distresses me greatly, because he would never stop telling jokes about the military. And so so to be a reporter, and to be able to start to document people's lives, I did write for the UN's new service in Myanmar as well, and to be to be able to run about the way that old people were being treated. So I went to this home that was, you know, vastly ill equipped to look after people who were very frail. I googled it. And I scarcely found another news article on the topic of elderly care in Myanmar. And to be doing that, for the first time, you think, gosh, these are these are monumental problems, and there is such a long road ahead. But this is the beginning of looking at this and seeing what is happening to these people who have never had the chance to tell their story, you know, incredible stories, and I think it helps them and I think, you know, it is it. I mean, I'm a journalist, of course, I believe in the value of sharing stories. I think that's really powerful in it. You know, it sort of encourages empathy for each other in the different circumstances that we're in. So not only were these stories incredibly interesting, you know, like the human hair trade. That's, you know, I was presenting to the Bangkok post I thought, well, the readers have never heard about this before. I've certainly never had. it's exhilarating. And it's just so interesting. And you do feel enormous satisfaction. I'm not a an overtly political journalists, like I wasn't covering, stuffing bacon door, I do a lot of human interests. And I also do a lot of business. But I realized that the military has tentacles, you know, extends so far, every aspect of life, all your stories have have quite a life and death aspect to them, even you know, business stories, because it's about giving people a chance to improve their circumstances. So I, you know, I found it enormously rewarding. I also found it quite distressing. And, but yet really just very rewarding. And it was a real privilege to be there at a time when I was able to do that, because, again, it's been plunged into darkness. You know, if you go on the New York Times website, now it literally goes black, and then a little pop up boxes, we've suspended publication for three months, and that was six months ago. So I was very fortunate to be there.
Host 46:06
Right, that's an interesting observation how the military is influenced when everywhere. And I think that's something that it's hard for people who weren't there at that time to understand and there's a couple of stories that come to mind hearing that. One is, when I was living there before the transition, I remember the on television, there was this event of like the basically the Myanmar version of the Academy Awards, where they were, they were just giving awards for different Myanmar movies. And it was all military run. So it was all like the judges and the presenters and the talks. They were all different people in the military. And I remember my friend turned to me and just saying, Can you imagine if like, you know, in our country in the US, we had this and we had, like, you know, Joint Chiefs of Staff and this kind of lieutenant in this general like just being at this award ceremony talking about movies and put that way, it was just like, Man, that is Yeah, that is that is why all that how What does one possibly have to do with the other. And then the other story that came to mind hearing that is I spoke to one activists a few months ago on the podcast, and he was was at the beginning of the coup. And he was just describing in very general terms, what he was fighting for, and why it mattered so much to him. And he's a devout Buddhist, and he was describing how for his childhood, there was just abject poverty and among all of the monasteries that he was associated with, and he would go and serve monks and spend time volunteering to teach English to the novices. And there was, the problem wasn't just the poverty that these monasteries were in and lack of resources, even for the monks, it was that they they could not adequately even tell their situation to potential donors within the country. Because as you said, that would be shining a light on poverty. So in other words, they had to live in the shadow of poverty for an open ended period, because it would be seen as shameful and critical of the military to show how these monasteries were being we're just barely surviving in the kind of poverty state they were in. And when the transition started, and the openness began, these things could be reported they could be talked about, and just by talking about admitting what the problem was that allowed donations to come that weren't coming before. And so for him he was looking at, this was one of several things he was looking at, but going back into a cycle of poverty of these monasteries not being cared for and upkeep. And, you know, and this just again, highlights the absolute hypocrisy of the militaries claim that they're the ones that are protecting the Buddhism and that are keeping a strong monkhood. When you just get example after example, after example of how you know action after action, it's just destroying the every infrastructure of the monk lay relationship and the teachings and, and everything and you talk to people that are devout Buddhist, and that are involved in some aspect of meditation or teaching or whatnot. And just person after person just describes the flowering not you know, that's really interesting, because you can think about a flowering of like business or creative arts or education or opportunities, but you don't really know where to put you know, the conservative traditional monkhood tradition in that. But I mean, everyone I talked to you it's in there, they just talked about how monks were now able to think more critically, they were able to have more control over their education programs, they were able to do more social services, they were able to get more donations because they could reveal what their needs were and so every aspect of society but certain the religion the religion, which is the thing that they say that supposedly they care about the most was, was just flowering like never before when the rains came off there.
Jessica 49:38
Yeah, that's amazing, isn't it? And you know, the generals, what do they do they just build another pagoda and think they've made merit and they'll be fine in the afterlife that day of reckoning. There was one story that also similar to yours describes, you know, the tentacles so I was I was commissioned by a magazine in the UK. That's all on paint. Can you just started getting the most paint industry because I was so hungry to do business? You know, this is a large population, and it's untapped. And I always had a difficult time explaining there's no data, like there hasn't been a census. And then when there was a census, there were millions of people missed. And there were just not trade figures. But anyway, I said, Okay, I shall get your report on Myanmar's paints industry. And I thought, this will be as interesting as watching paint dry, went and set off. And I met a person who was he distributed Japanese paints, because the local quality was quite poor, if my memory serves me correctly, and he told me that the military had been paint colors, there were only four colors that were allowed by law to be used. And after that law was overturned. Do you know how colorful people's homes are, you know, there might be a wall that's purple and a wall. That's a sort of fuchsia. And then another one that's peppermint green, like this is a sort of it's a riot of color, inside and outside people's homes. And he said when people had the freedom to choose what kind of color they were allowed to use, while they enjoyed the freedoms? And I just thought, wow, you know, was there anything the military didn't think of, to control the population? You know, could they not have let anyone had the freedom to choose anything under their rule? You know, it's just extraordinary. And that, you know, that story. I found, without exception, whether I was recording on meat, or the auto industry or anything, there was always sort of, you know, it had been the sector had been tainted by, you know, shall we say, the quirks of the military and the megalomania?
Host 51:40
Yeah, absolutely. And for you to be there, in that time, seeing this transition take place, from the view of a reporter that definitely gives an inside perspective into what's taking place. And as you were there, and you were obviously a foreign reporter, and you were working with the local journalists getting off the ground. How did you find how would you characterize the relationship between these local and foreign journalists?
Jessica 52:06
It was language language inhibited as being closer. So even in the Myanmar times office, not all of the reporters spoke English. And I became closest to theory, who was a translator, who was really keen to improve her English. But as the near me, Emma times had, we had a Burmese paper and an English paper, and people like teary translated those stories. So there was a great deal of shyness. But I was friendly, I became friendly with a lot of photographers, because we were truly collaborating. So we might go out somewhere, and so counted, or booth e or coetail, will take the photos, and I do the recording. And, you know, sometimes we traveled it together, so counted, had a car. So we did quite a number of freelance stories, and I got to know the photographers quite well. I had a lot of respect for the Burmese reporters, and I did not mentor it some in the newsroom, and how much they wanted to improve. And this was the same at the Bible, new line of Myanmar, there were some journalists there, who were intent on improving their English skills and they wanted, they were so eager for me, they were a delight to work with, because they wanted to learn and sometimes I felt, you know, not up to the task of, you know, some of these situations are so complex. And I also, I did a workshop in nature door with the military newspaper, and the other segment newspapers, and I found the same hunger to learn from the, from the young journalists there. And some of the incredible stories, you know, that if you love being a journalist, this is a universal, you know, very universal people. And we just get along, you know what I mean? And so, you know, I, I was, quite frankly, amazed by some of the things that they told me the courage, I'm not sure that I would have had the courage as a foreign reporter. I didn't, I didn't think I face imprisonment. I thought I faced being deported. That was possibly I did worry about Sherpa and I did stay away from certain stories in case he was used as a pawn. Because again, I knew I knew that they could do something to him, and I would have no legal recourse to that. So I but I just had such admiration for them. I do wish we could have been closer. And but I do think again, I think language sometimes inhibited that. And also, you had a lot of there was sort of English language publications. There were a few of them. But then there were a lot of Burmese only publications, but I was really good friends with my husband's colleagues at his newspaper. And I just yeah, had had some wonderful friends. ships with with that many young women as well. In fact, in the AMA times, there was definitely a strong female majority, which I also liked.
Host 55:09
And how would you characterize the attitudes of some of the foreign journalists that were coming there at that time to begin reporting?
Jessica 55:16
Well, it was competitive. There was some big egos there were and I'm sure it's the same, well, maybe it's the same in eight work, or what, you know, if you're a teacher or something, there's a bit of jostling. Like, who's got who's breaking the biggest stories? Who's got the best connections? Who's the most, you know, sort of serious journalists? Like who's doing the really hard hitting stories that and, you know, if you're, if you're writing for The Washington Post on New York Times, or something, you know, you really are, you're cutting off the race sort of thing. So I organize the foreign correspondents journalist, because I found it was a little bit clicky in the beginning, like, we were a small community, and it seemed a waste that there was so much rivalry, and just a little bit of hostility, I thought, you know, come on, we're all in this together. And I'm sure we've all got similar stories. Not everyone went to the foreign correspondents, club drinks, we just had these informal drinks. But I think it did make it a bit friendlier and kind of, you know, when you get to know someone, it's harder to be competitive. And I was just as competitive as the rest of them. I was like, territorial, I was like, I've been here longer than you like, you should show me respect. You know, I have been treated the same way in the beginning. And then and you think, what am I doing? Like, why do I have this ego? It's so stupid. But you can't help it when, you know, this upstart walks into the newsroom and starts just like finding these amazing stories. You're like, what, how did you do that? You know, you're jealous. And there was a lot of that, because, you know, there was some really big stories, like there was a lot of international interest. So you may work for the Myanmar times, but you'd be a string up for, you know, perhaps the newspapers, in your home country. And, you know, some people did that incredibly well. And some of us floundered. And then we'll also, you know, perhaps some irresponsible characters who did come in sort of guns blazing may not have been protective enough of their sources, not quite understanding the dangers that they could put their sources in. And of course, that would then be condemned route roundly by the community of journalists behind the back, you know, that sort of thing. There was a bit of, there was a bit of aRGy bargy, sometimes, but also wonderful, like, I had some wonderful nights out with, with my colleagues. So it was, you know, and And I remember thinking in Myanmar, you know, you could go to a party, and you can walk up to anyone and say, What are you doing here, like, what brings you to Myanmar, and then have an interesting story, like I found, basically, everybody interesting, you know, whatever brings the person to me and mouth, they will not your average person who just wanted to work a nine to five, you know, and have a comfortable existence, they wanted something a bit more from life. Maybe because we were all a bit lost, or, you know, curious, but I just, I had a lot of respect for the other people in Myanmar. And that was the same for the journalists like you. It wasn't, it wasn't a walk in the park, you know, and if you stayed there, you realize that, and so, you know, I always found I love going to the foreign correspondent drinks and hearing about the stories that other journalists were doing, because as I said, like, I'm assuming interest, and a business reporter. And I really admired people who were really going, you know, going to reclined state and saying the camps, which I knew would leave me traumatized. And doing that, and that was the regular bait, I think, wow, you know, you're brave, and you can handle a lot.
Host 58:48
Right? So definitely, you hit the nail on the head and Myanmar being a place where those who came to live definitely had a story for why they were doing what they were doing. And I definitely found that as well. I'm curious about the journalists, especially what you found their range of motivations were for why they wanted to come to me and at that time for you, you reference how you were just really psyched and intrigued by this coming election, but how would you characterize the range of other motivations of why the foreign journalist specifically in that profession would want to come and set up shop there?
Jessica 59:23
It was, it was a man that was a hot story, you know, I mean, it became the new travel darling. It was all you know, it has unsung Suchi who is you know, she can cut through the noise, you know, in the world section of the newspaper, pretty much you know, every time it was it was an incredible narrative leading up to the election and media outlets. Were interested you know, I can't even think I mean, with the pandemic it's hard to think but as a country way I mean, it's felt even though some people sort of called it a backwater, you know, Southeast Asia. It felt like all the world's eyes were on Myanmar. You know, you know, when Bhama came twice and that sort of thing and in the lead up to the election, so I think it was, you know, professional, there were professional opportunities for journalists, and they were coming in and greater in Britain. The numbers like I want a piece of that action, like, this is one of the world's biggest stories. And it's an enchanting story of, you know, good and evil, and democracy and dictatorship, you know, these really, really big important principles. But then it's also interesting. There, and to see your long term expert, I'm not sure what you would make of this, but some of the journalists that had been there, like a decade before I came, they intrigued me as well, because why had they what had brought them there? I mean, you could scarcely do journalism. The New York Times, you know, it was really cool because it had social pages, you know, of like people drinking cocktails. Why are you doing these light hearted pieces in, you know, a country that has some of the worst poverty rates in the world? Um, but you know, business goes on and functions continue, you know, I don't know it's, it is so interesting for me, it possibly would have been a bit too dark, like there was no light at the end of the tunnel. It'd be like going to North Korea now, I think, where you're just kind of perpetuating the regime, you know, whatever nonsense it's spouting. Like, when I joined the globe, a new line of Myanmar. I was like this is I'm doing this partly partly because it's fascinating, but partly because they want to change the newspaper and, you know, make it reflect a more democratic, Myanmar. But the older like the old hand, journalists, like the ones I met, when I was in Myanmar, I mean, it started working at Myanmar times, their knowledge was unbelievable and incredibly intimidating. As someone that had just arrived, you know, they spoke Burmese and stuff, and had Burmese wives and that sort of thing. And I think, you know, it's, I don't know, you just funds of the place or something. And then compared to the journalists, though, that sort of came in in, you know, the beginning of 2015. Okay, right. Let's hold the election. Yep. Let's do it. Okay, next assignment. You kind of feel like, Did you fall in love? Like a little bit, you know, um, but I guess, you know, like, if you'll be the BBC, like, you know, I know, Jonah was fascinated by Myanmar. But when his time was up, he he moved on, you know, that was after three years. But there are some kind of like, when bam, thank you, Sam. Tight journalists, and they chase the headlines. And that's when they do really well. I'm just not that kind of a journalist. I mean, I think I'm actually more of an author than a journalist, if that makes sense.
Host 1:02:31
Sure. Sure. Yeah. So you reference this 2015 elections, pivotal election that so much was centered around. And then after the election, of course, there was a period of transition that has now gotten so much attention, and that different people have different views of what exactly was taking place, what was happening and what wasn't happening. So for journalists that were on the ground covering these democratic reforms, and to whatever extent was possible, as they started to take shape. How would you find journalists views, journalists perspectives, on watching this unfolding? What was their opinion about the how to put it the the authenticity of what was taking place?
Jessica 1:03:20
It's interesting. I mean, I was just thinking about my previous response. And I didn't miss a category of journalists who work for incredible publications like the New York Times, and they come in to me, and I very quickly do this story leave. And they do that over many, many years. So they do know the country. Well. I mean, I, I remember having some frustration, there was sort of a cohort of really quite young journalists, because their internship opportunities and that kind of thing. And you know, Myanmar's political situation and the history is so complex, just sort of try to I remember trying to get my head around the fact that uncensored cheese father founded the military, and her father was personal friends with the military guys. So as a child, she played at their houses. And so there was this closeness of the relationship that it wasn't actually as black and white, you know, they're, they're on the good side, and they're on the bad side. You know, someone told me the context, well, maybe that's why they hadn't killed her because they know her. They know her very closely. Some of them do cater with a passion, but she's also the daughter of her father. You know, if that makes sense. You can't I don't know. I think me and Mary's is almost so complicated. That to go in and try and do a story on your first visit in a month, you definitely miss some important pieces of the puzzle. And I think some people came in, you know, here for a good time, not a long time kind of thing. I want to get the stories and may may have missed the nuance of those stories and She sent things a bit too simplistic in a simplistic way that missed. And also, you know, we as journalists, we have word counts. So you have this incredible industry goes yet give me 600 words on, you know, the persecution of chin people and you're like, that's so hard to do. You know, maybe that's why I wrote a book. And so that's really hard as well. And people readers, you know, typically aren't interested in the complexities. But there was, I did make some characters who I thought you are biting off more than you can chew, ask him and slow down. But look, I'm just the same because if you're, if you're young and ambitious, you know, you do want to you want to make a career and you want to make it around something like an election. But they were you know, there was it was every man and his dog around 2015. And it was, you know, like, I suppose you've heard the term, carpetbaggers, people, people used to joke about, you know, the lost souls and misfits turning up in Yangon to sell their wares and their knowledge, and then hold all these workshops about absolute nonsense, and try and make a buck. So, you know, there were those kinds of shady, shady professionals, I think that was circulating and some were sharks as well. And just kind of trying to, you know, capitalize on on vulnerabilities and an immature market, you know, for certain products or whatever. And I think that was the same with the media. You know, there was some chunky players and some incredible players. I hope that's fair.
Host 1:06:32
Oh, it wasn't really wild west. I think in every every profession, there was from state to journalism to teaching to business opportunities. I think it was just absolutely a wild west period.
Jessica 1:06:44
Yeah. And, you know, education, you could kind of set up the school for Mickey Mouse. Yeah. And say, that'll be a couple of grand a term and make some, you know, some funky website and claim, you know, degrees from so and so. And, and it'd be absolutely hollow in its promises. So, yeah. And again, you know, no regulation. So it was people, you know, people, Burmese people have, you know, a sort of moral compass on the whole, but a lot of opportunistic people went, you know, there was some shameful characters went there.
Host 1:07:16
Yeah, yeah. And I think that it reminds me of this line that you have in your epilogue, it's my favorite line. In the book, you said that Myanmar's sudden return to a dictatorship means that I have inadvertently written a history book, that's a great way of looking at how you went on to capture your life in this country. And as it was going through this transition, but suddenly, the the door had closed at the end of your writing, and you were now writing about something that was no longer and how shocking to the system that was and that's it made me think of a number of things. And also in what you just said, remind me of that as well, in the sense that if you you have this wild west period of this, the the reforms taking place and these new opportunities, but also kind of lawlessness of anything goes and not a lot of legal protections and people's is mentioned some sharks that were there people with bad intentions. Also some real entrepreneurs, and people with ambition, everything was thrown into the mix of what was happening. And I think if you were to plop in the middle of that, I don't know how you'd make sense of it. I mean, I did have people I can be friends with that came in the middle of that. And it was really fascinating having conversations with them. Because their perspective of what they had dropped in the middle of not knowing the context and mine, knowing where it had come from, and living through that period of going from where we were before to now made us look at those situations and, and experiences very, very differently. You know, for me, it was a mix of like, seeing this, this kind of wild west and for what it was and the challenges of that. But then also knowing that there simply were opportunities of a kind of quality of life that were never there before and anytime I would see some new business start to take off like you know, homemade yogurt or a hotel or service where they would come and cut your grass or organic soil or farmer's market like any of these things, I celebrated them, you know, I was thrilled like I i've never rooted for businesses to succeed as much as in during that time, I would just you know, I'd, I'd buy some homemade yogurt, I would think, man, this is great. And I just be like, God, I hope these guys succeed, like this is so great what they're doing because I had lived through a period where like, this stuff was just unimaginable to have anyone who had any kind of decent lifestyle was not a good person because there was no way to be, you know, middle class or comfortable in any way and have any ethics because you had to be a crony to get there. And so to see people taking their their passions and their loves and trying to build some kind of entrepreneurial thing around it. I just celebrated it and I loved it. And you know, I think I think also what was funny as well is when I would meet people and They would find out, I'd been young on X number of years, you know, 10 years or whatever it was at that time, they would often flash like a look of horror on their face of life. Like, you are crazy, how could you and I would try to explain like young Khan today is not young on five years ago, you can't understand it like, it was like this was as and this was the mix of the shifts from one phase to another, as much as now we have these freedoms and opportunities and these these all these cool people doing cool things that we're never allowed to do, we also have this like traffic from hell. And this, you know, the what was going on with the real estate bubble and everything else. And the young gone before it was a much calmer city as far as a foreigner goes, I mean, I know that you don't have the kinds of freedoms or safeties that was on the military ship that goes without saying, but it was also like, it was a really quiet, calm, peaceful town, it was easy to talk to people, there was never traffic, I'd never seen traffic in my life, you can get anywhere at anywhere in 20 minutes, you could also see the road under your feet, because you know, the cars were in such a condition that, you know, they were all basically from the 50s and 60s, because they weren't having imports at that point. But it was it was just really a night and day difference in terms of what you got back then. And then what you got during that transition. And then as you say, in the book that that itself is now history, and it's so interesting how you look at the progression of time, because up until a few months ago, you would see like, Okay, well, you had these kind of old days that the door is closed, and now this rough transition is starting and things are kind of chaotic, and we'll see where that goes. And then all of a sudden, you readjust your whole view of history. And you say, Oh, well, actually, it's, it's been this, this extended dictatorship with just this little window where some things were attempted. And then it kind of went back to how things always were and you realize that the door and the gate that was closing was actually not the military dictatorship, leading to the rough transition. It was actually the rough transition was actually this moment of sunlight that itself was was closed, and then it readjusted, at least for now back to those very battle days.
Jessica 1:12:09
Yeah, it's true, and what you were saying like, you know, how you celebrated every new business, it's interesting that I don't think military really thought through everything that comes along with democracy. And that is that, you know, wealth is more spread out, certainly not as concentrated as they would like it to be. And I was watching foreign correspondent last week on the ABC, and they had a Burmese specialist, say that she believes that the origins of a coup, the military men, you know, a very select number of them, feeling that their economic interests were threatened by a more robust democracy. And it's true, because they don't have a stranglehold over everything as they would like. And it's To me, it's like they've had a temper tantrum, you know, we don't want to share, we don't want to share with, you know, with everybody else, and we don't want to give up all our vested economic interests, that you're going to make this, you know, do. So I feel like they sort of weren't prepared for that, like, there were new opportunities, because they were more people to sell their whiskey to or whatever. But there was also competition, international competition and local competition that was coming about, you know, through hard honest work, which is, you know, what I always celebrate anywhere, anytime. And people with fresh ideas compared to this style, like, they don't even know how to think what people want. Like, because they don't, they don't eat the products they sell, you know, they eat every everything they have comes from Singapore, or China or whatever, you know, at the best of the best. So they don't really know, you know, because they're living in this sort of separate fantasy world. So they, you know, then they don't know how to do marketing and all those kinds of things, because I never had to, like, you don't have to entice people to buy your product, when there's only one product, right? Like a new line of Myanmar, when it's your newspaper, it can be instant. So I think they kind of had a wake up call, and there were a lot of sort of unpleasant realities hit home and that they feared, you know, a greater relinquishing of the economic interest and also probably greater transparency over what you own that and that's how, you know, J goes to China. No, you know, that, that kind of thinking that, you know, threaten them. So it's really, it's really sad that this terrible political situation could have economic origins, but I think a lot in the world does have economic origins. And it makes me really sad when you know, people, young people, especially like I have a friend Ninh who was running father's office, it's opposite the Secretariat. And she was a refugee came to Australia, and returned to Yangon. And she wanted her life to be in Yangon. And so she set up this fantastic bar called father's office, you know, with nachos and we had some talks with me and my friend Karl. Finance club. And the last time I saw her on Facebook, obviously she had to close her bat and she was making placards, you know, you know, in a garage. And I think her talents are being squandered. She should be. She's an events hospitality guru. And she should be giving people pleasure and joy and great nights out. But she is having to make placards and she could be harmed or shot, you know, and I and, and I get very upset that seeing these people who are so talented, having to turn back to the most basic of tasks like feeding yourselves. I saw a picture on Facebook, just by the way of it, the caption was what passes for a meal in Vietnam now. And it was a shock of garlic and a stick of bamboo. So people are boiling bamboo. You know, this is this is terrible. they've, they've had to go back to fighting for day to day existence, you know, when the bottom of the pyramid was starting to look as though it was filling out and people could start to achieve and go after their ambitions and their career goals. And I'm sure you find it as upsetting as I do to be seeing this.
Host 1:16:08
Yeah, well, I spoke to one Gen X or on the podcast who, quote always sticks with me. She said, You know, I wasn't expecting to have this revolution, I came up fighting for gender rights, I came up fighting for like the role of women in society. All of a sudden, I'm fighting for basic human rights is like what what's going on? You know, and that's really stuck with me with how far you know, she was trying to advance a certain cause forward. And now she was going so far backwards that she couldn't contemplate it. And in hearing what you said, Now, I don't know how but I just had this really strange juxtaposition of stories in my own mind that go together, I'll explain them. I don't know why I'm thinking of this. But I'm going back like 20 years to like when I was a college student, and I skipped a week of class to fly to New Orleans, and I went for Mardi Gras for a week, which is like, totally uncharacteristic of me. But I did it, it was a great time with friends. And I remember this, I have never been in the south. This was basically the only time in my life I'd never been there on just for Mardi Gras. And one of the afternoons I was out with Mardi Gras is the kind of event you just kind of become friends with whoever's around you and start drinking and having a good time and talking. And so I'm out on the street, just kind of like sitting on sofas, and talking to all the random people having a good time drinking beer, whatever's around and this old man is old, I'll say he's old white man, because this, this indicates where the store is going. This old white man walks down the street just staring at us, and kind of walks close to me. And he almost has tears in his eyes. And he said, I can't believe that this is actually happening. I can't believe that I'm seeing young white and black men. Outside casually drinking and having a good time and being friendly with each other. I just, I can't believe this is taking place on the street. And that stood out for me so much, because I I'm not from that era, I've learned about it. But that's not the culture in history I've grown up in and was just a very powerful moment. And I want to juxtapose that with my memory of going to the farmers market in kandawgyi, Lake Myanmar. And I'm at this farmers market where it's just like it's probably a B rated Farmers Market anywhere in the world, but it's you know, it just has, but it's pretty cool. It has the you know, it has like the, the the roasted coffee and the guy who makes his own ice pops and can bukchon like, of course, all of that, you know, and again, it's oil and then of course what you need every farmers market just the the fresh herbs and vegetables and fruits and everything. And everyone's just kind of going that you know, Burmese and foreigners and they're just filling their baskets and everything else. And I I've never made this connection till now. But I mean, I almost had tears in my eyes when I was there. So it's like, I cannot believe like the the history of this place of both experience and friends and reading. And like a sunny day, we're just in a farmers market just with like, everyone's just like bringing their passion of what they're making, and everyone benefiting from it. Yeah, as beautiful, beautiful. And just like an all in like, like the old white guy in New Orleans, just having tears in my eyes that I and everyone's just enjoying themselves. It's just one other day. And I'm just like, I can't believe this is happening here. I mean, this seems and I was with friends who were visiting from out of town, and I was trying to explain to them, like, I know you've been to farmers markets before, but like, this is happening here, you know, and this and so like every stage of the transition when those things would happen. I had that context in mind of like, well, this is where it was coming from like, and they've achieved this. And that doesn't mean I wasn't frustrated by all the things that you mentioned, been frustrating in your book, which was the expat experience there. But it was also I understood where it was coming from. And that was a big difference in terms of the friends who were just plopped there and didn't quite have that appreciation of of, of when things not working didn't quite understand where they were coming from and why they weren't working and where they had they had a rose from and now those same friends understand it perfectly like oh my god i was i was not in a country that was just kind of like that. Little bit wild and crazy and chaotic. I was in a country that was having, like, a brief moment in the sun that got stripped away from them. And now everything kind of looks different. When I look back on it,
Jessica 1:20:09
I think I mean, it's how beautiful everyday life is when you are free to enjoy it. And when no one's meddling, you know, with just like a day, it's a simple thing, but it can be so beautiful and peaceful. And I think life is beautiful and peaceful when people are allowed to, you know, leave their lives. But the other thing I would just say go stories, that's beautiful juxtaposition. I think we should never underestimate the pace of change in a generation. So you can be astounded by it was probably half a decade, or, you know, is say, you know, it was the full decade. And that man, you know, it was from his his, you know, childhood to his adulthood. But I hope that the same applies with Myanmar. So young people today can stand around, perhaps, you know, fifth generation technology where they're, you know, sending their ego in or something and say, you know, my parents were having to scrounge for food during the military takeover, and look where we are now, you know, without electronic cars and our civil liberties restored. So I really hope things can go bad, so fast, and they can also improve, you know, I really hope that's the case for me. And I don't feel like you know, you've described that the decades, you know, the experiment with democracy, but I don't call it an experiment with democracy. I still I don't think the Myanmar story is over. And I believe that the people will get there in the end, because they are so determined, because I feel that what's the alternative? You know, the alternative is to live a life of total darkness. And I've heard a number of protesters say this is the last fight. This isn't like, even if we lose, this is the last fight. And I just, I I'm still optimistic for Myanmar's future because I don't think you can, it's so utterly ridiculous. The whole proposition of this, you know, let's have a coup to restore democracy on earth. And I don't think that people are going to swallow it. And I am hoping I'm really hoping that this has turned around and sooner rather than later, because I think men are lines days are numbered, to be honest. And that this, what I hope is that this is what this is, is the end of the military, taking up too much, or taking up too much space in society. And people say, let's clear the decks. You know, I've heard people say, let's clear the decks of the NLD, as well. And let's start again, and, you know, build from the bottom and a society that's inclusive, and we can, you know, we can avoid some of the mistakes of the past. That's, that's what I hope, like, I have days where I feel so despondent about it. But I like to, I'm still optimistic. Are you optimistic?
Host 1:22:54
For the question, you know, it's, um, I haven't been asked that at least not on air. But it's, um, it's a it's a pretty simple question. But my answer is not and maybe somewhat surprising, not not because it's negative. But because I actually don't really think about it. I don't I just think about what I need to do during the day or the week or the different tasks, I think about where does my influence extend? And what is, I think, and I think this is kind of how I came to understand my own role and involvement, which is what everyone had to do inside and outside the country. Even if that involvement was no involvement. Everyone had to go through some period, just determining how do I feel about this? And how do I respond? And what do I do? And I think one of the ways that I organize my own effort around it was that I cannot leave anything on the table, I just can't do that, I just need to, I need to know that I am doing everything I can for people who've done so much for me. And if I'm doing everything that I can, and then I can't do more, and I don't feel guilty. And I feel that, that that however things turn out at least I am doing every single thing in my power, day after day that that can affect things in some small way. And if I'm doing that, that's the most that I can do. And I actually don't think much beyond that. I mean, I think very much in terms of how what what am I doing? Is it the best use of my time? Could I be doing something is there is there something more that I could be doing than this and racking my brain with that? I spend a lot of time with that. But I don't really I just can't maybe it's from my spiritual practice, or, or view of the world. But I just I think that what you do and the effect it has are kind of two different things and that I can't control the effect it has or the effect of what people are doing. But I can control everything that comes into my sphere and just I just don't want to leave anything on the table with what I could be doing. And I just, I just kind of take it one day at a time and I've had I've had those same high days and low days in terms of friends, good news and bad news. National good news and bad news rumors that are that are tantalizing rumors that are terrible. Fine and through at all. It's just kind of like, Okay, what do I got in front of me? And how much can I get through? And how good can I do that job? So I hope that's not an unsatisfying answer.
Jessica 1:25:09
No, no, because we do not know. Like, you can say, I can say, I think democracy is going to be restored. But I don't, I don't actually know that, you know. So it's a choice kind of whether you're optimistic or not, I mean, I like to think the facts inform my choice. But I think you're acknowledging that the future is uncertain.
Host 1:25:30
It's uncertain, and also acknowledging that the way that you study history, the way things turn out are on a dime, you know, anyone, even the casual observer of world war one knows that the events that setting in motion were basically an accident, it was a failed assassination of an Archduke that the driver took took him in the wrong getaway street that had him stuck in traffic next to a sandwich shop where the the filled assassin was sitting right outside and ended up finishing off the assassination. That's what kicked everything off. I mean, if you're looking at like how have and you know, that's not an aberration, when you really start to study how these things happen. They do happen on a dime, and there's things that are unpredictable. And little things end up being the things that turn out. And so those of us that care about this, if we can be involved in those little things that maybe mean something, and maybe they don't, but it's the most that we can do. And as many doors as we can open as many things as we can put out there. You know, who knows one of those things might be the thing that that is able to not be a miracle but but just be the right thing at the right time where the conditions match. And if no one's doing that, as has happened in previous revolutions of 88. And such where where there was just there wasn't the kind of coalition we're seeing now, then, you're you're not really creating those opportunities for yourself.
Jessica 1:26:54
No, I agree. I think it was Margaret Mead, who invented the contraceptive pill who said never underestimate the power of what a group of ordinary citizens can do, you know, in small acts. So I think it's, you know, yes, the, you know, defining moments of history can be, you know, down to individuals, and unfortunately, personalities, you know, that really annoys me. But I think the response to those acts, you know, this quiet persistence that will just not be defeated, and will not go away. Yes, you know, and hope. And I hope that's the situation here, too, that it's just a no, we just don't accept it. And we never will. And, you know, when, when that truth is finally realized by and we see Mike, I mean, when I when he sort of, you know, he's like, Oh, no, it won't be the start of next year. It'll be August next year that we have elections. His I do think he's, he's thinking about, and I don't, I think that there must be some shocked at just how strong the opposition to this has been. Yeah. And maybe maybe he can be he can be pressured into into giving up the game. And in the same way that 10 srei. You know, reportedly, he didn't want to stand trial in, you know, that the International Criminal Court. So he walked away in a way that allowed him to, you know, live out his retirement quietly. And Myanmar, you know, and sort of he didn't get the applause. But I mean, he also, you know, wasn't prosecuted, and he should have been prosecuted, maybe, you know, maybe we can see a similar exit plan for minang. Lang.
Host 1:28:32
Right. So, knowing how things turn out later, it always influences the way you look back and examine how things played out in the past. And we talked about that a bit in the anti Islam, issues that developed in the 2000 10s. In that case, certain things will stand out more than others, some will take more of a background view. It's kind of like this mystery movie with a twist ending where then when you go back and watch what happened, the scenes take on a totally different understanding because you realize how things turned out. And where I'm going with all this is your description of the 2015 election, in your book, you give this insider's view of the kind of fear that was at play six years ago about whether the military would honor the result. And that there was talk even at that time of a possible coup, but there were really few people outside of your circle who were privy to how fragile that moment was, and I think you do a really excellent job of portraying what it was like to live in that moment. And as we know, it turned out very different you right how minimize accepted the democratic process and that was the sign that that is turning the corner. Yeah, yeah. It was amazing. Because I
Jessica 1:29:40
I wrote that and then when I went, you know, after the coup, when I reread it, I thought, my goodness, my goodness. Yeah, she was down my spine sort of thing, because I completely thought that was just yeah,
Host 1:29:54
I felt that way. When I read it. You know, it was like, like, kind of like, what did I just read? All right, this was 2015 Oh, Okay, so, you know, so what was it like for you living through and reporting on a period where you didn't know if certain freedoms would be maintained or taken away?
Jessica 1:30:08
it? Well, I mean, it was frightening. In the lead up to the election, there was a real worry, you know, and that had come from what I never really understood was, you know, management at EPA statement newspaper where I work said that we might, our office might be attacked, and they were stepping up security and they had moved the drums of chemicals. And I was like, I didn't know there were drums of chemicals. And I knew that that the ballot papers were being printed next door. But what I couldn't understand I thought we are the state, like where the state run newspaper who's going to attack us. Okay, I understand if, you know, the Irrawaddy or the democratic voice of Burma, you know, should there be a military coup, but why would we be attacked, so I didn't quite understand who the actors were. And that was in the same way that I didn't understand who was censoring me, like at the state run newspaper, I thought that I didn't expect to be censored, to be honest. And the way that it was done, you know, I called this man, the man in the clouds, because we did not know who he was maybe was. The news editor knew that this is how the Myanmar state operates. And so it was frightening because I didn't have all the information. And I knew I didn't have all the information. And I knew that possibly some things, you know, weren't being conveyed to me. And when I told my former boss at the embassy, I knew that she knew that there was a risk of violence. I mean, people are, you know, Yangon is also quite a rumor mill, because there aren't formal channels of communication, you know, when you haven't had Facebook and things like that. I think they just kind of pop up. And those kinds of networks are quite strong. And so there were all sorts of rumors like, again, as he say, they'd be good news one day, bad news, the next and like the union election commission that say, all I think we might need to delay this incredibly historic election, I don't think we should do it. And it was like, the whole time. You know, the military have a history of overturning election results without getting on face. You know, it was like the nervous group in the lead up to the wedding day, was this gonna happen or not. And that, you know, that that suddenly, they can just pull the rug out from underneath, you know, sorry, that was without any need to explain, but, you know, we're just going back to what we know. And so it was, you know, I was frightened, I was frightened for my safety. And so then when the election day passed, so peacefully, you know, on the whole, and it was just so beautiful. It was a really emotional day, and to have that symbol of, you know, people whose pinkies have been dipped, and people whose paintings have been dipped in purple ink, so that they could only vote once it was like, this is a robust, transparent democracy, and for many people the first time that they'd ever voted, but it was even, you know, touch and go, because the official results again, they weren't announced, I think, three weeks after the the day of the vote. And so there was still that time of anticipation is it's going to be undone is it's going to be undone, and then everyone just collectively exhaled five years past, you know, and some serious government being in control, things actually slow down. It's a bit disappointing. But good, you know, on the whole good memories, you know, no longer as newsworthy for all the wrong reasons. And then for February one, suddenly, what back to a coup was the most shocking, the most shocking piece of news, you know, that I've that I have ever been struck by? I just didn't believe it. I just I thought it was rumors. I just I couldn't believe it. I didn't want to believe it. Let alone how does how the Burmese people feel. Absolutely, you know, torn to pieces.
Host 1:33:52
Were you fearing that at all in the run up was totally off the radar to you. And it happened?
Jessica 1:33:58
Yes, it was. It was I hadn't even heard the rumblings. You know, I mean, I was working on finishing my book and sort of doing that every day. And I've recently gone back to work for maternity leave. And I wasn't I didn't have my finger on the pulse in Yemen. I didn't think I had to, you know, so those those I hadn't, I hadn't heard the rumors. And so I mean, I heard before it happened, I did hear that as things were getting serious. And so I heard prior to every one, but not long before. And I just thought that it was a hoax or something like a terrible, terrible joke.
Host 1:34:33
So that's interesting. You were fearing and following the possibility of a 2015 coup, which didn't turn out and you were off the radar and not paying attention to a 2021 coup that did happen. Yes,
Jessica 1:34:45
yes. Yes. Because I am a trusting person. And I didn't. I didn't actually comprehend the possibility. Which I guess is a bit silly really because you know, the animals capacity surprise is, is just limitless. But I just didn't, I thought, I really thought the big one was 2015. And I thought after five years of getting used to it, when you know, I'm saying Suchi had not pushed her agenda, she, you know, the military still had their their 25% of seats, and I thought she'd done a pretty good job, perhaps, of accommodating them. So it was, you know, quite remarkable that this, you know, tantrum occurred to me. Now, you know, of course, with the benefit of hindsight, yes, I can see why, perhaps, you know, I'm Suchi has walked a tightrope for so many years, and I didn't fully appreciate, you know, just how, what an incredible path that was to take for her, she would have known all along, I think, how fragile her situation was, I'd love to know how surprised she was by this to identify herself back under house arrest, she find it inevitable. I don't know.
Host 1:35:57
Yeah. So since the coup broke, then what has surprised you most about what we've been seeing in the way that the people have responded?
Jessica 1:36:06
Well, they, the people, the way that the people have responded has been incredible. And that is because the military is behaving as though they're subhuman. And they are from I talked to, you know, I have Burmese friends in Australia, who were really, really close to events. And they, you know, it's all this is all very upsetting. I have a friend whose father is, you know, in a 10 foot prison cell, and he's in his 80s. And she said to me these days, you know, they are worse than dogs. And they are worse than they were the first time but brutality, their imagination, you know, to call, you know, I've heard doctors ask around your program, and I've heard it before how they will call up a doctor and say, I have COVID, can you please come to my house and treat me and the doctor turns out, and they're then arrested and tortured and put into prison. That's sort of that evil, evil imagination to be even worse than the brutality the first time that I think there was some kind of ground rules, in a way, like, while I'm not I mean, it was extraordinary, the stuff they did, but that's in 2021, they have an even greater propensity, like we're living through a pandemic, that they can commit these acts that blows my mind and makes me so distressed. Children, you know, four year old children being in prison, just they have no, you know, I honestly, I don't count them as humans. And they have, they should know better, they have seen better, you know, the country can be better, and everyone can enjoy, you know, the benefits of democracy and being able to do business and simple things like that. So and then the sense that the Myanmar people are still still going out on the streets and resisting and they're taking up arms, my goodness, what would I've asked myself, What would I do, and I thought I would probably hide in my apartment under a bed. Because there is a real risk of death or something worse than death, the torture that they do, you know, this journey that the American Burmese, the journalist that was tortured, he got out because they found out he had an American passport. The stuff he has described here, in his limited time, is, you know, this is like worse than A Clockwork Orange sort of thing. I just, I can't fathom it. And if anyone has any answers, even how to reconcile in your mind that it exists, I feel that I need some help with that, because it's just, it's just awful. So that, for me has been the most surprising thing I thought they might be, I don't know, like, more better organized, and, and less brutal. So I just, you know, the people in Myanmar people, people in Australia also worried about the consequences. They say, Jess, can you say this, because I'm worried about what they might do to my family, and even you know, to the tentacles reach to Australia, and they may do? So, you know, I find I find the people amazingly brave, and they will forever have my respect no matter what happens.
Host 1:39:15
Yeah, I mean, I think it's really a confrontation with pure evil and ways that you are never quite prepared until you meet it. And I think that it's also a journey of acceptance of the depths of evil that they are so that one is not continually being shocked and horrified of how could they but you there's some kind of understanding or acceptance of how that that just a cold detached acceptance that one is facing evil in the world. And this is not this is something that many people can go through their lives never having to face in different areas. It was something that everyone faced to some degree but as the world has gotten more civilized, I think that you can live lives in certain places where you don't Don't face this to the same extent. But it's a shock to the system to see just a confrontation with evil and then inside oneself who holds on to certain ideals of humanity and, and values and ways of living, that then have to be confronted and decide how, how do I hold? To what extent do I hold on to these values while also confronting an absolute Manifestation of Evil in front of me, and that is also one of the most important things to continue to get the word out to people outside of me and Maher that this is not new, it's nuanced. This this is, is evil. And how would you respond if you were faced with these situations? You know, you describe the doctor Sasa referencing the patient, the army pretending to be patients and bringing out underground doctors, perhaps even worse thing that they've started to do is and there's evidence of this intentionally taking positive infected COVID patients, bringing them into cluster areas, and intentionally infecting entire areas. So I don't know of any country in the world since the pandemic broke, where they're not just being negligent or or caught unawares, or whatever else, but they're actually actually actively taking steps to encourage the spread to greater and greater amounts. And so, you know, this is just to say it simply and to repeat it, again, this is a manifestation of evil happening in the world that one has to confront, and you actually have to confront it, whether you're in Myanmar or outside, whether you're there, you have to confront it in pretty egregious ways, because it can affect every aspect of what you're doing with your life. But if you're outside of the country involved in any way, or carry in any way, it still is a reorientation of how do I how do I accept this for what it is? And what do I do in return, and those that is a kind of crisis, that you don't really know who you are, or what you're capable of, or how you feel when tested until you're thrown into that kind of situation to have to respond to?
Jessica 1:42:08
And I've never understood how you can have these two types of people, you know, in the one geographic area. So you have these uncouth brutes who have no humanity. And then you have some of the most gentle people in the world. Like, you know, Burmese people that don't carry knives or guns, they don't curse, you know, they don't raise your voices, they there is a beautiful gentleness to Burmese people. They are, you know, not materialistic or greedy. And it's so I always wonder, like, on a practical level, I mean, they, you know, many people say the military have brainwashed, and they keep them in compounds. So it's they're almost like lab rats or something. I mean, you can hear my hatred, the hatred in my voice for these people. But I also feel you feel like, they must be a tiny minority of this, you don't get you're not born in Myanmar, and grow up becoming an asshole, you know, like, typically, you kind of beautiful person because society, you know, the things we talked about before this, this social contract and the Buddhist values and those kinds of things. So how do you even get this other class of people, you know, I guess you'd have to seal them off. But then they have wives who come they must come from outside? And how do they reconcile themselves to living it? It must be like I saw a clip, on Tick Tock of it was a mess dance party, and it was like the first month, but it was, you know, things have turned bloody quickly. And it had been a shocking week of violence and murder. And it was all these military guys in their uniform drink drinking. And dancing to there was like a DJ, it was like a dance party. And I was like, You are dancing on the grave of innocent people and all the people that you're going to murder? And how, how do you smile? You know? Yes, it's a drunken smile, and I bet they need to drink to get to sleep. But don't you find it extraordinary? That, you know, like, there is, you know, there are different different kinds of societies like Vietnam, you've got to be pretty street smart. I think you know what I mean? Like, and if you're true, trusting you might get taken advantage of that ninja is not a society like that. How do you have such brutality? You know, the good and the bad? Could they be further apart? I don't think so.
Host 1:44:26
That's true. And I think, to me one of those answers, will you talk about some of the conditions in your response in your comments, but to me a big one a psychological one is I just think that there has been enormous repression and suppression inside the mind to to survive as a survival mechanism to be able to get through the day. And I think that this suppression, this repression, the lid is off right now. You know, the lid is just off and what we're seeing and I one of the things that really impressed me from the start, and was was was something that stood out, which I don't think would have stood out for anyone that didn't have a very close familiarity with with Burmese society and Burmese people was, how many friends of mine, were simply saying, some version of I'm not okay. Like I'm upset. And that, you know, for people who don't know me and Mar that would might be like the understatement of the decade of like, a coup just took away all my freedoms and life is now completely uncertain. And because of this, I don't feel okay, like this, this might be like, nothing stands out. But for a society where like, you just simply don't hear this, I don't know if you know, the expression on our body, where you don't really want to infringe on other people or bother people were upset them in some way and, you know, have your problems be a burden on anyone else. And part of that burden is not really admitting a mental state or a feeling that is not pleasant to not want to have that impact others and suddenly, there's this, this outpourings of, I'm not okay, and different versions of I'm not okay, except by what's happening. And that was an early indication of the tremors that were coming that we are now possibly going to see an opening and dialogue and conversation that has never taken place before that could this could be a watershed after the I'm not okay is and, of course that's happened to varying extents of you know, looking at the especially the young generation z exploring the various extents of the privilege that have been Bomar or Buddhists that other ethnicities didn't have. And we've seen an incredible extent of that those kinds of conversations and reflections starting to take place. And there have been other ways that's happened as well. But I think it's really the lid off to be able to contemplate what it means to admit you don't feel okay and to feel free in saying that. And it's so ironic because when you talk about a Buddhist society, the first noble truth of the Buddha is that there is suffering, suffering exists, acknowledging you cannot make progress in transcending and letting go of suffering until you come in contact with the depth of all the manifestations of how that suffering takes place. And so saying, I'm not okay is actually, you know, very in line with the first noble truth of the Buddha that you are acknowledging that suffering exists, but for that, for whatever reason of military and society and everything else, just that simple fact of saying publicly, well, I'm not really okay. in this situation. That is something that really doesn't happen in normal society interactions.
Jessica 1:47:31
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. Absolutely. an outpouring is definitely the right word. And I feel that people people's relationship with democracy is like, it is it is, it's almost tangible. Like, you cannot be took this from us. And it belongs to us, the people and we want it back. And I feel like Had it been, I think, you know, the military mistake, had there been a coup in 2015. I think the world would have gone. You know what, that was an experiment. It was an experiment, and I'm so sorry, for Myanmar. They lasted too long, and you can't put the genie back in the bottle. And I feel, you know, people, young people, they've grown up half their life with democracy. Yeah. And I just don't think I don't think you can get away with that in 2021. anymore. Like, you know, no one knows full well, most countries are democratic, even, you know, in the rest of Asia, there might be variations of democracy. But, you know, they certainly have more freedoms than than what what the military, they they've overstepped the mark, you know, and I mean, it's ludicrous, isn't it? What they're what they're trying to impose. So I think that they strategy is just going to backfire? Because, yeah, had it been five years like short, short, sharp, okay, going back to what everybody knows. But this time around, it's too cheeky? Yeah.
Host 1:48:55
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Then, I mentioned on your case, you're following the developments since the coup, not only what's happening, but also the way it's being reported. And so as someone who not just lived in the country, but also reported on it, what do you feel has been missing, missing in the coverage of how it's being explained to the outside world?
Jessica 1:49:16
Well, I mean, I guess my my first point would be is what's missing? Well, the journalists are missing. So they all all the junk, all the foreign journalists have left. And I'm not saying in any way is that the foreign journalists, it's just more people on the ground to tell their stories. So they've all gone. I was surprised like I you know, and I can't if I know when I was talking to a journalist on Facebook last night, we both feel frustrated, we cannot go there and report. So German speakers, they cannot go there and report for you know, I tried to pitch a story about COVID as I mentioned to you to Nick and they said well, you're not there. It'd be second hand information. And that's, that's completely as it should be. So there's the danger. You I'd like I mean, and also, you know, they've closed like mizzima, like all of them are now illegal entities. Yeah. So there is hardly any journalism ticked almost to the point that there is none. And the chilling of you know, poor Danny Fenster, just trying to leave Myanmar to get back home to his family and he's in prison. That chilling effect on there are a couple of journalists in but it's all no one has a byline anymore, Burmese or otherwise. And it is, it is very frightening to my goodness, I do not have the courage to still be a journalist in Myanmar. And I know photographers are still out there on the streets. But I've also equally seen photo I saw journalists in Flak Jacket weave media across his back, and he was wearing, you know, a hard helmet, and he was being led away in handcuffs by two policemen to event. So gentlemen, journalism is a crime in the military, even though we know that journalism is not a crime. So it's a blackout. It's absolutely a blackout. And to the extent that, you know, foreign media can get stories like I've seen the ABC, they're sort of relying, it's hard to verify much of the information. And to be honest, you wouldn't want to some of this information that's coming out. And it is. So what's happening is so distressing. I know, when I did my book launch, and I spoke about COVID, I admitted a couple of details that I felt the audience just couldn't stomach and I couldn't ask them to stomach when they they weren't prepared, they hadn't walked in for them to be debrief, they came to a book launch, you know, but I think there's a certain amount that we're not hearing because it is not fit for public consumption, to be honest. So I think you and I, we still have friends there. And you know, you can be moved to tears by what you're told in an informal way. But I think a lot of it is just, it can it can scarcely be repeated. And it should be repeated, you know, at the International Criminal Court. It's that kind of stuff. What they do to children, I, you know, I get very upset just saying, you know, there was the the pregnant woman that was beaten up the medics that were beat not the people being thrown off their balconies. And this is it's real tip of the iceberg stuff, isn't it? So I don't some people have been like on me, and that's not getting enough attention. I, I feel at least in the beginning, that it did, and, and that the world is enchanted by me and Matt, and he's deeply distressed, let's say comparative to the airtime that somewhere like Ethiopia gets, you know, because it has people like unsung Suchi, who, you know, there's a romance associated with her. So, you know, I don't have I didn't have any issue in terms of the way that it's been construed or anything like that. But the logistical, practical aspects of even getting stories out, you know, there was the CNN crew, and they spoke to people and those people were then arrested. So, you know, it was hard getting people to trust me in Myanmar. And I sort of touched on that in the book that people weren't used to, you know, there's the joke about the dentist, why the Burmese man goes to the dentist in Thailand, and the dentist says, Don't you have dentist in Myanmar? And he says yes, but no one opens their mouth in Myanmar. So, you know, overcoming that when I was there, in such a positive time, I couldn't always get people to speak to me and open up now, you know, the consequences of potentially death? So I'm so sad that, you know, I'm not even I'm not, I'm not understanding the full extent of what's going on. So and not, neither is the world because they you know, they're trying to do a blackout. I don't think they can quite do the internet blank blackout that they wish for. Because, you know, people understand VPN, and that kind of thing. And I don't I'm not even sure if that will be their strategy, because you just can't close countries off in the way that you used to, although China has the Great Wall, doesn't it? But yeah, it's we're just this is the most fundamental challenge to journalism is just getting the stories out and getting those stories told. And, you know, the recovery of the generation, like the 88 generation, we're processing what happened to them. And this even just in six months, the trauma is going to be immense. And the telling of the telling will need to be told in future times, but Gosh, we're so not even at that point. How are we?
Host 1:54:25
So given those challenges, how do we continue to find a way to inform people what's actually happening? You know, I'm thinking also back on the earlier protest, one of the things that made this so different, is that an 88 and even though seven, there could be, you know, 100 students or 88, say because they were leading the protests or 100 monks in 2007, who overnight would disappear and no one would know what happened. You might find out a few weeks or a few years later, you hear stories of you know, All of a sudden student bodies washing up on Irrawaddy, and some people just noticing all the bodies coming and room are starting to spread that way or a certain monastery that suddenly the the monks all disappear and there's blood stains everywhere. It's terrible, terrible stories. But at that time, there wasn't a way to be able to get these out because there wasn't social media and there wasn't a background of independent journalism. So now in this complex environment where there is social media, and there are many new ways of getting stories out and getting information, and yet, as you said, Every formally journalistic publication that was in Myanmar is now illegal, except for the state organs. How? How do you navigate through this? How is it because it's so important to be able to have news and information and context and updates about what's happening? So how can that happen going forward?
Jessica 1:55:54
It's tricky. tricky, tricky is an understatement, isn't it? I think I see pretty incredible coordination among the the Burmese diaspora, you know, reporting from, you know, undisclosed locations, and some disclosed locations. And really, and I know, like the the Burmese community, I've been so impressed with the level of their level of organization. And they really, they are, they're doing concrete things like they're lobbying so that the Australian government provides COVID vaccines. There. And there are, you know, of course, there's the national unity government, who are also trying to coordinate things. And so and they're really leveraging the media as well, as much as they can, again, we have that problem is, you know, you're not on the ground. So that, you know, that has to be a component of journalism. But, you know, people still speak at great risk. And I think that's where human beings like we need, when we're suffering, we need people to know. And so I think even even at the risk of death, people will continue, you can't extinguish that determination to do that among, among the brightest of people. So we do have technology by our size. And, you know, I was relishing the fact that, you know, the military tried to turn off the internet, and they just couldn't, and it was the sort of the sporadic cut outs and there's, you know, there's all these kinds of platforms, you know, like signal and things like that, that just can't be intercepted. So this, these are tools that they didn't have in ADH. And things like signal are wonderful, because it allows, you know, I mean, facebook, facebook is frightening, like, I have a friend in Australia who fled with his Burmese wife, and he was contacted via Facebook Messenger, by the military saying, Where are you, we are coming for you, like, tell us where you are at like, as if and we're coming for you. And even if it was only, you know, empty threats, this is how you know, then then leveraging Facebook. It was like, you know, the information minister always, you know, he was the always using his Facebook page to announce things. And he became, you know, that the Minister of Facebook. But I think with some of these, these technology tools are very powerful. And, again, you know, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, people have mobile phones. So some of the old tactics that the military used are not going to work, they're not going to fly. And so they're going to have to, and I think that's, there's so it's so it's saying, Okay, let's get more let's think of the most disgusting thing we can do. And we'll do it. And we'll just scare people into submission. But again, I just don't think the human spirit will be bound down. And but how many people have to die before they realize that? You know? So I think journalism, it will be its crude. Plus, you know, we're in a pandemic, I mean, these twin crises. I mean, again, I think partly the rate why this big long delay, and I think the military, for all conditions are actually write for a coup, we don't have all these international observers here, nor can they come, they will come, you know. So it's this terrible, terrible situation. So it's making you know, journalism in a pandemic is not safe. Journalism isn't safe at the best of times in Denmark, and together a pandemic, still be standing kind of thing it is, it is that bad. Nonetheless, I still think enough stories will come out me and my wife being forgotten. And as the protesters say, it won't be forgiven. So I don't worry that there'll be a total blackout and the stories coming out is so powerful, you don't need to hear many I think even as a casual observer, to be invested in in what happens and then I think people like you and I like my I'm always sort of slightly uncomfortable. I am not very nice. And I shouldn't you know, how much should I be talking about a country that isn't my own? You know, but number of my friends have said you could do the story like just maybe could you do this story because I do not want to do a story because I have family in your mouth. So I think We also have a role to play you know, in a small way things that you're doing as well. You know, having these discussions that are so it's was so enlightening to hear Dr. Sasa speak in such detail is really moving as well. So we just have to keep up and never never give up. easy for me to say, isn't it for my comfortable Sydney office?
Host 2:00:19
Yeah, well, I mean, in your comfortable Sydney office, you have a freedom of expression that they don't have half a world away. And that's something we can never forget. And I think in when looking at advocacy, I think it's very important to stare the white savior complex in its face and know what it is. And I think, you know, there are ways of advocacy and support that don't fall into that I was talking with this, the subjects with someone just the other day and mentioning the two easy things that anyone can do. Number one, ask to when speaking to a Burmese friend that's over there, or someone whose family is How are you feeling? How are you doing? What do you need? What's going on? It's as simple as that. It's just asking the question and listening not, why don't you do this? or What happened? You know, yeah, what if you did it this way? or Why are you so upset about this thing? Or why not just you know, that that's just garbage? Throw it out? That's not that kind of pontificating is not from a safe from a place of safety and comfort. That's not something that anyone needs. But number one saying, How are you doing? How are you feeling? How can I help what's going on, that is a great way of advocacy, that is a great thing that anyone can do that is immediately supportive. And something that when I asked Burmese people in the country to come on my platform, what's needed, that's one of the number one thing said it's so easy, it's almost counterintuitive how, how much that's actually important and helps at the time. The second thing is simply saying, Hey, I'm a safe person, I'm a friend, I'm here, when you need to talk, just let the person know that you you are someone that can be that they can talk to you on a good day on a bad day about what's going on about something trivial, but just simply I'm here to talk, I'm here to listen, I'm here in whatever capacity, and these are ways that we can use our freedom and our safety and our advocacy, that, that take advantage of where we are, who we are and our role. And of course, as you mentioned, there are certain kinds of subjects and things that we we are not as at risk as someone else who could do them. And, and I in the same happens to me quite a bit of people come in with either essays or stories or interviews or something of of saying this is what's going on, but I can't touch this can from your place of freedom and safety. Can Can you touch it? And then yes, I can touch it. But I'm not going to touch it by saying, Hey, here's what I think about it. And here's my take, and here's my view. But yeah, okay, let's see what the story is. And let's let's use whatever platform This is to be able to have others be able to step up and use it and speak and talk and explore and then get that out to as many people as possible. So it's those voices that are that are going and being shared and understood. Yep.
Jessica 2:03:03
Yeah. And yeah, we can just simply provide the avenue that allows them to speak so voices in their own words, not with as you say, editorializing, or whatever. I mean, I like to sign off many of my conversations with just I'm thinking of you, because we are thinking of the people and, you know, I, you know, you are not forgotten, sort of, because I think sometimes, you know, I know, most people feel very disappointed with the way that the world has responded or, you know, it's like a response to what to what's happening. So just, you know, I'm thinking of you, is, and I am. So that's something that I, you know, I feel I can say as well.
Host 2:03:43
Yeah, and it really just comes down to being curious and caring and asking questions. And as I mentioned, at the beginning of this, I think everyone, no matter who you were, where you were, what your background was, everyone kind of had to reorient themselves towards, okay, who am I in this? What's my role? How do I respond? What What am I doing? And I think one of the early things that I learned was, just because I'm not there, I have no role in even beginning to understand how it feels, and nor should I ignore Kanye, but what I can do is ask people about their realities, ask them what they're dealing with. And the more that I find out what they're trying to do, how they're making sense of it, what, what, how they're configuring their own work, and where they're having problems or coming up short, then that's a place where one is able to see Oh, okay, well, there's there's this gap here, there's this thing that's on happening, and is that something I can do? Or do I know someone who can do it? Or do I know someone who knows someone that can step in? Or can I do I have a substitute of something that can can help in some kind of way? And, you know, that's, that's something I've learned, I've learned and tried to do early on is just being able to ask questions and find out, do I have resources or no of resources that fit in what they're trying to do? Because I I'm in no place to advise or judge what those actions are rather just to ask and be able to be supportive in what they feel they need to do at this moment to for their safety and freedom.
Jessica 2:05:16
Yeah, I think it's also amazing, like how polite again, you know, this is beautiful Burmese people, like, I'll post something on Facebook, you know, I'll say I spoke. So today, he's only, you know, to the podcast, and I spoke about the situation Myanmar, and people will somehow find the time to say thank you, to me to doing that. So it's like, they're encouraging me, you know, I should be encouraging them, like, keep going, like, you're not forgotten, but they're the ones encouraging me. You know, I have a friend who's an MP in Sydney, and he on Sunday, you know, said it's the 33rd anniversary of the, the agent, the resistance in 1998. And I'll be attending the zoom conversation. And the number of people that, you know, chimed in with comments saying, Thank you, sir. Thank you for thinking of me, I'm not, you know, you don't have to do this type of thing. It's just beautiful. Like, it's this, again, this spirit of, you know, compassion, despite the circumstances that they face, somehow, they still have the generous generosity to thank someone else for caring, you know, so that, yeah, I just I'm often touched by that. And it's not, you know, it was Jamie's page, my page. But so, you know, obviously, I have a lot of friends who used to live in Myanmar. And it's an outpouring of gratitude for very simple expressions, you know, posting a photo of a memory of Myanmar and expressing their sadness. I, I find it quite extraordinary, you know, I think I would be tied up with facing the day to day, but then people are not. So I think it's just wonderful, you know, on top of everything else they're facing.
Host 2:06:49
Yeah, yeah. Well, I, you were talking before about the the way that this was being reported, and before we were going back to just the foreign journalists that were in the country, their relationship with local journalists. And so the last question I want to ask is about this topic. And I think that, especially at this time, there's been quite a bit of scrutiny about who is telling what stories and ownership of, of voice and of expression and I think the two fields this has come out most in has been Burma, steady scholarship, and journalism, and just the need and the importance of having authentic local voices that are able to tell their own story. And this came up more than ever in, as you reference the CN ns course awards visit. So and then I guess I should say, as well, this is balanced with the concern that you mentioned that there are no buy lines anymore. And that even if someone is not getting credit for what they're doing, because they can't out of danger there, there's there's a risk in being involved at any level that that they themselves that they're in the country or their family that's there that as important as it is to have these local voices that there's also extraordinary danger attached to that. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this overall issue of the need for greater representation of local voices in journalism at this time?
Jessica 2:08:14
Well, it's extremely, it's extremely difficult, because the danger, like the voice needs to be downloaded for it to be safe. And I think the safety of the source has to be paramount, you know, above everything. So for example, I mentioned the friend whose father is in prison and I wanted before my my book launch was delayed because of COVID-19 lockdowns, I wanted to tell her story. So I interviewed her. And she came back and said, I can't like I can't, I'm trying to get my father out of this 10 foot cell. And if you identify me in any way that could jeopardize, you know him. And of course, of course, I understand. So I had to remove all the, for me all the color, you know, as we talk about as journalists of the story, that really it made it much less powerful because I couldn't mentioned, you know, the age of her father, you know, his his story as an individual is very powerful. I'm trying to tell you this without telling you who he is. Right. So do you see the dilemma? I mean, now, I think I don't think we're in a time for literature, or even anything like this is a time for survival. And I for one, I know voice is important. I know that that I think that this is where really bottom of the pyramid, like let's keep people alive, let's keep them the journalists are like there are so many journalists in pre Burmese journalists in prison and who have been murdered. If we can get out the most basic elements of a story. That to me is success and actually quite remarkable. In terms of voices like no no barn lines, you can you can hardly disclose the location because Also that story comes out who's coming next the military. So there are all these difficulties. So if you report on COVID, you know, there's clinics are being set up by, you know, private hospitals or whatever. But if you disclose these the military to try and say do vaccinations, the military will come and open fire. So it's a real, but you know, to be honest, doing principles of journalism and authenticity and stuff like that just have to take a backseat to me, to me at the moment. That's my personal opinion. And I'm not sure you know, academics, I hope, I hope they're not getting themselves tied up in knots over things that Burmese people don't have the time to consider while they're engaged in this, you know, death life or death battle. is all I would say on the topic. Does that make sense?
Host 2:10:48
Yeah. Yeah, no, it absolutely does. It's, it's just such a difficult fraught time where even normal and mundane decisions have to be considered completely differently. So yeah, yeah. So with that, I've really enjoyed talking to you these two hours have absolutely flown by. Before we close, is there anything else you wanted to touch upon that any questions in the dress?
Jessica 2:11:11
No, I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. It's been wonderful. And I think cathartic, in a way as well to speak, you know, you're so knowledgeable, you know, Myanmar, you know, deeper than I do. So it's nice to, you know, I don't have I don't have that many people that I can talk to, you know, in this level of detail. So it's been, it's been really nice to be able to do that, and to hear your views as well. And I hope that when I hang up, I don't think of all the things I wish I had said.
Host 2:11:41
Yeah, well, I think one of the things that's fun, for me, at least about this long form style podcast is that it really is done with more of an intention of a mature, informed audience. And I find one of my frustrations with whenever I would read about Myanmar, in the news going back, you know, 1520 years even, is that the the whole origin story kind of had to be told in at least half of whatever the conversation was, and, you know, just the basic contours of history before you can actually get to any kind of real views or anything, because there was so much informing and so I think one of the things I appreciate about this platform, and I hope listeners do as well, is that we're starting off from a different place. So we're not having to go through what happened and when and actually Wait, where is this country located? And, you know, what are the main details of it, but we could actually jump right in to some of the more the more detailed and, and layered conversations we can have from different angles, depending on the guest background and really start to dig in to some of that nuance and trying to understand it at a greater level. So, you know, hopefully, it's as interesting as guests as it is for for the people talking. But you know, the thing about the podcast medium is you, you so rarely hear that feedback. So, so it's always welcome for people listening. But I I'm glad that at least, you enjoy the two hours as well, because I definitely did.
Jessica 2:13:04
I really Hi, thanks for having me. It's been great. Thank you, Joe.
Host 2:13:24
Thank you for taking the time to listen to this show. I understand that this is an enormously difficult time for many people these days, myself included. And just the mere fact of staying informed is helping to keep a focus on this pertinent issue. And the only way that we can do our job of continuing to provide this content at this very critical time is through the support of generous donors, listeners like yourselves. So if you found this episode of value and would like to see more shows like this on the current crisis, please consider making a donation to support our efforts. Either monthly pledges or one time donations are fully appreciated. And all funds go immediately to the production of more episodes like this one. Thank you deeply in advance and best wishes at this time. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. every cent goes immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. Donations go to support such causes as a civil disobedience movement CVM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. Or if you prefer, you can earmark your donation to go directly to the guests you just heard on today's show. In order to facilitate this donation work, we have registered a new nonprofit called better Burma for this express purpose. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is now directed to this fund. Alternatively, You can visit our new better Burma website, which is better Burma one word.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me slash better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and cash app. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to those respective accounts, or email us at info at better burma.org. In all cases, that's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r, bu r Ma. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration. You've been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we'd appreciate it very much. If you could rate review and or share this podcast, every little bit of feedback helps. You can also subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you get your podcasts to make sure you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes. If you can't find our feed on your podcast player, please just let us know and we'll ensure it can be offered there in the future. Also, make sure to check out our website for a list of our complete episodes, including additional text videos and other information available at Insight myanmar.org. And I also invite you to take a look at our new nonprofit organization at better burma.org. There was certainly a lot to talk about in this episode, and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a POST request specific questions and join in on discussions currently going on. On the Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. You're also most welcome to follow our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter accounts by the same name. If you're not on social media, feel free to message us directly at info at Insight myanmar.org. Or if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that form here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible. Currently, our team consists of two sound engineers, Mike pink and Martin combs. There's of course Zack Kessler, content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey helps with that team. And a special Mongolian volunteer who was asked to remain anonymous, says our social media templates. In light of the ongoing crisis in Myanmar, a number of volunteers have stepped in to lend a hand as well. And so we'd like to take this time to appreciate their effort and our time of need. And we're always on the lookout for more volunteers during this critical time. So if you'd like to contribute, definitely let us know. We'd also like to thank everyone who has assisted us in arranging for the guests we've interviewed so far. And of course, we send a big thank you to the guests themselves, for agreeing to come on and share such personal powerful stories. Finally, we're immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We want to remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and don't necessarily reflect the host or other podcast contributors. Please also note that as we are mainly a volunteer team, we do not have the capacity to fact check our guest interviews. By virtue of being invited on our show. There's a trust that they will be truthful and not misrepresent themselves or others. If you have any concerns about the statements made on this or other shows, please contact us this recording is the exclusive right of Insight Myanmar podcast and may not be used without the expressed written permission of the podcast owner, which includes video, audio written transcripts or excerpts of any episodes. Also not meant to be used for commercial purposes. On the other hand, we're very open to collaboration. So if you have a particular idea in mind for sharing any of our podcasts or a podcast related information, please feel free to contact us with your proposal. If you would like to support our mission, we welcome your contribution. During this time of crisis. All donations now go towards supporting the protest movement in Myanmar. Through our new nonprofit that are Burma. You may give by searching better Burma on paypal Venmo cash app, GoFundMe and patreon as well as via credit card at better burma.org slash donation. You can also give right on our Insight Myanmar website is all donations given there are directed towards the same fund. And with that, we're off to work on the next show. So see you next episode. So much